I think the perceptionce that many people in the United States and also around the worldhi that this is an extraordinary unusual time in a sense where we are out of time will be a curiosity in the future. People will look back and wonder about that wonderment. And he gets kind of an interesting phenomenon. When you think about today do you compare it to any other time in history . As a historian. Im interested in that. We have a cognitive tendency. In the same way im the kind of person that seems like this and family members. Our need for familiarity. For most of my career as a historian. What time is this like. It is an easy story to write. I think theres a whole crop of president ial biographers who go out on talk shows. I generally find them to be not i in this era. Its actually a way to kind of contain the chaos. It is a way to avoid what is truly strange about this. What do we mean when we talk about American History. How are we to reckon with the fact that our present day is so polarized that the path is to different paths. We cant even imagine a common interest see. I still stand by the statement. On the count of the nations issues. The past isnt changed. That has been obvious to mesi as a historian for a long time. I think its more obvious to the public than it ever has been before. They got to the floor by the recent conversations about monuments. And whether the confederate monuments should stand. They havent occupied the attention of the media. And the broad swapped. We can think about other controversies in the history wars of the 1990s or certainly moments in the teens and 20s that are similar to that. With the public fight over a history we have a sense now that remember that crazy goofy instrument mean. That is the world in which we t live now. Use of information that is available can be seen. Not in the fractured lens. It is now thehe spectacle. In the past as well. I study history not because im deeply fascinated by things. Im really interested in how we got here. And how people struggled in the past and what we can learn fromggt to forge in the face of suffering. Its really most of the story filed for that you can open up. You can justify your own politics. At the gets pertinent now. And this is from these i i, truths. The american experiment has not ended. A nation born and revolution will forever struggle against chaos. I think in the course of this conversation youre likely to throw something at me change my mind. Thats just a truism. A nation is a human creation. They dont exist in nature. Those are natural communities. They dont naturally live in nations. As a category Political Community in our era has proven extremely important because of the liberal nation state. Its the only one that can guarantee the rights to peoplets and they have the particular place. And the organization of a government through the consent of the people that can actually deliver to the people the services. And the guarantee of rights. Nations are really important. A nation as a fundamentally unstable thing. In some way, especially the United Statesn which is a nation based on an idea. And not on the shared history. It is based on an idea. Its the daily anguish of people wondering whats can happen in the United States and they will look at the country. That as a peerless estate. The constant edginess of that chaos. Professor jill lepore at i will point did you say to yourself, i think i want to write a history of the United States and 800 and some pages. I had been asked to write u. S. History textbooks throughout my career. Most are jointly written. They specialize in a time often in their approach. It takes a team of scholars to put together a textbook. And ive never been attracted to that. It will write the tasks book. It has a particular tone. That is extremely unappealing to me. I happen to write history. But i would write anything. A few years ago i was asked for the first time to write i said as a college textbook. I would be very interested in doing that. I think there is a need for the United States. Just for the public as a whole. There used to be these books. At a certain point every american historians career men what write this. None of them are the last of their kind. The tradition has fallen away and it hasnt been a book like my history for quite a long time. It seemed to me like something of a dare. We will direct the lost tradition. I worked with an editor and publisher that i usually admire and they let me write the book that i wanted to write. T the account that i thought needed to be written. Essays about American History. I said okay. For me it was important that i write it quickly, i get really bored with books really fast. I did write the book pretty quickly. But i have this ideaea in viewers who have read the book. That if i wrote it fast it would read fast. I took on the project but very much of the idea that i would spend x number of months on this product. And no more i if i did then. , with the thousand pages. You can spend ten years on it. Ev that would have driven me not knots. To start chronologically when you do things like that. It is not contending them. It has themes. It aims to be significant in the ability to comprehend that. It was a very particular method. Four chapters. There is a lot of symmetry to the organization. I made the outline. And i went to the library. I put them in the sack in my office. With a yellow sticky note on the top. I made stacks. And that every time i got to the bottom of the stack i would write the chapter. And then to go get it for the next pause. Day by day i worked my way through. My office is not too far from the library building. If you check out the books at the circulation desk. They look at all your books again. E i know the security guards pretty well. They also all came to know what i was doing. Everybody would be paying attention youre at the new deal. I cant wait till you get to truman. Ai all of the security guards were following my progress. People read a lot of history. They were the people that i checked up with the most. What got left out. One of the reasons that it became so difficult for an academic history and to write the history of the United States. That revolution was in the academy. It has involved putting back in all of the people we were stripped out of the story ofry the United States for a century of an half. They were really quite provincial they all belong to a single Demographic Group. They were interested in the history of that Demographic Group and no other. We have a very narrow understanding. With the historians of science. It is a topic of the American History. All of the people who kind of exploded the profession. Nobody could write that. Given now that we have such a broad with the broad understanding of the diversity. How could you cram all of that into a single volume. It wouldvo involve eight rhetorical act of violence. In certain groups in any case you would be kind of the not for what you empathize. His academic scholarship it is pretty punishing. There is a lot of disincentive to do this kind ofnt work. You would be promoting a kind of fiction that the country was just one thing. They could be reduced to one story. These are the years of not only intellectual. But the political sensibility. It seemed like a on dependable project. It did not get them for a really long time. There were many nights making lists of all of the things that we were going to be able to attend to. I wasnt writing an encyclopedia. And the reader needs to know why information in the chapters actually had to be in some theme or claim you come up with rules for what needs to be there and what doesnt. Its not to say that they can all be secondguessed. I guess the way that i eventually got myself to sleep. Was the number this is not the last definitive account. I was trying to rekindle the tradition. And my hope would be that other people would come alonge and write similar books. And challenge the