Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing On Venezuelas Security And Humanitarian Issues 20240712

Testify in humanitarian assistance, upcoming election and influence from other countries. This is an hour and a half. Show of concern in the western hemisphere banned the political and humanitarian and economic crisis provoked by th moduro wih the most dangerous forces in the world over first established by his predecessor chavez. Cuba, russia, china, iran Transnational Criminal Organizations and four in designated organization to turn venezuela into their playground. Their activities are intolerable security threats to the United States and hemisphere at large and prolonged the humanitarian crisis provoked by the socialist policies of the regime. Nearly 5. 2 million have fled their homeland, placing a huge burden on the neighboring countries that generously accept that the refugees from maduros regime. 96 of those that stayed behind live in poverty with 80 facing extreme poverty. Prompting Food Shortages and dysfunctional Public Health system have condemned an entire generation to hunger and started growth. A series of unsuccessful attempts to restore freedom in thfreedom andunless they are coy maduros desires and ability to stay in power or perpetuating corruption and torture and emboldened regime and Left Democratic Forces seeking daunting challenges. President Trumps Campaign is a welcomed improvement. We should leave no stone unturned in support of the venezuelan peoples efforts to rid themselves of this evil. Its also appropriate to continue providing assistance to enable the neighbors to help the millions of venezuelan refugees that they are hosting. The International Community especially European Union must increase economic pressure if they are serious about the return of democracy in the end of the nightmare. We must make clear to those in havana and moscow that this is over. I look forward to hearing from todays witnesses o about the steps the u. S. Government is taking to counter the influence is in venezuela. With that, i know the Ranking Member has strong feelings on this and they would yield the floor to him. Thank you mr. Chairman and thank you for working with me on this hearing. I appreciate it. Mr. Abrams, yo you come before a committee at an urgent moment fofor venezuela, one with implications for the United States and our entire hemisphere. We face a critical moment entering government as the maduro regime seeks to a dictatorship with a helping hand. The crisis directly affects u. S. National security interest in the geopolitical competitors russia and china and iran seek to undermine american influence. Moreover, the people of venezuela continued suffering grave human rights abuses, humanitarian catastrophe the code catastrophe and mass displacement across the hemisphere. As venezuelans strive to struggle i should say to strive to restore the democracy, legislative elections are scheduled this year. Not surprisingly, the regime has great every aspect of the electoral process, thereby ensuring increased instability in more widespread suffering. The evidence is already there. After two decades of u. S. Investment in colombia security, we now see they are operating openly across venezuela and large swaths of ungoverned territory. They join a wide range of actors promoting and profiting from the drug trade, illegal gold mining and human suffering. Most tragically of course is the daily suffering the venezuelans and or. Genocide, Sexual Violence and trafficking of women and girls are reportedly on the rise. Genetic increases in the maternal and infant mortality reflected in the state of the venezuelan Health System and the World Food Program and assist in february that one third faced moderate or severe securities. Additionally, the regime has perpetrated more statesponsored murders than any latin American Government since the war of the 1970s and 80s. In the last two years and the high commissioner for human rights has reported over 8,000 extra judicial killings by the Security Forces as well as the grotesque patterns of torture. These conditions have forced more than 5. 2 million venezuelans to flee their country in search of protection and assistance. I traveled a year ago and heard heartwrenching stories from individuals in the humanitarian tragedy in venezuela. With the pandemic and related economic downturn converging on the crisis of the refugees and migrants, the United States must mobilize International Partners to further expand assistance and protection for the venezuelan people. It is in the current trajectory if it continues, more venezuelans will be displaced from their homes in the number displaced during the devastation conflict. While other countries are generously hosting millions of venezuelans, the Trump Administration has ignored my request to grant temporary protected status of some 200,000 venezuelans in the United States. Its turned away asylumseekers at the southern border and that is absolutely unacceptable. The Administration Must change course. Through the act last year, democrats, republicans in concert with the Administration United in our recognition however in june president trumps stated that he did not think that this decision to recognize the president was very meaningful, sending the wrong signal to our allies and adversaries. They must be purposeful and lead the coalition to build to support the president so i expect to hear a strategy on how we will ensure he doesnt use fraudulent elections and moreover with the cronies facing charges in the United States for Drug Trafficking, there should be no doubt about their criminal credentials. They arwe are dealing with a mae Law Enforcement challenge in venezuela. Never have so many in our hemisphere fallen victim to criminals so willing to destroy their own country but for the sole purpose of emerging themselves and avoiding justice. I must coordinate an International Campaign to confront the National Criminality and i look forward to hearing from you, special representative, on what changes people make to increase the chances of success in the next six months. And as i said, changes. There has been bipartisan support by most of the sanctions and that which weve used for humanitarian aid, but maduro remains entrenched in power and access into venezuela is extremely limited. We cannot continue on the same course and expect to achieve different results. They may have squandered the opportunity crafted by the valiant venezuelans and i hope it isnt too late to open the window again. Thank you senator menendez. Those remarks are well taken. I think out of all the things going on in the congres congrese that divides us probably nothing brings us together more than the sense that the maduro has to go and we are united, if not universally, very close to universally so we are interested in hearing what these witnesses have to say. Today im pleased to welcome special representative Elliott Abrams and mr. Joshua hodges, Senior Administrative assistant for latin america and the caribbean at the agency for International Development coming scid. Mr. Abrams is a scholar of expert and served into administration on the staff of senators Henry Jackson and daniel moynihan. Hes written five books on American Foreign policy and