Transcripts For CSPAN2 Summer Series With Doris Kearns Goodwin 20240712

Book team of rivals was the inspiration for Stephen Spielbergs lincoln in 2012. Doctor goodwin earned her phd at harvard. So coming up, were going to re air her in death appearance where she discussed her entire body of work and took phone calls. Will also be showing you discussions from her books, leadership in turbulent times. In holy pulpit. So well start with a january 1st, 1995 the parents on cspan series footnotes. In this hourlong interview, she discussed franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt in the home front during world war ii. Her book, no ordinary time, won the Pulitzer Prize for history. Now here is historian doris goodwin. Author no ordinary time. If you could ask either Franklin Roosevelt or Eleanor Roosevelt a couple of questions after all of the work that is done. What would you be. I think it would like to understand why she was unable a certain moment in the middle of the war when he asked her to be his wife again and stop traveling and stay home and take care of him, and is a yes to him. I know that he loved her. And i want to say, why did you do it pretty you will die soon. Wish you wouldve done it braided i think brand would want to understand what he could not share himself more fully with anyone. He was the most brilliant and charming, most thoughtful personality. Everybody thought how warm he was. But underneath. I want to try to understand why that was so and why he couldnt give him some more to the people who loved him. Will base his book different than all of the rest braided. Dorris i think what i wanted to do is understand not only franklin and eleanors relationship, but to understand the whole extended family this front of them in the white house. And he came understanding that these two characters really both needed other people to be the intended needs that were left over as a result of their troubled marriage. So when i came upon was the sense that second family quarters of the white house really like a residential hotel. Its about seven People Living there with him our intimate friends. And that was a part it was really fun for me. If he had asked a question of either one of them about personal relationships, they had with other people, it would be most interested in. Dorris not simply lucy who everybody is seen as essential romantic in his life because she had an affair with him back in 1980. That is almost broke up eleanors marriage, theres another woman that i think had an even more central role to play in his life. And that was his secretary. She has started working pouring and she was only 20 years old 1920 any she loved him all the rest of his life and she never married. Everybody in washington knew that he wa she was his other wi. She was the one who took care of roosevelt pretty he had a cold, she would bring the confidence into the white house. If he was grumpy she would arrange a poker game and night. Somehow she would be the one to be the hostess. She really was on the database is the closest person in the world to him. I would like to know more about her. Host you have in the book, this secondfloor scenario. And will get a closer shot here in some of these names. Why did you put this in the book braided. Doris it seems to me what the reader was going to get writing the book was i hope a sense of what it was like 50 years ago, to be the white house. Because each of these by someone who is very important either franklin or eleanor, the closest friends and in some case magic friends. It wanted everybody to see how close they were. To see that they can Wander Around and actually cannot talk to one another. In 1940 1945. Host as you can see here, you have Eleanor Roosevelts bedroom and right across the hall is lorena hickox. Now who is she and what was their relationship. This is the second floor of the white house. Doris a former reporter for the Associated Press and in fact 1933, she was considered legal female in the country, she weighed about 200 pounds, smoke cigars play poker with the guys. She was really smart. And she came to interview franklin and eleanor during the campaign and eleanor and she became really close friends. She fell in love with eleanor, reportedly to probably help eleanor become the activists first lady that she did. She came up with the idea of her leg press conferences every week braided only female reporters income. So whole porter. She was the one who came up with the idea the syndicated columns and eleanor wrote everyday. And really helped eleanor transform the role of the first lady of te ceremony to an activist one. In the course that she did fall in love with eleanor. I dont think eleanor fully reciprocated it she wanted her living nearby. She lived in the white house the entire time during the war. Host also the second floor, of the schematic is a room in which he hopkins lived in predict how long did he live in their annuity. Doris roosevelts chief demand a certain sense during the 1930s pretty that of the works in progress. Even a social worker originally. Book that when the war broke out in europe the van 1940, hopkins was staying overnight that night at the white house when roosevelt decided he wanted him nearby. He needed somebody who could talk to first thing in the morning, calculated night. And it was his chief advisor and Foreign Policy. Hopkins was before roosevelt met him. He was really unprecedented in terms of he made kissinger look like a mildmannered guy in terms of the power that hopkins had pretty incredibly loyal to results. And he was there from 1940 until 1942. And when he got married, roosevelt was sad pretty eventually stayed there for about six months. But then she finally wanted wife of hi customer on. Host mr. Churchill, who was roosevelts mother. And martha. Doris vincent pretty interesting room. First mother came, she wanted the back bedroom and that was his room there. She would come to visit maybe once a month, their mates and their servants, always be contentious and assert my in the white house. And then also, an interesting character who she would come to washington during the four years in exile from norway. Her husband the crown prince. In the of the way. And her son is currently the king of norway now. She was beautiful, and very tall. I think she had a gay spirited kind of conversation that he enjoyed. No more somehow understood that he needed the kind of companionship. So she would visit on weekends and keeping company in the movies and keeping him company to dinners at night. Often get when eleanor was away. This would be her sweet. But when churchill came, he was an incredible character and said that room. He would come and save her life. For weeks at a time. His habits were so exhausting and nobody else could sleep during the period of time he was there pretty would awaken in the morning of wine for breakfast. And scotch and soda for lunch and friday night. In Smoking Cigars until 2 00 a. M. And whenever he would finally leave after being in. Reporter care for weeks, the staff would have to sleep. In order to recuperate. Host you mentioned the relationship between Princess Martha of norway and fdr was romantic. Doris some of the people lived in the white house at the time suggested that he was that was the girlfriend. Real flirtations between the two. I suspect thats what the element of the relationship was pradip it wasnt some political partner. Some old friend and companion. It was a flirtatious relationship. Whether it went beyond kissing and romance or pleasure i dont know but it certainly was not afraid. Host and a state in one of the rooms. Shes in this picture in the middle of next to her father. What was their relationship. Doris its interesting. Some of the most moving moments of this period of time. Anna had originally been the mothers daughter. When i was a young girl and adolescent, eleanor had told her the story of the fact that her father had had this affair with the state long ago. Anna had taken her mothers side. And over the years the tooth grown so close, that they read each other letters to her three times a week. They saw each other for five times a year even when anna lived on the other best friend what would happen is in the middle of the war, after eleanor rejected franklin to stay home and beat his wife again, he got so slowly that he is the daughter anna to come and take the place. Missy by that point, even though she was only in early 40s and a stroke you can never speak again. It is one of those devastating things roosevelt during the work years pretty because it was so lonely without missy and the mother had also died. He asked anna to come and stay in the white house. Then what happened is in some ways she became her fathers daughter. Kid long legs, tall, left cocktails. She could stay up at night, all of the things that eleanor never vetted easy to do pretty eleanor begin to be come display street is very complicated relationship. I live on main street in concord, massachusetts. I think of the compromise. Love the city and a gruff actually outside of new york my husband loves the row country. He wanted to live in maine. So it was near enough to boston that i can every city life and closeups country my husband to feel like he was living outside of the summer. Our country than suburban. Richard goodwin, writer also. My husband. Recently hes been involved in the scandal, really because his first job was to investigate television. We are having a great time right now, 27 yearold actor the big screen. Its really been fun. But mostly my husbands a writer. And i met my husband in harvard. As teaching at harvard. And of course of the presidency. Talk to the market government courses and he came to finish a book for you had an office with this Little Institute in he had an officer next to mine. Host he dedicates book 23 people prayed for they pradip. Doris probably mustve part of people in my life, one in his 20s, and one in college and the other one is still something got in high school. And it wanted to end. I wish they were young again. Ive written three books pretty. Doris the first book was Lyndon Johnson and the american dream. They came out of the experience that i will forever treasure. Having been 23 and 24 years old, and working for president in the white house having him with his memoirs. I keep think johnson is round. I the 700 page book. That is the first book. A great experience to try to understand that man who i found so sad in his retirement of olives at the ranch. So think he had nothing left in his life. And it seared into my mind for ever made of the first book in the second one was called the kennedys read and it was a three generation history think the Kennedy Family. In fact, partly made possible by the fact that, i mean, excess to their private papers. An admin in the attic for over 50 years because i have has been entered. One of the reasons why this book in the response mean so much is that the first time i had to drive and trent go through without the advantage of knowing the Kennedy Family. Host is a new information in the book. Doris yes. Fight to think this period of time, by focusing on American Home front rather than the battlefront, for all the thousands of books that have been written about world war ii, very few the focus on what happened here at home. Most of those have been testate kind of books. In a chapter on civil rights and then one on companies incarceration camps. And others on factories with very little evidence of trying to understand was both leadership. But immobilized democracy. Somehow i think that is his greatest contribution in certain since to the corporate even more than the strategy of the war itself. Kathy got her country to produce the weapons for the war. In turning around the economy and isolation of the economy rated one with that was distilled the midst of a depression and making it so productive is a great story. Host what about the white house diaries. Speech of this was one of my incredible tools there for anybody to see in the Roosevelt Library in there on microfiche. At the end of the day the white house usher who was her route would record everything that happened during the day. And they go to breakfast at 715 and we had lunch with the dinner with and then you can use that as a foundation to go example, suppose he had lunch with someone and i knew that they had diaries predict a good visit there diaries to find out what he talked about at lunch. They report that eleanors, and i knew that she had a diary. So in some ways it was like a detective to a party there for anybody to see. The public but had not been used before printing so easy and Wonderful Party to harold hickeys was the secretarys sons currently in mr. Clintons white house staff and he would healthy old prison at the time. And then the secretary of the treasury effect he was one of my favorite stories the book because roosevelt had annual poker game every year. In the rule was that whoever was ahead of the moment the speaker mouse called to turn, would win. One particular note, market he told responding to degenerate 930 and roosevelt said something is going. Sorry i cant talk to you i am in denial of a poker game. And finally admin i, roosevelt started running. And the phone rang. And he said oh mr. Speaker, youre injuring now. Roosevelt once again. Total manipulation. Everything is rated to the next morning. And Congress Actually adjourned at 930 was so angry that he actually resigned as secretary of the treasury. Until roosevelt turned back into it. It is a among these cabinet members of the time. To play poker together as well as work together. Host are members of the s residing at one point in fdr writing him a letter and respect. Doris he resigned several times. He had been upset about policy issues. But roosevelt wrote him a very great letter saying that you cant resign i need you for it is important. Absolutely right. Originally, i couldnt believe it. They did talk and show the kind of law in some ways that they felt for this man was still the president. Host is this your letter you think he gracefully replied. Makes me feel all fluttering. And youre right about me as you did is like an accolade into my spirit. Then he goes on. How did you go about this prayed for did you work. Doris works in terms of research at the roosevelt average three to wonderful thing. Is that it make you feel like youre going back in time because the house will roosevelt was born, the place where eleanors cottage there it looks exactly as it looked when they were there. As an engineer in the middle of working in a library room and you walk around these environments to meet and really feel like you back 50 years in time. So wonderful. You stay on classroom Roosevelt Library into feel like this is what youre supposed to be doing. Host wears a library. His speech of new york pretty for me massachusetts, was monitoring half hour drive. The hudson river far below. The house sits on a few feet from the library where he is more varies a bit of miles. Sear surrounded by beauty by doing this kind of openness and research. Hostwhat happened at the cottage that roosevelt had built for eleanor pretty the cottage actually was 22 grams. It was not a small luke cottage but what happened in 1920, after his affair with lucy. And then decided to Stay Together, they gave eleanor the freedom to go out side the marriage to find fulfillment. She became involved with the pogrom of women were activists. Fighting for preformed causes. And franklins mother always looked at these women they would come inside their saddle shoes on. And they were the kind of fancy people that she was used to. So learn to dont feel comfortable bringing her Women Political friends to the big house or franklin had lived. Sue 500 show the picture here of missus roosevelt, the mother the middle. Doris is a perfect picture. By franklin and eleanor got married, theyre about to townhouses in new york, one for her and one for them. And doris went right in between. So anyway what happened was roosevelt seeing how incredible honor felt about having preventative a house that was suggested that he would filter her own cottage. Internet beautiful 22 world room house. Another mild half or so from the big house. And led eleanor the first of an elective the home of her own. She loved it. Cheshire lived in the place after she after he died. Host how far from new york city doris probably couple of hours prayed by train is 11 hours along with the river. In dutchess county. Host in those years, the warriors to be writing about here where did the roosevelt spend their time besides the white house and the park. Doris the path of the most important place for both of them he would drink the whole presidency 200 times to the parks. That is the most important place pretty he would get the return pretty often get on the train in washington maybe at ten or 11 at night and i would reach i parked by the morning. So he would be asleep on the train pretty loved charlie what train. His own apartment pretty he didnt like fastmoving transportation and he hated airplanes. He feel grounded on the train pretty eleanor like to get places fast. So she only like to travel by plane. For she would go with him by train as well. Sue nieves what you did he die. 1945, april 12th. What year did he contracted polio and ff the leg irons. 1921 when he was only 37 years old. And contracted polio. Doris i understood more by doing this with that i am happy for was how much that paralysis was a part of his everyday life. On like so many people in the country have the feeling that he had conquered the pauly as a man was civilly left lane. But in fact he was a full parent apologetic. He had to turn his body to the side of the data being have to do is military by the valet to get to the bathroom. He couldnt walk. Braces on their feet made on the arms he can appear to be maneuvering himself forward. The most extraordinary moment when im doing research on the book, i interviewed betsy women who had been married to jimmy roosevelt. The results of the sun and she said she asked him once in the middle of the war, how do you sleep at night. And she said i need the polio still huge part of his imagination because he would describe the needed own method of counting sheep he would imagine his young boy again at the park and a favorite sledding hill behind the park. The presidency as he filings is the benign he would imagine his young boy get going on the sled and you every curve of the hill. Nobody get to the bottom of the hill the river, he would run to the top and do over and over again until he fell asleep rid of this man is the most powerful man in the world. Yet hes imagining and he falls asleep at night, is getting solace from thinking that he could run sled and walk again. The very things that were denied to him and 37 years old. Host we need to get to lucy, the story down some place here. At one point, you talk about when he would go from washington to hyde park, he figured out a way to stop and see her in new jersey. Doris she had an estate in new jersey. And somehow, he loved to figure out maps. He loved old geography. He would go along a different pattern. The secret service was a he could be safe pretty he was been enough in infancy. Some people as myself included company had known her all of his life. I know he was seeing her and was with her when he died. On them if you have an allknowing during that period of time. But the truth was he kept the pledged to eleanor until the last year of his life. And after anna had come back into the white house and after he was diagnosed with congestive are falling. In the last year of his life, believe he knew he was dying. And he went to bernard and i guess it was part of april 44 to recover. It is there that he saw lucy. Essentially for the First Time Since 1918. And she had just lost her husband. Who had been a very wealthy businessman comes from an old family and she was widowed. An when he saw her then, what he did more than anything was to know i can attempt a memory of what he was like when he was younger for the polio. And now before his heart was getting away, and he decided that he wanted to see her regularly rated. Host we start the original affair with her pretty. Doris she was a secretary working for eleanor. He was secretary of the navy. This was in 1914. Eleanor was worried about the whole Social Circle of invitations that we get to go to. She hired this young woman lucy who came from a blueblood family in washington. In the needed money because her father had been an alcoholic. So lucy came through four days a week hour for the roosevelt. Somewhere in the period of time, we 9014 in 1919, our relationship developed between lucy and franklin. As far as we know, it was sometime probably two or three years in the period of time between 14 and 19 that he came an abrupt end when eleanor have to come up on it of low lovers to franklin. She later said when she opened these letters that the bottom fell out of her world. And she actually offered franklin the divorce immediately. By then convinced, as last thing that he wanted pretty never met for the marriage to be over. In some ways think lucys attraction for for him was that she was confidence, and easy. Without or during the period of her life was still and so haunted by the insecurity zero started. Our mother had told her she was ugly whenever attention was a little girl her father was an alcoholic. Its hard for her to develop and to develop full since more stuff. So i take that franklin was attracted to this happy young woman. But the thought of losing eleanor was the last thing he wanted. Host techno states, what are the public no. Did they know about lucy in the polio and lucy and did they know about martha. Doris certain members of the press new. They knew they