Six chapters that the country to host a pin america chapter, we opinion america tulsa and im really proud to say im the leader of the group and its been a relationship that gets better and better. Weve had the opportunity to do several event with pin and prior to affiliation as an actual chapter and started laying the groundwork for this relationship moving forward and its something if you dont know the work that they do, its been veranamazing organization advocs for authors and freedom of the press and all kinds of important things in the mission that we have with the Tulsa Literary Coalition and it is a membership driven program and organization and i would invite you to go to pen. Org and see everything that they are doing especially right now. There is so much going on with limitations to press freedoms, everyday something is happening that we didnt probably know about in the work that is happening. We have a special membership promo and if you go to the website you can use the code pin fed. Com and get 10 off your membership. I am happy to say we as organizations to and more to come on that. Tonight we will talk with the ceo and im happy to say a friend and someone who i look up to as a leader in this world and i somewhat take part in. Ive had the chance to talk to authors of the past month and am always thrilled when somebody else wants to take the opportunity away from me and i get to watch and enjoy and having to run it in my friend doctor johns human is not only a longtime friend, they would get into no age other to beginning but also a board member and the coalition a huge advocate and we do magic city books. It is a great all in all guy advocate for the arts and culture and tulsa. If you have a question we would invite you will put you on the q a and incorporate as many of those as we can, if you dont have this book yet, the book which will be talking about tonight, a book i would say i love the book when it can do, has something that piss is off everybody in the best possible way and if you think youre on one side of the issue and something that will challenge and what you believe and what do you think you believe in. And its a powerful thing to do and what we believe in at the core of all of this. If you havent had a chance to get the book we will post links to buy the book through magic city directly and we will do that several times tonight so you have an opportunity to do that. I want to say a big welcome and thank you to suzanne and doctor john truman. Welcome suzanne. Thank you for having me its fun to be in tulsa even though im not in tulsa. We definitely wish you were here, some point when the pandemic recedes we definitely want to get you here. I really like the book, and made me think and congratulations and im impressed with the thoroughness. Im not in any way a lawyer or legal scholar, which you are and in some ways the second half of the book you cite many many famous Supreme Court cases. I thought where we could start because i lead a college campus, that was one area that you focus on a little bit in the book is College Campuses and freedom of speech and callout culture and i just start by saying you talk about something which i sort of knew that i did not know there was a term and i guess can you just differentiate between callout culture and what you hope people do with colin. We done a lot of work on campuses and pin america over the last four or five years and its really become somewhat alarmed by the witnessing of a rising generation is increasingly skeptical about free speech and i can understand why. They tend to hear free speech principles invoked in relation to speech that is hateful or derogatory in some way and the professor or the other student says its free speech and university protected because its free speech but if you hear of free speech invoked only in that context, you can see why somebody might become dubious of the idea of free speech and that is one of the reasons i wrote the book out of the concern that were at risk of losing a rising generation when it comes to believing in the principle of free speech and i grew up a bedrock of u. S. Constitution in our culture and what makes a Society Great but its extremely important to reach the rising generation when it comes to callout collins, i would say just to ground a little bit, my interpretation of a lot of the controversies that go on in the campus, there is a tension between the drive students to many faculty have to render the campus more equal and inclusive just place to eradicate the legacy of discrimination and exclusion that are so stubborn in this country that were now reckoning with at a new level of the myth the protest of the last few months. But sometimes that effort as noble as it is can beer crossed the double yellow line into a degree of story and sniffs when it sees the best thing to do to foster a sense of belonging among students with marginalized groups or to combat bigotry would be to ban or punish speech. You can understand why that comes up. And we are calling out and calling in, it really has to do with how you respond to speech that you find offensive. As a professor this is a common scenario, that a professor will verbalize the inward in class. That at the university of oklahoma. Its happening all over the country they may be quoting james baldwin, mark twain, they may be teaching a Law School Class about the doctrine of siding words and trying to give an example but what we find is our students have a very strong reaction and they think its objectionable no matter what. It doesnt matter that the professor did not need any offense. The question situation like that does not have to be inward, what you do, callout is to publicly shame the person, it can be a petition, social media, facetoface confrontation, but it is something that is visible to everyone. A colin is a different approach. The behind the scenes, approaching someone privately in your goal is to tell them that youve offended me or other people and you may not realize how your words came across but not to shame. It depends on the circumstance whether you think you can get through to the person, was this intentional or unintentional, where people hurt by the words and do they need to hear your allies in the