Bookstore and other independent sellers. Also the incredible Boston Review and the editors all of us have been proud by what has been curated by Boston Review but in this moment before the countrys more famous publications were willing to run racial capitalism and the ethics of resistance Boston Review provided one of the major forums for these ideas to be debated and it still does theres not many publications who can match the commitment to get space to debate across the political spectrum or insisting on the significance of race as a broader question of justice and democracy and citizenship. Its a real honor to be here at a panel cohosted by Boston Review. As a reminder the contributions all go to three important organizations critical resistance National Bailout devoted to attending mass incarceration with pretrial detention or one womans love to empower black women and girls in stockton california. The format today is 40 or 45 minutes of discussion i will moderate before he take questions from the audience please use the q a button below and to imagine a panel of scholars from when youre about to hear today. And as we finished talking today to hear more about their work. So one that i think is the most influential and of our generation the newly appointed professor of law and associate professor of africanamerican studies is author of the Phi Beta Kappa book from the war on poverty to the war on crime. Second, one of the few towering interpreters of africanAmerican History from ucla professor of American History, robin kelly his classic works, race rebels, freedom dreams and awardwinning biography have fundamentally reshaped how we write and think about rice on race and class and gender. Third my dear brother cornell west who in my mind is a true intellectual giant writing in cultural criticism especially keeping faith and democracy matters to the indispensable archive to think through the spiritual cultural and crises of the modern age. And last but not least and last but not least the most prominent black radical thinker of our generation to produce the most widely read and debated reflections on contemporary politics for the movement of black lives assistant professor her works include from black lives matter to black liberation. In the Pulitzer Prize finalist race for profit how banks and the Real Estate Industry undermine homeownership. This is an Amazing Group and without any further ado i hope you give them a round of applause at home and lets dive into what they have to say. Lets begin with robin. In a recent interview you gave showed an argument that was provocative and could orient our discussion today you drew on reverend barbara from the Poor Peoples Campaign to say were living through a third reconstruction. Im just curious what you mean by that phrase and how you think it helps us to understand what is at stake in the present . Its also great to be with this Amazing Group of people reverend barbara i use that term in the book and also because when we publish the book and what he was proposing to recognize what w eb the boys had published of democracy so if you look at the different moments for former enslaved people to expand social democracy to include everyone and of course it was crushed under jim crow. The second reconstruction was the attempt to expand democracy to everyone. Again still based on the constitutional understanding that somehow the promise of america had not been fulfilled so the fundamental constitutional claim to provide those rights and part of that includes Economic Justice so with issues of housing the third reconstruction i would argue is it something of poverty but is the attempt to remake not just the United States but the world to recognize this country in the modern world was founded on gender violence and White Supremacy and this vision of abolition is not simply tweaking the constitution better jails are policing or training but a new means to remake justice as a whole and we dont just mean overturning criminalization but that affirmative form of justice with reparations for 500 years of oppression and also to create new possibilities for life to deal with the catastrophe of the environment and to free the body from all the constraints of gender and sexual norms. This is a much wider vision of freedom based on the abolitionist project but then the last thing have to say is like every reconstruction there is always the backlash it didnt just simply fail it was completely overthrown. So what we are facing now is the potential for the reversal for the overthrow if we can achieve what i am mentioning but in the future that could be fascist or Something Else in between but thats how i see it in terms of the opportunity to be unprecedented. Seeing how Central Prison and Police Abolition is to the third reconstruction, whats really interesting about the last few weeks is these ideas are more central to debate than any time in American History or my memor memory. Even with the insurgents of that line of critique, it still no secret that large segments of black communities are politely ambivalent or afraid of the implication of the demands to defund or abolishing the police writing about selective hearing calling for reform and they are worried people only hear defund the police and not invest in anything else. There have the luxury to Treat Community violence as an abstract question we know in the four weeks following George Floyds killing murders in chicago rose by 79 percent over last years numbers new york and baltimore saw 31 and 17 percent jump respectively. One thing that concerns people it seems different than the violence from the 19 nineties that was more tied to the drug economy. They are concerned about what to do with the possibility of abandonment in a time of austerity and crime in the midst of these demands for abolition. So if you could speak to what type of Committee Crime or violence these people call for defunding the police or abolition can give for those black communities to adopt their views with the reconstruction robin has outlined. Im not entirely convinced there is a widespread support was talking about so just as an example of the organization for the owl movement provides aftercare and services to families affected by violence in stockton. It has higher rates of poverty and gun violence then places we think of like chicago and many families have lost loved ones to violence especially if the murders are labeled as being related are completely denied any type of crime compensation benefit. Thats where the owl movement steps into the vacuum for funding for fundamental Services Empowerment , workshops healing circles and prayer as a way to deal