teachers on the subject of georgetown universitys edmund ggolbartlett school of foreign service. Mr. Hodges overseas usaid programs in latin america and the caribbean and previously served on the staff of mike johnson and senator david baker of louisiana. At the department of energies National Nuclear Security Administration and the National Security council in the white house we will start with mr. Abrams. This one is yours. [inaudible] your microphone is not on. Chairman, members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to testify. This policy has broad bipartisan support that has been successful in supporting the democratic opposition and maintaining a Broad International coalition and denying revenue to the brutal regime, but they have sent to see a free and Fair Elections are the conditions that would permit such a license. In january, 2019, the first country the u. S. To recognize. Since then, he has toured the support of nearly 60 countries. They remain steadfast in our support. The proposed democratic transition framework as a path to establish a broadly acceptable government to oversee free and Fair Elections and we are prepared to work with all venezuelans and other nations to achieve the goal and lift sanctions when the necessary conditions are met. I want to thank this committee and the congress for its support through legislation and funding. The u. S. Is the single largest donor of humanitarian assistance for venezuela from 2017 for now. The u. S. Has provided more than 856 million to venezuelans suffering inside of venezuela and neighboring countries. And we should recognize those that have welcomed 5 million specialty colombia peru, ecuador for their continued support as well. Criminal dictatorships like maduro are hard to defeat. The maduro regimes relentless attacks on dissidents and again venezuelas Democratic Institutions and National Assembly demonstrated succession regardless of the cost of the nation and its people. In july, the un high commissioner for human rights released two reports on Human Rights Violations in venezuela. They continued intimidation oppression, arbitrary detention, torture and murder. This includes 1,324 extrajudicial killings from january to may of this year. For more than two and a half years that regime has unlawfully detained six u. S. Oil executiv executives. We were relieved to hear july 30 that two were moved to house arrest. This is a positive first step and of course we hope for more. The regime also continues to detain nearly 400 Political Prisoners including military officers, medical professionals, journalists. National Assembly Deputies and labor rights activists. We remain concerned over the foreign malign influence in venezuela. The regimes collaboration. Illegal armed groups or forcibly recruiting formidable venezuelan children into armed conflict, compelling many into forced labor. Cuba treats it as a colony shipping food, medicine, diesel and gasoline from venezuela to the even as the venezuelan people suffered shortages of all of them. Cuban security personal surround maduro, two Intelligence Officers were indicted in the military. China helps with cyber publications. Russian military had hoped maintain Security Forces and now we are seeing a rekindled relationship in the world state sponsored terrorism. The recent hijacking of the National Council and major Democratic Political parties its how they plan to take control of the National Assembly through fraudulent elections in december. The Democratic Political parties joined to say they refuse to participate in uninsured democracies around the world also refuse to recognize such fraud. We look forward to today free and Fair Elections are held and the new democratically elected government in place, u. S. Sanctions can be lifted if we look forward to restoring relations to helping refugees return to their beloved country and to see children share in the bountiful natural wealth of the country. Thank you for inviting me today and for your continued interest and towards the struggle for freedom in venezuela. I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you mr. Abrams. Mr. Hodges. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity and honored to be here to testify on behalf of usaid. We are grateful for the bipartisan support and response to the crisis. Et months ago, the Trump Administration recognized the legitimate and legal president of venezuela in accordance with the venezuelan constitution. As you know the crisis had been manufactured by the inability to govern the rampant corruption that as a result o is a result c collapse and humanitarian consequences and cultural repression that the regime continues to use to torture and even murder venezuelan people. Today the Assembly Continues to push forward despite the challenging circumstances including the humanitarian and economic crisis and the regimes radical oppression and recently covid19. Because of these realities more than 5. 2 million have left home and relocated to neighboring countries. Extenuating across the borders. To address the crisis in venezuela and throughout the region the United States is providing substantial coordinated humanitarian Development Assistance. Inside venezuela, usaid humanitarian assistance is saving lives and stems the spread of infectious diseases, deals for vulnerable families, water, sanitation and hygiene supplies. A few tangible examples of this assistance includes serving more than 1. 4 million hot meals to affordable venezuelans and delivering enough medical supplies to help the facilities help on hundred 60,000 people. In addition to the previous challenges, its exacerbated an already tighter situation inside venezuela. In response to the pandemic, they provide covid19 related assistance inside venezuela throughout the region. Our efforts are making an impact. Maduro stood in the way of allowing more help to venezuela and the timin their time of neey creating numerous obstacles of various international ngos. The organizations face constant harassment from security personnel affiliated with maduro and legitimate regime continues to impede International Experts stuff on maintaining visas and registering certain organizations. Let me be clear, usaid condemns any effort to intimidate or threaten humanitarian workers seeking to save lives. Throughout the region, usaids priority is to support communities that are generously hosting the venezuelans in a thr time of need especially in brazil, colombia, ecuador. We are aiming to reach approximately 943,000 venezuelan refugees in the country with food assistance, health care and clean water while humanitarian assistance is saving lives the agency that it is his medium and longterm assistance is also needed. The Regional Development is outlined to help receiving host country governments impacted by the migration such as education systems, health care, Economic Development as well as government capacity building. We are using Development Assistance to help support the government and National Assembly with technical training, staffing support, equipment and communication efforts. Usaid oldsters the ability to effectively operate and interact with constituents despite the increased oppression from the legitimate regime from our assistance to enable increased