Post [inaudible] it was a late night and early morning. My god. [laughter] the Washington Post. Give the viewers a thumbnail of what you wrote today. I think some, the Vice President , mike pence, came on with a case that he wanted to make against joe biden and the Democratic Party and Kamala Harris but what undermines the case is the person he works for, President Trump. That was obvious from the getgo weather discussion focused on the coronavirus pandemic and administrations handling of it and the Vice President asked to recycle statements the president has made repeatedly over many months, which he deemed himself as telling what they claim a isa great record against all the evidence how this country has a much higher death toll than any major industrialized country in the world. And as for senator harris and moderator susan page asked why is that the case, it was a tough night for him to try to do what he wanted to do. The administration, the campaign, the trump folks would like to try to make this a choice, not a referendum, but we were reminded again last night it is a referendum on the president of the united states. So, let me get your thoughts on something. Theres a lot of comments made about the fact that none of the questions asked by the moderator, susan page, were actually answered, particularly from Vice President mike pence. But i think each candidate had a question that they were asked that they visibly dodged when it comes to Vice President mike pence, it was the idea of accepting a peaceful transfer of power and for senator harris, it was the question about adding members to the Supreme Court in response to a confirmation, and expected confirmation of judge Amy Coney Barrett. Do you think they both dodged the questions and it would hurt either campaign . Not particularly, but i thought it was quite revealing on both their parts. I say not particularly important because, jonathan, the electorate in this country for the most part people have made up their minds about where they stand, and people are already voting without necessarily watching these debates were even in spite of watching the debates. But i thought those were both very important moments. The issue of pledging a peaceful transfer of power is about an easy a question a politician can get, and i think the mike pence that existed before he became Vice President would have had no trouble answering that in the affirmative. I think his problem is the president will not commit to that and he is intentionally loyal to him often to a fault and i think that makes it impossible for him to do what probably in his gut is the thing he should do which is to say yes we will abide by the results of this election. I thought for senator harris, she also is following the lead of the person at the top of the ticket. Vice President Joe Biden has resisted answering this question since it came up, the nomination, or actually since the vacancy after the death of justice ginsburg. The fact that he will not answer it is obviously telling of the fact she wouldnt do it last night is also telling. Its a pretty straightforward question. Would you do it and would you consider it. He doesnt want to answer that because he know that it would stir controversy. He will have to deal with that issue if judge Amy Coney Barrett is confirmed and he becomes president , because there will be pressure from the a lot of parts of the Democratic Party to do exactly that. You know, since before we came on a air, the commission of the president ial debates announced that the next president ial debate that was supposed to be in miami is going to be virtual. Youve covered many debates over your career. What do you think that will do to the tenor and tone of that president ial debate . Well, that and what happened last week are likely to make the tone of the coming debate somewhat closer to what last night was. But so much of it will depend on how the president decides to conduct himself. If he comes in again determined to, you know, to be super aggressive, then we might have a repeat. I think its a little harder when they will be in different locations. Its just harder to conduct that kind of performance when you are remote. So, we will see. Ive said to people debates depend upon the attitude of the participants. If people come to the debate it they will debate if they choose to come to be disrupted, they will be disruptive. They will do what they think is in their political interest, so i think we will have to wait and see what the president decides he wants to do in the next debate, but it will certainly feel different. The citizens in the town hall will be in miami as well the moderator for the debate, but the two principles will not be. They will be in different locations. Last night, you know people always talk about and i think you may have mentioned this Vice President ial debates dont usually have that much of an impact. But last night, because the two principles of the campaigns are both in their 70s, do you think people were looking at this debate and looking at these two candidates as potential president s and do you think they succeeded in telegraphing that message, particularly senator Kamala Harris who compared to Vice President mike pence is still relatively unknown in that regard . I think it would have been impossible for most people to watch that debate and not think about the fact that one of the two could end up as president before 2024. I mean, you are dealing with two older men with some Health Issues, particularly the president right now, but Vice