Unravel saudi arabia. We have been hubbard who also i want to say to the audience, welcome. I will be taking audience questions. I will take as many as possible if you join us live stream or phone you can submit your questions. So the question is to both panelist. Continuing to get away with murder yet we are add another anniversary of the death of Jamaal Khashoggi a new and interesting reporting on how he was tracked before his death. So i will just open it up with that question and lets start with suzanne. Thank you very much for the invitation. Sadly, sadly in the middle of a storm right now and is considered responsible and who ordered the killing. And then to get away with it thought he depends very much or how he plays his cards. I now hes making more and more enemies somebody inside the family are sometime on somebody inside the kingdom if you dont have anybody outside then you definitely have a problem on the long run. At the same time he does not deliver what he promised which is at the same time he organize the country and actually promised a pleasant life and this is happening. The economy is in the incredibly bad but it is not going as he planned and at the same time a lot of people lean back and arent sure if they want to cooperate. Suddenly there is a very close connection with trump and at the same time the Intelligence Community is not happy. But he knows the economy depends on it. So how can he or can we get out from under the accusations . He certainly has his work cut out for him. Look at the challenges facing the kingdom and also the agenda he set for himself. And the things he is put forward and that is really impossible to carry out taking a country almost entirely to make it into a diversified economy were no country has yet to succeed in doing. Everything from building meals to create these new industries to cinema to arms production but the kingdom has no experience with solar or nuclear or but he has the playful. Mccray transfer always graduating from the universitys going to find jobs in the private sector which he hopes will expand. But obviously its been in credit and currently difficult point and then you just do Something Like this sort of try something to they said that we will go through the whole file process. We have this investigation. We came up with a small group of these lowly people. The last thing that that has to do with the branding in the kingdom. Thats going to last a long time and make it very hard for him to get a lot of western companies that they have been interested originally to now, instead of offices in the kingdom or new products are. It is all reputation aspect to it thats really going to track them down. So did he get away with murder. I think some people will expect him to be removed from office or his father was 1 penny and another place. But that was all speculative. I didnt think it was ever really possible. It. Deborah fleming ask another question. And that is why was he such a threat. It was a gruesome murder. It was risky. Likely to be caught. I dont know if they thought about this. And you have something in his book that is interesting. Youre talking to a british he says that is like a mafia. And jamaal and sign on to the mafia. But what he didnt understand is his lifelong contract. In of both of you would please talk about why was it so important to eliminate jamaal. Will the known and prolonged time as but i never thought of him as a threat to the kingdom. A threat was so great that he needed to be chopped up and assembled. The both of you can address what it was that was so terrifying that he needed to be eliminated. It suzanne. When bradley said, is very, but at the same time theres truth to it when you say that he checked in to this close society. They believed in Saudia Arabia. He had incredible excellence to the royals. Very influential royals they work with him very closely. Any new all of the internal discussions going on. Sure he had a lot of insights about the secrets in a very small circle of people. So this in itself is a threat. Certainly and never been rl threats to the kingdom. And open it up to him. Its over exaggerated. But it wasnt completely anything that somebody checked out from the Center Circle and this is how it mustve been perceived from the ruler. And what was openly criticizing in one of the most prestigious newspapers in washington, in the exact circle. That is just trying to create an image of himself. And at the same time, he defended the group which i think is indeed something the whole family is a kind of concern about. He has close connection to the muslim brotherhood. In the book you see a photogra photograph. It shows as him in a cave. And they were sitting next to each other from the erratic countries are in and at the time, in the 80s. 40 years ago or 35 years ago. They started at the same point. They were framed. When bin laden became an outlaw. But they still had contacts prints out that they were enemies. So the idea which they had in the very beginning was Something Like the brotherhood. Half the people of the countries that have a safe, the people should participate in the political process. So the saudi family is actually working through herself. And you have an absolute monarchy that you dont want to have. Enough to have. So what he did, he checked out from there. And he started to become a political figure himself. Not that he could really