Transcripts For CSPAN2 Senate Intelligence Committee Hearing On Declassification Policy 20240712

Troubles get getting linkedin, and hopefully we will be able to resolve this sometime. Theres a third vote pending as well. It will discuss declassification policy in particular will be discussing striking a balance between protecting our nations classified material ensuring Historical Documents can be safely get their moment in the sun. Im prepared to differ my Opening Statements for the following reasons. Senator moran is a chair hearing at 330 and in between, passing a vote and if its okay with both of you, and i just my time to senator so he can open with some comments as he joined us here today on this issue. Now he cant does not have to miss a vote and can share his important hearing at 330. We hopefully elevenths is working. Can i reserve a special favor. Yes absolutely. Take him for everything he has. Usa your comments. Of time to vote in the missing hearing. Mr. Chairman, is a real privilege to testify to be in front of this committee. I hold until committee in high regard. And its an Important Role in securing the security of our citizens. I appreciate the considerations the you and senator warner provided in the timing. Members of the committee, thank you very much for the opportunity dedicate for the declassification reform. And we are having us up and setting mr. As you may be aware i am a sponsor alongside with a member of this committee senator wyden. Senate bill, 3733 is declassification reformat. Soon why deny work on this issue for a long time. It is surprising to me if the end result is so straightforward and relatively simple. But it is an attempt to begin the process of modernizing declassification by designating the director of National Intelligence as the executive agent responsible for promoting programs, processes and systems related to declassification. The bill itself rest within the jurisdiction of another committee. This committee has previously considered this bill as amendment offered by senator white into the intelligence authorization act. Appreciate discussion of that bill which many of you and personally visited with me on the floor and throughout the capital complex. The conversations in todays hearing underscore recognition of the process which guides or nations relief of is classified information on unable to keep up with the overwhelming flood of digital data that is classified in daily basis. Congress has been toldd repeatedly over the years that the system is unsustainable. Lester the director of Information Security Oversight Office wrote to the president that the current framework is unsustainable and desperately requires modernization. And in 2016 the Public Interest the classification board reported classification systems is no longer able to handle the current volume and forms of information especially given the exponential growth of Digital Information. Four years later, theres that little evidence that the problem is on the path to being solved. The press is most budget records are no longer required classification. As impact the taxpayers is estimated to be 18 billion per year. And it denies Public Access to information that can be used to hold the government accountable. As the Public Interest to classification board notes that over alarm system for policymakers as well. Senator wyden approached me and i 2018, asked me to join him in an effort to craft legislation that would begin to address this problem. While i indicated my great regard for members of this committee, im not one of them and said it might be a question is why is this an interest to me. And certainly, the ability to save taxpayer dollars is of interest to me and ability to be more transparent to the market public, is of interest to me. In the ability for us as policymakers have the necessary Information Available to us is important to me. Protecting those tax taxpayers to the tune of billions is spent on classification and ensuring transparency from the federal government, and the ability to do that without jeopardizing National Security is a priority. For well over europe consulted with experts from the Public Interest declassification board and Information Security Oversight Office in the National Archives and othersi outside experts in the officials from our nations intelligence agencies as well as staff from this Intelligence Committee. When a technical solution such as. Artificial intelligence and Machine Learning exist to facilitate bring our system into the 20 percent three and we know individual agencies are taking steps with some of this technology to address the issue and a more coordinated effort and implement best practices is best required. The final product, the declassification reformat docs to keep recommendations for the latest report issued in may by the Public Interest declassification board. Senator wyden and i are not under the impression that the naming and executive agent will resolve every problem associated with classifying and classifying information that we do believe that putting an official with sufficient authority to implement changes across the government is a really good first step. Our consultation of the best year. We know is resistance and suggested improvements to the declassification reform and we also recognize other ideas that facilitate reform. I am pleased todays hearing posting to flesh out our bills and other ideas to address the problem of this magnitude. With the direction this committee determined to move forward with reform, resources will be necessary to have a minute and is a member of the defense appropriations subcommittee, please consider me and la in this endeavor. I have been pleased to join senator wyden in this effort unequally eager to work with members of this committee and achieving declassification reform that is long overdue and yet protect american citizens in our National Security. Mr. Chairman, i think you again for having us open hearing that allows me to testify and i think you and the Committee Members for the time and the opportunity to be here today. Thank you senator and thank you for being here. Going to sort of convince my Opening Statement in the interest of time. The congress established the Public Interest declassification board to advise the executive branch on the identification review and release the records. In may of 2020 the released a report in reform in the process. And recommended seeking way we for the declassify records. Today will look to our witness former horsemen to explain those recommendations. The me just say broadly the Intelligence Community agrees that reform is needed. The fact backlog of Historical Documents atlarge system for moving documents to review is completely outdated. And quite frankly and consistent throughout the National Security establishment. And i am however that the recommendations do not align with the deny porous rope given that they have needed the authority nor the expertise to serve as the leader of the declassification and a price for the entire government which is one of the issues that we discussed in terms of jurisdictions. For example they are not and should not be in a position at the deny to have the declassification rules for the Department Programs are Nuclear Programs for example. So we look forward to talking to our witnesses about a denies review of the declassification process in Business Practices including the prospect of the achievable reform within the concepts of the limits of the oh denies authority. Secondlyly it i think the subjet of this hearing allows us to emphasize a related pointed that is the difference between a process of responsible declassification of secrets and to not need to be secret. And selfish irresponsible leaks. In the recent we classify things is not because we try to keep things from people is because it t is revealed, you wl reveal how you learned about those things. And that people that youre into decentti you ae collecting on will realize that you have accesses to information and cut you off for more Important Information in the future. So this is why one of the main reasons why things are kept secret critical in this of course balanced with results positioned generally of transparency from government. And if necessary, we need transparency in order to have accountability. Better systems over government requires what has been found between these two equities of protecting the safety and security ofes americn people and to our ability to learn valuable information about adversaries and potential adversaries with the market people for transparency and everything from the government and what they do. So i would say that those, eventually very proud of this committee by and large has been very responsible in my ten years on this committee with the information we have come across. No matter what we found the issues, think it is hard to say that this committee has never been in my time on this source, of the sorts of. But there are those who do outside of this committee casually dismiss the responsibility of classified information. And many of them and frankly either never never cetera briefing mark then run into a billiondollar programs that have revealed when they were nation blind and deaf to the threats that we face. They have never met and heard about the brave men and women who risk their lives every single day to prevent the next terrorist attack. Or to feel the plans for a deadly new weapons system. These are the secrets that al qaeda, china, iran, russia and others seek. It would use that information to do us harm. These secrets need to stay