public demonstration of support, and outlines here are the criteria that you can used to determine which approach makes more sense to pending on the circumstances. You mention apologies and you have a pretty nice short chapter that includes apologies. So what are the components of a good apology or a true apology. I think our culture and our media and our politicians for example in your apology. It is true and i think one of the results of that is is very little space for apology and forgiveness in the freespeech battle. To me a convincing apology is one that accepts blame for what you did, youre not apologizing just because someone else was hurt or bothered but you acknowledge you did something wrong and that has to be encompassing, it cannot be parsimonious where you are delineating and drawing sharp lines around what you can accept blame for and what you dont, it used to be that your searching and sense that youre willing to acknowledge what you said and it didnt intend to be racist. Maybe it does reflect your upbringing or your background or your blind spot that you had. In some instances it may entail outreach to a group in which you have limited contact, you dont know much about the Lgbtq Community and theres some work to be done to get to know it better so you dont stumble into the same mistakes in the future and for one example, just in recent days of what you call pseudo apology is alexandria ocasiocortez a misogynist slur by representative from florida, he recorded to apologize but in doing of denied saying it and witnesses and he went on and on about the fact that he has a daughter and a wife and he someone who is good to women and so she secured that in her apology rebuttal on the floor of the congress. That was an impressive speech. What brought in from Campus Culture and talk about the broader culture and when we talk about callout theres cancel culture where we have these tools, social media, twitter in particular but others, facebook or somebody does Say Something offensive or somebody unintentionally says something that does offend people in very quickly there can be what feels like a storm of protest were essentially there is a cry out to cancel that person and some of that of course is involved from the me too movement and that has been legitimate legal calls to try people. But there are many examples that you cite in the book and i was wondering if you could broaden and talk a little bit about cancel culture and how we can protect the speech but also be mindful. One of the cancel cultures is the terms used elastically it can be invoked from everything is using instances and the me too Movement Like a Harvey Weinstein or bill cosby where they have been convicted of crimes and they do get exiled from the culture and i dont think anybody takes months into without and there are other instances where someone tweets out something that is seen as contrary to the movement to defend the police or is construed to be transgender individuals to be content. The loan singular active speech in the construction can in turn invoke the huge backlash and you can be the person that becomes almost untouchable and not only are they stigmatized the anybody who engages with them the stigma carries over. And it serves to enforce isolation into concentric social search circle and i think that phenomenon is destructive in its excessive and his draconian and its enforcement if you adhere to it, you may put your own reputation at risk as well. I think that the level of cancel culture that concerns people and its also indefinite duration and it may be one mistake that an editor makes with the piece on me too uncontroversial and all the said not only out of editor with a couple of days and i can publish it anymore. And when it does happen too. After period of time create some on ramps so people are not effectively silenced and marginalized forever particular on the basis of a single act of expression or decision. That does not warrant such a lasting response. Weaver Current Situation and told seth that i would like to ask you about that i think is going on in other places as well. Around the tenant juneteenth President Trump was going to hold a rally there was controversy all because of the pandemic and the idea of the large public gathering. But what happened many people in the black community and allies who painted black lives matter on a stretch of Greenwood Avenue which is a historic area that the tulsa massacre 99 years ago. And then it is been there for two months now and its been a place of healing and gathering for many people until recently the head of the Republican Party said that he or the party wanted to back the blue or baby lives matter and if you allow one instance of free speech you have to allow others and it went on with their with the defacement of the blue line and people came out to clean that off and repainted into counter protests. So the city council is stuck in the mirror with what to do and i guess if you can help us sort through that, it is complicated. Is sort of connects to the protests that have happened around the country and monuments in names, for example at el where i know you went the debate to rename the houses and what messaging and institution should put forward collectively and how the statements and values are who gets to decide what the statements of values are and when they should change. And when is it up for debate. I generally think those questions are not really what matters in Free Expression that the community can change its mind if they decide they no longer want to have a statute of robert e lee, that is in their rights. Thats not infringing on anyones expressive rights. I question that i take with them in a civil decision, i know another cities in new york city the black lives matter outside ththe trump tower in washingtonn the streets there. I think whoever is in charge whether the mayor, the city council should have the right to decide what expression is going to be conveyed in the public spaces that are under their control. If you continue to say the messaging that you have chosen neglects in a new institution of the city they want that reflected in some way, i dont think that the full expression that they are exerting but may be assort to be