Chat. And again when we are planning this tour i cant wait to get into the conversation. And again this is not anything that we ever wouldve amended when we were all having or towards the end of last year but we are adaptable. We will take in that we know any of you are watching right now probably could not have physically gotten here tonight. But you can join us virtually. Again, i will reiterate. You should treat this is if you are in the bookstore. It when youre in the bookstore for reading, then you buy books. So please do that. And it would be great if they were debbies books. But really, buy a lot of books. You know by just one opening the bookstore coming by a lot of books. But i imagine debbie, needs no introduction. But i will just briefly say. I think was what is great if you look at her body of work, you see two very strong claims. Amongst the social justice and the theme of defining america and who gets to define america. She is dennis and looks like freedom summer and essentially an of the books. She did it in the interesting intersection with the 60s trilogy. And she got so much acclaim for that. Now shes done it again with penn state. Its a Remarkable Book as anybody or knows me knows, i believe one of the best things that i have worked on as an editor and 25 years. I think it is a masterpiece. I think it is a book that defies adversary station and basically as with the 60s trilogy, some people, they just like the novel forms. They liked novels embraced trait forward away. When debbie is done in this part of her career she has decided to push the limit of what a book can do. And so rather than just sort of sitting back and accepting first genre and conforming her story to the genre, she will in fact invent our own place to tell the story. The trilogy, she invented the documentary novel its a way of getting this wide look at the 60s. In the choices that were being made. And not all the conflicts that were being there and then with penn state, she wanted to tell the story with not just with one voice but any. So again she invented a form that fits the story perfectly. So it is an honor to work with you always debbie. But it is certainly wonderful to get to talk to you about this extraordinary book. I will get to the questions of how this book came to be buried in the writing process and editing process. One thing i will start with the obvious question. Just as we did not anticipate last having Virtual Events and being in this world that we are in a month in the big strand of where we are right now is a cultural protest. And everything that is happening when we think about penn state when they thought everything was going on. From the people protests, trump, to guessing people so they can go and hold bible up. Its just theory how does come all around again. Heres the scary part but often the inspiring parts as well. So it hasnt been like. He spent researching life and interrogating penn state in your mind. And then this is the world we are in. What has been going through your mind and looking at our world the lenses of the book. Seated before i answer the question, going to turn off the lights. Because i think youre giving me feedback. Use of marriage. [silence]. Debbie i think that will help. How is that, as a better. So one of the things, will first of all. It is unbelievable. We could not have planned this. This book came out in a pandemic but at the same time that the United States is over the same sorts of issues and we were looking at during this time pending the home worked in all of the things going on. And define campus billing for students and one being denied. And they were exercising their First Amendment rights. So what is so inspiring to see right now is the people who are doing the very thing. Getting out there and exercising their First Amendment rights. So its testing. The rallying on having their voices heard. Free speech and say what you feel and what you believe in and have the right to do that. It is also been scary to watch the National Guard be called out. And once again, even more militarized now than it was in 1970. To look at the scenario. Really to talk about this is that it doesnt happen again. And here we are again. Such a surreal time. Im grateful to have written the book in the response that we have had so far. Terminus people are picking this up from wordofmouth. And then posting in various places saying, thats just like today. The echoes of today. Back in 1970, are amazing. Ive been humbled i guess its really it. It just really humbled by it. That response in the middle of a pandemic has been overwhelming. Catechins at this right back to you too. I want to say thank you for always being such risk takers with me. I knew this was a receipt for nine in the 60s trilogy books for a big risk. But one thing is led to another. And how can we make this happen even to the new book that we are now working on. So thank you for that. Good to talk to you. It is so good to see you two. [laughter]. Last time i think i saw you was in january. And we were talking about being on the road together. And here we are. David and here we are again. All of the festivals. Debbie and now it is july. And for a book or any book to come out. You are shepherding a lot of them. Any book to come out without bookstores thing to support it. When a particularly trusting atmosphere right now to be able to buy and share books to get them out there. Get the word out. And to be able to tell her stories. Does that answer the question. David it