History. So if you will join you for just a second and reflecting together on that. And then we could start a little belated. [silence. Alright thank you. So this is a book that began, i began writing this book in the fall of 2014. And i began writing because i was invited to st. Louis to give a talk on washington university. I felt called to talk about the murder of Michael Brown in the protests on the uprising. So i was invited to october, went there and felt that i had to go out and present what was happening because i am a missourian and i felt that was a history in which i was both one i knew very well, and one that i was implicated in. And so with the particular kind of turn of mind, that i have, i started to look at the political economy with a particular simple straightforward riddle which is how could it be that the city of ferguson that has a 26 billiondollar corporation within the city limits, 26 billion a year, emerson electric, how could that city the funding poor black motorists for revenue . The argument behind that question being to try to understand the deeper historic structural economic materials dimensions of the obviously overgrown character of the Ferguson Police department. And its degree of harassment of the black citizens of ferguson and of north county generally. So, that led me to it an investigation of the history of race and real estate. In 20th century st. Louis. And that became an article that was in the atlantic. In a way, that was where the project was going to end for me. I am a proud missourian, i love missouri. But i left missouri for about 9000 reasons. It was difficult to decide to go back. And i knew it would involve a complicated encounter with where im from and my path so i resisted that for a long time. But at some point, writing more, thinking more, really thinking about the 19th century wars were my previous work was through my teaching, i started to recognize what i thought was a particular peculiar kind of inter linkage of the History History of st. Louis. On the way i came to find that in my mind, it seems to me that it was kind of a similarity in the way that western missourians, western whites, migrants from places like virginia, kentucky, and tennessee to missouri approached missouri in relationships of native americans which was a place that should be aye mans country. Soleil approached missouri within them. Expulsion the list, increasingly after about 1824, extermination is approach native americans. And at the same time, i saw that kind of attitude reflected in their approach to free people of color. In subcu contrast, few imagine post and type blackness there is nothing good to be said about i it. But it is a recognition in society that the social reproduction of the society the fervor and its the class power of slaveholders depends upon the reproduction of africanAmerican People. And in missouri it seemed to me that anti blackness, while the attitude i just described was characteristics of some of the slaveholders, the dominant terms of anti blackness were terms that by non political white migrants in missouri that was really the ideology of white mans country. And so it seemed to me the 19th century, the emergence of an approach to africanamericans among many White Missourians that was much more removal list or ekstrom is a test than what i had seen in my prior work in the deep south. That set me on a pathway of trying to track the history of removal through the 19th century and then up through the 20th century. Should check and see if roxanne is backer for john . Sure we can check, one minut minute. Right, i can just keep on keeping on here. So what i gradually, following that history of removal, into the 20th century, roxanne. Okay so i had just started to describe the genesis and talked a little bit the relationship between imperialism and the anti blackness that i saw emerging from the 19th century in missouri. Talk to the general level about that. But now that you are here, we can sort of begin anew. I want to express to everyone, beat nickel sensor regrets, she is ill but not dangerously so. Im very grateful to roxanne dunbarortiz for filling in. Guest youre welcome. Congratulations on your book and the outstanding reception that theyve had with one exception also along the regions. Its interesting to me that when you decided to write this book, was the Michael Brown murder in lichen ferguson. Of course a black lives matter had formed a little before. Your book came out just before this latest shooting. I think thered been a hundred shootings of black women and men since 2014 i have not gained this kind of reaction. For me with your book coming ou out, ma should zero be well received. Wouldnt be such a powerful tool as it is now. Could you talk about racial capitalism and about why history matters. I think that one of the central arguments of the book is the history of the United States has often been prefigured in the things that we think about with American History either happened in st. Louis, or broadcast from st. Louis. Or were expressed in extreme foreign st. Louis underway this moment in our own history which is the moment of an outrageous police murder, several outrageous murders and other murders, followed by a nationwide police riot. Reflects what happened in st. Louis in september of 2017 where there was a man called Anthony Lamar smith who was murdered by police officer. Stokley and minute and a half before he killed him said in his Police Cruiser im going to kill this mother f. Got outshot of five times. And then was seen walking about the back of his cruiser, getting something out of the bag in the back of his cruiser. Going into