Guest netflix is a world leading entertainment service. We produce and distribute amazing Television Series and movies. Weve been around about 20 years and have about 200 million families around the world who are our members. Host is there a connection to the 1998 company where you had 900 movie titles, 30 employees . Guest theres a little connection to that. We started 22 years ago doing dvds in the United States, competing with blockbuster. That was a whole decade really that we were competing with video stores just in the u. S. , and thats 2007 when we started streaming, roughly the same time that youtube did. Host erin meyer, how did you get involved in this book project . Guest i study cultural differences in the workplace, and. A professor, a Business School professor, and i first came across the netflix Business Culture definitely on the internet way at the beginning, and it was quite shocking when i read it. [laughter] so it said things like adequate performance gets a generous severance. And that really shocked me because in my department at the Business School i teach at, we were, at that time, facing a lot on Psychological Safety in the workplace to promote innovation. So here i add had a company that was not focusing on Psychological Safety, but focusing on getting rid of people who didnt perform adequately. There were other things like the fact that they had no vacation policy, no travel policy, things that really kind of got me talking about how a cultural culture like that could work in an organization. So i started doing a lot of research, and thats when i found something really interesting. Host well, your booker the culture map, is one that connected you two, right . Guest absolutely. I was fortunate enough to be recommended the culture map by a friend, and i read erins book, the koreans and the frenches and the mexicans and te americans, and it spoke to challenges we had at netflix, so its a fantastic insight. So i asked her to be a speaker at various internal conferences that we had at netflix, and then i realized she would be the perfect one as a kind of chronicler and astute observer of culture to write the book. And the point of having a coauthor is, like many people, ive read a lot of ceo pontification books, and every time i read them, i wonder what its really like, you know, in the [inaudible] and i thought, okay, we bring erin in, shes got a real reputation, shes a professor, ill give her open access to interview over a hundred netflix managers throughout the world, and, you know, let her write honest lu about the reality honestly about the reality. Some of the readability of the book comes from that tension between me doing the and erin really talking about the reality as employees experience it. Host and, erin meyer, you were pretty aghast when Reed Hastings sent out an unfinished draft of a chapter, werent you, to employees . [laughter] guest oh, yes. Im sure reeds happy to hear about that again. [laughter] the importance of being transparent with your employees, and, you know, i learned at my time doing interviews there that that level of transparency is way beyond what you find at most companies, and that is spearheaded by reed. So one of the experiences that i had was i worked at length on this chapter, but it was nowhere near finished, and i sent it to reed to start working on. A couple weeks later i was doing some interviews at the netflix amsterdam office, and one of the employees said to me during the interview, oh, when i was reading the chapter that you wrote, and i was like, what . He said, oh, yeah, reed sent that chapter out to the managers at netflix. And i was, like, all of the managers . [laughter] and what i found out was that when they talked about transparency, he means really helping everybody see whats going on even before its finished. Host now, youre quoted in the book as saying i love the netflix culture for its honesty and [inaudible] for its content. Guest yeah. That was my first reaction before i started doing the interviews and really understanding netflix. And i think thats actually one of the reasons that reed was interested in having me get involved with the book, was that it provided this kind of tension of my reaction to some of these very controversial principles and then his, his belief as to why that kind of Corporate Culture was a success. I remember feeling shocked at the quote about the generous severance, but there was another part which is about candor. And what it says, which some find what it says is dont say about somebody what you wouldnt say to their face. And, of course, you know, most of us spend a lot of time at work talking about people. So i just couldnt imagine how that could actually play out in a work environment. And then i got to netflix, and i got to see it in action and the advantages that go with it. Host and what are some of those advantages . Guest well, i guess ill give a personal example. So one of the first things i did with reed and his team was give a presentation at one of their leadership conferences. We were in cuba at the time, and i [inaudible] all of the Vice President s and directors of the company. I thought it was going well, and i was a little nervous because i was working with new content, but they seemed really engaged. And then it was time for me to give them a little activity. I got down from the stage, i started walking around, and one of the women who was having a discussion, one of the employees was talking with great hand gestures. And when she saw me, she beckoned me over, and she said to me in front of her group, right, she said to me in front of her group, you know, erin, i was just saying to my colleagues here that the way that youre presenting this information, its really undermining your point. Because when you ask the group for questions, its only the americans who raised their hands and, therefore, were not getting diversity. Then she she said, you know, i dont think that we can, i dont think with we can take this to heart given the poor delivery that youre giving. And, you know, i was like, oh, my gosh, somebodys giving me feedback right in front of this keynote. But then i had about three minutes to think about how to reorganize the structure of the discussion so when i got back on