Where they made their home it with the north American Continent with the dynasty to create the constitution and building a republic. What a great way to start a book i spent most of last night reading it is a wonderful chronicle to the interconnected networks to tie them together about the founding of the country and the story evokes the spirit of hope and perseverance running straight through the american spirit. Doctor cheney along member of aei faculty so take a moment to acknowledge much we appreciate her scholarship and contributions to aei not to mention the service to our country. The latest in the series of several works to examine our countrys history with consideration and rigor her last book James Madison was a New York Times bestseller 2014 and shed new light on the life of the one of the most underappreciated founders also thank you to her interviewer Vice President cheney for her service in his service im pleased to have you both of you here today we will be taking questions after the conversation if you want to ask you can email before hand things over want to say one less thing the treasured piece of aei history concludes Vice President cheney the current Vice President of the United States mike pence during that interview he was polite but relentless asking tough questions it was a great dialogue we wish the questioner had pushed the envelope a little bit im sure you agree your adversary today is far more formidable than the one you face to that day. Give it your best shot and now to speak about your new book the virginia dynasty. And this is where i started and its remarkable to me that on the side isolated part of the not very important continent and certainly in the periphery of everything that these men would grow to greatness so i think is that you read it so well it does set the context. I agree. Take it away Vice President. Normally i have more to say but i was awestruck because when you take the enormous consequences of what these men did and how they could achieve and what they were a part of and all that it entails and those political systems and at the time it was a backwater as far as the world goes and then circles around washington dc but at the time and just what that remarkable accomplishments for a handful of men involved in the effort. [laughter] as far as he knew for a very long time for five or six years i disappeared i was writing away on my book in the far corners of the house. Im sure you wonder what i was doing spirit thats true many times throughout our marriage. [laughter] host i will turn it over to the both of you to continue your dialogue the presences always felt here we knew where you were. [laughter] thats a great joy to have your work going on inside the building. Is an example for everyone who works here. Its a mystery to people who dont write books anyone can spend five or six or seven years writing a book. But i just love it. I love the momentum that you build up as you learn more and more i like the research im not so sure about the writing but when you have those Research Assistants as i have at aei that is just one fascinating question after another but what took me so long as i go down every rabbit hole even being pretty convinced at the outset i will never played any part of that in the book but you have to love as i do, research. I like writing a lot but to spend a lot of time you have to love your subject also. One of the questions that comes to mind is not only were these men and architects from freedom and liberty and all that was detailed there was clearly a significant element Going Forward into our history of 19th century. So how do you reconcile on the one hand of the historic political system and the fact that most of the arkin text on architects was on were slaves. Thats a very big question and you can see statues of washington being tossed into the river i am not opposed to taking down the confederate soldiers they were traitors to the union i think taking those statues down is fine but i am appalled actually went statues of washington for the dc government had a commission to suggest if we dont explain the Jefferson Memorial better in the Washington Monument better than maybe they should be moved to some other place. They cannot do those because those are statues and the monuments on private land but i am appalled that this usually they were slaveholders i think jefferson called the distain on virginian and other spoke of it as a mortal sin so they were fully aware of the dilemma or the contradiction in which they existed but they found themselves unable the circumstances were not such to receive the full emancipation that justice demanded. That did not stop them once they understood a unique place they were in and the time they were in, they were all educated with freedom and liberty and justice and equality were central to the scottish enlightenment the artistry went to schools so they were perfectly ready to start a new nation based on those principles and thats what they did. You are right. It is a contradiction but i am sure glad they did it. How long did it take you to correct the book . Im not sure. Hello . We are disconnected. There we go. Robert we have no sound. The producers would like me to take a backseat we are hanging on every word i assure you we can hear every word in the audience can hear every word im getting the cut sign for me so we will leave it to you i feel like i am there with you but sometimes you have to listen to the staff so i am backing out so the two of you can engage in a dialogue and we are enjoying it so keep at it okay with that . Sure. He just asked a very tough question. And with a biography on madison . On the New York Times list ruled on out of those experienc experience. It was certainly the case i saw when i was working on madison how important the relationships were between him and jefferson in