Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing On The Census Undocumented Immigrants 20240712

Legal status under the rules of congress set in the census act of 1790. The president s decision to release this illegal memo now appears designed to inflict maximum damage to the accuracy of the ongoing 2020 census. In just two weeks, the Census Bureau will start visiting the homes of millions of people who have not yet responded to the census. The president s latest attack on immigrants could sew fear and confusion in communities across the country, and could lead many people to decide not to participate. This will hurt communities that are already undercounted, underrepresented, and underfunded. Addressing the chaos caused by the president s memo will drain valuable resources from the Census Bureau, which is already struggling to administer the 2020 census in the middle of an unprecedented pandemic. And it will further divide our country at a time when we need unity. Of course, this is not the first time that President Trump has attempted to politicize the census. For more than two years, he tried to add a Citizenship Question even though the Census Bureaus own studies showed it would depress Response Rates in many communities. When this committee investigated secretary ross and other Administration Issue officials denied they were trying to exclude immigrants were congressional apportionment, and instead, claimed falsely that the department of justice needed citizenship data to enforce the Voting Rights act. The Supreme Court saw through their explanation, calling it, quote, contrived, end quote. And blocking the addition of the Citizenship Question. And when secretary ross and attorney general barr refused to turn over documents about the real reason for the Citizenship Question, the house held them both in contempt. Now the president is trying again to weaponize the census, to hurt immigrants and help republicans. As a nation, we depend on the census to be nonpartisan, fair and accurate. As i told director dillingham the next time he appeared before us. Our partnership requires it and our community relies on it and our democracy depends on it. Were here today at this emergency hearing because the Trump Administration is threatening this cornerstone of our democracy. We will hear from four former Census Bureau directors who oversaw the census during both republican and democratic administrations. They will share their views on the president s unprecedented attempts to manipulate the census count and why its important to count every person in the United States. Then we will hear directly from the current Census Bureau director, dr. Dillingham, i expect dr. Dillingham to give us an honest assessment of how the president s memo could impact the accuracy of the census and what the bureau is doing to address this risk. I thank all of our witnesses for participating today and i look forward to your testimony. I now recognize the distinguished Ranking Member, mr. Comer, for an Opening Statement. Chairman maloney, i appreciate you calling this hearing today on the 2020 census. Let me begin by saying unequivocally, the 2020 census is counting every resident in the United States, regardless of citizenship status. Any assertions to the contrary are scare tactics which have the consequence of reducing participation in the census. The census is underway now. I want to encourage every american to complete their census form, starting in august, census enumerators will be fanning out across the country to count nonresponding households. I encourage everyone to engage with the enumerator if they come to our door. If youre concerned about that, complete census now on mycensus or my 2020 census. Gov. I wish the hearing today were an oversignature hearing of the 2020 census because covid19 created a lot of operational challenges for the census. Unfortunately, this committee has conducted no oversight of these impacts. Once again, democrats are focusing their efforts on political issues, know the basic Good Government oversight this committee is charged with conducting. Last week, President Trump took a very important step to ensuring the sanctity of our nations elections and equal representation under the constitution. The president directed the secretary of commerce to report apportionment county for the house of representatives which excludes nonlegal residents in the United States, including Illegal Immigrants. All americans should care about who is being included in the apportionment count. Including Illegal Immigrants in the count for representation in congress only dilutes the representation of all americans who vote in elections and makes a mockery of our basic principle of one person, one vote. The president s action restores the concept of representational government envisioned by the constitution. In a country so closely divided as the United States, Illegal Immigrants and noncitizens have a material effect on representation. Representation should matter to everyone. Its a simple question of fairness. Predictbly, the democrats liberal Interest Groups have already filed lawsuits against the president , like the sound and fury surrounding the Citizenship Question shall the legal questions about the president s action are likely to wind up at the Supreme Court. This hearing today is a democrats first shot across the bow of chief Justice Roberts and the other Supreme Court justices. The intimidation of the Supreme Court begins today. I urge us all to focus on the task at hand, the completion of the 2020 census count now underway. With that, i yield back. Thank you. Now i would like to introduce our witnesses. Our first panel is composed of former census directors. We are grateful to have their expertise. Our first witness today is mr. Vincent baraba, who served as census director from 1973 to 1976 and again from 79 to 1981. Then we will hear from kenneth pruitt, who served as the census director from 1998 to 2001. Next we will hear and go to robert m groves, who served as the census director from 2009 to 2012. And finally, we will go to don h. Thompson who served as census director from 2013 to 2017. The witnesses will be muted so we can swear them in. Unmuted so we can swear them in. Witnesses, please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing, but the truth, so help you god . I do. I do. Let the record show that the witnesses answered in the affirmative. Thank you. Without objection your written statements will be made a part of the record. With that, you are now recognized for your testimony. Thank you. The time is here formulated in 1928 stated then a then designed situation is real, they are real in their consequence. In essence, surfaces the potential when situations by people is real, they are real in their consequences, with the current action is that by many approaches he has taken to assure that he achieves his real objective. That is to make sure less people will be counted in states with large minority populations, which President Trumps position he has taken. They will have their representation in congress and other legislative districts reduced as well. And they will receive fewer governmentalcations based on the census count, however, the incorrect perception of possible direct harm by filling out the form by noncitizens is not correct because it is against the law. Many Census Bureau employee any Census Survey information that identifies a individun ind communications the fbi and other Government Entities do not have the legal right to access this information. Violating the confidentiality of respondent is a federal crime with serious counts including a federal prison sentence up to five years, a fine up to 250,000 or both. In fact, when the protections have been challenged, title 13s confidentiality degree has been upheld in the courts. I will provide how the Census Bureau and other agents Work Together, late in that afternoon, four fbi agents arrived in colorado springs, armed with a search warrant, authorizing them to seize the census documents, including completed questionnaires in the course of their investigation and the alleged questionnaire immediately informed of the situation and contacted the director of the fbi. After a flurry of phone calls from employees in colorado we agreed to a mutually satisfactory that could be reached while that remained in the custody of the Census Bureau. Ultimately the documents were placed in a secure room protected by two locks with one key held by the fbi and the other by a local official. Under this arrangement only employees were allowed to enter the room. A fbi agent had to be present when the door was open. While the door was unlocked, an agent stationed outside the room could monitor the activity of the census personnel. The Census Bureau brought in experience bureau enumerators from outside the denver area to reintervi reinterview. The original questionnaires with those the Census Bureau officials prepared a report that described all discrepancies uncovered, but did not reveal any confidential information. Mrs. Chairwoman, i served as Census Bureau for president s of both political parties. In 1980 provided the secretary of commerce with the Census Bureau statement showing the population of the states and number of representatives to which each state is entitled which he then forwarded to the president. I was also proud of the fact that our Outreach Program to low income and minority population led to an estimated jump nearly 97 of our population. In 1980 census was also a clear demonstration of the nonpartisan manner the census should be conducted. It would be during the republican presidency and successfully implemented as designed and planned during the democrats presidency. It will be up to congress and the press to make sure that this information is being by the president that true motivation [inaudible]. The census belongs to the people not the president. An entire population of persons in the United States should participate willingly in the 2020 census and a moment to reaffirm our founders intent that everyone be counted. Thank you. Thank you so much for your testimony and your service. We will now hear from dr. John eastman, professor, professor of law and Community Service director. Center for constitutional jurisprudence, dale valor school of law and senior fellow claremont institute. Dr. Eastman. [inaudible] should we go to another one . We seem to have some technical problems. Were going to go to the next speaker after dr. Eastman and come back to him because there seems to be a problem with connecting with him. Thank you. We will now turn to dr. Pruitt. Mr. Pruitt, you are now recognized. Thank you very much, madam chairwoman. We know this discussion will include concern about the in putting the noncitizens, and or the illegals in the apportionment count. I just have three things to say about that. First, weve never done it. The census has never done it. Second, they cant do it by asking questions, youre not going to knock on the door and say are you, or are you not. Third, the administrative records of inadequate to do it. So, even if its a good idea, we dont yet know that we can do it, that the Census Bureau can do it and with that as my starting point, i want to go on and say some things about the larger census as the Ranking Member invited us to do. We all know that were about 62 with respect to response with respect to selfreporting. But that leaves, you know, more than a third of the population uncounted. And i have to really stress this point. Nonresponse followup, hard to count, very difficult census territory as we all know, and we are not in control. We as the Census Bureau, we as the congress, we as the white house. Covid is control whether the Census Bureau will be able to do this count successfully before the end of the year, which theyre now on that schedule. And we know about 15 of the American Population has already told us and told that they do not intend to cooperate with the census. So, id like to make two, three quick points. How do i define the census. The bureau will know as no other unit of government can if the numbers can reapportion federal funds for a decade. It knows that the census count is the denominator of every Vital Statistics we rely on, whether the number whether its the number of consumer products, whether its different rate of infection across the population subgroups on the pandemic and so forth. Every number that we use for 10 years is anchored to the quality of the census. Secondly, the bureau knows that these statistical facts can easily damage the flawed numbers that will be produced, that will inflict on society, will create serious damage for this society and its not pretty. 10 years of Homeless Veterans because we mislocate their sorry, mislocate their hospitals, 10 years of Tropical Storm Disaster Relief thats too little and too late because Traffic Congestion is underestimated, 10 years of poor planning for school districts, because they have flawed estimates of how many first graders will show up. 10 years in misled chamber of commerce because of predictions of population growth and characteristics are off base. We know that will be the consequences of a census that does not count as best it can. Quite separate from who is in the apportionment count, we have to start with a good census. The third thing i would say about this is the bureau will not want to inflict the damage that flawed numbers will produce. The Census Bureau is too honorable, faithful to its constitutional duty. And the enormous burden whether to release substandard results. I urge the congress to share the burden. I would ask the congress to please appoint using the National Academy of sciences or some other apolitical trusted institution of its choosing to about produce predetermined Quality Metrics that can assess if the final 2020 numbers reasonably match what the bureau knows they should be. And the burr bureau has very good estimates from the acs, and estimates how many people across the states all the way down to the census track levels. And so, if we could have this special group of experts to sort of create the metrics by which we will judge if we have an adequate census to do what its supposed to do and if not, what step should the country take . Take . Thank you. Were going to return to dr. Eastman if we have solved the difficulties of reaching him. Dr. Eastman. Lets try this again. Can you hear me now . Yes, we can. Very good. Thank you. Chairman maloney, Ranking Member and members of the committee thank you for inviting me to participate in this important hearing. I actually think President Trumps directive is not only good policy, but perfectly constitutional. And i want to address real quickly something mr. Pruitt said. I think theres a confusion here between the two purposes that we use the census for. One is for apportionment set out by article 1 section 2 of the constitution. The other exercising Congress Spending power or its commerce power is to do a whole myriad of other things like allocate federal resources, determine where were going to need schools and va hospitals, and what have you. President trumps order addresses the apportionment part of it, has nothing to do with the total count. I think the political theory underlying the reason we have an apportionment clause is extremely important. So let me begin with that. We get our political theory from the declaration of independence, it sets out universal principles, all men are created equal, that we are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights, but we apply the principles in a context. The declaration starts off talking about one people separating themselves from another. The theory of Representative Government is that it is based on the consent of the people could be governed. Not on the consent of people elsewhere, but the particular people setting up the government. Now thats principles, the consent of the governed, the Representative Government theory find themselves into the text. Constitution. Right from the very beginning, it says we the people of the United States. It doesnt say we the people of the world or we the people of any foreign nationals who happen to be present when we take a census. Its we the people of the United States. That language is mimicked then in the apportionment clause, article 1, section 2, clause 1. Representatives are chosen by the people. That same people referring back to the people of the United States, now the people in their several states and clause three, it stays the people again, and they are choose their representatives based on the total number of persons, that refers back to their representatives, refers back to the people in the several states. And proof of this is the clause excluding indians not taxed. That was a clause that was designed to recognize and to exempt from the census count those people who were in the states, but not part of our body poll politic, indians excluded from the taxes, for the reason theyre not citizens. The theory of the declaration codified, in order for representative strength and divide equally and fairly the representation among the several states based on their numbers of people who are citizens, who are part of the body politic. A good example. In the 198 olympics was held in 1980, we wouldnt have added two or three seats to california because there were two or three Million People visiting for the olympics. Theyre not counted because theyre not part of the body politic, theyre not in the theory of Representative Government. The Supreme Court has upheld this as well. Its recognized in reynolds versus sims, for example, equal protection one person one vote case, its the equal number of citizens. They refer repeatedly to the language of citizens, rather than total population. Now, for most of our history, there wasnt much difference. The disparity between citizens and noncitizens was roughly similar, one district to another. So we didnt have to get into this question, but we now live in a circumstance where there are vast differences state by state between the number of citizens compared to the total population and to continue to count total population for apportionment purposes is to give an undue weight to people, to states that have large numbers of noncitizens living within their borders. Thats fot consistent with the principles of Representative Government, its unfair to those states that continue to have only citizens, and its particularly unfair when the number of noncitizens includes large numbers of people who are not here legally at all. It creates a perverse incentive to encourage illegal immigration, to undermine the weight of votes of citizens elsewhere in the country. Thank you, madam chairman, i look forward to your questions. Next is mr. Groves and i understand that you have a hard stop at 11 00. You will be excused with our thanks and you may have questions for the record. Mr. Groves, you are now recognized. Thank you, chairwoman maloney and Ranking Member comer. Since 1790, each u. S. Census has sought for all residents in the country. Some of the first words in the u. S. Constitution seem to illuminate the intent of the Founding Fathers on this score. Before the mandate is laid out in article 1, section 2, the prior section, section 1 sets the qualifications in the members of house of representatives. No person shall be a representative who shall not have attained to the age of 25 years and been seven years a citizen of the United States and who shall not when elected be an inhabitant of that state in which he shall be chosen. So i note the explicit designation of citizenship for the members of the house. Next section, section 2, outlining, the word citizen is not used. Either in referring to the census or to the apportionment of the house of representatives. Instead, the phrase, whole persons is used. This goal complete enumeration of all people in the country have been the basis of all that census since conducted by Thomas Jefferson in 1790. Its in the basis of reapportionment decade after decade. Indeed its the only event we have in this country in which all persons participate. Im not a lawyer and thus will not comment on the legal basis of the memorandum. I will comment on the critical needs of the Census Bureau Going Forward with a high towards Quality Assurance and transparency. I have four points. One, the Census Bureau technical staff must be free to complete the 2020 census at the maximum level of quality possible within the unprecedented constraints of the pandemic. As you know, the technical staff and the Census Bureau has the delay and delivery of various products. This request flows from the delay and the duct of conduct of various data. And the lies of enumerators whose Public Service will make this successful, i applaud the technical staff of the bureau making this decision. The decision however forces a delay of delivery of 2020 products. I support this delay and urge congress to authorize it. Number two, all of us need to convey the message again, very clearly, that the 2020 census must enumerate all persons resident in the u. S. Regardless