About the far right, white supremacist, from the streets to the white house, we will spread out globally we will be looking at it historically, well probably deal with terms like fascism and populism and nationalism. Before we do that, i want to spend just a moment talking about what we are going to do with the technology. Number one, we are asking all the videos stay off. So we dont get video bombed and that we use all of our bandwidth for the conversation as opposed to video. Number two, to ask questions rather than doing it orally, what we are going to ask you to do is to type your questions into the chat box, to do that if youre familiar with resume if you run your cursor across the screen you will see at the bottom of a box that says chat, click on chat and you will see off to the right hand side of your screen a line at the bottom where you can type it in your questions and comments. As we go through this discussion with Larry Rosenthal if youd be good enough to type in your questions as they happen, they come directly to me, they will not be shared with the rest of the group because we suspect there may be some trolls here who might want to bomb us with hatred and rage. We had just assumed not have all you sure that it will come to me and thats fine, i dont mind being there psychiatrist for the afternoon. If you would simply put your check questions and comments as they arrive just put them in there and we will talk with larry for about 50 or 55 minutes, that we will then take a five minute come back and take more questions, we will leave as much time as possible for that so that its interactive as possible with you. Thats how we are going to do it today, let me know do the formal introduction of doctor lawrence rosenthal, the chair and lead researcher of the Berkeley Center for rightwing studies. Which he founded in 2009. Is taught at uc berkeley in the sociology and Italian Studies Department and was a abhe set up the right in the United States and italy, hes currently working on a study of the contemporary american right in comparison of moments of the right in 20th century europe. Hes written several books, hes appeared in many a periodical and hes the author of a forthcoming book this fall from new press, listen to the title because its very interesting and they give us direction for where we are going the title of his new book empire of resentment populisms characters. Who is it we are finding in not only the current rightwingers in the current George Floyd Protests also one of the extraordinary facts of this extraordinary moment is that we have had two movements with people on the streets in large numbers consecutively one after the other, the first was the antilockdown demonstrations the people who were fed up with being told to stay indoors and so forth. Than that followed without any interruption by the George Floyd Protests. So about the antilockdown protest was that most of the people there were right when i think of as rightwing populist, those who dont like to use the term populist to deal with rightwingers but if we go down that road we will never find our way back. Nine financial crisis has had. And there was economic insecurity. The same thing is true with the coronavirus. The sense of economic insecurity is very deeply felt. The way the argue about those things, is in terms of their notion of freedom that their rights were being violated. Lawrence rosenthal back in the tea party, scholars is a call that point of view populist, constitutionalism. And what it meant was these right wing populist argued what the constitution meant. And how law should be understood. It should not be simply in the hands of the elites like the lawyers and judges. That individuals can make their own determinations about those questions. What happened in the anti clock down demonstrations was essential that populist ritualism as it was called by scholars, sort of mutated into populist epidemiology. Which was the assertion that these fancy doctors can tell us what to do. And they dont know better than we do. In a couple of things about tea party in 2009 is that to some extent carried over. One was at the beginning of the tea party, there were attempts by White Nationalists an extreme gun enthusiast. To kind of take over the tea party to make the tea party and here to their particular points of view in their particular issue. Into the two parties credit, the kind of resisted that. Things begin difference with the anti lockdown. So where youve got guys and we will get to this for you to call themselves the big boys movies. And through. These rallies. So we have key party populist. The next category is funny because this is the is not talk about all that much more. Im sure you remember this. The all right is ideologically driven. In their ideology is life nationalism. Very selfconscious and they are subconsciously in the tradition of a fascist in the ku klux klan in the 1,900,000 traditions. It was after what was called the battle of berkeley in 2017, that was in april. That the head of authorized, Richard Spencer. He declared after that streetfighting cat things had changed the ultrasound. It is no longer just going to control people online. Another going to fight in the streets. In the wake of you to this was that is he put it, miramar which means that he was making the analogy to clean nasi germany. With the republic. In the way he characterized it was that you would have as he called fragmentation of american politics is going to move to extreme polarization because you have the left and the right. Fighting it out on the streets and as he says for space and for ideological. And in this sense, as was recently said, the antivenom is a gift to this point of view. And it is, the position of the all right and this is that increasingly people are going have to choose and they will choose the right over the left. And what isnt important to about this is the extent to which it has been echoed in effect on the Trump Administration. The Trump Administration had given great credence to the idea that the violence was something owed to ntfs first called it a couple of years ago, left. And then it was equivalent. Now it is they are the ones. In this plays very much into the strategy of Richard Spencer. In the third category of people of the booboo people. Is there word derived from the 1980, i dont know great deal about it but, below, and is about more about the time is come for civil war in america. These people are not as distinct let us say from the albright and that White Nationalism is in their explicit ideology. It is not guns. These are a