were unconventional so the relationships the white house. They certainly knew that roosevelt was a paraplegic and yes, there was a certain kind of sense that a persons private lifes private life. And most whatever he is doing has an impact on public activity, an old reporter said who are we to judge. Were not angels or celso wouldnt be supporting somehow to report on this unconventional relationships the white house. And as far as the paralysis goes, the majority of the people i decided that he was simply lame. It recent were allowed tos feel that way was on a single israel ever shot him as voltaire. I was braces, being crippled is almost like an unspoken code of honor they wasnt to be seen that way. They try to snap a picture of the present, they were actually carried from a car into a building. Yet they never took a picture. Like an older guy would knock the camera to the grant of the young guy did a pretty says a dignity to the office of the presidency then pretty is missing out. About the president side in the press. It wouldve never thought about talking about his mothers or feelings about lucy. I suspect it served better at the time. Host you also talk about before buying missus roosevelt column. She righted yourself pretty. Doris yes absolutely pretty if you read them from even see the only way it was possible for her to write that call was a recording of what she did during the day. The only reason column works, but that was not great moments of issues but it was so warm as the sheep was treated so full of activity. Her schedule is even more extraordinary than his. Her daily life would be twice as long as his. She never stopped. She traveled to margaret worker capshaw, she went into the minds of the minors. She went to visit blacks in the south, to camps, the kind of traveling gave her experiences that she could recount hundred daily column and tell people to thinking and feeling. Host what would happen if you moved into modernday america. Common everyday radio show. Handicapped affairs and all that. Its really scary to think about. She noted been allowed that network of friendships in the white house to allow them to sustain themselves or they were going through the depression in the war. They would not have been a struggle of leaders as they were. Convinced the roosevelt needed the relaxation examples we said earlier, that he could provide when eleanor was there but suppose the present saying, who is this woman. She left him the secretary whats going on here. Can you imagine the press getting this. Harrys living thereto. I think its unwise and if we have not had at that time the god of space for the private lives, it would not have been replenished as political leaders. The paralysis more interesting you almost wish that roosevelt had the courage to go to the public and say to the public i am crippled its okay. And left him so much in part because of his courage and strength braided only in the end of his office he give a speech sitting down pretty finally excused himself rated and for se reason that speech made an enormous emotional impact of the country. Because they been saw he was conquering this disability. How much time did he spend in georgia pretty during the last president ial years, and the war, only three or four times right above prior to the war he would down every thanksgiving. He had an annual dinner the patients. It originally created the whole warm springs rehabilitation center. In 1920 he went on there the hot springs he came out of the ground naturally that area. It was thought to help people with folio. So week. The whole rehab center and also patients will be down there. I think somehow i think that confidence help them to get through their own polio. In selective spend everything skipping them. Host did you go to all of these places. Doris is such a primitive setting. You look at the white house which is what they called the house the roosevelt was tank pretty sick tiny living room dining room, went to my room, his bedroom was the size of the small boys bedroom. In one of their bedroom that the hand would say and what are the guest room was sacred and that says predict he keep thinking and imagining about much more luscious the running for president of the United States predict 20 love the simplicity of it. And kevin bala was the place and admit his mothers estate. Its off the border of maine in canada. A beautiful summer home very much part of eleanor franklins early romantic days but also the place where he got polio. They didnt really travel there is much longer after those early years. They went there a lot in the teens and 1920s but after he got polio, franklins wife eleanor would go there a lot because she loved it but he did not go back there are much after that. Critical impact when he is a child. Not only an only child, but his father was a sickly man from the time he was young. His mother was a very young mother who was told she could never have the children. So all of her love which is large, not focused on this child. And think about it sometimes, i think she give him probably the greatest test of the mother can give a child that sense of unconditional love that because he was so important to her, she never let them the freedom to feel like he could stand apart from her pretty had the feeling as she hovered over him all his life you know that maybe is that the source of his confidence, what my favorite quotes by churchill says that when he met roosevelt read and such inner confidence sparkle theres like opening the first bottle of champagne to be around him. I think thats the great gift mother gives a child but its only she had known, think he wouldve had an easier time with intimacy with other people. Host the two big chairs by the fireplace, one is franklin, no chair for eleanor. Doris the tourist, if it is natural, that is what ficklin said pretty and eleanor would sit wherever she could find a chair. Sarah was on one end and franklin as at the other end and once again eleanor just had to find a place where she could. A big house and she remained the mistress of that house. Theres a sad moment when eleanor was to change houston round allude to make it her house and franklin cant bear the thought of making any changes to the home. Host will get a closer shot of this but shows the bedrooms on the second floor. You franklin bedroom and an elder roosevelt bedroom and thats where his mother stayed. How often where they all there together predispute if sarah was also always there. The relative size of those bedrooms, when you see franklins, very large spacious and he sees harris, very large spacious and eleanor has a single bed and one must the dressing room for one of the bedrooms in between the two of them. As a part of eleanor she obviously didnt have to take room but there was a part of her like a marcher. I like to have tough conditions to live up to as a challenge because she had been used to those as a child. I found the part very sad. Lucy died in 57. Doris eleanors secretary. Host died at 61. Princess martha died 53 prayed lorena hickox tied it 75 buried in anna the daughter done it 64. Doris she was pretty young to pretty. Doris when he was at the end of new deal, he was diagnosed cancer of the stomach. Almost his entire stomach was removed. But somehow he got an extra leaf on life. Roosevelt medium is foreignpolicy advisor. Somehow able to get through most devoted died from prayed his body was being eaten away. I think what happened is after roosevelt died, there is no longer room for him in public life, and he himself finally died. Symbols like churchill saves it probably white house pretty it was so full of fire and energy and kept them alive but his body was to be away on him pretty think she too had had illnesses during her 40s. She died relatively young in her 50s. The sea tuberculosis spread something that happened to them. Is really strange. Especially as we get older is so weird to see people die so young. He was 63 when he died. And eleanor lasted from 1882 to 1961. So she was 70 something or other. She lasted an extra 17 years after fdrs death. Host how many kids were there. Doris thats on a happy story. There were five children. Daughter and i was the oldest. There were four sons. Jimmy, elliot, john, franklin junior and i think what happened is it was hard for the five of them to grow up in the shadow of the giant oak of the parents. In the four boys, actually the five children had a combination of 18 marriages between them. Think that a hard time to becoming people in their own rights is going to skip steps suddenly become important. Run for Senate Governor is apt to see happen you never got their own confidence on their own. Host and a married twice. Her second husband jim said of her hotel room. New york city. Doris gives a manicdepressive pretty was under sedation for his psychological illness. They had already separated but he was always trouble predict even during their marriage. My one and only pretty most precious pretty feel them cleaning to each other and almost a natural way. He thought he no longer had a platform of the roosevelt presidency to stan another president roosevelt that he can make his way in the publishing world anymore god so sad that he jumped out of the window and killed himself. I talked to all three men as children. Eleanor, her oldest daughter to guide him Curtis Roosevelt the second child. And then the sons pretty. Host john died at age 55. A died republican. Doris is the only one who became a republican. Much to the dismay of the family. He did have his fathers charming people who knew him said when he smiled, you can see fdr rated sparkling personality all again. He did have some success in politics and in fact was very instrumental John Kennedys campaign in West Virginia because roosevelt was still magic name in West Virginia at the time of the 1960 selections. It was considered one of the things that turned the tide. Host only married five times. Tided 880 and 1990. Was he like pretty. Doris up and get a chance to talk to him before he died. That twinkle in the blue eyes he hadnt had a time finding himself pretty think alcoholism is an elders family had visited some upon elliott. His mayor and populate maybe what he did he wrote mystery stories. And eleanor was the detective. In eleanors mother becomes a detective. That sort of a tellall book about the family. And all of the other kids found disquieting. Hostyou wonder what eleanor woue thought pretty had four marriages to pretty he had success is a congressman from california. Then he never was able to hold onto his career or to his family rated it is not been an easy time for any of this children. Host would you mind jumping to the end and telling is much as you can remember about the last couple of days of fdr. Speech of what happened was that after he came back from the conference after he gave his major speech of the congress, in march of 1945, everybody can see his health was failing. Somehow when he went to georgia, their noise been this thing that he would recuperate gregory down there. Something about the air on the beauty and the simplicity. They decided to make an extended trip. The end of march he went down to warm springs. They brought with him this cousins and these are characters. In the captive company he didnt have that much work to do when he was down there. For the first week or so, seem like he might be getting a little bit of his bounce back against weight back. And then at a certain point he and voided the city to come and stay with him and she arrived about four or five days before he died. Stated guesthouse red cross away from his little white house. And brought with her painter fred who wanted to do a portrait of roosevelt. And then what happens is he seems to be Getting Better tasty slowly driving trips with lucy. If they replace we can see that whole valley rated and lucy they wrote that she would never forget that day when he talked to about all the plans he had after the presidency was over what he has to do with the world and still ideally left about what the world would be like of the war was over. At the end of april 12, he woke up and people surprisingly thought that he looked better than he had for weeks. His color was radiant thomas. Probably it was pretty mentalism later killed him was beginning to be felt in his skin and his coloring. Nevertheless he kept everybodys company, a wonderful storyteller. He was talking to lucy and her friend all the morning. And they were painting a portrait of him. And then suddenly at the middle of talking to them in about ten or so, he just suddenly said, have a terrific headache. And he slumped forward. One of the cousins whenever to them thinking he had dropped his cigarette or something. Then she realized that he had become unconscious. Immediately the culture doctors, the call for help they carried him into his bedroom. In this he knew enough to live at the moment in time. She knew she shouldnt be there so she and madame moved theft. He died about an hour and a half later pretty never regained consciousness. And finally called Eleanor Palmer that he was in the middle of getting a speech in washington which, she said the minute the coming she knew something happened. They just did yet come back to the white house immediately. Host to call her away. See tip should actually just finished given a speech in somebody was giving a piano concert rated she had this amazing presence print she said i must leave now. Twenty the white house. And they told her he had died. She later called for the Vice President to come. So you give them the news. Truman says, is there anything i can do in our first responses the output is there anything i can do for you. Because youre the one in trouble now. Then she asked to use the governments claim to see the body. And they provided that for her. So she gets down there and georgia and as she was there, she asked her cousins who were there, to me everything that happened in the last 24 hours. And laura believe have always loved fdr probably always been jealous of eleanor some sheep maliciously decided to tell eleanor that lucy was there. And then pushed further she elected to tell her that lucy had been at the white house the last year and the nana her daughter had been the one to make those arrangements rated i can even imagine one of us would like for eleanor to have to present the strong case in the world that she did a getting is a train going back with her as the image train ride. Knowing inside the deep hurt that she felt. And it was there the white house. In she said how could you do this to me. All the nana said, i didnt know what to do. I love both. It felt caught in a crossfire rated time later said that they thought for sure theyd destroyed the relationship forever. I felt so sad that emotionally decided to follow the story into the fall of the 45 after the death and think automotive is able to find is that as eleanor traveled the country in the summer. Everywhere she went people kept telling her how much they loved her husband. People that she thought or her, the poor people. Father lives are so much better off at the end of the war. And at the start. She wanted social reform pretty she kept wanting more than he can provide the nap she saw, the country was indeed a better place, the blacks had worked factories and never had before. It did well in the military and women had this great source of mastery. Veterans were going to college this g. I. Bills of rights. Stronger than before. And she said as she heard all these tales she begin to a sense of how much the country owed to Franklin Roosevelt and she felt that, she was about amazingly able able to forgive him for what happened. And then finally in august of 45, after the bomb was dropped, she was able to go in the work included tubes able to go to and her daughter forgive her. It really lasted for the rest of their lives the msa is biographer what i learned that my heart just felt so full knowing this woman is been something a measure i couldve done. Is i have the kind of spirit to forgive such a deep hurt like that. But the rest of her life, instead of hovering bitterness she loved him even more than. And she was able to incorporate all his strength into herself. Joyce been the idealistic one. He thought about what can be done and she thought about what could be done and she became partly more like him after he died. A much better politician after her death but now she had to be both of them. Not just yourself. It is amazing and to the story it makes you realize if you look to the story from the outside in, itd if gives him of infidelity or harassment. It may be accused anna of the trail of her mother and that none of those labels would be right. These people never meant to hurt one another. There was simply trying to get through their lives predict with love and respect and work with affection. It seems to me that challenge is not to do what is prevalent today a biography to expose and to label and discourage predict but i really wanted to do is to extend empathy to understand where they needed all of these relationships enough to judge them harshly because of their own human needs. Host you have references to the fact that she went into standby his body buried in warm springs. And have moments by herself and when she got to the white house, she did the same thing. Doris one of the ushers at the white house when she was there when she asked him to close the door was actually inside of the room and he wrote in a memoir, they saw that as she went by the body she opened the casket one last time so that she could say goodbye to him privately. He was sitting right there writing he rode in a memoir. So people run with those last minutes, everybody kept someone in the diary. Knowing how important it would be for later history. Host you also included a letter. What did you get that. Speaking of that letter was in and his papers at the fdr library. Never published before. Son of anna had written a wonderful little book about his mother and his father and his fathers death. As a time id ever seen a letter published. After fdr died, and i felt so, she thought she lost both her father and her mother and then some point she called this a and is he then maybe three or four weeks after fdrs death, trace back into this fabulous letter saying with a comment she too was feeling totally out of it. His men that she had loved. And she couldnt even express publicly or openly anything about the relationship additional part of the funeral. She just often run but in the letter she said anna, let you know how much your father loves you. She tells anna, how many times and his father fdr had talked to lucy about a much he loved his daughter. Afraid daughter who had lost her father so much to hear that confirmed i guess was so imported that is under told me that anna kept that letter in her bedside table for the rest of your life. Somehow it confirmed literally amateur father left her brood not feeling too guilty about putting lucy together with her father be as it shows with a wonderful thought woman she was. Speech of not only emotional we live with these characters for six years. It took me longer to work on this book. I would find myself talking to franklin and eleanor pretty as if they were still alive pretty really feel the presence. And when bad things happen to them, and one hearse another one. You feel it braided that the only way you can do it. Host where did you write it pretty. Doris the study on the second floor of my house. We live in the main street in concord. I fill it with pictures of them end of the war. The pictures of the woman going to work in the factories. So really felt like world war ii. Like all of the books i defined. I love libraries. In this case i wanted to be able to have the books as much presence. So whats the use books are so the whole room was full of these folks. I feel and i write in longhand. I cannot think on a typewriter. Never been able to print so i write out in longhand. And then copy it all over so that the typist can read the writing. Thats when i edit is my copy it all over. Then i give it to typist would type it all out. On our computer give it back to me. Then until look at it all into the first draft is done. And then finally at the very end when i have to really edit the thing we put it all on my husbands computer and he taught me how to actually work in the computer to edit predict im not sure i could still write on it. But i can edit on it. So i felt very proud. And i usually start early in the morning to write pretty we get up early in the morning. For some reason hell awake at 530 or six the morning to get me up to have breakfast with him. Sometimes we work out for in one of those moods then people start working pretty early. Even sometimes prefer the kids go to school 7 00 oclock and we work until like the middle of the afternoon and then go play tennis or go to someplace. This offend think about having a husband who is in the same light of this you take breaks together. Host six years of research project. How long did take it right it pretty. Doris probably four of them were research and two of them were writing. And even in the last two years of writing, you come upon something and you would have to go back to high park. I was probably the library for within weeks of finishing the book. I my favorite thing in the book is the discovery that eleanor and franklin still loved each other during this period of time. Conventional wisdom of historians were in 1918 through marriage had become a pure political partnership. I was so happy to discover, that there was still alive emotions. They kept listening to each other. Ms kept telling like i wanted to push them together. I was very glad to find that out. Did you know john f. Kennedy. Doris no, im an immuneonce as a young girl. Host