Fight between president Theodore Roosevelt and financier j. P. Morganover the size of corporations and Government Intervention at the turn of the 20th century. I wanted to sort of ask you to paint a picture of j. P. Morgan. Obviously youre telling a story about roosevelt but a large amount of the book is about j. P. Morgan. For a lot of americans hes one of those, i dont mean this in a demeaning way but hes out of an empty household name area will know his name from public institutions, obviously from the banking legacy. They dont know a lot about him. Can you tell us about him and why, what you found so compelling about him as an agent, an actor within this story, this landscape that your drawing. So when i first started looking into this time period , i think i knew a lot more about roosevelt than i did about morgan. As is probably true of most people. And what i realized is i began researching that this was really morgans world, that roosevelt very kind of quickly and abruptly and unwelcome in terms of wall streets point of view , stirred the pot so by the time roosevelt became president , morgan was at the peak of his power. He was the king of wall street, literally called jupiter and zeus. He on the eve of the inauguration of roosevelt as Vice President and mckinley as president , morgan had created the first billiondollar company in the world. Us steel so it still exists today. I was a company that employed more than any other company. Controlled and enormous amount of thesteel production in the country. Was a huge monopoly. And then just a few months into roosevelts presidency in november, morgan created the Second Biggest Company in the world, groveland securities which is the focus of the book and that was a railroad holdingcompany. That was worth about 400 million which would be about 11trillion today. So in less than a year he had created the worlds two Biggest Companies but beyond that, morgan also controlled the flow of capital. Thats really where his power and influence came from. It was wealthy but he wasnt the wealthiest american. He threw his bank, through j. P. Morgan controlled capital from europe and from america, decided where it should go and along with that took seats on a lot of the companies that he was investing in so not only did he have enormous control over kind of the financial spigots but he had a say in how companies all across the country were run. Among those companies were the rail. As i mentioned, are important. Grown rapidly, recklessly. Had gone bankrupt. And caused depressions and at a certain Point Railroad investors were so frustrated that they asked morgan to get more involved in order to protect their own money and that was a process that weve done so forcibly that it became known as morgan is a period that is reorganization when a company goes bankrupt so morgan wouldgo in , fix up a company, a big state move things out for hisinvestors. So by the time roosevelt takes office and morgan is on wall street, they are the two most powerful people and that the two come into conflict. Morgan securities, this is obviously the roosevelt of his first turn, this is an important part of that story but can you tell us from Morgans Point of view or maybe the economys point of view, what was so significant sidetoside. Why was it something that morgan drove towards the wild that somebody like roosevelt might find concern about . Morgan had been involved with the railroads for years. He had a dream of creating a Transportation Company that could span the world. It was in food shipping lines. He had a railroad that was dominant in the northwest. And he was competing with another railroad, also in the northwest. And they both needed a way into chicago which then and now was hugely important industrial and agricultural center. And the fight for the rail line that went into chicago brought morgan and his railroad colleague james hill into conflict with me h herriman was also a railroad magnate. Ultimately, herriman tried to mount a hostile takeover of the company that morgan and hill created so this was something that was a shocking , very shocking because no one ever expected morgan to be challenged and this was a company thathe had worked very hard to build. And when that hostile takeover occurred in the spring of 1901 led to an incredible stock market panic. That left, and you might imagine the smallest investors in the worst shape but it was a very public fight. It was very costly. It was very bitter and the methods were very unusual. It was very hard for an everyday person to not encounter a monopoly of some kind. Oil, salt, lead, paper bonds. They were all monopolies but the railroad monopolies were what worried people the most because everyone was so dependent on them. At the time people were probably more depended on the railroads and their livelihoods and wellbeing could be more determined by a railroad and by the federal government. When morgan created morgan securities, he did it knowing that he could face a legal challenge, but confident that his lawyers could out argue a government lawyer. But also not expecting it to ever come to that. Now, from Roosevelt Point of view hes taking office in september of 1901. 