sensually gun rights activist who have been extreme for any years. And what they have gone with this moment. That is sometimes called acceleration is him. Which is the idea the time is come. The moment is right for this boogaloo as it is now called. The coming of the american civil war. The interesting thing the man 40 thing to understand is a call themselves via ois. Not only are they gun rights extremists. Not only are they talking about civil war but very fundamental is been anti police. So the presence of police is a provocation to them. As these demonstrations have gone on. And let me draw the analogy here with the way in which as with the right point of view, this kind of entails with a little bit of what we are getting from the Trump Administration. And at one point, have a here from trump. He says i can tell that i have the support of the police. The support of the military, the support of the bikers for trump. He has constituted authority with gangs. So this gives legitimacy to the boogaloo. In a way that was not available before. Hes goes on to say that he is a tough people but they dont play attempt unlike the antivenom as he was saying previously. They go to a certain point and it would be very bad. So with that i would say so much for the smithsonian. Thank you for opening it that way larry. Youve opened the pandoras box. We go down and in. The first thing was rescuers can you attach numbers to this for you to be french. Nb, in the george floyd demonstrations trying to create violence. Lawrence rosenthal yes. There are number of false incidents that have been documented. Their numbers. It is always very hard to talk about the number they are a relatively friendly phenomenon. If they have been mobilized and considerable numbers beautiful full. In this. I do not know anyone is in a position to attach as any peop people. They also belong to a tradition. Not only guns enthusiast, and extremist but also this very idea of the civil war has a long history of almost 40 years. There has been the kind of right wing militia tennessee of the day would be an event that somebody would do something and it would spark law. It would stop a war. It often go as a place for. So for example, in. Bill sokol let me stop you right there. Raising the issue on race and i want to focus on that. In view of the george floyd demonstration and what is been happening for the last three weeks, i noticed that you assess that label kind of White Nationalists. They withdrew it when you came to the boogaloo voice. And going to pin you down. How central is White Supremacy and deepseated racism to the far right here in america. Lawrence rosenthal it is fundamental. There is a history of its. And it not go away. The whole life is devoted to it. If the albright believes that american white americans are being displaced by othe others. Those others tend to be dark skinned. And when they are particularly nasty juice. And so, there is that side of things which is strongly racist. In mind, it is blurry to between that and what is going on with the acceleration us but they are particularly emphasizing than rights. And in some of them, they are sympathetic to the george floyd story because it was at the hands of the police. It is not entirely clear cut but in answer to your larger question of replace of race if this, is fundamental. Bill sokol now wanted to try say as we talk about this friend movement. Obviously very different somethings happened with the arrival trump and the president and the question is is he one of them. Do we now have the far right and control the white house if you will. Or is he simply using them i suppose the question. Lawrence rosenthal fell from the point of view on the off right and presumably i dont know this for a fact. But it is likely to the point of view acceleration us. His vehicle to them. They understand trump has certainly from the point of view of the alt right but not one of them someone who had allowed the politics to come into the mainstream. Lawrence rosenthalbill sokol be inviting them and he wants to use them. Which allows me to ask you for half century or so, i avoided using the word fascism. I would say to my i would say come on, it is not fascism, and democrats but it was. Horrible it was. But now it seems to be, it may be time to start using that word and when asked he was a historian if the italian fascism and as well as german fascism. Can we start to use that term when we talk about trump and the far right here in the u. S. Lawrence rosenthal then they give you an introduction to that answer which is that i agree with you that word fascism was used loosely. Both on the left and the right. It was on either side the term of choice or dissing people. Oh yeah hes just a fascist. It was in everything. And that has changed. And as soon as donald trump came down his escalator, he had the most serious discussion of fascism in this country in my lifetime. Not just on the left. It was on right. People like robert kagan who was with the neoconservatism. Early on in the Trump Campaign which was this is a americans were to fascism. And you had albright book which is fascism rated so there was a serious discussion of fascism. This was during Trump Campaign. But it wasnt fascism. It wasnt because fascism is movement. Required a private militia. Which trump, with all is talking about not the crap out of that person is valleys. A work is in the car ready for the gift of that person. All of his omen to violence, did not bring about an organized that his life militia. And without that, it was not fascism. What you need in addition to that to be concern to be fascist. What is evaporated things. Is over, to redlines. One is militia. And we can come back to that because w. It. Bill sokol we shall. Lawrence rosenthal and the other is what comes about in the german case in the nasi case, it was called the enabling law. And with the enabling law did was in allowed them to move 5degree. An essential wai way neutralized his entirety the German Parliament and is coming into power in a legitimate way. But it neutralized it. In italy as well there was the enabling act. In the enabling act in germany, it came via whereas a result of burning. It was likely it false flag then by the themselves. So you have this movement where you have an emergency followed by essential wai way depriving the legislature of any power. Bill sokol soleri. Lawrence rosenthal that is the second line in the sand. The second fascist one to cross. Sue an okay cyclist would argue the trump is not yet have the emergence to declare himself the allpowerful dictator. But with