President biden has had Health Issues in the past. So i think everybody that came to that debate was looking at them with that in mind. I also think that really from the beginning, since she was nominated or chosen by Vice President biden to be the running mate, senator harris is seen as somebody capable and ready to be president if shes asked to step in. I think that her background, her record, the fact she has run for president , that helped equip her to pass that bar and so i think last nights performance only probably reinforced that with the public. Im going to end our discussion here with a grave question and that is in all of your years of political reporting conventions, debates, president ial campaigns, have you ever seen a situation as surreal as a fly landing on a candidates head in the middle of the most important moment of their career . I cant remember. There may well have been. They are strange creatures with open halls. But i cant remember one. And particularly laughing. A fly landing on the head of a whitehaired man. There was no missing what was happening. Whether the Vice President , if he knew he was well composed perhaps he didnt even realized what happened. Twitter being what it is, the fly had a twitte twitter accound thousands of followers within moments of that happening. We have to go. Thank you very much as always for coming on a first look this morning. Thanks, jonathan. Lets go over to the opinion side of the paper will you will find my colleagues Editorial Page Editor ruth marcus and contributing columnist mark thiessen. [inaudible] [laughter] you know what, im so sorry, karen. Thank you so much. [laughter] already off the rails. Well, you know what, i just saw about seven minutes ago President Trump was on fox news business, and he said hes not going to participate in a virtual debate as we were just talking about with dan balz earlier, the commission of president ial debates announced the next debate that was supposed to be in miami between President Trump and Vice President joe biden will be virtual. Now the president is saying hes not going to participate in a virtual debate. Lets start with you, mark. Obviously he can do that but is it to his advantage, should he show up given where he is in the polls . If the doctors clear him, there is no reason to have a virtual debate. So its simple, either his doctors said that he is not transmitting disease and hes okay, or hes not. So there is a little bit going on here but he does need to participate because he doesnt want the last debate to be the impression people had of him on the debate stage. So it is in his interest and its in the American Peoples interest to have the candidate in person to debate. Its the debate commissions call. I think at this point, the president was in the oval office yesterday, something that raised a lot of eyebrows among health experts. It shouldnt be just a question of his doctors. It should be a question of what Public Health experts believe because if he shows up and its not just his own health at risk as we are seeing in whats going through the white house right now. Let lets talk about last nights debate. I will start with you, your impression of last nights debate and did this move the needle in any way . I think not. There were few if any moments expect for the appearance of a fly. I think basically it reinforces both sides and it was really the trump mike pence ticket that need a reset if you look at the polls in this moment. In that sense [inaudible] i think that mike pence, donald trump should watch the video how he handled himself. He anticipated every attack Kamala Harris came up with and had an answer ready and i think that he was very effective. But Kamala Harris probably one because number one, she didnt make any catastrophic mistakes that can be used against her and joe biden and number two, the one candidate changing the trajectory of the race, so i think mike pence did an outstanding job, but donald trump needs to really study the way he did it and particularly he knew what the lines of attack were going to be and he waited and let her say the things he was then going to read that. Donald trump didnt let joe biden get a word in so he didnt let him walk into any traps. I think trump needs to learn from this and joe biden is going to do more damage to himself and donald trump is going to do by interrupting. Do you agree did he win onpoint . I think that they were both pretty cautious. They were essentially playing defense for their principles and so i think it is kind of hard to score a debate on this point where essentially you have two surrogates debating onpoint in that sense. I want to get your reaction. I saw lots of traffic on twitter particularly towards the end of the debate and theres been quite a bit of commentary going on in the morning after the debate. Talking about Vice President mike fences demeanor and his demeanor towards the moderator, susan page of usa today, and his opponent, senator Kamala Harris. Folks have called it condescending, mans explaining. Im trying to find the other words. But from your perspective, how did you view is manner and tone and demeanor when it came to the women that were on the stage with him . These are things we sometimes dont fully understand for a day or two after debate but i think there was a danger here. He did two things. He completely ignored a female moderators efforts to enforce rules that both of the campaigns had agreed to and also ignored what the questions were. They both did that to some extent, but i think pence