Im bob costa, National Political reporter at the Washington Post. Welcome to Washington Post live and another special interview for the Texas Tribune festival. Today its senator marco rubio, hes been someone ive been covering for over a decade as he first ran for the u. S. Senate in 2010. Thank you for beinghere. Thank you for having me. Were 49 days away from the election. You serve as chairman of the Senate Select committee on intelligence. From that see what is the biggest to our president ial election in terms of foreign interference . We have to bring up foreign interference into two categories, one is meddlingin the architecture and the mechanics of the election and the other is sort of the messaging. The psychological operations and the design to get us divided against each other and let me talk about the second one or a moment. Thats actually yearround and what their adversaries basically is a look at all these fractures in our society and they seek to drive. They seek official on that. Use social media increasingly and what youre seeing is the use, create a website somewhere. They may even hire americansto write on the website and put out there. So thats an ongoing challenge. And thats yearround all the time and i think thats going to continue to be developing over the years to come and the theory is if you get a country to fight be against each other internally which we already do a good job all byourselves , it weakens our country and that society over time so that the first part. The second and its related to the first is to try to mess with the elections and people think about it is they go in and change votes. Thats the hardest enkidu in a meaningful way. More concerning to me is the situation where you could get into a county selection system. You could delete a bunch of voters from the voter rolls and you would strategically that there are all the voters are from one party say you pick a democrat county where every democratic Election Officials, but republicans are the ones that when they show up to vote allowed and even though will get a provisional ballot in most state and ultimately the vote will be counted , this narrative will get out there that republicans were being allowed to vote or vice versa and then its a close election you then use your influence operation to promote their narrative that in some parts of the country in certain counties, partisan Election Officials were preventing democrats or republicans or people from a certain racial or ethnic makeup from voting. All that designed to create chaos and questions about the legitimacy of the election. That would be their dream that would be the biggest achievement adversary has ever scored against us in an election cycle is to bring us to the point where people honestly believe, half the country believes that the person is going to be swornin was not validly and legitimately elected. Its a grave threat to our republic and the way i tell people is that i think about 2020 and the 2000 election but on steroids. But 50 times worse than that, breaking out in multiple places and it will be about hanging chad. It will be about whether someone was cheating on purpose to the concert and there are multiple adversaries have the capability to do it and at least three have the intent to do it to some level area. Humans and website and account being created. Facebook recently removed some of those things were created by russian operatives. What news can you share in this final lap of the campaign about what russia is up to in terms of meddling. I think it evolved beyond and it evolved beyond russia. If not just about the state account where about that hasa name and a facebook account. Im talking about you. The website or you create some news agency of some sort on the internet and it really is promoted and sponsored a fake and then you hire some americans who wittingly or unwittingly use it to write a story that look like news reports. And then you get people to organically read online as real news and a threat so i think that is one of the challenges we all of us need to be aware of is that just because it looks like a News Organization doesnt necessarily become one but weve reached the point now where its very difficult to distinguish and ill be frank and with all due respect a lot of americans already questioned many of the mainstream outlets area today. Slices where it promotes narratives, not a place that promotes new stories is huge model where people are naturally drawn to reports, canoes, twostory that further their preexisting notions and that for your preexisting beliefs and its become attractive for people to read articles even if its a source youve never heard of, to read articles and for your preexisting bias on policy. So again, that an ongoing threat but its one that i think youre going to see is sort of a difference andwe seen in the path. Is the russian government stoking Racial Division at this time on social media can mark. I dont think theres any doubt. China, particularly around and russia in this case are constantly in search of what our fractures, what are things that americans fighting against each other because it helps them on two fronts. It helps them by weakening us internally, they figured them more with each others throats the less capable we are of governance internally or around the world also helps to some extent brand messaging where they saythese are the people that are lecturing us about democracy and freedom. They are chaos. They are destroying each other. This is what socalled democracy at least their version of it looks like. So i have to for. Help them by weakening us and help them geopolitically but it also helps domestically by going to people and saying this is oursystem of governance , its better than the american system. Because look whats happening over there. They have rights, there fighting with each other all the time. And so theres no doubt if theres anything at the divisive in america they dont create they will drive it. It will do everything theycan to drive it. Beyond russia youve mentioned china and iran. We got coverage of heidis interference, can you share any specifics learn more about the extent of chinese interference in the election . I think when it comes to china i would look at their tactics and their goals are a little different. Chinas goals and i dont have any doubt in my mind china doesnt want to be reelected