1901. Two months later morgan announces the creation of Northern Securities. Everyone is paying attention to that in part because of what has preceded in the spring, in part because its morgan, and because its a railroad and its the northwest which is an important economic part of the country, developing part of the country. And when roosevelt learns about this, he sends his attorney general, knox, to florida, with a whole bunch of legal papers, tells him not to tell anybody else in the cabinet what hes doing, but you look over and to see if they can make a credible case for charging Northern Securities with violating the sherman antitrust act. So ultimately, they do. But i think what i would just say to step back, roosevelt it was any way an incredible opportunity. The sherman antitrust act had been in place since 1890 but had been in force pretty a radically, pretty ineffectively. Roosevelt was eager to use as much power as executive office and the federal government had, and to expand it. He saw the sherman antitrust act as a great tool. He knew monopolies were a concern of most people. He had sympathies especially for the citizens of the northwest, having lived out there, and he knew that by taking on someone as prominent as morgan that he could make a brand symbolic gesture that would very clearly indicate to people the kind of president he wanted to be. Having done, written a book on roosevelt myself, i know how challenging it can be sometimes to take the figure a lot of people know a lot about, and im sure most of the people in this audience have read multiple books, multiple biographies out there, and he is of course is a very rich character, historical figure so theres a lot to talk about. But it is a challenge when you sit down, and there is similarity with both of our books in that roosevelt is a key figure but theres more that you want to talk about, other stories, and yet you cant help but let it be a little overbearing, in a good way. But the challenge for an author is to find that new story, right, or to find that angle. When you sat down to write a book about roosevelt, how did you approach that . How did you say okay, heres how im going to tell, talk about roosevelt in a fresh way . Yeah. I actually came to roosevelt in morgan anymore roundabout way, maybe. That is, in 2016 when i was thinking about writing a book, i was not sure, first, that is going to write a historical book, and roosevelt was in top of my mind. What i i was interested in and responding to was bernie sanders, believe it or not, remember him . But because it was his talk of a new progressive moment, of reckoning for big business. As a Business Reporter, investigative journalist, those ideas were interesting to me. And then i started to look back, you know, when in American History have we been in a similar situation. You want to know, what can you learn from what is happened before . I kind of worked my way back from the Great Society to roosevelt and the new deal, and ultimately to the square deal and kind of to me why he did was to both set the tone and the terms for the progressive era that ultimately emerged. Didnt last as long as some people might have liked, was incomplete, but it was really the first time when a president stood up for Everyday Americans against some of the Public Interest, broadly speaking, against corporate interest. That to me is what was interesting, but then of course when you get there and you see there is morgan standing there, he immediately commands attention, and its why as i mentioned earlier initially its a book about roosevelt, and morgan as an interesting character. But then the more i thought about it, i realized, it in some ways and in this regard there might not of been a roosevelt and the way we know if there wasnt a morgan in a in a way e know him. The interesting part of roosevelt big roosevelts big and she actually interesting and well known stories was this interaction between them and the ideas they represented, and to have america and the railroads and some of the other railroad magnets also the characters, and as best as i could to kind of layout the landscape and to see just what kind of a country it was that roosevelt was taking command of. I think its interesting you mention sanders. I think its interesting, this is obviously not historically responsible, but to ask what roosevelt think of sanders . Like one of the differences is that roosevelt was not anticapitalists. He wasnt an ideologue. Yet values and ideas but he was not a doctrinaire. In fact, he was very antidoctrinaire. That was one of his strengths. One of the things that you can talk about little bit is what do you think was roosevelts put it into hyper fluid way what you think his theory of capitalism . What was his approach . He took on one of the biggest capitalists of American History. Thats whats so interesting to me. Nuances are always more interesting, and so what i would say is roosevelt believed in big business. He thought it was essential and inevitable, and morgan represented that. But i think beyond that, one way to think about this is what and how was american capitalism in particular going to be defined . That is, you know, america was not a land of monarchs, and yet you could consider in some ways roosevelt, sorry, morgan to be very aristocratic vote in his approach and his sensibilities. Just look at the morgan library, you know . And to think what roosevelt was standing for was kind of an american sense of a democratic capitalism. Morgan, when he spoke, which wasnt that often, but he believed in an organized kind of capitalism. Not a freeforall. He wasnt fighting for competition all the time. Actually he was fighting in many cases to curtail competition in order to increase profits. He believed that america should have an economy that was kind of directed from above, by a few men who he believed we all should trust to do the right thing. What roosevelt believed is that the government had to have a role in that, that it wasnt okay for capitalists to be left alone, that yes, they should do what they are good at, but the government had a role in terms of regulation and supervision, and when that didnt work, litigation. That wasnt the first choice, but i think youre right. Like, roosevelt often said that the actions he took were not revolutionary, they were to prevent anything from happening that was revolutionary. He also wanted to guide capitalism that is just i think i think he did generally believe he represent the Public Interests and those Public Interest had to be defended against the corporate interests, and that the corporate interests were so powerful that had to be the federal government that did this. Again, the residence with today and lets say one might characterize