become arrival. But a political figure, possibly, maybe not himself. But the movement was permanence. He never thought of himself as an opponent by the way. He said ive been fighting for my country and another way. He had a vision for himself. A kind of social media connected audience regroup to discuss these things. The possible fear the crown prince and his continents had were that this group could grow and become the rent long run. Because now, Saudia Arabia is in one hand super conservative country been same time coming there usually social media as we do in the connected as we are. So even in the survey, each and every person is in and out. There is a sense of theres something happening but you cannot control. To organize not only the conversational people. And something which they have no experience with writing so far there was a social contract that we would provide you with everything you need. And you keep out of politics. So everything has changed in their including not guaranteeing a convenient life anymore for everybody. People would possibly start to think, why dont have to pay taxes all of a sudden. Why do i have to pay so much money for my water bill my electricity bill. My family, what can i still expect from this government. So people could possibly have dealt with us is king of this ruler can survive in the future. When this all plays into this. In one very last thing. It so wellconnected. I knowing everybody knew him. So he was a kind of interpreter of the country which he kind of understood well from the outside. So he was actually the one chipping the image to her to the outside. If this is something he definitely could be very jealous about. Deborah thing was interesting in saudi arabia is how much there is an oppositional outside of the country. That used to not be true. But we all are who they are and where they are. Why do you think was such a threat. Susannetheres been all of these different theories about the specific thing that jamal talk to and developed a relationship with. Things much simpler than that premiums just straight up disobedience. I grievances in the was in an established figure in saudi arabia and had arabia. Met with kings. He was the guy that outsiders would call when they wanted to understand what kinds of decisions meant. What are the kingdom do this. Based on who he had met and what he knew was best guess her interpretation. To me was the fact that he had been such a part of that inside circle point and all of a sudden is on the outside. A sitting in the capital of the kingdoms most important ally. Literally responding. If you back and look at the Washington Post columns produced responding in realtime to whatever whatever was happening in the kingdom. So you have the kingdom would suddenly like arrest a number of activists. Like within a week or two, it would come out of the post this is a terrible idea. Or had new information. Cindy things that they would have then to balk amount talking about how he thought it was a really stupid idea. Carl would not have been for saudi arabia. I think it really comes down to a combination of him being inside and choosing to be outside in such a critic. I think then saudi arabia changed. I think historically it has been an autocracy. But i think it was like a soft loved hypocrisy. It was nothing like syria we had to like people getting mowed down in the streets by security forces. In huge numbers of people sort of would disappear. Like saddam hussein. Art rock. The concern of the critical printer fewer private or try to organize something in the government would try to look the other way. And mps changed the rules. Basically let everybody know that youre not supposed to dos and trent disagree with the citizen. Not supposed to do it publicly. We saw the souths voice. And i spent years campaigning from yet but i wanted to do. But yet he just did not want them to be out there talking about it. You and others question the wisdom and end up in jail and then tried terrorism. In test the strength and i think that whole issue of jamaal just took it to another level. Just this idea who are you to go to washington and question what to do. I think they considered it a threat to its international standing. I just felt the need to be neutralized. Deborah so we have a question from julie johnson. It is anybody know the king, years ago including dementia. Thank you for the seminar. This is the perennial question. I suspect that you can only speculate nobody really does know. Susanne i talk to somebody the other day who actually was a life time friend of the king. Any so the king of weeks. He says is actually fine. He is not, both his is definitely not perfectly stable. He also has two been to the hospital a couple of times. But it seems such that he respondents, dementia is not something that is really with him so much. If it is there, it is in the beginning phase. I think what is a much more impact on his decision is that almost nobody has access to him alone. So it seems that the access to the king goes through son. Certainly, thats the thing. Ben i will claim to have a detailed medical diagnosis. You care from the whole range of things. People who meet with him and are surprised at how well he listens and engages. Theres also examples of them getting in the speeches and not knowing where he is. Hes in his 80s. Whether its dementia or not. Im not sort of in the place a diagnosis. I