Anthony Lamar smiths car , coming up of the car with a pistol that was later proven to only have the dna on it. And he was acquitted. He was acquitted by a judge who said that in his experience, and the judges experience someone like Anthony Lamar smith usually carried a gun. Right . So following this episode of Police Impunity in the United States, theres an uprising with demonstration of protest or treated with the same kind of savagery and punitive the uc across United States today. I do think that there is a long history that is emerging. I am honestly a tiny bit reluctant to try to frame the most recent murders and relationship to the Historical Structures that surround them. Not because they dont flock to the history of nature and content capitalism, im sure they do. Im a little reluctant to frame them that way because we need for a moment to reflect upon the terrible specifically of each of these losses. But i can say is minneapolis for instance is a city that is in many ways similar to st. Louis and that it is a midwestern cit city. It is a city with its own form anti blackness but a long history are more prominently history of u. S. Imperialism and violence against native americans. And so, i was struck by that kind of uncanny similarity. With peace about racial capitalism confuses people. So i think my idea about it is, but the moment of the slave trade, the moment is sometime around 1444 which is really you could argue the beginning of the atlantic slave trade, 1492 was the inauguration of the european imperial project with the United States. But the terms of european phobia and the practices of capitalism are conjoined. The point however is not to say capitalism is a racist. Is to argue there is an ongoing historical relationship between racism and capitalism. Until one of things i tried to do in the book, is to chart different kinds of racial formations that correspond to different kinds of economic relationships. And so, the White Supremacy that informs the driving out, that massacre in east st. Louis in 1917, is actually not the same White Supremacy that informs the driving out in the city of st. Louis decides to tear down 500 square acres and drive out to a thousand people from a neighborhood called little creek valley 1959. They are both removal list, theyre both trying to get rid of black people but in the kids of east st. Louis, the conflict has its roots in the industrial order. Emily plants and labor economics have completely changed comments basically a gigantic real estate speculation. And so one of the things were trying to do to emphasize both kind of continual removal, but also the historical transformation of the economic parameters of anti blackness. Which in turn has implications phone on way too long about the them. [inaudible] your good. So, im a historian as well, western hemisphere, its very unusual for a u. S. Historian, trained in u. S. History within africanAmerican History like yours, to contextualize the history of the United States was an peerless on the continent. Like 1776. And particularly to locate the vortex of that in st. Louis. This is such an original book makes sense when you read it i dont know why no one thought of it exactly in that way before. I did a little bit when i was doing a history of new mexico because st. Louis took over the trade from mexico. It rerouted it. Thats how they ended up taking over. Half of mexico. How could we talk about that. I think, ive been greatly influenced by your work and various other colleagues and friends and comrades in native american studies. So to gather and lisa low and must there to single out lisa low for her help. The emphasis on forthrightly thinking about the United States of america as an imperial project. Im not taking the inevitability of the United States here something i understood on analytical level and able to teach students about. But it honestly was not the thing that i anticipated learning so much about when i started the book on st. Louis. Because st. Louis has entered the history of the 19th century and this is where i began outside of the majority compromise. This aside if youre on the left of the first general strike in the history of the United States. Start reading it fence and not been some barracks im sorry, Jefferson Barracks was in lightless. Start to read about that and discover that Jefferson Barracks was really the seat of the western department of United States army which was late for for which all of the Western Union was the first half of the 19th century where it was supported. So it was them that, the thing that i knew but had not allowed myself to fully think through became essential. In all these said it became clear to me, what is the missouri compromise but an imperial compromise. Right . What is the dred scott decision that a decision over the future of slavery in land that is not yet launched the United States question right . And what is the homestead act or the transcontinental, its seems elementary, but it was at that moment that i realized i needed to rethink some of the most basic categories that i was imploring to really fully frame the book around the question of empire and then to relate that to the history of anti blackness. And at the same time i think tried to make the argument that many of the landmark, the things we consider land marks in labor history or an africanAmerican History, number one need to be rethought according to the categories of empire. Number two, the thing that my friend got really, really, really tired of hearing me say they have the same nosy think about that together. Monica rocha summons who work really help me think about, casie park is