was the closest to go to the residence. Doris i never saw franklin or owner personally. The two sons by interview before the died. And all the children of those children who were very hatful to me. Host of the three books in all of the thinking about these politicians, whos your favorite. Doris lyndon johnston. Enough for the reasons you might think. Think watching him in those last years of his life was on his ranch, and experience to see a man had no other resources in the swipe of politics to me he didnt know how to get through the days of politics. [laughter]. Meetings in the morning to figure out what to do in the day. Which cows were going to be given an inch medicine. Which tractors. Have to have meetings but no longer of the deals of the hill. Like a ranch. He could not go to sleep at night until he knew how many people were coming through the library. Such as well he said he would give them free donuts and coffee to come. People he was so sad he couldnt be alone. He would ask me to stay outside of his room when he took an app. And it 23 years old you would think at the end of the most exciting thing in the world would be to become president. But yet he had not balanced that success with family love friendships force anything else. So that it left him so lonely at the end, it was make me know that the success of the price would not be worth it. And then watching him die, got in american children. I wanted to be with our kids while they were little. I didnt ever want to be left like him. So theres no question that had such an impact. When president carter was present he has been at peace corps but the kids were little and remember Lyndon Johnson. And i just would feel too sad if i couldnt be with my children they would grow up too quickly. I was born in new york. Rockefeller rockville not rockefeller. My family originally came from brooklyn. They moved up to long island braided my real love of history started with baseball when my father taught me how to play ball one oh seven years old. The brooklyn dodgers games. And i thought without me he would never know with this coursework. I was so proud when i was doing everyday. This probably restarted the love history. And i would to kobe college in maine. I went to harvard graduate. My thesis was in constitutional law. It was on overturn Supreme Court decisions. Prayer in schools. In the amendment failed in both cases. My husband and i will parking the book together. The base mistake he made was working on the book with his wife. They got divorced. My husband and i are going to do about to get about president ial decisions. In getting civil rights of the congress. It each one will be told us the story. I wanted to be a dramatic moment in that presence like. So young person writing in college begin a history of the presidency with through these great decisions. If. Host what you can think of all of this. Doris because weve been home so much of the time when we were, they have not really seen the end result. Until now, as teenagers for the see this book out. See the father in the movie and is being is a 27 yearold. And somehow that sense of pride so it is not like a career where the contracting daily, who their parents are. We been much more quiet and at home. I did television at home so people are much more aware because i do local commentator. I do a Weekly Television show the different 12 years. People will know me from that. So the kids are up sort of preemie to knowing that i get stopped all of the time. It was the been the most fabulous thing to combine the two. Host 20 go up to fdrs home you see the library in the home and then a couple of miles away eleanor roseville is been a lot of her time. If you read thoughts about the kind of the family feeling with been. Doris was so striking and sing the two different places is how different they are. Theres a big house perfectly put together everything matches the furniture is gorgeous pretty and elinors house was all mismatched. You know how opposite their temperament was she like to make people feel a decently the elegance. It in some ways they were never meant for each of the rethink of the country and for themselves, the opposite timbers attracted when they were young and had enough to keep them going through this long marriage. Host how about the relationship between women friends. We think the relationship was pretty. Doris where eleanor was loved by somebody critically arena for the first time she felt the center of somebody elses life. As the people of claimed the movie she was a lesbian. I dont think thats necessarily so pretty think the most important thing to understand that this woman lofgren she loved her and helped her become a better first lady. The truth is they dont know whether they went beyond xoxox. I think elinor would be the first person that she came back today, and in than are considered a lesbian, and role models younger people. She probably would be the first to say thats fine but i dont think she wouldve ever defined yourself that way. Host in ordinary time is the title of this book. By the warriors in the home front with fdr and Eleanor Roosevelt. Thank you. This was such a good one. Doris thank you pretty. And youre watching tv on cspan to undertaking the next several hours to show you some programs with Award Winning historians doris goodman. Shes appeared on cspan and look to be over 60 times and coming up next, from 2015, she system to talk about the brooks and take your calls on our in depth program. Doris Kearns Goodwin. Abraham lincoln, more than john kennedy Franklin Roosevelt Ronald Reagan the mind. Why. Doris and we wanted to live with him and i just had to have a leap of faith that i can find something that would be like one unvoiced. But they take so long of the last one took six years. This is going to be a big part of my life. I want to know about the civil war. He was the best companion i couldve ever imagined. At first i just read, i kept reading and reading and reading. I hope to the beginning to do a book the way had done with eleanor franklin. But she couldnt hold the public side of the story the way eleanor did braided i realized that he would spend even more time with the memories of the cabinet. He was almost married to them more produce such an intense time. They would go to the front, they would relax together tonight. Then when it turned out that they were rivals beforehand, i finally realized ive got my story. Host history came out years ago about lincoln. Whats the difference between the book and this one. Doris is not so much a primary resource. Theres a lot of good stuff. But he had more huge chapter on stuart and on minors related narrative. They were intertwining them all from the beginning to the end. Host you know dealing with the 19th century figures this book opposed to 20th century figures. Of americans destined to leave behind the 18th century world of their fathers. Nonetheless social and economic forces shaped their path and marked a number of similarities. House so quick. Called the american experiment of democracy was still new so a new generation was coming along. So its not surprising they entered political life. 10000 people may come to a debate and listen to the for our talks. So that is what shaped all of them. They all wanted to be lawyers to be politicians to participate in our country. Host why did he become a running mate to Abraham Lincoln . Wednesday got there and the convention decided it was Abraham Lincoln they were looking for balance knowing that they would it be willing to accept the vice presidency. It was a very powerful they said we will wait until the next tim time. Host who was William Seward . Is my favorite. He remains of churchill he could drink, smoke, parties at his house was so much wine even and the southerners would feel good about the northerners and people that he would be the nominee. The most celebrated names to me people came to his house waiting for the news that champagne was already uncorked he was disappointed and then controlling can and then they became great friends then realizing he was a special character than their friendship is the most surprising part of the book he would practice jokes he couldnt deliver with the use and a very selfrighteous character he wanted to be president so much even when lincoln made him secretary of treasury and to maneuver against him as a statesman from missouri thinking he could be president because he came from a border state. That then he got married to the woman he loved so much he could not bear being away from her. Why am i doing this . I miss you. He wasnt a way for very long because they had 17 children so in men wrote about history they barely mention a have a wife or family that you can see he lost three young lives at 22 and 25 and 30 his daughter marys wealthy older man and then she dies in poverty. I love the stories of the wife and husband. None lived to adulthood. You dedicate the book to your husband to whom this book is dedicated and i argued with him what did you argue about . If lincoln was doing the right thing. And we would decide if i was trying to be critical i would say this is wrong or right and it was fantastic. We are both writers. We both work at home and it was fantastic. I would give him pages every da day. Host that he thought as deeply of lincoln as anyone. Did he inspire you . I came up with the idea. Once i came up he was a speechwriter for kennedy and Lyndon Johnson and understands the value of words but as a wordsmith and a speaker to the nation. Who came up with the title . That was a problem we wanted to call it master among men. But he was a great emancipator it seemed that could be a worrisome word i always do the sub genius to be this title that this was always the working titles we just went back to it team of rivals which is what it is about. Host our conversation the next three hours we have Doris Kearns Goodwin. You talk about Abraham Lincoln in the last conversation with johnson. He was reading the biography and he couldnt do it and he said if he can bring lincoln to live in his mind then no one would remember him. He was so questioning if anybody would remember him. Now to spend so many hours with this man. He had done so much with civil rights but felt his career was destroyed by the war in vietnam. Thats what propelled me to understand the public figure. One was this photograph taken . Selected as a white house fellow. That is false here in the back of my head. But i did dance with president johnson when we were selected but i was a graduate student at harvard. Enacted in the anti Vietnam War Movement i wrote that after i was selected as a fellow it was how to get rid of Lyndon Johnson. I was sure he would kick me out he said bring her down for a year and if i cant win her over no one can. I worked for him and helped him on the memoirs. Host you said that of course theyd dance at harvard. I know what goes on up there they can dance with you like i am right now. And he twirled me and had a weird habit to stand closer to human beings so i felt like i was in his chest have the time and when ideas he would pick me up off the floor. Host lets go to the phone calls. First ohio good morning. Caller good morning. I pitch on purchase the book two days ago. Lincolns ability to reach out to political rivals. Can you comment on the impossibility of that happening now . It would be much harder now. So the minute the president is elected he thinks of the second term. And lincolns day really had a single term so they werent obsessed about winning the other thing is they are all rivals of one another. And then talking to postmaster player can you imagine what would happen tonight that they say the things about each other . I wish it were possible. What it meant he has all the different aspects moderates and conservatives together. And in review of the book they say comparable to george w. Bush. As his chief person knowing he would have a platform the first time around. If you have people who will argue that hone your skills and then to worry about the next election it will come to you. Host kansas city. Caller is there any Historical Documents how lincoln dealt with the savagery dad happened as a byproduct and those that did a lot of butchery . Did he do anything to stop it . How was his feelings about those rivalries . It was hard for lincoln. At some point they decide in the north the only way it could be one with that capacity to make war. And then to be sold and then i suspect that was a terrible byproduct. But even more people would die if he didnt. I was a one of a series of people who helped him on his memoirs and thats the best part. I went to the ranch and stayed with him while he was beginning to teach at harvard but just to listen to him recollect is to listen for hours because originally he was going to write a trilogy so a lot of our conversations were over his whole life. The story was so fantastically colorful even though i like listening to his tall tales. I wonder how Doris Kearns Goodwin felt upon the publication as one of a dozen who aided in research and writing and editing. Know there were far more and people working on that memoir they were doing it fulltime and only on those two chapters but then you put down what he said in some form. I thought that was more than enough of a recommendation. And naked men with no president ial covering a pretender to the throne and then there was texas,. And felt in graphic language it mustve been like to know that he loved kennedys so much if he had something to do with the assassination and the murder of the murderer. Even with all of that pressure he achieved an extraordinary transition that the 1965 was a great year if only not in vietnam he would be remembered as a great president. Is a stores Kearns Goodwin . You are my hero. I dropped out of school, professor. And then i went back and i started to study history. The more i learned the more i warmed up to it. So historians can look at something with their interpretation. If you get them in a room and they dont agree but i want to ask how exactly they go about gathering evidence. It seems like he had the ability to look outside of himself and how other people saw him. And i always wondered about that. What about Stephen Ambrose or plagiarism . Thank you. You are right to look at himself is stretched from the enormous confidence and also a remarkable sense of humor. Part of that is the ability to laugh at oneself and that was a great quality. When historians write history we go back and look at as many primary sources as we can. And then we tried to figure out with those different conflicting ideas how do i think he responded or didnt respond. Its a complicated process putting together a huge book like this. And thousands of footnotes and sometimes what can happen even though i man absolute credit and i dont but the quotation marks in the right place. I credited her and they said she was right and corrected in the next edition and moved on. It is part of the process but its worth it to put the sources together to give a narrative to make the people come alive. Host what was the biggest lesson from the fitzgerald and the kennedys . Back to acknowledge the error. Right knowledge it and corrected it to the authors satisfaction. When it became public again i acknowledged it again. You cant change the past but just in this book that everything is checked but what can you do other than that . Host 100 pages of footnotes and bibliography . The reason for that would be true even if it didnt happen. There are so many primary sources a very Generous Group of scholars so when you find new things you want to put in the footnote the sources that they can look after themselves. It is a sharing process. I hope the lincoln scholars will be happy and someone will say i can find the source. Host after it was revealed january 2002 it taught you about your own fallibility. Absolutely. You cant be perfect i like to believe i deal fairly with the characters and im not mean that make sure you credit every source fully and appropriately and you do it right. Host fitzgerald kennedys was delayed by two years for the new documents. Teddy kennedy gave us access to 150 cartons that were in the attic at hyannisport over 50 years and she saved almost everything. Movie cards, check stubs, letters, it was a way into the Kennedy Family i would not have had without that. Not too fast it took me almost ten years. Host had time spent in different units could have been a politician. No question. Three kids are at the top. And they were considered the golden trio and then the retarded daughter rosemary and eunice took care of everybody else in the closest she had intensity and drive and was the leader of the kennedys of that Younger Group and said if she was a boy she would have been the one to run for office much more outgoing than jack but she has done remarkable things with the Special Olympics and with mental retardation as a result. Kathleen . She was a rebel she fell in love with the duke and she married him even though he was protestant and then sell in love again after he died she was beautiful and feisty and had her own life apart from the kennedys more than most other family members. Host in the book you write how joe senior came down and told his family of the death of joe junior. It was a blow never to be restored. Joe junior was the one they thought would be president of the United States much more socially at ease and more handsome and all the families hopes were put on him when they found out he was killed in a plane crash in world war ii. People that think he would survive joe senior said he wasnt so sure and he didnt know if he could take it. It was a break never restored in the families. What do they tell you about that afternoon . Somebody came to the door and there was a sense of not wanting to believe it which i guess is true for anybody but you know the minute somebody comes in what they are about to tell you. They finally separated and try to make the best of it but a lot of joe juniors friends and colleagues and said what a wonderful leader he was. So that gave a certain solace. Host phoenix go ahead. Caller to my nervousness i will ask and then hang up. Number when you try to write the books even though you are accused of some things every time you are on i watch you. And i think you give credit to president johnson. Everybody thinks kennedy did all these things to help the poor and minorities but it was actually johnson and doesnt get the credit. Going back to lincoln, you said you try to write the biographies without a bias lincoln raped and tortured the United States constitution more than any other president in the history of man. Habeas corpus, locking up newspaper writers, jailing people who spoke out against him in the north, not the south. I havent read your book did you include the fact he violated the United States constitution . If george bush did that now people would be calling for impeachment Abraham Lincoln wanted to centralize the government. I think its the worst the country has ever committed against itself. But i believe slavery could have been reconciled with the north paying the south and at fort sumter it wasnt to say you cant have slaves but we will quintuple the amount of taxes you pay on, and thats when shots were fired lincoln violated the constitution like no other president hands before or after and to me thats one of the most important legacies of his administration. Its terrible when anybody is killed but John Wilkes Booth supposedly was from a good family and a very intelligent man with good connections would say he destroyed the constitution. I will talk to a series of those what he thought he was preserving was not simply the union or even emancipating the slaves. He believed that the south would secede the whole experiment of democracy would be destroyed the slavery would stay in the south and the west would secede from the east and everyone in the world would be delighted this beacon of hope of america that ordinary people could govern themselves would be undone. No question in were time Civil Liberties suffered and when he undid habeas corpus he had his reasons. The troops were coming to Washington People in maryland were preventing him from getting there so we had to do their duty had its not an excuse. Even in times of emergency is when you have to be most protective of the constitution. But without the civil war slavery would have continued and it was an abomination and everything we stood for in the world would have been undone a lot of people had to die war time is a mess. War is hell the most would argue that was a war that had to be fought. Host you write to be honored for the slaying of caesar he believed he would be exalted for killing a greater tyrant and assassinating lincoln would not be enough. The conspiracy was foiled by mark antony who made outlaws of the assassins in the martyr of caesar to paraphrase William Harry seward was lincolns mark antony. John wilkes booth had a triple assassination plot it wasnt enough to kill lincoln but to decapitate the entire structure and then they went to the hotel and started drinking and never got to the Vice President s hotel but seward met them in the park across the white house he was in bed with the jaw wired up so he pretended he had medicine and made his way upstairs his son wouldnt let him into the bedroom so he had seward son with a revolver fractured his skull went into a, and then he had a nice went to sewards bed and slashed off his cheek the only reason he didnt die he had a wire from his job he went down and two more people so was a buddy massacre so he was hoping to undo the Vice President and president and secretary of state it would give hope. Host he survived and his son survived but six weeks later francis was dead. A woman