does. Think what is interesting is looking at sort of what is selling. What if people want to read. What bookstores are promoting. What is fascinating to me is there is this question of relevance. Who wants to read books that are relevant. Which i love because i think it shows that people are reading to try to figure things out. A lot of times we read for escapism but now people are largely ready for engagement. And i think your book is one where people are engaging. Debbie is good here. David of sort of witness some people talk to you before the book came out about having read it. So lets talk a little bit about the response. Because i feel that there are two things here. Youre getting some various tense responses from people with very personal connections to penn state but also youve gotten some intense responses from people who have really had no idea about this. And can you talk about some of those things that people have shared with you. Debbie limit backup just a bit to say that ive always known about it because when i was 16, just three days before my 17th birthday. The National Guard open fired. Unindent Charleston South Carolina and my dad was stationed at the air force base there and not see him for two years because he was in and out but he was flying supplies to vietnam and bodies home. Bodies and bodies and bodies. In the fortress were growing from 68 70. And then the day, may 4th, 1970. The National Guard they opened fired. It was all we can talk about. We were almost the age of the kids who were killed. They were teenagers. To 19 yearolds to 20 yearolds. Missus scary. Our friends were on the cusp. And the entire country responded to this has one. Weve done that at the beginning of the pandemic and we seen this happening after the murder of george floyd. The whole country did that and was just amazing. Fifty years have gone five. In same sort of background for younger people. And just like with the 60s, i watched young people especially to know that they are in the cusp of change in choice. And heres the American History. Heres the myriad of threads to fall into an. Its not just about People Places and dates. Spell all the stuff that happened makes a mosaic of what happened during that time. We are living through this amazing time right now. Its a real. But it is amazing. So i come across people have never heard about what happened there and i think really. This is nonfiction. This is fiction. Did you make the separated its actually really happened. Its almost shocking because it was just a part of my life. All my life. So i have never forgotten it tonight always wanted to write about it. And i always pushed it away because it was horrific. And when i wrote anthem, the last book of the 60s trilogy. He kept running into this i created this and i kept putting Little Things over there. And saving stuff. And then eventually we had a conversation and i said will, i guess theres just no way that i cant write about this. Because i talk about it. Kids had never heard of this. Kent state. And even adults. In a gone away. Its so fundamental to who we are as a democracy. It would happen there is so fundamental to our freedom. And so important to remember. David solis talk about again, ththe next conversation is how write this book. It was one of the best editorial conversations i have had is another. We genuinely started the conversation having no idea with the answer it was going to be. And then we basically came to a really good answer. So can you talk about that. What you were debating and how you were telling the story in sort of what led you to tell story this way. Debbie this is the fun part. Writing was excruciating with the fun part is like dreaming. Dream about it, you imagine it, every author who writes has that mom or your like i cannot do this it is too hard. But i had a vast of a mountain of material mountains of materials. And then i would say okay this is it, next. And actually the natural progression in answer from the kent state. Anthem is big. Its massive. The scrapbooks from everyone. I had all of that material. There is so much of it. Photographs and records and papers. Newspaper articles. An opinion pieces. It just seemed like there was so much. Theres a place to go with kent state university. Soon i talked to mention all of this. I had no idea to get into the storyline prayed and 60s trilogy. In it by itself. It is part of this because theres this end of this anthem of the day it cant state, of may 4th, 1970. And i did that purposely because i was dreaming already of writing about it. So when we talked. You may remember it differently. But one of the things that i remember is both of us talking about honey tell a story that in so any different opinions. Because when i did find in the mountain of information was that the child that some people said you shouldve killed more of them which is horrific. National guard said we didnt want to be there. And there were outside agitators. And the students were saying guard of the campus is not was the most important thing. In the administration could not agree on anything. So where would you land. How do you tell the story. And then we both read recently in both of us have loved this book. In the book, theres all of these voices. There these people who are arguing and talking and agreeing. Everybody just having this Big Conversation throughout the whole book for you and theyre all sort you an American History at the same time. Generational history. He learned so much. And these are all coming