The discussion now on the 25th amendment. Our guest inn a law professor at Michigan State university. You wrote on friday morning that the law is clear about handling president ial illness but it can get murky fast. Talk about what is clear. The 25th amendmenter gives procedures for transferring power from the president to the Vice President things get murky if the president contests thein cabinet and things get really problematic if the president and Vice President are both incapacitated because then we have a lot of gaps in the law. You watch this unfold since friday. What concerns you the most . I think again there is an area where the president might think that he is able and its hard to know how the president is doing and what the side effects of the medication might be. Still not incapacitated enough that the 25th amendment was necessary going to kick in. But theres a potential were the president has been paired but not incapacitated and that is what worries me most now when we moved to the Vice President ial debate. I think as long as he is careful and safe and observes precautions because the 25th amendment only provides for transferring power to the Vice President and not down further the line of succession so it could get very problematic. The point of the succession and continuity we have is to make it clear who is in charge and if the Vice President gets in paired, that clarity could an instant. When was the 25th amendment added and how many times has it been invoked . It was passed in congress 1965 and it was in the works before the kennedy assassination and the Vice President becomes president if the president dies or resigns or is removed. That had never been clear. Section two was used when ford succeeded nixon when spiro agnew designs and general ford became Vice President and when ford became president once by president reagan when he had surgery on his colon and was under anesthesia and then twice by george w. Bush when he had colonoscopies and was fully sedated for that and transferred power for a couple of hours. Section four when people talk aboutal invoking the amendment, that is the only part of the amendment that has never been invoked. The Vice President and cabinet have never declared unable except on tv. Talking with the law professor at Michigan State university about the 25th amendment. Taking phone calls and questions. If you are in the eastern and central time zones, 7488000 is the number. In the mountain and pacific time zones, 202 7488001. I should note the book, unable the long politics and limits of section four of the 25th amendment. A good time to ask your questions about the 25th amendment. Charles is up first out of Columbia South carolina, good morning. I have two Major Concerns about illness when you look at joe biden he looks like hes slowed down so much from just maybe five years ago. So im concerned he doesnt make it through the first term if elected. And then im concerned about electing harris. I talked to some of my friends about this. What happens if joe biden cadaver joe if he had a serious illness that incapacitates him, atin what point does harris step in to remove him from president and i have a major concern we will not be able to move him out of office if hes incapacitated. You raise an important distinction which is when they declared a president unable, the president is not removed from office. This is a temporary provisional transfer of power, so theres the process where the president can contest that and in that instance he would take power back, unless the Vice President and the cabinet and two thirds of the house and the senate agree he is not able but even then he wouldnt be removed from office. He could keep trying again to return. But the issue of the cognitive decline is one i cover in the book. It is if a president has a condition that is degenerative, if he isnt going to get better, then ideally what would have been, for most of the president would recognize that and either invoke Section Three or redesign the bar is high. We are talking about incapacity so if the president has lost the steps over the years and forgets things, that isnt what section four is about. Its about when theres no one in charge. So there is a gap there. I cant comment on the conditions. Im not an expert on that, but i do know that the system we have in place does set the bar very high. What is the definition of discharge the duties of the office. The term unable but doesnt define it. Instead, it tells us who decides and by structuring the process, saying who decides and how many of them need to agree. It flushes out the standard in that way. Like if i were president i would be unable. He would probably maintain his power. Again it is only if the substantial members of his own party, only if all of those people think that he shouldnt be there so what that does again is raises the bar very high. Its more votes than you need for impeachment. Reyou only need a simple majoriy in the house, not two thirds. So this isnt alternative. Its the ability of total incapacitation. And so, again it could mean a lot of things but given the decisionmakers, it means incapacity. Host savanna, illinois. You are on with professor. Good morning, cspan. My question is god forbid if one of the president ial candidates should die for some reason before november 3rd, what would they do then . With the Vice President on the ticket automatically be the one chosen, i just dont know what we should do. Its too late now to change the ballot. People would vote for the ticket printed on the ballot but both Political Parties have rules in place where if a nominee dies or steps down, the party name is a replacement within the partys choice to replace could be in the electoral september 14th when this all becomes formal so the party could coordinate that with the electors. There are some states like 1872 when Horace Greeley died when Congress Said you cant vote for somebody thats already dead so i was expecting in that instance that the states would vote for whoever one would go with who the party named as a replacement. This happened one time in 1912 the Vice President died a few days before the election. It didnt matter much because they had only 18 electoral votes that year, but the Republican Party coordinated for eight electors instead of james sherman. Gary out of newport, you are next. When taking a president , people dont take the time to consider. You have to look at the qualifications of the Vice President. That is true. It was an afterthought