Just very briefly your job experience and career. Yes, thank you for doing this today and great to be with you. Grew up in duchess county new york and received a nomination to the u. S. Naval academy, which i started a week after graduating high school in 1989, and i so i completed annapolis and was then commissioned in the u. S. Navy and served five years in the u. S. Navy, first as an arms control action officer doing International Arms control negotiations in the pentagon and then i moved into i served on a couple of Surface Warfare ships, couple of navy ships in atlantic the middle east. Dont you have a couple of degrees . Yeah, yeah. I have been sort of a life long student. Although i joke around, i was at annapolis, i dropped out in my junior year, but i have always been studying. Just because ive been working kind of throughout that period so i always kind of studied at night and go to night classes and stuff, but so, for example, when i worked in the pentagon i did my masters in National Security at georgetown and served on the pentagon, and then while i was a Research Fellow at the council or Foreign Relations in new york i did my mba in International Business at new york university. And then i worth mentioning because if people followed any of your story in the popular press, they likely heard that you were a not too intelligent kind of hapless guy and i thought that was a clear misrepresentation of what you had done, and then i think we also ought to start maybe at the beginning of the conversation with how you came to work in russia because if not for your presence in russia for business, at some point in time, they may not have had what some would call an excuse to wire tap you to what some would say get to President Trump. So, explain why youyear in russia. People act like its so suspicious if someone goes to russia or does business there when actually many thousands of Business People from the United States live and work in russia. Yeah. Its ironic in a lot of ways because i am a free markets guy, and actually that was my other degree. Did my doctorate at university of London School of oriental and African Studies looking at middle and Near East Affairs and thinking how i did a big Research Project on the tensions between capitalists and socialists approaches in various emerging market societies and one of the case studies i did was on russia. So, my first time to russia was during the late soviet period in the summer of 1991, a few months before the end of the soviet union. I was a part of the First Exchange program between the u. S. Naval academy and the soviets. So, ive been working over there in various capacities, again as i mentioned when i was in the pentagon, i did a lot of u. S. Russia arms control negotiations and when i got out, while i was at the council on Foreign Relations i did a Research Project with this Central Asian caspian sea basin and of course russia is one of the countries on the caspian sea. So ive done a lot of work in developing markets in general but with russia in particular, as one of a key emerging market. I was always i did a lot of work there and eventually its sort of on the interface between cappists and socialists type of approaches with the end of communism that president reagan worked on in terms of transitioning to free market societies. That was some of the i was really inspired with that growing up, and i decided i wanted to contribute to that process. Was it time in the not too distant past when people who worked in russia for the United States war not viewed automatically with suspect because this was encouraged by our government as we tried to help them move from what was the soviet union to something more we hoped to a market economy like ours. And then were you based there are no a Financial Company and lived there . Yeah. Me and another guy open it was Merrill Lynch the u. S. Investment bank. We opened their office there in 2004 and it actually its kind of related to the overall transition to the markets approaches, because in 1998, Merrill Lynch was one of the few banks that decided they were there was a Big Worldwide eme. Ing markets crisis and russia was hit hard and theyre decided to shut down the office. So fast forward six years later and russias then the biggest, fastest Growth Market in the world, and theres a lot of privatization going on, and again sort of more of a transition towards free market approaches. And so me and another guy ended up heading over there to open the Merrill Lynch office. Last point on this, and this all plays a big part in the story of what ultimately happened to you, but of course it is not unusual if you are businessman in the former soviet union, because of the way the economy works, if you Winston Churchill doing business with russians you were coming comingo contact with russian government officials and coming into contact often times with people who spied for russia, russians s who or provide intelligence for the russian government. Absolutely. Id a fa philosophy its useful to tell the truth and help serve your country to the greatest extent you can. That was my philosophy when i served in the navy throughout those years, and i had through a lot of different work i had done, various contacts in the u. S. Intelligence community and some people i know asked me for help. So, again, ive always served my country in various capacities, whether its as an eagle scout or catholic altar boy, serving my community, and as well as in the navy. When i was asked, i was more than happy to help, again witch the view that if its useful to provide accurate and insightful information, and since i had lived and worked there throughout for now its been over 25 years, it would be useful to provide insights and could be helpful no our country. You having been a source in the past for information for our fbi and cia, ended up really being thing that drove