respect, this go this way for money rita wouldve agreed with you relatively recently. He doesnt but now, he has to it seems to me, not exactly private but isis now 20 30000. Literally brown shirts who report directly to the executive branch. The course have no authority over them. The executive branch says, in the course of the covid19 demonstrations and in the george floyd demonstrations, we are sending ice, not to do with the border but to deal with unrest in los angeles and the south. Am i going to use ice. As our troops and then the second element that i wanted through and for you to discuss. Lets do this separately. Leslie the police inside. What about the fact that he now has around church melissa hundred militia called ice. It would seem like one step away. When emergency to get him authoritarian control. Do we then follow fascism. Lawrence rosenthal i would say that more disturbing than even the place of ice or have been other ones called out. The bureau of arms. Bill sokol also alcohol and tobacco norms. Lawrence rosenthal what is more disturbing of the guys up in the street with no badges. With no affiliation. That is closer to the dedicated militia and anything we have ever seen. There are those who refer to them as the little green men which comes from the description of russian soldiers in Eastern Ukraine while there place there is being tied. So that is very compelling. That is very close to the line of a private militia or a dedicated militia. When hitler came to power, he was part of this party the way the organs of the fascist party natalie became organs of the Italian Government under mussolini. There is something quite worrisome with respect to the specter if youve wealth of fascism about the development from recent developments. Bill sokol into the rabbit hole. I want now, we talk about the alt right in the Trump Administration and the relationship there. This is not to talk about police reform. With us to about policing. Imagine will address of the people. I do want to ask you as the george floyd demonstrations continue, there been some 10000 unrest across the country. There been a hundred and 30 journalists arrested. Rubber bullets being used. People being rather that when their people died peacefully protested so they can be arrested. How you define the place of Police Forces with respect to far right White Supremacy, fascism. What we do with the fact that the police asked intimate bad apples in the barrel. There seems to be some kind of real unified action with trump of course meeting with a has a Police Forces saying im with you 100 percent. It is interesting because in the longstanding fantasy on the militia right about the civil war, there would be the spark and then the patriots would rise up. And when the resident, they would be joined by the police. And by the military. And to some extent, the distinction that we are seeing the difference hosting between the military and the police, is a statement by the general methods which really took the top down a peg. Very seriously about what he was doing with respect to the constitution. So in terms of the army have the potential for joining in the civil war for private militia, there is a kind of obstacle and they had of the armed forces. And it is based on the proper understanding of constitutional roles. It is interesting though that i think the trump. It is hard to know what is selfconscious yes. Because is largely uneducated. And not a person who understands political strategy and anything other than what appears to be, what happens tomorrow kind of thing did summa like what i see on tv tonight. Lawrence rosenthal when you take Something Like, you remember the case of gallagher. He was tried by the military court for homicides in iraq. And trump intervened during his courtmartial and afterwards to have an he had the secretary of defense do this. Gallagher sentenced diminished. Trump is actually going beyond. He has making connections that goes around, does not in. Because around the rest of the military which is not going to support him. And perhaps therefore is developing among the right lingers in the service in one of course remembrance, Timothy Mcveigh who was with isaac that. And with the police, it is not seem to be this constitutional work at the top. That would resist militarization of the police at all. But the place of the police as enforcing trump ideals and trumps policies. So that is the kind of end of the longstanding fantasy of what is going to happen. Bill sokol larry, we talked about the White Supremacy, we go to the trump lighthouse move now talked about police and the military. To go in another direction now. Funny thing is the role of affection for the intertwining for lack of the religious right. Even fellow. Churches have always supported from. I think historically correct me if im wrong, nina german fascism nor italians dependent on Close Relationships with the church yet. Seems to me you that we have the relationship between trump and write. And church. Our portion of the church. Lawrence rosenthal i think you are right. Most laney comes to power in a moment when the Catholic Church and by then, say 1920. Fifty years had refused to recognize the image which took away the churches lands. During the unification of italy. But he sees me. He did successfully come to terms with the church. Which none of the liberal parliamentary governments before him were able to. He signed in 1929, and the church then recognized the fascist regime and they were given significant control over education. So there was a connection but in a way that was more using as we say, the organized church as a political ally. What we are getting today among the nationalist leaders is a great deal more of kind of where religious and populism merge. As a key bit of support. You get that for example where the nationalist party in power, independency on the church in the alliance with them. And his constituency of believers is what keeps him in power. Lincoln look to india as explicitly government of hindu nationalism. Putin and his relationship to the Russian Orthodox church is something similar. Trump singly as a support of the u. S. Evangelicals. The people who arrived on the National Scene under the title of the moral majority. It is a force this extraordinary irony that is there by choice. And they are the most side of his face. Bill sokol how you explain it. Lawrence rosenthal i dont think that th religious right ia factor in the violence for the darkest parts of the demonstration conveyancing either antilock down or floyd. Heres why it seems this has happened. Theres