participation with what officials. Our commitment to democracy and rule of lathe rule of law is ceo the engagement in the hemisphere. In addition to the administration and the National Assembly can usaid supports is defending them in right answer Civil Society watchdogs. Our hope has been critical to investigating and documenting rampant corruption, electoral fraud and human rights abuses. Independent news outlets were able to better operate so they can share information through online reporting car radios and other forms of communication. Usaid is also helping Democratic Forces plan for the day that the regime gives way to freedom and change can take place. When the change does occur, funding and a bilateral the bill agreement will position us to be ready to expand work quickly. For the time being, the effort continues to support the people of venezuela. The administration, the National Assembly, scores of activists that are able to continue despite oppression and difficult situations on the ground. One step must be taken for the free and prosperous venezuela must continue to pressure to relinquish control and allow democratic change. This includes truly free elections, not the socalled that are planned for december. Venezuelans have suffered long enough under the brutality of Nicolas Maduro and we look forward to today we can celebrate with old venezuelans when they meet their potential as a free, Prosperous Society and thank you today for the invitation to testify i look forward to questions. We will give a round of questioning and then turned over to senator menendez. You mentioned these elections coming up. This question is for you it is my understanding that maduro has taken a page out of the iranian book where they have in Election Commission that decides who can run and who cant. Anything that happens like that of course immediately it takes away any legitimacy that it would have. I think its important that this be highlighted and people understand if you can pick your opponent, theres no question how the election is going to go. Your thoughts . I agree with that. Theyve prevented a large number of people from running. Theyve taken over several of the largest Political Parties and replaced leaderships of the parties and have given the assets, offices, to people that the regime chooses. They will hold its december 6. Today there are zero voting machines. Zero. So, how they are going to do this defies comprehension and click the 2018 provincial election, this will be another fraud. Thanks. Thats critical for everybody to understand, and i think that we also need to this isnt an election at all it is just a facade and there is no legal or practical story whatsoever. You didnt mention the military is. Im told theres 3500 generals. Im not exactly sure how you discipline a military with 3500 generals of your thoughts on where they are and where they are going . There are more than in all of the nato countries put together. I think theres a lot of worry in many ranks of the military. Youre a soldier, an officer, you have a mother and father and cousins, you see whats happening in the country. But you are being spied on by the thousands of cuban intelligence agents, and at the very top you have a lot of people that are quite correct and profiting from this regime, so the military has at least up until now then unwilling to separate itself at all from what the regime is doing to the country, and its tragic because the democratic venezuela is going to need a professional military. They have if of security to deal with. To try to reestablish and distance themselves from the crimes of this regime. Thank you. Senator menendez. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Abrams, sunday the Coalition Announced that it will not participate in those fraudulent elections yet this decision carries implications for the democratically elected National Assembly and the government of the interim president. President. The beleaguered constitution to the degree that it still exists under maduros dictatorship calls for a new National Assembly to be seated the first week of january, 2021. So im deeply concerned that please the moment to consolidate the dictatorship in venezuela. Given the decision not to participate in the fraudulent elections, how do you assess the impact, how does this impact interim government in the first week of january where theyre supposed to be a new National Assembly . Whats the implication is that. Policy and recognition of the government . Thanks, senator. He occupies the office of interim president because it was vacant. As a result of the corrupt fraudulent financial elections. In our view nothing changes on january 5 with respect to paw. It can improve his situation by holding another curb fraudulent election so in our view, the president of venezuela today and after january 5, 2021 is juan guaido and a National Assembly that has been meeting until about i guess march is not going to be able to meet. I think you can expect if we try to meet everybody, it would be arrested, so i do think that there is danger maduro is going to be able to shut down the operations of any kind of a National Assembly. But you move on and i think many countries around the world let me ask about that. What efforts are we taking with our international for us to push back those against the democratic elections and the continuing recognition after january assuming that this plays out the way that we envisioned it. Of the recognition of the fraudulent election weve been discussing this with about 60 countries that are recognizing juan guaido and i do expect that all of them, and we will be in touch, will continue to recognize him and will not recognize this fraudulent election. I hope that there is a more robust engagement with our International Partners because my personal sense of conversation is that it is framed, and i think we cannot afford that at the end of the day. But they turned to illegal mining. As the venezuela crisis deteriorates, there is growing evidence that violent groups are competing for control of the countrys Mineral Resources which has resulted in a bloom of illegal coal mining that the political industry is destroying vast areas of the amazon rainforest and fueling human rights abuses, particularly among the indigenous populations and generating illicit income for the armed codes that arm bed the stability of the country and the region. What specific steps is the United States taking along with other International Actors to ensure that companies that purchase, sell and trade gold dot being extracted an in this y are following regulations and not unwittingly supporting the gold Mining Operations in venezuela . There is more in the report. What we have been doing is following every single case we can find. As we find if we go after both the country and the company and in the number of cases weve gone to government and said this is happening in your territory, and youve got to present it and we have been successful. We find for example people doing this last year has now stopped. But theres more of it now and so we are stepping up our activities, we being the state department and Treasury Department to go after every single case. Id be interested to know if you need any other legislative or regulatory