account. That is how the historical scholarship works. Its not really meant to be the end. Be what motivated the followup book. I was asked to write an essay for foreign affairsrs on the history of american nationalism. A time in 2018 that they might remember of they gave a speech. Maybe he was in texas. He said he was explaining i was a nationalist. I guess im not supposed to use that word. But im a nationalist. I think they were remembering the details. They asked them about nationalism and the history of the world and the meaning and implication. He kind of just said he didnt care. The point was he considered himself and national. There was in 2018 a lot of discussion of the rise of the american nationalism. Speemac i was asked to write an account either in the context of the movement. Or the idea of america as a nation. And what that absence of a National History is. Thats what it can do by proposing a problem. I think i say in the preface to the book. I wanted to explain what the nation was. And why nationstates manner. And why it matters. And how it is. F in the absence of the defense of liberalism the only kind of nationalism that comes to the floor is the liberal. And that poses a danger. We will get into those definitions in just a minute. We happen to have that video about President Trump in october of 2018 in houston. See mike at globalists is a person that wants the globe to do while and not carried about our country so much. We cant have that. To have a word it sort of became oldfashioned. Its called a nationalist were not supposed to use that word. W im a nationalist okay. Use that word. So professor jill lepore when you hear the president say im a nationalist what does that doy to you. I think in the context of the whole. Its just so interesting to hearxc i dont have video in this exchange. Im not looking at what the viewers are looking at. I think they are richer in the spirit of the occasion. There is something about calling out and celebrating nationalism for an adoring crowd. I think for a lot of people who had watched the nationalist rise to power in order to secure the civility of the people for the purpose of the aggression. It is an unsettling terrifying thing. I had forgotten how he begins its really interesting. The rhetoric about globalism and globalists in particular is often fundamentally anti somatic. They were actually without a nation. In nationalism. As a core commitment of many people around the world tends to really set to one side people who are stateless. And a lot of conspiracy theories in the 18th and 19th a century are antisemitic in the sense that they are based t the idea that there is a secret and bankers who control all the money. And people who had no National Attachments had global ties that are undermining the national borders. When the rhetoric about globalists comes back in our day and really harkens back to the long tradition there is something really interesting about that. Its not to say that there are very strenuous peaks of globalization. One of the chief criticisms. In 1990. Even into the late 1980s. Is that kind of unthinking of globalism. Certain people would be left behind by globalization. But thats okay. Its for the best. And it does make an enormouss number of financiers. I think people watching trump and who admire trump and feel recognized and seen by him are thinking about all of the ways in which globalization has been responsible for a great deal of this about the world. Its an interesting mix of their people really angry about whats going on. But for him to evoke nationalism in the way that he does. And very much to applaudap what he is presenting the organ that defines globalists in this antisemitic history. As demonic bad people. People who love the nation best they are the good people and their love is another form of patriotism. It is like a central move. In an essential step in urging people to be making make in sacrifices for the nation. That can only be asked in the interest of an authoritarian. There is a messy history on on that. There is america. And just kind of pause. What is the difference between patriotism. Liberals wont defend nationalism anymore. I think its important. To love your country. I think its important to be willing to be willing to think about your obligations your country. In the civic duty that we owe to one another. That is a thing that is central to any liberal nation. It is a small space to aqua occupy. What is a difference between a nationalist and a populist . Im not sure that it is really that interesting. In the most simple definition a populist is a politician who makes appeals directly to the people. Rather to policies or fellow elected officials. Theyre not going to appeal to congress for support. It is in the peoples interests. It seems fine. Weve a majority that governs. It certainly appealing to the people. Has a whole negative econnotation around that many scholars should say that. It is to think about thwarting the institution and in the scene the emotional support of the people for the sake of a political agenda. In the most meaningful way. When they use the sense of that. St listing the support of the people and not delivering real things to the people. It may or may not be a fair definition. They did a lot of things that were in interest of the people. Yet they were not populous. It was a more populist nature. And the particular pitch. Good afternoon. Thank you for spending some time with us on book tv. This is our indepth program. This month we are pleased to have join us from Cambridge Harvard professor jill lepore. She is the author of many booksy she received her phd in american studies in jail in 1995. In her first book came out in 1998. It was the name of war. He with american identity. Her second a book 2002 is a is for americans. Letters and other characters in the new United States. It came out in 2005 the whites of their eyes. The Tea Party Revolution in the battle over American History in 2010. The mansion of happiness a history of life and death in 2012. The story of america essays on origin also came out in 2012 b in the book of ages the life and opinions of Jane Franklin sister of Benjamin Franklin came out in 2013. I believe that one of the National Book award. The secret history of wonder woman. 2014. We will ask it about it a little later. These truths which we talked about the history of the u. S. In 2018. And this america the case for the nation last year and her most recent book is if that how the Civil Corporation in vented the future. That is a brandnew book. Will talk about that in just a minute. We want to involve you in this conversation as well. If you have a question or comment that you would like to make you can contact us via social media here are the numbers. If you live in the east and central time zone. 7 now if you want to send a text message you can do so. Just include your first name in your city if you would. And i could go to 202748, 8903. The text message number. Were also going to scroll through our social media accounts facebook you can make t,comment you can send an email we will scroll through those just remember at book tv. So jill, if then what was the corporation and im hoping im saying it correctly. And aptos candidate and up with an ocean behavioral scientists and computer scientists. They were some of, what David Halverson wouldve called the best and brightest. They are altogether in a ironic way. They had the idea that they could conduct with the early Mainframe Computers that were available in the 1950s and the ibm, 704 using a neuter gender new computer language that they could program a computer to inductive simulation of the u. S. President ial election where they can use that simulation to provide Campaign Advice to whoever the democratic nominee would be. This was 1959 expected the nomination to be stevenson and his campaign ed greenfield and most the guys worked for him had in fact worked in 1956 with