two elements of it. One is trump was very clearly saying during his campaign and is come through sense that he was going to attend to the most compelling issues. The most compelling read thereto most compelling issues. What is gay marriage, and the second, and most important is antiabortion trump is campaign which is a list of people he would put on the supreme court. And they were all selected by the federal society and plainly name bring down the c had the judges. So you have this political side of things and then have a score that with this plainly morally wanting human being. That is been of particular interest. In a way that it is happened is a read trump into the bible. Either the two main ones are king david and king cyrus. King david was as they say, a motor and an alto terror but god said, hes going to be making. And as it was sad, were not achieved. For if that seems to be taken afraid king cyrus which is even more popular in the evangelical side. He was the king who let the jews out of the babylonian captivity as he was the king of the persians. And parents about the jews being freed. And from that point of view, what trump represents is gods deliverance of somebody who is not of us. The new can deliver us. Bill sokol five. Lawrence rosenthal so it is where it seems as though almost have it was in a bit of a vulnerable or necessary in order to maintain or come to terms with x to ordinary bit of distance. That the bible turned out to be the answer. Bill sokol okay. That may now having more or less tried to cover the territory. Range of who is part of the far right were connected to the far right in these times. You have studied italian fascism in particular as well as german fascism that Great Lengths in depth. How close that you see what is going on here in america now, do you think we are to the german or italian experience or how far from it are we. Are we edging closer and closer are we still a long ways away. Lawrence rosenthal okay. A couple of things. One, the republicans put together around 1919 or 1920. An elected in 1933 goodbye to our republic. Fourteen years of parliamentary democracy. In italy, and a parliamentary regime with a cane since the italian unification. And it was life the problems. So the difference between that and the usa is considered durable for you in the institutional level. The usa with all of the errors, but the main dishonored the breach again and again and again. To the extent in which we are talking to people on the left. These are the things that you have been marching about. Three are adept lives. We know that is the case. But the institutions are much stronger than elsewhere. The much stronger than italy. Much much stronger than germany. There much stronger in liberal regimes especially in europe. At the moment. Liberalism is the kind of slower deterioration from democracy. It is retaining the and undermining all of the things the foundations of democracy both in Civil Society of people are not the state senate estate. Making the parliament such that you will always when the boat. And on and on for education and cultural things. In the museums and so forth. In the same way that the foundations of democracy have been eroded in places, lets take the leading place which is hungary. Under victor, it gives the name and liberalism to the world. In his arguments for it. This is what democracy will look like. This is the only way democratic countries are going to survive is with liberal nationalism. Bill sokol and i know what that means larry. Literally switch into that kind of sign. Let me stop you for a minute. That kind of language. Dont know what it means to say the only way that democracy survives is when you have a liberal regime weve had an enabling act that lets one man run the country. Lawrence rosenthal that is the redline. The enabling of that. We have not had that until the emergency. Bill sokol which he declared in his son right. Sorbonne has crossed that fascist line. He did that by declaring an emergency. An ace now wrote really by decree. For the past ten years or so, maybe as a little less than that. But for the past ten years, salami tactics. But he is finally about to and crossed that line. That fascist movement. And to the capacity to declare emergency, based on a declared lots of emergencies or another refugee crisis years ago. But there was no movement to the kind of de facto act. Sue and you imagine the kind of thinking is going on around trump i phrase the question that way is to know who the thinkers are. That was stephen the beginning. He seems to be sent off to europe. To the doghouse. Are there people around trump who can think this deeply and meaningfully about how we get from what we are now two wonderful wonderful fascism. Lawrence rosenthal there is an emerging point of view cold conservative nationalism. And they have had events. The major, basically what they argue is that the way in which people like you and me might regard american constitutionalism for the things like the declaration of independence. The values are the principles. Upon which american democracy since. I think it is in the words. We hold these truths to be selfevident. It is a propositional notion of american democracy closed. They argue otherwise. They argue it is not the words. But it was the people who wrote them. It was then they are defined by religion. But also other elements of culture. So that is an evolving. Lawrence rosenthal 127, referring. Lawrence rosenthal in california there is a Vermont Institute which is part of the intellectual center of that in the u. S. Among wellknown figures. Carlson was very well received but these conventions. And there is, forget what state there is a senator called, think joshua holly. He spoke at this convention and he is very well regarded. As someone sophisticated in this thinking. It is looking as a result almost as true comes to power and how do we explain this. What is trump is imparted suicide theyre backfilling. Sue and creating ideology for him. Lawrence rosenthal which reverses the way things that normally happen. Only an ideology in the someone has the avatar of that. It is almost like backfilling. What the hack is this targeted and that is a labor that is ongoing. Bill sokol and in the inner circle, what you place a bill barr or steve miller. You see these people as thinkers with ideology and philosophy. Burgess pragmatic day today. Lawrence rosenthal bar comes out of the Federalist Society. And part of the Federalist Society that argued it in the george w. Bush administration for what they call the unitary executive. Which basically