with these communities in the five years since i will has been operating 25 million for gang violence. So already we see a shift for the owl movement is the future. Things that are premised on violence. That kind of reimagining to care of communities that is the future and what abolition is all about. Suggest briefly the fact we have these conversations within the larger context is important. Its not as if the social harm that we see it exist in a vacuum because there is a cycle of collective Community Violence and others who have been harmed themselves. So why is it in communities where police and surveillance and incarceration than people of color are more likely to die premature . This process begins as the war on crime unfolds and we get rebellion. Thousands not just during the long hot summers or big cities with a hard question we need to frame with social harm or violence is how the external violence against state forces is internal and there is a threepronged war that emerges from the federal government with communities of color and the struggle that emerges against one another. To say these cant be separated and provided the means through which and who facilitates the economies and prison its the police. So we need to ask how the state violence precipitates with the entangling of those conditions to chicago and baltimore today. The first thing i would say is its a real problem. With poor workingclass black people. There is no point to be something other than what it is. And what emerges out of the failures of what has preceded it. And what has gravitated so quickly to defend the police the failures of the reform are so new that its hard to explain away and dismiss to distort the history of the failures. We remember body cameras and this would solve the problem. More black Police Officers and better communities the same recycled argument we for the last 50 years and then to be sprinkled in with the first iteration of black lives matter. Thats one part. The second part is imagine we spend that grotesque amount of money on police but yet here we are talking about the wave of crime to add than flow. In chicago to spend 40 percent of the operating budget on police. We are talking about a spike in crime during the summer over the last few weeks. So clearly investing exclusively in policing does not solve the problem. The lack of resolution because of that a. M. Part of that and to defund Public Education and with that infrastructure that make cities operate. And in the second decade of the 20th century the same kinds of issues we were dealing with for three quarters of the 20th century maybe we need to do something different. And the conversations about this issue. And with the Political Class to ridicule the ideas and to being us back to the narrow framework of police or no police. Talking to ordinary people and that is the option, then you automatically have a different type of conversation. Yes, the tens of billions of dollars that go to police and to reuse the mask during a pandemic comes out of a hollywood feature film from 100 years from now. We need to change the calculus. There is investment in jobs and healthcare and i completely different quality of life. I guarantee you frame the discussion around that, should be paid the police to kick their asses all over the neighborhood or investing in transforming the institutions that make a public life in cities . Its a nobrainer. But we havent framed that debate that way and that is the urgency of these conversations there is the ideological battle theres not enough money. What never applies to the police just everything else. Lets change the discussion is change the debate because im confident on our side. I dont know about theres. This raises the next crucial point. The picture you are painting is one that sounds like the democratic socialist vision that animated much of the resurgent left over the last few years and that was the most successful socialist campaign and history. So when those ideas are on the table in the electoral aren arena, they lost in no small part with workingclass voters voting for joe biden. You put blood sweat and tears into the Sanders Campaign and on the board for decades. You have been making this case and churches and communities what is your autopsy of the sanders defeat and prospects for rejuvenated socialist nation . That point is crucial if you have a voting block on your account to be well served by this vision of politics to trust the judgment of james clyburn. I just want to salute you on your vision for the Civil Rights Movement with my brothers and sisters here are such a profound source of inspiration for me. But in part what we are dealing with with the black leadership and then to convince the brothers and sisters of all colors that puts poor working people at the center and instead we have neoliberal black leadership and intellectuals that are cheerleaders that dont allow that vision and analysis and then when the social movement hits they want to act they are at the center instead of on the other side. We have to tell them the truth and thats painful we are living in a declining empire with the militarized state and to drop bombs in the middle east and military units we have to talk about defunding the pentagon at the same time wall street centered economy and thats what bernie was talking about. But our leadership is tied to wall street so thats a precondition we can even get at the fundamental source. With everything for sale everybody is for sale including the media and the notions of honesty and taking a risk or going against the grain with that the preoccupation is about we have to be honest enough to tell our fellow citizens thats a tradition from which we come and given this particular moment we have to be willing to say lo and behold too many are distractors or entertainers who are not open to this vision and analysis called freedom dreams using our imagination to an alternative to the nightmare president and in conclusion this the two best pieces of what im talking about. The new yorker and how do you change america. Know how you got into those neoliberal venues with your voice it is so prophetic in that way. We need more those voices as a cacophony but rooted in the truth telling and honesty to convince folks that if black people are the most progressive voting block in the american empire but cannot support the most progressive candidate in the history with Bernie Sanders then something is happening. The hegemony of the leadership gets in the way we have to be honest about that. Critical with each other. You have keep sweating on the black intellectual bingo card you are the winner today. [laughter] but