assistance to do this, because obviously a lost is getting out in the Countries National patrimony is being used in a way that is so corrupt and pervasive against its own people. Final question, mr. Chairman. Does the Trump Administration have the authority to grant to the eligible venezuelans . Do you agree it wouldnt be safe to deport them back to maduros dictatorship at this point in time . Yes, if we are not doing that. Why hasnt he designated them . I think the answer to that is an important decisions that have removed, that its irreversible now and i think that makes speed to i dont think they can undermine the realities. It depends upon how one of them does this so it seems to me we applaud colombia and ecuador in all these countries that have taken millions of people and we cant even get a temporary protected status to those that are already here. That isnt leadership. That isnt sending a global message that they ask others to do we are willing to do ourselves. At the end of the day they are in limbo in their lives. There is no reason for that when there is a process that can get you a temporary protected status and a pathway forward to regularize your life while waiting for the moment to return to her countrys. I dont get it. Its beyond imagination. Thank you, senator menendez. Mr. Abrams, i want to join in that invitation but it needs statutory assistance regarding the illegal gold or oil for that matter i think that we are all in. These countries need to survive because they have a flow of cash and that comes from those products. I think senator menendez and i would be glad to join in on any efforts to assist you legislatively. Senator paul. Thank you, mr. Abrams without a doubt venezuela is a socialist nightmare and a vivid and writet but if the system. It is appalling that a country like venezuela sits atop more than saudi arabia is in such a dire state that actually people keep their pets. No one disputes the disaster however when it comes to regime change, the u. S. Track record is less than stellar. Its been largely ignored the possible replacement for maduro, juan guaido, is also a socialist. The Political Party is recognized by the socialist international. My fear is that even if you get a kinder, gentler form of socialism, its still socialism and the results will be similar, economic malaise and economic disaster. What do you say as t yes to repg one socialist with another in venezuela . I dont think the main problem in venezuela is one party or another as a member of the socialist inter national, which a lot of the part earth have been. Its that its a vicious, brutal, murderous dictatorship and that is the reason we are engaged there. I would respond to alleviate the stigma of socialism from being a problem. Socialism isnt a problem there and i guess many others that have watched socialism through the years have argued you cant have a kinder form of socialism than what happens with democratic socialism is when you have a state owned the means to production or property that ultimately it devolves into the crony system that would chavez and maduro started out as isnt what it ended up as when you have a complete form of socialism, it devolves into perhaps authoritarianism is a side effect of socialism. When batista was rooted out, he was a socalled crony. There were people who supported castro in the beginning and it turned out he wasnt even any better but was probably worse than batista, so i think we ought to be careful with this and discounting socialism having anything to do with it is discounting an economic nightmare thats happened in venezuela and saying just if we have better socialists we wouldnt have so much of a problem. Do you think that the u. S. Government or the president has the right to militarily bring about without the authority of congress . Do you think the president has the right to do that . s denigratin i think the president has the right to conduct Foreign Policy in the United States under the constitution and we certainly would like to see a democratic venezuela. Sounds like a non answer but do you believe the president has the right to do without Congressional Authority this is an important question. Also if the answer is that socialism is the problem, we think one socialist is a little bit more benign than another and that the president has the right to do it, we could very much involved in this. The reason it is so important and the discussion of the regime change is so important is president of trump gets it almost more than anybody else in the iraq war which i know you were a big proponent of this and other disaster that getting rid of one bad person we were left with something may be even worse and that is the vacuum, the chaos and the terrorism that comes from having no government. This happened again in libya. The question of whether or not we want to always know what is best for another country and we will replace one leader with one bad, do you still believe the iraq war was something that would support today . Do you still think that it was a good idea . That feels like another non answer but it would be nice to know. The president thinks its the worst Public Policy decision of the last generation that it led to a vacuum and chaos and more terrorism but also more of the emboldened iran, so the same that wanted to go after hussein now want to go after iran. One thing leads to another and this unintended consequences and this discussion is an important one and the shipping so casually dismiss socialism as being the problem. Im not casually dismissing it, and i think it is a very bad Economic Policy. But we have had allies, england and france socialist government, germany, there were allies of ours throughout the cold war. I wasnt a problem as long as they were democrats. Whether they pursue an Economic Policy is theirs to decide because they are a country. Probably venezuela is that they have a murderous corrupt regime and is having an impact not only inside but on its neighbors. If it is a murderous history or if there are consequences, socialism why does it seem time and time again socialism leads to autocracy and that is important because if you get a benign democratic socialism, how long does that last until it devolves, i think that is a question worth asking. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you mr. Chairman and both of you for being here. As you know, ambassador abrams, the powers like russia, china, iran and turkey have not only publicly supported through a network of corporation and sanctions, they significantly enriched cronies while ordinary venezuelans continue to suffer. I know a number of sanctions have been taken in response to the activity stemming from adversaries like russia, cuba and iran. But turkey on thwith turkey on d engaged in the same activities as a nato ally. Theyve established numerous fronts for example they may not be pronouncing this correctly, a tiny Turkish Company has capital just 1,775,000 no refinery and it was responsible for 8 of the oil exports in 2019. So, given whats going on with turkey, isnt there more we should do to disrupt their support of maduro and the corrupt links . Yes, senator is a problem. Turkey isnt doing in venezuela with the russians and cuba is doing. But they are lending themselves to this kind of corrupt activity and also gold. We see a lot of gold and we saw earlier this year some of the Smart Companies develop in mexico. But with the help of the Mexican Government we are shutting them down. We just havent had that kind of help from the turkish government. Thats why i asked if we dont think theres more we should be thinking about in terms of sanctioning turkey. We keep trying. We keep going after companies as we find them. Can you give us a list that weve gone after and what success they have had . I would be happy to supply it to you, some of it for the investigations that are ongoing. We wouldnt be able to do that in a classified form we would be able to. If perhaps that could be something shared with the whole committee. If they could provide the list, what you can do this and classified for the record, that would be much appreciated. Senator shaheens points are well taken. During the last hearing that the Committee Held on venezuela in march of 2019, we discussed the impact of the conflict with women and several people have mentioned that already. And usaid administrator stated that the disproportionate humanitarian effects on women and girls is the most dark and gloomy part of the crisis. Can either of you give an update but humanitarian assistance efforts that weve undertaken with respect to women and girls particularly given whats happening with the coronavirus . Yes, thank you maam this is an issue that we are tracking closely just stemming from the pandemic, but specific to venezuela to promote these types of activities streamlined through all the programming. Today we focused on th focus ont immediate lifesaving assistance first and foremost and the prevention of genderbased violence as i said those that are atlarge for the program in the pandemic we are looking to step up and make sure that in venezuela and in the region we are more directly addressing that it is part of all of our programming and with regards to inside of venezuela the access to available funding, additional funding we will make sure to incorporate this. To highlight the number to date the u. S. Government has provided 611 million humanity in assistance for portions of the Funding Impact this and its an area i know we need to do more but they are working on it. When you say we need to step up are you suggesting that more money needs to be provided, we need to be engaging in different types of activities, working more with the International Community, what do you mean specifically . We are working with the community on this in fact there are some specific programs funded in the usaid. What i mean by that is make sure that as they ar we are pushing d seeing the trends emerge, we are having discussions with our partners to ensure it is just a Partner Program into something they do as a number of things but its an area of focus where they are coming up with new ways to address it and i can speak to covid19 at large across the region. Weve already had conversations to ensure we have specific programs in place addressing genderbased violence and helping women and minorities who are being targeted. Thank you very much mr. Chairman. Senator rounds. Thank you and both of our individualindividual this one is justified. I appreciate your work into perspective. Mr. Abrams, in june the president took attack with regards to mr. Juan guaido. He said he is elected i dont think i dont think i was in favor i said some people liked it, some didnt. I was okay with it. I dont think it was very meaningful one way or another. And i think that was a surprise in the policy of the nation have been pretty consistent in saying that we recognize him as the president of the country and someone we firmly supported. There is one voice that really matters when it comes to speaking on the nations Foreign Policy, the state department and all of us can express our views and ensure that those have linked to the people of the old and the debate of venezuela. Perhaps he shares senator pauls comments that all socialists are pretty much the same, and whether it juan guaido or maduro doesnt make a big difference. What is the posture of the United States of america with regards to the presidency of venezuela and will that ever be communicated to the world unless the president expresses himself . We recognize maduro debate could jua juan guaido as the inm president of venezuela and have since january 5, 2019. We continue to do so. We will continue to do so after these corrupt parliamentary elections, and we try to say that in many different ways every day. My question was until the president says it, will that ever break through . The president has said and you remember the state of the union of only the president , but the guests in the balcony and happily bipartisan Standing Ovations so i think that he has decided. Without supporting maduro do you believe he would be able to hang on . I do not. I think that the agents and russian veto in the Security Council are important in keeping maduro in power. What then could we do with regards to russia, china, cuba . If they are already serious about removing maduro and seeing a democratically elected president in that country what would they be doing on the call with two putin and what actions could we take if we were very serious about removing maduro and seeing the 5 Million People be able to return to their homes . There is a spectrum i suppose the far end of the you could blockade venezuela. That is an act of war and you could prevent ships from going in and coming out. Weve obviously chosen not to do that. We talked to the chinese about this and the russians about this. I dont think either of them has great confidence in maduro. If you look at the amount of money china has been to venezuela this year it is basically zero. They are backing away. The russians are taking money out of venezuela to get their money back that they maintained the political protection and protection in the u. S. Given your expression of their timid support for maduro, would it not be possible to exert sufficient incentive for them to walk away from it as opposed to continuing to support it in a substantial way work ist is not a high priority for the nation . Are we so incapable to get the two nations that you suggest dont have a great commitment to back away . It hasnt worked so far. I think from the point of view of putin, it isnt costing him any money now and obviously he has a base in south america but if they start to way out what are the things but to, we have not found anything. Thank you mr. Chairman. Your point i would suggest that its in our interest to suggest that its not a freebie. Thank you for returning the ti time. [inaudible] [laughter] is very minute charge for a . We will talk. Senator murphy. Thank you mr. Chairman. I feel like its groundhog day. Weve been told by the administration that russias support for all of god delete code is tested and the truth of matters they were always willing to do more than we were to protect their interest and that is likely the exact same case in venezuela said the policy is misguided and a deep respect for both of you who are testifying before the committee, but we have to be clear that the venezuelan policy the last year and a half has been a disaster and if we are not honest about that then we