of the outcome of the administrations memorandum. The census has the goal of enumerating all persons in the United States. We must double down on this message that in the coming days. Number three, the Census Bureau should release all quality indicators of the measurement of citizens required on the july 11th, 2019 executive order. Rarely in the conduct of censuses throughout the world is the responsible agency asked to produce official estimates critical to the Society Without prior testing. The attempt to assemble from administrative record systems counts of citizens in small geographical areas is unprecedented in the history of the bureau with unprecedented efforts comes theble gags to inform the country of the strength and weaknesses of the product. I urge congress to assure that evaluations of the statistics be presented along with the estimates themselves. Number four, the credibility of the 2020 census can only be by the quality of the i urge the Census Bureau given the unique nature of this Data Collection to publish intermediate indicators of equality. Of the 2020 census and this would include process indicators, comparisons with Population Estimates with demographic analysis in popular form and initial field data from the first enumeratienumerad credibility requires transparency. The sooner the country can see multiple indicators of the 2020 census quality, the seener the use case for the census can be made n conclusion im pleased to submit this written testimony and look forward to testifying. Thank you, we will now conclude this panel with mr. Thompson. Mr. Thompson, youre now recogniz recognized. Good morning, chairwoman maloney, Ranking Member comer and members. Committee. Thank you for this opportunity to testify before your Committee Regarding the july 21st, 2020 memorandum for the secretary of commerce on excluding illegal aliens from the Apportionment Base following the 2020 census. I am extremely concerned that this action will adversely affect the quality and accuracy of the 2020 census. The remainder of my testimony will focus on five areas i believe are critical for your committee and the leadership at the department of commerce and the Census Bureau to consider. First, affects of the directive on the 2020 response for the hard to count populations. I believe that the memorandum has a high potential to reduce the likelihood of census participation for the harder to count populations, including noncitizens and immigrants. A significant component ever the Census Bureau plan to get a complete count of these populations, is sending out a message that the 2020 census is important to local communities and that respondent information is kept completely private and not shared with any outside entity, including law and immigration enforcement. I am very concerned that the release of this memorandum will increase the fears of many in the hard to county community, that their data will not be safe. The end result will most likely be increased nonparticipation and increased undercounts of these populations. Two, effects of not accepting the Census Bureau recommendation to extend the 2020 census deadlines. The Census Bureau, through the department of commerce has requested that congress extend the deadlines for providing apportionment counts and redistricting for four months. Its critical that the deadlines be extended. The effective conduct of the operation to enumerate those households that do not selfrespond, nonresponse followup or nrfu, is necessary to achieve a fair and accurate enumeration for all populations. I am concerned that not extending the deadlines will force the Census Bureau to make adjustments to the nrfu. These adjustments will most likely include reducing the number of nrfu visits and increasing the use of statistical methods into a greater percentage of Housing Units than in previous censuses. The consequence of actions such as this would tend to underrepresent the marred hard to count populations and overrepresent other populations. Three, the risk of introducing serious errors into the 2020 census apportionment counts before the quality and accuracy of the 2020 census is understood. For the 2020 census, little is known at this point regarding quality, accuracy, and most importantly, the number of undocumented persons that will actually be enumerated. I am very concerned that a much lower number of undocumented persons will be counted in the 2020 census relative to previous censuses, due to increased fear that their information will not be secure. At the same time, a significant portion of residents could be overcounted. It will take careful analysis to determine the properties of the 2020 census and determine how many, if any, undocumented residents. Therefore using the estimates of the undocumented population to reduce the 2020 census numbers would have unknown and possibly serious adverse effects on the accuracy of the resulting apportionment. Four, there must be transparency in how the estimates of the undocumented population are constructed. The 2020 census is a foundation of our democracy and there must be assurances that any actions that would affect the census are based on objective methodologies, a long held principle is openness and transparency. Five, the importance of not even giving the appearance of political interference with the tabulation of the 2020 census. Perceptions that could be the results much the 2020 census have been manipulated for political purposes will greatly erode public and stakeholder confidence not only in the 2020 census, but in our democracy. When i was directing the 2000 census as a career executive under the leadership of Census Bureau director dr. Kenneth pruitt, we went to Great Lengths to assure all stakeholders that data driven decisions were made and there was no consideration of politics in the conduct of the census. I would strongly urge the current Census Bureau and department of commerce Bureau Officials to follow these principles for the 2020 census. In conclusion, thank you for this opportunity and i look forward to answering any questions that you may have. The chair now recognizes herself for five minutes for questions. Id like first to thank all of you for joining us today. It is powerful to hear from four former census directors who have been appointed by president s of both parties. Collectively you have served richard nixon, gerald ford, jimmy carter, bill clinton, george w. Bush, barack obama and donald trump. On july 21st the president issued a memo directing the secretary of commerce to provide him with the information necessary to exclude undocumented immigrants from the census count for apportionment purposes. Many people have opined already that the president s memorandum is unlawful and unconstitutional. I have studied it closely and believe it violates the clear language of the constitution and existing federal laws, but i want to ask each of you the same question for a yes or no answer. If your opinion, and based on your knowledge and experience, does the president s july 21st memo, seeking to exclude undocumented immigrants from the Apportionment Base appear to violate existing federal law and historically enduring views of the constitution . Yes or no . Mr. Barabba . Yes. Dr. Eastman. No. Mr. Pruitt. Yes. Mr. Groves. Yes. Mr. Thompson. Yes. Second question, based on your knowledge and experience does the constitution require the census to count every person living in the United States at the time of the census, including undocumented immigrants . Mr. Barabba. Yes or no . Yes. Dr. Eastman. No. Mr. Pruitt. Yes. Mr. Groves. Yes. Mr. Thompson. Yes. A third question. Based on your knowledge and experience, do you agree that the federal law requires the president to send congress an apportionment count based on the census count of the total population of the u. S. , including undocumented immigrants, mr. Barabba. Yes or no. Yes. Dr. Eastman. No, no. Mr. Pruitt. Yes. Mr. Groves. Yes. Mr. Thompson. Yes. And lastly, and ask correct that all previous censuses and apportionment counts in the history of the United States have included both citizens and noncitizens, including undocumented immigrants . Mr. Barabba, yes or no . Yes. Dr. Eastman, yes or no . No. Mr. Pruitt. Yes. Mr. Groves. Yes. Mr. Thompson. Yes. Thank you. I think that all of these answers speak for themselves. The president may not pick and choose who is included in the census count or the Apportionment Base. The constitution, federal law and the historic practice of the Census Bureau dating back more than two centuries all require the census count and Apportionment Base to include every person in the United States regardless of their immigration status. I now yield to the distinguished Ranking Member for five minutes of questions. Dr. Eastman thank you for testifying today. Let me be crystal clear, i strongly support the president s order and i want to start with a few basic question. Whats the constitutional and legal justification for the president s apportionment decision briefly . Well, the constitution says to count all person in several states, that refers to the people of the several states, that refers to the people of the United States. As the indians nontax exclusion clause makes clear, it was designed to cover citizens. Those are the people that we are choosing representatives to represent. It doesnt include people who are here visiting and certainly not people who are here visiting unlawfully. So why is using total population not a good metric for apportionment count . For many of our nations much of our nations history total population was roughly approximate district by district to citizen population, thats no longer the case and the political theory and the text and reference to the people that is contained in the constitution suggest that we now take account of the fact that we have great disparities, district to district for apportionment purposes on the number of citizens versus the total population. Will you briefly explain one person, one vote . The idea of one person, one vet set out by the Supreme Court in reynolds versus sims is tied to the idea of representative gft. That we should each have an equal vote in who were going to choose an as our representative. Were not talking about other people in the world having a say in who we choose as our representative. Its one person and that means one citizen one vote because those are the people who are choosing who is going to represent them in this particular place, in this particular government. Its not a world government. Its a government of the people of the United States. So, for the issue at hand, can you explain how counting Illegal Immigrants for purposes of apportionment dilutes the political power of citizens and legal immigrants in states with fewer Illegal Immigrants . Take two states like california, 2. 5 million estimate Illegal Immigrants, thats roughly three or four additional congressional seats beyond what the citizen population would allow. And you are throughouti dilutins of citizens in other places that have not encouraged such illegal immigration into their states. If our Representative Government is going to be based on citizens, then diluting the vote of citizen to overweight the apportionment and seats, its not just seats in congress, its votes in the Electoral College for president as well. And this is not partisan. California and florida and texas would all lose seats if the president s order is upheld. Thats, you know, some on the democrat side and some on the republican side. This goes more to the basic notion of Representative Government and who it is, our elected representatives are supposed to be representing and its citizens here, its not people from elsewhere in the world. So doesnt counting Illegal Immigrants for purposes of apportionment distort the principle of one person, one vote . It most certainly does and dilutes the vote of legitimate citizen voters in states that have low numbers of Illegal Immigrants, or other foreign nationals present within their borders. My last question, how does the president s memorandum on apportionment restore equal representation in apportionment in the house of representatives . Well, it gets back to the Apportionment Base that i think our constitution envisions, certainly the theory of our declaration of independence envisioned. The people who are choosing our representatives, well apportion that by state and allot the congressionalal seats based on that. Not how many people we can cram into the state leading into the census to bolster up our numbers. Its citizens choosing representatives. Its citizens those representatives are representing, and therefore, the apportionment ought to be tied to citizenship. Dr. Eastman, youve done an excellent job explaining this issue that i think, an overwhelming majority of americans support. I appreciate your testimony and look forward to further questions. Madam chair, i yield the balance of my time. The chair now recognizes representative norton. Thank you, madam chair. This is an important hearing and i appreciate this hearing. Id like to approach this, my question from a constitutional basis as i practice constitutional law before i was elected to congress. The administrations attempt to exclude undocumented immigrants from the census count appears to me to be plainly unconstitutional. The language of the constitution is pretty clear, article 1, section 2 says the apportionment of representatives should be based on, quote, the actual enumeration of and here are the words the whole number of persons, persons, im underlining that. The 14th amendment says representatives shall be apportioned, again, im quoting, among the several states accord to go their respective numbers counting whole number, here again is that word, of persons in each state. Persons, i dont see citizens and i dont see any other words such as voters. So, you really dont need to have taught constitutional law like i did, or have a constitutional dictionary to go through what ive just gone through. The number of people in each state, every single person. Since most of you have been directors of the Census Bureau for the record, i would like your answer to the following. Does, in your understanding, does the term whole number of persons in each state include undocumented immigrants living in the United States . Mr. Barbarra. Yes. Mr. Pruitt. Yes. Mr. Groves. Yes. Mr. Thompson. Yes. Id like to ask each of you based on your experience, your actual experience, a related question. During your tenure as director of the Census Bureau did you have any doubt that the constitution requires a census count to include undocumented immigrants living in the United States . Mr. Barbarra. No i did not have any doubts. Mr. Pruitt. No. Mr. Groves. No doubts. Mr. Thompson. No doubts. Let me direct you, if the Trump Administration had any doubts they might go to the census own website. Here is at question from that website. The bureaus website entitled fighting 2020 census rumors. Setting the record straight. Question, are noncitizens counted in the census . Answer, yes, everyone counts. The 2020 census counts everyone living in the country, including noncitizens and i put this on the record because anything this hearing, conclusions we come to should be based on just such documented evidence. The administration might also have looked at a letter sent to congress from the Justice Department in 1989 when george h. W. Bush was president and attorney general bill barr was the head of the Departments Office of Legal Counsel. That letter affirms the departments, the Justice Department conclusion that both the enumeration clause and the 14th amendment quote require here im quoting them, inhabits of states who illegal action aliens to be included in the census. Mr. Thompson as the most recent census director on this panel, could you briefly explain why you believe it is important that the census include everyone, every living person in the United States and not just citizens or voters . Certainly. So the Census Bureau is charged with a very difficult task and that is counting everyone in the United States. The Census Bureau has no Enforcement Powers whatsoever. Theyre a statistical agency. So they wouldnt even have the ability to try to ascertain someones legal status or not legal status. Now, i might add that if they tried to do that, then they would produce counts that were seriously flawed. Thank you very much, thank you, madam chair. I yield back. The chair now recognize representative thank you very much, madam chairman. Dr. Eastman, in your testimony and opinion piece you wrote in june of last year you connected the Citizenship Question to the fundamental notion of our government, the consent of the governed. Representative is based on such consent and in the Fourth Amendment including indians not taxed because they were not part of the political body. You conclude that citizen zip is at the core of representation. However, in todays discussion were addressing whether we can allocate representation based on known presence of millions of individuals who are not citizens. Question to you, do you feel that President Trumps request for apportionment only residents legal residents in a state is the core founding tradition of the 14th amendment . I do. Not only is it in line with it, i think its compelled by it, the notion of consent of the governed that we apportion on who is going to be based on who is going to be here to be governed, not people here illegally or indians not taxed. I think the Supreme Court in wilkins is clear, the reason that clause is there, are not taxed are excluded from the count is because they are not citizens. Well, the indians not taxed right now are Illegal Immigrants or foreign nationals who are visiting this country, who are not part of our body politic, the same principle applies. It has a lot to do with application of our laws to the governed as well as trying to make sure that we are beholding to the country, would it not . It does. Look. The very notion of consent of the governed is that a particular people decide on the kind of government theyre going to have and who the representatives in that government are going to be to govern them in order to best secure inalienable rights that they have from nature and natures guide. Its not designed to give other people a voice. Why have we been concerned the last three years of russia in the election, if we think anybody can choose in our representatives. Choosing to govern ourselves and to apply laws to other people while theyre here, but theyre not the governing body and the political regime. You heard the discussion from the gentle woman from the district of columbia. You know, she says that specifically that citizens are not enumerated. Can you address that. Sure, so is says counting the whole number of persons, but it says their representatives, and the their reefers refers back to the several states, to the opening language of the constitution, we the people of the United States, allotted according to the people in the states and its those persons that were going to count. We have never in our history counted every single individual who happens to be within the state at the time of the census. Weve not counted visitors, weve not counted indians not taxed, weve not counted diplomates. The reason we dont count those people is theyre not part of the people formed in the United States that are people of the United States. You cant read that one word in isolation, as she did. Its part of the larger language of article 1 section 2 as well as the preamble and its part of the principles that are set out in the declaration of independence tied back to the notion of consent of the governed. Thank you. Finally, madam chairwoman, i would like to express my concern with the actions of this body over the past several years. Partisan leadership has forced this xhie to consider this simple question of having a person identify themselves as citizen on numerous times, however, we have only had a few hearings on the topic of issues like hard to count populations, an issue for my district and im sure districts of several other members of this committee. This misdirection has forced this committee to ask how we ask one question to nonamericans more so than we assure americans in hard to count populations can participate in the entire census even though the majority constantly states its count being every person. American taxes provides us to washington. And assuring our constituents get proper protections from the federal government. Maybe we ought to entertain if were going to give another stimulus, ask that they fulfill filling out their census, if you want today get everybodys vote, maybe thats a en en incentive we could go by. I yield back. The chair recognizes representative lynch. We now recognize representative cooper. Thank you so much, chairwoman maloney. And also, i would like to honor delegate norton. Your line of questioning has exposed the fact that for those not keeping score back home, that virtually every living director of the census supports your view that the president has taken a unilateral