way ahead of her time, very smart, very idealistic always pushing him to do what could be done shes always frail a lot of these women had these vapors but she had a fail constitution after attending to her son and has been for weeks and she wrote her papers she never before believed in vicarious suffering but maybe she had taken on their illnesses and she was going to die and she died inexplicably is six weeks later. Host team of rivals. The next call is from virginia go ahead. Caller my question is how does she come to something fresh in the link on lincoln biography . So many other scholars how do you find something fresh . I am africanamerican as well but theres one that wrote a story that forced into glory. Cant a particular racial bias or gender bias come into ones writing . Is that something fresh that a woman historian could bring to lincoln or maybe her male counterparts could not . I would like to think thats possible when i first started i had no faith i could find something fresh and nothing mattered more when the great Herbert Donald said that this was as fresh as if it was the first but the only thing that gave me a chance was that all these guys because they kept diaries they were gossiping about lincoln and each other and had insight that wasnt always used in the lincoln biographies because i cared about their wives and families a try to make them into human beings so maybe that is partly a womans perspective in the 19th century they didnt think of wives and families. But forced into glory there are comments he did say some things in the 18 fifties. It is true he wasnt sure they could be on juries were ever achieve a quality in the United States. Not as if he didnt wish this would happen but wasnt sure if we were ever capable. But there was pervasive racism as a whole. Very little belief that plaques could be equal to whites. It is a sad commentary to where america was in taking 150 years beyond that to get to the point to break down segregation still have prejudice in this country. Mary todd was the bella springfield. She was 22 he was in illinois even lincoln and douglas were in the same circle. Mary todd as a young girl she had so much sadness we think of an older woman losing three of her four children one died at three years old one died in the civil war another at 18 and then eventually plan to an asylum by her oldest son robert he didnt think she was stable enough but when she was dating Stephen Douglas a feisty conversationalist and educated and love politics and poetry. There is a wonderful story when lincoln first saw her said mary i would love to dance with you in the worst way and she said he certainly did it was awkward. [laughter] host she said she considered Stephen Douglas to be the little little giant next to my husband who towers over douglas even physically. She said that during the 18 fifties when he would be not only the opponent in the senate race but in 60 for the president ial race. Stephen douglas was short so he was called the little giant because he had a big heart on a big head. But she believed very early on she was his partner, she had faith in him i dont think he needed her to have ambition. Because ever since that would have carried him through even if he never married anybody. Host did have dealings with Stephen Douglas as president . Yes. Afterwords once the war had started douglas was close to dying that he came to the white house and offered complete services saying this is not a time for partisanship and thats a moment to remember because thats the last time they saw each other. Presumably he had difficulties of alcohol and i think his body was ravaged. Unlike most people at that time very few candidates stumped on their own it wasnt considered dignified. But he went all over the country trying to win the election and that wore his body down. Host how did you put all of this together . Showing your library in concorde massachusetts but whats the process . One great essay is its important what you are writing not to get paralyzed to do too Much Research if i had gone on five or six years not writing a word i would say what will i do . It took a couple years to figure out i word write about these rivals so i was doing research on lincoln but once i figured out the storyline i wanted to start me of 1860 when they were waiting to hear they were nominated for the presidency of the Republican Party. Wrote that chapter just to have a beginning then a new out go back to their earlier lives so i did the research on childhood and young adulthood so i could write the section i would work an additional month with a new chapter and then write it and thats why it stretched out to ten years. Host one viewer from Madison Wisconsin has a question. I am from Madison Wisconsin. Do you remember any specific teachers that taught you to love the stories of history . Yes. In some ways there was a woman named and she won the award of best history teacher in the state she made us feel like she cared passionately. And she cried when she talked about his death and the Civil Rights Movement and a dignified and wonderful woman. And those that made you feel that even plato was alive. But then to make you realize youre not really about people who were dead or long gone but people who had passions and problems and then they come along and i was lucky enough to have those two great teachers. Host what did you learn about yourself . Because my parents died when i was young it was as if somehow they were not alive in my life in the same way. And to be able to share their lives i thought i would be writing a book about baseball. But i remembered my father was the First Teacher i ever had he taught me how to keep score when i was only six years old so i could record for him the dodger game. Every single night he spends two hours he counted every play of every inning you think its magic about history. I learned that narrative art because i would blurt out the dodgers won or lost. And it was so many years from the time that she died and not able to leave her house very much but every night she would read to me as long as i could stay awake. And then to listen to stories. And then to keep her talking about the days that was young before the rheumatic fever said and then the staging process would stop. And then to say tell me about a story when you are our age. Slowly and deliberately lingering over the passages she liked with the pleasure of the wellchosen words. She modulated her voice for the characters and narration and also her voice was softer than yours. How did you get the nickname bubbles . My father like to think i was enthusiastic. And get excited when i was going someplace. Everybody knew he was calling me on. And what was wonderful in those days they were so close to one another. Hers is on the second floor and in those days in the 19 fifties there were giant dodger and yankee fans. And baseball was the abiding passion. Michael Francis Aloysius kearns. I love that man so much. He had a difficult childhood. His father was a fireman in brooklyn. Little brother and a little sister and mother was pregnant and his mother died and then the little brother hit by a trolley car. Left with his little sister and his father killed himself and a little sister at 16 died in a dentist chair with faulty anesthesia. You think he would have a sad mentality but the most optimistic and outgoing twinkle in his eye and gave affirmative life for all of us. You write a lot about your first holy communion. It was because two things have happened the dodger catcher came to my town i was so excited the first time to see that player but it was announced he would speak in a protestant church. You think if you step foot you will be struck dead. And then to speak but i was worried i traded the life of my soul so i went to my first confession i had to say what i thought was a sin. The priest told me dont worry its not to send you are not in a religious service but then i had to acknowledge i wish harm to others that the new york yankee players and break their arms and he said how often do you make these wishes and then i said every night. He said i love the dodgers you dont have to wish harm on others to make them when and they will man on around. And then he said say a special prayer for our brooklyn dodgers. In nine seasons one competed for the world series. And then the giants and the dodgers left today not . It was such a blow for us to loved baseball we would always argue who is the best and now these two teams were gone. I didnt follow baseball for so many years i was so saddened until i finally moved to Harvard College. I was wondering about this series that lincoln was a depressive. I find that very hard to believe as someone who has had experience with depression they just dont have the energy to overcome it the way they said that lincoln did so im wondering what your findings are or lincoln being a depressive. I think he was born with a melancholy temperament a great friend of mine wrote a wonderful book studying children zero through 20 you can tell how life can change but he knew how to get himself out of it he knew to go to confrontation and he will go to a play to get his mind off of what he was doing and it was only two episodes in his life first was after and rutledge died and then when the three things came together and he felt like his life force was not Going Forward and broke his engagement with mary todd and lost his best friend and his political career was going down so he did fall into a depression so deep they thought it would be suicidal but he told his friend i would just as soon die but i havent done anything yet to be remembered by. I think that powered him that he had Terrific Energy more than the cabinet guys that were not depressed and kept them going so i think that melancholy temperament is different than depression. Host considering the association with johnson and the release of the white house tapes, how do you ultimately view his political acumen as compared . There are similarities to make people come around the johnson had a much more handson policy those tapes are fantastic showing when he was trying to get the Civil Rights Act dirksen is the republican minority leader he needs him to break the filibuster and then promises everything under the sun. But then essentially what he says 99 years from now they will be flying your banner into hundred years the children will know only two names. So he knew how to persuade people. There is a very funny story. In some years ago and said i know that you knew Lyndon Johnson as a young girl and that when nixon got into the presidency he asked him to go to the ranch and said johnson was working on his memoirs and said how my supposed to remember what happened 20 years ago . The only chapters that are good are the ones in my oval office so those come alive said go tell your friend nixon theres nothing more important and thereby nixon contributes. I love that stories. You say after he left the presidency how is it possible they could be so ungrateful to me after i have given them so much . He knew that she had done for civil rights in poor people and education. But the last months and years the Public Opinion polls had gone down. I like to believe before he died he had begun to sense some of that. He only lived a little longer knowing the great achievement civil rights and the Voting Rights act would not have happened without those skills of the congress. Host he only lived four years after the presidency was vacate vacated. s that when his depression started . He was so intensely involved he couldnt live without it. At the ranch he would replicate but there were no longer meetings in the morning for which cows would get the medicine or which tractors in the field. It wasnt enough to sustain him. And then you just feel the will to live was diminished. He had a fantastic life with lady bird and her and the kids but i think he would be happy to go away. Host Lady Bird Johnson says the chariot turned into a pumpkin and the aides turned into a mice. Thats great. I didnt know that. Was an easy but she kept her dignity. I couldve married a stockbroker who wouldve been home at 5 00 oclock at night that lyndon has shown me the world and im very grateful for that. If he would be going off something crazy she would just put her hand on his knee and say you dont really mean that. All the tension would ease out of him. Host what did you write the johnson book . I wasnt going to but he spent so long talking to me about his earlier life and then died and i had all the stuff and i wanted to share it so that became my first book i majored in constitutional law that would not have become a president ial historian if not the privilege of working with him. Host theres a story he crawled into bed with you. I told the story. He would wake up and he would want to talk. He couldnt bear being alone. Even taking a nap he wanted someone outside the room. So sometimes he would come into my room and the morning. I would get up he would bring the covers up to his chin and talk to me. It was a wonderful way to hear about the past with their ability to be a human being as well as president of the United States. He was a very powerful presiden president. Host march 31st 1968 this is just under two minutes and then well get the story behind his decision. I have concluded that i should not permit the presidency to become involved in the partisan division that are developing in this political year. With americans americas sons in the fields far away and the future under challenge right here at home. With our hopes and the world hopes for peace in the balance every day, i do not believe that i should not develop an hour of my time to any personal partisan cost or to any duties of this office of the presidency of your country. Accordingly, i shall not see seek, and i will not accept, the nomination of my party for another term as your president. But what men everywhere know that a strong and confident american stands ready tonight to see an honorable peace and stands ready tonight to defend the honor call whatever the price, whatever the burden, whatever the sacrifice that duty may require. Thank you for listening. Good night and god bless all of you. Host in your book you say there was the air of euphoria even johnson seemed pleased. Then you tell the story of his visit with truman two months later and johnson commented on trumans ability to make a decision and stick with it and not look back. What johnson so honored about truman dropping the atomic bomb he made it on the best facts at his disposal. Maybe he would have made it differently but he didnt look back or lose sleep but johnson those months before would wake up every night and wonder did the bombs drop in the right place . Do they do the right thing . He was tortured by that. He began to feel the only way the war would come to an end if he took himself out of the political process. People would say hes doing it for his next election and now thinking about history more than winning another term. He thought he was paralyzed and people cannot deal with congress and he had a grandmother who had a stroke and he was just terrified to watch her and he began to have a dream in those weeks before and was lying in the bedroom. The red room and they were dividing up his power and that is what was happening to him and then he would have to go see wilsons picture on the wall to remind himself he was johnson and he was alive. But metaphorically the political process was paralyzed and if he took himself out he could do better for the country. Host what was that your like for you . Originally i didnt start to work for him i work for a wonderful man and after johnson gave a speech after Martin Luther king was killed he was going to make a major speech on civil rights so i helped him a little bit and i was so excited he would do that to turn civil rights in a positive way. Johnson came up to me and asking me a question and said i wish you would give me a speech and then the next day and said they want her to come work for me the rest of her fellowship. I thought he was great but then they said youve got to take the chance me when you work for the last few months and stayed on through january 69. Host Springfield Massachusetts you are next. Caller wonderful program. Growing up in massachusetts with an interesting confession. But im calling using the cia to look into their private life always what a contradiction that was he so ahead on civil rights so what was the thinking behind that . J edgar hoover . You are right he was a force into his own that doesnt mean he didnt have a responsibility and into the private lives in case some dirt could be found to be discredited. And then people were gathering together but also because they didnt like the substance. So there was a tendency to look at mlk just in case they might need something for someone who believes in civil rights the idea the civil liberty is violated is not tenable. Can you explain this photograph . This is great and has a stor story. The guy holding crutches is one of my sons joe we had just come back from iraq graduated from Harvard College and instead of going to graduate school that fall ended up joining the army instead and as soon as he finished basic training he was sent to iraq where he was a platoon leader after the First Army Division left and going back to germany he had his acl operated on because he tore his knee and the red sox found out so they invited him to throughout the first ball. He said he was more nervous that night when the rpg went over his head. They can buy tickets on ebay. And then just winning the bronze star. And then to say its a guy thing you dont understand he is as irrational as i am. How did you feel when he finally won the series . Astonishing i could wake up and still remember what it felt like as a baseball fan my whole life ive only had the dodgers 55 in red sox 2004. Sometimes i wish my father was born in boston but there is something with that first world series and the second with my three sons we could talk to joe we in iraq and her other son in california and thats what is so incredible it allows you to go to the generations. Sometimes when i sit with my voice at fenway park then i can imagine im a young girl with my father by my side and then i see my son sitting there its like the invisible loyalty. Doris and weapons of mass distraction which was clearly not the rational but that if there a logical that the administration had in mind to create a stronghold the middle east of democracy, they would have to determine whether that there was bursting freedoms of the people to enter purposes, i think is very hard for the people to ask for for the war predict and was interesting, even lincoln question the rational saying that the president had is gated for his own purposes. Always casted out. We have a lot of territory of the questions about how we started it really think the more importantly it influences the rationale was corrected some level, then obviously the fact that we had prepared for it in well enough enough numbers. My son first got there for example, if the mission was accomplished we had people, he was so excited and iraqi, he was going to be at home and within days the security broke down and no more a wrecking home, and instead of a Peaceful Mission which he had hoped to accomplish, and three duties, checkpoint duty, and lastly and take his platoon out as a target pretty so that searches shoot much of them so they could kill them in turn. He never second guess going into the army. What a decision was afraid Harvard College. He seen kids in a world that he would not seen like that spiritually for kids in his classroom pretty became the leader. So is a better man for it is sometimes think about something by not having the draft. It is a big makes men young boys. Women. Everybody would participate in the warning for system that receives individuals people name in the newspapers now. Another families that have the same sense rated everybody knew somebody overseas. And think were going to have to rethink that for one have these missions abroad. Host next call comes to us from california. First i have a comment and then two questions. The comet is people have the right nobody, no ordinary times is an excellent book. I really highly recommended to everybody. Doris thank you very much. The first question is having a new book yet but that doing so. You cover the massacre at fort and presents lincolns response to it in the second question anything president lincoln would be a real possibility of black woman becoming president of the United States in 2008 rated. Doris i did cover the massacre to some except. What was oh so. About that is after this master took place, it was of black soldiers at fort philip. Theres a call retaliation so that we would somehow in the north the atmosphere the southern soldiers of people return flat and lincoln was very hesitant about that at first. In bleep is right is about me tell you to get some individuals may not have been part of the mask of a final he did initial edge of issue an order. And just hope that it would have to be used it was pretty much what happened. I think is far as what like it with think a black woman being present, i think theres no question as long as she shared the valleys that he thought the most important things without about the government, was democracy like ours, somehow clearly the artificial wave elected people the pigmented from the rising to the level that he saw himself as a way of what was so extraordinary about america he was able to push his way up to the top. But i think he would see in modern society with the problems of education in the problems of poverty, that there are groups of people that cannot push away up to the top and would want to have somebody who value was to help them go through that process pretty so whatever talents they had a disciplines they had in hardware, be able to get to the level of their ability. Greetings from lincoln springfield. 