secret. But not forever. An agreedupon bequest occasion process that allows review of secret documents, to ensure that those secrets can be given their day in the sun that harming people the programs of the american taxpayers. Done responsibly, that bill would be the trust between the people and governments. Build trust. So we will make sure that happens from the Intelligence Community. But some are not willing to play with the rules unfortunately. People who have put their lives in the line to get this information deserve better. It is either hard secrets slashed across the pages the New York Times of the washington post, just because of bureaucratic or politician wanted to sport some cheap political points for their own benefit. Our nation deserves better than that. Our people deserve better than that. They pay taxes to the government can provide for the common defense and we spend those taxes on technological runthroughs on brilliant mathematicians and clever computer scientists. If you make ten times her salary by working somewhere else. These people were four years to gain access to these secrets, the secrecy keep missing from the terrorist attacks or from the next enormous tax from china or somewhere else or to stop plans to try to influence to steal an election. And then see that excess evaporate when someone decides that they are above the Higher Mission thats going a political point is more important than protecting our country and honoring our taxpayers and the trust is destroyed. And our allies suddenly consider us security risks. In this note or statement toer say that peope die. If from politicians who want to be the first to the breaking news, we the market people, suffer for the selfish acts and benefits. Maybe the political, the politicians sank a few headlines for a few hours on interview on cable news but the real letter ultimately is our adversaries. All that said i want to take a minute to think t the professionals. On his shoulders these declassifications exist and the rest are a delight prefers, represents a very small group of people who in the last three years have been a vital partner in this committee. We sought to reveal information the right way. After working with Intelligence Committee to make sure we are doing no harm. All five volumes of the russian forecast through his shop for declassification previews. And we greatly appreciate his efforts, their efforts to r protect her secrets and yet ensure the market people were able to see our work. I wanted to thank the senator for his perspective as a historian and an academic and his leadership in ensuring the declassifications have been done properly while again for protecting your investment in our intelligent community. And the senator friend who is here today on this committee especially senator wyden who has been a leader perhaps the leader and trying to reform now perhaps, he is the leader trying to reform the declassification process. So thank you for being here. And let me just say, the housekeeping item will know when the votes are coming will b no. This is our first extremes with webex. Were not by nature very open to the public kind of committee so we are struggling with that as well. But where we have got it, we will do the best weekends we hope to work with this. So you ask everybody for their patients. Its nothing to do with keeping secrets. We promise that on this. So thank you. Thank you mr. Chairman. I think my friends moran and wyden this issue. N i think it is extraordinarily timely. I do hope we will get to hear from congressman and we have questions for them. I know declassification is a bit more technical. Some of the issues that we grapple with but is his fitting that we should have an open session to discuss it. We would all agree that todays declassification system is broken. It is outdated, it is slow, bulky, costly and most hopelessly inadequate for the digital age. Agencies are using a fragmented paperbased system. Resources and uniformity in technology to keep pace with the exploding volumes of digital records. This leads to errors, with classified information at risk, and erodes the American Trust in the system. For a quarter of a century ago, Commission Led by the late senator a former member of this Committee Found it while secrecy is important for security operations, policy discussions and weapon systems, also found that excessive secrecy has significant negative consequences. When the public cannot be engaged and informed debate which is extraordinarilyd timely and now in terms of election security. When policymakers are not informed. The government cannot be held accountable for its actions. Furthermore excessiver application saps resources needed for protecting those secrets that truly must be kept. I agree with the german those secrets are critical, they must be kept and honored in i think a greater way. But my fear is in todays digital age, if anything, the news solution seems much worse. They even which tensio of millis ne new documents are classified every year. Somebody anxious to hear from our witnesses on how the declassification system is functioning. Im sure will have questions. And the german recognize the very important work of senator wyden who without his constant persistence, i am not sure who would even be to this point. Would like to know see balance of my time to senator wyden for his comments as well. Thank you very much mr. Chairman. I especially want, to thank my cosponsors senator friend who i know is getting out the door. Also chairman rubio. Open hearings are rare. And i very much appreciate him doing this. Let me start by saying what our country safety is at stake, there is a very real need to classified documents. Essential to protecting american lives. What there is no need for is a dilapidated outofcontrol classification system that cost taxpayers more than 18 billion a year. And get this colleagues. Cannot even distinguish between what should and should not be kept secret. The classification system so i dated an dysfunction and dysfunctional that when it comes time to just classified document, the agencies have to find the dont even have the ability to communicate about it securely online. So heres what happens colleagues. Intelligence officials have to print out the documents. They put them in a bag and drive around from agency to agency. And if they get stuck in traffic, they better bring a bag lunch. Now watching these intelligence officials march around with their documents, might make for a funny saturday night live skit. But it is ann absurd wa wisdom taxpayer money is damaging to our National Security in our democracy. Documents this should not be classified or just piling up in secret databases. In the system is choking on itself. Its getting worse each year as a flood of new information gets classified digitally. As the chairman said, there is widespread consensus rated there is a serious problem here. As a widespread consensus and modernizing the declassification systems solution. There lots of good ideas for how to do it. The only thing missing is somebody to take responsibility and get it done. So thats what senator ryan and i are doing, Bipartisan Legislation that would implement the privacy boards recommendations and direct National Intelligence to take the leadership role. Theyre already responsible for information management, Information Technology and protectionor of methods. The d9 is already responsible for developing uniform policies within the intelligence communities and Solutions Solutions to this longstanding problem are and. One plus point. And chairman rubio, i like to make sure that i am part of this to you because i think you raised the central concern that i heard about the department of defense. The reform senator moran and i are urging, does not but the dni owed charge of deciding what dod secrets are declassified. It is about modernizing systems for de classifying information that the department of defense and other agencies have already determined are no longer classified. So im sure well going to have a good discussion again. Thank you for your courtesy and the opportunity to be here. Thank you. Welcome. We opened it up to you for any Opening Statement you might have. It is not are to appear before you on this panel to present the Intelligence Community. Im grateful for the opportunity to discuss the declassification. One of thene most important oversubscribed misunderstood areas of Information Security programs. Today hope tom. Give you better understanding of the current classification unsafe. Tonight perspective, reform and discuss the level of efforts that are required. And declassification are not requires significant change in massive increase in Digital Information eligible print 16 subject matter dedicates take less occasion views. Also small workforce daunting task in processing requests in a massive records which some estimates exceeding over. [inaudible]. Facing those kinds undoubtedly need support classification reform. Modernization must occur to meet the demands of digital age as well as information to the public. While safeguarding national information. Is the critical importance of public instance in our American People. Associate elements. [inaudible]. For National Intelligence information. Not only from the public, and also from congressional meetings in the presence including but not limited to, a large volume related to. [inaudible]. Information related to surveillance. Intelligence related to department of justice and inspector generals investigations. Active measures. [inaudible]. Ic review for a lease of National