in the nail in the coffin in this operation that thats government had with you and essentially the Trump Campaign. The book, abuse and power, tells the whole story, where can people order the book . Well, my theres a website, carterpagebook. Com and that gives options in terms of where whatever book seller you prefer, amazon, and the full range there. So its all available. At carterpagebook. Com. And in case people dont know who i am, im an Investigative Reporter with a history of working at pbs, cnn, cbs, i happen an independent show now called full measure on sinclair sunday tv show that you can find online and ive written my knew book is called moyland how the news media taught to us love cent choreship and ahead journalism our stores both involve the governmenting having surveilled news an improper and or lawful way. Thats what chapter nine of carters book focuses on, called overcoming the abuses against american democracy, talk boaz surveillance. Ill read a short passage from that and then you can provide some context. You wrote the ill legitimate case against me revealed several other forevers of dysfunction, talking about government spying on you. When i was targeted with four applications for fisa surveillance you say, the applications were filed under title 1, which defined me as a possible agent of a foreign power. Now as an aside, you have provided intelligence for intelligence agencied that were secretly wire tapping you, claiming you could be spying for the russians. And you write but i wasnt the only target with my surveillance the federal government could make two hops from me, listen in on people talking to you, and people who are communicating with them, which would include the fbi reviewing your private data, private data from steve bannon, and steve ban nons contacts with donald trump inch this respect the carter page warrants were a direct assault on the first and Fourth Amendment right of all americans, and you say this is isnt a partisan issue. People from choose the spectrum see it as an american issue. So, as this unfolded, when did your start to believe they werent just after you, they were trying to get to perhaps President Trump or others on the campaign . Well, its interesting, sheryl, because i actually through my contacts in the Intelligence Community, i had someone give me a heads up, even before the first one of the main defamatory articles which was used by the comey fbi to get this fraudulent warrant. In september 2016, contact of my win tithes to the Intel Community told me the democrats paid quoteunquote Opposition Research people to dig up dirt on then candidate trump and his supporters, such as me. So i knew that they were in the process of trying to come up with lies primarily with the initial idea of just pumping it out to the media and getting people to a real Election Interference Campaign to deceive american voters, and this is again just a couple of months less than a couple of months between the 2016 election and then sure new york on september 23, 2006, even though im getting all kinds of questions from reporters, finally the washington post, new york times, cnn, all asking me about these same false allegations which the democrats paid for and theyre consultants were trying to push out in every way possible. Finally they found someone who is either a Media Organization that is either unethical enough or gullible enough or possibly both to go ahead and publish this article on friday, september 23, 2016, and really the rest is history because again this is one of the elements in part of this election interference where this these false stories were used as a way part of the fraudulent fisa affidavits against myself and people i was associated with. Other Trump Campaign volunteers back in 16. Lets say that by way of summary the thing said about you in part to get the wire taps under false pretenses, these secret wire tap applications said you were either already acting as russian spy or imminently about to become one, thoses to the qualifications. You can not a wire tap somebody in our society just on a hunch or a fishing expedition. You have to already have that evidence in hand some other way that either already acted as a russian spy, like for another country, terrorist, or about to become one and the fir fact they wire tapped you four times over the course of a year without any evidence to charge you with anything or do anything about it, seems to belie the nose you were about to do anything. But part of the evidence claimed that you had visit russia and made improper contacts with certain russian government officials as a liaison for the Trump Campaign. Is that a fair summary. I think it is and an important interesting insight goes back to your personal story in terms of having to deal with similar things if know as part of your ongoing battles in the courts related to this, its very similar to what we have seen over the last several years for Senate Judiciary chairman Lindsey Graham. You have been making various allegations with a lot of basis to it, and unfortunately people within the u. S. Government, department of justice, which handles all civil litigation and investigations such as this, they unfortunately have innovate been very supportive at all in terms of providing the full information about what happened, and its precisely the same thing that Senate Judiciary chairman Lindsay Graham and his colleagues in congress have been fighting for so hard. I think were all in this battle together and its very much the focus of this chapter here in terms of understanding everything that is at stake and how it fakes so many people such as yourself, myself, leaders in congress that are just trying to protect Civil Liberties and so its a very long complicated story and ive tried to make it as simple and as understandable as possible with this chapter, while also illustrating what exactly