Household name. People know his name from public institutions, obviously from the banking legacy. Theres not a lot about him. Can you tell us about him and what you found so compelling about him as an agent and an actor within this story, this landscape that you are drawing. It. When i first started looking into this time. , i know a lot more about roosevelt did about morgan. As is probably true of most people. When i realized as i began researching is that this was really morgans world that roosevelt very kind of quickly and abruptly and welcomed in terms of wall streets point of view, treated. By the time roosevelt became president. Morgan was at the peak of his power and if he was the king of wall streets literally called zeus. On the eve of the inauguration. Roosevelt Vice President morgan had created the first billiondollar company in the world. Still with us today. As a company that employed more than any other company and control enormous amount of production. It was a huge monopoly. Susan and then just a few months into roosevelts presidency in november, morgan created the secondbiggest company in the world. Its the focus of the book. As a holding company. It was worth about 400 billion which it would be worth about 11 trillion today. So in less than a year he created two of the worlds two biggest companies. But beyond that, morgan also controlled the flow of capital. This really worries power and influence came from party to he was wealthy but he wasnt the wealthiest american. But he threw his bacon through jp morgan control capital from europe and america. Decide where it should go. Along with that, took seats on a lot of the companies that he was investing in. Snarling did he have an armless control over kind of the financials against city had to say now the companies all across the country will run. And among those companies was a railroad. Like very important. They had grown rapidly, recklessly. They had gone bankrupt, had caused depression sprayed and ended a certain point the investors were so frustrated that they asked him to get more involved now is a process that was done so forcibly. Then it became known as an organization rather than reorganization. He was going and he would disrupt the company and take a big stake. And smooth things out. So by the time he takes office in morgan is on wall street, there are the two most powerful people in the country. And destined to come into conflict. Clay so this is obviously as anybody knows, the outline of roosevelts first term. They know this is an important part of that story. But can you tell us especially from the morgan point of view or maybe from the economy point of view, the investors point view. What was so significant besides this tie. Why is this something morgan drove towards and ultimately bias is something that someone roosevelt might find concerned about. Susan so morgan had been involved with the railroads for years. It he has a dream of creating a trust Verification Company that could span the world. The shipping lines. Can railroad was dominant in the northwest. And he was competing another railroad. Also in the northwest. They both needed a way into chicago. Which then and now its usually important industrial agricultural center. In the fight for the rail line that went into chicago but morgan. In his railroad colleague brought them into conflict with another who is also a railroad magnet. Ultimately, hammond tried to have a hostile takeover of the company the morgan created. So this is something that was a really shocking because no one had ever expected morgan to be challenged party did this was a company that he had worked very hard to build. So without hostile takeover occurred. The lead to an market panic. That left as you might imagine, the smallest investors the worst shape. But it was a very public fight. It was very costly. It was very unusual. Not the way morgan like to operate. In order to defend this and take control of these three lines. He worked with help and with hammond to create morgan securities. It almost in defiance of Public Opinion rated because at that time, people for worried about monopolies. It was very hard for an everyday person to not be come part of the monopoly of some kind. Oil, salt, sled, for bags. They were all monopolies free so the railroad monopolies were what worried people the most because everyone was so dependent on them. And at the time, people were probably more dependent on the roads and their livelihoods and to be more determined by railroads and by the federal government. So when morgan created morgan securities, he did it knowing that it could face a legal challenge but confident that his lawyers could out argue a government lawyer. Would not also expecting it to come to that. A sinking office in september 19 oh one. He was later, he later analysis securities rated so everyone was paying attention to that in part because of what had preceded in the spring. In part because its morgan. And because it is a railroad. And as northwest which is an important economic part of the country. Developing part of the country. And when roosevelt learns about this. He sends his attorney general to florida. With a whole bunch of legal papers. He tells him not to tell anybody else in the cabinet what he is doing. But to look over and to see if he makes a credible case for charging Northern Securities with violating the sherman antitrust act. So ultimately, they do. I would just a setback in for roosevelt, and the way it was an incredible opportunity. For the antitrust act for sherman had been in place since 1890. But its been enforced. Erotically. And effectively and roosevelt was eager to use as much power e office that the federal government had created into extended. So he saw the sherman antitrust act as a great tool. I think i actually came to roosevelt and morgan in a mortgage roundabout way. That is in 2016, when i was thinking about writing a book, i was not sure that i was going to rite historical book, and roosevelt wasnt top of my mind. What i was interested in and responding to was bernie sanders, believe it or not. Remember him it . Was his talk of a new progressive moment, of a reckoning for big business, and as a Business Reporter, investigative journalist, those ideas were interesting to me, and then i started to look back when in americas history had we been in a similar situation. Everyone you want to know, what can you learn from what has happened before . I kind of worked my way back from the Great Society to roosevelt and the new deal, and then ultimately to Theodore Roosevelt and the square deal, and kind of to me what he did was to both set the tone and the terms for the progressive era that ultimately emerged. Didnt last as long as some people might have liked, was incomplete, but it was really the first time when a president stood up for Everyday Americans against the Public Interests, broadly speaking, against corporate interests. That was really to me what was interesting, and