The author of the New York Times bestseller also a visiting professor at columbia university. Featured in the new yorker, the New York Times, the atlantic, rolling stone, esquire and the guardian among many others. Joining the conversation born and raised in jackson mississippi, professor of english and creative writing at the university and author of the novel Long Division and a collection of essays how to slowly kill your self and others in america. Also the author of the memoir heavy, shortlisted for the Andrew Carnegie medal and named one of the best books by the New York Times, publishers weekly, npr, library journal, the washington post, entertainment weekly, the San Francisco chronicle and the New York Times critics. Without further ado please join me in welcoming morgan and kiese laymon. Hello, everyone. Im so excited to talk to you about this book. I wish that we could i really wish we could have done this down south. Guest i know. Two years ago i was in conversation with you at the brooklyn public library. You helped me. I lived in new york state and for like 15 years when i went to the city it was always the first time. I wouldnt feel right and then people would start showing their love. Lets talk about wandering in strange lands. Such a departure from what you did before and i am amazed. Can you talk to me not just about how you pulled it off but i think a lot of times we dont talk enough about the gumption. What gave you the gumption and audacity to even think about how to pull this off . I love when others say audacity. Its just wonderful. There were many times throughout this book i thought i wasnt going to make it. I sat right here on this couch quiet because i didnt think i could turn around. There was no conclusion i could work with and i thought they were going to cancel my book deal. Its not going to work. For those of you that are not familiar with my career, i graduated at a Top University and i was trying to become an editor at a Publishing House and at an entrylevel job. I wasnt even making it from the first or second round. I was really devastated. The summer of 2014 i saw so many people and i thought maybe that is my endpoint. For most women of color, they found that entry point through essays and sometimes they are devalued as an art form so i am not trying to shame but i wrote the first book to give it back as a black woman and also because people show the world you can be a black woman writing about this and that paved the way. But ive always been a curious person and in very close to my family and there were all of these Different Things we did and i was so curious about them and i wanted to investigate that so ive always been interested in history. I go down so many rabbit holes but ive had it for years. I love how the book is wandering in strange lands and how there is so much wondering so its almost like wondering, your father and his people led you to this journey, where you come down south in new york and are trying to find a part of you. I wonder if its fair to say you were going to look for a part of you or look for a part of your father. Guest absolutely. Im going to keep it real. I was insecure about where i fit into my fathers life. My mother and father were not together anymore and it wasnt as i said i didnt even know i had three other sisters. Okay so now where do i fit in this family tree. So when i wrote this book which is where my fathers line is originally from, it was so healing for me. Writing the book brought me closer to my father because i would walk through the land and places he hadnt even gone to himself. It was a journey not only trying to find the experiences of africanamerican history is but also to find a bit of myself, to be recognized by people, and i was and it was very healing for me. Host one thing i want to say or we get going is if you ie questions make sure you put them in the chat and illegal trade to get to them along the way. Okay, so we only get to talk maybe once or twice a year so i want to ask what questions i want to ask. What was your biggest what people call preconceived notion about the south generally and in your imagination before you came down here did you make a distinction theme North Carolina, kentucky, deep south, louisiana, mississippi, florida or was it all just south of new york . Guest judaica everything from maryland and baltimore and south. A big expanse of land that i knew very little about. Very scant knowledge. Id never been to the deep south and not sa i say that i have beo florida and georgia. But for leisure not necessarily this type of work. So yeah. The south to me even though my family comes from that part, i didnt have much. It was like a shadow of what i should have known or what was passed on to me. You know what i really wanted to ask you i wanted to know why you came back, like you went back up north. [inaudible] [laughter] you know black people if you see a white person that clicks presumably black [inaudible] like you know you want to come on down here with us. What made you come up north . The easy answer, i dont think im done with new york yet. I live in harlem and think that is one of the greatest neighborhoods still. But for example, mike ive had dreams of having a second home in louisiana where my fathers line is from. Im trying at this moment to make sure my father doesnt sell his mothers home in fayetteville North Carolina thats been in the family for 50 to 70 years in our last piece of land left in the south and im trying to make sure he doesnt sell it. So there are things happening right now. I want to create something not only for myself and the children but for the artists of the black