meant that the executives relatively unbound. The checks and balances that conventional thinking has run the president. Not operative. Rumsfeld and cheney were very strong proponents of this point of view. And actually had a great deal of impact. Their theorists of it. Lots of lawyers who are developing theories surrounded and so forth. And then you have the vulgar view of it which is trump saying, article two of the constitution. I can do anything i want. C1 and give him the ideology and support. My time with you is running out. And i have two for the things i want to touch on before we open it up for questioning. The first one you have taken us all way down that rabbit hole. What is the way out. You have studied history. How do we get out of this. What is the way out in america. Running going to talk about some of these other people anymore. But right here in america. As i watch for in the me put it this way. As i want to demonstrations about george floyd develop. Ive quite frankly have felt grateful, people in the streets resisting in a way that we have since the 60s when i was in college. I feel like half of american, black america is leading the way. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people out in the street. Young people. Natalie get from the mess were in now to better america. Lawrence rosenthal remember the old song, love me, love me, love me, i am a liberal. I actually think of myself in those terms. The claimant obviously out of it is voting amount. The circumstances seem that there are the current crises which are financial and 100,000 people who have died. So you have these extraordinary crisis on the one hand in which although if you read rightwing press, trumps handling of these things is regarded as heroic. Which is very difficult. Youve got the window and you say they look at the window they say it is not credit is a very different understanding of it. The way i look at the election is you have the model of 2016 and you have the model of 2018. In both of those cases, avoid determined the direction of the election was what the political scientists called the name that calls negative partisanship. It means in 2016, so any people deeply dislike hillary clinton. That they went forth donald trump. In 2018, blue america who had been somewhat indifferent to hillary clinton, blue america had two years of donald trump. And it turned out in magic numbers. By the house of representatives. And that was also about negative partisan ship. Theres no reason to believe in my view, that is dynamic and is not been maintained agreement become more focused in the last two years which suggests that blue america is going to turn out in turn donald trump out of office. There are a lot of ifs around that. The ups are, the person who as a matter of course projects his own ideas onto others. Talks nonstop again about things and he plainly tried something in the ukraine and god knows what else. But one thing which is clear is that in 2016, what the Trump Campaign did above all and facebook, was absolutely fundamental to their victory. And what happened on facebook is the delivered fake news. Now that is a tricky phrase because trump picked it up. And now in a kind of logical soup that between real fake news and fake fake news. This will thank news. There were stories like that hope has out for donald trump. It was micro targeted and this is where things like the analytic in the lytic a baby was orchestrating all that. Successfully. Bill sokol and expect to do it again. Lawrence rosenthal only is he back to again be as a campaign management. Hes not the guy sitting in the tech office anymore. He is the guy. So the push all the chips out on what is going to go online. And what that means is a lot of stuff that we are not going to see is a lot of stuff not going to know. So yes on the basis of the place of negative partisanship. It does look promising that blue america should win. So we dont know what is going on. Even on facebook. We can go another hour. Sue and i want you to take two minutes one paragraph okay. Big because the title fascinates me. Empire resentment, populism and bracing of the nationalism. One paragraph first it will take a break. What is the book about. Lawrence rosenthal thank you. Any it is about how to adopt donald trump into the presidency. First when the republican nomination then the presidency brings about americas rightwing populist to and formed this immensely powerful Political Force called the tea party. And they had run into the ideology of extreme freemarket fundamentalism. So the point of view of people like the coke brothers. We can discuss that is but youre giving mayor paragraph. Bill sokol one paragraph. Lawrence rosenthal one paragraph. What trump did was he tempted populist to that ideology to the America First ideology. And secondarily, is part of an international guise which i call the nationalist international. And he also rose up from the 1930s on, the fringe of america politics. The people had no place in national posix. They could have a place in local politics. You can get david duke running percent in louisiana. But the french. The White Nationalist, the clue clocks clan friend. Was mobilized. They were stunned by it. But they were mobilized. They had never had, none of them in their lifetimes anything to do with president ial politics. Suddenly at the level and somebody was talking their language. So they are mobilized and then finally, and trump and one debate refers to maybe it was not the russians but maybe it was some 400pound kid on his mothers bed in the bedroom doing his thing. He also mobilized kind of the young men who are alienated an online and he was eventually nihilistic. Bill sokol okay one paragraph on the book. Empire resentment, toxic embrace. Below going to do now larry is take about a fiveminute break. Avoid a look of the questions in the chat box. People have time bring my understanding is the lines, you should be able to get in and out quickly then will come back and also to in the questions in the chat box. Anybody who wants to question, please do. Take a few minutes to enter questions and well go to those with larry. See you in about four minutes larry. Then jumping in early because man these are great questions. There are so any of them. Well take a break for dinner and then maybe have a Little Something at 11 and then go on until two. We start with this one. What if White Supremacy is not a unique fringed element but a core structural fact the u. S. Processed about george floyd are not uniquely about Police Brutality about this reality. Lawrence rosenthal