Intelligence information on avoid range of topics critically materials on the 50th anniversary. Also to process thousands of mandatory declassifications and requested each year. In. [inaudible]. The importance of the publics understandings of the challenges rated improving internal declassification systems. Larger investments of people and technology are required. The ic appreciate the objectives of declassifications. However, initial review, multiple concerns. First and foremost any reform must be consistent with the applications for the methods and unauthorized disclosures for unit. [inaudible]. They alsoo must address things such as the department of defense andfi energy which also has significantas because occasn and declassification information. Initially requires the investment in wide full change in the vision by the report. Legislation informs requires more programs analysis to understand and account for all auities. The ic agrees is imperative. I look forward to more discussion. National price tag of the intended objection. [inaudible]. The recommendation to make government wide for declassification. Responsible for all policies and practicing said the u. S. Government. Approach facing will be on its intended role. Delegated authority from the present declassified information is our other agencies in accordance withas the orders classified intelligent information for unit. [inaudible]. Declassification responsibility, thanks intelligence and intelligence related information within the components make up the ic. [inaudible]. Not information throughout the entire government. It generally does not stand is only resourced, they also be responsible for clarification and all information is treated the same. That is assumption iss false. Likely lead to unintended consequences. Many agencies have authority specific to their holdings. They do not have the capacity or expertise to govern the declassification government elected and held by the entire government. As h such, order mandates negate consequences and distract fromha our court intelligence sources of activities. Also in conflict with contrary to the organized constitution is a smaller integration body. Rather than large operational organization. Legislation to likelihood of success do not rest with one agency. Any government must address the inequities of the individual experiences and Inherent Authority over the classifiedd information. This is a with the concerns outlined regarding the wd. A. Role, possibly the denies not wellsuited to Share Committee overseeing governmentwide declassification goforts. While the further welcome further discussions on declassification programs and technology, they recommend the Committee Also meets with agencies with long standing defense occasion programs. Such as deal e andam states. In the midst of discussion about deep classifications, we must not read. [inaudible]. As i mentioned previously the overall volume of information required for declassification review. Is going. With such a flood of information with the it, required to do with the growing volumes digital age. Along with many years worth of existing holdings that may hold valuable insights. Ta there are opportunities such as Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning to all declassification specials. In forming this technology would produce laborintensive steps. Supportnt consistency and contrs during the review process and possibly identified since his sources and methods. However its important to note that technology is nonsexist in prehuman expertise and information always routinely validating theer technology will always be necessary. Finally, ordination on declassification efforts throughout the u. S. Government will require some think that has been extremely difficult to do. Even within the much Smaller Group of the ic. Get all deep classifications of stakeholders in the same ic systems and platforms, so that coordination can occur smoothly and securely. Most agency have their own individual systems. Bringing these networks together beyond the level of exchanging emails would prove to be a Monumental Task and require significant resources to deliver the proper security and even a greater level of effort needed to accomplish similar goals throughout the u. S. Government. By the continued to work diligently, consistency and review process, stating that processes the simply would not work. The challenge is to reform our misprint is organized agrees the need to reform cannot be ignored. [inaudible]. Any obstacles to make it for the declassification we work forward to working with the committee. In ways that we can have meaningful reformul for unit members of this committee, thank you for your time. An intention on this very important topic. Look forward to you questions. Thank you. Thank you. I want to thank you for the invitation to testify that this new usually neglected issue. And declassification systems. I would also like to think in this assistance granite im speaking to you today on the declassification board. In my views of our members. Our staff previously provided much more detailed statements. [inaudible]. The importance of declassification in a democracy in our nation security. In 2000. And recognize the role that they play and should play. And improving the health of the National Securities declassification systems for making recommendations. Were gratified listen senator brandon and wyden, the declassification of 2020. Many recommendations, entitled digital age and United States tedeclassification systems. [inaudible]. Were all full also grateful for the passing of this legislation. In looking forward to continuing this on the imperative information. On theca declassification syste. Over the past 12 years read these reports documents and challenges recommending new policies for the systems. In the declassification and declassification systems is imperative. Is a necessity for National Security and democracy effectively in the digital age. In 2008, the progress is not invested more integrated Information Technology in the classification and declassification processes. We purposely set of decided her most recent answers as a roadmap for the government to overcome individual agency in action. [inaudible]. And we have a governmentwide solution. We stress the critical importance of sustained leadership in driving change. By heavy seniorlevel executive agent oversee these reforms. We filled and integrated Systems Approach would share the ability to offer effective use of advanced technologies related to solutions to declassify large volumes. Our recommendation along with theco administrations modernization. Across agencies to improve performance and reduce cost per unit they align with the denies 2019 National Strategy using and doing things differently. And recommendations to reform the United States government share. And operations for cyberspace. There is widespread agreement that the declassification systems at a breaking point. Simply cannot effectively handle the volume of digital data generated every day. Cannot handle the volume requiring for the review read declassification helices remain much the same from what they were when they were first developed in a narrow when they were put on paper and securely placed. Without reform, i will share one example. In 2012, one intelligence agency, estimated and created consciously one classified data every 18 months. This is the equivalent of approximately 1 trillion pieces of paper. This agency estimated that using current declassification review processes, would take 2 million employees, 20 years to do this information. This is Just One Agency eight years ago. The problem not only growing exponentially since 2012. Just as it has over classification is getting worse and having current National Security operations. [inaudible]. Testifying the lt. General james, nominee to lead this command testified that over classification is making it more support. For us to this example of classification not only affects the operations and conditions that can lead to duplication and limited innovation and Technical Support and reduce technologies. And it could aid agencies. They must reevaluate. For example, the National Intelligence agency, created and consolidated security guides. [inaudible]. Were processes, uses technology to automate decisions. And ensures the decisions align with the needs. Policy modernization enter Agency Integration and Technology Use are critical security of our nation. Technology such as Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning is revolutionizing things. They can and must be used revolutionize the classified data. Conveys into a federated system. First executive agent has the authority to oversee implementation of new policies and processes across the agencies including guidance and the standards that begin exing class agents. The executive Agent Authority to direct and organize research with technology solutions. And offer the enterprise system and coordinate technological acquisition. Abu believed the old united strategically empowered coordination of executive agent. The od and i has the experience, within 17 organizations to comprise intelligent committee. Odeon eyes a proven leader in developing, implementing and managing Technological Solutions and acquisitions are support visions and operations across agencies. That led to the development of deployment of the Intelligence Community Information Technology the. And it manages the joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications but odeon eyes leader overseeing research and technology, Artificial