Dwight Eisenhower and with the incompetent 1960 everybody expected eisenhowers Vice President , Richard Nixon to run as a republican nominee. People thought he be a formidableht candidates. Nixon was an extremely formidable cannot but a vulnerable one. But the democrats are really vulnerable because of their position on civil rights. Greenfield and his colleagues, built this machine which they call the people machine. This computer simulation of the election in order to prove to the democrats importance of engaging orders in the north and take a stronger position on civil rights. Atthat is how the company was founded. They were to the a dnc in 1959 a democratic nominee who is not at least stevenson as you know. It was john f. Kennedy. And then they went on to do pioneering work in whole bunch of other realms. Kind of the cold war of this company and its important in a lot o of ways for how it really significantly served make its kind of the back story to facebook or much that goes on at social media s today. The data mining and such. But the company did is very much the great granddaddy of so many data mining and social Media Companies today. Spew in did you find the story . Guest i found the story into thousand 15 i am with the new yorker Magazine Networks for the magazine for a long time burnham often asked to do pieces that provide the history of an institution that people think they know all k about but in fact just dont. But the historians know about. Ii was asked to write about the industry in 2015 which was very much in the news for all kinds of reasons we could go into thats a long story. It became quickly clear to me the Polling Industry was very much in decline in crisis and was largely being supplanted by data science. Protocol 3000 people in the phone and ask a bunch of questions and higher staff to do that if you could just follow them online and extractor data and figure out what their political preferences are without having to doli that. The data science is replacing and making obsolete the Polling Industry. Its one thing that was clear to me and i got really interested in figuring out when that happened and how that happens. And i came across inn a journal article the story about the corporation providing advice during election simulation for the Kennedy Campaign in 1960 and i thought oh theres the answer, this is where the turn came. And so i wrote the article. But meanwhile got really interested in this company how did i never know about this before . How come no one heard about the company . What happened to the company. Went to the archives to try to find the corporate records. The corporate records dont exist. The companys records are nonexistent. But i did find a large swath of material laid into the history of the company was at mit in the papers and the chairman of the research of the company of the political scientist at mit. So i live in cambridge. I went to the mit library and started going through these boxes of mostly un catalog papers. As an incredibly rich story about a whole lot of Different Things that this company had done. The ultimate kinds of work thats done now. And i never thought of his having origins in the cold war. And it explained a lot to me. And i did notst buy any steps plan to write history science. Its really compelling story and the characters are kinda fantastic. So yeah. Speck of the corporate records dont exist, is that nefarious . To act and have been headquartered in new york. In the new york office was run by greenfield, the album wasid president of the company he is falling considerable dissolutionti terribly tragic circumstances. He took to drinking really heavily. And was basically sleeping on peoplesg couches. And lost track, im sure heay just did not pay the rent and the stuff got shredded. Maybe is stored in the white house for a little while greenfield wouldve failed to pay the bill theres a lot of obscure companies. But people are still interested what the company had done even in 1970, 71 people rights to the mit guy imm looking for the following materials can you tell archives are questionn repeated say theyre the white houseiv in new york but then people started asking him they just got trashe trashed. Written about the strictest extra two different novels about the company came out in 19641 was in your times bestseller for a long time and everybody expected it would be made into ape film. And then it wasnt for complicated reasons for the other was a Science Fiction novel. Kind of plate into obscurity. It was made into a film by a german filmmaker in the 1970s. That was basically remade into the matrix. The matrix is a world we are all living inix assimilation rather than an actual world was a story from this 1964 is about this corporation. So in a way, we all know the story of the fictional version the more sophisticated story that was written and published in 1964 was called the 480. The title is because companies and sorted the american electorate and a 480 possible voter types. The 480 is a novel about the 1964 president ial election in which a very admirable president ial candidate really a young guy with the best of intentions is recruited to run for president and expected to lose to help the party prevail in 68 in his campaign is conducted by a computer simulation. Everything is supposed to do is been told by a computer. Its written by this guy eugene who i just love. He was like a california surfer, beach boy who went to the navy, served in the navy was a Navy War Hero and then went off to Rhodes Scholarship to become a a writer. Its written for the new yorker got a phd in the top political theory at the university of california berkeley. And there are novels. The publications are novels barely write a lot of magazine pieces as well. Because of the ugly american astonishing publishing success. It got made into a film came out in 62, during the cuban missile crisis during henry fonda as president of the United States. People may have seen its a great, great movie. They worked at greenfield in 1956 on at least evenson campaign. Works closely. Trying to help stevens with the california primary gets the democratic competitors. And then in greenville formed in 1959 he asked him to join no. He said his assistant credibly worldfamous celebrity. Was nothing he was going to take on. He was fascinated and thought it was indefensible. It would destroy american politics. So he got this former colleagues to send these topsecret documents about the company how did its work, but the Kennedy Campaign, even punch cards and stuff like in prisons. He used write a really distressing novels about the company, much of the companys dismay. And he dies tragically really young will playing doubles tennis had a terrible heart condition. People dont know anymore . Probably should not which was a beers on all the magazine as, he was the most manly. Of american political scientist literary coach figure figures. Speck party mate lets hear from our viewers but lets begin with eduardo and arlington, virginia. The three im a big fan of cspan. You talk about nationalism and i think of our country is a country of immigrants, we accepted the statue of liberty in new york city and love it. Check what american id and a whole book on the u. S. History. So i am asking, how do you think you. [inaudible] a country how has religious beliefs or practice kind of is it about the same . Are they slanting down . And my only example is on thanksgiving in 1789es president washington the day of thanksgiving to godde and president lincoln in 1863 also made the proclamation saying so thank you. Speck thank you eduardo. Thanks eduardo. The question about religious and American History but just to think a little bit about the weight you describe the country as a nation of immigrants and the importance of the meltingng pots. Each of those expressions in the 19 teens, each of those expressions and conceptions of the United States that the United