Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth Jill Lepore 20240712

So little perspective on this moment, its quite impossible to say. I think the perception that many people in the United States and of course also around the world have that this is an extraordinary unusual time something we are the time out of time, will be curiosity in the future people will look back and wonder about that very wonderment i think its an interesting phenomenon. When you think about today do you compare it to any period in history . Jill lepore as a historian im interested in analogies we have a cognitive tendency to enjoy analogies to find d one thing to be like another all the time. Just in the same way and the kind of person that sees likenesses and family members, and look at a new baby and say, that looks just like great grandma someone so. Have the same time, even as they say i recognize a lot of that is minded perception, my need for familiarity. I think there has been for most of my career as a historian the question to ask historians is what time is this like. Thats a journalistic check i understand where that comes from for journalists its an easy story to write. I think theres a whole crop of president ial biographers who go out on talk shows and offer those analogies. I generally find them to be not especially useful and i certainly think in this era its actually a way to contain the chaos that is coupled because its a way to avoid confronting whats truly strange about this moment in time. Two years ago on a talk he gave on this book these truths, you said what we mean when we talk about American History . How are we to reckon with the fact that our r present day is polarized that we believe past as two different past, we can be in a bit agree on sharing the same ancestry of two people. a jill lepore i still stand by that statement. We do have our account of the nations past is this polarized as our sense of whats going on in the present. If anything the pastor doesnt change but our destruction has become more and more divided and more affected by partisan passion. Real passion. Thats been obvious to me as a historian for a really long time. I think its maybe more obvious to the public than its ever been before. Maybe got to the forward by recent conversation about monuments which whether confederate monuments should stand. Those sources have been going on for a very long time but they havent occupied the attention of the media and of a auntil really just the last year. We can pick about other controversies in the past the history of wars of the 1990s. Similar in terms of a public fight over the history of a particular era. I think that we have a kind of sense now that remember the crazy goofy internet meme about the blue dress and people saw it as blue and some people saw and gold, i never looked at it but thats the world in which we live that every piece of information that is available can be seen either the blue dress or the gold dress. That same fractured lands is now the spectacle of the past as well, it becomes, i say history but not because im not deeply fascinated about things that happen, and really interested on how it got here and interested in how People Struggle with in the past and what we can learn from fortitude in the face of suffering which is most of the story of humanity. I think its really distressing that people look to the past simply as a file drawer you can open up to olfind physician papers to justify your own politics. I was going to close with this but i think its pertinent now, this is from these truths, in their you write that the american experiment has not ended. A nation born in revolution will forever struggle against chaos. I think in the course of this conversation youre likely to throw something at me have written or said that i will not stand by that ive changed my my don, i change my mind all the time. Its a human creation, nations dont exist in nature. Humans dont naturally live in nations, its a thing humans have invented as a category of Political Community that in our area has proven extremely important because the liberal nationstate is the only Human Institution that can guarantee rights to people its really important. The United States is a particular place in the history of the rise of the liberal nations state and organization of the government through the consent of the people that can actually deliver to the people goods and services and the guarantee of rights. Nations are really important but to say that there ab doesnt mean to do something trivial evanescent. Nation is a fundamentally unstable thing. In some way, especially the united eastates which is a nati based on the idea not the shared heritage and really not certainly on shared history and really not on shared language or shared religion, its based on an idea. The idea that the nation seized to exist i think that is some of the daily anguish of people wondering whats gonna happen in the United States people look up the country from afar people dont believe in the idea anymore. Thats the perilous state that gives it the constant edginess of that chaos. Professor jill lepore, at what point did you say to yourself, i think i want to write a history of the United States and 800 some pages . Jill lepore [laughter] bive been asked to write like u. S. History textbooks throughout my career. Viewers know that my most College High School and textbooks are written by a team of scholars, historians, specializing in a period often and coached history so they might be 20th century ab usually it takes a team of scholars to put together a textbook that covers the whole story of the United States. Ive never been attracted to that as a project. I like to work cooperatively but as a textbook as a genre as a particular tone that is extremely unappealing to me as a writer. I think of myself as a writer. A few years ago, and i was asked for the first time to write history of the United States and i said, as a College Textbook i said id be very interested in doing that but i think theres actually a need for the history of the United States not for students but for the public as a whole. There used to be these books, there used to be a certain point every american historians career, this was always men would write this as a public abnone of them are the last of their kind, they just offer up at this moment in time, heres how this historian sees the story. That tradition has fallen away and really quite violently repudiated but means that there hasnt been a book like my history of the United States a long time. It seemed to me like something of a dare. To resurrect this loss to tradition. I worked with an editor and publisher i usually admire and they let me write the book that i wanted to write that offered the account that i thought needed to be written. Like in my decades of teaching American History and writing essays about American History books about American History, i said, okay, i will do it. For me it was important i write it quickly, i get really bored with books really fast. I also had this i wrote the book pretty quickly but i also had this idea viewers have read the book can respond to this, i had this idea that a but if i wrote it fast it would read fast. It would have a page turn momentum. I took on the project but very much of the idea i would spend x number of months on the project and no more and then move on. If it had been while you write history of the United States a thousand patrons you could spend 10 years on it and never have done that. Taken aldve do you start chronologically when you start a project like that . The book is quite strictly chronological, its not a compendium, its not a chronicle, its a history, it makes arguments, each chapter makes an argument, it has themes its not an encyclopedia. It aims to be significant in its ability to comprehend large swaths of events. I had a very particular method, the book has four parts, each one has four chapters a lot of symmetry to the organization and i made my outline and then went to the library and picked would need to write the first chapter and put them in a stack in my office and the at yellow sticky note and then walked over and got the 50 books for chapter two, three, four and then every time i got to the bottom of a stack i would write that chapter, return those books and then go get the stack for the next pause so i would have them on hand. Day by day worked my way through it year by year, it was actually really fun, i teach out of harvard and my office is not too far from the Library Building so i could check all the books back and forth every time but you have to check out the books of the circulation desk, you go to the abi knew the security guards pretty well, they also all came to know what i was doing so everybody would be paying attention, you have the new deal i cant wait till you get to truman, i want to ask questions about truman. All the security guards were following my progress and also recommending books, people read a lot of history. It was a farmer, there was people i checked out most. What got left out . Times got left out. One of the reasons it became so difficult and untenable for an academic historian to write a history of the United States a aall the people stripped out of the story of the United States for a century and and a half and historical tradition of scholars were just really quite provincial. They all belong to a single Demographic Group and were interested in the history of that Demographic Group and no other. It meant that we had a very narrow understanding even what politics is. Beginning in the 1960s women and people of color entered the academy and found womens studies programs and black history programs what became lgbtq, sex and gender studies, historians of science, this incredible expansion of the scope of what people and groups and topics with the proper object of American History and subject of american Historical Books really changed all those people that exploded the profession they thought nobody could write it to given such a broad understanding of the diversity of the american experience. How could you cram that into a single volume . It would involve a rhetorical act of violence an act of exclusion in certain groups in any case youd be kind of beaten up for what you left out or emphasized or what you failed to emphasize. Its an academic scholarship in any field is pretty punishing. Theres a lot of disincentive to do this kind of work. There was also the idea that youd