even after several instances very consciously not through the successor would be but then you have situations like when lincoln was shot in a member of the other party, Andrew Johnson becomes president facing two thirds majority of the opposition in the house and senate. More recently though i think weve done a good job of worrying less about balancing the ticket and more about qualifications and continuity. But ultimately its up to the voters. They need to take that seriously. I want to come back to section four that you wrote an entire book about. A majority of the principal officers in the executive department or other bodies of congress transmit to the speaker of the house the written is unable to discharge the duties of his office and shall assume the powers and duties of the office as acting president. Take us through who that constitutes. There is some confusion about this sometimes. What they mean is that 15 core members of the cabinets, people like the chief o chief of staffe trade representative, secretary of state and its used in article two of the constitution where we talk about the cabinet but its defined by statute so title five, section 101 defines what the executive departments 15 of them the most recent is homeland security. Another question is what if they are acting right now theres just one chad wolf and homeland security. The weight of the evidence suggests they would participate because the principal officers of the departments who is in charge of homeland security. Even if they dont participate you would just need the majority of who is left then theres the other Body Congress has never done that but that would have to be done through legislation. They couldnt just say forget the cabinet. They would have to pass a law but that is very unlikely at this point. From Michigan State university youre talking with the law professor taking your questions about the 25th amendment if you have questions on the eastern or central time zones good morning. Caller top of the morning to you guys. They need to get off of that we are running an election right now and still trying to throw stones at biden. The administration doesnt know whos going to be in charge if something does happen to trump because they jump into protocol. Where do you think that trump would let us know. Isnt it said if you take those you cannot be coherent and why we dont provoke the amendment. Professor. It is true. Normally we would say the bar is lower rather than to go over his head and do it. If there is a natural reluctance to do that. When reagan was shot he should have been voted for section number three. He was shot under general anesthesia for hours. But there is a need to politically project strength and control, so we dont tend to see president s admit they are not up to it so at what point does he step in . We would hope theres communication between the president , the president s staff and family and if at a certain point they may want to step in. The problem wasnt a medical question if the Vice President to steps in the president might not be real happy about that and the deck is stacked in his favor if he says its just fine and takes the question to congress and congress has to have a vote in the middle. It would be very difficult so they are going to be very reluctant to do that under any definition and they are sure if you contest, there wont be these politically disastrous fights but something relatively smooth. When you are better than we can say that you are able to come back. Its in formal panels but it isnt to set u set up to make te transfer of powerly done lightl. I should add the reason we have situations like president garfield incapacitated for a long time. No one was willing to step forward because they were not sure if the president would take hishi power back. The point was to clarify that and make it easier then its not going to happen. Following up on that and what if scenarios, this is michael in Portland Oregon what happens if the president becomes incommunicado and cannot be contacted and worse we cannot determine whether he or she will be contactable. I have a section on that in the book. You dont want to invoke lightly but the president is incommunicado and the only one who can use them then section four would be appropriate as a practical matter they would be reluctant to do that. So if there was a crisis then they would do it if theres nothing in particular thats critical happening then they would give time to find them in that situation but section four could work in that situation if they need to transfer power. The limits of section four of the 25th amendment this is bill out of maryland. I want to mention a Great Program when the 25th amendment was put into effect and Vice President cheney i think it was dan quayle am i correct about that . On two occasions for about two hours each. George w. Bush did have some Health Issues and a heart condition at one point but at no point did he transfer power. Saint augustine florida. This is a hypothetical but lets assume the Vice President has assumed the role as acting president due to the incapacitation of the existing president and this is kind of far out since theres no vacancy would we then say the speaker of the house would fill that role . Technically he would still be Vice President acting as president so he wouldnt be able to appoint a new president so next in line the problem is just as it was the case for all in the 25th amendment transferring power further down the line if theyey disagreed we had no way f knowing how that would be resolved. Then it would be a clear case but then we have a problem the linee had been contested and sy unconstitutional so depending on the context and the personalities, you might have someme problems with that and Congress Needs to fix those problems and provide some procedures and then also not having thee congressional Officials Team up in the problem. Would those be additional amendments to the constitution . A lot more influential people have been. Congress has studied the issue a lot. Not having any procedures or standards in place that would add to the line of the statute that says when the Vice President is incapacitated, defined that. The previous one before 1947 just had the cabinet, no speaker, no president it was just the cabinet and that worked okay. If they kept it this way we wouldnt have the problem and one of the reasons they did that was because of the constitutional issue. You are on with the professor. Caller good morning. I