States has a history. They emerge from political battles of their own day, we carry them forward and use the mineral political battles they have no history. Same with his Founding Fathers which is not used before 1960 when it is used to defend a version and original interpretation of the constitution and then progressive interpretation of the constitution. Please Founding Fathers all the time and people of said that its a political invention. The melting pots not traditional in terms so we all need to know all of the kind of caboose that follows in their wake of where those things come from. But american self perception around in particular what americans would see with Ethnic Diversity the crisis over immigration the constitution of the people. They tend to emerge. So to the practices for things like thanksgiving. The thing thats reallyin interesting to me about american pluralism and tolerance, as we are thinking about in a deep historical way , in order to gain a perspective on the current battles of religion also read about iten elsewhere. Our commitment to political toleration that is our an achent to living more Political Party, or people can speak against theeok governmen government. The political dissent is expected and in fact called for comes from the establishment of religious toleration. What comes first as tolerant people with different religious views. That makeses possible historic tolerated people different political views. That is a dissent from the 17th century. In the english t revolution. An english civil war of the 17th century. So you know, john locke lettuce on toleration in the political full villa sawph b of that. An emergence of people coming to see at the protestant reformation, that it is actually okay for people to have different ideals about religion. Someone like locke or john milton its okay, because the truth will out people can believe whatever they want. But if youel believe there is a truth in a divine sense, that will prevail. Like what is the word . Why tell people what to believe . It is no way for them, they wont believe you cant tell people what to believe and expect them to believe. People will find the truth. If it is true. It is a really in some ways a beautiful ideait makes possible and what are the english colonies, a tremendous growth in religious sect. Which the call of many parties were founded in the first place, all in the new england call see sees, many of these colonies were founded because they were byy people who could not express their religious views or practice their religion in england. This is before 1641. They come and they practice their religious views and worship the way they please and these colonies were they are distant from the forstmann of the church of england. In many cases they then also suppress other peoples religious experience. That eases up on the 17th century. Theres a proliferation. There is also an emergence enlightenment era on skepticism so you have a thomas paine by 1776 and into the 1770s and 1780s with the age of reason, preaching that he has no church. That acceptance that people can believe, they can worship their god the way they want is fundamental but emerges in the colonies which is a commitment to political toleration. And harnessing that, people can believe whatever they want to believe. They can vote for who they are going to vote for. They can even organize together as a Political Party and disagree with the people who are in power. So long as this is what its for its exactly the same basic idea as freedom of religion. Benjamin franklin writes his iapologies in 1731. Heres my job as a printer is everybodys view. Because in the end truthful win wind. When truth and error have a fight, truth always wins for this is the fundamental idea with a jury trial. People have this argument and 12 a reasonable people will decide what is right. As a printer p franklin says printed diversity of views. But my readers to be able to tell just like a jury trial. Who is right. Thats a whole set of idea of expression and political expressiones emerges. And we see it down to the bills of rights of the state. And finally the bill of rights amended to the constitution in 1791. That is the long two centuries long tradition on which are requirements that there be no religious test for officeholders in our First Amendment protections of expression come. It is the case that there was cut beginning in 1979 with the moral majority very particular evangelical christian position that have been a christian nation there could be evidence found for this all along. He goes to the path of American History and they could point to it washington said it thanksgiving is a tradition. And those are practices those are important part of American History. But the deeper and foundational commitments, the freedom of religious expression is what makes possible the freedom of political expression. All of these things seem completely fragile and base of social media. It is among the tragedies the 2t century. Lets hear from kent and atlanta, georgia. I can brace back hey there. Please go ahead. Subic how are you jill . I appreciate it very much. I work with the state legislature of georgia. And we have just finished 850, 60 year project in civics. And its going to be rolled out beginning this year. Well this is designed to get one 100 of the people to address the number one problem which is civic illiteracy of all of us. We are practicing democracy only do the pledge of allegiance and we are supposed to be using a republic or the republican form. And this is such a serious matter that many years ago a guy named Thurgood Marshall was on the supreme court. He was chief justice so worn burger. And he told us, he said civic illiteracy is so encased or pronounced. The problem is it that we dont know, the problem is we dont know that we dont know. Host can we can leave their and have professor respond to the idea of civicic literacy. My colleague daniel allen at harvard with the democratic knowledge project. I heard from people doing Civics Education all of theeo time. I write in these, ive written the book is much as american histories and oldfashioned civics textbook. I do think, i wholly support the idea that we need more and better civic education. Im always curious to think what people think is the reason we dont have it. Im curious to ask ken. Often this narrative like we used to have it used to be so great. People say did we have it wasnt so great . We urgently need it. But what it is, i think in our current political environment, sadly a source of confrontation. What we say when we need that . The president calls in a speech earlier this year that was just designed to capture the media cycle for 15 minutes. There have been many such suggestions over time. They usually associate with the single Political Party. In Civics Education is not partisan. It cannot be partisan. But americans dont know the meaning of the word nonpartisan anymore. What is that mean today . I would say i see a lot of evidence of the longtail consequences and the emphasis on Stem Education k12. Which is the follow on to the inevitable consequence of back to the cold war in the federal government funding a very particular and narrow set of research at universities to advance the National Security interest of theo cold war. That really had the effect of impoverishing every other field, the arts and the languages in particular that kind of trickle down to k12 with emphasis on Stem Education. We now see if the consequences are honestly of political culture in complete disarray. Where it is not the fault of the teacher of the school teachers, they are not asked to teach these subjects are not going to research theseo subject schools on making a authority of these subjects is not the fault of kids. The reasons for this change in the timeline. Well a related question this is a text. And a reminder if you do send a text please include your first name and your