Transcripts For CSPAN2 Lisa Napoli Up All Night 20240712

Of them as i possibly can as time allows. We will be broadcasting excerpts of this interview on Second Thought this friday. You will hear me what we do reid to keep consistence while we are going. Im so excited to speak with lisa napoli, who got her first journalism job at cnn after interning at cnn new york and dc bureaus as a teenager. Shes a reporter for the new york times, marketplace, msnbc, and many other outlets. She is author of two previous books ababout the man who made the mcdonalds fortune and the woman who gave it all away. Lisa, thank you so much for being with us, really excited about talking about this book. Lisa back at you, thank you so much, i use the Atlanta History Center for research so im delighted to be virtually what the constituency now. Its difficult for people watching to imagine life before news was all the time or what Television News look like before cnn launched four years ago. Just how out there was this idea of 24hour, 24 7 Cable News Network before cnn . Lisa until ted turner turned the switch on w tcg channel 17 over on west peachtree street on that, there was no tv all night. Its really hard for people to imagine but before cable had come along and before ted had the idea, television stopped after usually the late movie. It was off all night until it fluttered on at dawn. The idea of an allnews or all anything channel was like a spaceship from mars. Crazy, unimaginable. The man behind this shot, ted turner, people of a certain vintage no w tcg channel 17 here in atlanta made him a legendary figure here also owning the Atlanta Braves helped a lot. s early life maybe not so well known. He inherited the business of billboard business from his father, hard drinking, womanizing, ted worked for on and off were some of the early signs of the unfiltered persistent risk loving entrepreneur he became . Lisa he inherited the billboard business and from the very beginning he saw he was theatrical. He saw grandeur in even a billboard but it wasnt enough for him. As he got first into radio and then into tv he was just a no holds barred kind of person. The first thing he did really in any measure was steel the braves telecast from wsb by coming in and overbearing. He didnt have the money really, he certainly didnt have the audience but he stole it from wsb but he would do things, ive heard from a number of people that he would stomp on peoples desks and say, by add time for me even though he had no abthey had no idea who he was and why they should spend add time from him. He was a very colorful and no filter person who was persistent. Its a classic business story, he didnt take no for an answer. He didnt let anything defeat him. Even the fact that nobody was watching his television station that he spends money that he really didnt have on. This business that he started, it also started with tragedy. He was left holding the reins of his fathers business after his father killed himself. He was just 24 years old at that time. He started buying radio station, then this first ab give us a sense of how fran g uhs or cable stations were at that point . Lisa napoli i dont know who is out there but for people who might remember the time when you had to get up off the couch and turn a dial to tune into a station and maybe have rabbit ears on top of the television to just precisely tune in a station, uhs versus vhs, it was super friends, it was called the lunatic fringe because it was very hard to tune in and even if you had the right devices. There was very little that was airing on it. They had to really scramble for programming. It was a big gamble, it sounds glamorous to buy a television station but that kind of television station was really in the motherland at that time. s. The concept was. As part of the licensing run a television station, you needed to show a certain amount of Public Affairs on the air. And ted was decidedly anti news which is why this is such a great story. He was not a crusading news fellow at all. He crusading against the news but he had up at a certain part of it on the air. He talked with the young radio announcer was stumbled into the station pretty hope he is out there, hes out there say hello. Bill. He stumbled into the station it with all these other young folk who were just tantalized by the prospect of television, he basically had been the sort of guy who through the short straw is the station and announcer had treated the requisite newscast. It evolved over time into a fun requisite newscast that was not like any other. Now we have lampooned in the news on that all the time. But he and the crew in the middle of the nights or it aired in the middle of the night, fitted joke newscast because they didnt want to really do a serious one. They had to persuade their boss, the station manager that it was okay that it would fulfill the fcc requirements for news. And it became they did it tongueincheek for themselves. But it turned out that the station was being sent out a crummy southeast. And ultimately around the nation. And it became the sort of signature or one of the signatures of the entire statio station. Along with the georgia chapin shipper wrestling. [laughter] guest one critic called it a masterpiece of bad taste. For a television station. But i do want to get where i talk were started be broadcast outside of the state. There was an fcc rule change in 1972 which met bill started getting fan mail from outside of atlanta. So the question was why were people