is at stake, just given the civil rights abuses or potential abuses that were all susceptible here. Lets call it the ultimate catch22. The very Intelligence Community and part of the government committing the pusses and in charge of holding the perpetrators accountable and you fine they have no desire to do that. Or to provide the information that would allow us to do that in court. They hold all the cards. I didnt just happen to you or me mitchell information says there were many operations, hundreds if not founds of people involved over short time periods and over longer time periods and other administrations, not just one administration. There are probably too many people to count who have been involved in potential because of their Constitutional Rights and we may never know. You wrote in chapter 9 he Senior Department of justice lawyer Michael Horowitz revealed that the breakdown in surveillance state has been much worse than we originally realized and an examination done of 29 of these fisa wire tap applications reviewed were possible abuse after they learn about yours, all 29 as serious deficiencies, and inself case the Inspector General could not even find the document that showed the fbis mandatory processes were followed. Inspector general revealed something that has been apparent to many for a long time you wrote, the whole system of secret surveillance is broken, and that is what you say getting at the heart of how this impacts people if they say so this happened to carter page, maybe hell get redressed in the end. This is much deeper than that. Absolutely. There are so many different dimensions and challenges related to it, and again, its a little bit of a spectrum. I think as youre saying. This is a serious problem that has happened for impacts all americans on the one hand. This is a core element of First Amendment liberties and First AmendmentConstitutional Rights. In addition to having freedom of the press, theres also freedom of thought and freedom of peaceable say september by and so many freedoms inherent in the First Amendment and unfortunately what you have sometimes is when people have a different view or when people journalists such as yourself might Say Something which is not exactly what the powers that be again, my the indent that started with me happening during the obamabide Biden Administration and sometimes you have happen political actors working to achieve their political objectives this ace great story that youre about to tell. Another bit of, like, wow insight you gave me when he interviewed you for my program full measure because people may say why target carter page . Well, theres some evidence they were looking for anybody surrounding President Trump. Best case see anywhere you they throughout trump was a russian spy and looking for russian ties. Worth case just looking for excuses, anybody who had been to russia or had experience in that region, to try to justify a wire tap to listen in on them. You with your experience with some of the fbi, they talked with you in the time period was at the boston bombing. Yes, i. Go ahead and take it from there. Well, its funny. The right after the boston bombing in the first half of 2013, i was helping the fbi with a particular russian spy case in new york and unfortunately i was writing in terms of certain approaches that should be taken. Had just recently read a little academic article, and i had awe of offer that is in in a meeting with the fbi agents, i mentioned hi various perspectives to them and i think theres a severe bias, this big inspect youre general report that led to the initial fisa use record as to these abuses that the Trump Campaign and myself were that were were inflicted upon us. That was serious. It extended far beyond that. One of the elements of that and one of the big debates is the Inspector General horowitz and obama appointee who said that, well, we dont find any political bias there. It was an interesting conclusion iryoure onlyot of people who talking to the same bad actors theyll i i begging them to let me provide input and this is another example of Civil Liberties not be respected, number one, but also the rule of law not being respected, because there is the privacy act of 1974 which gives american citizens, if the government is keeping records on you, you have the right to review that information, particularly before they distribute it to the entire world. And so there are lot of problems in that december 2019 Inspector General report, and i thought it was really essential that i get i help set the record straight. Thats when if decided to write this book, because there was this story is just so incomplete and i just wanted to tell more of the full story in terms of everything that happened as part of the Election Interference Campaign and President Trumps first campaign. Take us back. Wasnt there a sarcastic remark you made to one of these fbi people some years ago you thought may have stuck in their crew a little a craw a a litd maybe made them more vindictive when it came to coming after you . Again, its typical freedom of speech, freedom of ideas. I wrote in an oped which was very critical of the obama administrations policies and one thing in particular that i tried to argue in this article is instead of there were a lot of mistakes in Foreign Policy and in a Justice System context during the obama administration, but if they had paid more attention and looked for more constructive approaches, so many threats so many National Security threats to america could have been completely avoided; so, there was both a calling people out for some of their mistakes in terms of this academic article which got no real attention other than me talking to the fbi agents about it. And unfortunately one thing led to another, and just about a year and a half later those were meeting in the middle of 2013 after some help i was giving them