another person who just really showed me the way. Host he is really the first named continental imperialism. The book about the building of the railroad and for the first time in this discussion that i know of, building the railroad , he included the effects on native people, native land was being taken and people did the leg work to do both. And it is amazing how historians dont ask these questions very often. And you do. You include native people in a story that if it were told by another historian, even with all of that leave out that native people as real people. In this communitys are being destroyed. I had very good teachers going all the way back your wor work, those of you who are brave enough to click the purchase button at the bottom of your screen will find many, many footnotes to roxannes work is the work of other folks because i have had really good teachers schematically have a mutual admiration. I like the dark green i wrote a rave review of it. I learned so much from that that i did not understand the bodies of slaves being the major value and wealth in the United States in the 1850s. I think that is something that plays a part in this psychotic nature of our forces because controls the value of the blackbody, the african body was diminished with freedom. So it was thrown away, killed. Whereas in the past it would have been overworked and exploited. But it can be bought and sold. So i think your Previous Group on slavery so informed this work unit talk about that . I think what you just said is exactly right. I think that one of the things this book tries to trace is a set of relationships between, it tries to maintain a distinction between exploitation and extraction. Missy might explain what i mean by that. There are many situations in the history of the United States where racism is a tool for allowing the greater exploitation of labor. Right . And slavery would be an example of that. Or the dual labor market in east st. Louis were black workers were effectively held in reserve and then used to break strikes on the part of white workers would be an example of that. But there is also a pattern that emerges and it becomes more and more prominent over the history of the 20th century where wealth is extracted from black people absent of their exploitation. Its actually one the things that we see over the course of the first half of the 20th century is black people in st. Louis fighting seed into the labor market and being excluded from the labor market. And so i track a whole series of strikes, radical labor action, labor disruptions or africanamericans are trying to gain employment and being denied employment. And at the same time, they are being subjected to other forms of abstraction. So when i mentioned Mill Creek Valley which you go to st. Louis today, you can drive through this a normal 500acre still basically undeveloped area of st. Louis which was cleared as effectively real estate speculation on two levels. Number one, you cleared land of poor people and make it available to richer people for development. Number two, you diminish immediately the Square Footage in the city. And you diminish the available Square Footage in the city. What you do as you make existing Square Footage more valuable. Right . So there is a way, there is a pattern of extraction and removal that doesnt have to do with the labor exploitation. This argument really ran and ferguson. It lands with the containment of the africanamericans and areas of st. Louis were there no jobs, no public transportation, no hope of employment. The question of how is it, its not a question, im posing a someone else is asking but not me. How can money be made from people who have been rendered in dirt from the standpoint of production . How can extraction continue even after exploitation has ended . So it is with that, it is in that moment, our moment that i think you get the economy of payday loan in payday lending, right when you get the economy of forprofit policing, the way that Police Departments, we are now becoming aware of two thirds of the budget of many of our cities goes to the police. All in ferguson, right, 2013 the Police Department was one 100 white. So there was a way that revenue was being extracted from the citizenry of ferguson. And from motorists. Im being put into an institution that was effectively about is effectively a middleclass jobs program for white people. Right . For white residents of st. Loui st. Louis. Not the microcosm of mass incarceration particularly in missouri where comic cant number where it is in the book, Something Like 18 of the 22 facilities in correctional facilities in the state of missouri are in tiny little rural white towns, right . The program of Economic Development the program of Economic Development for rural whites. So thats really where the book ends is with that question of this sort of lap murderous round of extractions. Host thats true prisons and Northern California, central valley, white people in upstate new york, all over the country, west virginia. I had never thought of that. Theres a jobs program for white people. Guest and the constructions trades its almost all down and by white union. Sue went another thing i wanted to ask her to think and ferguson maybe im wrong but its the first time i became aware, think ended the fact with the first time i became really aware about it, this militarization of the police force the weaponry thats come out within the force. Being given, forced upon police on cities, small towns, everywhere. And we saw it operating there in ferguson against the protesters. The local people. And tanks and the whole weaponr weaponry. This confluence of