to conversation. And we both stopped for a minute. It was like and you are the one i think it came up with the idea of collective memory. And you said, in the event in history as a collection of stories. A collection all the people who were there. All the people who experienced it and went through whatever it was. The ring so true to me in this when i think it began to jail. So to remember. David no yes. So you can boil some things down to that phrase collective memory. The minute we had that. This is where its going to go. I still didnt know whether yuko going to use of firstperson sort of the chorus idea or whether its going to be distinctive voices whether you are going to give the names. So there were a lot of coefficients i did not understand. Debbie of me either. [laughter]. David exactly. But what i did know is that it was going to be sort of the camera from above watching. But you ended up doing is the camera shifting from one person to the next. And you do get the total from the sum of the parts. Debbie and another to make about that conversation was that everybody had a name. Every character was named. If they also make sure in the book, you read a book out loud to me. It was at the book festival. And i thought oh my god, this great chorus. That was it. Soon we come as a combination of those sorts of things. Because no one is named, no characters named. But you know who they are. And you know who they are by the placement of the page. Decided that side for you know because of the font for it is different for each of the state speakers. And because of the size. I did choose different spaces for every voice. It should be able to say, that is who this is. This is a student or a National Guard poster or this is i cant take credit for this is another student. This is one of the students. Should be be able to know they are. I dont think you should be confused about that i just trusted the readers to come with me. If you look at it, is a conversation. It side to side to side to side. Everybody talking about this and back and forth in that conversational way. And we utilize ar. Indigo those analogies. And as the young people to get involved. Insert your name here. So ill just get together. David in that initial conversation. I would love to talk a little bit about the choice telling from the point of view who died or hurts. It is off the table. Can you that decision. Debbie up i tried, it was obvious wherefore ivan got anything out. I cannot talk in the voice. So any of them are still living. There were people, who call themselves victims. And they are. Baby have not been shot but they were affected. Theres so there. One of the wounded has died. And the others are still there. Those who died. Thats sacred and is not for me to put my voice into their story. I was not there. What i can do is shake all of that research but it did which was going through archives and photographs and mountains of letters and articles and informational about may 4th. And distilling it. And i can have a conversation from those conversations that are red. All those days that i sat there and i photographed everything. And i went to the campus and i scanned when they fail. In nearly every year, there is no observant on may 4th grade individual on the night of may 3rd. None may 4th is a remembrance. Its very powerful rated they held onto the very last minute before, but i think the virtual celebration was really great. We all participated. It sort of form the storytelling david she did go into it with obviously, you knew what had happened at. Im curious. Surprised you the most when youre doing your research. Was hard part reset either was a factor something you had not known or just something that really do not if you is hard as when it was in the abstract. But when it was in front of you, you really thought the half, theres much more. Speedo couple things. First i didnt understand that the conflict was four days. Because when i heard abou about, is a 16 yearold kid, so shocking at that moment. And when you helping young kids telling about their stories about the context. I didnt really understand what it was about. So i had really find out. In telling the American Public what happened into the street on may 1st. And then on may 2nd what happened and so forth. So the first of all, that was a surprise. But there to pieces of information in a research and just laid me and one was a letter to the editor. These kids have destroyed our town. Shouldve killed more of them. Afford me. I remember standing up from that archive room in the library and was at the other end of the room rated and she said are you okay. And i said no. And then to understand the National Guard. Love them or 19. There were students they did not want to be there they were scared. If they do not understand. And i didnt understand an organization by bus. There are told to stay away from the campus on may 4th. You see the soldier standing there with guns. The white kids should be there. So those things were just talking to me. I didnt understand it. So writing always helps me to understand a story ready to understand myself and the frame of the story read and understand us that way. Gives me more of an understanding so that i can go on. Changes things. And certainly this one did. David i will ask at this point, were hitting the 730 mark so i will encourage and will not ask all the question tonight. You have questions please put them in the q a. With them in there and i will ask questions. The 500th either us. We are