particular. They were committed to one another for life but his life was intertwined with monroes and everybody was in joined with washington. Doing quite a lot of research on the synergy. When the people find intellect and it turns out that what happens is they inspire one another, their conversations lead them to otherwise and the disagreements are important and it was a huge disagreement that washington had with madison to some extent. Out of that coral became a Political Party how the government ought to be run in one way and the elected politicians and the voters should go home and leave the politicians alone but somehow jefferson and madison were going to go about it. They were subjected to criticism and that made washington crazy so thats the original divide on one hand and the three younger men began. Which did you most admire quick. I like to think of it this way which would i like to have lunch with . The answer will be jefferson. I wouldve assumed it was madison. Thats different what kind of an experience it must have been to talk about his experiment and according to one woman which really surprised me and had no idea he was the president elect so you would be pleasant to have lunch with. To be stumbling on stable and not subjected to williams, a very profound thinker and he has a wonderful wife dolly she was unusual for her time. She didnt think twice about exerting herself and when they went out for formal occasions he didnt care that she wore plume plumes. He loved her extravagance and the incredible way that she dressed. She had one outfit that was pink velvet decorated with many chains i think it was boorish but there were some women that were distressed that she showed so much of herbalism. Of her some somebody asked what is you put a handkerchief over her neckline and with Dolly Madison in the white house she was certainly the most revealin revealing. And talk about something that is current and with the death of Justice Ginsburg to be set up for a better fight for the replacement i think those of us who read the history have a tendency to think we work hard and not spend much time or even be aware of those conflicts among them and i just wonder how that crew would look at the whole question of appointing a new Supreme Court justice before the election and one of the first women to serve on the court to be replaced i am curious how that would have been dealt with by your for president s. Can i just say a word about Ruth Bader Ginsburg . Sure. I think it is politically incorrect i have not heard a Single Person mentioned her sense of style. Not only a great justice a great lawyer and intellect , she has a sense of style and was always wearing something a little exotic. There is a picture of the Supreme Court members walking down the steps of the building she has a long skirt and is so appropriate for that moment. She just handled that. So now my politically incorrect complement. As i suspect our senators and our country as a whole but what i think about Ruth Bader Ginsburg during the American Girl and denomination someone asked her if she thought the president should wait and not a point during the year before the election or if she thought the senator should hold off voting and her answer was look , the president is still the president in the last year and its the job of the senators to vote. I think it shows the kind of changes that people in public life undergo madison changed all the time. He was the father of the constitution, the man who got the bill of rights through but after he struggled to make the Constitutional Convention work he wasnt sure if it was any good. But within three or four weeks and promoted it on the basis we needed a more powerful government. He changed his mind about that also but he worried about that very powerful central government. A british politician said sir, sir, when the situation changes, i change my mind. What do you do, sir . So i think part of the back and forth is a National Part of politics washington and madison and jefferson had a very fraught relationship with John Marshall who by the way had gone to school with monroe. The late 18th and early 19th century coming across state connection it was said it was like a Little Country of cousins that everybody was related to everybody else. I am intrigued of some of the debate talking about Justice Ginsburgs contributions and a personal friend of mine and i was always struck that relationship between the know and ginsburg that there were such opposites in the positions that they represented. But they were very close personally and i can remember talking about her. You are much closer than i but that their love for Classical Music and Justice Ginsburg said at one point when i go and listen to the oper opera, the voices inside my head stop. I am just relieved of the feeling of conflict. And uplifted by it. I had never heard talk why he loved opera so much. One of the things that you touch on is that you said there was conflict from those in the nation. My feelings, obviously i was not there then. [laughter] but there is a feeling i think in the country today the relationships politically have evolved in a way not in the way that you would expect for the feelings those relationships are strained and the bells are significant in my own sense of it is 50 years since we first came to washington that there is a time when the relationships were better and friendlier and more collegial than is the case today. Just because i know you that working across the aisle nobody ever condemns you for doing that but of course jack was a democrat from pennsylvania. When i arrived here in 1966 to go to work on the hill for the first time over the years good relationships for years i spent as secretary of defense my strongest ally in the house , a man i did the most work with was jack murtha the first vietnam vet elected to