way before this current scandal. Yes. Then a year and a half later in january of 2015, eric holder, pretty bharara and john karlik senior official inside obamaBiden Administration couple out with this indictment of three agenda russian spies and unfortunately they gave highly sensitive information, open indictment, and again i had supported them, given them a lot of Accurate Information and the way the information was presented, number one i had no forewarning that this would be taken to the next level in terms of making this a public indictment and actually filing charges. Even worse is the fact that some of the things i had laid out and told them in my original meeting with them and particularly the way they just to posed it to other information in the indictment, misportrayed the information i had given them, which one thing leads to another and unfortunately with a not a very professional way of managing that case and or recognizing someone who had long supported the u. S. Intelligence community the Justice System for many, many years, just really essentially putting my life at risk because eventually i explained it all in the book and its a long in prior chapters but its an ongoing spy thriller, of my back and forth. I was supporting them on the one hand, just also calling them out in some of my meetings with them, explaining the mistakes that had been made, and unfortunately, voicing or telling the truth and voicing an honest opinion made me even more of a personal target for political reasons than i could have imagined. So closing the loop on the violation of law, i think there were probably numerous ones but one we know happened against you by the fbi, it is required when they make these secret wire tap applications that if the person theyre trying to get a wire tap against, like you, has relationship with a he federal government as a source, as you did you happened the fbi and the cia that must be disclosed. Thats in fbi rules among other things that they didnt follow and when you publicly implied or stated or discussed with the fbi in a letter to them, hey, i helped you in the past, please come to me if you have any questions, this ridiculous when it was being leaked you were some kind of spy, they withheld that information from the court and apparently an exchange within the fbi and the cia in which the cia confirmed to the fbi you had been a source, and that was at the trigger that should have forced them to disclose this Important Information to the court which might have made the court say, something seems a little funny here, why would a guy that knows he is being watched, helpedes ins past be spying supposedly on behalf of russia. Instead this finn attorney who is meeting guilty to this, admits to having doctored the information, forged the document and said you had not been according to the cia a past source and that is i guess what really makes everything fall apart in a very official way in terms of what they did to you. I think thats a great share. Again, this is one a very powerful fbi attorney who was involved in this particular part of the charade but i think if you read closely the indictment and as youre referring to me giving a heads up, the fbi in that case two days after this defamatory article planted by the democrats in september 2016 on sunday, september 25th, 2016 i sent a letter to then fbi director james comey, just explaining the truth and trying to explain reality to this guy. And i said at the end of this letter, you know, id been in touch with you and been in touch with the cia going back a long time, and please if you will, if this is obvious how ridiculous these allegations are. If you have any remaining questions, if you have any sort of doubts whatsoever, do not hesitate to contact me. Not only did they not contact me during that period, over the fiveplus months following that, its when they mr. Comey and sally yatess submitted the first two false highly knack cure fisa warrants inaccurate fisa warrants to the court in washington and, unfortunately not only were they not talking to me. They were instead dealing with a dnc funded consultant who was doing this major Smear Campaign against thencandidate trump and his supporters such as me, and leaking like crazy to the media. I mean, there is just so much wrongdoing in there and its encouraging they were steps taken reestablishing the rule of law. I hope this book provides some initial impetus in terms of some of the major problems and i just wanted the American People to know what the full truth is underlying this attack. Called the book is called abuse and power and he notion that inspect youre general wouldnt speak with you during his investigation, that when you tried to get the fbi to talk to you to clear things up as they were targeting you, they wouldnt speak to you, reminds me when the government operation against me was confirm. I never dreamed this is happening. I had intel sources that alerted me because i would never have imagined the governor was spying on me and other journalists. I later learn the finn once crazy news announced the intrusions that happened, and we have had a half dozen forensic exams, but i learned through a freedom of information act request, the fbi is withholding most of the information from me about my own case, they opened a case when cbs announces there had been these intrusions into my computers and they listed me as the victim, never contacted me, never tried to help me, never told me there was a case. I wasnt even aware of it. Never did anything about it as far as im concerned and i can only assume its because there war some contacts inside that new this was involving government agents, not a rogue case involving outsiders. Reminds me where you say youre waiting at the door to talk to and help clear your name which you have a right to do and you cant even get their attention as youre being smeared. One