more so. Im skeptical that this is the kind of thing suburban women sitting there watching at home, and this is a big constituency the campaign is struggling with, would necessarily find that appealing. I just want to read from this piece in the Hollywood Reporter where a person writes mike pence appeared obnoxious, condescending and not altogether present at the moment as he ran over the women on the stage and kept addressing issues the moderator moved on from. If trump did his best to get his picture under the definition of alpha male in the dictionary last week, mike pences portrait might be found under mansplainer. Do you not think he hurt himself in that mission of trying to get suburban women to come back to President Trump, suburban white women to be specific . That analysis is a huge stretch. The reality is he treated the moderator the way he would have treated a male moderator and the fact that he didnt exactly answer the questions he was asked or what you see is the opportunity to go back, any of us that have watched president ial and Vice President ial debates, everybody does that. Its nothing different. By the way, Kamala Harris did the exact same thing. The first question she was asked is what would you do differently come january than the Trump Administration and she didnt answer. She refused repeatedly to say whether the administration would pack the Supreme Court. So they are holding to the same standard and it should be irrelevant to scoring the debate. Is it irrelevant, to my mind its not, what do you think . I dont. I think one of the dynamics here is that this is the first time that a woman of color has been on a National Political party ticket and it was also susan page, you know, is a female moderator. I just dont think that women watching this are going to, and especially given the struggle the Trump Campaign has had with white women voters, suburban especially collegeeducated. I just dont think people are watching this with this kind of, you know, filter that doesnt take into account gender and race. Let me get you both to talk about what you think were the high points and low points for each candidate. What was Vice President mike pence is best moment, and also what was the best moment for senator harris . I think in both cases it was his defense i think actually he was ready for the questions. He wasnt necessarily telling the truth, but he had the line of attack, and i think herders were more when she would go after the questions that involved what kind of country we are. In both cases, they were very much reflecting the case that was job number one for their principal. I think for harris low point, its something she didnt say. The first question was about whether, about the pandemic and unlike susan page, she never said we wish the president a speedy recovery or anything she Just Launched into an attack and i think the absence of that wasnt glaring and didnt take much to do that. I agree that the Vice President was ready and very effective when she tried to blame and he quoted the chief of staff saying that they completely blew it. They did Everything Possible wrong during the swine flu pandemic and it was just pure luck that millions of people didnt die, that there was a picture of the ineffectiveness of response to a pandemic and then of course the Supreme Court. This is such a central issue to the election, the democratic line, that they they have to decide about this but they will not tell the American People, this is now two debates in a row they refused to answer the question will you pack the court. Such an unprecedented idea. 150 years we had nine justices if they want to turn this into a referendum they need to answer the questions. In terms of not answering the question, does it not to disturb you Vice President mike pence like his boss, President Trump, refused to answer if they would accept a peaceful transfer of power. He didnt answer that question last night. Sure. He should have answered that. What about Vice President mike pence . Of course, but i think this whole thing about a peaceful transfer of power is a little hysterical. The Supreme Court, this is litigated, the Supreme Court is going to decide. Theres going to be a bush v gore decision and its going to be enforced. Theres not a single chance, there wont be troops in the streets and violent opposition to donald trump leaving the white house if he loses. I think the question of packing the courts is a little hysterical, tomac. If Joe Biden Takes Office packing the court is it would be such an extreme measure that would take such a huge, huge legislative and legal left. I think its one of those out there perhaps to the left but its not likely to happen. So i actually think that, you know, the Biden Campaign is wise not to address it. In order to add judges to the court, not only would joe biden have to win the presidency, but the democrats would have to take over the senate and thats just the politics of the electoral piece of it. Then lets say that were to happen, the politics as karen said of getting that done would be a huge left. Mark, you were very kind to point out a low note for senator harris. Could i get you to articulate a high point. What did she do well last night . She prosecuted the case on covid very effectively. I thought she made a lot of points. Her handling of the covid pandemic was the most effective paints she made and she kept the debate focused for a while on that subject, which is where the Biden Harris Team wants to keep the debate going. As long as we are talking about covid, then