cannot self correct. We have to admit recognizing juan guaido right out of the gate and then moving quickly to implement sanctions didnt work. All they did is hard and the play and allow maduro to take juan guaido as an american patsy. We could have used the prospect of the recognition or sanctions as leverage and to try to get european allies and other partners on the same page. We could have spent more time trying to talk through or neutralized earlier before we back them into the corner from which they are not moving but alall we did is played all fours on the number one and it didnt work and its just been an embarrassing mistake after mistake since. First we thought getting him to declare himself president would be enough to topple the regime. Than wthen we thought putting in the border would be enough. Then we tried to sort of construct the coup in april and it blew up in our face when the generals decided to stay with him in the end. We undermined norways talks last summer and this march we released a framework that frankly is almost a carbon copy of the very one that was in front of the parties last year. Now after wasting all this time, we are stuck with elections about to happen and the opposition refused to enter and then we are going to be in a position where we are recognizing someone as the leader of venezuela that doesnt control the government, who doesnt run the military and barely even hold office and we dont do this in other places. Nobody knows but i did finish his second in the election. We dont recognize that person no matter how corrupt they are because doing that makes us look weak if we cant do anything about it. So i do think that it is important to ask questions about what comes next. I might have time for only one but i have to. First is the question of what do we do with juan guaido. So you say we are going to recognize him because he is the former leader of the National Assembly. You know that there are contests within the opposition. What happens if six months from today someone else emerges as a moral legitimate voice of the opposition of juan guaido. What criteria do we use to recognize someone new or will juan guaido be the recognized leader of venezuela permanently, no matter how conditions change on the ground . I think the situation is unique because hes the president of the National Assembly. There will be a corrupt election now i dont think any democratic country is going to recognize and that isnt going to change his status. I dont think that people find anybody in the opposition leadership who will claim otherwise. Also id like to say [inaudible] i will stipulate to that. It is a fallacy is to suggest to replace juan guaido and i think we have to sort of at least think through the criteria by which we will have somebody else. Let me ask a quick second question which is theirs, juan guaidos prerequisites did not include maduro stepping down and get you said as recently as a week ago the only thing we want to talk about is his removal from power. Are we open to a discussion with maduro in which he stays in power as a transition that is free and fair because if he isnt in power, theres no guarantee his allies could read the election. We do not believe with the cuban intelligence agents we do not see that that is a possibility of a free election. Juan guaido doesnt share that view because the preconditions to take and could not require the removal. I think that this is just a prescription to get stuck in a downward spiral which we cannot remove ourselves. Weve got to be more nimble and Creative Solutions by which we could get to have a transition. Thewe presented this framework r the transition precisely to show what we would like to see happ happen. Both could run for president. We thought we were putting out in many countries that looked at this headset this is a positive formula and we showed the lifting of u. S. Sanctions. The notion that we have done this without International Support i would submit is not accurate. Thank you. Senator rubio. How many times has latin america recognized him as a legitimate interim president . Check every president except i think cuba, argentina, mexico. And nicaragua, sorry. We didnt just pull juan guaido out of the air. For the democratically elected member of the National Assembly and the democratically elected members of the National Assembly has made the president of the assembly that when there is a vacancy is that not the reason however we did just juan guaido until the next free election. Senator paul is no longer here but said the policy of replacing maduro, that is in the policy of the United States. The policy of the United States is a transition to free and Fair Elections with the people that choose who the next president is. That is exactly right. Let me ask another thing. First of all i think its fair to say the maduro regime isnt a government in the traditional sense of the word. Its an organized crime ring. Is that a fair characterization . It is and its what distinguishes it from the latin american cases of military that were replaced by democratic governance and as a criminal enterprise basically what its comprised of as the individuals that allow maduro to remain, quote unquote, in power. Much of the country they dont wreck debut to exercise this but they are heavily focused. To the extent they are in control of National Territory some of the people allow them to do it. The reason they do it isnt either ideological or personal affinity towards mr. Maduro. Its the fact that theyve become very rich and have been they want to maintain power that allows them to keep their money and their personal freedom. Would you not to say that is the glue that holds them together in this enterprise . Iowa, senator. That explains part of the difficulty in getting them out. The reason they wont be visited because they love maduro. Some of them want to replace them. The reason they cannot leave is because right now hes their best bet at least for this moment and that is the policy options before them, this is the one that guarantees most power for the time being to protect their wealth and freedom. I think thats right and again it explains the great difficulty of venezuela. Is it also fair to say letst he would have been moving forward in american politics and may be there will be a change in policy . To me this is an issue thats been pretty strong bipartisan support. I think its a bad assumption on their part but there are some that are sort of standing around saying lets wait and see because maybe after the election there will be a change in policy and that will take the pressure off. That is our calculation, too. That to some extent he is watching and waiting. I think its a bad bet. I dont think he has many supporters that are in favor and remaining in power. The next one youve answered many different ways at times, but i want to reiterate once more. The president or anybody else, when they discuss talking to maduro, that means a negotiation with maduro about how he believes the current position and allows for there to be free and Fair Elections. We are not discussing talks, we are not open to talks about how he remains in power. Thats right. We are open to talks about his leaving power. Does he want to stay in venezuela or leave and what happens to