militarism from police that we are now seeing this time, its like on steroids. It was kind of a surprise in 2014. But now, there is six years of militarization and we see these costs coming out with peaceful demonstration in full battle gear. And with weaponry. One of the things i worked on a lot is the idea that this military state from the very beginning being formed. And the fiscal military state is a state created for war so do you want to talk about that confluence of war, capitalism racial capitalism, and the police see when if you go back to the beginning, and you think well what was the United States of america after the war of 1812, what did they spend the money on . Will Jefferson Barracks argues in the book, probably the second largest governmental installation aside from the United States capital in the early 19 century. What does is it funds the military. United states army at the beginning of the 19th century explicitly understood as a force that was to be as large as needed to fight indian wars. And so theres that kind of pattern from the very beginning. One of the things is to try to take seriously from the civil war generation the patterns of putative war that are associated particular general sherman are riddled with the civil war are patterns and techniques and the philosophy of war and of punishment that was developed out of the indian wars, particularly out of the genocidal conflict in californi california. To my amusement and joy pulling down and redecorating confederate monuments, but weve had a bit of a conversation about the confederate monuments in our society when we get to talk about Union Monuments . When we can talk about the monuments to all these indian killers . And so i think again we need to re frame our category around the history. That is complicated because in one way i really struggle with this. And in a way i have opened up had intellectual agenda for myself as well as answer the question preemie come december you like john see fremont who is by any modern standard is a war criminal. Perpetrated horrible, horrible crimes against native American People in california. In the person is on the first general emancipation in st st. Louis while surrounded not a Leadership Council but when you bring all of the generals together as a special word for it cant think of right now. They are all communist. They are like literal communist from germany surrounding fremont. So for me that is a very, very complicated and vexing moment where this imperialist is in some sense radical person in the United States at this moment. That is a contradiction of the country certainly hasnt dealt with all and think our field has dealt with. I think this is a contradiction out of which i try to write the book i feel like ive opened up a horizon of thought for myself. General Braxton Bragg is a confederate general theres a monument to him in here Northern California for bragg. This was of course in the 1850s, 1840s he was in the mexican war. And bragg was also in charge of rounding up people in Northern California, putting them in a concentration camp that they called fort bragg. And so, its named after him. So there were confederate statues were going down california, they ask that he be taken down in the army answered that statue was built for the indian wars not the civil war. Exactly, exactly. He was honored for killing indians. So right, right. Thats what im talking about. So when i think its time for us to open up, as melissa there . Melissa . So my alarm went off. Just hi, thank you very much for that discussion thats really great. I will move into some of the questions we have in the q a box. Again, if you are on the line and went to ask a question you can do so with the ask a question button at the bottom of the screen. Start with in your book you detailed the effects of covenant policing and other discriminatory measures in st. Louis. Do you see the current protest having a longer term effect st. Louis Racial Division . I hope so. I see this moment of this terrible strife on the police riot of tremendous possibility. I think these are normas brave people that confronted the police nonviolently make it excessive character of law. I hope it has an effect in st st. Louis. One of the things i tried to do right at the end of the book is to talk about several of what i see prefigurative visionary projects and st. Louis that i think are demonstrating, practically demonstrating how it is that people can live in a different sort of relationship to a place to things into one another. So i see that in st. Louis. That is a very strong thread in the history right now. I see that in seattle and autonomous zone in seattle. I think we see prefigurations of a better future. In some places very selfconscious and others not selfconscious at all. So i am strangely optimistic about the future of st. Louis. To help me with this book and says st. Louis is the right place for all the wrong reasons. I think that really epitomizes the way i feel about st. Louis right now. So thank you for the next question is is that accurate view bite niclas lemon criticized racial capitalism. At some kind of trans historical entity. Could you clarify what you mean by racial capitalism and what is the importance of linking racism and capitalism right now . Guest youre saying a got a bad review of the new yorker . [laughter] so i dont think its timeless. Thats whats important about i it. And so one of the things i am at great pains to do in the book, is not to say simply well this is a history of racism and it is the same thing over and over and over again, what im trying to say is there is a repetition of White Supremacy. There