biden and harris are winning and if we talk about the economy and Supreme Court, i think trump and mike pence are winning so she did that effectively and most importantly, she didnt make any major errors. When you are ahead, if you dont blow it, if you dont blow the lead, then you win. Karen, this is the only Vice President ial debate that there is going to be. There are supposed to be two other president ial debates. As i talked with dan in the opening of the show or just towards the opening of the segment, the news broke that President Trump said he wouldnt take part in a virtual debate. How confident are you that we are actually going to have two more debates in this president ial cycle . I think we will and i also think that the challenge with the virtual debate is the town hall forum. So, how you sort of zoom or whatever they do for the situation, give the viewers a real sense of genuine interaction between the candidates and ordinary voters. Its going to be a challenge. But i dont think that its attainable for either candidate to walk away from the debate. Do you agree with that . I do 100 . I think they have to have the debate and donald trump is going to have to participate. I think they should be in person. Its a very simple question is he medically clear and if he has negative tests for covid, there is no reason to not do it in person. If there is a positive then of course do a virtual debate. But isnt it important to know when the president s last negative test was, and thats information that the white house isnt releasing. Its not relevant to the debate. Its relevant generally, i mean, his last negative test, yes they ripped open right before the debate. If he has a negative test yes. Do we know for sure when the president s last test was, the last reporting i saw is we dont exactly know when that was, or do i have that wrong . We do not know when it was. The other thing is i think its not just the president s health thats at issue here. If there are other people in that room, the president s team is going to have to continue to wear masks inside, which they did not, at that first debate. And its interesting last night, karen went on stage with no mask. There are many, many other issues that have to be taken into account and that the trump team is going to have to agree to for this to take place. We have two more president ial debates and less than what day is this, 26, 27, 26 days before election day. This president ial election is Something Like ive never seen so you cant even predict whats going to happen. What are you looking for in the next 26 days as they are aware the president ial campaign is going. I will start with you, karen. I think the course of the coronavirus is right now the biggest determining factor of what remains this election season. I agree. I think that donald trump has an opportunity so far he has not seized to take his personal experience with covid and turn it around. I think that he tried to do with the other day with a video he put out where he talked about the therapeutics that he took, which was developed under operation warp speed and how impressive it was in terms of saving his own life and restoring his health and the fact that they should make it available for free to every american that wants or needs it, but keep in mind we are going to get a Third Quarter economic report which is going to put the economy back front and center and we are probably going to have double digit economic growth. So that might put the economy back into the conversation which is important. One last question with less than two minutes left. In terms of covid and the impact on the administration, the president and first lady are not the only two people who tested positive for the coronavirus, but there are more than a dozen may be right now two dozen people on the staff whove tested positive. The joint chiefs of staff are in quarantine. How concerned should the American People be about the continuity of government when the coronavirus seems to be exploding within the upper ranks of the federal government . I will start with you and and with karen. I think we need to be concerned about the fact a lot of people have gotten sick and very important positions but at the same time, we have plenty of continuity plans in place. I dont think if anything first of all the president now that he is have the virus and recovered from it he will have some level of immunity for the immediate future so i dont think we have a situation where he isnt going to be able to execute the power of his office. I think however the president s behavior at a moment where we all know hes on powerful drugs including steroids is going to continue to receive scrutiny. I think some of these middle of the night thunderstorms are not exactly restoring confidence in the public. But again, the baseline normal behavior isnt exactly, you know, [inaudible] these all iwe saw in full afe debate in cleveland. Weve got to go. Thank you so much for coming on the Washington Post live first look at the first and only Vice President ial debate and a whole lot of other subjects. Thanks, you guys. And thank you for watching. Washington post live will be back at 10 a. M. Eastern for a special event about primary care in the time of covid19. And friday former democratic candidate president will be here to discuss his new book. You can learn about these events and more at Washington Post live. Com. And as always, opinion writer for the Washington Post. Thank you for watching Washington Post live first look. Have a good morning