and outrageous version of the 14th amendment, which is probably unconstitutional. You would think that a country as old and as distinguished as america would be able to reputab reputably count its own citizens and established by the director, count its own citizens and undocumented in each district. There are countless questions surrounding the census and an issue were facing in my constitutional district is this. Specialists will have their contracts terminated in september and the census will continue until october 31. So, i would like to find out from the previous census directors what effect this could have on the accuracy of the count when Partnership Specialist are terminated a month early, a a month before the census has ended. I do not know the impact of the decision on enumerators themselves but it would seem that Partnership Specialist would not of been hired unless they add some value to the process. So i would like to hear from mr, mr. Barabba and mr. Thompson about the effect of this premature and early termination of census specialists on the accuracy of the count. Yesterday, i talked to the individual who was responsible for the area whichib i live. She was very concerned that she would be, her contract would be eliminated activity as pleaded. She has reached out to many, Many Organizations throughout the area, and keeping in contact with them is important to meet the absolute completion of the census, particularly in areas that we have in our district in our area like salinas and other areas which have significant minority populations. Let me just comment. If theres one piece of evidence that we have with great assurance, its that local Community Leaders that have the trust of Diverse Communities in their areas are key to the original response as well as the nonresponse followup stage. We know this from several decades of work, any interference in their performance will affect the quality and we should avoid it whenever possible. Is it going too far to say this is go head. We have a vast pro bono labor force out there trying to help us do this census. This was launched in the 2000 census ticket never existed before and its responsible for the fact that we have a self response of people who dont respond, it is attributable to that crowd of people, and there in the thousands, school teachers, union leaders, chambers of commerce leaders, in the thousands to help us do this census, and they think their job is to countir everyone. What can communities due to prevent the termination of these Partnership Specialists or to come if need be, supplement or substitute the work of these specialists in that crucial month of october . To make sure that period is extended as my former colleagues have all said really important component of getting a complete account is getting the message out on the local level the consensus is very important to your community and importantly this isnt a message they can collect from washington we started the programs with the 2000 and census and we saw a dramatic decrease of various hard to count populations. So for the month of october it is critical local communities and leaders why the census is important and completely confidential it doesnt share information with anyone. My time is expired. Congressman jordan now congresswoman fox. Thank you madam chair. Doctor, the interpretation of the 14th amendment is subject to judgment leading up to each census it has a detailed rule do you agree the standard for residency is subject to judgmen judgment . I do. We routinely alter that and included those longterm residents but not shortterm and those who are no longer residents but are a broad because of work with military service. And with those parameters. Do you believe its appropriate for residency criteria to change for illegal aliens . I do. Mr. Thompson when you were director you drafted the rules for the 2020 census. Is that correct . Yes it is congresswoman. Its fair to say the states of legal or illegal. Is that correct . Thats correct. Did you support changing the rules for military residency . I did. Let me understand Many Americans who reside overseas including military personnel are enumerated in the United States but not because they were not present april 1st 2020 so using your logic military personnel should be excluded. Correct . No maam. We looked at the previous census in the federal register for comment and based on a lot of input we made the decision we should count the overseas military in the United States. That is absolutely the way it should be in my opinion. But because we recognize these individuals normally is us residence but we are asked to serve a broad it will return when the Short Services over they are serving the country it is deluded by illegal aliens mr. Thompson another question for you is the 2020 census criteria change how Prison Inmates are counted. Is this correct . This is how they are counted in a month in most senses. Some people believe in the pre incarceration some people say you are diluting the representation so you believe that Prison Inmates thats how the essences enumerates their location . After i left Government Service i support their decision where they are incarcerated. You believe the failed representation of inmates why do you support others citizens constitutional representation from illegal aliens . Throughout my experience at the Census Bureau which includes 27 years as a political appointee i operate under the consensus everyone in the United States regardless of status. Now recognize the congresswoman one congressman. Can you hear me . Thank you madam chair for holding this timely hearing i would like to ask a question back in april you signed a public letter the request to delay the process. And you are quoted one of the articles that i read that the truth is the only thing in charge of the census right now not the bureau or the president that congress and the virus will be in charge until it is an. Is it correct to say the coronavirus presents an enormous challenge to the Census Bureau to conduct an accurate and timely count of the American People . It is a huge challenge and unprecedented. I assume you requested the delay to give the bureau time. The largest and most complex census ever conducted in this country. And then you add in the pandemic and people hunker down. I assume you all wrote that letter on the best interest of the country. On the Census Bureau to take a whole different approach the new memorandum will require the bureau to dedicate considerable resources a huge workaround in light of the memorandum is that a correct assumption . Yes. Yes. So you have the resources with the redeployment in a whole program put in as of last week to change their plans and yet they also posted that despite the huge demand of resources last week the Census Bureau says it is working toward this plan to complete the field Data Collection by october 31st 2020. Do you think it is feasible to dedicate all those resources and yet not have the accuracy of the census impacted . Right now it is at risk to be is an adequate with the chart one what that task is charged to do. Would like to take as much of the burden off of them as we can and so forth it turned out when they would not get that extension going into 2021 as we planned around that now suddenly there is a reversal on that decision that chances to have a census Accurate Enough to use it is very much unclear even if we have a census with the debate illegals are undocumented if we not even have a census and thats what im worried about. Madam chair my time is expired i yield back. I have a couple of reports about the transient nature of those who are here unauthorized and illegally. 40 percent of the people here illegally will be here for the next census. Given that the transient status of those former residents make it even more problematic to include noncitizens those are here illegally and temporarily. I agree and it applies to legal temporary immigrants as well on student visa. But they will not be here to participate in our government in any form or fashion. I would like to point out 60 percent of those unauthorized immigrants reside in 20 metro areas violating federal law to establish themselves including some who have committed felonies by the way they could cause harm to those that are not. Depending on the illegal immigrant population those that encourage illegal immigration stand to gain a lot of seats in the house of representatives said votes in the Electoral College to the detriment of other states. Doesnt that create an incentive for certain states and places to declare themselves sanctuary to get benefits for whatever crimes they might commit to increase the number of people in those areas to give them this advantage . Isnt that rational if you are already in contradiction with federal law . Not so much in a longterm but it does in the short term but alabama is likely to lose a seat in congress and electoral vote for president as a result of this kind of immigration should reside like in californi california. Speaking of fractional and to where it might need in the right to selfgovernment. And to make this point we dont allow foreign citizens in the United States to run for office do we . No we dont we dont allow people legally or illegally to make campaign contributions. Presumably we dont allow them to vote . Its illegal although we have evidence. Do we allow foreign citizens to run for office or to vote in elections . Yes or no. Should we allow them to vote in elections if they are here legally or illegally . Thats a great legal answer to agree with the law. Yes or no . Do you agree give me a quick answer yes or no. Absolutely. Why in the world do we think its legal to allow people who are here illegally or legally to be accounted for apportionment. It doesnt make sense. I dont think its consistent with the constitution either. I yield back. I would like to enter these documents into the official record. From the pew research center. I yield back. Representatives. And then to serve the country well thank you. And to be very happy with the decision of roger in the Supreme Court to rule was a citizen of the United States. And then to have millions of americans declared noncitizens. And shows you how powerful the numbers were. And those which by the way with the representation at the time. And with that innuendo. And then to use them conflate the numbers. And then to deny them the vote. They were ignorant they were not really americans. This kind of bigotry has no place carrying on with the senses. To get a feel how many people are at their at a given time residing in the United States of america. So with the purpose of understanding and all of the former directors can answer this as well in a selective process of not enumerating certain individuals. No sir. Mr. Thompson. Why do you think we need to have account of the people residing in the United States . On the fullblooded american citizens and nobody else. They are paying taxes. They pay property taxes if they live someplace and more than and that to have a difficult situation i dont think the other members have paid enough attention the Census Bureau does not know how to do it the president is asking them to do it was at the census. Is at the case that for example throughout American History and in the 19th century. Is an that the case . It is. So that over 200 years of practice in American History and in my view. The chair recognizes. Which expert remains available . I believe he had an appointment at 11 and had to leave. Let me ask you a question about the law if i recall correctly there is a case in which from 2001 the senate clarify there is a split in the ninth circuit versus the fourth and the fifth as to what the courts position would be on apportionment and what were talking about. Expound on that very briefly spent they went to a portion and the court upheld that and not strongly suggested to be compelled by the notion of Representative Government to say it doesnt require that technically. Representative connelly i know you are protected by the speech and debate clause that doesnt mean i cannot respond to that slanderous statement that you make i do not support that decision im a vigorous defender of the dissenting opinion it was a wrong decision africanamericans were treated as citizens and he was wrong i will not let you get away with slander just because you are protected by the speech and debate clause. I thought that was a response of my colleague to ask a question along those lines im glad you responded. It was not appropriate to direct that toward you. A very real question at a bare minimum we all agree there is a split in the jurisprudence whether or not apportionment should be accounted for in the way we are discussing and citizenship matters it must matter if we will be a nation of laws and have citizens running for office with a robust debate and discussion my colleagues on the other side of the aisle were fighting with every in one ounce of effort to try to ask a simple question and the vast majority of americans recognize that is an important question to ask. The question here for mr. Thompson. My understanding the way the census counts we have characteristic was status and a household size. What does this mean for the average listener . It means we make stuff up we have situations we have an address we cannot find the hous house. Or the house nearby. But then we find the house somebody is there but we cannot find them. So now theres five white peoples will just put five white people in this house. Or household size we dont know. We dont know if its one or two or three so we will just guess five or ten based on nextdoor. And then we go into characteristics. It is a reality of what the Census Bureau does to achieve numbers. That is what is going on now we have others and i would ask if you a jump then really quick is it not correct it is used in the court acknowledges for purposes of the application of the Voting Rights act . Thats correct would it not be appropriate for redistricting purposes . The same data for the Voting Rights act . Yes. Absolutely. Its taken every year. And you should use the acs with apportionment. I believe we could to coincide with the senses. In my in fact it doesnt have to make assumptions on data going house to house thats the way the Census Bureau does that . If they dont do anything. And it is a longstanding practice. We dont always get direct responses. So these are wellestablished ethical and statistical process to give a more complete senses than we would otherwise have. We now recognize congressman raskin. Madam chair thank you very much for calling this hearing. It is a super important hearing. With a very simple conclusion that the president s proposal with a radical break from the structure in the meaning of the constitution so basically every methodology supports that we have been doing it right for more than two centuries. There is no reason to overthrow that right now with a whole series of attacks on the election or the mailin ballots in the president threatens not to observe the final results if he doesnt like it with the anticipatory temper tantrum by the president. The couple of things that were floating out there. With voting and citizenship there seems to be a false equation it has been very clear obviously large categories those who are citizens and historically the vast majority couldnt as well as landowners and Property Owners. And conversely people who could vote were not citizens for the vast majority. Even today there are a lot of municipalities that allow people to vote but the way they existed to the 18th and 19h to the 20th century with gender qualifications property and wealth qualifications for votin voting. You are a Christian White male Property Owner and was a confusing concept anyway. And with these rigid of dateline ideas that are propounded right now. Having to do with Land Ownership and then to have immigrants coming in from other places that it turned around. And the admission of kansas and nebraska and other states because the Republican Party which is the great champion and before he became a citizen that was lincolns position other a position of the Republican Party. And with those anti slavery ideas. And to be a citizen of the confederacy. And indeed in corporations. And then in a corporation with stock in america. So i got curious about the whole question that was repeated by the witnesses. What is the situation today . Certainly their children your native americans and adults are not paying taxes are they counted. Yes they are. Thats interesting. Let me ask another question. If we adopt the president s proposal and see why they are pushing for the Citizenship Question as lawless and as a violation of those procedures. Since we dont know who is a citizen or not how do they make that work . In my judgment there is no way. Thats what worries me about this initiative. The administrative records for many years at the Census Bureau now with Georgetown University there is a good number of separating out the documented from the undocumented. You need to draw a clear line between the two categories that definition does not exist in the Census Bureau when article of science magazine. We are all anxious about this initiative not because of the arguments made but it will do with the census itself in 2020. If we dont come up closer to where we are coming then we are in trouble. Not only and rooted in the constitution but a danger. Thank you for your indulgence. Sorry. Thank you madam chair. I want to thank all our witnesses for being here today. Unfortunately i think its a waste of your time. We continue not doing our job of oversight then in this case specifically as it relates to the senses. This is the first time weve had a hearing about it. 120 days and we are just now getting around to it and a little earlier we may not even have a census this go around because of the pandemic and the responsibility of this committee to do proper oversight. It is just unacceptable in my colleagues and willing to show up for work as we have done in the Republican Party perhaps we could continue our oversight and think now we have an emergency even with this emergency hearing still not providing oversight with whats happening with the census is unthinkable to me and highly irresponsible and to get back to the order of what this committee is supposed to be involved with as it relates to right now. It is unreasonable or unconstitutional for us as a nation to have a number of citizens its just unthinkable to me and a radical break to note the number of citizens as well as noncitizens and the third way of thinking but nonetheless i appreciate the testimony you have given. I know this is already been covered but its worth reiterating is the president within his authority to direct a memorandum to the Census Bureau back. I believe he is. And within his authority that includes citizens and legal residents. Thats correct. Reiterate again why this is so important we have account of citizens not just illegals as well. The critical aspect is to know the citizens the importance of knowing the citizens with that distribution as they control the government. And those that set out in the declaration of independence. I see whats so complicated. Its illegal to be involved in the political process but now for all practical purposes we have a Political Party that is determined to give citizens of Foreign Countries the right to vote in our federal elections and be involved in impacting the federal elections which is deeply troubling. And should be seen as election interference with those who are illegally in this country to impact the voting power of the citizens quite frankly i look back to the same thing then as it is now to gain and strengthen political power for the Democratic Party and shrugs off common sense thank you again for your testimony today and i implore my colleagues on the other side. Now i would just like to respond to his attack. I read the president census memo carefully. It is plainly unconstitutional and comply with his memo would violate federal law. Thats what we call this important hearing. Excuse me i did not interrupt you. You do not have to take my word for it. And those serving republican and democratic president s and existing law. Congressman your recognize. And must be exhausting to be a republican when the president of the United States holds the press conference to sell Snake Oil Cure to the coronavirus. And must be extremely exhausting to come in here and defend the president of the United States when he takes unconstitutional actions such as he has done here. Candidly i feel sorry for you. When those that are afraid to speak their mind are the opinions that they hold are the truth that they know in their hearts and minds. From this president at all cost defending the indefensible. It seems the primary argument stated is that was pointed out half a dozen times in this hearing indians were not counted. The other stupidity and then according to the irs paid 9 billion of payroll taxes. And then to pay 12 billion a Social Security benefits more than they received. And