Intelligence and other Machine Learning technologies. Because leverage the Intelligence Advanced Research projects agency, National Security agencies, Central Intelligence agency, other Intelligence Committee agencies and other private sector partners. Lastly is the statute to bring about change for 2019 recognize the leadership role and gain the government to do things differently by increasing integration and coordination, bolstering innovation and increasing transparency. We felt od and i was the clear choice to serve as executive agent. Odeon eyes leadership in establishing a common it also provide opportunities to gain efficiencies. Support missions and increase cost savings by expanding the it infrastructure, already in place to improve classification declassification. The system can known to keep pace with what was 25 years ago and the exponential growth of official data will cause it to collapse without radical change. The impact of the reform classification declassification system will be felt widely. On democracy and national. We authorize five short recommendations and solutions for this challenge theyve not yet led to a coordinated government effort to rethink what classification declassification means in the digital age printout impacts the National Security and how it impacts a democracy. Our border means hopeful the changes coming. Set a bill 1790 last year requires a department of defense report to congress on plans to intimate technologies and declassification processes bd what is doing to declassification what backlogs. The system will not work with digital age. I appreciate the od and i represent statement that the system is outdated. T recognizing that there is a problem of s the step forward. We should support the upcoming legislation we are grateful for this committee for holding an issue on this hearing predicts are also important steps forwar forward. Her important steps will each reform. The governor sardi modern 90s Information Technologies policies and practices. He is reforming acquisition policies and practices for efficiency produce intimating the use advanced technology across agencies to address mission imperative spread recommendations and a vision report, either within the branch of the legislation of the next the corn to dni, its needed experience and expertise. Will facilitate the development of a federated Systems Approach across agencies. Will facilitate Information Technology in the new classification and declassification processes. Let me express my appreciation to the committee forle addressing this critically important topic. Modernizing the classification, declassification is important for the toy First Century National Security and it is important for transport pearcy and democracy by the time for actionow is now, the government must be and to move beyond too costly or some other agency should be responsible for report on the opportunity for reform and possible solutions for the government to engage with stakeholders, truly investing the challenges identify solutions andol implement them. Thank you again for interest in your support. I would of course answer your questions and continue this discussion. Thank you both for being her here. The vice chairman 20 of beaufort im going to go as soon as he comes back. So ive just arrived. So senator blunt you are next, are you ready . X yes i am, chairman, thanks for letting me go part of a couple of questions. You know, clearly as my former colleague, congressman tierney mentioned in his remarks, congress has asked the old dni to come back with a plan on classification. We all believe that we over classified now. I think that is more likely than not the default position. If you dont have a lot of time to think about the thing you are classifying, then decide there may be something that may possibly be classified at a higher level. It goes there. And it goes there for a long time. So i dont know how much of that we need to establish here. We need to get back toward the classification is as open as possible and available in the future, as quickly as possible. I would say a question for mr. Cosh, the pentagon leaders themselves are pushing very aggressively for this. The secretary of the air force, secretary barrett, general haydn the vice chair at the joint chiefs of staff have pointed out how hard it is to make the case publicly. Without access to information that is a widely available now, particularly the overhead architecture information, so much of it is virtually available at the commercial level if not absolutely available at the commercial level. And to make the case for state commands, the senator and i both serve on the defense appropriate in committee, his challenge as there are things that that committee needs to know that truly are not at the intel a level, but are at a level where members of congress should have more access to them than they have now. So i guess the question, is what kinds of things would make it easier to explain the needs of Space Command and other defense needs if they were classified at a level beyond the likely current classification level . Thank you center for the question i think i can speak intelligently what Space Command, space force with the equity i can speak for the i see what they are doing. But if you are concerned about how agencies of over classified things i can share that concern with you. And you have to understand that we are collectively working on updating our security classification guides to be more tailored for very specific information so derivative classifications are not shared points quote secret level when there is a secret question prove theres better training for our workforce. And i have utmost confidence that we will get to a point were over classification will not be an issue Going Forward. Will i hope so. I guess again, part of my question was, there is so much that is available at the commercial level now classifying government documents that are widely available and almost the level wewe have them. But i think people are reluctant if it is a a classified document to use it. And often dont have the time to go somewhere else to find it. So, a lot of people have it during the covid. Comment really figured out that there is lots of unclassified material that they can access from home. Some agencies better prepared than others to work and that unclassified space. But given your d declassification background, what have you done to assist the various i see agencies as to how they could use more unclassified documents during the time that they were working remotely . I think that would also be a question, for you mr. Koch. Center to think of for the question for you to be honest, i have not been personally involved with that as you know the i see works at the classified level the vast majority of the time. So it not only comment during covid but precovid. It is incredibly difficult for any officer in the i see to work in an unclassified setting when they deal with classified material. Do not have people working from home in anom unclassified setting in the time that the headquarters was man down . No, we have had people working from home. Cant have them working any declassification initiatives or request for n n a i guess im not making the case here. The case is, a lot of people have found a way to use d classified commercially available material that was allowed them to most of what theyst were doing with the classified material. I guess your answer is youve given no advice. John on the move toward reclassification from your oversight, you are looking at that, what have you seen your most encouraged about as we tried to get our hands around this whole issue of over classifying . Congressman. Im sorry. Center what we have seen is awe lack of ability to work across the agencies to apply standards for that. Think that goes back in the form of lack of leadership. We are not asking that the od and i actually go in there and tell people what they are going to classify or not classified, but we need somebody to make sure everybody is working on updating those making sure they are pretty seems to just be saying its too expensive or its too much for us to do. In fact its got to be done and its incredibly expensive to not have it done the senator water indicated in senator white after that. Some 18 plus billion dollars of year being spano we are not on top of the issues here. So i think we need the leadership. And we need a set of standards that will take care make as much as can be done will still leaving the individual agency the ability to take care. Thank you congressman. [inaudible] thank you, senator. I think as chairman rubio indicated i understand were doing at this time by seniority. Seal be right after. Okay. I would defer to senator feinstein. I am still taking my time. [laughter] spent while the door time will take it back. [laughter] s center feinstein i would yield. Worn gentlemen there is a lot of detail here. Pull usld sort of back to a 30,000 foot level or above, i am not really sure there is a common understanding about the problem we arem trying to solve both through the classification system and the declassification system. I start from the premise of Public Information should be available unless there is a good reason not to makeot it available im told that about 4 Million People with security clearances in the United States. And it seems to me that not only do we over classify there is such, so burdensome to come up with a method of declassification that it simply we need to sort of think over again what is the goal here . We all understand being consumers