145th anniversary the selection. Doris i hadnt thought about that pretty well. The restatement and two questions. There is a depiction of lincoln reaching out to some of his friends, archbishop john hughes and Roman Catholic cathedral. Six blocks to self appealed state capital. And now is there any evidence that lincoln and the archbishop with doctrine of higher law and will soon be vindicated with the confirmation of the fifth catholic. Doris i didnt know about that stained glass window. But they were friends. In fact during the civil war, went over to england and did some work for administration by being over there. Its actually very funny, when he was running earlier, for the senates right boss, but also been a friend of the archbishop and had a picture of use in his house. And how much of natives is not the time to reload people are very anti catholic came 2000 need them to vote and so he told them that the archbishop was simply some friend or something. A lot of people were frightened by the thought. But there is a question of whether or not he was church and state. He would be kind of comfortable today some ice with what is going on because even as a young governor, in new york state he worried that the catholics were getting enough education that they were living in poverty so talks about public aid to these catholic schools. Something again this very controversy today. In her name at the time because it had nothing to do with the help of catholics anyway. Host what was the wigwam in chicago. Doris i dont know. Amanda is not there now. I probably knew whatever this book. Where it was exactly but it doesnt exist in chicago anymore and it was constructed exactly for the convention. And they say was called the wigwam because of the great chiefs met there so the cold the wigwam. That is part of what allowed chicago to get the convention because they promised they would build a structure inside the fort whats amazing is when the schematic of the Republican Committee National Committee met to figure out when the ghetto the convention, stood wanted it in new york and others wanted it in ohio. Its a lincoln was complicit all right this happened in illinois. Lincoln knew the importance of having it in chicago. In fact get the railroad to give him a discounted parents of the people could get to chicago. And he was able to pack all. In fact one of the supports, if they wanted the majority they lost by one vote, its possible that lincoln wouldnt have won the presidency. Host norman jed, who were they. Speech of travel rattling kids lincoln in 1955. And he actually been a farmer, Republican Party was made up of all of these very settlements, people who were former whigs and invest the money party, as of those days, the state legislatures choosing the senator lincoln had the majority of those by what he seven, all he needed was five more months in order to win the nomination. For the senate in 1855. Travel supporters, he was a former democrat willing to go with lincoln not because they didnt like him but because he was awake. So they held out and look like they would be a stalemate. Lincoln was worried that if neither one of them one, the third candidate who might win, is more pro southern and proslavery and sleet turned all 47 of his fuss over 25 because of troubles allowing trouble to become the senator. In his friends could figure out how can you do that. Mary was so upset with temples 530 start on this photo again in his life but even to the Victory Party that night and shook his hand and as a result of not making an enemy and amend document, general and, became its weight supporters 1958 and again in 1860. Norman, ski figured is winning felix in the late 1960s pushes that a piece of adult trying to be delivered to the path, this american bring them back into your life, they will aid you and run free to. Host democratic nominee, John Breckenridge is a southern candidate and you also have the know nothings which have the convention laminating another. Doris this court pretty Democratic Party was really split three. In lincoln as republican candidate douglas is for dominic democratic candidate within the center to union parties or more conservative in different aspects. Says one of the reasons why lichen was able to win the election because of the split in the parties. It was not very great. At the very end, lincoln was afraid of was of new york was this Great Electoral votes but for douglas. Very possible the mind. Is there a lot of Irish Catholics in the cities a lot of conservative merchants in the cities. Wanted keep trading with the south and didnt want slavery to be such an issue. And so they could only work in new york for even though he was told i can minute, you won the election to work Pretty Simple if he had locked to new york and it would been thrown into the house of representatives. It would be no majority. You run your book, to characterize that the assassination threats as president elect. Why was this embarrassing to family to have lincoln. But this caricature pretty that when the train has through baltimore, there might be a mob tack on the train. That that you better going in the dead of night he did not wear scones cooking casted and had a constructive for trade pretty thats enough for god camera that he just upgraded and disguised coming and indebted 19 a look like heres the president elect coming to washington and kenny become on his own power. And it that he had actually taken the risk and baltimore even if that train had been attacked to daylight. Reason called, karen n1864, Abraham Lincoln wrote as a result of the war, corporations had become been thrown and an air of corruption in high places will follow. The tower the country endeavored to prolong its role by preying upon the prejudice of the people until all wealth is concentrated in a few hands and republic is destroyed. I was wondering if you for about that later. Speedo dont know that letter predict this extraordinary pretty tina who are eroded to pretty. Up into the open a book that i was reading the time and that was put at the beginning of the chapter the book. Doris i would love that pretty. American history and they had think you dont know about america. Speech of what is true, early on in the war for example, and let contracts out to suppliers to mcnabb saxon to make weapons and make all sorts of machinery for the war. The middlemen made way and produce enough that fell apart in the rain. They didnt work. See could see some of the worries that we my having been today. But the interesting thing is that cameron who was then the secretary of war, is about to be considered by the congress for letting these contracts out to these companies that time. In his whole career that would be destroyed forever rent we can set up in our lives the congress saying that if cameron is at fault, and my is often the entire cabinet was of the problem. We have to do something to start getting the weapons made and mistakes were made. There is no question that war produces power produces centralized power and corporations and eventually what you say might be true but i would love to find that letter. He said that in team of rivals. She skips slightly over her subject more pragmatic political deliverance it is troubling entrances about race and indeed, ms. Goodwins lincoln often symbols a man of steel pretty wise and strongly good for the age previously as seen in verse pretty long not only to america but to the ages. To be repaired throughout all of the times. Doris i do feel like i came away. Thats probably why just him pretty theres no question that they come out in the book, he had lost pretty is much too patient early on pretty coming on too long. No question they understanding of the quality or not is spacious as one would hope. Theres no question that theres other things. As much as i loved and revered him. In japanese americans one of the greatest the failure to bring the refugees into the gutter before it was entered into close the door forever, though something the more you care about the person you write about spreader every leader has flaws. With their most historians argue is overwhelming strength was far greater in his boss and thats certainly what i can to be true as well pretty. Host has is your. Thank you for taking my call. Ms. Kearns, if you were interviewing present linking lincoln, would you ask him about his presidency. What would you ask him personally and number three, what would he say about how well people have viewed his place in history these many decades later and views modesty pretty. Doris great questions. I think i would ask him, maybe about his presidency would be to talk to him about what he mightve done after the war. Its a big unknown question. Would reconstruction been different pretty how wouldve he treated the south and how would you be short of black americans evenly brought the blocks wouldve things been different. So i would let him to speculate of what he thinks he wouldve been like. Personally i wouldve had an hour about him that i would say to me some of your great stories. So much of a storyteller so gifted that thats part of how the powers to place. He would travel in the circus. Too much in spring to mention the phone when he went to the courthouse. The courthouse, they knew you intent, people come from miles around pretty and listen to instead my fireplace tell one story after another. They say that of of his once he started telling the story. In his full life would be shown. Have you just give anything to listen to them tell me one story after another. As far as last question goes. What would he think about the fact that is name esther so far they lincoln would be astonished as much as he wanted to be remembered as much the dream power him for all the failures in his life is never simply front office of power. He wanted to some help be able to say they had made a difference in the lives of the people of his generation which he surely did. But what i found for example possibly in the book with it, i quote, the right storyteller. It may seem that lincolns life account so much for that even lincoln couldve imagined. I think we can wouldve illustrated story was that he went into the caucuses and some years prior to 1908 in this article was written in the near world. He went with barbarians who hardly knew lofgren the u. S. And shall of the basement of history so he told them about alexander. The men we spoke with the voice of thunder. He left like the sunrise tells of Abraham Lincoln. Ames astonished the lincoln same had reached these barbarians pretty marley know about america. Telling you about america is a place so far away from here. If we had journeyed there would be open by the time we get there. Then they concluded wanted they know what they heard about lincoln why was he so great predict he wasnt a great general like napoleon predict but he was a humanitarian. And it was his character to slap. He predicted that any even two centuries from now people would know more about lincoln because of his last forever. The gift lincoln heard that it would make them so happy but his modesty would say, that cannot be true. Host the lincolns office in the white house. Where is that. Speech of what happened in those days, the office in the white house, and the cabinet room for the same. So unlike today weve got the oval office and the new but the cabinet room separate pretty theres a big long table with a cabinet would meet and theres a Pretty Simple setting pretty soon a big chair, any at a desk which he said and then this table would be arranged in terms of privacy. Secretary of state in the present the secretary of treasury and then which office was most powerful but the most incredible thing with my house in his office those days, jumped could racing to the white house instantly go to lincoln and talk to them. And he also would have receptions in the white house where anybody could come back and the diplomats like. They would drag their martin actually take parts of the carbon home as a souvenir parade of people in the lincoln stamp was a coming cant waste time talking to all of these people he said, its my Public Opinion and a need to remember the great popular similar judge a concrete anything about the now in terms of recent decades of the white house has become so much of a concussion. So insulated partly because of security met partly because of the week. Gov. Ron desantis to think that is done is that they had lost touch with the people for the first election they come from the people in the second election to the wind it that all of the people have also lost touch with ordinary people lincoln understood the importance of that. The problem in the Public Opinion polls were out today, he would listen to the pretty were not in the know me anything you would educated shape public hopefully cannot be constrained by buddy would say anything is possible. Without it nothing. In a democracy, the peoples opinion matter. So we would try to keep in touch. Just like fdr did. Host in todays day and age, we dont have anymore recordings the white house that you know of. We have emails computers. And not as many letters pretty how would historians look at this era, 100 years now. Speak up it will be much harder for them to recapture what people are feeling and thinking but they will have much more stuff to go through. It might be paralyzing. But they will have what you get an entire entered diary entry. Or a letter. If you are writing to your wife or daughter new keeping a diary. Mostly just writing your raw emotions pretty when youre reading them, as a historian, and you really can feel that they were feeling at the time. People are not writing letters pretty the arts and culture writing is a look at their. They tell each other how to write letters when theyre young. Think of the fact that husbands and wives are away from each other so much of the time. They may be gone for a year. Lets on the only means of communication. No phone, telegraph is certainly not going to do is of the northern write letters and within a miniature we know how to write predict when my son was in iraq, and to try to write him as often as a good here and supposedly writer freedom start to figure out, i would finally do and thinking that lincoln part in the soldier today. In this what i would be reduced to telling him. By his son, who was 14 monthold than he, and was in the picture that we saw earlier holding his crutches. He himself wanted to be a writer he wrote his mother every single day. And written note every single day. You bring up the kids and to the two of them were fighting the back of the carbon there now. Almost like irish twins. One knew that he and his mother to become the. Thats all thats matter pretty they would have each other. Host another book by doris kern goodwin. He mounted 1997 buried in the latest team of rivals. Next falls hannabarbera california. Hi there. Great show pretty just wanted to get ms. Goodwins opinion on something read an article five in the constitution, is said that there is only two groups of american that you can propose change. In one group is congress and the others and right now and i Circuit Court of appeals lose a federal lawsuit called walker versus members of congress. In applications for article five convention. Our registered with the failing to carry out the constitutional obligation an issue that operated was just wondering what you thought of that any think it is time for article five convention. Sweet if i dont know what youre talking about. If interested about that pretty absolutely right though and that the framers decided the constitutional amendments such an important process that they need to be two possible ways of initiating them. Stay conventions of congress. And they almost all cases in history, process to get through which is why we have some few constitutional amendments. But they can be so important predict the most important pieces of our government its of my spread Civil Rights Movements and even during lincolns time, he did everything he could to get the Congress Passed this constitutional amendment which would undo slavery and have it try to mobilize that is well pretty but it is imported that there be no roadblocks predict the people want to bring in agreement, with the field they should be able to do that in a look at it would your same desert know about that. Some people say that he had this dual feeling. He revered the framers in the constitution. Those people who grew up in his generation remember that too far from the family. His young man and give the famous beach. It is worried that his generation didnt have the same challenges as the Founding Fathers that theyve for the month that establishes fantastic government as a result they were remembered it. Mountains rivers and streams. Nothing left for our generation except to protect what they have done. Modest ambition writing they never couldve imagined on the Anti Movement in the 50s when they too him being present. But because he repaired the constitution so much, this way it was hard for he could not of been an abolitionist 1950s because abolitionist many of them said chair of the constitution if it protects slavery as it does. Then we dont care about the constitution pretty felt that institution would be gone the constitution the whole framework that held the country together would be gone pretty but really love the declaration of independence pretty think he saw that anns call for equality of something that would certainly trump the constitution. Host when the few photographs taken during the presidency. Doris i can say but is this the one on the battlefield. He went a dozen times to visit the soldiers. And what would happen is after each battle was lost to me felt compelled to go talk among the soldiers pretty good right is worse and he would visit them in the hospital. Somehow it buoyed is berenson and his intern pretty new at quebec having their spirit inside of himself and he went to the soldiers, so important to the soldiers that would lincoln ran again, 1964 against general collins is a popular the soldiers early in the war, they said that he cared more about the soldiers the boat and even about winning the second election. Indeed when soldiers vote and lose the second election he be fine but it has the other way around he be. Somebody had occurred between these trips. Out of ten for lincoln. Even though they knew the voting for like it prolonging the war. But they had come to trust the because this man. I think that is one of his greatest things of that second election. Host join us. Our next call is from massachusetts. Hi pretty this letter talk to you and ive been so excited about hearing about your book. An anxious to read it. Do you have anything to do with bill brooks numa van lincoln. Doris i do need predict what happened is i first met spielberg in 2000 when he was working on the documentary on the millennium. In particular bunch of historians and economists working on lincoln. And he said he would like someday to make a movie lincoln. And you know a lot about lincoln. Sorely on, yes me to write before i even finished it. And two writers were put to work on it. The first one is on long pretty here at the aviator in the gladiator. And unless and right anybody second scriptwriter, paul was a prudish entrance british playwright who became a good friend and he spent last misgiving and is spending this thing skimming with us. National when it will be made public sometime soon. And he has been chosen to write Abraham Lincoln. Host what did make like predict cletter. Doris germany city says it has a thin highpitched voice. They said it could range very far. In those days, outdoor venues and somehow it can be hard wherever it was pretty when reporter heard him give one of his first beaches, and what about it later and 71st started out, youre aware that highpitched voice to be aware of how awkward he looks pretty yet when he started speaking, he spoke such conviction and such strength inside the suddenly his voice became louder. In this whole energy was seen in his face. His face would light up his body would move and he became a different person. The matching the dazzling words that he was able to write, his voice was heartfelt feeling. This the most important thing about a speaker. Host you mentioned movie is still the planning stages. Doris i suspect the movie will be called lincoln. What else would he beat the lincoln. I hope. I dont know. He will decide that. Host Seattle Washington you are next pretty. I wanted to follow up on the corporations enthroned citation earlier to give you with that citation is rated. Doris thank you pretty. That was in a letter to col. William and on november 21, 1864. Some of the surrounding context of that letter might rated it is we might congratulate ourselves, this war is serious and because of the cost of investment treasure blood, indeed crying hard for the republic. In the near future crisis approaching rated nerves me and causes me for the safety of my country as a result corporations have been enthroned an area of corruption in high places will follow. In the money power the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of people until all wealth and aggravating and the republicans i feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before even in the midst of war. God grant my suspicions may prove groundless. Then a few years later, january of 1837, lincoln said in a speech to the illinois legislature. These capitalists act in concert to lead people, now that they have gotten into quarrel with themselves. We are called upon to prepare appropriate people