according to Economic Policy undocumented immigrants pay 12 billion yet here we are. Here we sit today because of this memorandum of this president to tell us clearly whats most important to this president. Tens of thousands more will die in the coming months because of the utter lack of leadership by this president. The economic collapse of our country is unfolding before our eyes because the president is unwilling to do what it is necessary as the leader of the United States to ensure we take the actions we need to take tens of millions of americans are out of work struggling how to pay rent in the mortgage and medical bills in the millions that follow them what is important to them. But as an american we are better than this. I yield back. Thank you chairwoman Ranking Member. The right to vote is sacred as americans were blessed to live in a country that respects the timehonored tradition of one person one vote. Wars have been fought march is led. And then to disenfranchise american citizens to gain more power. Those that have allowed open immigrants to vote currently in california can register to vote online it is require you check a box that you are us citizen and provide a Social Security number or california drivers license. The l. A. Times reported over 1 million Illegal Immigrants had drivers license in california in 2018. They care about obtaining power at any cost even if they have to attack the foundation of the american citizenship in the right to vote. Now continuing the offensive by attacking the 2020 census they managed to politicize every step in the process and ignoring history and the rule of our citizenship has been included as recently as 2000. Is the inclusion is perfectly legal. Despite this the democrat shenanigans managed to get the question removed because it was too late the Citizenship Question with fairness and common sense. And the most fundamental of which is the right to choose our leaders. And with the apportionment how is that not foreign interference . To send a few thousand people and then they get an extra vote in congress and with the fundamental rights whom i trust my democratic colleagues whats the point of citizenship . Was the point of the illegal immigration system those of the apportionment process dilutes the vote of every single american citizen it creates an incentive to accept more illegal immigration and those that the apportionment process perversely incentivizes states to encourage more illegal immigration in violation of us law and the wellbeing of citizens to gain more congressional representation. Those here illegally should have to say to elect americas leaders. Make no mistake at the expense of the American People again. And those four apportionment in this committee today many Democrat Members have asked the answer is yes or no or yes yes. It is a biased sample they allowed us one witness and they provided three who share their opinion. Its unfair and biased and exactly what we get if we count Illegal Immigrants with apportionment it will misrepresent the votes of the states that abide by the laws. That is somehow reflective of the people of america three voices out of 330 million their opinion counts three out of 330 million. And to have an accurate count to throw a wrench in the process was statutory relief with the poison pill provisions. Democrats are more about power and the integrity of our election or the fundamental right of every american citizen. I yield. Thank you for your testimony and i want to point out the Census Bureau is not the Census Bureau is that asking people about their citizenship status on the 2020 census which the Trump Administration wanted it to do. They tried to do that but it was struck down by the Supreme Court of the United States of america so the Citizenship Question was removed. I now recognize Debbie Wasserman schultz from the great state of florida. Thank you, madam chair. Im going to present some convenient facts that really fly in the face of the ridiculous argument that was just made by the gentleman who previously, who previously spoke. And that is that in the section from census. Gov labeled the importance of apportionment, it reads mandates that an apportionment of representatives among the states must be carried out every ten years. Therefore, apportionment is the original legal purpose of the decennial census as attended by all nations founders. Apportionment is a process of putting afforded 35 memberships seats in the u. S. House of representatives among the 50 states based on the states population count that result from each decennial census. The result would be the first data published on the 2020 census and these results will determine the amount of Political Representation each state will have in congress for the next ten years. Not only does it not qualify what type of person or category of individual will be counted for apportionment, the Trump Administration own Census Bureau specifically leaves out any reference to categorizing the type of individual that we are counting and whether or not they will count towards apportionment. The Founding Fathers intended everyone, living in the United States, other than originally counting slaves, tragically as threefifths of a person, to be counted for the decennial census specifically for apportionment. Thats in the constitution. So whats going on here is that the u. S. Supreme court scuttled the administrations vacated plans to try to intimidate people who are not citizens from answering the census and thus being able to be counted and counted for apportionment purposes and instead are trying to backdoor the Citizenship Question by usingon an executive order to not count those who are not citizens in apportionment. Its that constitutional, its not legal and it is transparent in its really been in this political intent. My question is that we have a number of experts here and i want to go through through a cf key facts. This committees investigation shows the likely reason for the Citizenship Question was electoral politics. I would like to ask, do you agree the policies proposed by President Trumps memo last week to exclude undocumented immigrants are consistent with the real objectives for the proposed Citizenship Question . That was for mr. Barabba. Did you hear the question . I did not hear my name, im sorry. Thats okay. Would you repeat the question, please. If i could have a few additional seconds to make sure i dont lose my time. Do you agree the policies proposed by President Trumps memo last week to exclude undocumented immigrants from the apportionment account are consistentun with what the real objective was in [inaudible] i believe what he is trying to do is to have an effect on the outcome of the apportionment process. Are to be a little more spec . As i pointed out in my testimony [inaudible] willing more people to not vote for the president because of his positions. Mr. Prewitt, can you explain why fears in immigrant community about the census would the press Response Rates annually to a less accurate census count pgh yes because theyre afraid the answers will be used against him as it was unfortunately produced in the 1941 of the japaneseamerican, 60 years ago were still talking about that. It casts a very long shadow over the census, what were going to now will cast a very long shadow. If they are afraid it will be used against him as a group than they have a recent is sort of dodge it and not respond to it and hide out. Thank you. After the issuance of this recent memorandum, its harder to escape the conclusion of the top the mistake is attempted to medically this for political purposes. Is this behavior is normal is what effect you think this will have for the future of our democracy adventuring and accurate account in the decennial census . Question. It is incredibly important the census is viewed as a nonpolitical objective enterprise because of the cornerstones of their it is the foundation, one of the cornerstones of our democracy and the fact that it is politicized will have a long life span it difficult to take consensuses in the future. I yield back the balance of my time. Thank you. We represent recognize representative higgins by remote. He is online. Representative higgins. Madam chair, this type of antiamerican rhetoric im hearing from my colleagues is exactly why regular american patriots dont like politicians and dont trust the government. What are the democrats trying to hide you the number one thing, the major point that is incredibly clear, across america from sea to shining sea by hardworking american citizens Voting Rights in america and congressional representation in america belong to american citizens, period. Changed through the generations, the same happened, abortion every 10 years, this is a challenge that has evolved and changed over the course of time and what we face is the very clear fact that illegal residents of our country are illegal occupiers of our country and significantly affected representation. What are the democrats hiding . Illegals interfere with our republic when it comes to congressional apportionment and voting. Donald trumps new policy would restore congressional representation to its rightful owners the citizens of america. What are the democrats hiding . Why would we not want to know how many citizens versus noncitizens are in our country . I will tell you why. I hope you are paying attention. Estimates range from 12 million to 25 million illegal aliens in this country, 700,000 constituents for congressional districts, 1735 congressional districts that can be swayed by illegal aliens within our country. The 100 fifteenth congress, the republican majority, 47, 100 Sixteenth Congress the democrats hold a 34 vote majority. The reality is illegal aliens present in our country if counted for apportionment, actually do shift the balance of one man one vote away from density of the population of american citizens toward densities of population of Illegal Immigrants. My colleagues across the aisle dont want america to know that but i do. We speak the truth and i take offense to some of the language that has been used towards myself and my colleagues about you dont know our hearts, calling us minions and other things. You are wrong for that. America is watching. Mister eastman, your constitutional scholar, are you not . Mister eastman, please unmute yourself. Yes. My question is are you a constitutional scholar . Madam chair, i would like this time observed. Lets try again. Mister eastman, my question was are you a constitutional scholar . Please unmute yourself, sir. Yes, i am. Back on track, welcome to 21st technology that doesnt work for Remote Committee hearings. I urge my colleagues to return to regular order. Mister eastman, are you familiar with the president s new policy that we are discussing today . Can it or can it not be challenged in court as constitutional . Your audio is not functioning, sir. Try this. Is that there . That is better. I would like this time observed. Mister eastman, my question is very simple. Are you familiar with Donald Trumps policy regarding the census we are discussing today, can this policy be challenged constitutionally in court or can it not . It has already been challenged in four different cases. When it gets to the Supreme Court based on franklin versus massachusetts case, trumps policy will be upheld. In the interest of time, if Donald Trumps policy is overturned by the Supreme Court by judicial procedure it would encourage my colleagues to wrap their fashion up in a judicial challenge properly if the president s policy is overturned by the Supreme Court, that is it, isnt it . That is it. Congress would have a say with a clarifying amendment but they offer a policy already. Why Supreme Court rulings that have established by majority rule in the Supreme Court, Agency Action is final when an agency completes its decisionmaking process specifically in regards to the census and yet the president is not required to transmit the secretarys report directly to congress but uses data from the census in making his statements. Are you familiar with that ruling as written . Yes i am. That is franklin versus massachusetts case to which i have been referring. It certainly is. Thank you for your indulgence. We have some technical difficulties for the gentleman. I just want to clarify what is before us today is the balance of power of the representative republic of american citizens we are supposed to serve. If any of my colleagues are fellow americans across the country have a problem with the president s decision then by all means follow the constitutional process by which you challenge that to article 3 of the judicial process. Madam chair, i yield. I recognize congressman sarbanesoxley maryland. Thanks very much. Can you hear me . With we can. Appreciate the hearing. Fundamentally, you cant run a country if you dont know how many people are in your country and that is the purpose of the census plain and simple, it is not a Democratic Power grab. This is a patriotic exercise that we engage in every 10 years to know who is in our country. And and and to function,. And i want to know who is in my district was every district i representing, i need to know how many people there are. And how many resources for Community Health clinics. What is the capacity of hospitals that we need and other healthcare providers. That is the purpose of this. And we will not function as a country. This is not about political power grabs, and what our constitution calls upon every ten years. I dont want to belabor what the president does, it is very clear based on testimony, and easy reading of the constitution but the president proposed most recently, and i would like the former directors to give perspective on this delicate line, the census needs to be completed, and the further we get from april 1st the more potentially compromised, we dont want to rush the census, that would undermine accuracy. I fear the president is seeking to do that, trying to telescope the process here. Could you speak, and way into former directors. Please tell me what your grave concerns are right now about our ability to conduct the census in an efficient way to gather the data to be confident in it and how do we navigate this window to pull that off. And turn it back to the directors. I can start. The career people who are experts on the census requested a four month extension of the deadline in their title. They know what they are doing, what it is going to take to get the census done, not extending deadlines, which will put tremendous pressure on the Census Bureau. It is not clear what kind of Quality Counts they can produce if they dont get the extension. It could be a really big problem. I would add to that, in my opening testimony i do think right now we ought to be appointing an independent, Apolitical Group of statisticians and otherwise informed people and look at metrics. But we have a census that is inadequate for the purpose of reapportionment, inadequate for over 1 trillion and inadequate as a base number for our regular surveys for ten years. We are at risk of giving to the country a set of numbers that like you said at the beginning you want to know how many are coming to school, how many are in the hospital, what is the traffic load, what about emergency preparation . All of those depends on numbers and im very worried that we may not have those numbers at a level at which we are able to give them to the president at the end of this calendar year. The extra four months is really important. Thanks very much, appreciate the opportunity, what we are hearing is politics need to be cupped away from this. The president is trying to politicize it. We need to keep it in a safe zone and get this right and do it properly for the benefit of the country. I yield back. Can i make a comment please . Who is wanting to make a comment . I would just add as my colleagues have said, the manner the president is positioning the question on citizenship is designed to be alarming to that citizen, an approach that will make it difficult for the census to do its job to count every one in this country. Thank you. I recognize representative robin kelly. From remote, kelly. Thank you, madam chair. A couple points i want to make on oversight for 7 years and most of that time i was in the minority, i never remember the minority having more than one witness. I just wanted to make that point. To have the undocumented counts, it would help us without sanctuary cities, chicago is a thing to worry city and new york is a sanctuary city and we already know that illinois will lose one congressional seat, counting the undocumented is not helping us over another state, i want to ask if undocumented immigrants do not respond to the census because they are afraid of being identified or unmotivated because of this memo, and the distribution of federal funds, will it affect some communities more than others . If i am a nude doctor gross has left. I have been waiting. I will give you a quick response. 62 of the public, a highly variable number. Statebystate. That is a 20 difference. And states are counting 80 . That is not a functional census. Hugely disproportionate the way federal funds get spent. Somebody is 100 or somebody is 80, you get 20 more because it will be spent somewhere. The other thing, i think about one of the counties i represent, if someone is undocumented they need help before care, the county or the city, they dont just leave people to die to be homeless, they still feel that responsibility and it cost money. So that is why it is so important. Madam chair, i yield back early. Thank you, the gentle lady yields back. Representative grothman is recognized. Always enjoyable. There is some confusion. My first question is for doctor eastman. The memo doesnt include distribution of federal funds, only for the purposes of apportionment. Am i wrong on that . Absolutely correct. The Constitutional Authority among the two. This idea that we dont count people who are here illegally will result in the city of chicago. That is not accurate. And apportionment purposes, used for the census. I want to ask other people. People who were born there and lived there their whole life. Diplomat of the consulate in chicago driving around, see what is going on, tourists plan on leaving, people who spend 7 months of the year in florida and 5 months in wisconsin, and expects to return home. Comment on these different situations, none of these counter apportionment purposes and the diplomat. And visitors are not counted. We didnt have that category since citizenship was offered to native americans. A court of the nations history they werent counted. As the Supreme Court said what we are aiming for is who is represented, who is in charge, sovereign people choosing representatives and allocating seats in congress and electoral votes based on that. I am in wisconsin, to take care of her aging mother and expects to return home from iowa, no intention of staying in wisconsin. Should she be counted as a wisconsin resident. I dont believe she should be. They ask her normal place of abode. Im in this country illegally, how under any circumstances, what contortions would you reach to say that a person who is here illegally intends to stay permanently . If i was caught in the country illegally for whatever reason i would expect to return home. Isnt it insulting to somebody, to make the assumption they are there permanently . I think so. You can read it into the phrase in the state. The other argument is anybody residing in the state, they added the word residing, why not also at the word more consistent with the theory unlawfully residing there, that is more who is being represented, those who are here lawfully. If you have someone in wisconsin taking care of and aging relatives before they pass away they consider a permanent resident another place. A College Student in wisconsin for nine months and returned to iowa. If someone is overstaying a visa, plans on returning home, what type of legal logic to expect that tuesday in wisconsin permanently. The we will assume somebody comes here illegally to be considered a permanent resident. One theory floated called virtual representation, the citizenry of that state and community, people treat them the way they are being represented. Why dont we assume that . The theory on the other side to try to make sense of it. And consent of the governed, the cornerstone of the system of representative on behalf of legal citizens of my stated is insulting to the future that they dont have to obey the law, thank you. Congresswoman lawrence is recognized. I would like to bring the focus back to what the census is established to count every person. I was a mayor and the amount of people driving over my road go into the population, goes into the formula or come to the federal government, need x amount of bills, x amount of dollars, how many children are going to schools so we can anticipate the amount of brick and mortar or taxation or educating children in the community. It is so sad this current administration, every single angle to politicize it and have it be a democrat or republican issue. The census has nothing to do with your political affiliation, has everything to do with the numeration of the people who live in this country, so that we can appropriately allocate the funds to our country. I know in my district, there is a very rich and thank god amazing diverse city of people, strong representation from the middle east and bangladesh, other countries, africa and india. When you knock on the door of homes and say are you legal or not legal, absolute aggressive immigration demoralizing value of people in our country, it creates fear, whether you want to admit is or not. Mister thompson, are you here . Mister thompson is still here . Is it true that the immigrant communities historically have been undercounted and why this is problematic . That is an excellent question. The Census Bureau has always been measuring a differential undercount, the white hispanic population, over accounts and other populations, and hispanics, they have been measuring undercount and called it differential undercount. The applications of that filter through all the important uses of the census, including apportionment, redistricting and allocation of 1. 