a measure that against our concern that their involvement is revealed , they will, it will be counterproductive for them but ultimately, chinas approach to the this and its not new. A floppy for years using for example american corporations in china and they only spent on the political process they use leverage to. In that regard but the chinese goals is to try to influence american policy towards chinas preferred position. And that could eventually extend to going after individual candidates in an election and it takes also the forms from punishing our Congressional District that would trade measures, all the way to a have the capability of doing everything russia does and more so they have capabilities and you can foresee them one day using individuals that a us china hardliner and what have you. So they certainly have the ability to do it and its just aquestion of , we really wouldnt need the intent to do it until after its been done but they have the capability to do everything russia does. They have more capability than russia in many cases. More capabilities than iran and its a question of deciding how far they want to go because i do think not that they are more measured but they worry more i think about backlash if their hand is revealed. They can be more aggressive and we probably wouldnt know about it until after the fact. Ive been reading many of your recent speeches and theres a common refrain. If you took that phrase and applied it to your work as chairman of the Intelligence Committee you do support the free market but should social Media Companies like facebook be more regulated with all of these threats from abroad . Thats a great question because its a new question. Are they a publisher or are they a content site . I think they have and thats a good question. Heres the problem or heres the complexity that it raises what is the timeline between foreign interference and narratives on social media that are domestic but that may not be true. The truth of the matter is as an american the First Amendment does give you the right to say things that are not true. Obviously there are limits to that if itsgoing to cause a panic or cause people to hurt each other , the proverbial screaming fire in a crowded moviehouse or theater but that said, the problem now becomes when they start going after the speech of political figures as they dont agree with their political narrative, then it gets complicated so its a tough issue to talkabout. I certainly think that its an issue we will have to grapple with. My view is for the most part they have tried to be aggressive about going after , some more than others. Facebook has been more aggressive about identifying foreign sources of information and trying to eliminate them from those platforms. Whether regulation will make it closer is something im always cautious about because im not sure that in the end we can define or closely regulate how that content is dealt with area i would much prefer to enter into a collaborative compact with them that clearly delineates the difference between domestic legal speech and foreign efforts to interfere or spread propaganda within our country. This is a 21stcentury impression and a tough one to work through area i do think however that if social Media Companies are going to get into the business of being publishers where theyre going to edit out information , they should be treated as a publisher including for purposes of liability. So its something were going to have to grapple with. I dont have the answers but i recognize the problem and were making some headway. You brought up just nowthe challenges on the domestic front which are happening in your own state. This qanon Conspiracy Theory, a pollster in your state said the Latino Community in florida is dealing with an onslaught of issues related to this qanon conspiracy spreading around florida. Are you alarmed about that inside your state and more broadly in the us . I say two things, the first is i dont think those conspiracy theories have anything to do with the outcome and thats in many cases the things that are being promoted out there are all they are doing is as i said a few minutes ago is they are reaffirming preexisting positions on politics. As far as conspiracy theories are concerned and this one in particular, yes its ridiculous. Its stupid and to some extent very dangerous. One thing is to see these things out there and take it for what it is and another is when you have someone who has some challenges and see this up out there and decides that somebody could get hurt so that part about it concerns me very much and i think my deeper concern is that we are a society and a country in which people are vulnerable to this sort of thing and at the core of every Conspiracy Theory is fear. Is the fear that, fear is what drives it so is that weve reached thispoint of fear and security in our country where people are likelier to believe some ridiculous Conspiracy Theory than they are what they see reported or what their leaders tell us. Really is a warning to both leaders and those who report the news about how important it is that they do Everything Possible to build up and protect and secure the credibility both for those of us in Public Service and those of us who report on our work is in the absence of it you do leave a section of our population vulnerable to what could in some cases be dangerous and in some cases stupid but in other cases dangerous conspiracy theories that could lead an already deranged person to take violent action against someone because they believe that person is a pedophile or is running a child sex ringor something along thoselines. Senator rubio one more question on election security. Youve seen this complaint, a whistleblower complaint from a senior official saying that in short, he was pressured by the white house, by dhs to stop providing intelligence analysis on the threat of russian interference. Youre here in this interview today. Having a candid conversation about interference and as chairman of the Intelligence Community have you ever heard about the white house or acting secretary wolf atdhs pressuring officials or analysts to not say certain things on russian interference . No i havent and i havent seen it in the recording either. Everything ive seen and all the work done by all our agencies have been pretty straightforward and to the point on all of these things