be promoting a kind of fiction that the country was just one thing that could be reduced to one story, these are the years of not only intellectual ferment and the growth of the academy and Inclusion Diversity within the academy but kind of a political sensibility about many stories and the american past. It just seemed like an untenable project and fall als a thankless lproject. It did not get done for a really long time. I found that difficult. There were many nights i lay awake in bed making lists of all the things that t belonged the chapter i was writing that i knew i would be able to attend to. I wasnt writing an encyclopedia. A reader needs to know why information in the chapter in there has to actually be in support of some theme or claims you come up with rules with what needs to be there and what doesnt need to be there. Thats not to say they cant all be secondguessed but the way i eventually got myself to sleep instead of making those lists was to remember this is s not the last account for the United States i was trying to rekindle the tradition of attempting to make sense of the nations past. My hope would be that other people would come along and write similar books and would challenge and subvert, challenge my account and thats the nature thats how historical scholarship works. Its not really meant to be the end, its meant to be the beginning. What motivated your followup book this america . Jill lepore both of the books that i was asked to write, i dont think on my own i wouldve actually pursued either project. I was asked to write an essay for foreign affairs, the history of american nationalism. There was a time in 2018 viewers might remember trump gave a speech. I think he was at a Campaign Rally and he said he was explaining he said im a nationalist and he said Something Like i guess im not supposed to use that word but im a nationalist. I might be misremembering the details. Subsequently an interview someone asked about nationalism and the history of the world and its meaning and implication. He said he didnt care, that the point was he considered himself to be a nationalist or to find the word the way he wanted to define it. So in 2018 there was a lot of discussion about a kind of american nationalism. I was asked to write some kind of account of the history of american nationalism either in the context of National Movements or the idea of america as a nation. So i wrote an essay that was about that but about what was a national his slurry does and the that i was asked to turn the essay into a short book. I think i say in the preface of the book, i wanted to explain what a nation is and why nationstates matter and what liberal nationalism is and why it matters and how it is in the absence of the defense of liberalism dealing with a kind of nationalism that comes to the liberal and that was the danger, the book is a defense of liberal nationalism. We will get into those definitions in just a minute but we happen to have that video of President Trump in october 2018 in houston. You know what a globalist is, right . A globalist is the one who wants to abthe globe to do well, frankly not caring about our country so much. We cannot have that. They have a word, sort of became oldfashioned. Its called a nationalist, i say really, were not supposed to use that word. You know what i am, im a nationalist. [cheering] nationalist. Use that word. [cheering] professor jill lepore, when you hear the president say im a nationalist what does that say to you . I think the context as a whole is so interesting to hear that. I dont have video in this exchange are not looking at what the viewers are looking at and i think the video is probably significantly richer in terms of the spirit of the occasion. Because there is something about calling out and celebrating nationalism before oan adoring crowd that i think for a lot of people who watched nationalists rise to power in order to secure the unclenching fidelity of the people for the purpose of acts of aggression, its a very unsettling if not terrifying thing to bear witness to. And really stricken, i had forgotten how he begins by defining a globalist which is really interesting because historically the rhetoric about globalism and globalists in particular is often fundamentally antisomatic. And history of the formation of nationstates jews were often people without a nation. Nationstate emergence in the 18th and 19th century and nationalism, the fidelity to a nation to a nationstate as a core commitment of many people around the world tend to release set to one side people who are stateless so that includes the basques or jews, and a lot of conspiracy theories for the 18th and 19th century are fundamentally antisomatic in the sense that they are based on the idea there is a secret cabal of jewish people who are bankers who control all the money. That these people have no National Attachment have global ties that are undermining national borders. When the rhetoric about globalists comes back in our day it really harkens back to the long tradition of the invocation of the International Conspiracy of jewish bankers. There is something really interesting about that. Not to say that, there are very strenuous and i think important retakes of globalization to be made, i think one of the chief criticisms of liberals or the ed progressives 1990s bill clinton arrow forward, even into the late 1980s but through obama is the kind of embrace of globalism and a sense that certain people will be left behind by globalization but thats okay. Its for the best. There is a real critique of globalization that i think people watching trump and who admire trump and feel recognized and seen by him when he says that our thinking about all the ways in which globalization has really been responsible for a great deal of the widening income of the quality around the world. Its an interesting mix of there are people really angry about whats going on, what went on in the beginning of the 90s. The fantasy of globalization. For trump to invoke nationalism very much to applaud what he is absolutely presenting as a no liberal nationalism is kind of a classic work of liberal nationalist. Where the important things that people who do make that move do, to kind of define globalists and it has this whole antisomatic history of demotic bad people, people who love the nation this nation best are the good people and their love is simply another form of patriotism. The consortium of nationalism and patriotism is like a central move its an essential step in urging people to be willing to make sacrifices for the nation that can only be asked in the interest of an authoritarian. There is a messy history behind that. One of the things i tried to do by writing this short book was to kind of pause and look at, whats the difference between patriotism and offer something up, when people say nationalism now they generally only ever been ill liberal nationalism, not the liberal kind ntbecause liberals wont defend nationalist. I will, i think its important to love your country. I think its important to be willing into to be willing to think about your obligations to your country. And the civic duty that we owe to one another. Thats the thing that i believe i think is central to the project of any liberal nationstate. I think its a vanishingly small space to occupy when everybody is talking about nationalism is talking about hating other people rather than loving the people of your own country. Whats the difference between a nationalist and a populist . Im not sure its really that interesting, people use these terms in all different kinds of ways. In its most simple definition a populist is a politician who makes appeals directly to the people. Rather than to policies or to follow elected officials. A populist isnt going to appeal to congress for support before appealing first to the people and suggesting that everything that he or she is doing is in the peoples interest. Which seems fine, we live in a democracy we have a majority that governs elected officials be appealing to the people but it is a way, it has a whole negative connotation around abi think the way many scholars study the history of populism use the term is to think about sorting institutions and enlisting the emotional support of the people for the sake of a political agenda that generally doesnt represent in a meaningful way the peoples interest. Congress enlisting the support of the people who are actually not delivering real things to the people. Which may or may not be a fair abprogressive did a lot of things that were in the interest of the people but then they never delivered those things. They were not populist because there appeals were not genuinely of a populist nature. In terms of the tenure and particular pitch the pitching role. That afternoon, thanks for spending a little time with us on booktv, this is our indepth program, this month we are pleased to have joined us from Cambridge Harvard professor jill lepore. She is the author of many books, she received her phd in american studies at yale in 1995 and her first book came out in 1998 it was the name of war, king philips war in the origins of american identity. Her second book 2002 is areas for american letters and other characters in the newly united state. New york bernie 2005 revolution in American History in 2010 happiness history of life and death in 2012, the story of america essays on origins also came out in 2012. The book of ages, the life and opinions of jane nfranklin, sister of Benjamin Franklin, came out in 2013. I believe it won the National Book award. The secret history of wonder woman, 2014, auntran12as teeth, which we will talk about later. Her most recent book is if then how the symbol maddox corporation invented the future, thats a brandnew book and we will talk about that in just a minute. Want to involve you in this conversation as well. If you have a question or comment you would like to make you can dial in or contact us via social media here are the numbers, the Eastern Central time zones 2027488200 is the number to dial. In the mountain and pacific time zones 202 748 august 2,auab we are also going to scroll through our social media accounts facebook you can make a comment, you can send an email we will scroll through those, remember booktv. Jill lepore, if then, what was the symbol maddox corporation, i hope im saying that correctly . Jill lepore you are. Great importance, you know what david called the best and the brightest in an