stage, i did it differently, and i actually think that candor saved the presentation. So thats what we see with this kind of candor at netflix, is that sometimes it hurts, sometimes it feels kind of inappropriate, but it almost always helps improve performance. And thats fantastic. Host Reed Hastings, what caught me about that part of the book was why were you holding a conference in cuba . [laughter] guest because were expanding globally. It was a symbol of we want to entertain people everywhere including cuba. Host and do you have a real presence in cuba . Guest unfortunately, in the last four years this was about five years ago, the cuba conference the hopes of oping up the internet in cuba have diminished. So we were on our way to a great presence there, which every we have a very strong presence in brazil and mexico and many other latin countrs but not yet countries, but not in cuba. Host talent diversity, what is that . Guest to accomplish something hard, youd rather have ten amazing people who work well together than twenty not so good people who dont work well together. If you can combine people who are very talented and have good team skills, then in many causes a small number can be very effective, and thats talent density. Host erin meyer, isnt it normal corporate well, first of all, when you hear the words Corporate Culture, what do you think about . Guest well, i so my first book, the culture map, was about National Cultural differences, and ive never been interested in researching Corporate Culture and focus until i came across this company because almost every company i look like, the Corporate Culture is a list of aspirational dreams as to what wed like this company to be like. We believe in integrity or we believe in respect. And it just seemed like, you know, it didnt really have a life in the company. What i saw with netflix was reeds way of explaining the culture, he was helping his employees to make tough decisions during the day by looking at these tensions like the tension between talent density and [inaudible] for example and that it was only when he helped people kind of deal with these tensions that the Corporate Culture would come alive in the organization. And thats what i saw with netflix. I thought here for one of the first times ever i see a company where what they say is their Corporate Culture is really living in the company. Host now could this culture be taken to a ford or a gm and implemented there . Guest its a great point. Weve had 200 years of factories providing Enormous Economic gains to our cultures. And in the factory, its a very topdown system. You have some senior boss, and then you have all the workers who are supposed to never make a mistake and assemble, you know, a perfect car or a perfect pharmaceutical or, hopefully, a perfect airplane. And so the manufacturing paradigm is very strong because its very valuable, and that topdown culture is well suitedded to a factory. Then youve got another type of work, Creative Work. It used to be very small, and now its grown to be a substantial part of the economy. And were overinfluenced by the factory paradigm. And remember, with Creative Work you want to increase variation, not decrease it like in a factory. And in Creative Work, you want to experiment and learn, and youve got to try many things, and its fluid. Its think of it as fertile is the goal in our culture and sterile is the goal in a factory. You want clean and clinical, perfect repeatable stuff in a factory. And the creative environment youre more on the edge of chaos to get the best ideas. So, again, as the Creative Center has risen, we havent figured out what are the right paradigms for Creative Work, and the netflix culture is one example of that where its really incredible employee freedom where theres no rules. Thats a hard way to manage, because youre managing on the edge of chaos. You have all these compensating systems about culture, about context that are very helpful. But think of it as a set of paradigms well suitedded to culture work, and our culture is not suitable for safetycritical work or manufacturing work. And its the beginning of new paradigms for Creative Work. Host so writing a book, thats using a rather old medium to put your ideas down in, isnt it . Guest we First Published these ideas online on slide share, and there have been over 20 million views of that. But we wanted were very much into the new format, but we wanted to do a booklength treatment where we really took the time to ed edit and, you know, write out the stories and reedit and sort of a high wily polished, well thought through version of the story. And those who have read the culture memo was the much fuller explanation of why it works. Host erin meyer or, of after your in depth study of netflix, where are your criticisms still . Guest before i move there, let me just build on what reed was saying a moment ago because you were asking about whether theres a place for this kind of culture in, for example, a ford or a cupid of more traditional kind of more traditional manufacturing company. What really struck me as i was doing this research on netflix was that any area of any company that is seeking to be more innovative or more flexible or trying to figure out how to reinvent themselves more quickly can benefit if these principles from these principles. So you might be working, i was working this morning with michelin, michelin tire, okay . Safetycritical, a manufacturing environment that certainly there are areas of that company that are focused mainly on innovation. So i do think, you know, that any organization and team leader, any see owe ceo, anyone who wants to get more innovation can really learn from creating this sort of fertile environment that reed was talking about. Now, you asked about criticisms. I mean, of course one of the things about doing something kind of edgy like this is there are always some difficulties that go with that. I mean, one of the big things that comes up with that, of course, if we only had a talent, we were really focused on a talent entity, then some people are nervous about whether theyre going the lose their jobs x. Theres been a lot of thinking about how to reduce that sort of worry while taking advantage of this challenge. Host now, and