people that are curious just like i was. I see this in the book but i wonder if you could talk with us a bit more about how coming down south not just embolden the un to meet you see and your whole family in different ways but did it make you able to see more like black southern in harlem in new york city . I could feel it. For example, i love detroit because when you meet black people, theyve got a few in a way that north and black people, although the more scattered but [inaudible] i think about chicago. If you ask where are their families from an assault, mississippi. For me its like i see the south everywhere come even if we are not there. Whether it is in the food we make, the dialect or whatever, its still there and i feel there was a quote that stuck out to me that my angelou said thats bringing people back like a siren call. This whole journey off like a siren call. One of the things you did so masterfully in the buck, you mystified independent unit demystified water and land and you did it like great writers do. The people and the characters help demystify water and land. Can you talk to the audience a bit about what they found about water and land specifically . Im so excited. So much about the buck was the unpacking a lot of my assumptions about black american identity. I didnt know there were identities under the black American Experience and so i assumed all black people were afraiareafraid of water becauses what i grew up with. Theyve been intertwined in my family for generations. My mother almost suffered a near fatal drowning accident. Our hair and clothing. But i knew that wasnt it. My mother grew up in Atlantic City and nobody knew how to swim. I wanted to take it a step further and wondered why is that the first i made the mistake because i spoke to a woman in georgia named tiffany and i said and she said that isnt true. When i did my research, she said water is the bloodline. So if the water is their bloodline for these ethnic groups that we owe so much, where did the separation occur . In many different ways the celebration of christmas. The separation happened a lot of them let their children go through the bother paper every day would be taken away. The Transatlantic Slave Trade we dont know how many enslaved africans were at the bottom of the ocean right now. Some historians say its a floating graveyard if you dont and you think about the plantation. Crocodiles and whatever could kill you while you were out there building levees. Think about those that migrated to the north, segregated schools for example. But when they started migrating in droves, then when the black people started coming in in droves people had to protect themselves from these interlopers but then again, going down to the south, you go to one of the largest islands in georgia, the water they have is full of lead and made me think of michigan. The water can constitute freedom, the ohio river that is updated pre territory and baptism, transformation. It can represent freedom and transformation and also having because they buried their people in the water because they believe people go back to africa so it represents all these things it can also represent death and disappearance. So i wanted to make sure this was the truck driver was most worried about and i told myself you better nail this because it brings up so many strong emotions and i wanted to show the complexity of what water constitutes for africanamericans that are descendents of this leave people into this decades old legacy but also epigenetic and let the water can do to our lives. Absolutely. Growing up down here, like a lot of us have grandparents and parents either died or almost five in the lakes and rivers, but the fear of all of those bodies we now are at th know arm of these leaks is one of the things that terrified us growing up and when i got to that part of the one of the things i love about what you just did if you want to experience with morgan just did, thats what the book is, it is walking with Morgan Jerkins and she researches and finds the majesty, you talk about the abundance in you and us. The internet sometimes make these kinds of books like less likely because Research People think of it is pushing clic as n google that you wrote a book about researching you and me. You wrote a book about me and his other books that these otheo say thank you for doing that. I want to make sure we get to the people that might not have actually read the book. Can we talk about and attention. There were some tense moments in the journey. Can you talk about those a bit . Where do i even start, our ancestors being alone in certain parts. I could take it wherever you want me to take it. I feel like you flipped the isolation portion. Can we talk about the attention that you feel and how the terror unveiled in ways you might not have expected. When you talk about books that may not be made like this, and i am a millennial and i know how the internet can be a great place for conversation or a terrible place. Ive said it before i know what its like to have my work taken out of context for public humiliation, not for conversation so the one thing i want to say to start this off as they say all the time openpt by ancestors and often times its the concept of a stronger than that but its interesting to me because when i hear the phrase im not by ancestors, what does that mean when we say black people are not a monolith what does that mean for black people that are trying to survive in ways that we may not see as acceptable or comfortable in the present day and so i tell people all the time im part of the Public School system is very streamlined into was the Transatlantic