6 trillion in federal funds. And. When a community does not get the proper allocation of funds. Talking about poverty, talking about generational misrepresentation it is all tied to the census of how we count the citizens and the people of this country. Is that correct . Yes, maam. Do you agree that Donald Trumps executive order is likely to make the problem worse by discouraging legal immigrants from completing the census . I include it in my testimony, my concerns that the memorandum will increase fears among the populations that include immigrants, not citizens that their data would not be safe and therefore they are not participation. I want to be clear on the record the census is not a democrat or republican issue. But how we run our country. Isis on appropriations. I say very often if you want to know where a persons heart is in their values are, follow the money and if we systematically eliminating and discourage participation then our values will be very clear that if you are a minority, if youre an immigrant, you have no value, thank you, you back. Congresswoman miller now recognized. Ranking member comer and all you witnesses here today, as we will discuss further in the next panel, apportionment is drastically different than taking a census. It is essential the census count every person living in the United States as this data is used to appropriate federal resources to the communities in need. Another use for this data is to fulfill the constitutional duty of apportionment. Apportionment is the essential process Congress Takes to make sure members of congress are distributed fairly and proportionately across the United States. Allowing some states with a high number of undocumented immigrants to subvert the will of american citizens by denying other states their fair representation cannot be allowed. Many across the aisle actively championed illegal immigration and deny the governments duty to protect our sovereign border to turn around and try to distort the president s actions to protect american democracy into a constitutional crisis is an absolute farce. This is just a continuation of black of leadership that america is so tired of seeing out of washington. I support Donald Trumps memorandum of apportionment and reiterate the importance of making sure americans voices are heard in congress and at the ballot box. Doctor eastman, how did counting residents living illegally in the United States undermine the representation of legal american citizens . It would create an apportionment that shifts numbers of representatives in the house of representatives and the electoral votes for president from places where there are not larges numbers of Illegal Immigrants to places where there are, therefore diluting the vote and political power and sovereignty of the people in states that dont have large number of Illegal Immigrants and benefiting those have violated our law. How are smaller rural states that have very few members of congress negatively impacted by the larger states who are bolstering their census counts with undocumented immigrants . We have a number of states that will lose or not gain a seat in congress as a result of counting of a large number of Illegal Immigrants who consolidated and in particular states in 3 or 4 states. It would dbase the votes of american citizens in large portions of the country. Where half the population is comprised of undocumented immigrants, is that fair representation to a district that is comprised entirely of american citizens . Doesnt that dilute the representation citizens having congress. It does so in two ways. That enhances their political power. And and there are no Illegal Immigrants. Historically why has it been the standard to use total population for apportionment, and does this subvert the democratic will of American Voters . Historically we use total population because there was not a difference between total population and citizen population in total population was a very good proxy for the Political Representation. We have a vast disparity between citizen and noncitizen areas of the country, that is giving Political Authority of people choosing the representatives to govern. Thank you. I yield back my time. I recognize the vice chair of the committee, congressman gomez for five minutes. Thank you for coming. I am very happy that donald trump and the administration revealed its true colors. For a long time if you remember when we were trying to add the Citizenship Question to the census it was always about enforcing the Voting Rights act and they repeated it and repeated it but even the republican chair trey gowdy didnt even believe that was the case. He made the argument the logic didnt make sense because they have been enforcing the Voting Rights act since its existence without having that information on the census. We knew what this was about, it was about chris, the apportionment ever trying to create a scenario to make an argument about undocumented immigrants in apportionment. It just reveals true colors, the reason why it was always about that this administration and trump always attempted to use the census as a political weapon to marginalize communities throughout the country. I believe this is only the next step, the true direction of the organization, individuals on the right of the political spectrum is to undermine the fourteenth amendment itself, any person, all persons born or naturalized in the United States are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and are citizens of the United States that is ultimately where they want to go, people on the right, who are born here as battling citizens of the country. This is just the next step. And some of the recent rulings by the Supreme Court indicate this court is not Republican Court or Democratic Court but the Supreme Court of the United States of america and look forward for this case to go forward. The present memo violates the constitution, also violates federal statutes as enacted by congress. Title 13 states after the census is complete, the secretary of commerce shall send the president , quote, a tabulation of total population by state which the president must transmit to congress a statement showing the whole number of persons, doesnt say anything else, persons in each state. I would like to go down the line and ask each of you a question. Did you ever understand federal law to allow the secretary of commerce to exclude undocumented immigrants from the census account. He or she is required to send to the president , mister barabba . Mister prewitt . Now. Mister thompson . Now. Those are some simple questions when it comes to this issue that it has never been allowed and no one has ever requested it but this administration is trying to once again use the census for political ends and undocumented communities undermine our democracy. We have a choice to make, the country is getting more diverse, no matter what we do the country is changing. We shouldnt allow those changes to determine our character. How we do that determines the character and values of the country. I am proud to be an american and a lot of people here are also proud to be in this country and we will fight for our place in this country every step of the way until the day we are no longer on this earth. Thank you, but chair recognizes congressman keller. Thank you, Ranking Member comer. The president issued a memorandum directing the part of commerce to provide them with apportionment count we know in apportionment count, census count and different things. I am concerned the title of this hearing in this one group. Creating the assumption that these terms are all the same thing makes the accusation the president s actions are unconstitutional which they are not. Doctor eastman, can you explain how in apportionment count is different from redistricting. The census count total count addressed to things like federal spending and how many schools and how much space we need on the highway or pursuant to congresss power to the Commerce Clause and spending clause and get a total count, doesnt matter what you hear and apportionment is supposed to be tied, and apportionment count of persons in the state, that is different from the total population count that would include visitors, people in temporary visas and those other things, the president s memo is directed to the apportionment count. What numbers of persons are we going to use for distributing our political power in this country based on the population of citizens, we the people. This committee has conducted investigations, issuing subpoenas, all due to an issue for Citizenship Question and this was eventually abandoned. A Citizenship Question should not be controversial and neither should using apportionment count of those who reside in our country legally. If someone is here illegally they should not be represented in the United States congress. Doctor eastman, why did the Supreme Court rule the Citizenship Question being asked on the census questionnaire is in fact constitutional . We asked that question on almost every census in our history. The only reason it was bought from the current census is the Supreme Court found the department had not gone through the requirements of administrative procedures act, asking about citizenship, perfectly constitutional. There has been a lot of discussion on why we need to make sure the representation is correct. Some people on the left wants to do away with the Electoral College. By counting people who are not us citizens here legally is that a way to make the Electoral College less relevant or overtime irrelevant by shifting representation away from american citizens . It does. It has the same effect of diluting the votes of citizens that the apportionment of the house of representatives has because the Electoral College votes are based on total number of seats one has in the house of representatives plus the two senators. If i couldnt get an amendment through, couldnt get a National Popular vote and wanted to do away with the Electoral College i would want to count people for representation purposes who are in our country illegally . What offer the impact citizens have on the outcome of elections and that undermines the notion of the consent of the governed. The point i want to make, the way the Trump Administration wants to make sure we know the difference when we are talking apportionment and census and redistricting, we want to make sure selected by american citizens, is that correct . If you look at the numbers, texas will lose seats as a result of this as well as california, hard to say that is a partisan outcome. It is a Good Governance outcome. An outcome that means we are exceptional because we are americans and we should have government that is decided by american citizens and not people who are foreign nationals in our country illegally. Thank you, i yield back. I thank all of the panelists for their testimony and remind them there will be additional questions that come to them and i will be grateful for their swift response. We will go to the second panel, i want to respond to mister hices requests, and stated we had not enough hearings on the census. I would like to place in the record since i have been chair there have been five hearings on the census including one on the hard to count communities of the 2020 census which is january 9th, 2020. We are privileged to have director Stephen Dillingham on february 12th and appreciate him coming back and beyond the Citizenship Question, repairing the damage at preparing to count for we the people in 2020 and also on getting the importance of the census for both states and local communities and on march 14th commerce secretary wilbur ross. I would like to place on the record these hearings we had and i mention on hard to count communities, as mister hice mentioned we would like to accommodate having another and place in the record the listing of 12 full Committee Hearings we had on different subjects but obviously five with the full committee and subcommittees has been a priority as it should be for this country. I would like to play since in the record. The first panel is dismissed with our great thanks, thank you for your time, thank you for your service, thank you for coming back to testify from across the country. We are very grateful. Thank you. We are also grateful that we are joined by mister Stephen Dillingham, director of the Census Bureau. Thank you for your time, your service and for agreeing to be here. We are very appreciative. If the witnesses would please rise and raise your right hand, do you swear or affirm the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god. Thank you. Let the record show the witness answered in the affirmative. We thank you without objection your written statement will be made part of the record and with that, mister dillingham, you are recognized for your testimony. Thank you for your service. I just want to add the coronavirus has changed everything, how we have been able to conduct the census and i appreciate your service during this difficult time. Thank you for being here. Chairwoman and Ranking Member, i had my own specially designed mask and i provided one to you and the Ranking Member. I hope you will find it useful for getting the message out. Chairwoman maloney, Ranking Member comer and members of the committee, im honored to be with you. I congratulate Ranking Member comer on his recent appointment. I appreciate the commitment to a successful 2020 census was the nonpartisan bureau is one of the leading statistical agency. Its career and noncareer staff worked together to advance its mission, always in accordance with governing laws and rulings, and does it control the use of its data, the Census Bureau adheres to the highest standards of scientific integrity and transparency and the principles and practices of federal statistical agencies. Meeting challenges posed by the unprecedented brutal pandemic remains a top priority. The Census Bureaus dedicated workforce has worked hard to keep the 2020 census on track. This morning im pleased to highlight some recent developments. On july 21st the president issued a president ial memorandum that has been the topic of the first panel. In response to the memorandum secretary ross, the Census Bureau to commence efforts to develop methodologies for producing a special tabulation for apportionment. A group of expert career staff will examine possible methodology. Operations are not affected by the memorandum. We remain committed to counting every person, in the right place, and only once. To help the Census Bureau meet challenges posed by the pandemic the White House Office of management and budget to been in a request to supplement hiring, pay incentives, outreach and replenish our contingency funding to provide the necessary flexibility. Despite the pandemic the 2020 census response has been intimate success. We are at almost 63 with 92 million households counted. About 80 have chosen to respond using the internet. Our response system has not had a single minute of downtime since we first invited people to respond online beginning in march. We successfully set up sent up, we say up to 5 mailings because if you do answer self response you are not receiving hopefully after appear go of time not receiving additional mailings but we successfully send five mailings and an additional mailing to people with post office boxes. Our 6 mailing has been done and should reach 43 million responding households. In december we will be sending a seventh mailing including questionnaires to the lowest responding track and hard to count areas which are update lead, and operation to handle packets to Housing Units while it is generally complete certainly 99. The last i looked i think it was 99. 9 , basically complete except for some small communities. Our counting of College Students continues to progress. We have a special operation to ensure complete and accurate count of College Students. College students must be counted where they live or stay most of the time as of april 1st. Congress is considering legislation which was passed by the house to alleviate confusion among College Administrators was the largest component of our Field Operation is underway and expanding rapidly. We have begun a soft launch in selected areas where we could do so safely and effectively. The first six area census offices began work on july 16th, six more began on july 20 third. Tomorrow, 35 others will begin work in 45 more will start on august 6th. They will be announced today. The remainder will begin this work on august 11th and will be covering the entire nation. Today we are announcing as part of our nonresponse followup operation we will contact some households by phone. Health and safety of Census Bureau staff in the public remains our priority. The provision of personal protective equipment, training and adherence to social distancing reflect our commitment to health and safety of the public and our employees. We require all census employees interacting with the public to wear a face mask regardless of location. We Daily Monitor Health conditions nationally and that the state and local levels. Our hiring of census takers and staff continues. We have 3 million applicants available as temporary census workers. We continue receiving 1500 new applicants each day. Our 248 area census offices are completing the hiring process for halfmillion temporary census workers. More than 900,000 job offers have been accepted. Our partnerships are unprecedented exceeding our most Ambitious Goals with almost 400,000 partners we are expanding our outreach to hard to count populations. Despite having to delay the mobile questionnaire assistance efforts due to the Pandemic Partnership staff have identified assistant sites where people go when they leave home such as grocery stores, pharmacies and other places in compliance with local, state, federal safety guidelines. Weve seen examples in new york city, i know you have participated in kentucky and all member districts. The 2020 Census Communications Campaign Continues to expand its reach. We increase the Communications Contract budget from 500 million to 700 million and increased our media which are in progress now. We will run many types of advertising in low Response Rate areas including those with hard to count audiences. As voices in your communities, thank you for sharing our message that participating in the 2020 census is easy, safe and important. We appreciate your strong support for 2020 census in our operations. Are committed employees and volunteers remain on mission and accomplishing to me this result was our office has led other federal agencies in reopening in a rapid, phased and safe manner. I could not be prouder of our talented career and temporary workforce soon to become the nations largest which we are grateful that almost every house and office is accessed as a congressional partner. We look forward to our continued Work Together and thank each of you for your support. We are reminding everyone that the 2020 census belongs to our nation at large and will help a Better Future for all who live here. I look forward to your questions. Thank you. The chair recognizes herself for questions and i appreciate your testimony that the census belongs to the people and is part of our future. I want to report that in new york the census has been nonpartisan, professional, they responded to every request, we would they have been in the community boards, block associations, they work weekends handing out information in the parks and responded to every request the office has made in getting the word out to the public in a nonpartisan professional way. I want to thank you for that. I want to thank you that i had some particular is with regard to your efforts in Food Distribution areas of new york city and appreciate you and your colleagues. It is very important but i must tell you, director dillingham, i am very concerned about the