happy to answer. Its funny because i dont know if ive asked you this. Which is the voices was the hardest to write. Debbie thats an interesting question. I think they were all hard. They all came together. It is mostly separating them out. It was like stop, stop, stop. So i can write this down. I know went very quickly when it finally came. That was so any years ahead of working on it before something open up. In this kind of my process two. And i trust for the next time and then the next time and then the next time. Separating out the voices and giving the students three voices. Two white students and one black students. In the arguments. On the counties are. Easy because they had written so much. So any letters to the editor. So any articles have been written about it. And it was hard because unless you, of course you go forward because you dont want to be seen at times us was the one who did this. But there are a couple of an anonymous oral with the soldiers gave. One of them just had absolutely broke my heart. He was a student cant state. He would not give his name. I think sandy knows who it is. But i dont need to know. It was amazing. It made it very hard to write. And also some black united students. They didnt have as much or what i had to do was the long arc of the overreach. It for all of us but particularly black americans rated and Going Forward it in looking at what is happening today. That was very hard to do. I wanted very much to draw that line so that kept state to be read by anyone. I wanted the voice to be able to have that overview. So it was hard right that angry voice. It. David and to come along right. One of the questions again. And i think you touch on this. Did you come up with the voices separately. Do you sort of tinker around with them individually or did you basically establish them in relationship to one another. It. Debbie one of the things that i like to do most in writing fiction this characterization. And dialogue is your power tool. Because it does three wonderful things for you. It characterizes, information and read your story or moves it forward. So those three things, im always trying to make sure it happens with my characters. With this particular conversation because i had may 1st and may 2nd and may 4th, had the states. New would basically happen on the states. And i would have to go back and revise. In fact it. So i had a massive stock to work with and youre working with it as well. I get a look at it and shape it from there. The conversation that allowed them to have which i practiced at doing conversations now. I love doing the put table conversations. Second dinner table. He gives you so much characterization and memorization. David another question which i never wouldve asked you like if the book had just come out a week ago. Because that would not have been fair. But its been out enough and i think this very question, which is about the choice we get to may 4th and all of this falls away. And you decided to shift the narrative from the columns and all the different fonts to a different way. Could you talk a little bit about the decision to sort of make that shift. Debbie yes. Theres still a lot unknown about may 4th. Who started the rotc buildings. Who did what first. Who agitated who. I wanted that to be part of the narrative. So youll actually notice the whole helicopter thing. So any people thought it was on saturday night. On sunday night. When i researched it. Sunday night. So when we got where they only for the audio, you do not see that in the audio. The audiobook is stunning. We should get to that. When we will get to that. Debbie but a may 4th, the backandforth drops away. And you just have lots and lots right in the middle of the book. Its because the pace picks up. And i made that choice jesus voices off the page. Is there now going to be, i want you living in it. What you as the reader to be in it. I want you to be there in may for that i want you to be looking at dispersing saying this not for something that. The crowd shouting and making all kinds of accusations. In the National Guard is free to people yelling and screaming. Their sirens. People are trying to help and people are, while the chaos. I wanted to have you see the chaos. If you look at the backandforth. If you have the conversations going back and forth are angry with each other most of the time. However, when you get to may 4th. Its just everywhere. I think you night, we struggled over that section more than any other. Just trying to make sure that we had a different type of face that it was known that these were not the same people from this area. David [laughter]. Debbie just a fantastic response to the questions. It looks totally different and yes. David a number of other questions are about doing the staged readings and have you thought about performing at grade. Debbie what i wrote it. That was on my mind. But as i finished it and i looked at it i understood thats what we had. We have something that can be read as a solo book. Her classroom book. Or all community read. But it also wants itself to theater. Into a classroom where you have, different six voices that are in that the students could read that may 1st section. Or could be a play. He could be on stage. I did not write it with that in mind. That was not my intent. I just wanted away to hear those voices in have you understand the history is so much more than what he said and she said. Nobody ever agrees. Look at what is happening now. Nobody ever agrees on what is