congress. And my closest ally. He chair the defense appropriations subcommittee while i was secretary of defense so there were relationships like that. They were significantly different from capitol hill and theres always been some degree of cooperation. But your book shows sometimes down and dirty there just like it was. The steadiest and most rewarding relationship for both men was jefferson and madison they didnt always agree jefferson tried to undermine the constitution and the ratification and sent letters out to friends and then showed them on the floor of the Virginia Assembly with they were undertaking a crucial ratification that they not ratify it in the food chain that should be made madison did not get mad he just kept writing for a while and jefferson was embarrassed it took a long time to send a copy of the federalist papers. Its just an example that jefferson is winging it and then to criticize that constitution ratification and then not losing his temper i think jefferson mustve been a very difficult friend. Its 1130 what answer couple more questions. With a phd in English Literature quite a ways away from that getting involved in the history and then to do Political Science. So how do you account for that from the literature to politics of the Founding Fathers . And those four different magazines and outlets. I think i can major in history. Is not Political Science i miss video you could possibly get a phd in history. But when i got a chance to start writing it was wonderful and this one job i had allowed me to take one aspect of washington dc and explain it and from lincoln and cemetery to the column it is all over washington. And why do we have all of these columns . So that is just the direction. Im coming back to us to say thank you and this is lovely so now we will continue the question but i just could not resist thats a wonderful conversation. Im from forward visiting scholar at aei its a pleasure to be with you today doctor cheney and Vice President cheney we had some interesting questions. The first one i want to ask you about the quality of statesmanship they want to go home or stay home and then to carry in virginia and then to be in europe and wanted to go home but they all sacrificed for the good of the country can you tell us your thoughts on what qualities of leadership. And it was enormous and such an opportunity to build a country based on freedom. And it was an irresistible calling to them. It was also punishing whenever he could but the six years that washington was gone during the revolution and at one point madison spent far more time at a boarding house in philadelphia. And i think that reflects they had a great task they are bigger something and themselves. They were very attractive and then they nearly went broke and no doubt they give those absentee land owners for so lon long. There are many many reasons. But if you ask would you rather have a life that is welloff or to create a great nation im pretty sure they wouldve chosen the latter. So that network that you discuss in your book there were other networks as well like the bostonians and quincy and the hancox with morris and scheidler so how would you describe the relationship of these Different Networks that the easter networks are more focused on commerce while they had more cultural and the economic background . There is a wonderful quotation i cannot remember, maybe you can help me john adams is wonderful and entertaining and smart that washington was appalled as a commander of the Continental Army and went to boston and then if you had slaves in the end it just didnt work or allow as a profitable enterprise they were much more polite to pick up dust and this is just one example and southerners in the beginning were very different part of the civil war happened because certainly the north by the middle of the 19th century reconcile. So the first big three all have these green titles like the father of the country declaration of independence , the father of the constitution . It is often underworked but by choosing to focus like marshall over monroe what did he add like 200 years later what have we missed about him . We have missed a lot for a long time because there wasnt a comprehensive edition and now there is. So as i expect in the years ahead we will see a lot more of monroe scholarship. He was a curious man. He angered perhaps and to have a formidable temper but monroe is one of the people he was angry about most of the time was washington. And then to see what person he was. And then to Pay Attention and then in his character and then realize he was a good president. Didnt preside over great like the Louisiana Purchase even though he was there doing some part of the negotiating but was great nonetheless with monroe with a John Quincy Adams may have a good feeling and with that term in office. In some sense that was real there was a calm in the country and a calm in the presidency the most stable cabinet of any of the president s that is a security and continuity. I want to talk about the revolution and how it shaped their character because all four of them participated in some sense jefferson and the governor of virginia fled from the capital much to the delight of Patrick Henry and he was not cut of military alert on military cloth but the forms of Public Finance can you talk about the ways in which the war shaped their character and understanding, how does that affect them . In madisons case he cannot become a warrior because he had epilepsy. This is a theory that i substantiated in my madison book to have a complex partial seizure every once in a while and as he described it the functions would be suspended it seemed he had such an event practicing to be a soldier the story isnt told entirely but not overly sure thats what happened and then didnt feel he could serve in the military so that was Madison Story