altogether ironic way here could they had the idea that they could conduct with the early Mainframe Computers available in the 50s and then some ibm made using a new computer language that they could program a computer to conduct a simulation of a us president ial election and use the simulation to provide Campaign Advice to whoever the democratic nominee would be. This was 1959 and they expected the nominee to be stephenson and most of the guys who worked for him had in fact worked in 1956 against a dry diet and 10 white eyes and. In 1960 everyone expected nixon to run as the eisenhowers Vice President to run as a republican nominee. And he did it ever be thought hed be a formidable opponent. Nixon, was an extremely formidable candidate but also a vulnerable one. Theab democrats are really vulnerable because of their position on civil rights. And greenfield and his colleagues, built this machine which they call the people machine with computer simulation of the election in order to improve the democrats the importance of engaging black leaders in the north and take a stronger position on civil rights. That is how the company was founded. They work for the dnc and then as you arty know, with john f. Kennedy. They went on to do pioneering work the cold war and is important in a lott of ways so you significantly served because, back story to facebook or social media today that data mining the company did. Very much kind of the great grandfather, great granddaddy of social mining today. Host where did you find the story . Guest i found the story in 2015 with the magazine for a long time forie us often to pieces with thell institution people think they know all about. But in fact, just dont. The historians know about for it as asked to write a history and the 2015 which was very much in the news for all kinds of reasons, we could go into but thats a long story came clear to me the Polling Industry is in climate in crisis and an largely being dealt with by data science but why would you call 3000ne people on the phone asked a bunch of questions in higher do that if y you could just follow them online and extract their data in figure with their political preferences are without ever having to do that. That data sites are replacing a making obsolete the calling industry. That was clear to me and then i got really interested in figuring out when that happened and how that happens. And i came across in a journal article a story about the corporation providing allies during election simulation to the Kennedy Campaign during 1960s there is an answer this is where it came. And so i read the article. Meanwhile i got really interested in this company. How did i never know about this or how come nobody heard about this company what happened to this company . I went to the archives to try to find corporate record. The corporate records dont exist. The companies records are nonexistent. But i did find a large swath of material related to the company was at mit in the papers of the chairman of the research was a political scientist at mit. And so i live infar cambridge. I went over to the library and started going through which was most on catalog papers its incredibly rich story about a whole lot of a Different Things that this company had done. They handed it a hand in all types of different books thats done now. And i never thought of his having origins in the cold war. It explained a lot to me. And i did not buy any steps set out to write history and scienc science. Its a really compelling story in the can contract characters are fantastic. Expect corporate records dont exist the company went bankrupt it was headquartered in new york in the new york office was run by greenfield, the admin that was president of the company. He had fallen into considerable dissolution after 1968 when his estranged wife died in terribly tragic circumstances. The company unraveled over the work at it done in vietnam. Took to drinking very heavily. Basically sleeping on peoples couches. Like lost track of shortages could not pay the rent for to got shredded. Maybe in the white house for a while. Greenfield wouldve failed to pay the bill. Companies lose their records all the time. But people were still interested what the company had done. Even in 1970, 71 people would write to the g mit guy is a quite brilliant political scientists whod say im looking for the following materials related to the corporation could you tell more the archives i hed say they are the warehouse in new york. He straight to the following address. But then people started asking him and he was like i dont kno know. They just got trashed right. In fact the novel was written f about the corporation, the 480. There are actually two different models in the company. First came out in 19641 was a near times bestseller for a long time everyone expected it would be made into a film. And that are complicated reasons the other was a Science Fiction novel, called three. It kind of disappeared inches obscure to produce made into a film a german filmmaker in the 1970s. And then basically remade into the i matrix. The matrix is a world in which we are all living in a simulation other than an actual world from s this 1964 novel. It was about the corporation. So in a way, like we all know the story. Some ways is a more sophisticated story that is written in 64 is called the 480. The title 480 possible voter types. And very admirable president ial candidate he is a young guy, the best of intentions is recruited to run for president. And expected to lose in a way that will help the party prevail and 68. And his campaign is conducted by a computer simulation of the election for it every thing youre supposed to do is being told to do by a computer. It is written by this guy eugene who i just love. He was like a california surfer, beach boy, went to the navy, served in the navy was a Navy War Hero went off on a road scholar to come a writer. He was written fiction, was that new yorker got a phd meet top political the university of california, berkeley. And wrote novels. There pieces as well. We go with the ugly american, astonishing publishing success. But he wrote a bunch of other books some got made into their space which was made into a fil film, came out and 62 during the cuban missile crisis during henry fondas the president of the United States people may have seen is a great, great movie. It was a greenfield and 1956 on at least evensons campaign. Helping stevensons with the category primate attention against his democratic competitors and then when greenfield formed in 1959 he asked burdick to join he said no, it was an incredibly world famous celebrity and its not something he was going to take on but he was fascinated by and it was indefensible. God is colleagues to send all these topsecret documents he used all that stuff to write a really distressing novel about the i company much the companys dismay. And the dies tragically the next year will paying he had a terrible heart condition. So people dont know anymore, he was kind of a public intellectual that does not existed and more. And probably shouldnt and he is a celebrity spokesman for a beer. He was on all of booktv ads in the magazine ads. The first model was for a manlier brew he was most manly of american political scientis scientist, literary figures. Welcome a party may lead to a larder you are on. Caller hello im a big spent a fan of cspan book tv. Doctor thank you we heard you mmlk about nationalism and i think of our country is a country of benefits we accepted to such liberty. We have it in your city and we love it. We talk about the american id and a hold on the u. S. History. So im asking, how do you think, in view of a country of all things, how is religious belief or practice kind of is this is about the same as it slanted up or down . My a only example is thanksgiving in 1789es president washington was a day of thanksgiving to god and then president lincoln in 1863 also made a proclamation of saying so thank you basement thank you eduardo. Guest thanks eduardo. I get your question about religious in American History, just to think a little bit about the way you describe the country as a nation of immigrants and the importance of the melting pot. Each of those expressions was by john f. Kennedy announcing his plate written in the 19 teens, each of those expressions of the United States as aat people in the nation state has history. They emerged from political battles of their own day. We carried them forward and use the mineral political battles they have no history they were not used before 1916 when it was used to defend kind of a political version of the interpretation and the then explanation wes Founding Fathers all the time is people of all was said that. It is a political invention. So is the idea of a multiple nation of immigrants. Its not traditional in terms of we all need to know kind of the caboose that follows in their wake of where these things come from. But american self perception around in particular what americans would see with neck at Ethnic Diversity is really interesting and long history. And each term in American History when there is a crisis over immigration in the constitution of the people, it tends to emergence odor new practices. So, the thing that is really interesting to me about american religious pluralism and religious tolerance is we are thinking about in a deep historical way, in order to gain a better perspective on our current battles over freedom of religion, and even battles overse secularism. Would be to recall, and i spend time with this argument in these cues. Ive also written about elsewhere. Our commitment to political toleration, that is our commitment to living in a quality where we have more than one Political Party. Or people can speak against the government freely. But where political dissent is accepted and effects called for. Comes from the establishment of religious toleration. To say what comes first as tolerant people different religious views. That makes possible, historically tolerating people of different political views. That is a dissent from the 17th century so, the idea tia on toleration that the political philosophy emerges and people to see its actually okay for people to have different ideals about religion. For someone like john milton, that is okay. Its because the truth will out is always the idea. If you believe there is a truth in a divine sense, then it will prevail paired what is the worry . Why tell people what to believe. Its