Slave Trade, the Civil Rights Movement and obama inspected. I was never taught that there were black slave owners. Granted they still participated but they dont like to talk about those things because it complicates the notion of whats lightness and darkness is if we are still trying to get that financial, social and capital. For me that was hard because i was taught there on the farther end of the spectrum to access the capital. Come across others participating in that they are widely off of it. Thats why i wanted to elaborate on that in the book. Like you think this makes you mad, this makes me mad, too. Right, right. As the butt of portions of the book where i didnt feel mad, but hes a complicated history that even some of the snow and live. Im from the deep mississippi but i felt like they were showing me different ways into what i consider myself. My self. I want to talk about some of the interpersonal. We talk about the nort the nortd south india to talk about interpersonal relationships. When i came up north, one of the difficulties i had this because of what they call here full training. I say hey to everybody. Im going to look back and nod at everybody. And you know, that isnt what everybody does we will just say that in new york city. Can you talk about how just the interpersonal full flavors were different or similar to what you imagine . Guest i will say this. I knew what people looked out for me in a way im not sure what happened in the north. Its like okay i want you to meet this person and a i will say this, the places i went to were very spiritually heavy even when i was making that drive back to havana night and i usually try to finish all of my work because i was a woman in the deep south, but i felt like i was protected in a way that is really hard to describe if you dont believe in the divine and spirits, but i felt it every time i got in my car, every time i finished with another person and i even had some people say to me the reason why i spoke about this if there was something about you that was genuine. Some have already been taken advantage of and were buying their lives for stories that didnt get the proper acknowledgment. I was already in a very precarious position. Thats what i was hoping we could get it to. Can you talk about how what you did necessitate ethics because you come into communities that have been mined for resources. You talk about the rules you set for yourself into the ethics you set for yourself. I told myself you are black but you dont know these people and you are going down to the south for reach out to them months before you travel in to say this isnt a ruse. Ruse. I would have it right on the table so they would see me when i turn it on and when i shut it off. The thing with ethics is you have to be very careful. Its traumatic to talk about. Anytime i had a conversation with them, a restaurant near the water, i always made sure. Theres all these Different Things. Start by asking their name. Ask about their appearance. Tell me what life is like here and maybe thats changed and then thats when the stories really start to manifest because like you mentioned i always tell my students there are many ways to enter into a story. The architecture of memory. Go through any type of window that can open and youll see the wife you are not good to get otherwise so that is what i do with a part of it is before they Start Talking to you make sure that they know you are but i also think even though i am a lot that could be part of the establishment. I lived in new york i work with a traditional publisher and fight for the publication. [inaudible] i also think that helped us i am a young woman. So im a woman, 5 feet tall and people tell me i have a very disarming smile so that is what a lot of people see. They would be liaisons with new but when you are 5 feet tall with a little recorder in front of her in baseball curse, what can i do. I know what you are saying but you feel like any people that you met some of this is the leading question that people that you met were actually still not sure how close to lift un. Guest yes, all the time. There were some older black man. Like they want to know what the information can be used for but not a Single Person i spoke to that is in my book wanted to have a pseudonym and i thought that was incredible. Any of you that bu via my blog, which i hope you do, up to the acknowledgment section. I thought matching up the book some of the people risk their lives to show these are at sta stake. So i was thankful for that. Host one of the things i was finding working on interviewing people, people have done all sorts of abusive and violent stuff but at the end of the day to make sure when you describe the youth of them know i used to wear gas. [laughter] [inaudible] [inaudible] that was hard for me is realizing. They would drive past these acres and i couldnt tell you how many trees. I didnt have the language for it. Often times i would get back home and look up pictures and had to do additional work. Co. Were the name of this work. Guest the book just came out and this version. Im interested in knowing the anxiety over this book in this moment and be the dating of books before covid19. Can you talk about that . For me, there were so many by dealing with black ancestors i just did think that it was going to come together. I didnt expect it is after the protests happened which is scary. What has been so spot on, not a lot of people know this public site if they. Write about bullying and they are not looking at me like itss is somebody that knows history. The short answer in a gemini and as long as i have a career youll see different in