city. It is a question for jill, what is she thinkhi about the recent white house sponsored conference on exam or seeing a chin examining liberal bias in teaching americanng history . Sweet it was there an actual conference . I thought it was just a speech . I dont know peter. Sue and i think there was. What there was, what i have been hearing about and we dont have the caller on the line to query, there was a call for a National Commission of the the 1776 project. That was meant as a proposed to the New York Times 1619 project. I dont think Thehe Commission i could be b wron. Still daunting to follow all of the media stands of people taking positions to get cameras on them. So i dont know pride when i think of it . It reminds me a lot, i feel like my answers are very long. I am a storyteller. In 1965, i believe, Lyndon Johnson administration set up a bicentennial commission pre1965 was the history of the stamp ac act. And that was set off the resistance with american the declaration of independence in 1776. So they wanted to do some work to prepare for what would be the nations 200 anniversary and there would be a buildup of events between 65 and 76. What would we do in 1970 and the anniversary of the boston tea party, what we do in 1775 the anniversary of the battle of lexington congress. So we set up this commission in 1970, 1965 for the Voting Rights act. It is a heyday of the classics civil rights movement. What the Johnson Administration determine is telling the nation story anew, the 1960s and 1970s should take stock of the struggle for civil rights. Sand then it should do the kind of things that James Baldwin was asking the American People to, do which was to look squarely at the nations history of slavery, the atrocity of jim crow and the ongoing inequality and Racial Injusticesal. In fact brutality based on race. Indigenous Peoples Movement what would become of the American Indian movement was also very much reach the attention of the Mainstream Press by then. We are not too far from the alcatraz action. They died for your sins, were buried much at the height of theh early years of the Chicano Movement are the gayrights movement. So johnsons bicentennials commission was interested in telling this bigerth story. This kind of new big story. to run. Nixon inaugurated in 1969 looks at johnsons commission and this is basically what trump said about what he thinks this conspiracy of liberals to indoctrinate american schoolchildren and College Students to hate america. So, this is all from memory. Devers will say thats not exactly right, but nixon basically kicks a lot of johnsons appointees and they will have a celebration of history that is not unlike i would imagine the one trump i would imagine the one that trump is calling his 1776 project. With the 1776 project. The actual historians. That is a joke. This isnt how history happened. D you can do that president nixon. It mightve been partisan. But your reasons. Its like a comic book. This leads to a series of incredibly intense protests at the commence ration. It is march fifth. 1970s. There is a the shooting at kent state. There is a whole generation of american College Students. With that boston massacre. The revs the revolution is the war in vietnam. And not nixon with the civil rights activists. There is a huge battle in the 70s about which version of american that factoring and divide it really has really has the origins at thatts moment. There is a big celebration in boston. December 16. The businessmen get the old phone. They sell it over from england. And its gonna be at fairmont oil dumping. The whole thing is protest. This is like watergate. Im not a crook. There is a bunch of Indigenous People from new england who shop to protest the reenactors. They did a drop this out. And then there is a gay pride for tele. The very big march of Vietnam Veterans in the war. If you want to wonder when some kind of unitary motion paths chatters. To change the story of america. This has been going on for a very long time. The lack of knowledge in history. When do you find time to synthesize all the information that you have. I teach every day. What you are asked to do is to come up with explanations. And answers. And ways to help people think about problems and how they investigate something that interests them. And it is the is the gift of being able to be in the company ofmp young people. Privileged to hear david blight discuss Frederick Douglass. It reminded me of Ben Franklins admission in any of his public writings. . S it typical of the times and not as much of a slight as it seems. That is an interesting question. Those who havent read the wonderful biography. You absolutely should. We had been colleagues for a long time. Its actually an opportunity for me to correct it about my book about Jane Franklin. It was a finalist for the National Book award. So here it is worthwhile remembering that the drug douglas in 1845. Was very much influenced by the autobiography. It was published first. Not in franklins lifetime. So really is every american biography. Is to say that franklin establish the idea that the story of the autobiography will serve as an allegory with a much bigger struggle. Franklin told the story of his life. It was the new thing to do. D the biography of things. It was a new genre. With expression. And he wasnt quite current. Franklin set i was born into poverty. To go from obscurity to from poverty to prosperity. Franklin had also have the way to wealth. His work is about how to become free and prosperous. Kind of less about how to do good. For franklin if the story you are telling us how to start with nothing andbe become somebody. You do it all on your own. You shouldnt had to need everybodys help. They dont have any help. Here is how you can do this yourself. This is an agent of a lot of idleness. Rs franklin is saying just pick yourself up and actually work hard. Economic mobility. Its almost unheard of. With the exception. For the wait for that to work. It is the expression that comes to being. When they have that in the journey and arise. It includes his sister. It also includes a thousand other reasons. It was the closest correspondent. I dont think its mere convention as a plot device. Its necessary for part of that story. Its about the journey from frazier to freedom. It has not that same exact structure. For very Different Reasons he cant say who helped him. In 1845 when Frederick Douglass comes out. Hes a fugitive. Or if anybody who helps and gets caught h you would return to slavery. He cant say what help he got. It is not a plot device. He cant talk about can talk about all the help that he got. He taught them about the white woman whose taught him to read. A lot of it is illiteracy to knowledge. I cannot now recall what the why it is no part of the story. Some of it, is a 19 century convention but thats absolutely not all of it. Its quite a long answer to think about it. I would not say to the agree that it is a convention at the time. You see that all the time. And every Silicon Valley entrepreneur. It is a big piece. Have you seen the movie boy state. Its a documentary. That one a grand jury prize. Every state has a summer camp for political peak. And one of the characters in it who is a really appealing character. Its High School Boys who want to go into politics. He keeps talking. About how he is a selfmade man. Between shots hes always on the cell phone talking to his mother. You are incredibly appealing young man. Of american individualism that we do acknowledge. In particular we dont acknowledge women. Its unbelievably maddening. Just to say. Its not 18th century. L ere is something thats very much so. They have the National Book award finalist. That they published in 2013. Monroe via california. Please go ahead with your question for joe lepore. Thank you professor. I was a little bit nervous calling into a television show. I noticed on apple books. And for people like myself. It