including the Public Disclosures by mister avenida who i believe was identified by name and sanctioned an individual in ukraine behind the sort of russian efforts area that said there is a process in the law for our how the whistleblower complaint is handled when its revealed to congress, the committee who has jurisdiction and thats an intelligence matter. We have a process to handle that and weve already begun that process. As i said we handle it the way we handle any whistleblower complaint that comes forward. Going to take it seriously and running through the books and our staff is already working on it and we will get to the end conclusion on it after weve done that work so well treat any whistleblower complaint that way and that process has alreadybegun. Lets turn back to this tension between your freemarket and services him that she theearly part of your career and still does to some extent and your new focus on china. When you speak about this idea of common good capitalism and, should the us be doing more to ask pharmaceutical companies and ppe manufacturers to produce goods and products in the United States . First of all i think the final question is why do we have a market and an economy . Is the purpose of our country and our people to serve the economy or isthe purpose of the economy and the market to serve people and i think the answeris obvious. The economy is the means , the ends are the wellbeing of our country. Im a supporter of Free Enterprise and capitalism because i believe its the best system to deliver the best results for our people and for our country and for the common good of our nation area that said i recognize that the free market, one of the things i love about Free Enterprise is it will always reach the most efficient outcome. It will allocate capital to the most efficient use and often times thats a great benefit to the unitedstates of america. Every now and then , its not. It is not in the best interest of our country or the most efficient use of capital is to take pharmaceuticals in china or to make certain manufacturing have certain manufacturing happening overseas area but thats not always in the best interest of the United States of america and its not in our best interest to depend on china or any other country for that matter or an overwhelming percentage of active pharmaceutical ingredients ingredients or personal protective agreement and i would extend that to depend on china for a significant percentage of our minerals that we need for technology or our manufacturing installation capabilities and telecommunications and 5g so in those instances in which the most efficient outcome is not in the best interest of our country that is where government has an obligation in my view to create incentives for the private market and for Free Enterprise to do that activity within the United States and sometimes that best interest is because of national security. Sometimes that best interest is because the jobs that industry creates are the kinds of jobs that allow people to raise a family and have Strong Communities that they are a part of an that good for the country to. Senator rubio lets see say you have the tax rates for pharmaceutical companies to stay in the United States and a working american says why these Companies Get enormous tax breaks now to stay in the United States and my Small Business doesntget those same kind of basement level tax breaks. Its not necessarily geared towards a large company. One of the things we tried to do is through chairman ship is find ways for more of our programs to be about making it possible for smaller and new companies to enter that space and create competition but i would argue those incentives are already in place. Our laws already incentivize Large Businesses to do things. We have for example incentivize them to move manufacturing overseas and then ship things back into the United States for free trade agreements at very low prices so making goods for less somewhere else and send theminto the United States for sale. We already have incentives, im just saying the incentives are the wrong ones. If were going to incentivize behavior it should be behavior thats good for america and behavior good for american jobs that are created because thats whats going to help our country be stronger and our communities to be stronger but i absolutely believe theres a role to play for example by modernizing as i tried to do and were trying to do through reauthorization of the Small Business and ministration into a 21stcentury agency that tries to create a pathway to help smaller and new Companies Enter those spaces where they can provide either as the primary manufacturer, the primary company or as a subcontractor to the Larger Companies involved in that deal. Senator rubio youve made china a real concentration. The Us Ambassador to china said youve known from your own political travels to iowa , is stepping down. Who should be the next ambassador and it should it be a hardliner on china or someone whos more agreeable with the Chinese Communist party . Ill tell you its not going to be, its not going to be me. All kidding aside about that, thats a tough assignment but an important one. Im not even considering myself a hardliner, im a realist. China is a rich and powerful country and it will be a rich and powerful country for the rest of my lifetime, my kids lifetime and my grandkids that dont even exist. The 21stcentury is going to be defined by the relationship between the us and china and it will either be a relationship of essential military conflict or a balance relationship between two great powers. I want the latter. Thats not the direction were headed right now. Weve made a decision a long time ago that we thought once china got rich and prosperous it would become more democratic and would heal to International Relations and international promise. Has not worked out that way. It was a terrible mistake and that needs to berebalanced. We allowed them to be industrializing. We came up with this notion we would be the place that innovates and they would be the place that build and we forgot eventually its a place that makes things is also the place that innovates them in the long term and we need to be ableto be a place that does both but its an important moment for rebalancing. Where almost too late to it if it feels like where overly restive its because were trying to make