those files coming from my work. As long as i can get another book deal, you will see a lot of things i have to say. But for me its just because of the inability to try. So often times they want the kids to endeavor. That can calcify the solutions but to endeavor, excavate something. And i tell peopl people all thei had the privilege of having a book that allowed me this research could cost close to 10,000 to do this research. I was able to do that because i have a book deal that allowed me to do this work but it takes i wanted people to take another chance on me. I feel that any writer where dream to have in this has exceeded my expectations. To make sure people understand the political integrity of a black woman wandering. Right . That expectation is not black women or girls wander. You let people know i am wandering in a strange land but you put yourself in the title as a daughter and it sounds like you say in the book. So i am a christian a great pentecostal. Emotional and superstitious and like i said before it is heavy. Was wasted to the air and i felt that. Or through the crime of a oklahoma. There are times i should then heard for the way that was not my own nothing more than a player. If i had to do my research again i probably would have carried a weapon or carried again. To this day how did i do that i knew i was protected nobody could tell me otherwise. Host we want to make sure you get a chance to speak. So one of the things i was interested in talking about is when im in harlem i could feel the south i dont know if its a deep mississippi south but i wonder if your new york needs more black americans southern isms but could there be even more . Always there could be more i use to live on little senegal is to your nothing but french that always there needs to be more even now because of the rapid gentrification not just new york but new jersey where i am fro from, new england we always need more. Host s this is like cake. What was your mothers reaction was she apprehensive about what you would be left to reconcile. My mother said go ahead and was always supportive of our family tree. When i was born my dad called me the milkman baby i thought it was because i was light people say its because you dont know who your father is a said thats not true but then i felt shame and then he started to read Toni Morrison the milkman goes to find his roots and then when i was researching my father i learned about my earliest ancestors and had to families just like my father one side on this side of the by you and when i told my cousin she said it was definitely the milkman and then i said i am the milkman to be be my tree is complicated and beautiful altogether im lucky to have parents that supported me to this journey i reached out while i was traveling on it shows me i have just as much of a standing with my mothers family as my father i wasnt looking for reconciliation just revelation because sometimes you cant reconcile everything sometimes you may not have 100 percent of the whole truth but to have something to pass on to my own children this would be a document and a blessing. Host 50 pages in and loving it those that were based on interviews with those you spoke to before . Every single thing i said here you can look at it and you want your name published . They all looked at it some even said thank you. They didnt want to change anything except like Fact Checking stuff. Thank you for telling my story. I was fortunate enough to have an excerpt in Time Magazine for the watts riots also a man on hilton head they were both crying when i told them. This is the work that i do it brings their stories and that type of response is invaluable. Host i am old as fuck now thinking it came out only eight years ago but you were a fucking baby its amazing you wrote the book. It doesnt seem like you took that long. I announced the book deal it came out early january 2018 and it was published 2020. How can we make genealogy more acceptable . As we mentioned before we know that ancestry. Com but as far as genealogy look at the oldest people in your family where and when they were born if it is a town other than the one you are at ask why they move. There are many different chapters the genealogical societies pennsylvania utah and i would say there needs to be Funds Available for those that dont have any certified background. The questions are coming. Do you feel a sense of detachment as if you the role of the anthropologist . I wasnt conflicted when i first started to read the first few drafts. I did not even interview my family. So you dont have to be an observer. I show them what i was writing and i learned it was okay to merge and document a lot of our lives are fantastic. There are so many ways we were meant to not survive so i didnt feel conflicted and to show how we are in constant dialogue. This question says to be inherited by is the work dismantling shame necessary . I think of all the ways things in my body i did not put their that i was here this is the way i was conditioned. I dont mean legally free but autonomy and however i choose to do it. I write about shame because i use to carry a lot of shame. And a way to scrutinize. And then to get back to anybody else and then try to get to the root of the shame. And lifting shi up off of us. Do you feel is there any sort of shame that is generative that protects you from experiences you may not be protected from . I never got that question before. She would say yes. Maybe it is admonition. A lot of times you dont know people like that. I feel like to value myself but in terms of admonition and warning, absolutely. Host Sarah Gonzalez has two questions. Do you do