no way for them, they want to belabor you cannot tell people what to believe and expect them to believe. People will find if it is true. Snack it isif really, in some ways a beautiful idea, right . Makes it possible you know, and what are the english colonies, a tremendous growth which many of theol parties were found in the first place. All the new england colonies, marilyn is a catholic colony, many of these parties were founded because they fail people they could not practice their religion in england. This was before 1641. And they come to practice their religious and worship the wayrs they please in these colonies where they are distant from the enforcement of the church of england. And in many cases then also suppress other peoples religious experience. But that eases up overs the course of the 17th century. By the 1730s of the great awakening, there is a proliferation of religious sect sects. And there is also an emergence of enlightenment era on skepticism. See have a thomas paine by 1776 and into the 1770s and 1780s with the age of reason preaching that he has no church. That acceptance that people can believe, they can worship their god they want is fundamental to what emerges in the colonies which is a commitment to political toleration. Its on the same path people can believe whatever they want to believe. They can vote for who they are going to vote for prethey can even organize as a Political Party and disagree with the people who are in power. So long as this is what the is for, the same basic idea is the freedom of religion. Benjamin franklin writes in his apologies in 1731, heres my job as a printers to print everybodys view. Because in the end truth will win. When truth and error have a fight, truth always winds at the fundamental idea behind a jury trial right . Under fairfield people have this argument and 12 reasonable people will decide which one is right. So the printer franklin says i will print a diversity of views and my readers will be able to chill just like a juror in a trial. Hes right. That is how our whole side of ideas about expression and an eight religious sense and political expression emerges. We see it down to the bills of rights of the states. And finally the bill of rights that cemented to the constitution in 1791. So those are the long two centuries long tradition on which our requirement that there be no religious test for officeholders in our First Amendment protection of institutions come. Its t the case that there was beginning in 1979 with the moralaj majority, very particular evangelical christian position the nation had always been a christian nation and there can be evidence found for this all along. The path in American History and people would point to what washington said it thanksgiving or lincolns tradition. And those are practices, those are important part of American History. Butan the deeper foundational commitment to freedom of religious expression is what makes possible or freedom of political equation. That all of these things seem now completely fragile in the face of social media is it among the tragedies of the 21st century. Stomach lets hear from ken and atlanta georgia, i can presume okay there. Please go ahead. Stomach how are you joe, i appreciate it very much. I work with the state legislature of georgia. And we have just finished 850, 60 year projects in civics. And its going to be rolled out beginning this year. They arere going to do it with recreational vehicles traveling to everyve state capital and it has to do with i heard you say when you first started talking today about it would be good if the americans knew more and got more involved and so forth. Ohile this is designed to get one 100 of the people to address the numberone problem which is civic illiteracy of all of us. We are practicing democracy when we do the pledge of allegiance and we are supposed to be using a republic or the republican form. And this is such a serious matter that many years ago a guy named Thurgood Marshall was on the supreme court. And i cant think of his name right now, he was chief justice award burger. And he told us, he said civic illiteracy is so encased or pronounced the problem isnt that we dont know, the problem is we dont know that we dont know. Sue and he can bring to leave it there and have the professor respond to the idea of civic illiteracy. Yes, thanks ken. Is going to ask ken but is on the line any longer, what he thanks the forces responsible for this, right . I agree there is a huge problem with the lack of Civics Education. I concur. I dont know anything about the program that can has been involved in atlanta georgia, there are a number of problems going on all over the country. Some are incredibly exciting. I civics has a national project. My colleague at harvardmy runs a project. Theres people doing Civics Education all the time. T i write in these books, as much about American History is an old civics textbook. Like i wholly support the idea that we need more and better Civics Education. Im always curious to think people think is the reason we dont have it. I would have been curious to ask ken. Theres also oftenal a narrative as we used to have it used to be so great. People always think it didnt used to be so great. So we urgently need it. But what it is, in our current political environment satellite source of contestation. What we mean mean what we need Civic Education . Who is in a speech earlier this year that was designed for capturing media cycle for patriotic education. Thered many such suggestions over time. They are associate the single Political Party. And Civics Education is not partisan, cant be partisan but americans dont really know the meaning of the word nonpartisankn anymore. So what is that mean today . I would say, i see a lot of evidence of the long tail of the consequences with the emphasis on Stem Education in k12, which is to follow on to the inevitable consequence, back to the cold war and the federal government funding a very particular and narrow set of research at universities to advance the National Security interest of the cold war that really had the effect of impoverishing every other field, arts and the humanities and the languages in i particular that trickle down to k12. Withte Stem Education and now is to the consequences are, honestly. Of political culture in complete disarray. Where it is not the fault of teachers, Public School teacher teachers, theyre not getting resources to teach the subjects or schools dont make authority of these. And its not the fault of kids. The reason for this change is very different peers well, a related question. This is a text. And a reminder if you do send a text please include a first name and your city paired this is ana question, what does she think about the recent whitete house sponsored conference on examining liberal bias in teaching American History . Spit it was her actual conference customer got but it is just a speech to know peter . Civic you know i think there was a meeting. Met but there was, or what i heard about emily to not have a collar on the line to query, that there was a call for eight National Commission be called the 1776 project. That was meant as a riposte to the New York Times 1619 project. I dont think the Commission High could be wrong, its too exhausting to follow all of the media stunts. Of people taking positions so they can get cameras on them. So i dont know. What i think of it . F reminds me a lot of, i know my answers are very long. But i am a storyteller so i will tell his story. In 1965 i believe, the Lyndon Johnson administration set up a bicentennial. It was the 200th anniversary of the stamp act which was set off the resistance of american independence of the declaration of independence in 1776. So, johnson wanted to do some work to perk pair for would be that nations hundredth anniversary in 1776. And there would be a buildup of events between 65 and 76 because theres a lot along the way. What we do a 1970 the anniversary the boston massacre what would do 1973 that averse to the Boston Tea Party but would be due in 1775 the anniversary of the battle of lexington and congress. So, the commission in 1965 with the Voting Rights act but it is a heyday with the civil rights movement. With the Johnson Administration determines is telling the nation story is new in the 1960s 1970s should take stock of struggle for civil rights. And it should do the kind of things that james bolden was asking the American People to do was to was to look squarely at the nations history of slavery, the atrocity of jim crow, the ongoing inequality. And Racial Injustices and facts brutality based on race. Indigenous to the Peoples Movement or will become the American Indian movement was very much reached the main street press and not too far from you know, the alcatraz action, custard died for your sins are very much at the height of the early years of the movement where the gayrightsht movement, so johnsons bicentennial commission was interested in telling this big story. This kind of new big story. Johnson decides and 68 not to run. And then loses to nixon. Nixon inaugurated looks at the commission it says basically, whatwh trump said what he thanks of those who indoctrinate americanan schoolchildren and College Students to hate america or whatever he said. That is what Lyndon Johnsons commission was. This is all from memory. He was a can say thats not exactly right. Nixon basically kicks a lot of johnsons appointees often establishes his own commission. Theyreve going to tell version of American History that is not unlike i would imagine one trump is calling forth his 1776 project right, kind of a nice analog to the 17ec project during the 1770s project prints out nixon puts all these people on. In actual historians who are scholars, thats aia joke. This is not actually how to happen. You can do that, which are not going to serious scholars to be a part of that. Its your history of fiction. Johnsons history mightve been partisan incompetent for other reasons, shores is like a comic book. So, this leads to a series of incredibly intense protests at the commemoration of the bicentennial. Ill leave it march 5, 1970, its with the boston massacre but theres a shooting at ken state which there is a whole generation of College Students who have on the wall of their storm roomve a poster that is degrading of the boston massacre was the motto about kent state. Thats the revolution. Revolution is students protesting vietnam. Inheritors of