money to settle the quarrel. I wonder if you would say a few words on lincolns relationship with the capitalist in his view of the commonwealth of the people. Doris what he did say at one point was the labor was prior to capital. In his whole theory was laboring people build up the work in a business pop and they created a business that hired of the but without the laboring men, everything was primary to that. The capitalist to that predict thats in a famous speech he made and so theres no question i think that he would have a sense they so obviously in the age of the Industrial Revolution before youve got fullscale capitalists. There just beginning that people go to the cities and go from the farms begin to build up a certain amount of wealth. Since interesting to annuity with think if you are in a later age look back on that desire to the free labor of capital. Doris im live with Abraham Lincoln for ten years so well pretty good but on another five or ten years not ever lost interest in him predict i wake up every morning and i look now at the place where work. Work on this ridiculous lounge and i sent yesterday because i need a laptop any longer my papers on me so cant ruggedness about. Something like an right now with this computer mother braided and looked out that and i feel sad when he could buy it because i have lost the focus of what it was like everyday. And my husband works in the home as well and he would go to study and one side of the house i would give mind. And we would read newspapers the morning before working. And i would have to somehow keep up the current day. Because i was doing analysis with him at night so i knew at least close going on little bit braided then we actually going to town and have lunch everyday. And just be able to get out and then i would read more of the newspaper it will shine. And i would go back and work in the afternoon do errands in the afternoon and then every night would go the same restaurant. Theres a group of 20 or 30 of us, all have children who are prone and we would sit around in a pub like atmosphere the bar become part of each others lives. This something so structured about those days with lincoln at the core of it that i missed even now. Even in the times of Monica Lewinsky or all of the troubles that we have been in 911 i was commenting on television, i know i can wake up the next morning with Abraham Lincoln is a great treat. Couldnt i get the sports page first. And then we switch. Host will going to show our audience your home. We traveled up there preparing for this interview. Will come back to this discussion pretty cspan2 in depth. [background sounds]. Doris i think my love of history goes back to the days of my father taught me the mysterious art of how to keep the score baseball game spreads like in record for him the brooklyn dodgers games. Somehow when your father comes home and spent two hours with you every night listening to you recorded the history even if it is just something that happened that afternoon, and menacing that there was something magic about history. Then i a great history teacher in high school that made that love and i came to a fascination with the presidency because of having worked with Lyndon Johnson went up the corporate so somehow the presidency and the 11th history mounted together at that point. Like like a book early in the morning usually month six or 630. Angling to my sanity and hurried over when i written the day before. Hoping that it still looks good braided somehow and i before they might look great in the next morning, it doesnt look as good as the thoughts. And my husband and i can breakfast on both work pretty works in another part of the house because hes a writer as well. We usually go out for lunch because working here all day and we break in about 1 00 oclock until 2 00 oclock and then do some errands in the afternoon pretty tobacco a look another couple of hours. And then there is a restaurant in our town of concord where about 20 or 30 people gather every night. Later in the bar and its like a huge family. And we come home after that and i do some reading but maybe not for lincoln, just reading about a novel or mystery sprinted and i go to bed pretty early so can get up again at 6 00 oclock. s be five when you read a book you write is you do research. Speech of the first couple of years require Just Research to do and try to get oriented. In my case with linkages having to read all about the rivals team of rivals that i would be writing about meant it was almost like an individual biography and each one of them. So there was just pure research. Thats fun to because youre just learning the whole time. But then i remember reading an essay whose greatest historian saying dont wait too long to write. Because of you angelo, might get paralyzed criticism as i had a big sense of where i wanted to go with this book, restricted years altogether, probably in your two or one and a half, i did start writing and we do more research and writing and research into buying them as i went along. Host this whole shelf over here is all lincoln books. Two to one of the great things today that being able in the internets to get all of the books is you really can get a collection of books that may be out of print. So turns out the more books written about lincoln in almost any other public figure preserves locking up by going to use bookstores and intranets, public sales to get an entire wall full of lincoln books. And have them right here at my side. Which was just terrific pretty anyone moment i could say i would be able to go to the diarrhea go to chases diary or private papers. Everything was really in the rooms the books that are needed then the press were papers and primary sources that i would drag into the house and probably, 50 cartons or so. Host how would you pick the people to write about. Doris for me, have to want to live with the people sidebyside. Living with franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt for example was such a great pleasure because they were such large characters. And until we six years to write the book which meant longer than world war ii was fought. So we going to spend that much time with them, live them devotee, you better enjoy the company. And so too with lincoln. I readiness they would time by a great historian. At the turnofthecentury, lessons. And she said the reasonably people write about lincolns because he is so companionable. And i truly felt that. This book took me twice as long as the civil war took to be fought braided it i enjoyed every day of living with this man. Such a great figure, such a good man. His companionship i really craved day by day. I would have a hard time writing about somebody that i did not want to live with day by day. Obviously white historians have written about hitler, i dont think it could be me. I need somebody but i respect and admire even if they have flaws. I want to enjoy the company to buy day. Host the book no ordinary times, you begin chapter one drilling a sorry Franklin Roosevelt as president and remembering him as the employee in high park and how he would reflect on that time. What was he thinking. Doris is obviously thinking about hearing was as president , paralyzed the waist down unable to walk on its own power ever again system polio taken is an trend in his 30s he had been such an athletic equine person before that in terms of his physical activity. So before he would go to sleep at night, he later said that he would like to remember the days when he was young boy again in high park and was a big sledding hill as a boy he would go to the top the hill side of him on the slide then takes landmark backup to the top braided and somehow instead of counting sheep, he was remembering it is my going up to that setting him going down and going back up again this amount allotted to, and go to sleep. But what a sad thing that gave him that solace was a memory of the time when he is a young boy had awesome powers which were now no longer allowed to them. Missy was his secretary she started working for him and she was about 18 years old. Too many ways left him the rest of her life rated to become secretary during the early days when in the 1920s when he was found trying and warm springs and in florida try to get his power to walk again while eleanor remained at home. She stayed with them all for the presidency. And finally had a stroke in the middle of white house years. In the last year entered the war. Then went home to somerville for this one of the centerpieces of his life because i felt sad that he didnt keep up with her when she had struck reduce one of those moments when you want to say, franklin, missus great guy. It should not be good this moment. He couldnt bear the hurt of calling on the phone knowing that she could not affecting them. They shouldve at least talk to her as if she were listening and if she could keep her pretty. One of the senses that you get from no ordinary times, he needed to be around people. The white house in singapore was a constant buzz of activity and people cars and social activity. It is very outgoing. Doris in part because he cannot travel a lot, inside washington he wanted the people around him every moment he. Ellipsis stories. He made it into most exclusive hotel you can possibly imagine. Churchill comes in spent weeks at a time in a bedroom across roosevelt. Harry hopkins his Foreign Policy advisers coming to dinner one night early six over never leaves into the work unsuited for princes martha was in exile during the war came with her family the weekends. And eleanor is there as well. Then a former reporter who loves and are staying next to eleanor. So i kept wondering how many con of what the conversations were like at night. I wished i couldve been up there. But of course i wasnt thinking in those terms and 25 years old so i have dimensions on the Radio Program after my book came out and happen that Hillary Clinton was listening since you probably called me up and said invited me to sleep overnight at the white house. And then we are trying to figure out together where everyone had slapped her theres a two weeks later she followed up with an invitation between midnight and 2 00 a. M. After the dinner. My husband and i and with map in hand, jessies living where Harry Hopkins were the clintons where fdr wasnt this one in Winston Churchills room. It was so exciting. Host why did he marry eleanor. Doris i think he left her 20 minute reduced to his credit that he couldve had any woman at the time pretty was very handsome, he was wealthy, nerissa benvenuti fallen or saw in eleanor something that he had not not seen in most of the bills. She had such a sad childhood. Her father an alcoholic alarm annoying, most beautiful she is to make the owner feel that she felt her mother because she did not have a pretty face. But then she was sent to a boarding school in england on the head made her feel that she should have his commitment to socialize, but to social work that is different for most women her age. Want to go back and be a debutante. So she started to work and social house. Tell people in poverty. So when he met her, woman interest in politics and in the poor and the things that he and eventually in his life and i think he chose the best woman for him. Host described her relationship between Franklin Roosevelts daughter and lucy. Speech of what happened for small is that when eleanor and franklin were married about 12 years or so, she brought in his secretary, eleanor did to help her. The time, beautiful young woman, classy woman prayed and it seemed for that franklin fell for her. Eleanor was not very confident and she had a motherinlaw to contend with pretty but taking really the kids of the family. She lost a lot of process that she had when she was young working girl in a settlement house. And so anyway, franklin seem to fall in and out of owner eventually discovered letters that in britain and offered a divorce in 1980. Floss think that he wanted. So obviously, they get together and Stay Together and he promised never to see lucy again. But then, he did keep that promise for oh block of years but during the white house years, eleanor traveled. She was a great eleanor was not was not home a lot. Itself was telling any happen to run into this again decided he wanted to see her again just have her come and talk to white house. On the only way he could do that would be of his daughter anna with working at his at hostess in the white house range for this meetings and in doing so, the wouldbe the hard her mother to find evidence on the individual as her father needed this companionship. She visited the white house. To see happen to be in georgia when he died. She left immediately. This is a looking down she would ask the shoot would take time everything that happened in the news of the tovar lucy had been there. Its hard to imagine how she observed that is even she had absorber. Biblically in the day and age, she didnt have to be humiliated in front of the country. Just within herself. When she cannot normally that her daughter anna made this possible, she mustve felt that she lost her husband don same time. She was able to forgive anna and became close once again. Host let me read the letter that you include a page 631 of the paperback edition pretty just pharmacy quote. Im not. Before for many reasons but you constantly in my thoughts was very loving and heartworm hits of the now is following a recent on the way. He told me so often referring to frequent roosevelt, and with such feeling of all of the two men enjoyed comfort on that trip pretty led to think of his great pride in you he told me so often in which suc i love you becauseu are his child. And because your yourself. And very devoutly and heartbroken something, lucy. Doris can you imagine what that letter meant to anna who was feeling guilty. Then knowing that her father whom she adored and talked in such loving terms about her to lucy. As i say quickly would happen after a while, and mark came to realize how much franklin had been separated the country. That the Partnership Given her estate that she would never had. Everywhere she went every day people tell our much loved her husband. I think she was able then to reach back beyond the hurts of knowing that he had thought of her. Remember all the good years that they had together. The masters of her lifeless with this out of her mind whenever she talked to franklin. She put it out of her public pretty whenever she talked to her husband. She was talk of love and respect is one of the listen to be able to finally move you forget. When he run for fourth term. Doris in those health saw what he been before and im not sure he was or how sick he was. He was such an optimistic that even though the doctor told him he had congestive heart failure, i suspect that he would say ill beat this. I think he believed that even without his help, since he was in the middle of the work he had seen it up and to the point, you wanted to see through. My guess is that some people have talked about the possibility that had he not died when he did, he still mightve turned the presidency over some point was the war came to an end. He wanted to see the worn that had begun under him. Host date like harry truman. Doris b didnt know him very well. Police were think that this minute become so important in the history. Without a lot of forethought on his mind. He didnt spend a lot of time figuring out or incorporating him into the decisionmaking process especially when is ol. Thats want to think about this guy whos going to replace him. He was just very lucky as a country that harry truman was harry truman became such a great president rated. Im a big fan of yours. I had a question regarding lincoln in connection to all the president s you are talking about braided and the fact that at some point in this critical times in American History that the presence have made the decision to follow policies that had to be kind of camouflaged and awake in in order to be accepted by the people the congress and lincolns case, as you said earlier, he was fighting a war to preserve the democratic experiment ready for some people could get their minds around. In roosevelts case, the wiki and other policies to helping linda before he could get the rest of the country to follow. Into engaging the words he wanted to long before pearl harbor. Right down to what they say today about weapons of mass destruction in iraq and with that was really just justification for responding to the 911 attack in a dramatic enough way that sent a message to the world saying that if you hit us as hard and as drastically as we were, there will be just as part of drastic retaliation for lack of a better word although i guess that is what it is. Enter president s justified in kind of covering again covering up might not be the best word but using causes and ideas the people can relate to. To the policies which they believe in to be right underway. Doris is a very thoughtful way of putting it my guess it depends on what the overall purposes of the policy is suggesting. As to whether or not really does move with a grain of history and will create a Greater Peace in the world or whether it creates greater justice in the world. Youre right in talking about roosevelt that even in the early days before pearl harbor he would talk about the way of preventing us of having to get into word if we could somehow prison would against germany. It might make it easy for us not to be in the work. Even at some level i suspect that they would have to get into that war now to say thats deceptive. Think he understood that way back in 1938 in a given a speech about quarantining the dictator and it creating such an uproar in Congress Called for his impeachment that he was going to try to entangle us and what was going on in your writing is is a terrible thing to be the president and democracy feel like youre leading a parade you look over your shoulders know is following you pretty pretty self minimum stepbystep to educated shape Public Opinion to where the one thing to go. In that case getting a mark involved in my judgment in world war ii was essential because there had been allowed to succeed in network print our entire civilization would be destroyed. Cd which can to bring the people along the goal was absolutely worth it. Things some ways his greatest leadership would before pearl harbor because we were more prepared boone pearl harbor happened. Animate stepbystep towards that domestication proclamation. Fantasies with earlier, wouldve lost the mercy bring for dinner later, he wouldve lost the morale the came. They understand where people are another move them step by step. Its i think ultimately, the question will be was the war in iraq truly the right battle of the war on terror ported to become a diversion from the war on terror. To the use resources and our treasure bridge due to use of the lives or larger purpose and that still would history or didnt do what they were helping and eventually to turn out to become a strengthening democracy. Orders to other people that you better not mess with us. Or we will retaliate in history still is very unclear about which way thats going to turn out. That will be the judge of whether or not that talking about it in a different way was justified or not. Their interest of the forest, the work turns out to be the version of universal longterm efforts and i think that the deception at the beginning of even more hard to accept. Host do think that lincoln wouldve been his treatment review to see is now headed but not not been assassinated. Doris dying at the height of the war and not having to deal with reconstruction and all of the messy problems of peace, probably to keep his reputation intact in a way that it would not have been had he had to deal with and even saying that however, i was so much rather have had in the country better off dealing with the Nedra Johnson even if it meant that his reputation was somewhat diminished because it was complicated and messy. Much greater empathy towards the south but at the same time saving and better reconstruction of what had followed was that is deadly maybe the whole country would be better off today and then it would be worth a damn some people say, he was not good without. I still have that. Host do think it was a wise decision for lincoln to choose a southern democrat enter johnson. Speak up i think at the time he thought it was a wise decision because the method he was winding up this party that would come after the war. Had have democrats and republicans and together the kind of union heartiness enter johnson have been a supporter of the war and had been a good military governor. As it turned out however, he didnt know enough about Andrew Johnsons character the kind of leader he would become. Became evident on the inauguration day. Because it had too much to drink at the end of involve. Any of this and credible rambling speech that everybody was panicked that they suggest that he was not going to be up to the job. I think he might not have been chosen to be doing better. The convention decided the more than he but at the time he was please got the connection the southern democrat his farce is being one of the republicans. It did not turn out very well. Host how did women influence lincolns presidency. Doris obviously in some ways, the relationship developed with his wife influence the lonely sadnesloneliness. Vanessa died as forever altered and she took to her bed. She can even be a mother to her youngest son pat who stated the time. William had almost been like a Little Lincoln pretty good right right poetry, insensitive, he took care of his younger brother what a defected people couldnt understand what he was saying. When he died, diseases would spread with spread because the