is a repetition of removal that it is a cycle that is repeated through changing Political Economic forms. And as those Political Economic forms of exploitation and extraction change, so too does the racial ideology. It is extremely interesting to me that there is a repetition of removal. But in a way the removals have different kinds of intellectual characteristics. They are accompanied by different forms of knowledge or ideology about black people. So one thing we did not talk about that becomes for the military complex to study black people. As a level that people can learn from the urban laboratory of black people in the 60s and 70s. Thats very different from the idea, the racist idea affecting ferguson. Those chinese st. Louis or the mill creek what im trying to articulate is a historic dynamic in changing dialectical relationship between exploitation, extraction, and changing notions of anti blackness. There are other things to be said about that review which i did indeed read but we can say that for a different day. [laughter] that sounds good. So another attendee asks you think we end the war on drugs that laws put in place, do you think thisll be a good step . Guest that will be a great step its a great question for the moment. It is very, very hard to say but important to say right now that the police are not the cause, they are a symptom of society. The inequality is the cause. Its what the police protects that is the problem. Its a deeper problem in society. So its there that i think we need to think of a program that is at once and tied is an abolition program in the deepest tradition matrix mosher through gilmore comments an anti capitalist program, antiimperialist program and so i want to say yes i think those things are steps. But what we really need to look at is to try to try to dismantle the deeper structures of inequality. Around basic things now. Around food, round water, round healthcare, round education. Too really start to rebuild and reimagine on a firmer footing of equality. Sue went looks like we have two more questions. Until the south of the civil war developed some of the same themes as your book, but its core argument is the union of interests in the post Civil War Republican Party to have anything to add to or do you disagree with that . I think the post Civil War Republican Party that basically undermines reconstruction and continues the course of empire to the building of the transcontinental railroad, comes out of missouri. Ants one of those times im going to be that person that my family in friends know me to it be in you say yeah that happens in st. Louis. The example of that, is karl shorts he was in many ways the impresario of the liberal republican tendency. So there is aye nationalist erasure of the claims of africanamericans. There is also a related imperial racial capitalist development of the railroad in the west and other economic connections in the United States. In st. Louis they turn out to be as suggested earlier, increasingly through the 1870 and 80s connected to mexico catch right into the Central Railway which actually for much of the late 19th century stone in st. Louis. Host okay, the final question, what ways you think your book could help blacks indigenous and black Indigenous People and their political imagination and missouri . Thank you for writing this book. Im always gratified, i do think there is, and erasure of africanamerican and native American History in st. Louis. So there is a photographer, i think the name is elizabeth has this link the other day thats gone around and photographed all of the florida indian mounds in the st. Louis metro may have just been disappeared into the landscape. And there is a scandalous underrepresentation memorialization of the unbelievable artistic, athletic, political history of st. Louis and the city itself. I think a good point to finish on, and so those are things i want to help people address. I want to work with them to try to address that. But i want to finish, ill tell you it all sincerity take a lot of my inspiration in the things i learn from what the young people in our society are doing, from what africanamericans in our society are doing. From cooperation jackson or from the nation, and so in a way, i think its from those initiatives that i have learned, i can trying to reflect some of that back. And then to try to maybe do my own little bit. Thank you so much i want to say thank you to walter and roxanne for being with us tonight. He personally found the conversation incredibly informative. I want to thank you for all for spending your evening with this on the link on the purchase bunsen at the bottom the screen part on behalf of Harvard Book Store here massachusetts have a good night, reading and please be well. Washington post hosta interviewed john bolton about his time of the administration for in this portion of the event mr. Bolton expresses concerns on the president s foreign leaders. So i dont think the president has a worldview. That to me is the essential problem. He doesnt approach National Security with the philosophy in mind pretty doesnt have a grand strategy, he doesnt have policies. Theres not much there for the russians or anyone else to manipulate. But my fear, whether to vladimir putin, or any number of other authoritarian foreign leaders, that they deutsche the president as easy to maneuver around to achieve their objective. I think that is a very real concern. To watch the rest of the Program Search for john bolton or the title of his book, the room where it happened using the box at the top of the page. offers lectures and forums presenting perspectives on important public pol