makes it more accessible. And even for my friends that are there. Can you go back to harvard can you ask the other professors to put most of their books on audiobooks so its this was more accessible people like myself. I thought your finish. Thank you for that. As a person who listens to a lot of books. I listened to it all the time. I love audio storytelling. Most of my books i think since the book of the secret of wonder woman. I had been a narrator of those audiobooks. I would say, no all writers should be doing that. Some people are not good at it. Pl i love hearing from listeners who listen to the book and only listen to the books who are read by the writers. I think its a cool thing. You might be interested to you can listen to this for free anywhere. That is my exploration of the nature of truth. It tends to solve the mystery of the radio drama. I wish i could tell you that my colleagues would do something effective yesterday. We have a follow followup text hear from someone. What is jills typical work schedule for writing books. Most of my work habits date to when i was a kid. We all had to work a lot of jobs. This is very ben franklin ask. I always have a lot of places i could get some reading done. I do a lot of things and a frantic pace. Its really nice for me that i ended up having a job that is basically reading. For me, how i handle it. Ive a lot of different demands on my time. Mainly i im a teacher. Its not always clear that that is the case. I generally at the beginning of the month. I get out a calendar. In the olden days it was a piece of paper. He i does mark up everything that i have to do. And all of the Committee Meetings i have to go to. The department meetings. And i try to the degree that i can to move things into particular days and then every day that im not teaching here. I just put a big w over the day. That is a writing day. If someone says, i would like to meet with you on tuesday lets go for lunch or i want to go for a run. I can say, im sorry im completely tied up. I think a problem for a lot of academics as they have a lot of control over their own time. All the other things you have to do will take that up. My priority is to be able m to meet with students. I just protect. The main thing i do is protect my writing time from other kinds of things. A lot of people say yes to a lot of things like this spending two hours doing this is nothing i would ordinarily do. I can spend my time with my family. If im not writing. Weve been trying to get you on for quite a while. We do appreciate your time today. There is a publication how to write a paper for this class and one of the opening sentences is. To write history is to make an argument by telling a story about dead people. Youll be dead one day to so please play fair. And remember it never conned her son. Its probably bad enough being dead without some smart alec using your life and times to make a specious claim. Do you still hand this out to students. Teachers ask for all the time. You read back to this. This is when the teaching course on the american revolution. It was said to find an actual ourson who had left behind a the subcultures. Or some body of work that could be investigated. An answer what have been the big question about the american revolution. When we upended the political order. And so, students would do this work. I would get drafts of their papers someone like Jane Franklin or Benjamin Franklin. Or thomas jefferson. Or joseph brant. Whoever. They would treat them as if they were not human beings. To be on to say their lives. And to go behind the curtain. And then the student would say whatever. They would quote them and then beat them up about what they just had them say. I was baffled by this. M its not like math when youre doing approve these were people. These were children. They have child birth pains. They are human beings. It seems so brilliant. With a determined and hide a hardworking is frustrating to see how we see this to one another in the world. To make use of other people. Im not on social media. Thats what people would do. Thanks for holding. You are on with professor joe lepore. I think this is the longest hold ive ever had on i think this is the longest hold ive ever had on they really do insert thoroughly. And thank goodness students had you as a teacher. And your writing has been wonderful. It was recommended to me by one of my second grade students from 30 years ago. He was in new zealand doing graduate work. And he wrote me. E have you read the truths. I have read a book of ages. I have not gotten to these truths yet. Talk about writing. I think with the old students from 30 years ago its a real gift to now that my student found you. Before i ever told you about told them about you. Bo the book is ages i think and it is the reason why i went on to wonder woman. The subject of course fascinated with the sister. And the bifocals in the glasses and all of that. Nk i would never had picked up unless you had been the author. And hello to your student out there. It is like the terror of how i told them. Its something that i stumbled across in the archive. I would not had thought out about wonder woman. I wasnt like a wonder woman fan as a kid. I had watched all of the lousy superhero movies. S that has been my experience. Sometime back. 2011 cast your mind back to september 11 in the primary season. The large number of republicans. With ron paul. The nominations. And planned parenthood had been in the news a lot. Of the conservative arm of the Political Party. Each of those head pledged i liink it was from the Susan B Anthony list. I have an assignment from the new yorker to write the history of planned parenthood. Why is it an issue in the republican contest. I started researching that story and the papers of planned parenthood in the organization. And make sure that they have the papers. Meanwhile i was writing an essay they have a legal history workshop. When i teach the class at the harvard law school. I decided. Did i want to write a history about that. It was invented it was the guy named martin. I was really excited to write an essay about him. But i went into wikipedia. They had been to the lie detector test. In 1941 he created the comic book that is the best one ever. There was no meaningful scholarship. And no explanation of how they were connected to one another. When i went to the planned parenthood papers. I kept coming across the sky. It turns out that the sister ethel byrne. Had founded planned parenthood with her. But that all of was there in a threeway marriage. That is like too interesting to not read about. Until i came to a conclusion. That it was too important to not write a book about. Pretty early on i wrote to a wonderful generous man. And where the family papers were. The family had notot shared. Because of the very unconventional family story which was a scandal. Was a very well hidden secret. With a powerful moment that i was at smith. I have done all the research. It was called birth rate. I wanted to do this thing about wonder woman. And i met in the office of one of the curators of the t library. And asked some questions about looking through the magazine collection. Usually they know. I sat down with this wonderful woman. I just found some questions. Im looking in this. With there be any papers in this box. About 257. Is there a file or a box. We went through all of this. Im scribbling everything down. And then she looks at me and pauses her job in the literal things. They nearly jumped out of the o chair. I looked at her andr i said with the archival research. This was the thing that was hidden about the complicated Family History between that. Itd down to our own day. It was just an exciting thing. Ive given the longest one yet. Arent they being exercised from planned parenthood at this point. A speemac speemac that was a short answer. I know thats true. Lets hear from bill from kansas city missouri. Thank you so much. You