recognized and acknowledged and it may make some sense to find a way to do that. And show respect and its an expression in new york as well coming around that you want a level of equilibrium in the black lives matter and not undercutting the role of the police. Perhaps there is another part of town where an alternative message can be conveyed and perhaps a discussion that often times all of these issues, this is complicated by the pandemic and if you can get people in a room in a conversation to explain, here is my change in the blue line through our message was not something that is acceptable, heres what that signified to us and talk through what theyre trying to achieve, sometimes i will not say always but sometimes you can find a solution that will be acceptab acceptable. Is definitely of the moment and i figure mayor and city council are paralyzed in a couple of her City Councils have come up strongly in maintaining and keeping it in others not so much. The city lawyer has actually declared an illegal street art or graffiti and thats where some of the trouble lies with the city ordinance. Thats a different situation than the other cities if its not something that was officially authorized, nonetheless the city may want to decide, this is not the moment even though they violated the ordinance, this is not the moment to paint over the message and thats a bullock we giving the history of tulsa and where you are and thats not the right answer for this moment. I want to turn to the whole idea of information and state control. You talk both your work at pen america and also in the book and you talk a little bit about china. Interestingly i was unaware of the fact that china and the constitution does to free speech. But as you point on practice there could not be further from that and pin america you have published the list of 80 or so examples of how china oppresses people an artist and journalist and people who tried to tell the truth and you dont see that really Getting Better anytime soon. It is getting much worse. This morning i was woken up by a message from last night in hong kong they arrested a major media tycoon who is a known prodemocracy advocate jimmy law and that is the crackdown happening in hong kong with the inaction of the new National Security law that once democratic and very open and i dont know how many people in the audience have been the hong kong but if you go there or went there at least a few years ago it feels like a very open place and has wonderful universities, human rights lawyers, a vibrant media scene, lots of journalist and is strictly been the place where all the western media organizations and newspapers have their staff and with so much for your than in china in beijing right now is clamping down in a very harsh way as an activist new law and rounding people up and i was told how journalists can get lawyers in International Legal assistance and its a very sad situation and what it reflects beijings arm is getting longer and longer we issued a report last week on the influence that china wheels in hollywood because beijing and the Chinese Government has said my fatal investors that now are major powerbrokers in hollywood as well as access to control the Chinese Market which is become a huge market in the world second in the Worlds LargestHollywood Studios want their movies to be shown in china and theyre willing to give up a lot in exchange for that. That means surrendering the right to criticize the chinese or depict the chinese negatively in any way that is a bargain that they are willing to make so we document this in a report and its one example, theres other people that are written to us and how the same thing goes on in the gaming industry and in the u. S. And Chinese Students to pay full freight have become a major source of revenue for u. S. Universities in the Strings Attached to that until the question of not what goes inside of china and at pen america weve been concerned with for a long time and is getting worse but their growing influence around the world as a superpower in economic course in bringing an approach to Free Expression that takes the words on the page of their own law and International Law and to cancel all meaning from them. Sticking to the china example, you mentioned how the hollywood movie studios are willing to make that compromise in order to access the Chinese Market and similarly our Technology Companies particular are behemoths like facebook or google and agree to chinese censorship in order to enter the Chinese Market and you talk and some length about the Technology Companies and how both, we can hold them accountable and i thought that was interesting, in fact i was not aware, i know a lot about the criticism of facebook and its founders Mark Zuckerberg but i was not aware that he had in 2019 this last year put forth the idea of an Oversight Board which i think they propose Something Like 40 people to be you call another thing thats her preferred term, citizen Advisory Board where this board could essentially decide loading the responsibility they were not able to make a way around that. They want to get back in because its a huge market. They were not able to work and we did a lot of work at penn american underscoring no way to have a shred of credibility on Free Expression issues while operating inside of china. That is become an issue for hong kong as well and when you come to the global and the role in the u. S. , when i lay out in the book is there is two sides to the coin and on the one hand we should be leery of the Massive Companies that control such bad swats of our Public Square and they rolled up the functions that were once performed by newspapers, magazines, bulletin boards, town meetings, so many different specific life that you can remember from the 70s, 80s rolled up into one family album, College Reunions are all happening on the same platforms so they control so much and i think we do need to be leery about giving them jurisdiction to arbitrate speech because they have their own profit motives and their own ideologies and their algorithms and Business Models and upbeat of of the incendiary content that can be very explosive and elevate the most provocative outlandish where there it is conspiracy theories