spoke to the person that asked me what i want to discuss. I want to discuss the constitution itself and impeachment of a president. What i want to do is discuss the constitution of the United States, congress and the senate in reference to impeachment of a president. The constitution of the United States, and im going to discuss that. What are your specific questions about it . I want to discuss when a president is impeached and what the senate does in reference. What i want to discuss is article one all powers granted shall be vested in the congress and the United States which shall consist of the senate and house of representatives. Now section two congress has given the power of impeachment. There is a Section Three to have the power to impeachment. Take us to your point real quick because we are running out of time. The only thing the senate has is to decide whether to remove the president of office. Mr. President is impeached. So therefore we cannot have an impeached president to say he is going to run for a second term. Host professor. Guest it makes clear the house in peaches and the senate decides whether to convict and it is an accusation the senate acquitted President Trump so none of the consequences apply. Yes he is impeached and nothing can take that away but since he wasnt convicted there are no legal consequences. Host loretta, youll are next. Caller thank you, professor. I have a question about the electoral college. Ive gone through the constitution and cannot find where it says how they are picked. I think that they are bought and paid for by the Republican Party or an outside entity. Guest what the constitution says is they are up to each state and almost every state does it the same way. Whoever gets the most popular gets all of the electoral votes. The states can change that although this late in the game they probably are not going to. So before popular voting was so widespread they chose who to vote for for president. I think it would be hard for any state to go back to that but theoretically it is possible and the Supreme Court seemed to suggest popular voting isnt necessary so weve seen the suggestion some states might award to whoever runs the National Popular vote and if enough states do that there would be a popular voting profession, but its up to each state. Host we mentioned one of the books unable, section four thats what we have been focusing on this morning. I should mention another book, the legal guide and their enemies. What are some examples of those cliffhangers we havent discussed so far this morning . Guest that came out in 2012 like can you prosecute a sitting president and what if they try to pardon themselves, some 25th amendment issues and line of succession problem about the constitutionality and what would happen if that was contested. There is a loophole and term limit and then theres a chapter on impeaching people after theyve left office. Host just on one of those issues what if a president tries to pardon himself . Guest thats been a when ate end of several administrations asked more loudly this time than previous. The answer is people are sure he can do it or he can. The answer is no one knows. There are reasonable arguments on both sides, so the answer is can a president pardon himself and the answer is he can try. I can imagine the court deciding i think what you are referring to is the house didnt vote on an investigation leading to impeachment. They did vote on the impeachment and there was a majority that impeached the president. Thats why we had the senate vote. Host did you want to follow up on that . Caller ok. Im not a constitutional scholar. Thing, the lady brought up that protesters were debate beating on neighbors doors, telling them what to do. Why arent we calling this political violence. There are no Trump Supporters out there burning down stores or buildings. Its been going on the whole year. We have shut down the government. I would ask host you made a couple of points there. We only have a couple of in its left for this discussion about the 25th amendment. We want to use his expertise while we have it. This question from our text service, a possible crisis if the president and Vice President become impaired. They travel and appear together more than previous president s. What could we expect. When does nancy pelosi ascend to the presidency . Can you walk through those issues. Guest as a practical matter with no standards or procedures a place, it would have to be very clearcut instance of the Vice President being completely incapacitated or if he handed power over to the speaker. Place, weandards in dont know. Nothing wouldhink happen, which is bad. Who would be in charge . Nothing would happen unless it was a very clear case of incapacity. In one ors try to get two more calls. Thanks for waiting. About i want to talk when the president was not able. Constitution,he the Senate President would be next. I think on the election and the debate thats going on, biden shouldnt be up there for all the things hes done. How come no one is questioning what he did . That wasnt fair at all. Host the first part of this question was about line of succession issues. Of succession is not spelled out in the constitution. Should bengress authorized. In 1947 passed the current law which says the speaker is next in line. The president pro tem is mentioned in the constitution as presiding over the senate. If the Vice President is acting as president , hes not casting the tiebreaking vote. The constitution says nothing about who is acting president at that point. Host this is carolyn in atlanta. Good morning. Is i reallyuestion biden may not be able to last his term. People say months or maybe a year. Harris would be the president. How likely is that if the voters put him in. The voters are voting for a ticket. They are voting for who would step in if something happened to joe biden. I cant speak to the likelihood of him serving out his term. It is happened many times before. In 19 34,oosevelt be people should have not was obvious he was not going to live through his term. They didnt think much about who the Vice President was. We do a better job of who the running mate is. Host brian kalt is a law professor at Michigan State and is the author of the book unable. Cspans q and a. Several pharmaceutical ceos testify on Prescription Drug pricing. Members question why the retail price of their drugs frequently increases and at a rate that far exceeds inflation among other issues. This is just under 4 hours