watching a georgia station and nebraska . Guest because they could. Even now, even those of us who remember those days, it is so hard to imagine that there is a time when there are just a few stations. And when most of them went off at night, few were left up at night in kansas, and there was bill in the middle of the night doing funny things it seems like it was live, wow, you kept watching it because you are so thankful there is a late night movie and builds entertain you. So is proof of concept without them calling at that. Basically ted, this storage is the perfect marriage. And i love that it is centered in atlanta had not a typical Media Capital like los angeles, or new york, or d. C. So basically ted ennis and mary band of tb folks, together with a moment in time that technology allowed, or pumping out what they were doing first locally, then regionally then nationally. And showing the power of 24 hour news. The power of cable which was a very unsexy thing and in trouble right now. But then it was like the internet, or the tesla of television at that time that allowed tv to rev up, god help us, to new heights. Host that was also a shot across the bow at the three Major Networks that had been deciding what news was and what programming should be for a really long time. They created this kind of wild west. And ted turner one sin. But as you said he was not a news guy. And he was considered a downer. Salt was the appeal for him starting an all new 24 hour news station . Submit it once she got word that a little upstart called Home Box Office was playing around with cable the same way he was playing around with cable, that is going more regionally than just in the area where it was licensed. He heard about this guy, jerry live in and his hbo and how they were going to be met up to a satellite and then broadcasted around the nation, he wanted to do that too. And he nipped jerry lippin was going to do that with movies. And movies were tough because read a license it and get all the rights to them. He wanted to do it maybe with sports. But if he did it with sports would cannibalize the main ingredients of channel 17. So he thought, maybe i will do it with music and somebody said thats a dumb idea. No one will ever watch music on television. So finally the last grasp of what he could do with this technology, it really was a way to use this new technology, was news. Alt news radio had just started bubbling up in some markets. Somebody thought that might be interesting. And even if that wasnt his thing is his entree into using the satellite as a way to spread a station throughout the nation. Sue and news has no copyright. News has no copyright. It is expensive to produce but they found the cheapest way to produce it and thats the next part of the story. So when heres a question from gm et cetera really enjoyed the book since it started doing jokey news quote unquote, late at night to fulfill the fcc requirements for Public Service programming, did anyone of the sec take notice they were doing comedy riffs on Current Events rather than straight news . Guest i never noticed anything that suggested that. Maybe somebody out there knows. Because there are no records from that station. Everything i found was kind of cobbled together from peoples personal archives. But no ive never found anythin anything. That is part and parcel but nobody really cared. No one was paying that close of attention. As a general manager there, he was apparently a gust in a steer grown up on premises. And he basically took issue with it. And bill said, nobody said theres a rule as it had to be serious. So they managed to get away with it. So what i think there is not a lot of oversight of the stations at that moment in time. So many of them came and went. People went out of business with them. Ted picked up another one and a fire sale in charlotte because the man who started that just couldnt make it add up. So they were just really on the lunatic fringe. Guest there was some serious involves. In they said thats what theyre thing wrong with Television News becomes a major player. He has a vision far beyond what the Big Three Networks are doing. So what is his vision . And how does ted turner come into this . He embodies a number of men at the time who are trying to buck those networks. For years people been trying to pierce that network stranglehol stranglehold, not just the news but on entertainment. But the problem always was that it was impossible to bust through. Because they owned literally the airwaves. Until then been struggling in various jobs over the years to try to figure out how to do it. As had some other men. And basically, he had been trying to sell news2 ted for wtc g as an independent for years. He had a news service that he was involved with. And he thought that, one that he started one previous to the one he started he was involved with he just wanted ted to get on board because other independent stations had an kit ted kept saying no, no absently not a hate the news i will never do the news. So ted did decide to do news. That is who he called was reese. Reese was as hardcore news as ted was anti news. So they made a very unusual pai pair. But they both had the same goal in mind. And that was busting the conventional system of the networks. Sue and someone just commented that ted was cable before cable was cool. He didnt actually say that though until the early 80s after cable did start getting cool. Because up until the point it was cool, nobody understood or cared, even the