or other kinds of extremist content that are privileged technically and algorithmically within the platform. There is a lot about the platform that we cannot trust in need to be and keep a very sure brian and at the same time i do think we need to hold them accountable and ask them to do more in addressing the ways the online content is so manifestly harmful and you can go down the list, you cyber bullying, online harassment, disinformation in the context of covid, disinformation in our politics which is undercutting our democracy, suppressing the vote, casting a call on mailin ballots, all sorts of things, we do need them to play a stronger role and i do think they will play a stronger role in moderating and mediating content in there under pressure from consumers, advertisers, regulators, now on both sides of the aisle and what i argue in the book, with that we need to create a failsafe it a active as inevitably there are more false positives and more content that gets taken down from the platforms of people who believe that free speech rights have been impinged upon have already recourse and could get a human being on the line to make their case and get their content reinstated if that is appropriate, that does not exi exist, that is of Customer Service coming ask about the content Oversight Board, it will not play that role, it will look at the most difficult borderline question like video of nancy pelosi that slowed down to make it seem as if her speech is slurred, should that be taken on facebook or not. What they want is a line drawing situation to have recourse to an independent body so they are not to force to render all those decisions themselves and they have a major of deniability and objectivity that comes into the process that has the potential to be positive and they have not started the board has been assembled but has not started his work at but the most import aspect will have a prudent in the public decision that we will be able to look at and analyze and anticipate to know what is going happen next with a given area of content and the biggest problem of the platform is a total lack of transparency and not having any insight of how these decisions are made and how much content is being taken down and what kind of content and so this is one small step in the direction of greater visibility on the public and researchers that have to much better understand this. You mentioned coronavirus and misinformation and im assuming this is a manuscript for the pandemic. But you wrote an article titled and treated to become the coronavirus casualty in march. We had a difficult time communicative Public Health official experts in trying to convey messages around health and safety because theres is so much information in various cures and vaccines and in fact misinformation about the disease itself in a part of that the sign going on in real time and were learning so much and what would you like to see in a robust democracy with the First Amendment and i dont want to put words in your mouth but im guessing we would all fight for truth and essentially quash all of these. Theres a couple of interesting things going on and what i find alarming and the president has played a big role in its Software Media environment and social media environment. And there is clearing erosion in the trust that we hold an institution and that is part of the reason why there has been so much confusion over what the best advice on how to control the pandemic and here in new york the pandemic is under good control at the moment and people dont trust that the doctors and Public Officials and were in great danger nonetheless, thats a reflection of the sewing of distrust and institutions to the president inconsistent undercutting a Public Health authority in the leaders like dr. Fauci and their grimace as they stand next to the president and he says something outlandish and if they call him out under normal circumstances that they will be exile in loser influence and they wont be able to insert their expertise and tried to shape the policy. I understand that the bargain that they make and undercut public faith in what should be our trusted house authority. I dont think people know where to turn in some air on the side of caution and there is no consensus about who you can trust when it comes to what you ought to be doing in the situation. Where we have had more of a qualified success is actually online where the platforms have been very aggressive in taking down covid related misinformation, quackery and Conspiracy Theory and they relied on algorithms to do it in part because their human content moderators cant come into the call center during the period and theyve also elevated credible information and if you search for covid on facebook or google youll see cdc and w. H. O. Misinformation coming up to the top of the feed. Its actually demonstrated that they have a greater ability to control content on the platform and many people previously believed, its been very positive and there are difficult line drawing and they adopted a new standard they will remove content that is associated with a potential of imminent harm and somebody with a false cure, with hydrochloric wine or fox news that children are immune from the virus and you could draw a direct link between how the information might cause harm, the platform will take it down. I think where it may go too far, what if there is a doctor that has a certain experience in their practice and they witness a particular type of treatment working and they want to discuss that or get feedback is that something that should be banned from facebook because it has not been verified by the wh a or the cdc at this point. A lot of us would think there should be a space to discuss that and share information and you know what your on facebook is not entirely definitive. There is difficult line drawing questions and this again is what is missing from the picture is a recourse for people and their content is unjustifiably been taken down. They are taking down covid related misinformation. By and large every good thing but we ought to have a failsafe to ensure it does not go too far. One of the main themes that runs to the book is the First Amendment. In prior to your work with pen