is no doubt the debts structural reality. People use the original sin. Im happy to have the question because i would not like anything that i have said to suggest otherwise read White Supremacy, not White Nationalist so much. With basically is the distinction, when nationalism is as opposed to White Supremacy. Especially in its current incarnation is the idea that White Privilege has been taken away. Have a good quote from Richard Spencer that white possession is so real, so obvious. It just something that one cannot ignore. The reaction had to occur. Its only a question of when or how. Not a question of whether. So what this argument, it is felt. Im not it in any way shape or form. This is the fueling the the White Nationalist is what it this way. The boys had a seat at the table. And suddenly there are these others. His values they dont respect. And who they think dont respect their values. Bill sokol do you think this is Something Different than white supremacist thinking. Lawrence rosenthal yes. I supremacy is not, is the function of the age of mass integration. The perception of mass integration. Stenting is about a month 2016 election about latinos. Immigrants. Trump is going to build will. The regimes throughout europe. Comes from movements about migraines rated does not deny or say otherwise. Making a distinction between White Supremacy and White Nationalism. White nationalism, there is this notion, a theory. The replacement there he. It is actually from france. France on the right has been talking about these since the 1970s. And what it means is not only our real french pain displaced by people from africa and muslims and so forth but there are conspiracies at work to make that happen. So if you remember charlottesville, chant and charlottesville. You will not replace us. It is that which is at the heart of contemporary White Supremacy. Bill sokol anderson. Maybe a misunderstanding. I think your singable White Supremacy in my mind is been born of the experience of slavery in america. As the hatred in the feeling that i must be superior and i am superior. To the black americans. Unlike nationalism seems to me is addressed to people who are coming across the borders. The coming from the south or coming from the far east and a called yellow. Lawrence rosenthal it could be. It could be that this movement could be based around opposition to immigration which was the message of the Trump Campaign. What it also did was redefine the immigrants is sensually the, what is happened is that that has expanded into whiteness becomes kind of the most of the categories. It is the thing that allows the greatest number white people to identify with it and on the other hand, was black people and brown people and jewish people in the category. Bill sokol but we havent substantial Asian Community as well. Lawrence rosenthal and Asian Community was not clearly it is regarded. Bill sokol me go to another question for you something that you touched on. My non academic relatives are getting messages by facebook and other social media that insists nancy pelosi the Mainstream Media preventing those from knowing all of the marvelous things that donald trump is accomplishing for us. How can we know what messages are being targeted. We may not see or belong to. Lawrence rosenthal notes. The problem is we do not. Thats what i was referring to earlier. If on the surface on the analytical surface, the negative partisanship makes the perspective 2020 election look good for blue america, the problem is we dont know what these messages and what these doom stories, real fake news stories are conveying to this highly targeted facebook. Bill sokol we dont know. And that is what is the selection in, it is big question of the selection. Sue and we have not talked about this but im appreciating you type and done talking about role of the internet. If you like im not so sure this is a net benefit to have the internet. Marvelous because you and i can talk and a lot of people can join in the conversation. And seems to me if you took away twitter, he would not have trump. If you took away facebook, you wouldnt have this may have massive support for trump. Lawrence rosenthal there is no doubt. That would increase that. By how network forces on the right are. The militia right, the only doctors of all networking technology, back in the 1980s. And they have stuck with it and stuck with it. I would say that fox news was an artifact of the coming of cable tv. And things like right part are now in effect and the coming of the internet. Theres no doubt that the right and east dark corners of the right thrive on it. They not only thrive on it, domestically. The conduct to the internation international, among these groups is extraordinary. The nationalist international is very heavily networked. And its a final class or final negative is at this point, maybe a theological question. Bill sokol good enough. Something we did not touch on my think it is important. This person says is Mitch Mcconnell in congress rep. Of an additional function of the following life. One also using trump to further their agenda. Another parallels in fascist italy or germany. Lawrence rosenthal if you take what you can call the conservative establishment in italy and in germany, they both made a bet. And there that was okay these guys are going to get rid of our opposition of the socialists and the economist and theyre going to do a good job on it. And we will be able to control them. They thought they could ride the tiger. Instead they got eaten by the tiger. So there is a kind of parallel there. Is a real question about the republican parties. His massive essence to tropism. Such that met romney is now sending out for the occasional misstep. In their work steps along the way. In the first one was, so any of them moved. The poster boy in all of this is lindsay graham. Hes going to sign off on our bills. That is step one. And in step two is oh my lord, my constituency has turned trump in. If we are not going to be primary out of office and we have to predicate the no trump voting base populist budding base of the republican party. And then finally i call this sociology 101. The road theory. If you read road theory that if you take on a role offered enough, you become it. And i think to a large extent, people like lindsey graham. That is what has happened to them. They have become that. Bill sokol thought it read. Lawrence rosenthal which will cure their fever. I dont know the answer to that. Bill sokol we will move to another question. To what extent is there penetration of the military and or of