dont have any reason to believe that he disagrees anything that mohammed is doing. I do think it was a deliberate choice to delegate. Sitting at the end of the day, like he is probably not involved in all of the details. He doesnt know what every in single initiatives going on. But in no reason to believe that there doing big things behind his back for that he sort of doesnt know with the general outcomes operated people have known and through the decades. A lot of this is things that he would talk about being interested in. Whether it was going after corrupt people. These princes who are wasting all this money getting in trouble abroad. Things like that. I do think theres theres not a lot of races are not acting on some of those wishes. Is not involved in some of this. Deborah we seen that king stefan on friday as the palestinian issue. Apparently with the king thinks that it went too far. Then he does come out and say so. Although this is interesting. They have allowed to fly over to saudi to get to th. To get the. So the only instance where you know the king has something to say or has been there been any other time i tried to rein his favorite son in. It. Susanne it was sad but he chose or was not happy obviously. In the issue so far is the only thing that i know where he could step in the seems to be really generational issue. As long as the king is alive. I dont see there would be relations between israel and the kingdom did if there is not to two state solution that is satisfying. But that is definitely the only where he only thing where he made a point which is obviously in the opposite of what his son would do. Deborah is there anyway to know know how theyre feeling about this decision. Some are very close. So they would not have known about it for is there any way to know. Does the king approve. Ben i certainly dont know the king thanks. Theres no way the uae did this without sort of running it by saudi arabia. They are certainly engaged with israel various overt ways on his own. Along with the 800 uae, because of the complexities in their own domestic. [inaudible]. Deborah you just froze van. Ben my intranet per unit is a lot more agile. Its a small country with a small citizen population point is much easier for the leadership to doing and take risks and control any kind of domestic opposition. Saudi arabia is like a really large complicated place. In a much Larger Population ready you have a much more ingrained condition a whole other generation not only supported the palestinians but raise money for the palestinians. And these people been talking about the Palestinian Issues for decades and decades. It in south i think that i dont have any reason believe that he sort of feels that he holds things against israel parties just aware of domestically how complicated it would be for him as opposed to another to sort of do it and the people of the society dont like it. Also that and. Gov. Eric garcetti that equat equated. Deborah we have a couple of questions. Who is advising him and is it possible to know who the voices are. And then he listens to. And sam wants to know, please comment on the relationship between mbs in the uaes. Susanne as far as i know, hes a little bit older. Then mbs. So its sad and that he takes advice from him. But in the closer circles, has a lot of very small say very well educated and very well achieved people. When i was to see them, as a billion people but there are couple of people who ive never met. Night see the head of the foundation. That. [inaudible]. There very close advisor on the time. And i never met as well. His known these gentlemen are obviously in this very closed circle. And who he takes most advice from i dont know. But certainly when it comes to the issues, he has great consultants around him. Theres nobody in which, it is an honor on one hand. At the same time, people come back. And for instance, he was businessman earning he was ambassador to berlin before. Is a fascinating, very well read very well educated it gentlemen. He has a lot of great people around him. Hes also a big fan of mbr is it turns out. Ben there is a range. The military sort of who whispers and sort of giving him these big ideas. He does have a lot of talented people around him. The London Private sector has been brought in to give him advice. Thousands of people the any saudis know the people around the region stressed or heads about one week even so close. He sort of was involved in that social media campaigns, nasty ones. In the u. S. Government has accused him of playing a big role in putting together an operation. This is somebody that i think that is a very reputation both inside the kingdom and washington. It in one of his bodyguards coming put them in charge. And these are just people that he likes any atrocities known for any years. Sue brings them all. Is not a whole lot of reason that they really a big judgment really great ideas sprayed but he trust them and are close to him. Youve got foreign consultants which is a very complicated issue because these people, any of them are incredibly well educated. They work in all these Different Countries and give him reports and advice. Theres a weird incentive structure where you want to give them the next contract. To see dont want sort of crown him the prince of saudi arabia and tell them that its ideas not a good one. If you want to fix the educations education. Well do