america when youve considered yourself an expert in other many legal scholars who make an entire career of their First Amendment powers and until he read the book i had not thought of you that way but certainly doing an excellent job. Im not a First Amendment scholar and one of the points i make in the book is there is so much in terms of what were grasping with and what were talking about tonight is the collinson callouts and save bases on campus in the debates over online content in our freespeech battles today actually barely implicate the First Amendment and most americans when you hear about freespeech you reflectively say First Amendment because thats how we were trained in Elementary School in the First Amendments prohibition on government and freespeech and its very important. If it does not solve the issues that were grappling with today which is one of the reasons in the book that ive to argue we as citizens and leaders need to take up the mantle of defending free speech because we cannot rely on the courts and the lawyers in cases where Government Intervention in speech is not the problem. The problem is Something Else the nature of social media or the censorious news of the mob or the woken is in the classroom and the Chilling Effect that that can have. I think that is an apartment amendment to how we understand our evolution and how we understand our freespeech to what it will take to uphold and its not enough to rely on the First Amendment. When it comes to the First Amendment there are a few things that someone who is not a scholar but has come up against i relate very important things and that the other people would find useful as well including a simple inventory of what the exception to the First Amendment are because the First Amendment does not protect all content and theres things like defamation and slander and threats in imminent violence and a number of other categories that are well developed exceptions to the First Amendment. Particularly for young people who feel freespeech does not do enough to protect them, if you can argue with more on free speech to help to understand which ones are permitted under the constitution and the case law as of today, that is something i set out and i found useful to get your head in the several categories that are important. Thats part of the case law in the 20 century American History in the 19th century to some extent and it is interesting to those exceptions of the well articulated exceptions like incitement for threat. To me having no legal background it was really interesting to learn the case law. Early in your career call presumed equal and i thought it was so interesting that you and a colleague if i understood correctly you queried many female attorneys about what their expenses were at their major law firms and i was wondering if you can share about that experience. Thank you for asking about it. When we were in law school and its embarrassing to admit but this is basically before the internet or email that we did a male then survey of women at large law firms and we asked them about sexism and discrimination and stereotyping in working family issues and opportunities for advancement in our notion is that we rank these firms to shame the ones that did the worst into taking a look at the issues and making change in doing better for the women employees. It was quite effective, is a great project in very simple and we later ended up publishing it as a book and we rated and rank these firms and they were very upset about it and they were scrambling and creating taskforces and thats what we hope for but i say what really needed to happen with the Harvard Women Law Association which we are a part of when we started needed to commit to and be funded to do the project, lets say every two or three years. If that it happened that wouldve really driven a lot of change it was not enough we did it twice, that was not enough. So the womans lock, you cannot carried on after work. They did it 15 years later and we were delighted. You know its like a club like that is animated by whoever is there in the moment and how much energy they have and what their priorities are, it is not something you can dictate. Theres a whole franchise idea like the reports and law firms for women every year. The harvard seal of approval and law firms for women. You had a fascinating career and most recently and you had a lot of government extremes as well. Im wondering if you could share with audience and you worked at the United Nations and you do tell a little bit about in the book and included an amazing thing that you did and to this day i cannot understand what you talk in a word that ive never heard before, in the United States is constantly in arrears to pay the United Nations dudes in one of their jobs became rectifying the arrearage as United Nations. Can you tell us about that experience and what that was like. This is the very end of the Clinton Administration and the u. S. Had a billion in half dollars in arrears to the un that have been accumulated over the years through various congressional withholdings and a refusal to pay certain dues that we owed into appropriate the money necessary. The big bill had built up in every un meeting that we went into we had to pay dues on time in full and without conditions before we can open up her malls and talk about iraq or palestine or any other issue. It was really embarrassing and we were in the longest. Of sustained prosperity in u. S. History. We had no excuse so we had a law that had been passed that said we can pay back the bulk of our rears only if we could get the un to agree to rewrite a system of assessment so we could pay less share of the un budget going forward. So we have to get that agreement among the hundred 92 countries of the un before we can pay what we already owed them, it was not a popular policy and the challenge was to get this agreement and it was a wonderful professional challenge because it literally had to be a consensus of 192 countries and they had to accept bigger bills like paying more which none wanted to do and to let us pay less, it was an agreed disposition for us to have taken but we had to get it through by hook or by crook and by figuring out that was an amazing experience