the sanctions, that sort of thing. For him and other people, those discussions they are willing to have, but the negotiations about his remaining power in venezuela, we are not going to have. Do we see them buying all of this stuff, was the most oilrich countries in the world and the Refining Capacity and thats been the case for a long time way even before the sanctions to cold. How are they paying for its . With gold as far as we are aware. From both reserves and a legal binding . I think the Trump Administration is gotten some things right and somethings wrong i dont the get it was easy for the ago i government guaido government so that i would put on to the Positive Side and those that recognize the government doesnt of the sanctions that we wanted them to in those nations that were with us on the recognition that not where they expressed reticence and use that as a reason. But fundamentally i dont think the venezuelan reality is bad because of the United States or in spite of the United States. It is a brutal dictatorship popped up by the worlds leading authoritarian nation. And venezuela is a perfect example to the world if you want to live under the authoritarian government take a look with russia and china and cuba if this is a form of government you want to then take a look at what it has done. So what should we do now . First we have to be realistic. So from the beginning from the witness side we hear optimism expressed of what guaido might do. And have never been optimistic they were never optimistic with the transition to be quick. This is it just venezuela issue and with those optimistic people. We often overestimate with that internal reality and be more humble about that. Second the humanitarian challenges now between 40 and 50000 venezuelan to cross the border back into venezuela because when you had to shut down the economy and put people in a desperate situation even though desperate and venezuela you could see people crossing back. I am interested in columbia but as a top priority and then to do everything we can that both parties have made in terms of turning columbia around because when on the border of venezuela it stands as the example if you want to live under authority at one authoritarians columbia can offer the opposite if you embrace democratic norms look at the positive arc you can be on. That is fragile and it is a risk and the venezuelan situation put us at risk and the second element of that venezuelan policy needs to be continued support for columbia. Now i do think the third thing is important i know what senator menendez said but if our critique it is a brutal dictatorship and then to say all of that we dont you come into our country it undercuts the message. This is the perfect example of how tps should be used but what can we do for guatemala to support that government as they deal with this venezuelan challenge . First i agree with you about the importance to make sure this multi decade bipartisan effort stays on track. And you can see the burden on the hospital educational system that they are doing it. And those that eradicate coca and hats off to the president and his government so we need that bipartisanship to continue we need Political Support from the administration which we have and we probably need to look at the aid level because to come up with these numbers before the surge of a couple million venezuelans into columbia. I completely agree with your comments and the special representative. We are engage directly with colombians and throughout the inter agency of cocoa eradication in the venezuela crisis and in addition to make sure those conversations are connected back to the covert pandemic we take a series of steps to make sure the pandemic will not wash away the gains that we made within columbia. But then to update those based on the current reality not where we were six weeks ago. We are actively doing that with the state department and inter agency. Senator cruise. Thank you for your service or your testimony. Mr. Abrams does maduro survive the year . We are working to make that happen and for that to occur is venezuelan people have to react against this election. International support of 59 countries and to reject it is a complete fraud we need personal sanctions and here is a case where more is better. And then with the iran and venezuela relationship. To understand correctly maduro was on a plane, ready to leave, he gave it up, and the russians called him and convinced him to stay. Is that right . And what caused him to get off the plane . I dont know if thats right. I have heard several stories. One version his wife the left. Another reason he wasnt on the plane but was going to get on but the Russian Ambassador met with him and persuaded him and said we are behind you. I have Firm Intelligence on that. And then one of the important question with the generals and admirals and also in terms of the calculus those military leaders and im not sure that third question is the predominant question. Some of them are ideological summer criminals. And how they view the regime. And is probably the case. In every country that comes from dictatorship to democracy in latin america or south africa. And then to get messages. And then a modernized paid military but you will not get it from maduro. So what more can congress or the administration do so to come to the unequivocal conclusion it is much worse for me than if they are illegitimate regime was toppled with the government and venezuela. Actually the best thing that this policy will not change. We will not let up on the sanctions with the criminal prosecutions. We will stay with it. This will keep on going year after year until this regime is replaced. This committee has acted bipartisan before i think that would be a very positive thing if we could come together and do that again to make clear regardless of what happens in the election 91 days from now. Those that have been imprisoned related to charges manufactured. Theyve missed birthdays and weddings and funerals and imprisoned in inhumane conditions and subject to abuse the families continue to live in fear for their health and wellbeing. And a lot more needs to be done. What is the status of your efforts to make sure the six are brought home . We are in touch with the families or anyone that is trying to help including governor richardson who was down there a couple weeks ago. We continue to make a global effort with the governor of mexico and that it can and spain and who can we go back to . What can we do to increase the pressure on the regime . We hope the next step as a step it has been two and a half years now and they belong home with their families. Theyve never had a trial. Thank you. 40 percent of hospitals and venezuela lack electricity 40 percent lack access to water. And then to estimate 7 Million People are needed for humanitarian assistance but only able to address 10 percent. What are we doing as the state department usaid to expand access inside venezuela for an organization seeking to deliver lifesaving assistance with respect to the humanitarian assistance . Are we building on the agreement between guaido and maduro Health Officials and then to create democracy in the interim there is the humanitarian catastrophe. Yes. And from that perspective there