people who worked for him for the large part, thought he was crazy. The other thing he did, virginia, that ive not mentioned yet along with bill touching playing movies and sports, no one would buy these commercial time from him. So he got into the direct mail. Again today we go on the internet, we order something in his second will be at the door in a couple of hours. Back then, if you could watch a Television Commercial for a product like a ginsu knife and order it and get it delivered, that was a thrill. Besides convenience, it was utilitarian. So those kind of ads were the mainstay of teds broadcasting. And as he was able to get that station out more and more and even cnn at the beginning, it was able to prove that people were watching. Because orders were coming in from all over the United States and also the caribbean. So there was mail coming in. Because there were no ratings. There was a hunger to watch this stuff. Going to put up point in the end because it comes into the story a little bit later. But teds renegade reputation was wellestablished by then. One critic says starting a new station was attila the hun running summer camp for the elderly. [laughter] there so many great question questions. There is a wonderful scene where he comes and sees ted it is ramshackle station or rate and snow comes through, it comes to the roof it is a bit of a dive. And they talk about what it would actually take to create a new station so can you give us a little sense of that conversation . Well basically, they were at odds because reese could not imagine would start a new station in a place like atlanta in the late 1970s. Ted wanted it to be in atlanta he didnt really understand exactly what he wanted to have on it except he wanted to have this channel. Reese was very excited about the idea of finding a star. And they felt they needed some sort of journalistic credibilit credibility. Because teds reputation at that point was super wild. He was a yachtsman of the year, he was publicly drunk, he was publicly crazy, all over the place with women. And so they needed somebody sobering. And reese said i think we should try to go after dan rather. And it wasnt entirely clear who dan rather was. That is how checked out of the news world he was. That story comes from reese. I dont know that it is absolutely true. I believe it in the sense that ted just did not watch the news. It was not important to him. It would make sense he wasnt certainly home at 6 30 at night when the network news ran. Too busy working all the time. And sailing. And running around his lady friends. It was not very clear most famous news man in america was second after Walter Cronkite. Would be maybe possibly someone who go after. He had another show. Cbs had to cut back on another show that dan rather did. Reese was pretty sure if they had enough money they could pull him, theyre pretty confident. Select that was part of the talent they were in atlanta. This is far away from new york or los angeles, television capitals that were there at that time. In the other challenge, reese never imprisoned in hour of live television. Hes signing up to do this 24 7 365 days a year. It was a real hustle to find that and turn and abandon country club into an elaborate sets and a newsroom. So what does it mean to bring people to atlanta . What kind of challenge . Guest it wasnt entirely clear anyone would watch this. Even veteran newspeople, only some saw this is an intoxicating proposition. It thought it was outrageously insane that anyone would watch it. If thats what watching the news is like eating your vegetables. But back to your question, basically ted found as a location or his people found an old left for dead country club at tech wood. It was the old Progressive Club that had been sitting there for years. It was maybe going to be developed maybe not. They had to retrofit this old club with wraps it up pretty quickly in order to have it ready. Satellite dishes had to be installed. They were huge, they were not common. He was going to have the largest array of satellite dishes ever installed at that point. But also decides the equipment , and there is a lot of story here about the changing technology, was the human resources. And as you say, convincing people to move to atlanta for something that might not work, was not a foregone conclusion. So basically, a reese and his folks, Ted Kavanaugh was one of his chief producers but he may be on the call to. They decide what they needed to do was get cheap labor, the tried and true is to go out and find young people who were willing for less than minimum wage, offer the chance to have this starry eyed moments in television that they could not get because they were only three networks in a few hours of news produced every day. There is no chance for them to get work if they were not the creme de la creme. So that is what they did. Several of the men including Ted Kavanaugh went out and went to Journalism School and rallied around people. And well, hundreds of tapes were streaming into the makeshift quarters on west peace tree streets. Their people in local news who are dying to have the chance to be on the air or produce network news, again there were not that many opportunities at the actual networks. There were people who were willing to put their life on hold. The other thing that happens it was also incredibly unusual at the time, people find it fascinating, is that hiring couples was verboten. Or keeping couples pretty few had met your husband or guy at the television