i traveled all of the world to be with these countries and capitals and you just gotta work with every single delegation at the un, big and small because they were all affected and they all had the buyin. And we succeeded, we got the deal which was very exciting. That is amazing. You cannot often times get three or four countries in your 192. I still think that should go down in world history. It is so calming, when the u. S. Is thinking about a rare scale of assessment for renegotiatioreattend renegoti. And people want to know how this is done. There is some institutional memory about it. That is very impressive. Lets come back to your current book that were talking about im wondering if you wouldnt mind, you get assets and soundbite interviews the more expensive interviews, what is nice about the book in a nice edited feature in in each chapter advice and even outline. Brilliance is important that you be openminded and put yourself in the position of the listener. Be sympathetic and empathetic. But thats of course be too simplistic. What are some of the points that you probably get asked about and every one of these. Suzanne i think you put the nail on the head. With the idea that particularly living in our increasingly diverse society. That is a big part of my argument is that you have to be cognitive of who is in your audience. And with their sensitivities and pressure points are. And again this is night the 1950s for your writing for a newspaper that has a readership that consistent 20000 people in your town. The demographic demy are your own. But thats not how it works anymore. Whether youre in a classroom writing on social media or publishing something in a magazine that is going to much more diverse audience. People with all kinds of backgrounds. An interest in orientations and ideologies previously you have to think through as you write coming up think about it. Most of us are not intentionally trying to offend people. And is not good enough to simply not have that intent. Youll actually need to go out and understand something about this audience and what their and what that composition is in with their hot buttons are rated with terminology they may use. In referring to certain things. I refer to it in one session, being your own editor. If you think about the role that the editors have historically played. Carefully going over your work and asking questions and finding out where things could be subject to misinterpretation. We all have to internalize that in function for ourselves. When we are speaking, take that extra level of care. And i have a chapter on what i call the dubious care, in my mind escalates the larger platform that you have. Youre a University President. So what you say around your dinner table maybe one thing that what youre saying behind the podium youre speaking to your students were giving a meeting or media interview, is quite different. Representing the university in that setting. And i think it is fair that your help to a higher standard. And if youre talking about a topic, where youre not an expert, when one is speaking about something that isnt your particular part youre talking about a community that are not part of. I think the burden is heightened in that situation. To do your research. If if you want to run it by somebody who has that expertise. They meet someone from that community. Make sure your words wellplanned in the way that it was intended. So i think to exercise things responsibly in this digitized world, the does require an extra level of care and forethought. The same time argue in one of my other principles is that we need to be willing to do the work of bringing difficult arguments forward. And unpopular ideas and that there are ways of doing it that can help you get your message across without being misperception or people being offended. And you can neutralize a lot of hostilities if youre careful with your arguments. If you anticipate a counter argument. If you avoid unintentional offense and you can describe your message of anything that might be misconstrued. There are ways of making these arguments and give you a better shot of being heard actually persuading someone. I feel strongly of what i dont want to see is people just retreat and say, it is too difficult for you too much risk. Nobody is going to appreciate my weighing in on this and the topic maybe is abortion or Police Reform or palestine or even electoral politics. There somebody politics right now where its understandable that people just sort of turned of the ways. Because the risk of getting into a an interaction seems so high. So i think its important rated to support one another and to make difficult arguments and we are willing ourselves to speak. And even when we know our viewpoints may be controversial. You mentioned that the pulpit for the podium the one has and its important to think about where you are in terms of closure in a particular audience and with the impact is. Can help but to think of every summers who previously was president of harvard university. Probably most of our audience is familiar with the story. But if you could share with what he said and why it was important that people are calling for him to resign from the position. Suzanne given academic conference basically called into question whether women have the same natural aptitude is man when it comes to math and science and suggested that they paid credence to research that indicates that they may not. I believe firmly thats Hyper Research and conversation should not be off limits. There is data that shows that. And i think the best answer is to variance. And since then it never be surfaced or talked about again. I think should be looked at. People should be able to debate it. And her apps think about it prints hard hard for me to believe is that conclusive are persuasive. But he still the president of harvard university. And he carried all the authority and weight of that position. So often women in the university there after not wonder whether he thought they had the equivalent aptitudes of their male counterparts. So his ability to run that institution as in traditional opportunities to women on the faculty in the student body. I think it was. Fundamentally called into question. So when