really interesting facet when i interviewed you from my program was and i didnt know the answer to this question before i asked it. But i basically. Have you ever met President Trump. I have not. Unfortunately just being totally misportrayed ive been a man on the run and if refer to it as my International Fugitive years. Unfortunately with those same types of problems and challenges which are create by this massive government footprint coming down on your head like like a be light, i know you have had goliath and you have had similar battles trying to reestablish justice with your own case, just an uppill battle nonstop. So but, no, never had the opportunity and unfortunately they smear various people and then it creates huge legal liability for anyone that wants to communicate or maintain a relationship, and i talk about this in the book with certain individuals, so essentially by the time that 2016 election came around, i was just a complete International Pariah and almost everyone knew wanted to have nothing to do with me. Not just high level people win the Trump Campaign, including the candidate himself, but basically everyone i knew and so the one exception to that was a Professor Cambridge University in the uk, the gentleman named hall pert and has been revealed he was part of what is known as spygate, where government operatives were looking to surveil and be part of this spying operation against the Trump Campaign unfortunately, and so along the lines of well, have you met them . I wasnt really meeting with anyone with the exception of this one guy who i thought was a good potentially good hearted person with his heart never right place and little did i know he was high paid government operative, hired by the during the obamaBiden Administration to spy on at the Trump Campaign and the operations of the campaign at that time. Justed ad to the per second of the absurdity you we be a he level spy in the Trump Campaign and never mat the man and never spoken to him on the phone, never emailed him or anything. Yes. Also, i wonder, as of december when the horwitz report came out, december 2019, there was never any doubt, even if people had some doubt, that improper things had been done to you specifically and obvious by bigger implications and now that theres been a guilty plea bit they fbi attorney their former attorney, kevin, theres been a guilty plea in your case showing that you have been abused. Has anybody reached out to you from the government, department of justice, any attempt to remedy this . I know theres no way to as they say get your reputation back or good back in time and sadly even a payment of money will not be re dressed in a significant way but thats the only thing the government could do. Has someone reached out of to you with a giant apology and some offer to try to remedy these wrongs . Well, again, somewhat similar to your case, where its been a long, ongoing battle which continues and ive been fighting this goal back to going back to he the time four year ago when i wrote the letter toage comey. Id just been fighting for the truth and some small semblance of justice, and so unfortunately i have been in various litigation myself up against the Massive Department of justice and part of the problem is i mean this is literally the Largest Law Firm in the world. Countless i then ten thousand plus lawyers with unlimited resources, ability with with the ability to just achieve their individual and many cases political objectives and although there have been important steps forward, my experience through this time is theres been very little very few steps or very little willingness to right these wrongs and i will, however, mention one small glimmer of hope it and also relates back to mr. Clinesmith. This month in august 2020 was the first time again we have talk but the privacy act violation, all the fisa abuse, criminal activities by government operatives such as the one we just discussed, this was the first time that some steps by doj were actually shown to actually respect my legal rights and Constitutional Rights. Theres this one slight legal trivia but one law called the crime victims rights act, and many aspects of this law are have been completely disregarded, even though it was widely understood that all these criminal acts had been conducted against myself and as a way of damaging President Trump, but it was the first time this month that the department of justice took some very limited steps to begin remedying this situation. So, its a small initial, tiny glimmer of hope and hell have to see how everything plays out with that, but again, i was slightly encouraged. Again, that law says part of it one of the ten nets of the law sauce you have the right to be treated with fairness and with respect for the victims dignity and privacy. And i think that one sentence in this u. S. Law is the absolute opposite of everything that ive had to deal with and so many other people have had to deal with unfortunately over the last thank i dont understand the impact what you just described on your case. Well, no real impact yet. All i will say is people have often talked but the boomer rang and all these bad acts by government officials creating incalculable damages for independent people such as myself, various trump supporter, the first time that basic legal rights seven the right to be treated with favorness and respect so anywhereness and respect could right, point well taken. Theres a tremendous amount more that needs to be done but this is the very first small tiny glimmer of hope that perhaps people somewhere within the department of justice are now acting ethically and accordance with the rule of law. So i am very encouraged by that one tiny step and hopefully there are giant leaps in the period to come. My last question along these lines, am i to understand that even today, at least as we speak you have been