it ten years and hell say i wanted done in six months even if its not going to work. [inaudible]. But when you look at the results and come out, its a very mixed bag party to some of the decisions have been quite good another thing seem to be decisions that are taking credibly and launching war with russia. At the start of the world pandemic. Who advised him on that plane and did anybody advise them of that. This plenty of evidence that sometimes he just makes really rash decisions. Let some sort of play out. Deborah we have a question considering the close relationship with top, but want to be like. It was a perspective of mbs. And biden of the presidency. Sure this is a question on the minds of any. Spent an extraordinary relationship. And are they talking about that. Susanne there is a special relationship in particular between trump President Trump, and kushner and mohamed. And Terry Kushner has done a lot to make this relationship working. And there is already a challenge. And having become the next in line to the throne. We all remember the situation and the president and his soninlaw were here once it was happening. Before the crown prince was removed. This a very close relationship which has i think part which we can analyze which can be a favor for the economy in the u. S. There is no business in the world which is bigger than the business between Saudia Arabia and the u. S. The amount of money which is involved here is beyond anybodys imagination. We saw in 2017, that President Trump in saudi arabia and the king signed series of letters. In the kingdom by the arms were 350 billion over ten years. In realistic or not, i can say that there are some people that would say the kingdom cannot pay for these. At the same time, there were contracts about 110. This is a much money. And certainly, trump is a businessman. And as we recall the possibility that there involved in or we have orders of the killing. Its very often that he weighs business more than anything else. And human rights or principles or anything. And what we dont know is is so uniquely i think, you can say untraditional that they have so much it aside which is happening. [inaudible]. It usually a visit or phone call or anything would go through the protocol. We go through the official that you have at levels that you have a net administration. Is not happening here. He picks up the phone and he calls mbs. Whatever he wishes. So nobody would know what this gentleman are talking about. In the interests or possibly involved. We dont know. All of these things at the end of the day race to the public. I just think that is personal. Sonic is divided. I dont know how much he will stick with his words once he would possibly be the next president. He said that he would treat the kingdom. [inaudible]. On whether this is very clever. But at the end of the day, it would not ignore human rights. As much as the other president does. Obviously his more view like president obama. Then he made something which is also not really easy to understand. He was at the exact same number or amount of pardons. 110 billion. And at that time, the largest trade never prayed between saudi arabia and the u. S. But at the same time, he was acting differently politically. He agreed working made the Nuclear Agreement happening in iran. In his message was, you guys have to live in the region. I think you can do one thing and tony dupree with everything that is happening in the kingdom. Which would certainly be provided. And if he becomes president. See 201 of the bigger question here, theres always been relationships with saudi arabia and the United States. The white house which is. Consistent for an obama was probably an outlier vote. Consistent. Another one is congress. It so should we be really asking if the senate flips. Have democratic majority. No matter who the president is. Does that impact the relationship with saudi arabia. Ben i think saudi arabia has a tremendous about writing, the saudis have invested so much in the personal relationship of doing things that take out. Much every other part of the u. S. Government. The treatment was like a long time partner of the cia. A lot of people in the intelligence. A lot of people the state department used to talk to him and meet with him. A lot of people knew him until the way he was killed, that angered a lot of people. The way that the human war has been prosecuted. They let people incredible. All of these pilots have been trying to use american jets. It sometimes even on the military bases. In the course to get the congress and youve had multiple efforts to try to come off the arms sales to the Saudia Arabia. Its been vetoed. And really the only sort of branch of government that you can point to right now and still really publicly on the saudi arabia is the white house. So if trump states, and india has four more years of more or less among winning fights impunity be Something Like that. If trump remains in the white house, is every reason to believe that he will continue to give the backing that he has the past. Which is basically to do whatever he wants. Hell veto any effort to slow down the arm still. Full sort of say its a big deal or it was not sort of a deal. I think it is going to be very hard for the saudis. They will tell you with that relationship with the United States and goes back to fdr. The security operations. This is a strong institutional