look like you are enjoying it as much as the viewers are. I was a champion of your work going all the way back to the name of war and a little bookstore in vermont. Im still a champion of your work in my capacity as an elderly librarian here in kansas city. Ive always wanted to ask you or someone else the extent to which you rely on the talent and the curiosity of your students to assist you in the mechanics of fact checking. Finding documents. You have talked several times this morning i think you even used the phrase the gift. Of connecting with a curious interesting young folk. And as a geezer i am so excited when i see a sparkle in some Young Persons eye. A longwinded question. It seems to be the calling card today. I was a bookseller for 28. The three women i wanted to date before that were bonnie ray, meryl streep. Whatever that is worth. We will leave that there. Joe, whats your answer. I learned from students in a thousand different ways. I know there plenty of historians that had i generally dont. There are some notable exceptions where i just cant do what needs to be done. I rely to a huge degree. Its the time of digitizing the collections. I also had experience for then. Lo i did not had time giving the teaching schedule. To take a trip to princeton. I looked at the Natalie Stevens papers. Th i could see that there was a photo about greenfield and company. That is the case you can write and say i would like to see that folder. And actually works out well. And now it is scanned. That is the way that they get resources. Not every library can do that. I rely on that kind of time. I think they need something really fast. People will find it. It is incredibly generous. Thats the thing that they have now. But when i wrote this book i found it at nyu. Maybe as a dozen notebooks. Do they look like a mottled calf. That were a diary. Handwritten diary. Really expensive. I went down and took a day and took one full day. They have the resources. I took that day. I did some other research. But i did not had time to transcribe all that was really related to handwriting. It seems like they were available to do that work. In instances like that lecture fellow they have the incredibly Generous Research program. It will pay this salary of up to for assistance. I was working on my podcast in the last archive. I ended up hiring five undergraduate when we were wasing on a podcast it totally different. They were brilliant and incredible. Is so much fun and creative. Thats where its really good for students. To talk about Research Agenda and to talk about what they found. Brainstorm on story ideas. We are doing the Second Season of the last archive right now. I have the budget to hire people. But also,an i really like doing the archival work myself im sad if i cant do it. I am a little bit too controlling probably for that kind of stuff incorporate them into your work. Did the history of his life exist. He was a deranged homeless man. He claims to rewrite the history. History of our time. He provoked that it would be the longest book ever written w he would write down every word that he ever heard. He carried them all around. It was said to be incredible then it was merely a fiction of his. I was teaching a class on how to write a biography. And it is actually an object lesson. Incredibly wonderful vivid writer. Its so long i dont even remember. Maybe it was 42. The middle of the dark days of the war. He says hes writing this book. Mitchell published basically every traction. The book did not exist. It was a deranged imagination. They didnt reveal that at the timeth i was in some way already imagining that we are writing a book that we will never finish. We are always hoping to do something we can never quite achieved. The elusiveness a great art. I assigned this to my undergraduates. On the talk aboutcl biography. The original story they have a well in the pocket of his jacket. Two of you should go to harvard. Literally prepping for class and i thought my students are going to say. If mitchells whole think is the book and never existed. Because he couldnt find it. He died in 1957. It ended up in harvard in this catalog. To get ready for class i went to the library to look for it and i found all of this other stuff everything that mitchell said. And i just kind of fell down that rabbit hole of needing to find out whether the book existed in michels line the first time or whether it didnt exist. Select necessarily line. I was ong, the hunt for the book. And supposedly it was never written. I did find that. And mitchells papers which have only begin begun in the library. It was incredibly thrilling. Its not really a book. If i can ask you to get more in the middle of the camera we dont want to lose you. We dont want to lose that as we hear from ariel in portsmouth new hampshire. Ariel, please go ahead. Thank you for taking the call i appreciate the fact that youve cut this you kept this program for so many years. Dr. Jill lepore. I dont want to engage in a rational discussion. I wonder why so few if any academic historians spend any time dealing with the genocide committed against American Indians native inhabitants of north america and specifically when youre talking about the 1693 project. And the conservative project. They talk about restitution for slavery. And for example in the 1693 project. Nobody ever talks about restitution for native americans to return to their lands or to at least something to it. What is it that inhibits the documents of violence to address this issue that is the fundamental the foundational issue for north america. I think you. For north america. I think you. I know you dont want to log answer. Or historical graphical one. I would just dispute. The premise of your question. The historians dont engage in immoral examinationou of the genocide. I think of the richest. Of scholarship came on the 500th anniversary. Throughout the 1990s in the late 1980s. There was an extraordinary proliferation of research a whole world of books that are published. The conquest within. The extraordinary research into the economic cycle. In the military explanations. There is an extraordinary amount of Research Done in that time is also a case of in digital study programs. An incredibly in incredibly vibrant art. Of academic life. I do see what you mean about the reparations argument as discourse. Public it has a prominence in discourse. That is expressed at least in the monument. Coupling kind of world. It is the same discourse with regard with what is to be done with the reckoning not only with of course the genocide. In the dispossession. But the manifold but trail and the ongoing injustice. And the denial of nations. The abuse of the native land. The Police Brutality against Indigenous People which is greater than as a proportion of the population than any other group. There is a whole lot to study there. There are howon a lot of people doing that work. I would dispute that. What is different in many ways analytically between the call for examining slavery and jim crow and the new gym crow arguments. With that one big bundle of things. The studyti of the set colonialism. And the disposition of the location and the assimilation. The civil rights struggle in the United States generally fits with them. Is the kind of critiques we made at the civil rights leader. It was a larger american narrative. And seeking sole citizenship and equality. Whereas for many native people and is not rights as american citizens. Is that recognition of indigenous nations. It doesnt fit so well in the larger narrative of the american seeking rights. And seeking full equality and citizens. An equal justice of the law. That analytically is a different thing. Now i have given you far more than you have wanted to hear. A followup email on that from a wg be are the initials. Will u. S. History Going Forward be exclusively about Racial Injustice marginalization and other narratives which define us only