the police. Lawrence rosenthal i think it is considerable. I think what we are sing in terms of the police kind of speaks for itself. We have had of the union in the minneapoliminneapolis lease fors been wanted by trump. Literally opposed to any kind of sanctioned against showman and his collaborators. So i think that is rep. That only of individuals within Police Forces put organized of the police force. If inside those Police Forces that it would probably be extremely difficult to counter an ideology. I would distinguish between the effective the professional kind of managing class of the police in the class of the military. And then the managing class of the offices. The medicines. However then and they have been consistent. There was a strong sense of them are going to be in his cabinet keep things on the straight and narrow. To integrate since we can. That is like trying to fill a glass of water with a firehose. You cant do it. But in so far as they represent the professional class of the military. Theyre not, they remain an obstacle. Bill sokol about it. Another question. What you make of the latest beef between trump and the pope. Any impact in the usa. Lawrence rosenthal that is a good question. Since the american catholics kind of emotional bond on each side of this. American catholics are not as flawed of princes as they were of john paul. The polish hope. Who is a cold warrior. And francis is kind of liberal. He has spoken and trying to change the church and running into a great deal of opposition. And so catholics do have a kind of, very strongly deploy the term loyalty. I do not mean dual loyalty but they are pulled into different directions. It will be interesting, the extent to which the american clergy becomes more francis friendly. Over the succeeding months. Bill sokol here is one let the boogaloo boys. What are they hope to establish with the civil war. What will government and society look like. Lawrence rosenthal is one of the important distinctions. Between that of the White Nationalist bring the White Nationalist have this idea of the death of state, white snow state. So there is a where you end up. If the thing about the acceleration, is a have kind of given up on an ideal. And what they are aiming for. It is the details of on its own terms. We will figure it out later. That is the essence of accelerations and. Which is really become a force in the world in the past few years. So they dont have one. Sue and ive got it. Another question. Something we have not exported all. I think it is important. He please discuss business interest against the far right. The anti lockdown process, similar Family Foundation study and type blm process. Some of these families be scared the far right and trump the more more. America, far right. Lawrence rosenthal if you take Something Like a coke for the remaining cook brother. Theyre not ideologically in step with trump. They will support him in things like the tax cuts. They are called by the alienation of foreign allies rated their appalled by what is done to trade agreements. Their appalled by immigration stuff. And the importance of immigrant labor in america. There is no simple correspondence between trump is him and big capital in this country. Bill sokol clary, think that person is saying two things that we want to separate. When youre talking about big capital corp. Of america. Business america. This person is also talking about Family Foundations. Lawrence rosenthal thats why i focus on the coax. To the extent to which this family was very very much a supporter of the republican orthodoxy over the past, the ticket and extreme view of it. They were supporters of it. And to a large extent, like the republican party. Those Family Foundations have become tropism. And whether they revert. Invoice been more radical than an republican orthodox. The same is true the coke brothers. In this radical point of view have been susceptible to turning in a champion direction. That has been the case as you can see with his family. Bill sokol sometimes larry, owner of Corporate Capital needs an active going healthy economy was the Family Foundation should have things that they want to do. They does not absence of regulation. Versus the corporations that actually need active governments to support them to find them. And to give them help. Lawrence rosenthal there is a parallel there. If you think about what donald trump represented as a businessman. A rep. Familia business. He did not have a board of directors. It was a closed shop. In which the kind of things that he apparently did both in terms of blowing off contractors and not paying them. This is a man who said 4500 bosses around him. Bill sokol a bankrupted one after another of the businesses. Lawrence rosenthal said that is a very different business formation and people who work in public corporations. So there is very different formation. There is a wonderful article full in anticipation of trumps presidency. This was in late 2155 a sociologist he remarks. In the basically, made this amazing parallel to tony soprano. And as time went on, this guy is a rock. Systemic guy read holland versus flynn i believe it was. No. That kind of thing. This very plot as it were against the ukrainians. We would like you to do us a favor. Bill sokol i have friends to just call him mafia. Lawrence rosenthal so that is i believe a, a different economic universe. With different norms and values. Different ways of operations read their dark. There closed. And the Koch Brothers are privately held as well. Bill sokol heres an interesting one. Going back to the french. I watch closely, the life probe trump demonstrations including the battle of berkeley. And Portland Party were a lot of the guys in portland in particular seemed like wannabes. Lshaped middleaged guys and armor were not likely to be very useful in battle. Coming of the militia types is really so they minutes, part of the game. Again posture and shocks and punch out the didnt really expect to be called upon the fight. Lawrence rosenthal that is a great question and i would say to the extent to which we have any evidence of that. It never happens. And there have been considerable obligations. And Timothy Mcveigh was such a provocation. And you can go on and on and on. So the fantasy that use that word, the patriots would rise up and there would be the coming of the several war which is a notion that is good with the most right since the 1970s and since the publication, the turner diaries. Which outline that. To an apocalyptic read to the extent to which we know it and have a network to