relationship. And actually its hard i havent been elected to put these policies in place but bidens rhetoric it doesnt feel like he has any political benefit from the seventies and actually that he has a lot to gain to be very critical of the saudis what he has said has been incredibly powerful because then he decides he wants to be nice to saudi arabia so theres a lot riding on the selection its very interesting to see how they tried to move forward and with that relationship and how that changes with the white house. Coming back from 79 we have seen popculture coming to saudi arabia, freedoms for women, is it just to appease is there a bigger strategy behind all of this . I think so. First of all he absolutely understood because he is young gentle man himself he needs to get some steam he cannot just leave and one live in the kingdom you cannot sit in the coffee shop so they are traveling and why shouldnt they do that in their country . So that is a pitch toward the Younger Generation that we are the same generation and we will make the country great. Bad at the same time he also understood that religion throughout the world is not working any longer and that was a dangerous thing to do and certainly to push back that was a very brief move he did it he has to be at credited for that i think that gave a huge relief to the people and about those new industries and the issue and to form this and what could be possible to be picked up by the new entrepreneurs then there is the tourist industry it wasnt saudi arabia to be completely isolated nobody else came to visit the thought are going to saudi arabia to visit Music Festivals but now it is happening again. Its not possible to continue with that it is a winwin and also provides opportunities to women. I think it is completely understood women are the capital laser in the economy and also cannot provide the swap any longer to your people its necessary that women work you need to incomes to feed your family the job may not be the greatest you see women working as cashiers at the supermarket or selling fruit in the food truck but at the end of the day given permission to do that the lay people off or if you no higher any longer the government has 80 percent of the government meaning if you dont hire anymore the next generation will not benefit. So i think it is a bunch of things and that is a very positive movement the only people who are annoyed and say this is all we really need or want to have that at the end of the day it is very brave. I think the whole 1979 narrative i on 85 narrative is misleading no it has been an incredibly conservative place yes there were a handful of movie theaters there was some freedom in certain limited places but was incredibly conservative and always has been where it was before 79 or after 79 we can talk about the changes it was an important moment but the idea with that said i dont feel any reason to be cynical a lot of people will say he is doing pr be in movie theaters i dont think its that at all no reason to doubt his sincerity this is the kingdom he wants to have he doesnt want to have a keen everybody is part of the time that is one of his strengths that he understood that and he called it for what it was and realized that is that economic component to go to bahrain or wherever they can to see movies and things they could not do in the kingdom the general he is what he wants the kingdom to be where they can have fun and spend money and go to amusement parks. Growing up he was frustrated and then to have constituencies and to have their support and also a message this is we were supposed to do it that you can bring mariah carey to a concert that they have the ability what to do anymore. But with all the aspects of the reform project i think he called the demographics rate maybe it will not be as great or as many movie theaters or maybe not quite as large as he expected but then to say during this period it was a very different place on the social front. So to talk about the details and in saudi arabia i can order my i. C. E. Cream at baskinrobbins the change has been remarkable so i wondered if everybody came along at the same speed if your dad is conservative he can tell you that its to obama matter what the crown prince told you to do. And what about the social change and is this just for the rich . You can see the most obvious change in the rich class because they have lived outside the country and saudi arabia and now suddenly the most interesting thing is the middle class is as you are describing the leadership on the top is given permission that you may do that. So if you want to control your movement and still does. Its almost impossible if you dont have peace with the family you are bored with everything and everybody its almost possible to survive in that country and then to misbehave that meets that you are the outcast we would love to move out into an apartment to be incredibly welleducated the father is very strict about it and you dont want that. The other thing is you have an ongoing discussion in the family. And women have to fight for the right and also to have peace but their husband but it is a constant negotiation and friends of mine and were moderate people and then to leave the city and then to go wherever she wants. And then choose take the children for the holidays. That security issue is always with you. And with that discussion and then there is