station you worked at, you would have to leave. If reese could get a 241, a couple maybe one was a camera person was an anchorwoman, he went for it. And it was cheaper to move them. They were invested in the place because everybody was marching towards this deadline of 1980. Tech wood drives facility helping the tax. And basically making it all up. We do know that they did pass on one upandcoming journalist named oprah winfrey. One named charlie rose, so although they were able to stop in the story is remarkable how they got this going in a year. It was like a started before startups actually happened. Operating like a Training Camp for text. It just crackles with excitement at this frat house atmosphere. How fresh for those stories when people told them to you . Some people held back the really fun drugs and stories that is still here about now. Especially now that the book is actually out. Because it was a big wild toga party apparently. But everybody who i talked to was so thrilled to be sharing that moment in time. Because whatever they did with the rest of their lives, whether they stayed in television or scurried out of the business after a year, they all had a memorable incredible experience. Because how often do you get to build something completely new . I think in many ways it ruined a lot of people. After you have that thrill of the building something from scratch, Everything Else in the aftermath is going to seem hohum. You start wedging into an existing structure. But this book was so much fun to write, and parsed because there is no clearcut obvious source. Cnn did not help me in any way. And even if they had, i would not have relied entirely on what they had to say. Because this is so completely not a corporate book. It is so anti or un corporate for it is not the message you want to get out about a place that might have failed. That all the people that came there did not know what dhec was going on. He is not a clearcut blueprint toward success. It was a majestic experiment and could have been a tremendous accident. I guess were talking about her book, up all night, ted turner cnn and the birth of 24 hour news protocol was recorded for the atlantic History Centers virtual talk series. The book was a wonderful an early to mid 80s it was like having a front row seat to turner and cnn. What if anything did not make the book that you would have liked to of included . And other words what were the tough edits . Guest more about drugs and. [laughter] a lot of it i could not verify. It really was not supposed to be completely tawdry. As very proud that i was able to distill very concentrated moment in time. I know i left things out. But i cant think of anything major that i felt oh wow, i wish i could have been able to wedge that in. The sense of excitement is what i wanted to convey and it makes me happy if someone feels it was there. A big, i dont if im stealing a line of questioning by saying where the bigger things i found, wasnt sure if ill be able able to find was when ted turner went to cuba to visit castro who had been pirating the signal almost from the inception of the channel. As very delighted that ted turner staff and his office mate a copy of the video for me. Because i wanted to see it for archival purposes. I wanted to understand their interaction. Because of that was in a normal scoundrel interaction that the head of a tv network, even a new one that most people did not know, but make the trek to cuba, about enemy number one at the time or none and share one of the avowed enemies of the United States, and canoodle with fidel castro and his private island. So that was a fascinating twist in the book. Is basically a conservative. I even accepted that invitation, why do you think he did . Guest i think he was dazzled that a world leader was actually watching what he brought spirit it was a thrill print if you make something as you know well that someone consumes it. And it was so uncertain. And hed gone through so many obstacles which i detail in the book, that could have killed cnn before even started. Even once it started is what we call a soft launch it now pretty is not guaranteed is going to keep growing. It was only a couple million homes to start. The idea that all of the said and even is about enemy of the United States was issuing an invitation, was incredibly flattering. I think on a certain level, ted felt that he would never really take him seriously, impart because of his behavior. And then all the said and the idea that somebody was enormously serious would be reaching out and wanting to tal talk. That was not only lifechanging for him and terms of the course he set cnn on after that, but affirming for him to. They had to fight at cnn and the early days to even get themselves part of the White House Press pool. Again it seems like an obvious thing now. But then it was not. It is not easy for anyone on the fringes of this networks to penetrate that very vaunted inter circle. All the said after that site mike was basically still fighting it to have fidel castro say i would like to meet you. That is heavy. So when you presented is a very transformational moment in a life of ted turner as well. This television station, this thing that was growing in leaps and bounds, fidel castro was pirating the signals here is cnn headline news, cnn two, is moving into Global Markets and is cnn international. He begins to see it as something more than a mark, more than a money maker, more than a risk. But something that could actually change