you have an institutional reader who went through something they say undercuts confidence that they can lead the university, the values that institution stands for and treating people equally. That can be and it was in his case, kind fatal to his leadership. It is a very harsh consequence for speech. But i do think the stakes are higher the more lofty your position is. And that duty is care has to be stronger. And that for him, this perfectly acceptable thing to say if he was among a small group of friends are back when he was on the harvard faculty. They has to recognize as the University President that you no longer have that leeway. And could barely undermine the significant segment of his population that you serve and represent his president. John listed on one other example of the college president. And this was an example, actually was not aware of until you brought it to my attention. But it can either is or was, president of the university of florida. In detail happy handled where Richard Spencer, the famous hatemonger was invited to speak on campus. Make the distinguish between public and private universities. And the university of florida could not elect to bar him from speaking. But which you kind of paint is a shining example of how leadership should respond in the situation. Suzanne you had Richard Spencer and the white supremacist in the novellas who are just going around to College Campuses and insisting on speaking and sometimes where possible, and listed an invitation the student group. Sometimes they would book an auditorium where they could. And the purpose really was to be shut down. What they wanted more than anything else in the path, and berkeley which was for the university to call it off credence is that they could not speak so they could then become a great champion of free speech. And sue the university and grandstand rally their followers. To protest without rage. This is part of a gave free speech sort of a bad name on many campuses over period of time. And what we had indicated in america and i think he did well, was to avoid falling into that trap. And not give the spencers of the world with the gratification of shut down. But instead say, fine, you come and speak on campus. Let me make clear that the factor coming here, it constitutes an endorsement or ratification of you or your message. And what they try to characterize it that way, they shutting down. And then he did his own campaign. He the right to speak the crystal clear, that the Administration Institution condemned his message. So there were two things that the University Leadership needs to do in these situations. Its like walking and chewing gum party did they have to also uphold the First Amendment rights and enforce the values of the institution. And i think he did that well. John this is been great suzanne. In the book, absolutely fascinating and compelling. I think it comes in a very timely moment in our nations history. And there is right behind you. Dare to speak. He lifted up also. Suzanne in the books. John apparently in the chats come there several links you can go to. If you want to order the book from magic city which is independent nonprofit bookstore. And you can also get a discounted membership in an america. Friends. Yes thank you. And listen, congratulations on your book and thank you so much for joining us. And please stay safe with you and your family during the pandemic. I know that you have extensive virtual book tour so were delighted that you were made this virtual stop here in tulsa. We hope to see you when circumstances allowed. Suzanne likewise and thank you so much for doing this john. Made so much into your house there. This is been a wonderful store. In that chapter of pen america in tulsa read thank you. John thank you and have a good night. Heres a look at some books being published this week. President trump former personal attorney, Michael Cohen because his years working with the president. And disloyal. And what can i do actress jane fonda reference in her work as a private activist in a sling so others can get involved in a movement and endure memoir speaking for myself, former White House Press secretary remembers her time in the trump administration. Also being published this week, compromised by former fbi agent and Mueller Investigation team member peter. In the book he offers his thoughts on the Russian Investigation and the trump administration. And looking back at the life of her late grandparents, george w. Bush. And barbara bush and everything beautiful in time. And killing crazy horse, former fox news Host Bill Oreilly and author martin describes the conflicts between native american tribes in the United States government. And John Hopkins University history professor martha jones he scores the efforts by black women doing the right to vote for eating been barred you finally titled this coming week, over books are sold, and was for many of the authors in the near future on book tv. On cspan2. During a Virtual Event hosted by the Commonwealth Club of san francisco, the life and leadership of her grandfather, dwight eisenhower. Heres a portion. Very conscience of what it would be to be diminished president s. We have to remember the present wilson, really almost a scandal that people in the country didnt know how ill the president was freed so i was determined he was determined not to himself in the situation. And after he had three illnesses during his presidency, and after each one of them, he would give himself a very test arduous test. Like around the world trip or a trip to europe required lots of meetings and lots of stress. Any always told his advisors if i do not perform at top level, you have to tell me because that all resign. In any case, thats never happened. He became actually, rather good at managing his time. In managing his stress and generally positioning themselves to get through his second term. To watch the rest of this program, visit our website booktv. Org and search for author Susan Eisenhower for the title of her book, how i can lead. Using the box at the top of page. Hello and welcome to our event with comedian judy gold. Were really excited to have judy with us tonight with her book of yes, i can say this. Before we get startedhe