you have a story in the book comparing npr being a family to netflix being a team. Guest thats right. Well, i think reed is better to talk about that. But whereas most Companies Think about their organizations as they kind of seek to think of their organizations as families like we have longterm security, we put up with one another even when we have bad behavior. An olympic team is more what reed is going for at netflix which is we try to get [inaudible] at any moment, and that might be changing year by year or month by month based on whos best at that time. Host mr. Hastings . Guest i totally agree with what erin said. Every time you hear an organization were a family, you know, it makes people cynical because they spew tough lu know intuitively know that a family that we admire, a good family will stuck together no matter what, and thats just not the way, you know, corporations work. Host in your book, no rules rules, you you that employees are not allowed to let me drive this company off a cliff. What does that mean . Guest comes from an early quote with my coceo. He was choosing how many dvds to buy of a certain film, and i said, oh, i dont think thats going to be a very popular theme, and he ordered heads than he would have, and we ran out less than he would have, and we ran out. Customers were unhappy. I said why did you with order so few . And he said, well, you said it wasnt going to be so popular. I said you have to do what you think is right to help the customers and the company. You cant be trying to please your boss, me, youre not allowed to let me drive the bus off the cliff. You have to fight to defend the company. And in general we say dont seek to please your boss, seek to please the customers and to grow the company. So we want people to actively think independently not just to implement their boss wishes. They should never hide anything from the boss, certainly they should tell them. But the idea is to get really everybody through the company thinking about, you know, how do we best please the customers, how do we best grow the company. And if they do, you get the tremendous results that weve had, you know, over the last 20 years. Host but, mr. Hastings, youre the founder of the company, largest stockholder, youre the ceo, you say you dont have an office at netflix, but at the same time theres some inherent qualities there that are going to make people do what you want. Guest sure. I mean, i lead by direction and example, you know, and i talk about whats important like, you know, customers and, you know, how they want to relax after a hard days work. Other times they want to really be pushed in terms of the content that i they watch. And so, you know, ill try to bring the Customer Experience home to our employees, i talk about culture, and its not that i dont want some things, its that we want everyone else to also want things, and then this those conflicts or disagreements a lot of good things come out of that. Host so, erin meyer, is it tough for a ceo to, in a sense, let go of that control . Guest i think its a really interesting, a really interesting process that reed has implemented because on one hand reed has very strong opinions as i think anybody whos running a company does. On the other hand, he has strongly made it clear throughout the company that he wants people to be clear with him when they disagree with him or when they have feedback for him. So they have this whole thing which is, you know, all about that if you are disloyal to the company, if you feel disagreement for what the organization is doing or your boss is doing and you dont express that the, so you were asking reed earlier about whether people really dared to give him feedback given his level of power in the company, and i always say its remarkable how frequently people do give back probably because he celebrates it whenever it happens. Host so, mr. Hastingsing, how do you define your job today, and how much time do you get to just think . Guest i get a lot of time to think, nights and weekends. And the traditional work hours i tend to be in meetings and talking with people or trying to understand what theyre working on, talking through, you know, various situations in certain countries, you know, how the content. Is evolving. So i think of it as i want to be highly informed. I want to know whats going on all throughout the company. But then i dont reach in and say, well, lets task this person instead of that person. If i detect that in general were casting, lets say too many men, ill say its probably not limited to one area, and i would try to, you know, abstract that a little bit and go to the principles of it which is, you know, theres a broad range of storytellers, you know, and we should have a broad range of storytelling and, you know, kind of get to the underlying lesson in it rather than pick the tactic. So im always trying to be a teacher, essentially, and ab strabt what i see. But to do that, i need to be highly involved and know whats going on throughout the company. So thats the recipe, essentially. Always trying to build organizational muscle rather than fix a particular problem. Host question for both of you, is the geographical area of Silicon Valley important, indus pence bl to what you do indispensable to what you co . Guest its one of many indispensable areas and, certainly, the culture and i, you know, come out of the Silicon Valley culture but at this point, you know, its a fraction, you know, well less than half of our employees are are Silicon Valley. So its super important to what we do, but about twothirds of our spending is on content. We have a majority of u. S. Employees in hollywood. So, you know, were really an Entertainment Company that, of course, like all modern companies are techpowered. Disneys coming at it from the other side, and they have a pretty good attack. They have pixar and all kinds of animation, and now they have disney plus. So i think all the Entertainment Companies are getting techunfused. Host erin meyer . Guest yeah. I think ill add to that. So when i started working with netflix, they were just getting ready for International Expansion which was quite interesting for me since i study and write about national and cultural differences. And they, you know, in 2016 