soldiers using the river as a latrine. They killed william in many ways account very pretty and he felt the personal loss of the war and may be to project that even more to the people at large when he talked about the family circles that were also broken. Just partisan temperament from. Wahost thank you to willing to give credit to your history teachers. Im a College History teacher. You should give more credit to your enormous energy, interests and talents. His onto the redhaired girl from the spring of 1955 talking to myself and others as we were waiting to go into the Entrance Exam and fell prey to speak up a while. Thats exactly where i was. Went to Public School actually but i would go to ccds on wednesdays and sundays got my confirmation 1955. That is true. Host when was this picture taken. Doris spring training. I would go down to spring training when my boys were little just to be able to write some sort of an article and to be able to play around and see the players in such a relaxed setting. I actually wrote an article on him when youre about his quest for the batting title. Turned out to be an extraordinary through because what happened is a very close to his sister. He was very close to his mother. Incidents family. This is ridiculous can choose big history buff. So very that written the article, she came to my hometown to see the Historic Sites and to karen and we became friends. Then one day in 1986, the year that the red sox almost won the world series. She called me and we are talking i mentioned that there was a broken rib and we were afraid the doctors, typical baseball fans. Didnt think the doctor was taking good care of him pretty and turned out that his sister called the mallards and maybe you should go to a different doctor and said they would have this the mother called him and told her and he told her that he interpret into not minutes later and was killed in the car brush with her mother and turned to spend there his mother were gone. For days he just went home and no one knew when he would come back to the red sox. In that during the period, got a call from him. I just want to thank me and because my called his sister and his sisters called to the mother had a chance to tell her that he left or right before she died. So what started out as just frivolous kind of baseball article about them turned out to be something more. Host these are the boys predispute if they said the voice. Thats whenever little. Hes now in his 30s on the left than joeys and my luck michaels to the right. Twentyseven and 28. Dorishost los angeles. Is a comment, relative to at the caller from florida had said about the iraq war. It does seem that not a particular big fan of democracy. Hes a guy who mapped out this strategy 1996 with the just for the gets what he calls us. If the people who currently run this country are democrats, i would be quite surprised at the wise and when you try to overthrow this and also coming out with some having free destabilizing or their successors. What i would say relative to lincoln is out in these people are currently running our country are sort of coming out of that imperial presidency which he was the first to really create three executive order. Sort of the thing that come to buy the elements of the far right pretty think theres some truth to the notion when the Congress Adjourns i roberts rules, there is no lawful way that the president can use Emergency Powers to be convenient. Host thank you for the call predispute if you are right, congress was not set, and process than. So we do have to worry about that and i think of the things said to see about the history of the iraq he war, took place in congress before congress authorized the president to take the action that he did. Its terrible that we have to go through that. The democrats were to blame as well as republicans, memory, everyone was worried about the midterm elections and i think everybody send me up and looking strong after september 11 but as a result, the authorization to the president without the information they were getting. They had more intelligence reports, longer time, would force the administration to talk to congress, maybe that would not have taken place back another email working closely with Lyndon Johnson, and you, on the biography on his life and political is fantastic. Hes as good a writers ability to render talks about electricity going to real texas, is magical the way he makes it come alive for the People Living in us is going along, he understood Lyndon Johnson. He may not like the things he said about him johnson would be proud to know a man of his stature spent his life working on it. I always had this fear in the afterlife, 30 all the president , they would tell me what i got wrong. The first person would be funded. Three times anything ive ever written. Franklin roosevelt achieved so much such as Social Security, ec Federal Reserve open market committee, sdhc, fha unemployment insurance, g. I. Bill, temporary relief jobs to the Great Depression but ive always believed his best work with his extraordinary leadership during world war ii. How was Franklin Roosevelt so effective when the country was so unified when you compare it to vietnam for the current mess in iraq. Inc. Roosevelt understood in world war ii, if it were going to be long, you have to involve as many people on the home front as possible so they would feel connected to the floor. In that regard, he had 12 or 13 Million People working in the factories during the war they were drafted in the army during the war he also had strong people buy bonds even if it wasnt the most efficient way to raise money for the work because he wanted them to be part of the drive all of which was to say fight a war abroad, everybody at home should feel connected to it. I often thought after september 11, president bush had an opportunity to kick onto the country and roosevelt said the work happened, has become in the world. He made some liberals mad because he decided he had to have a partnership to close the weapons necessary for the work he gave him great contracts, you regulations. They became important to him. The president bush account of the country and to become 9 11 and use the resources of spring provided to emergency situations to make it better in our country. You might have been ready to china. We could have had a Public Health system to strengthen the attack it would have been in his own life. There could have been police, potentially address again so more people will be part of this effort instead of having this small group of People Volunteer army. All was possible unity after 9 11 think aniston that unity, was a regular right battle to fight to keep the unity . All that support our home front could have been mobilized in a different way. Describe the relationship between harold roosevelt, her son. I would not have wanted roosevelt as a motherinlaw. Shes very important to frank and she gave him the confidence as he had support and as a Common Ground mothers. So much so that i think sometimes it was hard for him because she took him out of school, is older than the other people and never throw along the length of his own age but once he got married, i do think she was ready to let go. As a result, eleanor had a hard time finding a relationship with her husband. She created two houses, one for her. Eleanor tried to discipline children, somehow she would be the one to say dont worry one of the kids did something bad. I think she was a difficult source eleanors eyes make the marriage complicated than it wouldve otherwise been. A long. She died in her 40s so she was pretty old. Her death euros and 41 is very hard. He wore a black armband for a long time. He really did love her. This is a rumor ive heard, i dont know if this is true, she might have been bisexual or gay . Also, this element having a relationship. That is two questions, heres what i think people think lincoln might have been gay for two reasons. He slept in the same bed for three years and two, he wrote letters that ended with yours forever with thinking. If i was in that period of time, i discovered mans relationship with each other were very intense. More than it would be now and women seem likely test with one another. The been the same bed was not anything unusual. Good sleep sometimes two or three children in the person who got to himself was the judge because his 300 pounds. The people i was writing about this post was lost their lives for treasury. Stanton likes his ever since intercourse, is more awake i dream of you at night and i want to hold you by the hand and say i love you. Suggested he was gay, no one suggested chase was gay. He became romantically involved sex no one suggested is either one of them forget. Trying to make a path into the life. Thank you look back the time we have to realize men have attachments, there is no definition of homosexuality and tillich 1968. They talk to one another in this way. Women have written about the 19th century an early 20th century was common for women to write to each other that way. Part of it is women and men have friendships the same way thinking today. Everything is so structured as chaperone. Men, men and more women and women were intensely involved. I think it was the context of the times is more important than to label them today from our perspective. Question answered thomas. Intersection in 1860, destroyed in 1867. What was the deal with general for the Supreme Union commander, he certainly very helpful against lincoln in 1864. See highlevel software . Concern for us thinking about gathering strength of the colonial powers troops, french troops in mexico, was a concern colonial wanted to try to move back in . Yes, he was very concerned. England and france in the civil war is disturbing symptoms not only to come back and get land from america even more, they wanted the democratic experiment to fail. Theyre protecting set of government. Its true, people could govern themselves, especially the aristocrats, the wealthy, the ones who are supporting the girls so it is important to secretary of state keeping people out of the water out of the world. Working in favor of it because they were in favor of emancipation. Trying to maneuver situations maybe they could pick up mexico, things could be done. Stars your first question, are you still there . Yes. This is from ray West Virginia saying if lincoln were to be involved in politics today, which party was what he aligned himself with . Is very spoiled clinically, it took him a long time before he became a republican so say the Republican Party my guess is to move in a progressive fashion so he cared about people who didnt have educational opportunities, he said about people who work for the government was to do for individuals they could not do the cells. He had a different philosophy so i think he probably would make the Republican Party he believed in rather than to switch to another party. The caller is aspirin about general was his saboteur . I think its not fair to say he was a saboteur. Is a conservative democrat did not believe americans should not help that hole in the wall. He dollars to make the work longer give resistance to the south the trouble is a general, which lincoln should have seen earlier than he did was that is organizing troops, they have no honor to be there but he created great he somehow didnt have what it took to take his troops into war. Some people argued he loved him so much, he didnt want to take them to battle. The market was going slow because he wants of the workers from to an end without hurting the south but whatever it was, he turned out to not be a good general. In 1864, like even though gettysburg was one, lincoln wasnt sure is going to win another election because the morale was found, many lives lost, people blaming him the form was prolonged, the Democratic Convention said youd be the perfect person to run against him because he has the support and loss of the conservative democrats without the war was going on too long compromise peace be a good thing to have. I think he thought because he is so popular with the army you have the support of the speech element in the army. Once the army quote which mattered so much to him. He handled the election terrib terribly. He then went off to the sunset. The letters were so damning to him and hurt his reputation forever. He talks that god placed him where he is but he could be a dictator if you want to do. He said terrible things about lincoln and stanton, he never takes responsibility for his failures but he failed, he blamed out right on stanton to the extent, he wrote a telegram into the white house think if i lose this battle, it will be your fault if you would sacrifice and a pretty telegraphic insubordination of the last month that he cut it out so they didnt see that. It became knowledge of later. After stanton was getting hounded by the newspaper saying send him, lincoln gave him a huge speech, bigger than any in operation, is not sent them, i would have sent him if i could. Lincoln acknowledged immediately controlled in response ability of in subordinates, his always blaming somebody else for what he did. Twentyfive minutes, paris, california. Good morning. A wonderful compassion for writing history. The time in the future we plan on writing a book about civil rights . I dont know what im going to do next and that is a good idea. One of the difficulties is you get so caught up in what youre doing that its hard to imagine right now but in some ways, Civil Rights Movement would be the logical way to go after lincoln left the presidency, still he did that movement in the 60s to complete the emancipation and beginning of the breakdown of segregation troops beginning of equality for black americans and might be a nice sequel. The hard thing is, even when i had to move was about to lincoln and all. , i felt like somehow i was betraying roosevelt so i think it will be a while because im sure i will come up with something sometimes. Mexico. Thank you. Wanted to ask you, the modernday hightech computerization eliminated the need of the government socialism democrats offer. Look at this possibly bring to the table to assist our capitalistic system . The idea that government and aid people in areas, lincoln is good so many years ago, no question in my mind so that Social Security is a fundamental right the democrats arguing to protect that there is a need for Free Enterprise our system is built upon that. But in some cases, to become free corporations that need some sort of stimulus from the government to make sure youre not doing that freedom is no question this issue of healthcare job creation and poverty think the democrats traditionally talked about whether or not cigarettes the country today to argue clear the right values we should be fighting for as a country the question because they havent won in recent elections. The values underwrite the Democratic Party in my mind the 60s on the Civil Rights Movement using the government to help people who might not have had the chance to help in Social Security was updated civil rights laws were passed in segregation and flooding, i think all of those things our country is eventually proud of. Its under Democratic Authority given the importance either side and looked back and people saw this is a sad. Because and its about the vietnam war of kennedy and in some ways, it is a time when people cared about public issues including to fight for those issues. I look back nostalgic, maybe its because i was younger. How does President Trump feel about Martin Luther king . In the beginning, there are some tension. Operating outside the system of the government and pressing the government to move quickly. Otherwise think. It happened was after the civil rights and 64 asked, ending segregation in the south Martin Luther king created a movement that created, johnson got pressure to know he had done something that stands the test of time. He became a real civilized african. The first act passed, he said dont go providing price. He said this is my moment, it may not continue, and Going Forward. State of the Union Address and 65, he called for Voting Rights act and Martin Luther king made that, life when he made march is beaten up in the police force, and make the country feel a certain sense of worry to do something to make this right. Thats why Linden Johnson called and gave a great speech. Proud to send my husband, he worked on that speech. My friend had this great moment in history because what happened in the middle of the speech, he talked about several places is not black or white problem, with come together in one place in alabama just as they did he took up the income of the Civil Rights Movement and said we shall overcome. If all of us were involved, that was the anthem to have the president no longer fighting against the Civil Rights Movement but embracing it in that moment. Theres a moment, the most emotional moment in my young life. How did you meet your husband . He came to harvard when i was teaching and he had an office near mine he claims he sort of knew about me because of Lyndon Johnson and asked me for dinner. The first night i met him, i knew this was the man i wanted to marry but it took a while. s next color. I grew up in person and went to st. Pauls catholic church, the nuns left the brooklyn dodgers we would all want to win the series. [laughter] i have two questions. In 2001, president bush signed an executive order permanently ceiling up from the public all president ial records, going back to reagan. Now any request for documents relating to past presidency has to be approved by the white house. Will this affect the work of historians like yourself . Second, president lincoln is a brilliant president. I believe he wrote most of his own speeches but did lincoln depend on any one divisor to the degree that president bush depends on it . In recent years, probably the last 40 years, theres been a tendency to hold back president ial papers more and more, its escalating with each year. Even when we were working johnson, a lot of was going to be used would not be open later for the people until years went by taken a while to train scribes. The tendency of president s to close off records. Eventually it will be opened up by that time, the events and understanding of the context, would make it harder to get that job i think in some ways, even more problematic for people will be the idea as we talked about earlier, diaries are not being kept in the middle of the white house. We will not have a intimate record people have. You have any interactions with the first lady, Sadie Johnson . In a relationship did you have in putting the book together . I got to know her in the last two years when i was going down because the state. Shes one of the classiest women ive ever known. She protected him, is working on her own at the time she came down to be with him, its almost like i could be a counselor. He knew somebody at his side every moment when i was there, like to believe shes free to go somewhere because i could keep him company about her, the stability she provided, i dont think you would ever have become what he did. Two so different from them, empathetic, compassionate. When he would yell at somebody, she would never do that. Loved her, theres no question about that. Did you ever get the johnson treatment . Not really. Maybe because i saw into that other people. I dont think i could ever yell at somebody in public and for any thing. He did the white house, he did feel that the next day maybe a car would arrive at the present home as a makeup, i didnt mean to yell at you. It think as part of the Younger Generation didnt understand the warm be a mom had to be fought. I suspect later in his life, i know might his power, and sure he would never have talked to me as openly as he did were spent as much time with me as he did he would have time. Id like to respond to your answer. The leaders of the world, finance and overthrow of the administration so i could convince to become a dictator. His financing germany for the purpose of the communists and the communist eventually have the fascism they created. I like your you like to respond to your answer. Youre right things were so confusing at that time, we now look at communism as a negative force in the world no question about that and world war ii. Without russia, without the stability ability to join after hitler tried to defeat russia and russia came back things would have been very different. Fascism which have much greater chance of existence. There were fights here between communist and fascism, the world much better off at least with fascism destroyed. They inspected the earlier ideology, which had to do with labor process and talked about earlier, thats coming to the loss of Civil Liberties topheavy government or something ideologically they were right about the beginning it went awry. We are going to watch other calls for a quick problem. I like to say the fact that russians think they recreated it was moving tanks in germany in the 30s. Thanks for the call. San diego. Thank you, steve and putting us on. I appreciate this opportunity. Spent more time trying to get through to you guys rock concert in my youth. [laughter] is could win, thank you for taking my call. Been working on a documentary about an event that occurred in los angeles, specifically 23r 23rd, 1967. President johnson from his democratic fundraiser his Reelection Campaign that been working on this about four years, you are an inspiration to me in the way she is the story for so long, really supporting the present. My question to you is, do you have any event this was known as the century protest also on this flooding friday. I happened to be old baby at the spent theres a picture published in the free press of what seemed to be