of classified information protecting sources and methods . Just like under the freedom of information act, it is too easy forgo government officials to hide their mistakes to prevent public scrutiny and accountability for their actions on behalf of the taxpayer. And i wonder, maybe i can start with you mr. Tierney. I would like to get a little bit of your perspective and feedback about how we should conceptualize the problem we are trying to solve here. And how do we reconcile that with another important lot which is the freedom ofo information act with the presumption of openness along with pretty clear criteria that are applied to keep it secret or keep it in the hands of the government rather than to make it available. To think that is a fair sort of contrast to make . Should both systems refocus on the same goal . Thats a tough question or senator. On the same frustrations when i was on the Intelligence Committee in the house and the oversight sometimes you do get the notion of i dont have the magic bullet on that and i dont think they do either something has to be done across agencies and eats and leadership. Somebody has a take charge and say this is a problem and we are going to get it working group together. Its the one reason we have the executive committee working with the executive agent in our recommendations. Lets identifying what is the glitch its over classifying things for it and what setting standards allow people to apply them readily, so we dont get into that situation. T i think it will be a decision that the communities make working together and the congress that will have to assess and make sure they think they are pro put it with the executive on that. We dont have the magic bullet cut classify or not classify another. But nobody seems to be doingin it yet. And nobody seems to really be pushing down on the pedal to make sure they do. That is with the lack of leadership comes in on that. By its essential sum and lead the project. Thank you for your answer. I am wondering, is a former member of congress, do you see this as a legislative branch, responsibility for identifying what information is classified or not or exclusively as the jet executive Branch Decision . Think theres an oversight role to play on that. Think initially, and particularly within the Intelligence Community, an executive situation think congress hasnt oversight to make sure its overly broad and deserves the underlying purpose of making sure theres transparency in the public does get as if fault mechanism those things that should not absolutely be classified. While there can be leeway on that and be very active in mega sure this moves forward, make sure theres oversight to be done properly and that classification does not continue tofi be over broadly application. And again, mr. Tierney have you seen a construct or reform in this area in regard to classification system that you think is useful or something that gets it right . Or simply an absence of proposals that would help us get our arms around t that . Suspect classifications versus items it shouldnt be classified i dont think ive seen a construct on that i would check with the other Board Members as if they have or not. Theres leadership in agencies that there sure people are moving toward that goal and then working together to make sure their standard application is possible. Thats working amongst the 17 agencies in the Intelligence Community. And that of course reaches outside of the Intelligence Community where people have access to that information on the need to know. In that sense, there is a good example of how you can provide the leadership and work across agencies outside of the intelligence communities the actual construct of classification during dont classify something i have not seen that yet. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman yield backtrace vectors five minutes left on the vote if youve not voted on the last one. Mr. Tierney let me start with you. Lets get with both of you on this one. This committee has wrestled for two or three years of what i think is an and analogized problem. And that is security clearance reform. And work closely with the administration took the backlog onni clearances down from over 700,000 to about 200,000. Still waiting for the trust workforce 2. 0. I guess im interested in both of the witnesses. One is that a good are the Lessons Learned from security clearance reform, you may not be as familiar, like have your comment there. And what does a declassification system look like in a digital era, since i think we all agree we still kind of. [inaudible] with either one of the witnesses, start with mr. Tierney. Declassification looks like again the need for technologies that identified in efforts of Machine Learning can be put together to work on that. Again thats taken some with experience in working with that. In terms of this idea. And i think, that is going to be very important. Which are my me the first part of question senator . You may not be as familiar with this part. We work closely with the administration on a security clearance reform process. It has taken us three years but it seems like there were at least some similarities with that type of problem if you had observed any of that . No im not familiar with that. I will make a note that i had security clearance serving on the Intelligence Committee in the house. When i went to work on this board, they said it was a process and that was what, three years ago . And laster they finished it. There is reform. I is not much out in your case great mr. Cost you and have questions or analogy and what should would it declassification system what do the metrics in a digital age . Short senator. First, let me say. [inaudible] with your classification reform. But the issues in the processes for security clearance investigation are fairly uniform. When your time but their classifications of the system, they are not. Because oca is delicate to departments and agencies on thent president. Each agency develops is onl owned security classification guide. It is not the same as dealing with security ea processes and issues. On the digital front, i know that there are multiple working groups at the National Level inter agency level that are already dealing with these issues and have been over the past fewt years. And we are continuing to do tha that. Hopefully after covid finishes we can get back to doing that business. I will pointe out, the director already has the authority that the pid suggested hoping will take over for declassification. Typically it is directed by the president to establish standards for classification declassification marketing principles. And they should be the ones in our view that should continue doing those things in this areaa,. And not just shift those responsibilities to another agency. Will talk about a digital era, isnt there almost an immediate bias towards over classification when youve got so much Digital Product to this point . Is or any kind of guidepost you would give us on that how you would stop that . If so much dated this point its just easier to to classify that even try too sort through . Will senator, that is a hard question to answer. There is just so much out there. When you have humans making their own decisions on whether something should be classified or not, they are basing their decision on their own experienc experience. As well as following specific security classification guidance on what should and should not be classified. However, i do agree that we should get automation in this area. Which would definitely cut down the over classification issues that weve seen over the years. I know that there are some efforts underway throughout the i see to come up with some kind of program that can help mitigate as theyre typing something that immediately recognizes as classified or not. And therefore mark a document for you, so you dont have to do it yourself. I dont think that we are there yet. We have definitely made some progress in that area. I do think ai will be important tool. When senator rubio is make his opening comments he singled out one of our newer members as the philosopher scholar. Some may be senator sasse has the answers and he is up next free its unfortunate because it insult but thank you for Vice President for cheering today. Senator wyden thank you for your work on this in senator moran for your earlier statement. Forur the folks, thanks for your work and airy that sounds like a niche topic but i think it is incredibly important. I want to associate self with comments on both sides of the aisle today on the risks of over classification. Because it fosters public distress. For allal of us, all 15 of us who serve on this committee, really appreciate the hardworking men and women who often labor in the shadows. And even though families dont get to know what they ares, goinghe through and all the suffering and sacrifices they do. We find the classified product to get on a regular basis. But i would push back a tiny littleny bit, against her last answer. You said people are making decisions about classification based on their individual histories and assessments. I think in addition, they make decisions based on the structural incentives in the system. Where if you over classify something, there is no way you get in trouble. If you under classify something, you can get in trouble. So the easy move, its not to sayot the people doing this work are lazy, its that they are riskaverse because all humans are prayed the easy move is to over classify when you cant decide what to do. And so one of the things i think