president s memo and i have read the president s memo very carefully and i believe it is blatantly unconstitutional and complying with this memo would violate federal law and i strongly urge you not to violate federal law. But you dont have to take my word for it. We had quite a lengthy hearing today and all four of your professional nonpartisan predecessors testified from the Previous Panel that they believe the president s memo appears to violate the constitution and existing law so i would like to ask you do you agree with your predecessors that the memo appears to violate the constitution and existing federal law. I was able to catch parts of that hearing, perhaps the latter parts. I was amazed what a healthy discussion and debate and very livid one at times with regard to policy and history as well as law. They are in a different position than i am in. I respect him greatly and we have many things in common, certainly the completeness and accuracy of the 2020 census. We have other things in common and that is the respect for the bureau, Census Bureau as well as the principles that govern it, the relevance, credibility, integrity, independence, etc. We have much in common but i am not in a position where i can express my opinions with regard to the policy for the history and certainly not the legal analysis which is the subject of medication. As i did last year, i had to beg off. I cannot answer or give my personal views because my job as Census Bureau director will be to execute the 2020 census, so we have to wait and see how the legal debate comes out and we will do our job and that is our focus and our mission right now is a complete and accurate count that will include everyone living in this country. In your job executing the 2020 census, did you or anyone else in your knowledge from the Census Bureau contribute to the president s july 21st memo or provide input on it before it was released . I certainly did not and i am not aware of others in the Census Bureau that did. I understand there are roughly five political appointees. Did any of them participate in this memo . Madam chairwoman, we have six now out of 6000 employees but to my knowledge they did not and i would not have reason to think so. As you pointed out we have two new ones. I cant speak for actions that occurred prior to joining the Census Bureau. Lets move on to the nuts and bolts of the memo. It appears the president is asking for information that would allow him to exclude undocumented immigrants from the Apportionment Base. As we all know the Census Bureau will not be asking people about the citizenship status on the 2020 census, the Trump Administration tried there, the Supreme Court stuck it down. My question, director dillingham, how will the Census Bureau and department of commerce speed determining the number of undocumented immigrants in each state . I can tell you as you refer the president ial memorandum has some specifics in it and prior to that we did have an executive order last year that also directed us to look at our administrative data. The Census Bureau has a long history of collecting administrative data that is very valuable in many different ways. This particular residential memorandum, it resulted in the secretary of commerce giving us the directive and guidance to proceed with the requirements of the president ial memorandum and it calls upon us to look at our administrative data, any data we have and trying to determine number which is a statistic on undocumented persons. The country. And for the use of applying it to the apportionment account. So we have experts at the Census Bureau that are now beginning the process of looking at methodologies, and weve collected data from many agencies, the federal agencies. Many of the memorandum were already in existence many of the memoranda were already in existence but some additional federal agencies to see what we can gain from that administrative data and what the methodology might be in developing account of undocumented persons. That process is just beginning. The president ial memorandum just came out last week. Dr. Dillingham, your testimony says the bureau, and i quote, has began to examine and report on methodologies, in the quote. To let the president exclude undocumented immigrants. So my question is, what steps has the bureau taken, and will you shareak any reports with ths Oversight Committee that hasit jurisdiction for the census and its operation . Madam chair, as you are aware we are a very transparent organization. Maybe the precision of that statementpa was maybe a little t misleading at this time. We had convened a group. The group was selected by our career deputy at the Census Bureau, and they have been tasked with this. Thered been no reports, no draft reports, but they have previous experience in this area. So they are generally unaware of methodologies that have been considered to be applied to administrative data. For them this is a new tasking to look at, but they are just beginning of their work. Thank you. And i think its obvious that the president is going to try to use some external information that does not come from the census count to exclude undocumented immigrants. So my question, director dillingham, is isnt it true that the bureau cannot provide the president with actual responses from every person in the u. S. Confirming their immigration status . Well, we are to look at the administrative data that we have which we have been collecting, and to determine to what extent it might identify and how it would identify another data could be matched et cetera. We just recently, theres stil some data that hasnt been finalized but we have received most of theis data from the othr federal agencies and where receiving data as will pursuant to the executive order last year from some state agencies. So the process is again its underway. Thered been no reports. There had been no analysis that i have seen and they are moving rapidly as possible to look at the data, look at the methodologies and really to find options to see how that would be done. Thank you. Dr. Dillingham, if the Census Bureau and the Commerce Department are going to be relying on external data that they have cobbled together to estimate the number of undocumented immigrants, and they believe that the clearly would be violating the constitution which requires and i quote, optional enumeration, end quote. So unconcerned about that and you testified in february before this committee and i quote, we must Work Together to foster public trust, and i agree. And it seemsms to me that following the words of federal law in 230 use of precedents are essential parts of that public trust, and we owe it to our children and to future generations to pass an objective nonpartisan and fair census. And i hope we can Work Together to reassure the public that the government will follow the constitution. And i yielded to you for your comments and then to my distinguished Ranking Member for his questions. Madam chair, you are exactly right that everyone am regardless of how they feel about the development of a new option with the apportionment data, everyone is committed and a president ial member and provides we will count everyone. We will develop a number of the total count and we want it as i could and as complete as possible. The issue as you describe is one, is there going to be a new calculation for purposes of apportionment . Thank you for being here today thank you for being here i think youre right three hours ago i apologize you are not on the first panel. It is unprecedented and somewhat disrespectful the head of such an important Government Agency would be put on the second panel but nevertheless had a great attitude we appreciate you being here with forward to some good questions. Let me begin by saying the online response has been remarkable now they are practicing social distancing and using ppe. The census will now turn in a accurate count it is the right thing to do we cannot allow individuals unlawfully president on present to dilute the vote the citizens and lawful immigrants who waited their turn to come to this country to engage in our democracy most americans share that opinion. With respect to the census it is more complex than a simple headcount. Looking at a tourist visa if they overstay their visa and they dont leave are they considered a resident . We have a historically developed set of criteria for the residency and as you describe this simple tourist who is not usually residing with a are found, we would not want to count any response from those individuals. That should be explained on the form that is the keywording. So for purposes of apportionment if the person who stayed longer than 60 days over i am under the impression that is the Legal Definition of a United States resident , this person who overstayed their vis visa, they are not lawfully present and its fair to say they wouldnt deserve to have representation in congress. Correct . We apply the criteria of usual residency. But that is the criteria we use to deliver a complete and accurate count. Back to the earlier questio question, what database does the memorandum use to determine who is included in the apportionment part . That does not specify that in the executive order last year as specified a number of agencies. I have the listing here but i believe it 16 or 17 agreements in place. Some are already in place before that happened but a wide variety of federal agencies and in addition the executive order asks us to begin collecting state data where possible there are many uses. Some of the data use includes matching to make sure you have the right individuals so you dont duplicate. We have 16 or 17 agreements in place where the data has come to the Census Bureau. And then we have state data available. Will be looking at that data carefully. Its not new and some nations do census based on administrative data and one of the things under the executive order was pressed to think about the next census some people actually disagree on this question that are interested on the utility as the chairwoman pointed out the accuracy of the administrative data because it could have many benefits in the future. You are confident we can get an accurate count of legal citizens for the purpose of apportionment . I am confident we will analyze the data that we have to look at the methodologies for that purpose. I am confident you can get the accurate count and the majority of americans ask on expect that what america sees now from my colleagues on the other side of the aisle that continues to spend the deficit spending they see mayors and certain cities of the United States subjected to vandalism and violence and they expect to be represented fairly and accurately in the United States house of representatives. Nobody questions the importance of the census one of the things my colleagues on the other side of the aisle tried to imply falsely that citizens would not be counted the census will count everyone. Correct . That is correct. The president s memorandum states and what the Census Bureau will implement is the fact that lawabiding citizens, legal citizens of the United States should not be at a disadvantage with respect to congressional apportionment. The memoranda of is constitutional and the right thing to do. If anyone out here are questions how this will impact funding, it will not to. We are counting everyone. The memorandum is clearly focused on congressional apportionment. We are talking about as many as 24 seats in the u. S. House. It is a significant number of representatives in the United States house of representatives. I appreciate what you are doing. In my district we feel this is the right thing to do. The majority of americans feel its the right thing to do and we look forward to hearing for the reports on the implementation. Youre doing a great job getting people counted. We look forward to the data used to determine the correct apportionment as we go forward. Madam chair, i yield back. The terminologies here varies but again the president ial memorandum is focused on the undocumented differentiating on citizenship. And with the importance of counting and with the delivery of services. Thank you for joining us today. I would return the compliment you have been outspoken the unabashed is champion and thank you for your leadership we had several discussions one was in new york city before the covid crisis took over. A few simple questions is the word citizen in the constitutio constitution . Thank you and all you are doing for the 2020 census i understand you also wear a hat. So as i explained to the chairwoman earlier it was a very dynamic display of democracy. With history and policy and legal analysis. Understand several lawsuits have been filed so i have to not give any legal analysis or opinion myself because my job is to administer the 2020 census. My own little insight is that when they wanted to use the word citizen article three section two to establish diversity and federal courts. They could see was citizen from another state but here the founder said the actual renumeration of free persons. With the president s interpretation what is a radical departure from everything we have done for more than two centuries. It has nothing to do with the operation we are counting everyone. But for more than two centuries it has counted all persons. The administrations attempt to impose the Citizenship Question that he helped to construct himself. And then to remain agnostic. I have an obligation thats a prudent thing to do. Has the text of the constitution changed in the last two years . Not that im aware of. How long have you been with the senses . Just over a year and a half. Noncitizens have always been counted. It is my understanding the president ial memorandum is requesting for a change in the tabulation. Talking about covid19, are we taking care if i were people sufficiently are you training your census count takers and all precautions . We are trying to. I think we are we are being vigilant and continuing to do assessments certainly with the data from the cdc the local government data. We actually have a Fusion Center we purchased protective equipment we have plans for obtaining more were everyone wears their mask yes we are doing everything we went to make sure those practices not only in the training but to monitor. We are doing an excellent job. The reason i ask is i heard from the field enumerator in training he was planning to quit because of covid19 and i told my staff that despite despite your express commitment they are not getting any real training how to minimize covid exposure in their work they are given the pure l that not how to conduct themselves. It would be great if you could get back to us with what your plan is to fully educate to make sure this is something we are on top of. They could be super spreaders of not following the right precaution. A lot of the training is virtual and when we have half a million employees but doing what we can and will continue to enhance. Do you have rules for the road . And i have the training curriculum with me. Just to get this out there. And also that the public knows that. Absolutely. As i mentioned in the Opening Statement we are in the early stages of launching renumeration now. On august 11 we will be enumerating nationally. It is a very dynamic environment so we are learning as we go to make sure everyone is protected. You can become a model. Congressman. Can you hear me . Yes you are recognized. You heard of fear maunder on peer mongering and the response that will fall behind those essentials. Could you elaborate with the fear being spread slightly ahead at that point of time . As we pointed out that Internet Option we implemented this year with the technologies were in place. And to some extent a little surprised how people prefer the Internet Option. And those that are coming in through the internet mr. Have the telephone option that is picking up a little but just to ask questions to do the Internet Option. Of course they can do the traditional paper options so those with self responses expanding the mailings and outreach activities to make a difference. Can you hear me . Yes. You can proceed me one you can proceed. They integrity of the back of system to handle the online response like what we have been seeing today. It has been tremendously successful. You need to mute one of your devices. And you will have tremendous success. They do not want to reach hard to count does anybody in the Trump Administration ever suggest to count everyone . The latter part of that question is absolutely accurate. All through the Census Bureau was season professionals to make sure we have everyone. Did release you . Now we will proceed and we will come back when he comes back. Thank you chairman. When we last testified on february 12th i asked you about the administrations failures with those individuals that are identified. And then to be pretty overwhelmed with the information bezanson part of the committee on appropriations to ensure with commerce and justice and science the Census Bureau with that 2020 questionnaire. And with race categories to identify. And. And with regard to congres congress, and indicated we are certainly very interested in looking at that topic and we are very much beginning the process. I hear you. You just ignored it. And also with the categories. I will support that one of the improvements that was done and i understand they wanted more than a and b will look into it. And then also put in their Sexual Orientation and gender identity. Will you commit on record to examine that question of Sexual Orientation . That is a topic that has been examined and continues to be. We have questions and some of our surveys that in fact get to the heart of those questions. There is a need that those of that type that we would certainly study that. Calling leaders to tell them with redistricting data. [inaudible] we have passed the point with current legislative requirement. Do you agree with the assessmen assessment . Can you repeat the latter part of your question . If we are past the point do you agree with mr. Olson . To do continuous assessments. We have many more assessments ahead of us. And those on the ground with the direct contact with the people in the residence i thank you should listen to them. I always listen to them. And they are a very important. To allow the Trump Administration we just need to make sure is not just reapportionment but the health care services. Director dillingham, for the record, and you can speak slowly so that all my colleagues understand it, but does the census intended count everyone . It certainly does. So for the record we are counting everyone. Were where counting everyono lives in this country and the usual residence, that is correct. I thank the gentleman and i think thats the proper approach for the Census Bureau. Added dont think we should make it about anythingg else but counting people who are in the country. Now let me ask you this. We have the issue of undocumented People Living here. As i raised this point earlier in the first panel, a substantial number of those are transitory individuals who, about 1820 of whom will not be here for the next census. One of the issues i wanted to ask you about is how does the Census Bureau counts undocumented immigrants are people who live in that transitory situation where they are only here for a few years and then theyer are gone . Do you do with that at all . Congressman, if someone is living here for a few years, in all likelihood they will be counted if they are usually residing here. That doesnt mean they have legal status. One of the reasons the president , i assume, who directed us to look at the administrative data, are for issue similar to that. What is the status of some of the people that are usually residing in the country and is at an undocumented status or is it in the illegal status . Thats one of the things for the president ial memoranda. Let me be clear. When theres someone here who is only going o to be here and say another year or two, they will be counted in this census even though because you dont know when they are leaving. They will be counted. Thats correct. I want to ask another question i dont come back to that, but do you include shortterm visitors, i mean, people here who are on student visas, who might be a here getting a masters or maybe even four years for an undergraduate degree. Those people counted . Usually a year makes aed big difference. If they are usually residing here, april 1 their residing here and its the usual resident we count them. That raises and i think reinforces the point that are trying to make earlier about we should count everybody, but we shouldnt get everybody for apportionment. Because you just testified that you count people who are here on student visas for the census. But i dont think, well, i will say that i dont think anybody would reasonably argue that those people should be counted for apportionment because i think there are a number of people that are here now would say they should be, but i think that raises this, very serious issue