the attitudes of certain business leaders, maybe part of the Tech Industry as an annoying whats best, knowing what the future will hold, and you can understand why critics on both the left and the right today wont accept that and why someone like Elizabeth Warren, but also senator hawley are both fans of the theater roosevelt. Opposite sides of the spectrum but they both respect some version of that story that you just laid out. So that brings us to the Northern Securities case, and i do not want to give away the details of this, it is very well wrought in the book but i do want to ask you why, besides others is important in the biography of morgan, its important in the roosevelt biography. What was the ultimate killer take away for the country of Northern Securities . Why focus on this case, right . What to you makes it stand out as one that is worth a whole book . Yeah. To me this is when roosevelt and morgan came into conflict most directly. And occasionally represented the two different versions of capitalism that we have been talking about, you know, where morgan and his lawyers argued that Northern Securities should be allowed to operate because it was good for the country, it was going to help the country become wealthier, it was going to allow the country to compete in the global marketplace, and that americans should trust morgan, in particular, but also hill and harriman to run it in a way that was best for america and best for consumers. And i think what the government argued, ultimately successively, is that this was too much power to put in three peoples hands, but essentially one persons hands. Because of the nature of the industry and its location and the ultimate plans, and what i think made it so important and symbolic is because, because it was a case they got a lot of attention at the time. It may seem a bit obscure, like you hear antitrust arguments or litigation, and maybe like a few brain cells start to shut down, but, and im a Business Reporter and i say that, but i think its also important to remember that people in america were following this case. They were concerned about the outcome, and millions of people would really be affected by the Supreme Court decision. It was front and center during roosevelts term, and he and knox were very eager to make sure that the case made its way to the Supreme Court and was decided before his first term was over. He presumed the government would win and that this would be a great accomplishment for him when he went into the campaign for presidency in november, and it was. The headlights at the time after the government one, were people will love him for the enemies he made. And also basically the Supreme Court has just like both renominated roosevelt and basically won the election for him. It was very important and in some ways it was symbolic, and i think it was, in terms of its economic impact, kind of more symbolic and a moral conduct, because what it should people. Rather than the immediate economic consequences for people. It was that yes an important law can be enforced, yes, a prominent businessman and a wellknown huge company can be held to account. I have another question or so, but i encourage there are a few questions in the chat box, but i encourage anyone to jump in in the next couple of minutes with questions. So aside from the politics and the impacts this case had on the 1904 election, what do you think it did in terms of roosevelts ideas about capitalism, his ideas about policy . How do you think it shaped him . He had the bulk of his presidency still to go. How did this case is sort of a landmark moment of fact sort of, sort of set the course for him for the rest of his time in the white house . I think this case plus the other major kind of event where morgan and roosevelt interact in the book, which is the coal strike of 1902, which very briefly was promising a real time of kind of despair and hardship for a lot of people in the winter of 1902, and ultimately was settled when roosevelt appealed to morgan for help. And so as sort of an aside, interesting that as they were fighting in the courts they also were able to Work Together to resolve a National Crisis in the middle of it. Something also sort of hard to imagine happening today, but i think the combination of being able to settle the strike, the first time a president really try to mediate between again the interest of the public and companies, the coal mines, and the victory in Northern Securities gave us certain momentum to a progressive agenda. In his second term he did push for more regulations, and then later we know as a candidate for the Progressive Party he talked a lot about policies that would be very familiar to the bernie brose and Elizabeth Warren and are talked about today, universal healthcare, a tax on the wealthy come some sort of women wage an eight hour workday and just more protection for workers. So my sense is that these two events, the case and the coal strike, were crucial to roosevelt both creating and then taking advantage of the momentum in america. So before return to questions i just want to encourage everybody, i know everyone will go out and buy copies, multiple copies of the book. I will say this because i was a decision about my own books and i dont know how susan feels about it, but if you buy buy ak complete a review on amazon. Thank you. Is incredibly important and it is often a little awkward to ask people to do that so i will do it for her. Let me go to questions here. The first question, how long did it take you to write the Book Research and everything . Yeah, so i started researching it in 2016. The book came out in may of 2020, and i worked basically every morning, weekend, and all my vacation, including three months on book leave from my day job as a magazine writer, lots of stolen hours from my employer you know, and lots of like wonderful editing and other health from bloomsbury. Overall, the Research Part of that was an intensive year and