another phenomenon. There are ladies in their twenties or thirties it is pass the time they completely benefited from the change with the transformation and for instance i had a friend she was a pinker one of the most conservative places and with a completely segregated society in a very lovely rooftop restaurant like paris or london or new york or whatever so the waiter knocks at the door and this has not changed and she would love love to marry somebody and that was fine but to be left alone to find somebody like to be caught in the middle of the past and the future i think a lot of people will and its a constant negotiation and to fight for their liberation. Its a hugely dynamic time. One tendency that we assume people want to be like us there is a tendency to assume everybody wants to be a new yorker and go out drinking and dancing. For saudi arabia. [inaudible] as part of the culture what is interesting is that is this conservativism was reinforced but to change the society instead of having all these guys who grew up with their sticks to tell women you need to cover up why you sitting with a guy who is it your brother, this has been pushed to that level the state is not involved in that kind of policing so this will have to work itself out. If they need to work out what their own rules for. But i do think that unfortunately because of the restrictions on reporters going to saudi arabia i just think its such a dynamic time of such dramatic change you only have to get there and talk to people and i dont think outside we see enough of that complexity of whats going on while we go through this period of rapid change. We pick up the toughest topic overall the last eight minutes do you think there is a personal vendetta i can day dialogue as they escalate with iran . Does he have a personal vendetta or is he able to dialogue . During the King Abdullah time there was a personal relationship between King Abdullah and the cleric so this is to coordinate our support issues. This kind of relationship or personal relationship at the same time at the diplomatic level and with those International Issues and then to and with those atrocities on the ground. Those to step up and step up into the country. And its how they work all over the place. And we are not understanding this is by negotiation. Because they know how to play in the families do not provide for the iranians. So what they do is the same thing and then to support them like as a military consultant and this is what they have done so to have a shift that needs to be a completely different place with the whole package so this country is almost suffocated they need to live again. The Saudi Arabians have a lot of influence here. And now syria and lebanon and yemen and as a consequence of these proxy wars and it can be done by negotiations and i hope that the government to saudi arabia tries to have the right path do you know what our problem is . We are just too big for the saudis. I thank you for those. So there is a lot of Strategic Issues and those that have managed to get tremendous influence and all these countries around saudi arabia if you look at what theyve done in yemen and iraq saudi arabia has legitimate reasons to be angry at what they have in the region what they do about that . [inaudible] he has been doing this for a very long time doesnt have tremendous experience of the statesman this is the way that he sees it so the way they have managed to do this so the question Going Forward to to give up to these maximalist demands and when they give up everything they want in the war. And then to realize i cannot make these demands we have to find some kind of accommodation and that the United States immediately did not punish them. It became clear the United States will not become clear from the saudis they reached out those were not peace talks so resulting in any summit at least to bring down the temperature a little bit its one they may have realized that experience and then to find more practical ways to deal with ongoing situations is that power for a longer period . We have lots of questions. I will ask one more question so given the options of a political agenda can people have some sort of political accountability and representation we need to go pretty fast. So that puts the whole idea as a whole as a social contract it has worked as long as the saudi government could survive can they survive for much longer . We dont know. The economy is bad and then they dont come back. To replace it. I dont see it all the saudi government and the saudi government and from those instead of this contribution that they make so far. And the question for the next coming ten years. And without political development. Look at china and singapore and that is a very authoritarian place. And the bigger question is can you deliver on the economy . And then to have huge movements calling for political participation will my children have. [inaudible] what have a standard of living anything close . We got all the way to the end. The bread and butter issues matter with us deliver the economy for us . All the grand plans to make our lives better on better . And to make it much more difficult its impossible to speculate is not on the politics but the economy this is where people are watching him for. Behind the kingdoms veil and mbs thank you for the hour it has been great new will find it on the site thank you all