the American Revolution. And not nixon or nixons department of defense. For civil rights activist antiwar activists. So there is a huge battle in the 70s about which version, we began this conversation about two versions of the nation. So that divide really has its origins at that moment. And in 1973 in boston, there is a big celebration in boston for december 16, 1973 is a 200th anniversary dumping of the t. These businessmensm get this old photo and rig it up to look like that 18th century votes. They sail it over his immediate sermons of dumping of the t. This truly thousands of people there. But the whole thing is protested. Theres a bunch of people in a raft, a bunch of Indigenous People from new england who show up to protest then actors who dressed up the sons of libertys does dress up as about hocks to dump the tea. Then there is a flotilla of yea pride. Then there is a very big march of Vietnam Veterans against the war who are protesting the militarization of the protest. So, if you want to wonder when did some kind of unitary notion of the american past shatter, it did not happen two weeks ago and trump said there is aal liberal conspiracy didnt cthappen exceeding 19. Its been going on for a very, very, very long time. In fact our lack of knowledge and history we dont even have a history of the history problem. Sue and jill, when do you find time to synthesize all this information the . Civic you know, i teach every day. So w youre asked to do and you teachers come up with and explanations and answers in ways to help people think about problems and to help students figure out how to investigate something that interests them. So mainly, its the gift of being able to be in the company of young people who have questions and they think about things for its medical susie text in a question well a little off topic perhaps but was privileged to hear david blight discovered the trend discussed Frederick Douglass and noting his omissions of his wife anna in his autobiographies reminded me of Ben Franklins omission of jane in any of his public writings. So wondered if this was perhaps typical of the times . And not as much of a slight as it seems . Thats an interesting question. For those who have not met his wonderful biography you absently should. David and i have for a long tim time. This is actually an opportunity for me to it correct it a fact said my book about James Franklin won the National Award it did not was a finalist for the National Book award part i will correct that here. Yeah, so here, it is worthwhile remembering that Frederick Douglass who wrote three biographies of first was published in 1845 the life of Frederick Douglass, was very much influenced by Benjamin Franklins autobiography which is public in 1790 right after franklin died and in english shortly thereafter. Not in franklins lifetime. And, so reallyea is every influencedography by his autobiography. Which is to say franklin established the idea that the story of the auto biographer will serve as a story of a much bigger struggle. Franklins case the story of the whole country. So franklin told the story of his bride which was a new thing to do. There were biographies of things, you werent supposed to write the story off your life. He told the story as if he was a self made man. The expression was not quite current them. But franklin said i was born into poverty, having been born into poverty, this is a rough paraphrase. I write this book in order people who are interested can know how to emulate me, how to go for mixed security to reputation. How to go from income ignorance too knowledge. How to go from rags to riches, from poverty to prosperity. So franklin had also on the way to wealth silver franklin story is about you do it all on your own. That is crucial to franklins tale. Right . You should not have to need peoples help in franklin store because he is to people who probably dont p have any help. It may not be able to get any. So his advice is, heres how you can do this yourself. We can think about that historically and realize this is a lot of drunkenness, like franklin saint just pick yourself up actually work harder and things work out. Which is not to economic mobility in his day, is almost unheard of. Franklin was an unusual, extremely unusual exception. But for the way for that story to work, for him to give the advice you can o lift yourself up by your own bootstraps is the expression that comes, you cant eat anybodys helper to the fact that there is an extraordinary amount of help in that journey and that rise, he deliberatelyra leaves out of the story and includes his sister. Also theres a thousand other reasons his closest course but in many ways closest friend. I dont think its neare convention. It is a plot device its necessary for the plot of the story. So douglass who stories about the journey to freedom, franklin was born from poverty to wealth. Douglas is from to freedom. It has not that same structure. Douglas did in fact need a lot of help. But he cant, for very different reasons, douglass cannot say who helped him. In 1845 when Frederick Douglass comes out, he is a fugitive. If he gets caught or anybody that helps them get scott, he would be returned to slavery. And they would face charge especially after 1850. He cant say what help he got pretty can intimates that he was say he would help. Is like a legal reason he cant talk about all the help that he a got. He does talk about the white woman who taught him to read. He also then teaches himself to read. Because a lot of us have gone from literacy to knowledge. So, i cannot now recall what was the explanation for white douglas his wife is part of the story as he tells it. Some of it is, a 19th century convention. But this not absolutely out off it. Yeah, that is quite a long answer to think about the invisibility about women and men success. I would not say to the degree it was convention at the time that it somehow ends. You see that all the. Time. The resource of every Silicon Valley entrepreneur is about inventing himself. Its a big peace of i was watching boys state, have you seen the movie boy state . Know it is on my list. Switch it was a documentary grand jury prize its about every state has a summer camp for political geek kids, the girls one and the boys went in the boys stayed in texas is a documentary film. One of the characters in it was an appealing character, Texas High School boys who want to go into politics. He keeps talking in his Campaign Speech where theyre running for office about how is a selfmade man, how he came from nothing and got to this. And the between shots is always on his cell phone talking to hisis mother. [laughter] its like okay, youre an incredibly appealing young man. And you succeed in every way. Your mother really helped to make you. At some point he does say that. But its so much a part of american individualism we do not acknowledge people who help us out. In particular we do not acknowledge women. Its unbelievably maddening. Just to say, is not a 19th century is not 18th century, it is something person American Task to that happens over time. But is very much still with the spirits effect that gave us a chance though to talk about the National Book award finalist, book of ages, the life and opinions of Jane Franklin that was published in 2013. Leonard from california, please go ahead with your question. Caller yes. Thank you professor. Im a a little bit nervous as the first time ive ever called into a television show. I really want to thank you. I noticed on apple books at all of your books are on audio. And for persons like myself with pretty severe dyslexia, it makes it more accessible. I even for my friends who are blind. When you go back to harvard, could you ask the other professors to put most of their books on audiobooks so its more accessible for people like myself . Cement hopes im sorry i thought you were finished, professor. Yes, thanks for that. As a person who i guess listens to a lot of book, i listen to audiobooks all the time. I love audiobooks a live audio storytelling. Most of my books i think since i booked was he secret history of wonder woman i have been the narrator of all the audiobooks. I love reading them. And i would say, not all writers should be doing their audio. There are some people who are not good at it. But i really like doing it. I love hearing from listeners who listen to the book and you only listen to books that are read by the writer because its more intimate. I think its a cruel thing pretty also, it might be interested to listen to a podcast called the last archive that you can listen to for free anywhere they listen to podcasts. That is myy exploration of the nature of truth in the history of truth the 20th century tends to solve the mystery of radio drama to answer the question. I wish i could tell you that my colleagues at harvard would do something, but i dont have that kind of influence perspective we have a followup text hear from somebody, what is her typical work schedule for writing books . . Most of my work habits go back to when i was a kid, we, and myy family will had to work a lot of jobs. It was understood that you would work a lot. So, this may seem very ben franklin ask for those who have read Benjamin Franklins autobiography. I always had a lot of things or i can get the work done to get some reading was supposedly working. Psych do a lot of things that are frantic pace in order to earn back the time to do the reading that i want to do. So its really nice from you end up having a job thats basically reading. But forr me, how i handle, i have a lot of different demands on my time because again i mainly a teacher rest most professors are. Its not a was clear thats the case for thats the most important thing we do. I generally come at the beginning of the month theyon get out a calendar with its the olden days it was a peace of paper. And i just mark up everything i have to do that semester, all the committee means i have to go to, lectures i have to give, the Schedule Department meetings, times i am teaching, and i tried to move stuff into particular days. And then every day that i am not teaching or animating, i put a big w over the day and thats a writing day. And then those are sacrificing spirits of someone says id relate to me the on tuesday whats go for lunch or what to go for run can you run . On wednesday morning . Ii can say im sorry i am completely tied up. Think the problem for a lot of academics who dont have control over their own