a half, and then of course the kind of continued to research where i found gaps and holes as i was writing. It was a fouryear project. I know how sounds familiar, im sure. If youre committed to something, you can make it wo. Yes. Chuck asks, how could a railroad of fact, to some degree, control so many peoples lives . Yeah, interesting. In terms of the railroads that made up Northern Securities, what i can say is that railroads were the only means of transport, so every businessperson and farmer needed to get reasonable rates from a railroad in order to have a thriving business. Sometimes they were able to do that and sometimes the Bigger Companies got our favorable rates. There was a concern that the railroads were helping, and sometimes corrupting business. There was a very close relationship there, and the smaller farmers and Business People were left out of that. More generally i would say about the railroads, as they were being built, you know, a railroad could bring with it incredible prosperity. And if you live in a place or were thinking about moving to a place that was bypassed by a railroad, your town could become more impoverished. Railroads really alters the geography of opportunity, and it was mostly at the convenience and by the design of the railroad builders. So i think those of the ways, most of the ways in which they kind of controlled both in very overt in more subtle ways Many Americans lives. Okay, that makes sense. We have time for a couple more questions. One that sort of is paralleled to your store but maybe just some thoughts on it, chris asks, how did the Pragmatic School of philosophy dominate the late 19th century influence the ideological, not ideological policies of you to roosevelt . He was a big reader and conversant in so many i think people who dont know, or most people here do, know this, that he was very conversant with the literature and ideas out there. Is that something that you came across, any interaction with pragmatism with a velocity that might have influenced them . Thats a really interesting question. Not directly but if you think you are right to say that it was, you know, it was almost innate in him. It was the way that we could see him govern and lead it most of his positions before he became president , and then definitely as president. He was always very careful to balance and to try to get americans to see, i think, what may be his like the most ultimately pragmatic idea of all, which is that if you are rich you are not going to ultimately feel comfortable and enjoy being an american and less most of the other people in the country are doing well also. Just the very notion that we as americans are kind of a common body and that we do well or we suffer together. I know its both kind of like a beautiful idea but also ultimately pragmatic. We all have to Work Together. I think thats what made him intriguing, effective in some ways, and probably frustrating to the more progressive. And youre right, radical people that always wanted him to do more and push harder. Absolutely. The last question, because we want to leave time for you to roosevelt himself to speak, this comes from lp and asks, this is a good question, a parlor game question. But what experience influenced trc leadership more, his time in new york or his time out west in the badlands, you know, those are two very different types of areas. I know i have my answer but what do you think . I want to hear your answer. Ill give my first. Im going to say for the purposes and almost the confines of my book that the new york city experience was probably more relevant, because he was both forced in part by his fathers kind of maniacal benevolence come his own inclination to see in new york that people like morgan could avoid. And then i think as police commissioner, even in this kind of short and failed run as mayor, he was acquainted with a new york that many wealthy privileged new yorkers were not. And at the same time equally familiar with wall street, right . And friendly with some of the lawyers and the kind of people circling wall street, if not morgan himself. But what is your answer, clay . Mine is a total dodge. I think, well, i mean, theres a binary between the two of them. I dont think that roosevelt would even roosevelt if he didnt have both of those experiences, and i think his way of understanding new york, sort of similar to what you said, his way of understanding new york and moving around in urban politics was influenced by his time at west, or just his ability to inhabit what we might call the western mind, and likewise, his approach to the west and western politics was informed by his understanding of urbanization, and you see that it is conservation politics. You see that in i think all of that forms the basis of some of his Foreign Policy views. But it you cant really separate the two but, in fact, check the two in dialogue in forming the theater roosevelt we came to know and love. The president s come available in paperback, hardcover and ebook from Public Affairs presents biographies of every president inspired by conversations with no historians about the leadership skills that make for successful presidency as americans go to the polls next month to decide who should lead our country. This collection offers perspective into the lies and events that forged each president s leadership Style Picture and more about our president and the most feature to stories, visit cspan. Org the president in order your copy today wherever books are sold. You are watching booktv on cspan2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Booktv, television for serious readers. Hey, everyone. This is jeff martin with magic city books. Thrilled have you back of for ongoing virtual offices which we been doing since april, two to three times a week which is been a great way to stay connected to you, our customers and readers who read meet a lot of new peers and may have been to tolls or to a bookstore so thank you