mr. Tierney, gore group is done so much important work on, is just providing some simple ways for us to get our hands around for the broader public to understand what problem we are dealing with. So one pc report talks about how we spent about 18 billion a year on these classification clash declassification that are not really working. We have millions of pages of documents but even from the Reagan Administration. I would say as a historian, not just a regular consumer of intelligence for it as a historian its really important for the public and scholars to be able to get access to all this information. An ascentin of david wrestling around the hard dividing light about what should and shouldnt be declassify, think what your report showed was that millions of pages of documents in the Reagan Administration that should have already been declassified have not been, simply because they require manual review. I think the bias for these older documents should be an inertia motion passed for declassification for their manual review is required than these documents dont declassify. The incentives are rewarded to being over classify. Historians and other scholars cant get access to themol for this not have scrutiny and that fosters public distress. So mr. Tierney i would like to ask you, first of all thank you again for all of your hard work in this state. But as you arrived at the recommendation to make the od and icom in the dni executive agent for classification could you walk us to the process of how you landed there . What other alternatives you considered . And how you decided that the dni is best or least bad agent to be responsible here . Select that was directed at congressman tierney. Thank you for much senator. The prioritization of declassification is very pledge brought that up. The last report remade recommended that the National Declassification Center and the agencies and public disgust which should be reviewed sooner than others. In a sense theres insight into what the public and other agencies want to see. In those records and have no interest in seeing very or veryry little interest in seeing for that prioritization allow for coordinated gun wide approach based on theed record most sought in significance to the] public. Those things are certainly important. And for the visual, advanced technology would help the declassification effort. It is possible is going on now 18 and half billion dollars are already being spent on an annual basis on b that. Its more than a little crazy on that. This 46 million pages in 2017 they were declassified in each page cost about 2. 25. Page. So we went there process of recognizing just what the expense was to the citizens and taxpayers. And the need for prioritization for it and we kept coming back to the notion that there needed to be somebody driving the trainin prayed there needed to be leadership here. Because everybody recognizes the problem. Everyone admits right away that needs to have some technology involved in it. Different infrastructure. Light needs to have action taken cooperatively among agents, all those things but nobody seems to want to take the charge on it. We didnt at first look at the group. And decided whether or not that would be a group that would be appropriate to take it. But unfortunately, is only 18 people. And it has a huge responsibility to do many other things that the executive orders have put on it. And its assembled them and support several executive orders including taking order 1356 from classified National Security information, 12829, the National Industrial security program, 3549 declassified program with the state local project and so it and so on, you could see the issue on that with only 18 people and a budget of three to 60 million this year old 40 million increased over the past five years. So we really couldnt buy process of elimination find an agency that would have the power and respect in the community. And that came to the oh dnis office for the do command the respect and the authority needed for somebody to say to the other agencies you need to address this problem for you need to focus on it and get an answer. You need to work with us on identifying technologies. You need to work with us on getting answers about the Machine Learning. You need somebody who is had experience. We did not have any other organization but the kind of experience they had. Even with the agency the work they have done, solve some of the problems are mentioned by the senators earlier on that. A process of elimination having the authority to proceed by other people to do that. Those things are very important and say this is what we need we need strict congressman im gonna cut in here just to say thank you. Because we are at time. I know i need to get the microphone back to the chairman, mr. Chairman i would note for the record that im going to follow up with a letter as well ask him how the Pilot Project is going with the applied research lab at the university of test and turn texas and austin which is try to figure how to use Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning to expedite the declassification process. But ill do that by letter. Thank you. Senator wyden. Thank you very much mr. Chairman. Her colleagues who have just joined us i want to mention one issue that the chairman raised and i also did some research on during the break. The Reform Center that we are urging does not put the dni in charge of deciding what dod secrets arere declassified. The same principle is true of the department of energy secrets. State department secrets, those agencies are going to decide what they are going to declassify. What our bill is about is modernizing the system for declassified information that these agencies would use and have alreadylr determined are no longer classified. That is an important issue. And i think were going to have a dialogue on this. Set senator moran and i very much want to work to develop a Bipartisan Coalition in this committee to modernize the bureaucracy. And we proposed an approach we think it makes some sense. So i would like to start by having mr. Tierney, because he has a chance to respond. I think it would be good to have mr. Tierney paint for the committee a picture of the declassification process, five, ten years from now. If this committee cant get that Bipartisan Coalition for reform. What would be withheld from the American People simply because we did not get a Bipartisan Coalition to modernize the bureaucracy . Congressman . Center certainly wont be a pretty picture i can tell you that. We dont now now how many classified documents agencies create. If we cant tell exactly how big the problem is. We do know the figure continues to grow exponentially. I can tell you one example in my remarks, while snow the government will also be able to declassify with digital data the ability to just arent there. Here is an example of body of records that has or will have significant historical interest. The National Archives receipt all the president ial records at the conclusion of each administration. The succession between terabytes, that of the stand at the Ronald Reagan and hiv bushh administration. The volume increase to 4 terabytes in the clinton administration. Mostly emails and structured data. In the archives we see 80 terabytes on the bush of menstruation eight years later. So the succession 250 terabytes of data from the obama administration. Including complex waves structured and unstructured data. See how exponentially it grows in that one single category. You take that and you blow it out amongst all the different agencies and aspects and you get a picture of how ugly it is going to be, years down the road when you dont have Machine Learning pretty dont have the technology involved. You dont have some sort of automated effort. Now, on the question of essentially how you handled this. How important, this was very important to senator moran and i, is it that declassification reform not beat stove pipe in different parts of the u. S. Government . Well, its very important how to encapsulate that is difficult. I mean you have so many different agencies classifying in so many different aspects and ways now. That it is almost impossible for people to do it. I mean there is one example that was mentioned earlier when they declassified a document thats also involved with equities of another agency. For doing it manually and have to get it from one point to another. Theres no ability technologically to get it to a point to another pretty physically has to be brought from one place to another or seven has a visit and review the document settings to do it. So gets completely out of control. I think it just moves on from there. One last question if i might, so basically this is a common refrain said well, lets look somewhere else to important job of really cleaning up declassification. And he seems to think that ndc the national. [inaudible] our able to play the role to really bring about declassification reform. We were concerned that these offices dont really have the kind of bureaucratic help. The kind of bureaucratic muscle to actually get federal agencies to integrate and modernize the deep laughing and trent declassification systems. What is your take onat that . s faculty exactly that. They can do either way. You can say why does dni choose Service Agents or you can the information is not bestbe suited to serve. When it comes right down to it, what is the Authority Issue point out. Ive heard wonderful things that iso do. I want to thank them for the work they do pray they dont have the kind of authority and weight