is no question in my mind whether or not we remain committed and the venezuelan people day in and day out and but what is inside of venezuela 128 million longterm development programs. Now for Critical Health and water and food assistance. Inside venezuela. We have reach 9 Million People with the totality and the Daytoday Health support and we continue to see ways exactly what you are saying. We call on the International Community. The Panamerican Health organization . Yes sir. And then with the state department and others over the last several months to overcome obstacles to make sure the us taxpayer funds would be used. I would like to follow up in the office of the totality of what youre doing on this regard. And with the venezuela crisis with the effort to respond to genderbased violence . I would have to follow up with a specific figure. All of our programming includes aspects that deal with that but we dont have specific line items or earmarks designated. Where violence against women lgbt individuals are people with disabilities, women and girls and violence and trafficking that has a long history of supporting efforts on trafficking. Absolutely we will give you those numbers so inside venezuela that is protection from all we will follow but those exact figures. Its mentioned in my Opening Statement and documented over 8000 extrajudicial killings and with those crimes against humanity under section 142 when congress required the state department to have an assessment of the regimes role of potential crimes against humanity list of allegations with any mention of the report and it failed to contribute to the measure on maduro regimes crimes that we both agree about. Do you believe that statesponsored campaign should be considered a crime . Yes senator. Would you go back to the department and ask them to resubmit section 142 of the report to treat it with the seriousness it deserves . It is a compelling reality with 8000 and judicial killings you dont even mention it nothing more than a list of allegations and could do much better than that. Yes or we see columbia gorillas we do including eastern venezuela. Also actors profiting from the drug trade with mining and human trafficking. Is that true . Sexual violence and trafficking on the rise. Is that true . Yes. Is it fair to say that maduros regime has perpetrated more statesponsored murders than any latin america than the seventies and eighties . Yes. We have already acknowledged the commission of the human rights report of 8000 extrajudicial killings as well with torture and rape. True. Five. 3 million venezuelans have flee their country. Yes another rate it is going as possible more would flee venezuela than syrians flee their horrific war. Yes. Its true maduro and his cronies have been charged with Drug Trafficking and a massive Law Enforcement challenge. Yes. And its also true that in fact what we have here is the challenge in a regional context while columbia has been a great neighbor and a good hemispheric leader it has consequences to columbia stability to demand to several million isnt that the potential as this continues to hemorrhage . Yes it sounds to me that venezuela is a clear and present danger to the United States. To the United States and to its neighbors. In my mind if all of that rises to a clear and present danger to the United States , we would be far more serious in our engagement and following and sanctioning the Turkish Companies making it possible into proactively seeking out the transfers of oils going to cuba which is why it has several thousand and then to prop them up and we would be sanctioning Russian Companies specifically providing assistance to the maduro regime and then to take a page from senator murphy. Clearly we would be engaging with the russians and chinese as well as the turks and others. And ultimately making it something of value to them to undermine. Is right now they are popping him up and they see no consequence to keep him popped up. In our own hemisphere, in our front yard to have a clear and present danger to the United States is pretty amazing. There is a lot more that should be done. I just fear at the end of the day were on autopilot to get us to where we want. We have already done and are doing many of the things that you mentioned it was our move against the ships that turned them away from bringing gasoline to venezuela we sanctioned so we are doing this it has not had the impact you and members of the committee wanted to have which is in venezuela yet. The spanish who seem to help us in this regard they have influence in the hemisphere i could lay out for you a dozen different initiatives to focus to restore democracy to venezuela and stability to the region , the lawlessness taking place in venezuela is alarming even if maduro leaves we will have a real challenge at the end of the day. Some of us have a sense that again were on autopilot and not engaging in ways and with others to bring this to a successful conclusion that i know we both share but honestly say we have different views and i appreciate your willingness. Good points all along. However i do question if the chinese and cubans or anyone elses engage there will listen to us and its in their best interest to leave putting a stick in their eyes. But perhaps you made some good suggestions caps on Bipartisan Legislation urging the things you have laid out that might be appropriate i think everybody pulls the wagon the same without Bipartisan Legislation. And predicated on the idea to force the fissure between maduro and military leadership hoping be a substantial break and those that appear to get cold feet. But you say hes you hope is not there the end of the year so what is the belief to split the military leadership away from the darrow . And second, and the way to successfully and have on perhaps through diplomats to hold together his leadership. Those unlike military leaders and previous dictatorships and then to be extremely difficult. But i think what we want after maduro the reason we put forward the framework to show this is how we see it play out. And in every possible way directly and indirectly we try to do that. In your communications as well and also to say that there is no substitute for keeping the pressure on who have we not reached out to who should we go back to again . Because we want the policy to work to restore democracy to venezuela or to help them through a democracy of their own country. And to be actively engaged with Civil Society groups to raise awareness of the real life situation on the ground so everyone throughout venezuela can have access to that information we know the regime doesnt want that information to get out and as we break through we are very proud of the work were doing to increase access to information including those in different security sectors. Thank you very much for your service. This is a hearing to enlighten americans to where we are during these difficult issues and these discussions of the problems that we face into what we all want to see done that record will remain open until thursday please respond promptly as possible to questions raised and we have discussions and we ask you for the record to do that as promptly as possible. We stand adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]