the world. How do you think that went for ted turner . I think it went enormously deep. I think its also important, probably not the most captivating part of the story, that while all of that growth you mentioned was going on, the world is changing simultaneously. Its very hard for us to remember that was a moment and time when it was not just ted who was experimenting, lots of other people were experimenting. All around the world this technology was revolutionizing everything. All sorts of communication. So he was able to, as he marched on, penetrate more markets, more nations. And he got hungry. The fever of that was a thrill for him. He was going to be this person wiring up or using the wires that were wiring up the world to transmit this force for good. That was intoxicating to him as well. Yeah, absolutely. Stu and how did avoid hiring union broadcast technicians and how important wasnt to cnn and the early days . Guest enormous. It never wouldve worked without it. As another reason atlanta was incredibly wonderful place. And also there were issues in new york and d. C. They got around it and los angeles. They were dropping out to a third party. His controversial, is one of the reasons the White House Press pool did not what cnn and its because they were using nonunion labor. Yes, there is no way that cnn, with the budget it had could ever have got off the ground at that moment in time. Yeah. So what im so because of a brought this up i love this character. Among the many characters in the early days that cnn was Ted Kavanaugh, hard boiled concealed newsmen. We dont get to see him in the book, how long did he stay at cnn and what was his biggest impact on the channel . Guest all take second part of the question first. Ted kavanaugh rallied the troops. He literally was a ring leader. I was on a cnn anniversary call, and alumni call the honor of the 40th anniversary. Which i forgot to mention is part of the reason the book came out when it did. As it just happened. And to hear the reverence in adulation for ted, all of these years later. Forty years later, was magnificent. I knew people revered him. I knew that he was a commanding presence, a commanding force. But he basically got everybody motivated at a time when they really werent sure that it was going to work. He was not even sure it was going to work. It was magnificent a few weeks ago to see people the respect they gave him and the thanks they gave him that were delayed. They never had a chance to thank him before. That was a real privilege to witness that. That basically, ted went on to start Ted Kavanaugh, went on to start cnn to which became his headlines which is a another huge legacy of his for sure. Thats the whole book in itself. Into the person asked before they left out, there are many books after words from the time that i chose to stop this. There was just no way to write it all the time. Time warner, aol, people of britain books. But cnn to an creation and Ted Kavanaugh stories about the formation of cnn two are fantastic. And after that he went and did some special projects, special investigative reporting. Ran a unit for a a while within cnn. So he was not there a terribly long time given the places been around 40 years. But every Single Person along the way who interacted with him, he is a memorable person, honored and privileged to have gotten to know him in the course of writing this book to help tell his story because i think its really important. It was a big deal who note went on june of 1980 despite hiccups certainly. And the News Organization lets say cheering for its fall, how are they find all this news . It is because cnn had to fill time that a crew was following president reagan to his newsy speech in a Washington Hotel in march of 1981 when he gets shot, can you set that scene for us . Why that was such a big deal for cnn. That was an amazing day a year after cnn went on the air. It was still only in several million homes, there still were not that many homes in the nation that could receive it because table the cities were not wild for cable at that point. So that went with the animosity of the networks and the jealousy and the disbelief on the part of the networks that anyone would care about news 24 7. Combined to make a perfect storm, on march 30, 1981 when the president was shocked, there was a crew. There is always a group, the White House Pool crew was always with the president in this event in case something would happen to him. But cnn was not allowed to be part of that pool. They happen to be inside as you say at the speech he happened to be giving that was time for liver cnn, cnn needed a lot of at that time. And basically it is a long story, i detail in the book. It was basically a day that put cnn on the map in the minds of the press corps. And that helped make them aware that there is not just a zest for the news but the dangers that were introduced to because of 24 hour news. Because of the immediacy of news that we had not really seen and measurable form since president kennedy had been shot. I invite anyone who is a student of media history, which of course i am in a major way, go on youtube and watch Walter Cronkite talk about, or any of the other anchors who talk about the shooting and subsequent death of president kennedy and you get a flavor for white 24 hour news is a very dangerous, as well as riveting and convening force. And that day that president reagan was shot in 1981, was really peoples worst fears about news and news being reported like a