so when you get there and you see theres morgan standing there, he immediately commands attention, and its why as i mentioned earlier, initial i thought its a book about roosevelt and then morgan is an interesting character. Then the more i thought, i realized, it in sway some ways smooth not have been a roosevelt in the way we now him if there was a mortgage began the way know him and the interesting part of roots big and hugely kind of interesting and well known story was this interaction between them and the ideas they represented, and to have america and the railroads and the other Railroad Magnates be characters and as best as i could to kind of lay out the landscape and to what kind of a country it was that roosevelt was taking command of. Its interesting you mentioned sanders. Its interesting this is obviously not historically responsible to ask but what would roosevelt thing of sanders . And one of the differences is that roosevelt was not anticapitalist, he wasnt an idealology, he had values and ideas but not a doctrinaire and was antidoctrinaire. That was a strength. Maybe you can talk but, what do you think was roosevelts put it in a high his theory of capital him . What with his approach . He took on one of the biggest capital grist american history. That is whale made so it being to me. Nuances are all more interesting. So i would say roosevelt believed in big business. He thought it was essential and inevitable and morgan represented that, but i think beyond that, one way to think about this is what and how was american capitalism in particular going to be defined . That is america was not a land of monarchs, and yet you could consider some ways root im sorry morgan to be very ais a aristocratic, and look at the morgan library. Roosevelt has an american sense of a democratic capitalism. Morgan, when he spoke, which wasnt that often but he believed in an organized kind of capitalism. Not a free for all. He wasnt fighting for competition all the time. He was fighting to curtail competition in order to increase profits. So, he believed thatmer should have a economy that was directed from above, by a few men, who he believed we all should trust to do the right thing. And i think what roosevelt believed is that the government has to have a role in that. It wasnt okay for capitalists to be left alone; that, yes, they should do what theyre good at, but the government had a role in terms of regulation and supervision, and when that didnt work, litigation. That wasnt the first choice. But i think youre right. Roosevelt often said that he the action his took werent revolutionary, they were to prevent anything from happening that was revolutionary. He wanted also wanted to guide capitalism but just i think he i think he did genuinely believe he represented the Public Interest and that those Public Interests had to be defended against the corporate interests and that the corporate interests were so powerful that it had to be the federal government that did this. Again, the resonance with today and the, lets say, one might characterize the attitudes of certain business leaders, maybe parts of the tech industry, kind of knowing what is best, knowing what the future will hold, and you can understand why critics on both left and right today wont accept that and why someone like Elizabeth Warren, but also senator holy are beth fans of Theodore Roosevelt. They both respect some version of that story you just laid out that brings us to the Northern Securities case and i do not want to give away the details because its a very wellwrought in the book and ill read that for people to read. I want to ask you, besides some important in biography of morgan and the roosevelt biography, why what was the ultimate kind of takeaway for the country of Northern Securities . Why focus on this case . Its what do you makes its stand out thats worth a whole book. Yeah. So, to me this was when roosevelt and morgan came into conflict most directly, and the case really represented the two different versions of capitalism that we have been talking about where morgan and his lawyers argued that Northern Securities should be allowed to operate because it was good for the country, it was going to help the country become wealthier, it was going to allow the country to compete in the global marketplace, and that americans should trust morgan, in particular, but also hill and harriman to run it in a way that was best for america and best for consumers. And i think what the government argued ultimately successfully, is that this was too much fewer put in three too much power to put in one persons hand and because of the nature of industry and its location and the ultimate plans, and what i think made it so important and symbolic is because it was a case that got a lot of attention at the time. It may seem a bit obscure and you hear antitrust arguments or litigation, and maybe, like, a few brain cells start so shut down, but im a Business Reporter and i say that, but i think its also important to remember that people in america were following this case. They were concerned about the outcome and millions of people would be affected by this the Supreme Courts decision. So, it was front and center during roosevelts term and he and knox were very eager to make sure the case made its way to the Supreme Court would was decided before his first term was over. He presumed the government would win and that this would be a great accomplishment for him when he went into the campaign for presidency in november. And it was. The headlines at the time after the government won, were people will love him for the enemies he has made. And also basically the Supreme Court has just both renominated roosevelt and basically won the election for him. So, it was very important and its n some ways symbolic, and i think it was in terms of its economic impact, kind of more symbolic and a more topic because of what it showed people. Rather than the immediate economic consequences for people. I it was an important law can be enforced, yes, a prominent businessman and a wellknown huge company can be held to account. I have another question or so but i encourage a few questions in the chat box but i encourage everyone to jump in the next couple of minutes with questions. What did this do in terms of roosevelts ideas houston capitalism. His idea but policy. He had the bulk of his presidency still to go and how did this case as self land sort of a landmark moment set the course for him for the rest of his time in the white house . I think this case, plus the other major kind of event where morgan and roosevelt interact in the book, which is the coal strike of 1902, which is very briefly was promising a real time of kind of disspare and hardship for people in the winter of 1902 and ultimately settled when roosevelt appealed to morgan for help, and so just sort of an aside, interesting that as they were fighting in the courts, they also were able to Work Together to resolve a