so Supplemental Research . I found that i had other siblings with a healthy process. Generational trauma. Doctor Rachel Caputo writes about generational when it comes to Holocaust Survivors and their children. And also does posttraumatic disorder but also if you want to know how generational trauma shows that thats a great thing to look at. Definitely. I look at my fathers font family tree but im right where i belong. [laughter] host kim williams says how good wine overcome family resistance to Genealogy Research . I wanted to research for years but my older relatives has stonewalled me. Guest do you have their names . If you have their names and know where they are born. Go to ancestry. Com. And then then next person down. Anyway you can find that door or the open window always work around. That workaround is does that come easy . It depends. I tell writers all the time you dont have to write all day long we dont have that ability but where is your stride . My stride is Early Morning tell me anything between 6 30 a. M. Through noon. And because of the protest and up through 2 00 oclock in the morning and went to bed and it was still going off. And i had downloaded the app. That helps me. Normally i added at night. And then in the Early Morning midmorning is when i write. Host somehow in the morning the screen between the conscious and subconscious seem bigger. Guest because people are still getting ready. They are not popping off yet. Thats a perfect time for me to do this before i start interacting with people on twitter. [laughter] that historical writing is so powerful. Noted own community history. Tell them to write stuff down write it down. What word they say . What are some of the traditions that they had . And give me some facts. What was that like . I found that my maternal grandfather grew up in south jersey. And those sorts of things. But then sometimes people just need confidence. Sometimes they need to realize what they say matters. Just like a teenager when you are hormonal. When you tell students and to let them know it is a larger social fabric of american history. If somebody will be looking for them one day but once you start to encourage them once you break that thats when it happens. And then how to narrate and structure. And then those emotions open up. Host this book is literally a how to. So a lot of times students want to talk about to place the research and writing so talk about the encounter. The narrative on with element and books and then in this moment and now we have one more question what is a family myth that was unraveled that you learned is not true . What i didnt realize had veracity. There was no family myth that does not have some veracity. That was with regard to my mother that we had cherokee ties and that was very difficult because of black and indigenous indians. And then i spoke to two scholars contributing to the 6019 project all of our grandparents under this collective delusion and they on slaves they say no they are not. So if they are not. Please read the book. Radical possibilities. Those seem like stodgy old folk folks. And then during the pandemic it felt like a rigorous loving friendship. Is not reduction at all. As a complicated creation. It help me to wake up and stay awake and the own way radical friendship does. So what do you want this book friend to do for readers . And then what it was doing to me at the intellectual and emotional level this book is my gift for my family and future children so they never have to question their faith and claim to the american landscape they can trace their ancestors back. And then they can trace their family that is a blessing. And then what i want people to see is that when they went to observe their autonomy state violence or displacement these things keep happening so if anybody has an interest in africanamerican history in general for reparations. And with its own legacy. So when you speak of radical possibilities this book for me because its my baby but also i want them to feel the blood in the veins going to this. If we do not recommend the magnitude of the devastation. With the beauty in the trial. But the statues are still here. Host thank you so much. And more again thank you for doing some shit i could do that i never could do. I know it is a legacy book for your family but you blessed us. Thank you. Thank you to the strand bookstore. And thank you to all those people. Thank you so much we are not necessarily talking about people who are atheist although they tend to selfreport and through whatever reason with that institutional religion are organized religion. And they who may in that case when the judeochristian god had a form of faith. But were unwilling to identify. To spiritual but not religious but the broader category. That includes not just the spiritual but not religion. And with that religious tradition and those are more eclectic. And with that self identified christians believing in reincarnation something you dont associate with christian orthodoxy. And with those components and then to mix and match in a term in that sense that we are all making our own religion. And the element of the traditional religion. Political activism. Or witchcraft with ghana and neopaganism of the fastestgrowing religions in america. So on and so forth. Good evening everyone thank you for tuning in tonight we are lucky to have with us jordan and christian. They will be in discussion tonight it will be moderated by army veteran. We are gravely could join us tonight. If you want to ask jordan and chris questions click the button and we will look at those througut
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