may be to be a little left out and then to study governments and constitutions even as a very young man that was more and more important to him. So jefferson spends his whole life trying to prove he wasnt a coward he was very humorous in a way for us looking back. Basically try to act like he wasnt worried and was at his home in charlottesville and invited the legislators to stay the night and give them food and drink a young man came to one of the british were coming. Finally people began leaving and then one of the last to leave and try to do a very casually but in the end he got on his horse and galloped away. And with washington in particular in this argument that washington did not appreciate what he had done. Monroe was nearly killed. Taken out of action not given the commission he thought he deserved. And all of those things made him feel washington was turning his back on him. It was an Opportunity One of the things i admired is how no matter how tough to convey the aura of confidence but it is very interesting because those that are worried is the indecisiveness but as the war went on but it was that rockhard confidence or ability to appear confident that whats on that was important. Projecting confidence more broadly come all four of them had very distinct, public appearance. Washington obviously lead men to what was a difficult situation. But even in madison that madison participate in College Debate societies and prepare them in ways for public life so in this age to see them just pop off on twitter all the time with the lack of decorum is there a way we can recapture that to prepare the young people for engagement in the public sphere and the expectation of what it means to participate in those . They had very distinct sense of public dignity which seems to be lost today. I do think the atmosphere in virginia encourages people from a very young age to participate in Public Service so when they were very young and with the actual legislation so that help them that we probably should not overestimate the composure and that they later demonstrated which often involves lyrics that you were not repeated in front of children. They had a lively time at princeton as well as learning a great deal from a great man named john witherspoon. One question for you mr. Vice president. Thomas jefferson was among his accomplishments serving as Vice President how would you describe his tenure . He did not do a thing. [laughter] i think he did much. He did get squared away to be president. And i think speculating thats the hope for an outcome. Now there is a sense and with those most significant that there are legitimate jobs and none of that is true but i dont think of jefferson as Vice President i never thought of myself as Vice President. But the history is such it is clear from one of those over the years. So as a followup jefferson became Vice President having finished second in the Electoral College and to re envision and the American History the secondplace finisher and president ial elections become Vice President s so to say do you think the 12th amendment was an improvement . I know. Because most recently with truman even though he was a haberdashery from missouri and those that were included and in world war ii. Been a significant sense and it was his time as Vice President the didnt really set him up to perform that task. I would like to interject. The vice presidency from the beginning was an afterthought. In order to establish voting in the first instance everyone in the pack and those who got the most votes as long as it was the majority was president and those that got the second number was Vice President. That was really an afterthought. So then what do we do with him . Now what . Now they can only think of one job with the presidency of the senate and did that to keep them out of trouble. I remember when i was president of the senate. Didnt you cast a tiebreaking vote . Yes. Several times. I was busy. [laughter] we are just about out of time but i have one final question because we talk about the history of these men mr. Vice president with contemporary politics. Everybody agrees difficult times for our country but do you think maybe one or two lessons that virginia dynasty can guide our politics moving forward. They were raucous and fighting with each other that may be a very important element jefferson was smart enough lady way jefferson was smart in a practical way looked and said how do i succeed . Washington had the innate intellect and that attitude and interest towards those issues hope to make them successful. What do you think about the musical hamilton and the way the members there are remembered . I love hamilton. We sought a long time ago when i was still offbroadway and i had heard about it. I got us tickets i had the hardest time in the world persuading dick to go to a rap musical but he didnt really admired it as well. [laughter] i thought washington was humorously done but madison was the one most disappointing. I know you were not supposed to try to look like the fellow you were impersonating that madison was a big man who walked bent over and that caught my attention and i thought it might have changed that a little bit spirit thank you for your time this has been an educational and enjoyable opportunity for me to speak with you and based on the questions our viewers enjoyed good luck with the book best wishes to you both thank you so much going to far especially for someone who held a nonpartisan place like cia director have you ever felt like you had gone too far . Is not just policy differences with Company Administration for what they have done. I wouldnt be speaking out pernicious the differences if this is political corruption and abuse of the office of the presidency. Okay we alive. Welcome to this webinar. Im pleased to introduce to terrific authors who have done almost