that the oh dni does when it says something should be done or people should Work Together and get it done a certain time and in a certain way. It ist unequipped in that manner. Also as i mentioned, it gets quite heavy workload for 18 staff people and a budget that is shrinking instead of growing. Do,things it cant doesnt have the Technical Expertise though dni has pretty doesnt have access advanced technology thats arty in place in the intelligence agencies. Unlike the oh dni comic does not have the expense of developing or deploying or managing live multi agency secured based enterprise the ici system i mention, that is run by though dni. Unlike od knight does not have experience managing a secure communications network. In fact the National Archives have two terminals in the entire agency. It does not have the experience and focus on protecting sources and methods but something the oh dnis highlighted test in 2018. And for some reason i would think oh dni would want to take on the leadership role so it does have a good way of protecting methods in doing that. Unlike the dni the director does not have the same stature ability for those agencies as a mention on those policies. Probably in conflict with their main oversight commission. Weve had discussions with archive leaders, historians, researchers, civil societies, organizations, records managers and other agencies pay fromch the National Archives is not the appropriate organization to serve as executive agent or to lead the reform of classification declassification. We have tried have discussions of this with the folks at the wioh dnis office and we have not been successful to date. We are open to more discussions with them on that. All the things i mentioned, though dni does hamper it im not o aware of other agencies that have an accent oh dni does. Thank you welliver my time. Mr. Chairman and vice chairman warner, thank you both very much rescheduling this hearing and giving senator moran denied this opportunity. Important topic glad we were able to get to in an open setting. N thank you chairman. Representative welcome, want to thank not only you but your fellow Public Interest declassification Board Members for your most recent report on modernizing our declassification system. I really worry, very much about the stakes off in action in this field. And as you mention, a lack of reform means you will continue to spend an outrageous amount money, 18 more for a 50s era classification system. So it represented tierney, while many see that modernization is too costly, i think there is clearly a risk of not making these kinds of investments now in a modernized system will bring cost savings down theni roa road. What investments do you think are needed to modernize declassification. And do you think there is potential for actual cost savings in the future based on a more streamlined Technology Dependent modernized system . Thank you, senator, nice to see you as well. I do believe, we, the board least significant savings. Eight halfMillion Dollars may actually underestimate the American Public at the present time. We need to evaluate thoset costs. Privacy cant afford if we continue on the way we are goin going. We need to i would say get Information Technology thats going to be somewhat costly. You need to have a lot moreit Machine Learning and the Research Ability on that. There are some we can learn from. Those are going to be costly. But they are onetime costs maintenance costs Going Forward versus is continually rolling costs and the cost of not getting the information out for use whether Space Command or other Government Agencies, or actions the public needs to kno know. So the cost is in dollars and inability to access is huge. And while the outlay on this technologies and Machine Learning aspects may be significant initially, i think over time theyll be a big costly run that. The Committee Really likes using Machine Learning, using Artificial Intelligence of theha same set of eyes dont have to go over the same product over and over all day long. Because humans dont do wellin that environment. And so weeding that down to a few documents that need to be looked at is something we need to look in our entirety to change how we evaluate intelligence products. How can we scale up those pilots that you mentioned in ai and Machine Learning . And begin to take the same i guess zeal for utilizing those tools and declassification that you already see in terms of analysis of other intelligent product . If the build the experiences we have today. Im in a celica broken record. Most are within Intelligence Community. So we have to acknowledge those and learn from them and build upon them. But then we have to do it according to fashions we are not duplicating everything we do pray for not doing research twice. Ng were not giving the same technology twice or making sure we do get it its applicable and usable by everybody across the way. So that again takes leadership. And then be able to say this is what were able to do. This is a decision in that direction. We suggested the txe executive agent, we suggest of the executive committee for that. Think those areho the important factors to take into consideration and to get those types of things done in a way with cost and energy. The new space the new commander Space Command testified over classification is make itin more difficult to make its ply the war fighters. Congressman can you talk a little bit about how over classification affects operations and missions . Not just the publics right to know, but also very real daytoday risk [inaudible] i can set it apart im looking for some notes that i have on that. Its not just Lieutenant General that wants to talk about that, it was also general payton and his predecessor on that. And talk about the fact that they are just duplicating things when they shouldnt and did not need to be doing that. It has a serious effect on it. And i think those of the two best examples that we have had. Let me see, general height and was talking about just the over complication of information within the Defense Department when he says it was ubiquitous pretty said officials like so many else were worried about effect on operations as effect on costs has an effect on innovation and the ability to partner in the private sector buried all the sins are impacted. So he worries about classification limits, and especially the costly ones like the defense program. So all of those are good not just the dollar cost but the ability to partner by the administration and our ability to carry on as a government. Thank you. Senator king are you on . Is he still with this . Or senator king . Okay. I come at this with an un burdened by a great deal ofby knowledge. One question, is are we swamped by declassification because we are trying to declassify everything . Or what about a system that just said were going to work on the declassification of things that people ask for . That seems to me that cuts the universe of declassification down considerably. Or are we swamped even in terms of what people are asking for . Do you see worm going . I see what youre saying. That could always be adjusted and people take a look at. I think youre right on the money we talk about prioritization. Its one of the things we said there has to be a system put in place that prioritize what we need the Government Agencies to avoid all of the the inability to work the private center, the innovation and all that. And that with the public with historians, congress, the public at large and take those to what people want and put them at the top of the list and work it down for those things the ones that are not be assigned at all. So recommend another idea along that same line as to say everything is going to be declassified after five years or ten years or whatever. And that is the fallback. And then the burden is on the agencies to reclassify if they feel it is justified. And other were to be an automatic declassification. And again, the burden would be on those who did declassification in the first place to say yeah, we got to keep is classified. Or we will let it go along with the other million pages. I will leave it to my friends at od and i to respond with what he think is the obvious intelligent reaction to that innct terms of presently lack of manpower and technology to actually make the review that would be required to see if they should continue the declassification there at orf that should be released on that. I know we just went to the candy papers for instance it was 50 years after the incident on that. Theres a great deal of discussion is what would releaset sources and procedures and things of that nature on that. That was after that many years. That was a great way to do it. It was presumed to have the ability to do it and protect it. In my limited time, you not surprise and said not me, i dont want to be it. But if not the dni, then who . My experience in management is you need somebody who iss responsible like my management principle is. [inaudible] one of the problems with this whole issue it is scattered through out the government. There is nobody that pinky held accountable for backlogs andd delays. So if you dont think it should be the dni, who do you think it should be . Back thank you center for the question. So as i mentioned previously, the president has already authorized to coordinate across the executive branch on all declassification activities. They been given authority to streamline the classification processes as well as to prioritize what should and should not be reviewed by agencies. I think they should continue