were moving all over the world. So one of the things that we you about in the book that i was very impressed in researching was how this provocative and surprising Corporate Culture that was meeting to this i enormous ininnovation and flexibility could be implemented in countries around the world like in japan, singapore and brazil. So we really talk about in the book, like, how to take your Corporate Culture which may be very useful at your headquarters and then figure out how to make that work even when its in direct contrast with some the National Cultures that you may be moving into. So i think thats a really interesting part of the story. Host Reed Hastings, sheryl sandberg, steve ballmer, bill gates come up in the book. Whats the level of collaboration or, you know, friendship among ceos in Silicon Valley . Guest its quite variable, im sure. So those particular three people that you mentioned, you know, ive had longstanding relationships with. But i would say, you know, Silicon Valleys a very competitive mace and, you know place, and, you know, we compete with other Entertainment Companies like disney and hbo. So, you know, those tech leaders that you mentioned are all very friendly because its not too expectative whereas, you know competitive whereas with the Entertainment Companies it can be a more challenging relationship. Host well, we cant finish this without talking about my favorite person in the book, and thats patty la cord. Erin meyer, did you have a chance to talk with patty . Guest i talked to patty a lot. Patty is a great storyteller. Shes got an incredible memory. [laughter] so reed, often i was pushing him for more stories, and hed say i just cant remember it. Whenever that happened, i always called patty, and she always had a story to provide for me. Host who is she, mr. Hastings . Guest patty was our founding head of h. R. , was with us over a decade, a real pioneer. A lot of these ideas gave us pernicious, pushed us permission, that we could be great employees without rules. If we focus on giving them an environment that stretches them, that became the way we oriented everything. Host and one of those no rules is vacation time. Guest well, you know, its a funny thing, we dont know how many hours someone works in a day, whether its 8, 10, 12 hours in a day, and yet in the old days we used to count vacation, whether someone was working 46 weeks a year, 48 weeks a year, 50 weeks a year, and and we realized why do we care between 48, 46, 50 if were not even measuring 8, 10, 12 in a day . Its this industrial hangover that i talked about, you know, from the factory mindset. And so lets just let everybody take what they want, and its worked out great. I try to set a good example of taking vacation and being visible about that. Is so thats been very positive. You know, its not that we beat blockbuster because we have unlimited vacation and they dont, but its a powerful symbol of Employee Trust with almost no risk. As patty mccord used to say, we dont have a clothing policy either, but no one has come to work naked lately. So the lesson is societal norms work fine for many things such as its good to Wear Clothing in the office. And vacations a good part of your life, but works important too. Host Reed Hastings, when you in the evenings and on the weekends have time to think, what do you think youve achieved in the last 22 years . Guest well, i never think about that. Im always thinking about what we have to achieve ahead and how hard it is. You know, the key sort of relentless dissatisfaction. So i look at our success to date as a good start, and, you know, what we want to do is build a company that really entertains the world, connects people and, you know, people learn so much through entertainment of other peoples lives. It could be other countries, other cultures, other racial groups, other genders, all kinds of things that you really, you know, learn through entertainment and exposure. And when we think of how big the internet is around the world, we have a tremendous opportunity to continue to grow, and were just getting started. Host our big threat in the long run is not making a mistake, but lack of innovation. No rules rules is the name of the book. Erin meyer and Reed Hastings are the coauthors. Youre watching booktv on cspan2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Booktv, television for serious readersment readers. Today at 7 p. M. Eastern, a live discussion with pulitzer prizewinning author bob woodward on his new book, rage, which looks at president Trumps National and Foreign Policy decisions. Watch booktv on cspan2. Heres a look at some books being plushed this week. Published this week. In firebrand, republican congressman matt gaetz of florida explains his support for President Trump and provides his thoughts on the future of the conservative populist movement. Retired Lieutenant General and former National Security adviser for the Trump Administration h. R. Mcmaster weighs in on the National Security threats america faces in battlegrounds. And former second Lady Lynne Cheney chronicles the leadership of four of the first five president s who hailed from the state of virginia; george washington, thomas jefferson, James Madison and james monroe. Also being plushed this week published this week, in the folly and the glory, tim weiner provides a history of the secret Political Warfare between the United States and russia since 1945. Late democratic congressman Elijiah Cummings reflects on his political career in his memoir, were better than this. In the trump century, fox business anchor lou dobbs argues that President Trump has fundamentally changed how politicians act. And journalist Leonard Downey jr. Recalls his career as the executive editor for the Washington Post in all about the story. Find these titles this coming week wherever books are sold, and watch for many of the authors in the near future on booktv on cspan2. Good morning and thank you for joining us here at post live. Im karen, im a columnist here at the post. I write about politics, and it is my great pleasure this morning to be interviewing a couple of my colleagues and friends, Kevin Sullivan and mary jordan, about their brand new book, trump on trial the investigation, impeachment, acquittal and