up april 15, 2020 years of mistakes all at once but this work of rebalancing therelationship with china is not the work of one administration or one congress , its the work of a generation read this will take 20 or 30 years to get right but i believe we are beginning to head in the right direction. Since this is a focusfor you is there any name you recommend . I dont right now and maybe ill come up with one eventually but i hope it would be someone that hasthis sort of view in mind. I think in china were trying to hold them back. Thats not the goal at all. Its not about Holding China back, its about ensuring their rise does not come at our expense, particularly if chinas rise necessarily means the destruction of Americas Industrial base and Manufacturing Base and millions of americans left without jobs in communities that are hollowedout , thats not something we can ask accept. Chinas rise has to be one that does not come at our expense. Ideally you want to reach a situation where you have two great powers, china and the United States will have a balanced working relationship but thats not where we are today and its going to take time to get to that point. Thats not the direction wereheaded until recently and hopefully we can turn that around. What about holding them to account. In the book rate there are sections about how the Deputy National security adviser doctor redfield at the cdc were raising red flag after red flag about china not sharing information with the us government. Yes President Trump took some action but did President Trump do enough to address china early on with the pandemic . As you recall when he implemented the travel ban he was immediately accused by joe biden and others of w and criticized for doing that. I thought that was the right move. Im not trying to get into the complex geopolitical situations where its a broad relationship with china that had implications that are too extensive to cover in one interview. That said i think theyve been prettyaggressive about it in hindsight. Early on it would have been important to demand what i would have preferred to see is that early on it would have been said theres this virus. We have no idea of the extent that it spreading and we have no notion of their not sharing information about the bible markers that will allow research to begin to work on area theres no doubt that like any regime the default position of the Chinese Government is to try to cover up and its also true of totalitarian regimes is that bad news is not rewarded, youre not rewarded for being an official in beijing who want about this outbreak. Theres no reward for that and the result is the world has paid a price for it. China bullied countries around the world to not implement travel bands. They threatened them and as a result we know infected people got on airplanes and countries around the world can help spread that pandemic. Theyve already been held to account. Theres reputational damage theyve sufferedaround the world and by the rebalancing many countries are considering in terms of the supply chain and their relationships. What i like to see more direct connection on in january and february, absolutely but i also recognize the president would have been criticized for it and i also dont think it takes away from the things theyve done right like mobilizing the Industrial Base to wipe out what at the time was a severe concern about the shortage of ventilators. We have enough and the president was able to rally the private sector to create a ventilator surplus and its actually allowed us toshare those with other countries. You mentioned youre also chairman of the Small Business committee. We have a few minutes left to cover a few topics quickly. The Government Shutdown looms in a couple weeks unless a bill is figured out, does that looming Government Shutdown being a stimulus relief package is perhaps more likely, a bipartisan bill because congress wantsto get something done on all the spending fronts . Im surprised frankly, maybe im too often optimistic but i thought if anything that sort of break the fever and the sound of this unquenchable thirst for political power and ideological purity it would be a pandemic and for a while in april it did now we see in return and frankly i think no one here is blameless area i think theyre out onmy side of the aisle that many who pursue ideological purity at the expense of what we are facing. There is no cure free market response to the situation where you are telling businesses not to operate and an economy cant recover if youre telling businesses they cant operate and or telling people they cant frequent those businesses but by the same token i think democrat leadership has made a decision that theyre better off doing nothing. The president will be blamed forit and they will help them in november. Thats the disease thats inflicted american politics for the better part of 20 years and i hope that breaks momentarily at least so we can keep the governmentfunded and find a way to do something but theres no way were going to do 3 trillion but we have to do something and i hope we can realize that our country desperately needs us to act and to do something and i think theres a way forward that allows both sides to get a lot of what they want but not everything they want and the sooner we accept that and move forward on it the better off the country is going to be and i hope its going to happen in the next couple of weeks. We are certainly ready to go on ppe. Recent polls show your state net index between Vice President biden and vice President Trump. How concerned should republicans be at this point about florida . As concern about democrats are because its a close race. We know our state is a competitive state. Its a state barack obama won twice and donald trump one in a wave election in which several seats in congress and the state legislator went to the democratic side. We want a close race for governor and for u. S. Senate as a republican so the race in florida is becoming what it was always going to be a 1 to 1 and a half points race down the stretch between two candidates. If you put anyone on the ballot with a d or r next to their name their guaranteed 47 percent of the vote and the fight is over the remaining percentages and a lot of that has to do with turnout and enthusiasm but i also think the president will win florida for a variety of different reasons