that process. We been working at multiple groups for the past few years to specifically address that prioritization issues so we can get down to exactly what the American People really want to know as opposed to reviewing in some meaningless information no one cares about and are agencies putting so much time reviewing the firstsp place. Select thank you very much, thank you, mr. Chairman. I get it which express my appreciation for leading on this issue. In thank youan for holding the steering. Select some people say you have a branding the cigar we cant see outside of camera. Im somewhere in the bowels of the capital in an undisclosed location basement i did not see any smoke i defended joy wanted say that. Select thank you. Is there anybody elsere online . My the last one . Okay a lot of topics have been covered by want to get a couple things. Congressman if i could first, just briefly ask you to explain the methodology of the report. I did not personally reviewed by our staff looked at it again last night pretty its not outlined and documented. Im curious, how did you interview . The dataor was gathered House Incorporated in the recommendation . Look like a lot of work so im just curious. It was a tremendous amount of work. And our staff is been tremendous on that printer be happy to respond to any real longer list of who exactly spoke to. [inaudible] what im getting at, you understand the moment, were trying to understand whate the reform would cost. Im not sin because we shouldnt do it. Think from what youve heard here today, there is broadbased support for the idea that the system we have in place now is confederated, broken and needs to be modernized. These are brought into the 21st century fully utilize all the technology that sought now to us. It seems to me theres not much controversy around the idea there needs to be in executive agent. Someone who has ball control on this in terms of overseeing strategies in implementing the plan, driving the investment and rethink the sort of debate on the topic is who is going to be that agent that sort of runs it . And it would a. That in order to design and implement and drive the investment you need a pretty substantial investmentt above what we are doing now. At least at the design phase. There are a lot of pieces to move in. Guess the question i would have is given obviously the resources that we have now or not, think the answers probably would be an easy yes by the resources you have now she would not be enough to drive this . It would require Additional Resources if you were in fact task with this at your office was tasked with this . Center it yes. Ive absolutely say yes, correctly because congressman, the estimate of 3. 9 billion for 2017 was at the cost for the Current System . And does that include the cost for themb documents for release or did that reflect the current classifiede system . That is the covered maintenance of the system a half Million Dollars on that. It was kind of what would be needed to get the od and i to be able to do those types of things that were requested to get done. Just as broadly address some of the issue and that, we had discussions with National Archive leaders, a lot of them youll see we give you the information, stories, researchers Civil Society organizations record managers and other agencies. If i the mouth oh dni office and others will meet with them more once we hear the resistance on that. Were still remaining willing to do that were able to make the comparison as to why National Declassification Center, we were the appropriate ones for lack of experience, lack of resources, lack of authority, all those things od and igs had. Were happy to go into more detail with them. Okay. Its not because it wouldnt be money or an investment worth spending, its on a plugandplay were we could use them, no matter who gets this assignment theyre going to need assignments with the front end on hopefully it that point front End Investments in the maintenance on the back end. And just in terms of the notion that, i went to accurate represent what the oh dnis position is on this recommendation. Its not that you are against reform against the notion of executive agent, it is a level of discomfort in particular with designing a system that other agencies you dont have authority over, would have to abide by. U even if you are not making specific decisions you are designing a system they would have to live by. Is that an accurate assessment of some of the angst are some of the resistance to this recommendation of it being the executive agent . Select yes senator that is correct. Think part of the point is, just simply transferring the authorities that already exist those to another agency, just does not make sense. If the issue is resources and money, why cant those agencies be given the same type of resources thats being proposed for the dni . Dont think we are actually suggesting its needed. We are agreeing that the significant reform is necessary in this area. We have been working towards that multiplein working groups in executive branch. I think will be happy to do that again. Things oh dni has. The National Declassification Center dont have in terms of experience in deploying multi agencies enterprise systems, deploying communications, protecting sources and methods, doesnt have the ability to corral agencies. Also has an Oversight Mission that will be in direct conflict with this. Its not authorized by the president to do this. Or the national declassification with the national guard. So some executive angel had to be given we think it should be the one with the experience andth the authority and the capabilities that have been exercised and shown to be so effective in other settings outside of the Intelligence Community. Some of them worldwide. Yeah, i think what it boils down to isde widespread agreement needs to be reformed. Someone needs to be in charge of thehe reform. And really, the question we have to work through, is who is that right entity to be responsible for designing, implementing, and maintaining it on an ongoing basis . And from us an internal perspective some jurisdictional grounds because it touches on state department or dod trade this communitys not going to be the sole places could have oversight. But look, it is a topic that is you seen, there is strong bipartisan, widespread support for subsistent pursuing. This report and the bill that has been filed certainly gives us a baseline upon which to work. I hope we flushed out a little bit through this public hearing today, some of the remaining outstanding topics about where our options are pretty want to thank both of you for being patient with this. Contributing today to this hearing. It is one we have been trying to get on the books for a couple of months for it im glad theyre able to. And again i think you both for your being willing to come online and be with us as a part today. [inaudible] there may be some followup questions that members might send in writing. We would ask that if we have some of those if you would help get it answered. Us some people may not have been able to come over today. Again i want to thank you for being a part of this and for everyone who came. And with that or hearing adjourned. Thank you. [background noises] [background noises] [backgroundd noises] [background noises] [background noises] [background noises] [background noises] [background noises] live coverage of the 19th anniversary of the 911 terrorist attack on cspan, cspan2 and cspan free, online at cspan. Org or listen live with the free cspan radio app. Friday the house Intelligence Committee holds a hearing on the u. S. Saudi arabia security and intelligence relationship. Watch live at 12 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan, online cspan. Org or listen live on the free cspan radio app. Book tv on cspan2 has top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Coming up this weekend, saturday at 8 40 p. M. Eastern former policy advisor for President Trumps 2016 president ial campaign on his book, abuse and power. How in innocent american who was framed ten and an attempted coup against the president. Sunday at 7 40 p. M. Eastern cnn worldwide chief media correspondent, hoax donald trump, fox news and the dangerous distortion of truth. And 9 00 p. M. On after words Sarah Huckabee sanders former White House Press secretary for President Trump on her book, speaking for myself faith, freedom and our fight for our lives inside the trunk white house. She is interviewed by bloomberg news, White House Reporter jennifer jacobs. Watch book tv on cspan2 this weekend. This week on q a richard horton, editorinchief of the uk based medical journal atlantic discusses his book, the covid19 catastrophe. We are all going to have to figure out a way to get past this acute phase. Now, we will but it will take some years though. There are two ways to help reduce the risk and one is a vaccine and thats only part of the solution but the other is of course this idea that came up which was absolutely not the way to manage it but in the long term its very important and that is called [inaudible]. The more people who build up immunity to the virus that will then reduce the possibility of there being this academic or pandemic outbreak but that will not happen this year or next year or the year after. It will take several years for a vaccine to take place. We do have to be in this for the longhaul. Richard richard horton, sunday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspans q a. We are now joined by doctor william moss executive director of the International Vaccine access