National Crisis in the middle of it, something also sort of hard to imagine today but i think the combination of being able to settle the strike, the first time a president really tried to mediate between, again, interests of the public and companies, the coal mines, and the victory in Northern Securities, gave us momentum to progressive agenda, and in his second term he did push for more regulations, and then later we know as a candidate for the progressive party, he talked about a lot of policies that would be very familiar to the bernie bros and Elizabeth Warren and are talk tout body. Universal healthcare, attacks on the wealthy a tax on the wealthy, a minimum wage, an eighthour work day and more protection for workers. So my sense is that these two events, the case and the coal strike, were crucial to roosevelt both creating and then taking advantage of momentum in america. Before i turn to question is want to encourage everybody i know everyone will go out and buy copies. Multiple copies of the book. I always hate to say it about my own books and i dont know how susan feels but it but if you buy a back, leave a review on amazon. Its incredibly important, and it is often a little awkward to ask people to do that so i will do it for her. Let me good to questions here. The first question, how long did it take you write the book in research and everything. Yeah. So, i started researching it in 2016. The book came out in may of 2020. And i worked basically every morning, weekend, and all my vacation, including three months on become book lee book leave from the day job as a magazine writer and lots of stolen hours from my employer shhh and a lot of wonderful editing and other help from dunes bury. Ovals the Research Part of that was was an intensesive year and a half and then of course kind of continued to research where i found gaps and holes is a was writing. It was fouryear project. Wow. I know how that sounds familiar, im sure. You know, if youre committed to something you can make it work. Yes. So chuck asks, how could a railroad affect and to some degree control so many peoples lives . Yeah. Interesting. In terms of the railroads that made up Northern Securities, i can say railroads were the only means of transport, so every business person and farmer needed to get a reasonable rate from a railroad in order to have a thriving business. Sometimes they were able to do that and sometimes the Bigger Companies got far favorable rates. So, there was a concern the railroads were helping and sometimes corrupting business. Theres a very close relationship there, and the smaller farmers and Business People were left out of that. More generally i would say about the railroads, as they were being built, a railroad could bring with it incredible prosperity and if you lived in a place or were thinking about moving to a place that was bypassed by a railroad, your town could become more impoverished. Railroads altered the geographicky of opportunity and mostly at the convenience and by the design of the railroad builders. So i think those their weighed most of the ways in which they kind of controlled both in very overt and more subtle ways Many Americans lives. A couple more questions. One that parallels your story but maybe you have some thoughts on it. How did the Pragmatic School of philosophy influence the ideology policies of roosevelt . Hes a big reader and converse santa in so many i i think people who dont know most people here do, know this, but very conversant with the lit tour and ideas out there. Is that something that you came across, philosophy that might heal influenced him . Really interesting question. Not directly but i do think youre right to say that it was almost innate in him. It was the way that we could see him govern and lead in most of his positions before he became president and then definitely as president. He was always very careful to balance and to try to get americans to see, i think, what maybe is like the most ultimately pragmatic idea of all, which is that if you are rich, you are not going to ultimately feel comfortable and enjoy being an american unless most of the other people in the country are doing well also. Just the very notion that we as americans are kind of a common body and that we do well or we suffer together. I know its both kind of like a beautiful idea and also ultimately pragmatic. We all have to Work Together. So, i think thats what made him intriguing, effective and probably frustrating to the more progressive and youre right, radical people that always wanted him to do explore push harder. Sure. Absolutely. Well, the last question, because we want to leave time for Theodore Roosevelt himself to speak and lp asks dark good question. A parlor game question. What experience influenced trs leadership more, his time in new york and his experience in new york or his time out west, in the bad lands and two very different types of experiences. I have my answer. What do you think . I want to hear your answer. Ill give mine first. Im going to say for the purposes and almost the confines of my book that the new york city experience was probably more relevant because he was both forced in part by his fathers kind of man mike cal benevolence, and this own inclinations to see in new york that people like morgan could avoid, and then i think as police commissioner, even in his kind of short and failed run as mayor, he was aquinted with a new york acquainted with a new york that many wealthy privileged new yorkers were not, and at the same time, equally familiar with wall street. Right . And friendly with some of the lawyers and the kind of people circling wall street. If not morgan himself. Whats your answer, clay . Mine is a total dodge. I think that theres well, i mean theres a binary between them. Dont think that roosevelt would have been roosevelt if he didnt have both of those experiences and i think that his way of understanding new york sort of similar to what you said, his way of understanding new york and moving around in urban politics was influenced by his time out west or just more his sort of ability to inhabit what we might call the western mind, and likewise, his approach to the west and western politics was informed by his understanding of urbanization, and you see that in this conservation politics and his i think all of that forms the basis of this important policy views Foreign Policy views but you cant separate the two but in fact you have to see the two in dialogue. In forming the Theodore Roosevelt we came to know and love. Now once cspan2s booktv, more television for serious readers. Good evening and welcome to this online event at greenlight book store. Currie arsenault will be presenting her book mill town. I just want to say a huge thangs to kerri and ben for making this happen and to all of you for showing up. So were not able to host events in our store space at the moment our community of authors and readers still here remember we incredibly grateful