police batons, government baby chair and my mom sending them off. I know white house documents one of these sent to the white house because the president said he didnt see the civil unrest occurring outside the hotel. Wondering if you have any personal knowledge of this event and or is your opinion on the effect of the Antiwar Movement is demonstrations johnsons decision not to run again in march of 68 . , specifically about that event but youre right, antiwar demonstrations for increasing and 67 and 68. Johnson felt unable to go around the country and is limited to sermons and going when he gave speeches not being able to be a street this was before them. Im sure that and 68, on the country campaigning what it would be difficult. It is hard for him to see the signs. Movement had grown in intensity and he knew he lost a large part of the American People lets what i think made him withdraw johnson said lost Middle America but even before the 67, seen massive demonstrations and he mustve known it would impede a chance he had to go around the country. Energy was phenomenal. Stay up until 3 00 a. M. Even if there were just three people left in a crowd couldnt get the energy back on the ground because he wouldnt be able to go around the country again so the Antiwar Movement, produced the primary pelvic cavity and he didnt want to run against Bobby Kennedy demonstrations were taking place, had something to do with him withdrawing. Recent segment johnson as attorney general specifically to get his father, tom park to resign in Supreme Court to nominate partial. That was an amazing tape for you hear Lyndon Johnson talking and he wants to put on but most importantly, he wants tom off but he wanted to get tom off the he said i like to go into the office but it cant happen some sort of a conflict of interest. Next thing you know, just to his father and said hes going to retire even though he wasnt that old. He played three different people. In reference to lbj, i think some go into public life, if they go in, we are never going to work out in the end because they dont know when they are apart from the crowd. He had this enormous hole inside that needed to be filled by the applause of the people. Some flowers for everybody goes up and down and reputation, and president s go through tough errors, thats right there with the difference between making my argument wanted the office and power to accomplish something at the time so that, he could be driven by that logical. Johnson eventually became president , he had larger goals in mind and i think he became a stronger person. Cap until then, he just needed to have that support from the people for something that wasnt quite the. Thank you for taking my call. How are you able, in writing your book on lincoln, to stay on topic when there are so many other interests and tidbits you can find yourself going on tangents . Are you going to do a book signing here . I am, i am coming in a few weeks. I cant wait to see the new library. I was there to groundbreaking so i thought i saw in the early stages. He sounds amazing. Its true, you do get off on tangents and get involved with everybodys life you just have to make sure you dont let the narrative be destroyed. He had a daughter when she was 16, she wanted to be a writer so she started to keep a diary in her diary is wonderful. She keeps it until shes 21 when she died 21. She thought you should couldnt have a career as a writer and been married she put into the direct became so interested in it. I was going to go have a chapter on one of the other and you have to decide you have to cut back. She is such an interesting sad creature was a beautiful woman of her age. Everybody courted her and she married a lovely man. I found the letters between her and her husband as he turned out to be an alcoholic and abusive. I found those letters as well. All that was passed my books look like one paragraph in the epilogue but to keep involving yourself and all the people in the key is you have to decide when to introduce them and went to cut them out just say some other day i might write about these people or i can talk about it with my friends benefit but their stories in here, the book will be 700 pages but now 12,000 and nobody will be able to pick up. Is a photograph in your book, he said i heard counts on secretary said in the can passed away, one said belongs to the angels now. Twentyfour hours, it was reported he said now he belongs to the ages. That is true. Four or five different accounts, some said he now belongs to them, its funny those moments just about picture where a lot of people were there that night he was assassinated. Into this Peterson House across the street the cabinet came, his friends came, secretaries can but at the end, more people claim they were there and were actually there. They could not have possibly kept all those people together. Robert was done that night was reported to the paper but the words we now remember, now he belongs to the agent just a wonderful tribute especially with his tribute after he died. Tucson, arizona. Next,. Calling from tucson and my first introduction to you is to the baseball series which made me a great fan of you. Anyway, i was wondering the impression. Is a passionate enthusiastic character that makes all of the things he does in july. He came because he knew he would be making the brooklyn dodgers and red sox, given such underdogs they work and passion around them he knew i had been fans i had no idea, we talked for maybe an hour, i do have and you think will be on for like a half a minute or two so i told him everything about everything. Somehow all these things were put on the air but it was a wonderful expense. Something i book on roosevelt cannot sing his documentary cannot so everywhere i went to talk about roosevelt, people would ask me about facebook because they would see his documentary. Is that responsive people, women coming up to me and think we have a similar relationship with our father. He taught me how to keep score. Its not about the memories of growing up a similar town to where i grew up and never would have written a memoir. It seemed ridiculous because i wasnt a public figure that i decided to grow up talking about that and he gave me so much more than i could have possibly imagined to recreate that time in my life and anyone who grew up in the 50s i think theres something universal about our lives and have to have a lock on your bike. Living baseball is passionate as we did in the early civil rights era, it turned out it struck a chord because it was my story because it was a lot of other stories as well. Elizabeth . Charlie everett. I think way back in like 1912, is the slowest. New york city. My question is for missus goodwin, the contrast between lincoln, he had former very little former education, he wrote incredibly beautiful speeches and letters and the current chief executive comes from a background of wealth and privilege, he seems unable to even write a simple sentence that seems to be in politics today, we dont have great speakers or writers. Im just curious about that. One of the things that struck me about lincolns education compared to education today, he didnt have a lick of education but he was so deep in the things he read. One child, he had to scour the countryside for books they are some of the best literature and our history. He read shakespeare, the king james bible, he writes poetry. It allowed him to become, he obviously had extraordinary talent to become a great writer. The literature allowed him to transcend his surroundings. Theres nothing like a book to get away into literature, he was able to go to spain and portugal and the love of books was so much a part of him that because it was some thought, think of credit with the education today, it is so broad. You can take so many different courses, fragments of of course, maybe they dont get deep feeling of the literature as they might just wrote and edited, is like a muscle and him from the time as a child and it developed more and more. So many speech writers on the staff, theyre not doing it themselves. So they are not Getting Better because it is part of their important but it is important because communicating to the country and being able to give them a sense of where youre taking the central tool for a president. Television cant take away the words, the words have to be there. Roosevelt went on, i always thought he was like our current president. Turns out, two or three years because he worked on himself so hard, it would take a whole week out of his presidency to make sure the words were right. Not just for our president s but our young people is what needed. Saturday morning, he received a phone call early in the day, got off the phone and your father says town is gone. My pal is on. What happen . My mother had a weakened heart and had several protection is going up but somehow i still never thought she would die. She died in her sleep that night. Fifteen years old, the hardest thing is that you cant imagine right away that it happened so my sister was the and i had this wonderful little sister who came and stayed home with our family. She was a nurse in new york at the time so she could take care of me and became a second mother to me. Youre that age, he dont even appreciate the loss. I have my own children. Id never be able to share my mother with them or my father. The older you get, the more devastating it is to lose a parent at that age. Somehow you think, you just force yourself to have life go on. Your back with your friends and later, i felt more i realized what it created in my life. On a lighter note, he talked about your sister being embarrassed when your mom was pregnant with you. Yes. One sister was 15 and one fourth ten was born. They probably thought one of these old parents doing . So thank god she did get pregnant, i am glad for the. My first question is, why do you believe there is animosity between Lyndon Johnson and Robert Kennedy was at political differences or personalities, personal problems . Second question, have you considered writing a book about canada . I think animosity between Lyndon Johnson and kennedy was partly personal and partly political. Somehow they just hated each other. Just coming up against somebody and you cant stand them, it is exacerbated by the fact that johnson was made president , is a powerful majority leader in his left out of the loop on decisions that kennedy was making, somehow, the two of them got along well. When he wasnt getting invited to meetings, he always blamed bobby. Bobby is keeping him out of meetings. Then when he became president , i think bobby felt johnson was upstaging his brother. He is an important president , it happened under his watch and therefore somehow his brother in history would be lessened. Potentially running against the presidency, it only makes it worse but it was absolutely between the two people. It ended with president kennedys becoming president and it didnt go any further but so many wonderful books written about his presidency but id have to figure out a different. Into it if i were going to follow up with the. Your next. I have three questions. Can you name a current sender resembles a true democrat in the 60s . Was president lincoln, is it true he was the father of income tax mostly for defense of our country, not really for social problems . Last, you think lincoln and Martin Luther king would be proud of black americans and Civil Rights Movements spending first it seems to me there squandering, they are fighting for civil rights given to them. I think the hardest thing for leaders now is that after the fight for segregation was one and after the Voting Rights act was put into place, to argue about education and poverty is so much more, it is harder to have a focus think that is part of why we havent seen the same kind of dramatic leadership we had in 1960s. I suspect the times are make that much harder. We havent seen great leaders anywhere for the last few years so its probably not fair to blame the black leaders anymore than leaders in general. When i think about who embodies the values, democrats or republicans, the most important thing and had was extraordinary empathy to be able to see both sides. He gave a great speech in his young man and he argued, youre never going to change people by denouncing them. He understands the best way to a persons heart is to understand them not just simply show them. I think what we need is not somebody who simply occurs democrat or republican, somebody who can understand for both sides are coming from. The problem now is our system makes up more. Television loves people or counterpoint can say exactly what they feel. Look at john mccain, one of the people trying to understand the democrats are even though hes republican. Youre never going to get anywhere with this denunciation recent denunciation which is where our politics are today. Lincoln would be sad about that, i think. Organ. I had the great pleasure of listening to you speak, it was a wonderful expense. My question is about mary lincoln and how she was treated by his colleagues and supporters of thinking after he was assassinated. Also, he came across in your research, any information about an ancestor of mine who reportedly was a close friend of mary lincoln. He was a new yorker and he supported mary after lincoln died, helping her. She was worried about whether she had enough money she wrote lots of letters to every, you should look for them because if you can find your ancestor, the sad thing, even when she became first lady, there was no place for her. She is married to Abraham Lincoln, the northerners accepted her because she had stepbrothers in the confederate army. Easterners that she was cool because she was a westerner so she tried to redecorate the white house and make it a simple make it the one thing for his presidency but at the time, there wasnt enough money. They seemed like is the wrong thing. Reputation during the presidency was hurt a lot. When he died, wasnt the same support, and it seemed unfair anyway, they were providing pension for other people and they didnt want the finally had to fight to get a pension. I think it was in part because she had bad press during his presidency and she thought they owed it to her afterwards in the last years, she was worried about money and unwisely spending it. She might have been manic depressed. She brought 300 pairs of gloves on time. Able to get out of the asylum pretty soon he put her in and then theres a sad ending so what should have been a happier life. Is a ball shortly before he passed away. I was that significant in your book . Mary was trying to figure out a new social function that would be dramatic for the white house. Most of the white house receptions were open to anybody so they would have accrued affairs in their coming up with the diplomat side so she had invitation only ball. Its very exciting. She planned it for weeks and weeks. Right before the event, her friends got very sick. She thought she should cancel the ball but lincoln decided the doctor said they were recovering and it would be all right. So the public but during the night of the ball, which should have been her tribe, everybody said it was a great innovation, she kept going upstairs to see him and when he died, not long thereafter, she felt it was her pride and desire to do these things in the white house that somehow it offended thought and ended with him dying. Boston. You are a wonderful speaker. Id like to ask you two questions. Have you ever thought of recording some of the interesting stories of history . Second question, do you think the war in iraq is actually a skirmish of larger conflicts between islam and christianity . As far as recording the stories, its a wonderful thing i think about, but i am a part of it or not, its great to allow peoples voices and more and more with living people, even during world war ii, went to work in the factories. The stories they told, you could never get them in histories were transcribed. The general idea of transcribing stories is critical. Factories, when the husband came home, they suddenly saw the wives working independently writing a check, what are you doing . Youve never written a check before. He somehow felt like they would become of trees when they found the husband can deal with it in the outcome. Some of the stories that make up the best part of history of these people so i am in favor of oral history but i do it or not. As far as your second idea, we are in something large right now between not just our country but drink democracy and islam, we just have to hope it doesnt become a larger war. Theres no sense of compromise, we could be in for a very long and very bad time. We just have to hope it doesnt escalate into Something Like that. This evidence of it already. Last question from your first book, from illinois. From illinois. To say im a huge fan of cspan and tv. Thank you for the opportunity to ask this question, the research youve done on the president to be examined, for the youve been able to identify fatal flaws in the presidency and im particularly interested in Lyndon Johnson, i really enjoyed your book. The fatal flaw, its probably not just Lyndon Johnson. When things get tough for president , what seems to happen is a profound with the people who support their points of view. They got difficult when the country selfsupporting as they had. Rather than reaching out to sanders might have given him a different perspective on what to do in the work, there is that natural tendency to surround himself with the people who agreed with him and the only means you get deeper into a hole. I think it probably is a lot that today, when things are difficult, time is there to reach out to people who disagree with you, who can debate and argue with you see you can see other points of view and maybe get out of the hole youve been in. Was surprised you the most . The most superficial thing is having seen sad eyes lincoln had, having known about his temperament, i have no idea how dynamic personality he had. Im sure penny understood that but to me, he ended up being much more vital and alive. It is he seemed even sexier in his picture. As a great picture of him and theres a sense in which he is a rugged base, i think its page 200, disheveled hair, maybe i just like disheveled hair. My husband has disheveled hair. Its not the image we have when we think of him in the monument. I realized he was the one start Cabinet Meeting the funny story and relax people by telling a joke. The jokes were so funny and amusing and had something to do with what was going on. As a force in him i hadnt suspected him. I respected him and liked him but i didnt realize that. Clinical genius of graham lincoln. Complete list of all of her work is available booktv. Org. Thank you. Please come back again. You are watching book tv on cspan2, television for serious readers. While every saturday evening the summer, we are taking the opportunity of several hours of programs, some are archives with an altar. Tonight was with with doors good one. Books including president lincolns cabinet, personal and political life of president johnson and her own mom work that focuses on her love of baseball. Thanks, 2013 miami book fair, she discusses her book on the relationship between Theodore Roosevelt and William Howard taft. Thank you for the great introduction. Welcome, everyone, to this great experiment. It is not in his 30th year. [applause] its so good to have you here. Welcome to miami this is a premier annual event so its good to have you here. Both written books about president s who are part of the progressive era. It started by Theodore Roosevelt because hes known as teddy so how did he start and propelled him to act . For his successes still with us today . Even though he didnt like to be called teddy, i think hes lost that battle with teddy. Teddy roosevelt came into power at a time when the aspects of the Industrial Age have not been dealt with the civil war. There is no real workmens com comp. , huge monopoly, the gap between the rich and the poor, sounding somewhat similar situations today. A similar kind of economic change and even though he was conservative when he started in a certain sense and certainly republican when he started, he realized the Republican Party would not be able to continue as a major force and majority force unless it began to deal with these problems of the Industrial Age so even as governor, he tried to introduce reform legislation, and gringos tied in with the old order so they thought they would dump them into the vice presidency where he would have no power and there be the end of him. Then kennedy was assassinated he became president. Understood the only way he could move his reluctant congress to take to legislation as necessary was to mobilize the country to push them so thats why he defined the word of the president s power to educate and move the country forward but he needed help and he had help from the press at the time. They were progressives and had their own agenda as did the social settlement groups. As an uprising from the country at large to know something had to happen but he was home so he will ever identified with the progressive era. I always wanted to live with him and finally after all these other characters, i got a chance to be with his most colorful, exacerbating, extraordinary figure so sometimes i wonder what im doing spending my life with the president but i wouldnt change it for anything in the world. [laughter] lets continue in chronological order. You included him in your book as well. How did they become close . I didnt know that much about taft, i just needed to solve the Progressive Movement up to the time when he beat him. I know he succeeded teddy and they ran aga e