i really want to talk about the piece that is important as well. You Say Something that struck me that class tension among africanamericans has produced new fault lines for racial solidarity cannot overcome when you call for a new era but i want to press two questions for you to clarify if this class fracturing is so profound with solidarity cannot overcome it why not call for any new black politics at all . Just pronounce it dead once and for all. You might think for example the full rhetoric of the shared vulnerability of Police Violence and that appeal isnt just analytically misguided for those that are killed by the police or native american and brothers and sisters not just analytically misguided but politically dangerous so adolph reed would say these frames allow for black elites to redirect their moral revulsion to diversify Corporate Board and things like that for what you are laying out powerfully. Why dont we give up the language black politics altogether so when you speak out at the New York Times so with the congressional black caucus. It has residents is not because of something that i say or what a talking head says because black people are the oppressed minority in the United States. So even when there are tensions even among the black Political Class and with that might mitigate it i can be extremely critical of someone like the mayor of washington dc and neoliberal and basically attacked by donald trump and the Republican Party it is racist and sexist. The reason to have residents is because of that. That possibility of course it is much different than pre jim crow but jim crow help to press the black community in singular spaces where there has to be a means of coexistence. Those that dont exist to the same degree but there is sympathy that exist among black people and obama despite his be nine presidency with improving the condition of black people is still incredibly popular among africanamericans that is why Michelle Obama is popular among africanamericans. That being said, the further we get away from the period of civil rights and the political insurgency that erupted during that period, the more the class communities are entrenched. I started to think about the article three weeks before it came out. Originally in the article was the mayor of new orleans who is in the midst of breaking a strike of black sanitation workers by using black laborers to break the strike of the black garbage workers with an increase in pay and hazard pay because of covid. So i chart this and some of it is a publication i think theres always been over the last 50 years a black caucus for above and below. The reemergence of black politics with the development of the black political left and the proliferation of organizations over the last five or six years that points to the attention it has always existed was cities and suburban areas that puts workingclass black people in direct confrontation with managers and that is the dynamic. That creates the possibility for new alliances. Because when part of the reason with a large participation with the blm protest over the last month of june is because of what black lives matter has done to be successful to convince them and they cannot continue to prevail. Speaking the way White Millennials come to the realization that they have been confined and marooned in jobs that never allow them to pay off the debt and thats the whole premise of the American Dream to be lost for generations of white people as well. They call it death by despair opioid and addiction in suicide. But that represents a crisis of what the country used to stand for and the black movement shows a potential way out and that is what has attracted young white people because that seems like a more viable alternative fan perhaps joe biden. That is an insightful point to make of the fragmentation black politics and the Civil Rights Era and the way they have solidarity with the broader socioeconomic changes so the point of the failure of ideology to fractures solidarity is well taken and it takes me back to the earliest moment of the post Civil Rights Era. Thats where the dynamics get crystallize the first time leaders take power, the first time people have to we think the relationship in a sustained systematic fashion is black elected officials i dont see a lot of reflection in this moment in debate. I thought it would be a good thing for us to discuss. I was hoping robin might say a little bit about questions on my mind that in the wake of black power to criticisms from the left and has a force. And the symbolic politics is too easy commodified turned into another capitalist lifestyle. You may think pet smart sends me notes how much black lives matter and amazon tells me about black lives matter with policies toward the black workers we are in a similar moment leading me back in the anecdote about new orleans, where is labor . In the fight between the different organizing models of black power activist that pushed for labor unions to be the major vehicle, they didnt lose in that moment it was the coming out of it. So with those critiques and if we learn to the right lesson for black power for now . Part of my responses to the point that to go back with the first black power conference of course corporations are very quick to seize the language of black struggles and black movement, that happens all the time. Talking about the sanitation workers strike under the mayor in atlanta, he broke the sanitation workers strike their. He would not negotiate he fired them all. He was the model for reagans attacks. So in some respects what he talks about in terms of even today the neoliberals across the divide we can see that in that. Not just these class tensions but who will represent black liberation. Plaque capitalists became the ones who claim black liberation. The new politics conference in chicago, doctor king was shut down because he presented analysis against those leaders and then push the antiwar position of a former radical but king was shut down. We havent done enough homework to know the relationship between those people who identify with black power in the movement. And the movement and to build the most Level Program of any trade Union Movement in history. And even with white workers to come out of that they did not agree but they push the statute to make reparations the revolutionary black workingclass urgency. Not just cadillacs but to weekend the states legitimacy for the progressive movement. Because of the failure of the white workers. And then that Rainbow Coalition and for those in the seventies did not push the program. And they were defeated by who . The black mayor and black members