that. It is not happened okay. Someone asked about the geography of the far right. Arthur certain states where they hang out. More concentrated less concentrated read. Lawrence rosenthal will famously, are certain states were there really concentrated. Idaho. When the talk about in a snow state. Thats the general area and of course theres Northern California which has had the state of jefferson. Which takes in parts of idaho and oregon rated this went on for a very long time. What is really interesting about the truck constituency in my view. Is that the most or the best information of who would be trump voter was not the presence of immigrants in their midst. But the absence so people tended in what i call this imaginary other that the imaginary other was far more threatening and far more effective politically and actually living among immigrants. So the trump constituency is interestingly very well or perhaps its best explanation in terms of geographics dispersal is notable for living in places and zip codes we dont find immigrants. Bill sokol okay. Heres a question theyre asking you for a crystal ball. It may be just beyond your abilities of a crystal ball today. One says, what if he loses the election and refuses to leave office. But if it is very close they refuses to leave office. And if he were to lose, might these groups do if you were to lose read questions about basically, what happens of the election either comes apart at the seams, does not go well was a real mess. Lawrence rosenthal okay. Again we have history which says that they do not rise up in the patriots dont really rise up. Its different now. One of the things that i think could make it different. This is always been there. In the trump kind of catalog of what he might do. His war. That would be an event which could lead to the kind of emergency situation that wouldve wants effect institutions and at the same time, actually motivate the militias to move. So that actually is for me, my biggest worry. And if you think about to use the example of the rise of fascism, before world war one, and have fascism. He did have nationalism. Which is not all of that different from the nationalism we have today. In fact it is kind of the forerunner of the nationalism we have today. But you get after the war, fascism. Get that because you have a body of people who have been to war and who have come from the countryside and this is their major exposure to the nation. In their learning curve is more. So that was very functional to the rise of fascism. Fascism is formed in march the 19th 19. The first meeting where they call themselves fascism. He has the power in italy. In november of 2010. Thats less than a u. S. President ial term. The biggest worry about going from what we are in the kind of liberalism which on the one hand trump is attempting to institute and on the other hand, which our institutions have resisted, the biggest threat to that seems to me, is going to work. Bill sokol larry, that might be the darkest but most appropriate moment to close with. We have half of the 5 00 oclock hour. It is been a fascination to talk to you. Learn a tremendous amount and i can tell by the number of people who are still here that people have counted as fascinating as i have. Someone thank you very much. Returning us and be willing to spend this time with us. Slicing and dicing with the far right is. Populisms toxic embrace of nationalism. In the fall. Right. Lawrence rosenthal at the end of the summer. September 8th. Bill sokol very good it will be there. Any last words of wisdom terror affair. Wallace and get both. Of hope. Lawrence rosenthal words of how far we still have elections in this country. I am a liberal. This is the mechanism of coming out of, putting the college. National nightmare. This is the root out of it. Bill sokol there it is folks. Us what happens. That me think the Lifelong Learning institute which will be offering any more discussions like this about americans unfinished business. And i personally thank larry because it is been just wonderful larry. Think is much. Lawrence rosenthal thank you and let me think holly. I understand there are people out there who are listened to this in while youre all faceless. Thank you so much being here. Bill sokol good night and i think we have taken you through this hour. Thank you. Today at 7 00 p. M. Eastern, the live discussion with pulitzer prizewinning author bob on his new book rage. Which looks at president Trumps National and Foreign Policy decisions. I spoke to become on cspan2. Sunday october 4th at noon eastern, on in depth, are live to our conversation with Harvard University professor. His most recent book is if then. Other titles include the secret history of wonder woman. These truths, history of the United States in the book of ages. Joining the conversation with your phone calls. Facebook comments and texan tweets. Much in depth with jill. Sunday october 4th and noon eastern on the tv on cspan2. Heres a look at some books being published this week. And firebrand, republican congressman of florida explained support for President Trump. Improvise is the future of the conservative populist movement. Retired lt. General and formal National Security advisor for the Trump Administration, hr mcmaster, ways and on the National Security threat in america and we face in battleground. And the virginia dynasty, farmer second lady lynn cheney, michaels leadership before the first five president s who hailed from the state of virginia. George washington, thomas jefferson, James Madison and james monroe. Also being published this week in the folly and the glory. Pulitzer prizewinning author tim provides a history of the secret Political Warfare between United States and russia since 1945. They democratic congressman Elijah Cummings talks about how his early life prepared him for his political career. We are better than this. In the trump century. Foxbusiness anchor lou dobbs argues that President Trump is fundamentally changed how politicians act. And journalist recalls his career as the executive editor of the Washington Post in all about the story. I these titles this coming week wherever books are sold in much for any of the authors in the near future. On book tv, on cspan2. In up next on book tv, we are live with pulitzer prizewinner journalist bob woodward. His book rage. This is a Virtual Event being hosted by politics and prose bookstore in washington dc. He will be in conversation with author and new yorker writer. I am the coowner of politics and pose. Along with my wife, lisa muscatine. We had a Great Program for you