happening in history. We need to get the audiobook. One of the voices there. They tell me that shes the greatest person you want to hear from. Here she is sounding like. [laughter]. David in the experience again, were thinking about the audio and how it would be this video play. But the people, the last audio were extraordinarily committed to making it real. And again luckily for us, before the pandemic cant. So could be a very intense experience. So can you talk a little bit about how it was adapted rated. Debbie i would love to tell you more about it. They were there that day. Laura came home and since me pictures from that day. And so did paul. And then i get hear snippets of it. It lives of knocked i cried. They had a full cast of every character. And they were around that time. They were around one big table with those microphones in their laptops. They were reading through and acting out those parts. Paul had the vision. He said this is what we are going to do. They made it happen. Yoking together. They did this. Not understanding did it in one day. Its magnificent. Talk about putting you right there in that moment. That conversation and the argument in the coming to the realizations and being heard. Because thats one of the reasons we argue so much right now that we ordinarily dont listen to one another. But i thought about listening. His listening box. I just feel like we dont listen to each other. So these characters coming in, to be able to listen. Theyll have to agree and its really hard to hit someone when you know their story. So being able to get every person story out there felt vital. David again a number of people are asking about a stage and permissions again you hold the rights so your agent would be the right person to contact. In 70s is a session is being recorded. It is. And if you are a member of another society can i forget what she said it was called. The red ribbon club. Whatever it may be. One of the things that you can do is be at all of these Virtual Events. Cicely for me to again remind you that even though we are not physically the bookstore, we are to bookstore event pray to simply support from rich. They do have the audio as well as the book. And even if you do have the book and read the book. I strongly encourage you to get the audio. It is a different experience. Again vice versa. If youve only have listen to the audio. Debbie did on the page will astonish you as well. Debbie they are different total experiences. Each complements the other. It is hard to describe how does that to me. We need both. Thank you christine and all of you doing your work with this audiobook. Its amazing. I am honored. Sue and chad asked. Sorry had to leave he says. Why is david getting so close. [laughter]. And others paraphrasing just saying the question having studied this in the public response to it. You see differences in the responses to the current demonstrations. As technology changed. Debbie oh boy. It is really to put a book out in this world and not be political especially at this time we are living in. Yes and you did too of course we see that same thing. Right or wrong but being able to say that i dont care about you. I only care about me. I want to do what i want. Im more important than anybody else. Thats not good either. I also dont like the phrase that were all in this together. Because were all in this in such different ways and circumstances. So is not fair to say were all in this together. But we are all one country. It is really nice to think that we are able to put each other, what is the common good that the government for the people by the people and that the people should have a safe. The people should be able to listen to one another. And i based on what is good. The same thing in comparison. Its a sad commentary. Its important not to say that if you voted for Richard Nixon or reagan or if youre a republican youre wrong. Thats not right. Im not trying to say that with kent state at all and not going to say that now what is happening now. Im just trying to say that this is something i work on because i need to understand how to say it in ways that are true to who i am and that also are clear. Theres so much emotion that shuffles around being clear and being able to articulate what youre really thinking and using some facts and thinking critically, and basically writing this book for young people and every book i write for them is because i want them to think critically, i want them to register to vote and have why they believe in something. Not just because someone told you to believe that way but but a you have thought out it and investigated it and youre curious and asked questions and want to know, and you fall on this side of the finance or that side and your fence could goo like this. Mine does. So, its important just to remember that as americans, in a way as americans we are all in this together in the same country but we all have a different experience to bring to the table. I will say that i have time for a couple more questions if anybody else has questions, please put them in the q a. Still some i have not get ton but we could use another one oar two. So, one question was about what is the youngest audience you have presented this book to . Then i will add to that, just the question of, this is the first explicitly ya book you have rent and did it feel different to know that you werent writing for the to have to be concern but what a tenyearold or 11yearold might be able to process but instead to put it on