time is if you dont schedule writing time, and all the other things you have to do will inevitably take up. There are a total things. My big priority is being available to meet withh students. When i was on campus, im on campus you can meet with mr. Preserving my time. Main thing i do is protect my writing times from other kinds of things. And a lot of people say yes to a lot of things like this. Spending two hours during this is not summing i would ordinarily do. Because i could spend my time with my family if im not writing or teaching. Check yes weve been trying to get you on as you well know on in depth for quite a while. So we do appreciate your time today. [laughter] there is a publication, how to this classer for that the professor putut out. One of the opening sentences is, quote, to write histories to make it or give it by telling a story about dead people. You will be dead where they too, so please play fair. And remember, never condescend , is probably bad enough being dead without some smart alec using your life and times to make a claim. I stand by it, i stand by perspective we still it up to students . I have it on my webpage because teachers ask for all the time. People write and say how you teach people about writing . He read back and it seems angry but its not angry. But i have found, this is in her teaching course in the American Revolution is when i wrote this document. The assignment was to find an actual person who had left series of letters or diary some body of work that could be investigated to tell the story of their life and make an argument about the American Revolutionon and answer what for a long time the big question about the American Revolution which wast whether or not it was truly radical or fundamentally conservative. Really upended the political order by restating this. And so to do this for work and get a draft of their papers and you know and be writing but some like Jane Franklin or Benjamin Franklin or Benjamin Becker Thomas Jefferson or joseph brant or whoever. The assets would treat these peoples if they were human beings. They are like puppets on a stage to be brought onto say their lines and then go behind the curtain and then the student would say whatever. They would quote them and then kind of beat them up about what they just had them say. Like theyd have some things to put then pension. [inaudible] i was like people these they were real people. Theyre not just a subject of yourur paper. Its not like math redoing a proof and need variables and intruders. These were people. They had children and they had child birth pains, they knew how to use a gun, like get whatever, they were human beings. So thats without wind comes from. Because it seems so brilliant and determined and hardworking and creative yeah. Resting to see how people cant we do this to one another in the world all the time, make use of other people im not on social media but my senses a great deal of what social media did is making fun of something people say and thats unfair tos them. That is my long winded explanation of the sentence the passage that you quoted that respect whats hear from martha in charleston south carolina, thanks for holding martha. You areng on. Caller high peter, i think this the longest hold ive ever had at cspan. [laughter] because jill really does answer thoroughly, thank you jill. [laughter] i am sorry martha, thanks for your time. I am an active teacher in thank goodness students have you as a teacher in your writing has been a wonderful part i have to tell you, these truths was recommended to me by one of my second grade students from 30 years ago who writes me about his reading all the time. He was in new zealand doing graduate work. And he wrote me, have you read these truths . Intercourse i could write back directly to him that i had read book of ages, and i had read wonder woman. But i had not gotten to these truths yet. So talk about writing, letter writing and with your old students from 30 years ago it is a real f gift, joe, to know that my student found you before i even told him about you. That is so cute thats nice you guys are in touch like that how wonderful. Speak to the book ages i think is the reason why i went on to wonder woman. Because the subject of the book of ages of course fascinated was franklin sister and the bifocals and the alglasses and all of that. Im still adjusting to my bifocals. Wonder woman i never would have picked up unless you had been the author. Tell me why you wrote about wonder woman . Sue and thank you martha. Yes thanks so much martha and hello to steven out there. Yeah, wonder woman select the tale i told i came on the story of the court maddox corporation which something i stumbled across an archive and felt compelled to write about. Im starting with martha that i would not of thought of writing out a book about wonder woman. I was not a wonder woman fan as a kid or as an adult. I had watched like all of the lousy, typical movies. Kids. E of my so thats been my framing of the superhero. But sometime back, when with this have been, 2011. Take your mind back to 2011 in the republican primary season where large number of republicans romney, gingrich, michele bachmann, ron paul, big field, a run for the nomination to compete for election. In planned o parenthood, had been in the news a lot and had become a conservative of the Republican Party each of these candidates who i have forgotten had pledged had signed a pledge if i was elected president i would have planned parenthood went went to write the history of planned parenthood. Why is planned parenthood sudley in issue in the republican contest . So i started researching that story. In the papers of planned parenthood, the organizations smith a Wonderful Library there. And so wrote the part papers of margaret who is the founder and founded in 1916. Meanwhile i was writing an acacia, i agreed to give a third thirdyear law school workshop. Evidence so i decided that i wanted to write an acacia about the issue of the lie detector which was invented by at harvard bite undergraduate right around the time planned parenthood washt founded. Theres this guy name william larson. I was really excited to write an acacia about him i went into wikipedia to begin to find out about him. There like two sentences. Invented theet light detector tested 1915 as an undergraduate at harvard. 1941 he created the comic book superhero wonder woman. That is the quickest wikipedia entry ever prayed theres nothing else. And no explanation of how these two things connected to one another. So, i set about doing the research and during the lie detector, and then when i went to the planned parenthood papers i kept coming across letters to this guy from margaret or two sang as it turned out fingers sister ethel byrne had founded planned parenthood with her in the been kicked out of the organization for really complicated reasons. But that ethel byrnes daughter olive was the mother of two of larsons children lived with him and his wife in a threeway marriage. So, that is like two interesting i kept researching researching researching, until i came to a conclusion is too important to not write a book about based on also pretty on route to it was a wonderful wonderful generous brilliant man and obstetrician and asked him about where the families papers were that he would speak ton me. The family had not shared its incredible trove of letters and especially photographs and diaries with anybody. Because of very, very unconventional family story which was a scandal in their lifetime and very well hidden secret. As a powerful moment when i was at smith. Id done all this research had written this article for the new yorker about planned parenthood called birthright. And then i went back to do some more looking once i decided i wanted to do this thing about wonder woman. As in the office of one of the curators in the library to ask some questions about looking through think it was a Magazine Collection and i said, cant figure what box stuff is in. Usually the curators know so i set out this wonderful woman just here working on plan person yeah gabbana work on something else. Just have some questions for it and look in this collection work youon can tell me what box i could find at this long list of things. She is that there not be any papers in this box about williamsons yeahon box 257. How about is there a file docs about the stuff about wonder woman . I move through the stuff shes scribbling anything down. Then she looks at me and pauses. Like her jaw that literal thing when there jaw, she nearly jumped out of her chair. She said oh my god, my god. Wonder woman is not a thing. [laughter] i looked at her and said this was a big insight of all this archival research. This is the thing that was hidden about the complicated Family History between plan. And the emergence of wonder woman. It was just an exciting thing finding in the, archives. Thats the book im sorry martha you said agape long answers and now given the longest one gets respect isnt margaret being exercised from planned parenthood at this point . Yes. That was a short answer. Are right, subject that was a short answer were moving on. I know that is true. Alright lets hear from bill in kansas city, missouri, high buildings rolling. Peter this is great, thank you so much. You look like you are enjoying it as much as the viewers are. Jill, i was a champion of your work and going all way back to the name of war at a little bookstore in vermont. And im still a champion of your work in my capacity as an elderly librarian here in kansas city. I have always wanted to ask either you or some other academic historian, the extent to which you rely on the talents, the curiosity, of your students to assist you in the mechanics of fact checking, finding documents et cetera, et cetera. You have talked several times this morning. I think you even use the thphrase the gift of connecting with curious interesting young folk. And as a geezer, i am so excited when i see a sparkle in some Young Persons went to hand them book of ages or a tell them about name ofbo war. Or lets read about new york city in 1741. So, a long winded question but long winded seems to be the calling card today. [laughter] smacked bill, how long have you been a librarian . Ive only been a librarian for about three years. I was a bookseller for 28. And i used to joke to anyone who would listen that the three women i wanted to date before death were bonnie rate meryl streep and jill. Whatever