sporting event at it was unfolding. And all of the attendant issues and inaccuracies that can happen as a result. In the cascading effect of bad news being delivered instantly. We live it all every day now, we limit instantaneously, constantly to our peril and detriment i think. But that was one of the first times we saw that. in realtime. The news not reporting its aftermath anymore while it is unfolding as something reese really wanted to do. This is the big question that readers are left with. Especially during these first decades of cnn, whether it was covering significant things or creating significant by covering them, right . And playing for creating a churn of breaking news, breaking all of the time. So the origin of 24 7 news something we should celebrate . Guest i can tell you personally what i think. I avoided it in the book because i felt like it was really important to write this book now. Course i did not know when it was in process that we would be in the situation that we are in right now. But i think it is super important for people to have the dialogue. We dont have dialogues anymore. We shout at each other. Thats why welcome this conversation with you. Because news has deteriorated and did militate in our society. Im very sad about it. I feel i am beyond minor player in anything in the media. But i am so grateful to not be working in daytoday media right now. I struggle with its impact enormously. Which is why i think i enjoy writing the history of it. I think its only if we study the history of it that if we shutdown the polarization or trace back the polarization that we have in our society today, tuesday News Business three cnn certainly president nixon railed against the press as much as the president today does. In a different way. In the press was different. What we have been seeing is a societal breakdown because of television and since televisions inception. And before that was sought because of radios inception. I think my last book was about the creation of fast food and the woman who took that money and gave it all away. I was had the same thing back then. You know, i cannot solve why we became enamored with eating food out of packages as we ran aroun around, but i can explain how it happened. An understanding it makes me a smarter and more thoughtful hopefully human and consumer. And i say the same thing about news. If you think about its impact and how it broke down and you take it from even just the beginning of the book that i have drawn out here with up all night, for those who have not read it doesnt begin in the late 40s with another incident that set the tone for television and news. If you look at the arc for the next 4050, 60 years, you really get a hardcore sense of how society and media have broken down. Sue and yeah, its a longwinded way of saying. You also talk about unite in the story you write about and the people who bought the book. Its just a terrific way to frame the book two. What was going on in the 40s when people could not keep their eyes off the story thats about human interest. I cant keep their off the latest political facts being chewed over and over and over. Going to try to tie a couple of questions from the audience here in that. Its a hyperactive guy ted was eventually a conservative. How over time it morphed into this institution, reviled by political conservatives speak to it so interesting. It takes on a certain certain age, which i happen to be, to remember that politics did not used to enter into a Television Channel president nixon felt the news was too liberal however, its not the world we lived in today and is aptly not teds intent, point out he was a conservative people to see that it is not about politics. He did not start this with some mission that he needed to have a political agenda put forth. In fact, schonfeld would not have allowed it if he had. He was afraid when he joined him that maybe there is an undercurrent to that. He quickly realized that was not the case. What has become today, and when i secretly say in 1996 when fox started, that is when cnn had to shuffle and respond to competition. Until it had competition. The issues that were raised were those of accuracy. And what is news. Rates the question, what is new news. Its a little girl in a well news . As a shuttle exploding in the aftermath news . What is news . Once fox came along and has very decided points of view, that forced cnn to scramble. Of course it is a whole of the book in and of itself. Im sure it has been written, i am not going to read it. We have lived it. We have lived it. That is what causes the polarization of Political Force that these channels have become. We went ted turners used to Wander Around the studio in his bathroom in the middle of the night hitting on women, saying out rages often racist things. He would still be canceled toda today. This is very much this book is about a time capsule and a time when things were quite different, thank goodness for many, many reasons. But also, i was wondering about the people that you spoke to what they think, what ted turner thanks about what happened to cnn. What about the people who were there during the early days how did they feel about what happens is very idealistic project after mark. Guest i cannot speak for all the people of course for there were 300 people there at the beginning. But i will say that i have noticed in chatter with various places on social media and in talking with people, there is a sense of distress about what news and what cable news has