in terms of victims. It is not that now. I dont recognize that as the world in which that is how history is taught. I remember years ago. I was working on a book by the tea party movement. I watched a lot of the history of the education on fox news. Glenn beck if you recall when the show started in 2009 tuned toward his studio until little schoolroom. And they would they would do the many lectures on the american revolution. They kept talking about the indoctrination of the american schoolchildren. The United States have committed atrocities. The story of america it was a story of Racial Injustice. At third grade at the time. It is a very liberal city. G d watch the kids do what they were doing. They were breaking into groups to talk about that revolution. I wrote about it. Here the kids were doing the most conventional things. Like what were the objections. The sons of liberty want to make peace with the king. When did they change their mind . The basic civics history. It is to me largely mythical to include also in that struggle that there were petitions sent by enslaved people. You guys believe national rights. Thats part of that story. The problem of the generations of authority and urine book tv with author jillr lepore. Thank you so much for what you do. I love what youre doing. Im sure its not easy. Joe, im in the Pacific Northwest what i can tell you about whats going on here. We have the brandnew female Lieutenant Governor who was actually know when you much about her when she was elected this year. Idaho is can have women. She went far right and is kinda clear. In the civil war here. Between the Republican Party in the state and a lot of people are just listening to the herd. With paulette joe at end as a democrat. A native American Woman who is really popular. What we had been seen here this region never really had the slavery issue we were not even states at that point during the civil war. We did not have the protests and everything going on. Is pretty exciting. What i can tell you is women are really taken over. They are rising around here. From what i can tell you. My new dr. As a woman. They have a judicial around here. I think we have the idea. Lets hear from the professor. To make there has been a lot the has captured your attention. I know you and a lot of people think differently. With the womens political information. Just how hard it is. They expected them to vote. Something about being seen with the particular kind of political sympathy. And there is a big reason why i have to vote like everyone else does. People in their and their family and their f neighborhood. It makes it so they gain the right to vote. It turns out over the last few elections that there are some political sympathies. They were never a part of a kind of agenda for women. They think it is the 1980s that the gender gap is coined to talk about voter preference and that female voter lack of enthusiasm. In that kind of a gap in many elections since. At the moment, black female voter that has captured the imagination of the political press. As the new voter too much. I am less convinced in the ategoriesh. That they are all that define a but thats a whole other story. And part of that story is told in these truths. It was founded in found in the 30s. It was the First Political Consulting Firm ever created in the u. S. Linda is in Melbourne Beach florida. Please go ahead with your questions. Hi. I have a question here and had to turn down the tv and just talk into your telephone. Tunt listen to anything else. I have a question i have a comment. Im 70 years old and back in the 70s i ask my grandmother a lot of questions about my familys history and the grandfather and greatgrandfather both fought in the civil war. And she talked about the things that they talked about one was gettysburg. And everything like that. And what i learned from what she said. They were certain rules of what a man was and what a man did. And i think it is wrong to judge history based on the way we think today. I think we have been able to celebrate how far weve come. The question is unfortunately i got lost. How would i Risk Research that. And also her comment judging previous history. Thank you so much linda. I love the enthusiasm for your family. One of the best methodsyo would be for the t research tools. And they had even more searching tools how well that be dissolved. And dont hurry because it will be more. I write to the dedication. It is not the job of the historian to be more or less. And i really believe that. It is our instinct to judge one another ruthlessly. Its one of the chief problems of our politics. I think personally spending a lot of time relitigating the pack has path has a real limit to utility. I once have a long conversation those who are outraged about something. What do you think is. Driven in a car. We got to the point where they were at the message. With the date ofmo into that point. And the person that they were indicting. We will be judged by future generations by having destroyed the earth. There is very little that is worse than what we have done. It makes it i think a very extraordinarily active audacity and then people. Not to say that we are involved with thinking about right and wrong. That is the obligation as people as part of our duty to one another. That is a good reason to study the past. People are not actually better in the present. With institutions that do a better job with protecting them from the worst impulses. We had rights and nationstates to protect those states. We have things that make it much better to be a human being than in many previous centuries for sure. Unless we protect those institutions we will just be there with previous generations. People themselves were not there. They came out in 2005 in the book you will learn that one in four new yorkers at one point was an enslaved person. You will learn about how wallho street was built and founded. Neil, beachwood ohio. I had two related questions i believe i saw on a commentary from western lepore the first question is do you believe that is awarded in the 2017. To Mark Zuckerberg was justifiable. Given that faith has a reputation for being the greatest transmitter with disinformation in the world. And that he has a pension for that. And if were also out of time with your second question. Do you believe it is wise for the University President s to sit on corporate boards. Corporate influence in colleges. I think an interview was the Higher Education recently. I made a talk about corporate influence. Im happy to be public with the disposition. Im a very vocal opponent. I know people who are involved in this by the way of facebook. They are tremendously good people. I have a quite strong view about that. We have a minute and you have to answer this question in one minute. This is from tom in venice florida. We read you regularly. I was one of the best of many that i read. I just started these truths. What contemporary fiction writers do you appreciate. We head about 30 seconds. The lingering of losses i think it was really too personal essays that were ever published. Im really happy when people mention it. It was unusual thing for me to do. And good for you for starting nonfiction. I dont read a ton of contemporary literary fiction and i dont read as much as i used to. I love baby smith. And i read a lot of older stuff. Im kind of exhausted with the nonfiction that i have to read. I really love and enjoy that. The most recent book is called if that the history of this symbol the cinematics corporation. And we appreciate yours in your familys time today on book tv. Youre watching book tv on cspan two. Every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. Donald trump junior offers his thoughts on what he calls liberal privilege on our Author Interview program afterwards, former cia director, john brennan talks about his life and career. And former second Lady Lynn Cheney chronicles the leadership