that is worth, peter perspective we will leave that they are. Jill, what is your answer regarding students question expect yes. I work with them in a thousand different ways. And i know that there plenty of historians who have large teams of students doing Research Work foror them. I generally dont. There are some really notable exceptions. Where i just cant do the thing that needs to be done. I would say i actually relied to a huge degree on librarians so, the time of digitizing collections, and collections that are digitizer book,k, i often have thete experience of really want to look at the stevenson papers that are printed in and i did not have time given my teaching schedule and my parenting obligation to take a trip to princeton. Especially because i thought stencil but there carefully categorize. I could see there is a folder was the founder of systematics. Thats the case was a big folder think it was pages where libra said have resources not you can write and say i would like to see that folder. And they will scan every item in it for you. It actually works out well for labors because you pay for the scanning and now they have it scanned for anyone who ever once it so its now available to the library its a way that led raising get resources in other than get drained of resources. Some rely on this, not every library can do that. You have to have the resources to do it. But i rely on that kind of time. Peopleleit especially in the new yorker and i need something really fast and is obscure, maybe it will hard to find in the collection lets say in kansas, people will go find it its incredibly incredibly generous. So its a t thing they found her but Something Like when i wrote this book i found at nyu , maybe its a dozen notebooks the dimestore composition that looks like a models cow, calf, they were filled, it was a diary. Say hand written diary really, really expensive. I went down and took a day, one full day, they did not have the resources to do. I photographed for my iphone every single page of the snowbird. I took that day, did some other research lives in the city. But i did not have time to metranscribe the handwriting print in fact thats when i hire graduates to do that work. But the first time, so in places like that occasionally hire somebody for something theres just no way i could find the time to do that transcription work. But last year i was a fellow at on sabbatical. And had this incredibly Generous Research program all they were higher for you, up to four Research Assistants to help you inp whatever project you want the radical institute to depress work in my podcast. I ended up hiring five undergraduates for its first summit never had like a team to do something. We are working on a podcast totally different thing. And that was a case where, like i benefited from brilliance under forceful fun and creative super energetic and to draw so much energy to the project. But you know, thats where its also its really good for students because we met every week to talk about Research Agenda people write what they found agape story ideas. That was super fun. During the second season, i dont have a team anymore. Any need the budget to hire people. Only in extraordinary circumstances or some sort of specific thing. But also, dumb pride. I really like doing the archival work myself. I am sad if i cant do it enough i cant help finding separate i would much rather go be in the archives and chat up in poker of the art archives. And im a little bit too controlling probably to have people do that kind of stuff for me in any routine way. Thats what you have kids . [laughter] incorporate them into your[l work. Did shows history of his life exist . Gould who was a deranged homeless man, who, what your seaborne 1890s 90s he died in 1957. For the beginning of the nineteens beginning to history the book on the history of our time, proposed to be the longest book ever written would be a oral history of everybody that he met. Would write down every word hed everri heard. In these dimestore notebooks and he carried them all around. He was said to be incredible than it was said to have been merely a fiction of his. So my investigation story came because i was teaching on how to write a biography. And this story is actually an object of how not to write a biography. He was the subject of two different essays by the new yorker writer, and coretta boy wonderful vivid writer justice mitchell. He wrote a profile of gould, my gosh it was so ugly dont really remember maybe in 45 . Maybe 42, professor siegel. It was sort of in the middle of the dark days of the war. To store how theyre always be in new york where this crazy guy in Greenwich Village she says hes writing this book. And then in 1964, mitchell published a sickly a retraction called show gould secret which she revealed he was interviewing it right in profile in 1942, the book does not exist. It is a figment of his deranged imagination. And that mitchell confesses that he did not reveal that at the time because in some way always imagining that we are in writing a book that will never finish. The history of our lives, its not ever really going to be a book. Her always hoping to do something you can never quite achieved. Joe gould was there for her heroic in his story was an allegory. An elusiveness of great art. On stuff i to my undergraduates. While i was getting rachel go to class, class aboutin biography, i noticed what i can poorly forgotten but in the original story mitchell says that gould has a will in the pocket of his jacket. This baggy overcoat that are homeless guys wearing. Polls at the well all the he says when it die a third is going but to third sugar to harvard. Wi [inaudible] slick prepping for class and ird thought, my students are going to say that he went to harvard. As if his book never existed because he couldnt find it. Maybe, maybe the book ended up at harvard and has been this catalogued . So we get ready go to class to go to the libra to look for found it was other stuff that prove like everything he said about gould was wrong. I kind of fell down that rabbit hole. Have needing to find out whether the book existed and if mitchell was lying the first time or whether the book didnt exist and he was like a second time. So not nestle raw not nestle line but run. In this self arranged hunt was the actual longest book ever written and supposedly never written. I did find is in the New York Public Library and mitchells papers. And it was incredibly thrilling. And it was funny because the book was a mess. Now joe if i could ask you to get more in the middle of the camera, we do not want to lose your youre almost out of camera range there. We dont want to lose that as we hear from ariel portsmouth new hampshire. Ariel please go ahead. Thank you for taking the culprit i appreciate the fact that youve kept this program for so many years. I want to keep the question simple. I do not want to engage in a long history or radical discussion. I wonder why so few if any academic historians, spend any time dealing with the genocide against American Indians in north america. Specifically when you talk about civics in the 1693 project of the conservative project you talk about restitution for slavery. For example the 1690s project. No one ever talks about restitution for native americans to return to their lands or at least something to it. What is it that is documented the violence and to address this issue that is the fundamental, the foundational issue for north america . Thank you. Civic yes, thanks a much area but i know youre dont want it wrong answer, but i guess i would dispute the premise of your question that they dont study or engage in moral w examination of the genocide of Indigenous People. I think the richest period of scholarship on that subject came at the time of the 500th anniversary of columbus voyage in 1992. But theyre out the 1990s and late 1980s externally proliferation of research. There is a whole world of books published the conquest of america, the invasion of america, its extraordinary research into the ecological consequence explanations are as extraordinary amount of Research Done in that. Its also the case of indigenous studies programs are incredibly vibrant part of academic life. I do see what you mean about the reparations argument as part of the public discourse. The reparations for slavery has kind of a prominence in public discourse. And that is expressed at least in the monument toppling kind of world. Whereas we dont see the same discourse in regard to was to be done with the reckoning not only with of course that genocide in the dispossession, but the manifold betrayal and the ongoing injustice, the denial of nationhood, the abuse of native lands, Police Brutality against Indigenous People which is greater than as a proportion of the population, there is a whole lot to study a whole lot of people doing that work. So i guess i would dispute that its not being done. Whats different in many ways i analytically between the cry for examining slavery and jim crow and the new jim crow is a big bundle of things. This study in genocide and atrocity and just possession, dislocation and of course simulation. As at the civil rights struggle in the United States generally fits in there. The kind of critiques he made that the civil rights struggle theres arguments for reparations, this was in a larger american narrative. In speaking for citizenship and equality in citizens. While for many native people, not all americans seeking rights in full equality as citizens and equal justice under thens law. That analytically is different. Now ive given you far more than you want to hear on this question. Simon a followup email on that from wg be are the initials, will u. S. History, going forward, be exclusively about Racial Injustice . Marginalization and other narratives which define us only in terms of victimhood . Guest no. Its not that now, i dont recognize that as a world in which history isha taught. I am member years ago i was working on a book about the tea party movement. And so i watched a lot of the History Education on fox news, glenn beck if you recall, when the show started 2009 turned his studio into little schoolroom like with an oak desk in a green chalkboard in sean hannity would be lectures on the American Revolution. Beth kept on by the indoctrination of american schoolchildren into the idea the United States has committed atrocities its not an atrocity. That america was a story ofst tRacial