become. You know, that was just an unthinkable concept back and then that you introduce, you might have a commentator on, you never have what you have today but which it decided point of view from cnn and msnbc so i think the people are sad and perhaps disillusioned about what has become of it for sure. Absolutely. I know i am. I find it on watchable. I think everybody is proud to have contributed not to speak for everyone. I think people were there at the creation and they should. It was an exciting time. Henry ford in the car, attend and that being a very polarized person as well. Any invention, any creation i used to cover the internet and the very beginning of the web. That was an exciting and thrilling time we were always asking the questions of its impact. And societal changes that were sprung forth because of it. I guess i dont mean to sound so man be pam b. But i am. Important to talk about how the cell phone changed our lives. How the computer changed our lives, made them better and richer and also distracted us, fractured us. I will find answer your questio question. Soon i think its what you said its a discussion. Theres no court of pat answer for Something Like that. The toothpaste is out of the tube and it has evolved in a way that it evolved. So lets go out on a sort of bright and triumphant note. We have, that i never really addressed here, ted turner the sailor. You know the yachtsman, the winner of the americas cup. I know that was part of the revelation for you writing this book was seeing who he was in that part of his life. As someone who really could run things in a really determined way. Guest you know every single day that is writing this book for even now when you said that i get chills thinking about it. Yes, he wouldve been run out of town today. As many men would have been after that era. Just to point out its a completely different one. When you think about the way that ted turner lived his life, he lived it so large. We should all have a fraction of the gumption and thrill to watch the old sailing films. If you can see any of them, they are a complete and total thrill to see him young and handsome without a shirt on. All of these other handsome men with all these fabulous engineering creations in the water, working so hard together. It is just so exciting to see. And to see him at a base bug game a few days later screaming his lungs out, chewing tobacco, running bases around the field. He lived life to the absolute fullest. That was way before jane fonda came along. Way before jane fonda was a gleam in his eye. That man just seized the moment. And yes he was born into means and he took the memes and grew it. Such a privilege to read and understand him again very complex character. Thats older myself i look for people fractured state right now that he knows he lived his life in such a grand he lived it, he lived it so thats what can all hope. Host did you speak with him for the book . I know dementia has progressed certainly. Guest i did it. I did not even try. Theres so much that he said, that he wrote, that was written about him, speeches that he gave. And knowing the state he is in, it just seems almost pointless and cruel. In biography, youre trying to go back to a moment in time. And yeah, so no i would not. I wish i couldve known him when he was younger. We are couple over so i just have to ask you i know theres a movie deal the works that kind of thing can go on forever, that is not in your control. If you have any inkling who would play ted . [laughter] i am such a pop culture dogs. I have not got a clue. But the people did buy the rights had mentioned it was too bad that George Clooney wasnt a little bit younger. He wouldve been perfect, perfect ted turner. But i am so bad, i welcome everyones suggestions, not that i had anything to do with it. But it would be so much fun. And he would play Ted Kavanaugh and bill . That is as important to me. So i hope it gets said. I wanted want to say that i didnt say the beginning i did get signed bookplates to a cappellas of it even with a signed book i am happy to get one to them. Host such a great book id so much fun reading it. What a pleasure it has been speaking with you. Thank you so much i really appreciated. Thank you all for being here. Theres a lot of unbelievable stories we did not get to. You can buy this book from a cappella books there is a link in the chat to the right of your screen. It really is one for the ages. On Second Thought is going to be broadcasting excerpts from this interview this coming friday at 11 00 a. M. You can stream it are in the ap app. And thats another packed week here is a virtual author talks but i was a jessica hamlet is going to be in introducing heather lind about bears. On thursday, they are in conversation about writing the southwood should be great and i will be back on tuesday, july 21 to talk about life is in the transition. Its a great book pretty collected stories of people have been through wrenching life changes. The very timely book in its own way. Theres a full schedule and zoom links Atlanta History Center. Com. And guilt for joining us. I tried to get in as many questions as i could. I really appreciate it. By lisa thank you. Guest thank you so much. Now in cspan2 book tv, more television for serious readers. Rod smith is with us this morning he is a spokesman for the turning point usa and also author of a book always a soldier, service, sacrifice and coming out is americans favorite black yea republican. Rob smith what is this book