of the city council. And in the sixties and seventies is that organizations are here we are july 20th is the date marked thats coming up people need to know about it. But with black lives to highlight the fact that the essential workers are not giving support and protection into push back against the idea what they claim as a mantle while exploiting and undermining black workers. So having said that who are the essential workers . Reproductive labor. And those that still exist to look at it as the essential work in the Poor Peoples Movement is much closer and then they have been pushing for this to get the Michigan Organization and fighting 25 years in the privatization of water. And fighting for peoples abilities. So the basic needs with black power workingclass organization try to push a radical agenda and the socialist agenda. In the end up being pushed out. So now we are starting to see a divide. It is that we have to Pay Attention to. Just like cornell said. If we have these politicians to claim the mantle of the oppressed people that plays a role to crush the movement and continue to push and for all then to see the slow progression and ive set a lot. I want to make sure all of our audience with over 800 people in attendance, hope you have sent questions in but i want to ask one last question to elizabeth. Please try to be brief but following in robins point so to see the era of experimentation as a failure of federal policy to support grassroots organizations to create more democratic space to be the agonistic democratic public and those that are happening in welfare bureaucracies in the public parts department. And you have written a lot about the demise of that project. So for this moment and with federal support for that kind of investment. And those who have no interest and then be willing to experiment of the participation that you talk relatively fondly about in your book. So we have lost faith because the state has not worked for them. There was this moment when the outcome could have been different and that is one of the real tragedies of that era that there was this window the federal government granted autonomous organizations directly. Every time there has been an extension Citizenship Rights or tendencies from slavery to jim crow, the insidious disease with new forms of incarceration or segregationist regine regime which was part of the construction the federal government was instrumental to secure the most successful aspects to the building of black institutions. The federal government has been a troubled ally in terms of bringing about Racial Justice but it has played a role. Talking about the need for the neoliberal but the new progressive surge of candidates that we are seeing in the new conversations within the party we would hope to bring about vision of governance but full employment and universal healthcare and addressing the Climate Crisis , then we can return to the vision he should be funding the efforts and if we imagine to address thes issues of Racial Injustice in a new way to facilitate to empower local people on their own terms. And to be prepared to give something up to do that. That federalism and government can be structured. We are getting the questions. Just to get as many as we can. We will keep the answers short. Everybody feel free to jump in answer. So one is a push back with the description of blm is a movement from below. Every the question as the problem of its and appropriate description. Obviously he again and then there is another question how to even think about legitimacy given the structure of politics. And there was a protest from the black lives Matter Organization that she didnt know about. But at the same time there is an award given our funding given she will be one of the people that is put forward so how do we think of the legitimacy question and if its appropriate to describe it. And with that analysis and vision. Know what i mean by that is and those that believe in with those imperial links around the world to level the wealth inequality in most of the money and policing activity for the filling social needs. That is a vision and analysis. They can be out there supporting fascism you see that in the trump rallies. So we are losing our sense of morality and decency and spirituality and imagination. And the particular identity rather than the quality and the level of what people see and analyze and courageously willing to sacrifice. I know we dont have time to get into it but you have to play yourself and be nonconformist. And then to be disproportionately black with White Supremacy to disappear tomorrow but in america is capitalist and imperialist that im with the black agenda report. Now we know they are tied together and thats complicated but we have to be honest about that. So any movement is more than it structures. If you go out to these demonstrations with the New York Times has told us 26 million people. So we had an uprising in the United States this is a movement from outside and below. So with them black lives matter itself we go regardless of those making of the organization is that this is a movement to transform basic aspects of American Society to stand outside the realm of power. Of course with any movemen movement, there are questions of democracy and accountability and who speaks for whom. And the these questions are unresolved and they remain unresolved in the current manifestation of protest. But i would say every social movement has to wrestle with those questions and how the political agenda is formed and how the relationship and the membership and leadership and everybody wants to say we are leader fall but we know there are always leaders who wore accountable one you are accountable on those who are not. Those questions do not diminish and to characterize this as a bottomup movement. And with the United States. Next question there is a question on the table about the framing of the third reconstruction. They are asking for so much momentum in the Democratic Party around the new deal is the green frame. So what is the distinction or framing things reconstruction and then to add to that. And that is a central piece to take that alternative framing. The new deal wasnt about fundamental reconstruction and revolution but the management of transfer of wealth to the poor working people without them being in a leadership position. Thats very important so talk to reconstruction and then to have fundamental transformation with the transfer of power and wealth and resources in respect so right now the neoliberal and the neofascist wing none of them want to talk about fundamental transformation they still talk about managing the system