Injustice. And this was a big, this is what was being taught in americas schools. And in the course of the book one of my kids i think was in third grade at the timehi there setting the American Revolutionon. Most Public School very liberal city. Watch the kids do what they were doing their breaking into groups to talk about the lexington the boston massacre, the dumping of thest t. And i wrote about it. I felt like i had to write about it because here are these kids are doing the most conventional things like what were the objections of the sons of the liberty Parliamentary Authority prayed that the sons of liberty want to make peace of think . Or t did they want to have no . When did they change their mind. [laughter] it was your basic civics which is pretty much what goes on. So, its timmy largely mythical that also in that struggle that there were petitions sent by enslaved people in boston to the massachusetts saying okay if you guys believe in natural rights thats great, thats actually part of that story. That is part of the story pray the problem is not making that a part of the story pray the problem is the generations of historians that left that out of the story pretended it never happened. From idaho you are on book tv withda us. Caller hey jill, thanks so much for what you do. I appreciate it. It is great to hear from you and see what you are doing stuff like this, because im sure it is not easy. Jill, i dont know, im in the pacific northwest. And what i can tell you about what is going on here, i even idaho, washington, it is the wild west right now. It is pretty interesting. We are at wash, their movements we have a brandnew female Lieutenant Governor who, nobody knew much about her and she was elected this year. Were like okay idahos good have women, and then when the hit, she went far righ right. Create a little civil war here between the Republican Party in the state. And a lot of people have been listening to her. We have paul at jordan the democrat in native American Woman who is really popular. So what we have been seeing her here, this region never really had the slavery issue. We just werent even a state of that point during the civil war. So we did not have the protests and everything going on. Its pretty exciting. What i can tell you is, women are really taking over. They are rising around heres what i can tell you. My new doctor is a woman. The women have in our judicial around here, they are the jailers, they are the police. Sue at alright ned i think you got your idea. Switch it thanks for calling ne ned. Sounds like theres a lot going on thats captured your attention. And maybe you and a lot of people think differently, one thing i will sayab about the story about womens political participation is just how long it was that mail politicians expected women to vote as a block. Something aboutti being female you had a particular kind of politicalti sympathy. Theres a big reason why took womens long to get to vote, right . Because if women are going to vote as a block theyre going to really destabilize politics. Its really when women are not going to vote as a block. Women are going to vote like everybody else does, people in their family neighborhood does. That makes it possible for women to gain the right to vote. But then it turns out, over the last few elections, that there are some political sympathies that were never a part of an agenda for women. You know, the big think its 1980 the word gender gap is going toge talk about voter preference, females voters general lack of enthusiasm for ronald reagan. That kind of gap hassm been noticed and many elections since. And of course at the moment, it is the black female voter that has captured a think the nation, the Political Press is kind of the new boater to watch. I myself am less convinced these demographic categories are all that define us. Now thats a whole other story. Part of that story is told in these truths. Reports on campaigns inc. Which was founded in the 30s. I was the First Political Consulting Firm ever created in the u. S. Lindas in melbourne beach, florida, linda please go have ndyour question. Caller are right, high. I have a question. So when linda gaffin turned on your tv and then just talk into your telephone dont listen to anything else. So when thank you very much. Sue three high, i have a question. I have a comment. I am 70 years old. And70 back in the 70s i asked my grandmother a lot of questions about my familys history. Andea her grandfather and greatgrandfather both fought in the civil war. And she talked about the things that they talked about. And one was at gettysburg, and what was the battle of atlanta and everything like that. What i learned in what she said, that they were a people who had a sense of honor. There are certain rules based on what we think today. I think we should celebrate and go even further. My grandfather went outou to fight indians in the west. I came back because it could not live with himself to put them on reservations. He said my indian friends back home would never forgive me. The question is, in my grandmothers writing she said the family motto was, never forget french mens bay. Unfortunately, it got lost. I know we were here he came over on the main flower it was in maine. I called the Maine Historical society, but how would i research that . I would really love to find out what happened in Frenchmans Bay . Switch to. [laughter]au sue and thank you also her comment about judging previous history. Yeah, thanks so much linda. I love the enthusiasm for your Family History. I wish you well, figuring out the mystery, i think you want to go to local library talk to the library and there about the best method would be. They have Research Tools that are available through mostd public libraries, often they have partnerships with Research Universities have more searching tools that will help it totally a solvable question. So i think you will get there. And dont hurry as this search will be more fun than finding out what Frenchmans Bay was all about for your family. Right into the introduction to these truth its not the job of the historian to be immortal. And i believe that. It is our instincts, both in the presence and thinking about the past to judge one ruthlessly. That is among the chief problems. Everyone is concerned about who to blame for what is going on the country right now. Very few people think about how the response works. I think personally spending a lot of time re litigating the past has a real limit to its fertility. Now i once had a long conversation with some undergraduates who were outraged about something they had read about that we were studying prayed they wanted to know why i was not more enraged about it. I said 20 think your Carbon Footprint is today . There electricity was brought to you, we got to the point person indicted an historical record have been in his lifetime to the planet. Well be judged by future generations by having destroyed the earth. So there is very little worse than what we have done in our lifetime. Might generation inn particular. Which makes it i think a very extraordinary act to condemn people part which is not to say were not involved in thinking about right and wrong. And how to remedy wrongs. That is our obligation as lipeople, its part of our duty to one another. And that is a good reason to study the past. But to stick tout the path jumped past with humility people are not actually better than the present. We have institutions do a better job of protecting one another from our worst impulses. Tt rights, we have nationstates and protect those rights we have constitutions to enforce the law. We have things that make it much better to be a human being. A flawed creature today than in many previous centuries for sur sure. And also protect those institutions it will be as wrong to one another as people generations. People themselves are a lot better. Spill it near burning came in 2005 in that book you will learn that one inni four new yorkers at one point was an enslaved person. You also learn about how wall street was built and founded. Neal, beachwood ohio go ahead. See there have two related questions but i believe i saw commentary from professor lepore riesling. Corporate influence on universities. First question is, do you believe that harvard is awarding 2017 and honorary doctor of laws justifiable. Given that facebook has a reputation for being the greatest transmitter and disseminate her with this information in the world. And mr. Zuckerberg himself has attention. Soon bravo sometime have to cutti you off what is your second question . Smacked you believe its wise for universityde president s to sit on corporate boards . To what thank you sir. Corporate entities and colleges based. I think hes referring to an article i did made some. Emarks im perfectly happy to be public with this agreement the eruniversitys decision to award an Honorary Degree part im a very vocal opponent. I know there are people out here involved think they are tremendously good people that work at facebook and have every Good Intention and would like the company to not be destroying civil communities and political institutions. But in fact it is i think the company is probably going to need to be dismantled if we can find a way forward. Ive quite strong views about that. Look. We are at the end of our tim time . Host yes answer this question what it meant to pray this is from tom. We read to regulate in the new yorker youre never disappointed and reminded me somehow something we wrote over a year ago, the lingering of loss, smart, move coming what do contemporary fiction writers do appreciate . Have about 30 seconds lead to personal essays is unusual thing for me to it do and good for you for straight nonfiction with pretty big and ambitious thing. I dont read as much as i used to because of so many writing assignments. I probably read it five times i tend to read which i really love and enjoy. There is some ill maddox corporation. And we thank you for your time today on booktv. Guest thanks have a trace back now on cspan2 book tv, more television for serious readers. Welcome to our Cato Institute conversation with pj orourke. I am david bowes executive Vice President of cato. Throughout this program will be be taking questions and you can submit them via the Cato Institute webpage, facebook, twitter, or youtube. And use the cato events. We have many distinguished scholars at the Cato Institute. Scholars in constitutional studies, economics