suing the department of justice to try to get these wrongs remedies and despite the fact the Inspector General came out and found these violations and despite the fact theres no dispute about it, that the fisa court itself acknowledged in a further investigation these abuses, youre still fighting in court . They havent come to you and said, you were right, theres nothing to fight anymore . We give up . Well, i mean, let me say this. Have a few initial steps ive tried taking. Unfortunately, the first time originally i filed a case in Southern District of new york and i talk about this in an earlier chapter as well. But unfortunately i made various claims against the government, and then it was during the rosensteinsessions years at the department of justice, and unfortunately it was a continuation of either false or Misleading Court pleadings by doj, and little did i know when i first filed my case three years ago in september of 2017 that a few months later, through a great investigation by chairman Lindsey Graham of the Senate Judiciary as well as thenchairman of the house intelligence committee, devin new nez uncovered that mr. Rosenstein himself one of them who sign this false Court Pleadings against me in june of 2017, well into the Trump Administration already. So, again highly dis appointing but i bear in mine theres a lot of other Trump Supporters who have been feeling similar problems, for example, general flynn and again there are certain steps that may be taken but its a big catchup game right now and hell have to see how everything plays out. After so many years of wrongdoing, war in the process of rebilling and obvious rebuilding and now that were a couple of months before the 202 election, im hopeful that there can be some progress because certainly if you listen to, for example, last week, sally yates, another person who sign two falsifies a warrants false fisa warrants to triple my civil and legal rateses she was a big political operative at the big National Convention of the dnc. And what is significance . Thats the same organization that funded and helped put together this terrible dossier which was part of the serious civil rights abuses which i had to endure. The Democratic National committee, again for people who dont know when you sign off on wire taps im told by any inside sources you would normally stay far, far away from a political competitor. You just dont do it and then if you feel you must for some overriding reason, that would have to go all the way to the top, to the president of the United States because its such a sensitive matter they have to examine that and then look at the wire tap if you sign off on it and make Crystal Clear that all of the processes have been followed. You would want to do that personally, not just sign it as they say they kind of did. Now that people at the top or implying they were fooled by the people under them when in fact its their responsibility to make sure that doesnt happen. So, anyway, wow. What a story, and you said carter page. Com is the place with all the options for the book . Carterpage been book. Com. The book is called abuse and power, the story is amazing, thank you, carter page. Thank you so much. Heres some of the discussion of judy gold. I really believe you have a right to say whatever. But i i think the basis of that argument in the book is that if youre going to talk about aids a or the holocaust or whatever, kids in cages, racism, whatever it is, it has to be funny. Like you can tackle that issue but you better craft a beautiful joke around because gratuitously spewing epithets or just shock shock value humor with no joke attached it to, thats not what we. Do thats what comedians do. Order of of course comedians make you think and laugh at the same time. Write im a lesbian and i came out in the mid90s but came out an stage as a gay parent. I finally have our first son, and i was like, every comic talk about their family. Ill talk but my family. And i had so much material. Before that i all talked about my mother, never talked about my partner because it was boring, frankly, and then we had this my god, this is amazing. Theres so much we have here. And also just the things people say to you. Just hilarious, and so im doing this material, and after a few minutes, most of the parents in the audience, who were straight, would be laughing because its the same stuff. The same stuff theyre going through. And at one point i used to do a bit in the late 90s, early 2000s, because its interesting how far Lgbtq Community has come, plus whatever, theres i, b, a, c, d, whatever, high five. We have come so far and yet you have children and it was the early 2000s and my kids are why cant you get married . It really was like ridiculous and i used to do a bit about all the people that are allowed to get married and i cant get married, like eric and Lyle Menendez kill their parents, he can get married in jail. Mary married ervan does ski, married more whites than i did. And its infuriating and i wrote this bit, and i was in houston and a guy, like a mail tear gay came up to me after the show and said, i really see why you guys want to get married now. Understand it and what just my god, its so the power of comedy is so amazing. Its breaks so many stigma because when you laugh with someone you like them. Its disarming. To watch the rest of the Program Visit or website, booktv. Org and search for judy gold. Or the title of the book. Can say that using the box at the top of the page. Good evening, everyone, and were live. Id like to welcome you to our Virtual Event with susan hough. I have some short guidelines. You would like to ask questions for the q a, use the ask a question button. If you see any questions that seem interesting you can vote for them and theyll make theyre way to the top of the list. Youre considering supporting the book store by purchasing a copy of the