for people who wont even be here may be for the next election, but it would be accounted for apportionment and it would have a profound impact on representation in congress for a number of states, and i raised this point as well in the Previous Panel, about states that are declared themselves sanctuaries. There are 20 metro areas, 60 of the unauthorized immigrants live in 60 cities, i mean, in 20 metro areas that have declared themselves sanctuaries which creates this i think an incredible incentive for people to come there because theyre going to be protected from law enforcement, even those who committed felonies. I do appreciate the fact, for the record, york county everybody. I just think that, i feel like i do think a lot of my colleagues agree that we shouldnt be counting people who were here temporarily or unlawfully for apportionment purposes. I thank the gentleman and i yield back. Thank you. The gentleman yield back. The chair now recognizes Debbie Wasserman schultz. Thank you, madam chair. He said, and i quote, whether illegal aliens are included depending on the resolution of that, the data you appear before the Committee Just days later and when asked directly if you could confirm the Data Collected under the 2019 executive order would be used in account and you responded with me get back to you on that. Two exclude. I was only formally a whereupon issued in the president ial memorandum it was a press story a couple of years earlier. Reclaiming my time, when did you first become aware anyone else in the administration was planning to exclude undocumented immigrants . I heard there was a story in the press and local peace. Perhaps the capitol hill newspaper or if i recall someone reported a story that such a directive may be coming down and as i recall it seemed like it was late on a friday night was waiting to learn more and then a few days later the directive was issued. You learned about the president s executive order to exclude undocumented immigrants in a newspaper article . The formal decision when this was posted on the web. So you had no discussion prior to the notification or seeing a newspaper article you had no discussions prior to seeing the newspaper story we didnt hear anything about this before the deal is clearly unconstitutional and has a federal officer im sure it took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution. Do you not have the obligation to know how it would be used to . How do you reconcile the memorandum of your Office Statistics indicate that we have no control over who it chooses. Its used according to the constitution. Im aware of that proportion, yes. The data that they were collecting. How do you reconcile the memorandum or are you just a data receptacle . Like any agency, we produce the most comprehensive complete and accurate data possible and we have received this request in the president ial memorandum this order isnt compliant. Thank you and i will you affect the balance of my time. To followup on som follow up oe questions the gentleman from alabama has. If im in the military and im from wisconsin and stationed a variety of places that are in this country but stationed in germany and korea i may pay taxes in wisconsin even though im not there, where should they be for the purpose of the census or should they not be calmed at all . We have special provision and theres a special criteria. The leadership has been implementing for a pure code of years for the place of deployment or the legal precedence. We can get back with exact criteria. Is that statutory or is that just the rule . I will get back to do if theryou ifthere is a statutory t it is our criteria. We have a practice if somebody lives in wisconsin that goes to school in ohio, returns every summer break given how much people go to school nowadays it might be half the time spent both places, and that person i think therefore should file taxes in wisconsin but you are saying they should be considered a resident of ohio. The enumeration criteria doesnt match the tax requirements and what we do with College Students is where they usually reside in the look of april 1 so basically to simplify me generally count fulltime College Students where they are residing in if they ar and if ta College Campus outside of the state, that is where we counted them so the university of wisconsin you will have a lot of students from ohio that would be counted there. Its to capture the count for that capacity. Said they are on spring bre break. April 1 particularly is in the pandemic. With regards to diplomats in an apartment in virginia for six months you count a person for the census. Its based on the usual residence. I think there are some exceptions of people actually living in an embassy that we do count people as they usually reside. If a student comes here from france and then leaves for three months and comes here for three and a. That might be a tough question. It means where they physically are. I talked to people while ago in the last panel and i gave an example in which someone from iowa pays tax in th in iowa thee to wisconsin because mom is in home hospice and they want to take care of their mom. They are intended to return to iowa. At what point for the purpose of the census is that for something to bperson goingto be counted in instead of iowa . Its probably going to be that they claim they usually reside if it is hard to determine [inaudible] please mute your devices. You will get extra time. Im sorry. In that situation at what point does a person say im counted in iowa and stood of wisconsin. There will be an individual factual circumstance. I might add generally when people particularly students move to Madison Wisconsin generally the sort of tradeoff if they come from another state they are not counted where they are paying taxes and vice versa obviously so many people in the country i could be one 16th. That is correct. It was interesting and i would like to add to it americans living abroad assigned american citizens but working abroad or maybe vacationing abroad. Where are they counted parks if they are not usually residing in the u. S. One reason has been researching prior case law as i understand it. At the same time we have people from those countries that may be living here with the same circumstance so we only count those residing in the country. For whatever purpose that they dont count them. Thank you, madam chair. I wanted to talk to you about the time line that they were working under the. In my understanding correctly at the Field Operations indias dynamics that you have referred to. We did have a shift in schedule because of this pandemic. In late march we had to call a halt to the operations of governance into the businesses we basically have to suspend the obligations and at a point in time we had to start to begin our assessment process. When do we think with the Current College we can restart the process and has you are well aware nationally with the president s task force they begin to play out criteria and guidance for what we call reopening and resuming the obligations and we are opening or 248 offices all across the nation. We have to do that safely and also enumerates safely. Was there a request by the administration . I think i think he came to congress to push back by two or three months the tabulations related to the apportionment and the process. Congressman, my understanding is that were discussions but that wasnt at my level and so that is my understanding that there been some discussions and consideration of that and has also been reported in the news. But thats a something i personally and then is also true that very recently the administration appears to have reversed direction on that and is now suggesting that they want the census to be wrapped up quickly so that that tabulation that i just referred to could actually happen before the endio of the year . Are you aware of that . Im not aware of all the many reasons, except to say that the Census Bureau and others really want us to proceed as rapidly as possible and to get this, give a complete and accurate count as soon as possible. Do you worry about the census being compromised if theres pressure to finish it to quickly . And what would that date be, and you might . I dont have a date. How much time do you need to give us the assurance that the census can be conducted in a way that yields the robust result . Mr. Barabba we certainly want a complete and accurate census congressman. That will sorely be a consideration as to whenl we consider the job is done. Well i mean my anxiety here is that the administration originally seemed to be reasonably accommodating the pressure of the pandemic on your efforts by requesting some extension of time with respect to how the results are tabulated for certain purposes. That was in line with your own judgment that you need to push the Field Operations back by two or three months. That was consistent. But now we are hearing that they are looking for money to push the process forward. And my concern would be a very immature way and actually undercut your ability to get this done properly. So you are sort of being whipsawed right now between these two different impulses, and i am alarmed at that and i think it could undermine the census. So we are going to keep a very close eye onre this and try to protect the independence of this process from the sort of politics that are leaning in on you right now. And with that i will yield back. I want to thank the gentleman for racing that important point. The census professionals have told me that they need at least ten weeks to do a professional account, and they are starting on august 11 and theres been some rumors of trying to complete it by december 31. The professionals ive talked to in the Census Bureau say thats impossible, that they need to haveve full ten weeks to get the expected knock on the doors at least six times to get an accurate count, and were supporting really the suggestion and request to extend the time forth the census. There are others who say that for political reasons the president wants to read this earlier so that he can make determinations about what information is sent to the states, and i think that is clearly unconstitutional and wrong. Ii want to thank you, mr. Sarbanes, for helping me out earlier and becoming the chair. Thank you for your work and for your questions. I now recognize congressman higgins. Thank you, madam chair. Dr. Dillingham, are you present today voluntarily or by subpoena . Im sorry, i will have to ask you to repeat that question. He asked if you were here voluntarily orr by subpoena. No, im here voluntarily. I can repeat my question, madam chair, thank you. Are you here voluntarily or by subpoena . I am here voluntarily. Voluntarily, that is correct. I think its important that america recognizes that you are voluntary appearing at a hearing that is titled counting every person, safeguarding to 2020 census against the Trump Administrations unconstitutional attacks. Are you a gentleman of integrity and good faith . Certainly i strive to be. I think i am. I had the distinction of being confirmed by the u. S. Senate unanimously on two occasions. The first time in 1990 by the kennedy that wasd was shared by then senator biden and then most recently by senator ron johnson. I have served six administrations so i have considerable experience, and i think theyde determined that i t the qualifications by statute as well as their criteria for being unbiased, objective, and professional. Thank you for your service and that codification, you are agenda distinguished accomplishment and we very much appreciate your participation in the effort to secure an accurate and very thorough census. You are, this Administration Structure for u. S. Censushe bureau, the u. S. Department of commerce, is that correct . That is correct. You are the main guy representing the quoteunquote Trump Administration as you said before this panel, this committee today . Congressman, i will say that my statute, my selection was to be nonpartisan and agencies nonpartisan, and it pretty independent statistical agency. As it should be. Would you represent the administrations best efforts to secure and accurate status, is that correct . Absolutely. You intend to do just that . You stated, you quoted the president directed which stayed in part to provide information permitted to the present to the extent practical to exercise the president s discretion and carry out policy at the exclusion of illegal aliens on the Apportionment Base to the extent peaceful end to the maximum extent of the president s discretion under thet law, and thats the quote from the president s directive. Statement . I do. The obligations will continue as planned in the context of the president ial memorandum it doesnt impact. It does not impact, it really is a request for special tabulation for purposes which is apart from getting a complete and accurate count of People Living in our nation. Exactly. I very much appreciate you before the committee today in service of our nation, doing your very best to lead a large team of dedicated americans to determine a precise count for our senses. Your appearance before the committee today, despite the fact that it was a premeditated effort to identify President Trump administration and the senses efforts, i am encouraged about the subpoena. My question to you, you stated in your written testimony that the Census Bureau is working to complete Data Collection and as soon as possible and strives to comply with the laws statutory deadlines. You are right, thats what we are trying to do. The final question was, we are proceeding in that direction if that answers your question. I am a little bit, i have a hearing problem, i did volunteer for a year of service in iraq and sometimes its challenging here. Thank you for appearing before today. I yield. Thank you and we now recognize congressman welsh. Thank you very much. Thank you for appearing voluntarily. A couple of things. An observation, i know you spent cant speak about the administrations position on many of these issues. Youve got to just do the job the best you can. I know the irony that the administration potentially is that undocumented democrats are not persons. In that respect, that analysis shares the finding of the u. S. Supreme court, the most decision of the Supreme Court in our history, africanamericans were not persons so i think im just saying that because i think you should understand why we are appalled ministration position. What i like to ask you about specifically is the challenge of getting accurate count in rural areas, not quite as rural in our Response Rate is i think 47th in person and 40th on the internet. We have challenges with access to broadband in many parts of our state. We also have Migrant Workers who are helping us in our sector and i understand your Census Bureau center for economic studies rejected a 2. 3 drop in self responses and 8 drop in responses and household noncitizens including legal citizens. Question to start is tonc have e sense of self Response Rate leg in rural areas . And how are you going to address that . Congressman, we track areas all across the country and we do it by census tracts and anyone in the country can go to our website and they can see how their jurisdiction and community is doing with self Response Rates. I dont have the figures here before me but we are well aware in some Rural Communities you have special challenges and we have special procedures that we do. I discussed earlier about our update leave and we also have various ways we are increased mailings we are doing and low response areas and we have a variety of things we will be in listing in the weeks ahead and beginning august 11, we should be in all communities and i hope we have already madee progressn most of the Rural Communities but we will do everything we can according to our best abilities and are informed by the knowledge of the past and previous census data. Cannot interrupt . What are some of the things . Its hard to who are skeptical and suspicious, the government and coming from the Census Bureau perceived by many to be government personnel so what are specific things lecturing, particularly in the migrant community. One of the most important things, we have our Communications Campaign and we have very targeted Communications Even on local radio in whatever communications those communities that will resonate with them and they will get the information. In addition, we have Partnership Specialists usually selected from those areas that have knowledge of those areas. We are importantly using our partners with 400,000 organizations, the largest ever, the organizations literally reach into every community in this country. I will say during the pandemic i only have a few moments. We are unsuccessful in getting a full count, how does that adversely affect communities or state like vermont . If you have an undercount, the census data is data at least indirectly in the country so is used for the allocation of resources, federal, state and local, planning and research and decisionmaking so and its used at the private sector so its very useful and in the message we send, it helps shape your future in the 2020 senses so we are trying to communicate that message and our partnerships are doing a lot in the effort and we will have a half Million People for what we havent received responses knocking on the doors but we have more than that in our partnership. Thank you. We now recognize congressman r roy. Thank you. Appreciate it. Sm the first panel, dialing in for the second one but appreciate your presence and service to our country. I have a couple of questions, i asked your predecessors earlier, i just want to understand correctly. My understanding and leaping off his questions, when you dont get a response, go to the house and dont find it, but there are systems in place in the Census Bureau for better or worse, debating the efficacy where you have where you go through imputation whether it status count imputation for you cant find it for the house or occupancy education where you find a house but you cant find the person or household we dont know how many people were there and the numbers or what you find in one house in the neighborhood to the house you dont find the individuals you dont find. If theres a second category where your computing characteristics of the people in the neighborhood, say they are five white folk in this house, we will say there are five white folks in this house by imputation. In my roughly right or a short yes or no, if i is there something you carry out for in significant numbers of people your quote counting . I have to qualify my answer to that, we do use imputation process when weve exhausted all efforts in the individuals counted at the residence. There is a process, the numbers are low and we hope they remain extremely low there are times when we have reason to leave someone is living in a household but we are unable to communicate with them when we do have an imputation accepted method accepted by the court. Im sorry to interrupt, we have limited time. We have a of how many we are talking about here . Hundreds of thousands, millions or counting the uncountable . Of the phrase used in the community and so forth, whatun e we talking about here . I can get youum more precise numbers but we are not talking millions, we are talking about those where we have exhausted our efforts and we have reason to believe People Living in the household in those instances, there is imputation option. I would appreciate a response about how many numbers and itcharacteristic imputations, various methods you use. Another question, am i correct that doctor john is overseeing the districting . Im not sure if he has direct management of that but hes over our research and methodology, he contributes to the process. Did he testify against the efforts by the administration to count or ask theat question of citizenship on the census last year when it was in litigation . I am aware he was a witness, yes. He testified against that question . I have not reviewed his testimony but i think it was considered by many to be that it raised questions. Okay. I just think its worth noting if hes got intimate involvement in overseeing redistricting, testifying against inclusion of the question which is an administrative decision, i think theres some question as to how this process is being carried out. I dont know how much time i have left, probably not a lot. Id appreciate your response to this question generally but i do appreciate you being here. Thank you, congressman. Thank you. I now recognize the vice chair of the committee. Congressman gomez. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you for being here with us. One thing is clear, the Census Bureau does not allow continues count through october and has time to produce the data as you requested, a significant undercount for the population of the u. S. Im going to ask you a few questions, its my understanding language to requesting for 40 million in funding, not granting your request to extend for the data, did you see the language before it was sent . No, i did not but i am aware, we put in a request for 1 billion and i got approximately half of that in the senate bill, i guess. Good to know. You didnt see it so therefore you did not approve it, correct . We you describe what it is i am aware that we were requesting additional funds as part of the appropriations process. Your request also extending for the data and they sent it without including that which so youre saying you never saw the language before it was sent. Let me last question. Have you discussed there have been discussions about the schedule and our ability to continually assess, they are aware of that topic. We did not see the language before it was sent. We discussed what leader mcconnell as for the extension . Have i discussed with who . Leader mitch mcconnell. I have not discussed with house or senate leadership, anything specific about the. Other officials pulling back that date . Like not granting the extension to in person through october and to ask for requests for a fourmonth extension for the data to congress by april 2021 . I can certainly say that discussions weve made assessments along the way they havesc discussed with the house and senate staff we briefed on a weekly basis and im sure probably, im not privy to those discussions but im sure the topic of extension time and shift and schedule were mediscussed. The new schedule. We make assessments and certainly our career officials are involved in those recommendations, we listen to our career people as to where we are. Are you still sticking to the bureaus request to constitute for extension through april 2021 operations total required to push the house of representatives . To be clear, someone asked me earlier, in my aware discussions have been held between the administration and congress . I am. I reclaim my time. The original request, the bureaus which you are in charge of, your request to Congress Extends the data to april 2021. Congressman, all requests over the management budget. I proclaim my time. You still extend by that extension request you made, the bureau made . We have, for planning purposes, made assessments and continue to do so. I will confer, yes or no . It seems like theres an idea for control for the Census Bureau and the political appointees of this administration off. Your name will go down in history if this is the census conducted by the u. S. Governme government. Not going to run away and say this was only because of the Trump Administration later on. You will be responsible, your name will be associated with it. So we are going to keep pushing until we have accountability and a complete and accurate count of every person in the United States. That is our mission and let me say i am not involved directly with the hill negotiations on revising the schedule. Thank you for the question and passion and now i recognize congresswoman miller. Thank you. I want to personally thank you for what you are undertaking to do, for the effort to complete the census this year inmi the midst of the pandemic. I wish you all the best of luck and Congress Stands ready to support you in any way we can. Any essential information or mandate once this is completed. My district is a representation of how difficult the census can be to compete. Four of my 18 counties in my district have one 100 of their population living in hard to count neighborhoods. I spent last year making sure io visited each one of these counties and i can tell you from firsthandnd experience how rurl my community in West Virginia is. This has only been exacerbated by the coronavirus and the pandemic but in a way, it helps us because we were very slow to get the pandemic and had it to the proportion that has gone on in the country. It is critical that we count our constituents and once we have the counter, that we are apportioning congressional seats to each of the states clearly. As an american citizen, the representation you have the federal government should always be fair and accurate. Counting People Living in the u. S. Illegally and apportionment is an attack on our Democratic Institutions and seeks to take away the voice of the American People. Aw i strongly support President Trumps actions to protect the sanctity of our constitutionally mandated apportionment. In protecting the voice and representation of the American People in congress. As the first 2020 census counting of all thee people in the u. S. Regardless of legal residency status, yes or no . I dont want to get into the details of people that may be not establishing residency may be temporary, is another discussion with the congressman but your question goes to the heart also of the lastt questio, we are absolutely dedicated to a complete and accurate count of the people residing in the u. S. And i do think we are poised, we were poised not to have one of the worst but the very best census ever and that remains our goal. We have not only embraced all sorts of innovations, all sorts of technologies but our goal is to have the very best count possible, a complete and accurate count of everyone. Thank you. Does the apportionment process play any role in how the census is conducted or is congressional apportionment onlyw tabulated once the census countly has been concluded . Do the complete census count of everyone and we are looking particularly at other data sources to determine whether we can identify a group the president has recommended to subtract, its a tabulation. So we will have a complete and accurate count but we will also work to determine the data and methodologies that might supply the Additional Information an agency the data producing Agency Policy agency. Thats how you will be able to limit thehe apportionment, correct . That is the way we are proceeding. I give back my time congressman lynch is recognized. Thank you. Can you hear me . Yes, we can. Okay, thank you. Back in june, i represent, along with congress presley in the boston area. Weve got hundreds of thousands of students that normally attend school within my district and miss presleys district as well. So its traditionally one of the more difficult cities to count. I think probably because of the influx of students. You sent a letter in june to the College President s and asking for cooperation in the rules, the list of students attending and as of april 2020. Id like to get an update on how that is going, i am concerned because we were experiencing right now, and undercount in the process. Ive been working with our fantastic secretary of state, bill galvin, he does a great job on this but we got running behind our historic count levels compared to previous census operations. Im just wondering how we are making out on the student assessment in terms ofud trackig and allowing students to work remotely so they may not be in their intended location, some of the schools have closed down. Theyre not even in the same city. How are we dealing with that . Thats an excellent question. I thought i might have facts and figures with me, i cant put my hands on them but we are making progress but as i said in my Opening Statement, we want to do that as accurately, as officially and as soon as possible so even though we are making progress, theres still some confusion among the colleges and universities because there are special provisions for protecting student information. There is a grouping of colleges or some colleges and i understand, i think you have the most colleges for the geographical area and thehe country and we want to get that information, at least in roster form and it will save millions of dollars, we can get accurately and proficiently, particularly students and off campus, the house passed a bill with a provision in it and ill bring that to your attention but we are making progress. I seem to recall maybe 50 of the colleges, but i will check the record on that. Will all the colleges and we will, the concern is that perhaps we wouldnt protect the information, we protect theco da better than anyone in the country that i am aware of. We understand colleges to a lot but i think we protect it as well, if not better and we have credible law on our side and we have safeguards to the information. We wanted and we like to get it efficiently. If i could just ask, we cant solve everything on this call but if i could get the commitment that my colleagues from massachusetts delegation registered in, weve got to get colleges and universities and if we could talk with your office to get an assessment on that because they are short. Absolutely. Thank you so much. I yield back the balance of my time. Thank you very much. I know recognized congresswoman porter. Thank you very much. Is the Census Bureau using the administrative records to conduct the 2020 censusec operation . We do use administrative data for some of our purposes of trying to discover whether theres duplication in the management of the census. I cant tell you exactly which data set. To work. Is the Census Bureau using the records t or using the records o determine the citizenship status of individuals . We do have administrative records that will be used for us to look at the numbers of citizens and noncitizens, that is correct. Okay. Under the privacy act, there should be a system of records notice, it explains what the administrative records will be used for. Have you published an assistant of records notice . It is my understanding we have complied with regulatory needs but i will double check. We can get back to you on specifics. Do you know if it explains what theai records will be used for as required by the office of management and budget . Are you talking about administrative records, are we sharing the information with the Office Administration and budget . Have to have the permission to do that. Does that statement you gave, does it say anything, doesnt disclose to the American Public you will be using administrative records. The executive order is transparent and points that out, its the agencies providing da data. You have an obligation to comply with the privacy act and file the system of record notice and its for the office of management and budget. I am asking you, do those statements, that you are for, advise the American Public is required and congress that the administrative record will be used to determine citizenship status . I will double check on that but it would be my understandi understanding, certainly. I have it in front of me. Without objection. The answer is no, they dont make any mention will use administrative records for citizenship. If you do use these records, federal and administrative efforts, you should have submitted or requested the office of management and budget. You should have submitted the statement explaining exactly how the federal records would be used. The notices are very clear, they indicate how, by whom and what purpose the information is to be used. The president s executive order doesnt relieve you of the requirement to be transparent. You commit to filing a new system of record notice that advises the administrative record will be used to determine citizenship status . Im not sure i understood the last part of your question, what i be assured that i do . N will you please commit to following the law we will. In regards to the privacy act and finally, a new system of record notice, a new statement of purpose to the omb. If i am correct, that your existence will mention of using the administrative records for the purpose of determining citizenship. I will certainly ask our Legal Counsel to look in the records notice to see if we are in compliance. Thank you very much. My last question, will you count every person, regardless of the decision . Because thats rates required by the constitution . As i have said, we are going to count everyone living in this nation. To the constitution says representatives shall be apportioned to one of several states according to their effective numbers, which shall be determined by adding asp numr of them. What do you think it means in the context . That was a topic of the first panel here and as i said in my opening remarks, discussing the policies in history, particularly legal analysis, it isnt one of the it wouldnt be prudent for me as the director of the Census Bureau, we have to get the work done and im not going to engage in, im not prepared to engage in legal analysis, the policy debate. We are producing statistical taproducts if they are legal, we will produced them and it will be the best available data we have. I appreciate that but you cant talk about your constitutional duty and then badge questions about the constitution the same hearing but i appreciate your following up on the record notice privacy act and illll follow up with yu directly about that. I yield back. Thank you so much. Thank you for the questions and before i recognize myself, Ranking Member for closing remembers remarks, i want some clarity on one thing, i asked you earlier if you would send this committee the results of the bureaus analysis under the president s demo and you responded the bureau would be transparent, so can i take that as a yes that you will share the results of the bureaus analysis . It is the policy and practice of the bureau to share with the world any final decisions we make on that but in the discussions of it, i can say as the decisions are made, they will be transparent for everyo everyone, particularly the users of the dataad. I now recognize Ranking Member for his closing remarks. Thank you chairman, i appreciate you calling this hearing today. I want to reiterate what i said at the beginning of this hearing, this morning by saying everyone should complete their census form and engage with census and numerators if they come to your door. Very important everything on american is counted. Support the president s action last week to exclude Illegal Immigrants from the apportionment count. As do the majority of americans. Including Illegal Immigrants in the count for representation in congress only dilutes the representation of all americans who vote in elections and make a mockery of our basic principle of one person, one vote. I want to make points to correct the record about some things weve heard today. Democrats have made very misleading or incorrect statements that i would like to take this opportunity to correct. First, we heard from the request of the president memorandum means Illegal Immigrants are not counted for purposes of the 2020 census. This is not correct. Illegal immigrants are still counted for purposes of the 2020 census. The president ial memorandum does not direct the Census Bureau, not thegrgr count Illegal Immigrants. It only affects subsequent use of census data to conduct the apportionment of congressional seat and Electoral College votes among the states. Illegal immigrants accounted for the census will be excluded from the Apportionment Base. Second, we heard from democrat the president memorandum will defer or actual federal funding as a result of the 2020 census. This is also incorrect. The president memorandum does not direct or divert any federal funding or exclude Illegal Immigrants from being considered in future funding decisions. Complete census 2020 data tabulated, will be available for congress, federal agencies, state legislatures and municipalities to use when making funding decisions. Weve also heard from democrat the Supreme Court ruled asking whether someone is a citizen is unconstitutional. That is not correct. The Supreme Court held asking whether someone is a u. S. Citizen on the census is lawful. The justices said both in light of the early understanding of and long practiceht under the clause, we conclude it permits congress and by extension, to inquire about citizenship on a censusus questionnaire. Although the administration failed to comply with procedural requirements and reinstating the question, which it appeared on previous census forms do question itself was not ruled to be unconstitutional. Weve also heard the president memorandum is unconstitutional. Not so says the constitutional law expert, who testified here this morning. We heard fromd him the proper understanding of the constitution is that we should only a portion seat based on the citizenry. And not foreign inhabitants especially those who are here illegally. They are here illegally. Counting those unlawfully present create perverse incentives, dilute representation of voters and states with fewer Illegal Immigrants and undermines the principle of one person, one vote. Representation should matter to everyone. Its a simple question. I yield back. I want to thank the Ranking Member and all of the participants today, all of our panelists and especially you, director. Thank you for your service in the military and your Public Service and voluntarily coming here today to be with us. I want to close by saying an undisputed fact that the coronavirus has changed everything in our country. It changed everything. The way we do things and i would say the coronavirus has changed the census because of the challenges, concerns for enumerators help, numeration was put off from the testimony today. You say the t enumeration will begin august 10. You put this off, you also asked us to put off the date for collecting the information and also sending the apportionment to the state of october 20202 the end of april 2021. Our congress, members of our democratic caucus, we passed a bill on the coronavirus and we includedic the date change that you requested. So its all these challenges youre confronting with the hard to count, the coronavirus and i would call it a disruptive and historic disease that has overburdened the Census Bureau and created more challenges, to all of government. Its this backdrop that President Trump issued what i consider an illegal memorandum last week from his emergency hearing, the purpose is the response to that memorandum it would dramatically change the manner in which the census count is reported. I agree with my colleagues that testified, and i applaud you that everyone will be counted, we will all work hard to get undocumented, everyone counted in the census. But on monday, the bureau posted on its website that the Census Bureau is working toward the plan to complete Data Collection by october 31, 2020. I noticed today the notice has been removed from your website. It hasnt been replaced with a new date or any date for when the Data Collection is supposed to happen. Ppi believe we should do with te census professionals say they need, they need this postponement to get the data by october 31 and to report it later, april 2021. Its been reported in the press that the administration is trying to rush the apportionment count and trying to push it back to december 31 before President Trump would leave the white house, if he possibly, we dont know what the outcome of the election is but he would be leaving the house before the Election Results if he loses the election. So i am concerned the administration is seeking to rush the process and sacrifice the accuracy of the census for political gain that the president s intent is to have all of this done before he leaves office so he can do what i believe is an illegal action. So i hope you will live up to the standards of professionalism, standby the request of secretary frost. I checked with the professionals in new york who are working on the census and they are working with the numbers that secretary ross requested, but the data is completed by october 2020. Its translated to the state by april 2021. I also want to say without objection, all members will have five legislative days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses to the chair which will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response. I asked our witnesses to please respond as they are able and i now say hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] binge watch book tv this summer. Saturday evenings 8 00 p. M. Eastern, settle in and watch hours of your favorite authors, saturday we are featuring books written by former first ladies including rosalynn carter, barbara bush, Hillary Clinton laura bush and michelle obama. Watch next saturday, august 15 as we feature the late nobel and pulitzer prizewinning author, toni morrison. Binge watch tv all summer on cspan2. The perjury case against President Trump former National Security advisor, Michael Flynn we reheard by the full u. S. Court of appeals for the d. C. Circuit on tuesday, the panel of ten judges will decide whether a Federal District court judge must dismiss the charges against michael lynn as recommended by the Justice Department. The case with tuesday 9 30 a. M. Eastern on cspan and cspan dont work. Or listen live with the three cspan radio app. The Senate Committee held a confirmation hearing for several underground divisions including Inspector General and deputy undersecretary for intelligence and security. Some of the topics covered the Committee Hearing included whistleblower protections, election interference and servicemember misconduct. The meeting will come to order, we consider the nominations of mr. Jason, Inspector General of the department of defense