the level of a 14 or 15yearold. This is where i really depend on you because you do write ya. And i knew that each book of the 60s trilogy counton are chapters 11, and sunny is 12, and revolution and anthem is 14, and her cousin, who is driving the bus, is 17. So, each of those books deals with progressively more older material. So,outdown, fourth grade and fifth grate. But i will give them anthem and that material is just a little bit older for them. When i get to kent state, just a whole new ball game and back to the conversational way that the book was written when we came to in the national fing guard, its just it was there just there. I put it there. Its two f bombs in there, expletives and whatever is this [loss of audio] im reading so much picture backs, and sue suring me this is assuring me this is okay. For part of me i want them out of there because i wanted it available for Young Readers and then i looked how each of the students died and how visceral this and is this is not a middle grade book. Im comfortable with where we ended up but the entry into ya was very exciting and also fraught with how do i do this . But in the end just write your story. Just write your story and trust your editor and Work Together and it will be fine it and did. I do. Is it eight starred reviews the back got. I didnt know it was that many and everybody who i know in the book says this. When did they have more than five . Thats okay. Star away. Speaking of working together, debra, you and i are both very familiar with, asks the, of course, obvious question, of what is next . Debra, i cant stand that. Shes baiting me. You and i both know what is next so i will tell that im just started talking about this and its been a year since i submitted the proposal. This is prescient. Way before all this stuff has been happening. I wrote a proposal to write a book did look like to write a book beaut the lost cause of the confederacy and the rise of White Supremacy and everyone said, what is the lost cause . Arch knows what it is today everyone knows what is today because of what wore going tough right now, politically and socially and culturally in the country. The lost cause of the confederacy that says our negroes were happy and the war was a war for aggression, states southern independence and over states rights, wasnt over slavery, and on and on it goes. Textbooks were changed to reflect the lost cause. Our men were noble and fought their in the right side and the right thing. And i believe it put us where we are today, this lost cause of the confederacy, and i think the working title for the book is charlottesville, so i to know what will happen with it. Just have a mass like with kent state, masses of material for this and it changes so much. I just trying to keep up with it, thinking, wow, i need that. I need that. Thats what i am working on. Thank you, debra. As just as i thought about kent state i have thought about this new book, too. A companion to kent state. I decided its going to be a companion. I mentioned that in our proposal. So, i think it will be an interesting audio book as well. I dont know if it will be exactly that formal format. It will be a kind of a conversation. Well see. A lot of material. Trying to pull it together. Well talk. Well talk. We need to talk. Well, we are closing in on our closing moments. I will ask my customary closing question, and again, with the encouragement that, hey, we have already plug just in case you missed it, we rowley love really love if you have innovate read it, ridge books i right here to order it from and i end by asking for some book recommendations. Anything youve read lately that you loved or an old favorite you have revisit or been thinking pout . What would you recommend our audience go out and read . Im getting ready to listen to the third of the paul books, the mirror and the light, and i have the audio book, and im anxious to listen to that, and im going back to old audio book favorites. I listened to walk in the park and listen to not under the under magnolia, about growing up in the south and 40s and 50s, and deliverrans another one i am in love with. The trees, the fields, and all of those have been important to me lately anything by eudora wealthy. Ill be shopping right after this. Well, again, it is so wonderful to see you. You, too. Wonderful to get to talk but kent state. I really, again, want to thank the book store for setting this up. We are i believe their first ya virtual event. And we certainly, as you have heard, will not be their last which is really exciting and thank you all for coming and for just being part of this conversation. I hope you again get to read or listen to the back really soon. It will change the way that you see this world. Thank you to all my friends for showing up and being here and to all of you who im just meeting for the first time, and david, thank you for giving the time for dying the and especially to quail ridge. One of the most fun things did when i came there was every single book was to have you handsell me so ive done that during the pandemic. Its time again. Thank you all so much. You can talk to jon meachum and see discussions with melinda gates, heather cox richmond shawne and many others. But before that at 6 00 p. M. Eastern, its our Author Interview program, after words, this evening former fbi Deputy Assistant director of counterintelligence, peter strzok, discusses his career and he work he did on the russia investigation. Find more Schedule Information at