Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth Wes Moore 20240712

A novel. His first book calm out in 2010 came out in 2010, called the other wes moore, and then his book the work came out in 2016, and his most recent book is about a baltimore during the arrest and death of freddie gray. It just came out, five days, what that is called. But in your book, the work, wesley omari moore, you write that the military saved your life. What do you mean byy that . Guest well, i think the military played an incredibly Important Role in my life where, you know, some of the most important times of my life if not when i was wearing a suit, not when i was wearing a tshirt or jeans, but when i was wearing the uniform of this country. I was first introduced to the military system is, actually, when i was about 13 years old. I was actually sent to military school. I hadar a mandatory year in military school, and it was, i got some issues, some challenges, and when i was younger, and my mom had threatened me to send me to military school ever since i was 8 years old. Every year it was im going to send you away, im going to send you a away. The first time i felt handcuffs to my wrists was when i was 11yearold. My mother noticed i was intentionally hurtingng people that truly loved me so i could impress people. One day she she said, im going to send you to military school. And, honestly, i thought that she was kidding or exaggerating xxa finally i realized she wasn, and i hated every minute of it when i first started. I remember that first, you know, those first days there i ran away multiple times, i ran away five times in the first four ddays of military school. I also noticed that the longer i stayed, i began to fully iunderstand what it was that ty were trying to teach me and also what it was by e mom was trying to teach me. Can and the t fact that we did live in an interconnected environment, anid interconnected community, you know, and how everybodyte was doing in my unit mattered to how my if unit as a whole was doing. And w so when i actually finishd high school and i had a chance to go on, i decided that the thing that i actually wanted to do, the thing i wanted to pend my life on, it was i wanted to lead soldiers. And so thats when i made the decision that i wanted to join the army. So for me, the decision to go into the army was both a continuation of the fact that, you know, id had this level of service, both the fact that they were going to help pay for college, that was very helpful, but there was also this idea that i felt a debt of gratitude because i felt it was like the introduction of that at adu reay crucial time in my life that reallyly helped make a lot of difference that ended up happening in the life that i was living. Host is so what was your role in the 82nd airborne . Guest i was, is so i was a paratrooper with the 82nd airborne division, and i had a few different roles, but my final role in afghanistan, i was the director of operations. So thats a long way of saying that everything that we add had in terms of information ops, psych ops, psychological operations that we had, our entire area of operations which was what they called which is regional command east, the entire Eastern Region of afghanistan where afghanistan and pakistan border each other, i was the director of operations for that. So at the time when i was, you know, my last assignment when i was leaving afghanistan, we had about 1700 paratroopers that were under our command that we were responsible, that we were responsible for. So it was an amazing and an aweinspiring experience. Host wes moore, how had you changed after that first year in military school . As a, what, a 12yearold . Guest yeah, 13 years old. I would say the big thing that changed for me was there was this instructional leadership. What that means, what it meant and the role that it played in my life where i felt like, you know, military school gave me a chance to, in a way, it was a remake of identity that was important. There was a chance for me to rethink my role and my space within society. But also i think some of the other bigger things that happened was there was this very intentional introduction of leadership that matters. You know, sometimes when people say about military school they say, well, or the military, they need discipline. You know, theyll do pushups and theyll wake up early. And the reality is you are going to do pushups, you are going the wake up early. All those things are recall, all those things are true. But thats not what made the experience useful for me, right in the thing that made the experience useful for me was tthis introduction to leadersh. And it was this idea that they are very much going to introduce you to leadership early and in a very deliberate way where theyre going to put you in charge of something. After the initial basic training or police system, whatever it is, theyre going to put you in charge of something relatively early and relatively small. And its not because thats what your task is, its because they want you to get a taste. So theyre going to put you in charge of a hallway and theyll say, okay, youre in charge of this hallway, or youre in charge of the o dumpsters, whatever. If its clean, well congratulate you. If its dirty, then lord help you. And once they notice youre doing a good job at that, youll be promoted and move on to the next thing. Maybe youll have a couple cadets or soldiers under your command, and then you move up, you move up. Theres this graduated sense of responsibility about the way they try to teach you leadership frameworks that i think are not only useful and important for me, but also it was something that really gave me a taste of what was actually important. So like i knew going in that leading people was important to me. I knew going in that whether it was in the case of leading cadets or leading soldiers or i think about the work that we do now, being able to be part of that d process, being able to be the person who can, you know, who can help shape the direction of organizations, thats something that became really important in my development. Andng i think both the framewors for what it meant how to do it, but then also the introduction that was necessity in my life was something that the military helped to foster. Host wes moore, how did you become a Rhodes Scholar . Guest truth is, is thatre tt i actually think about that experience quite a bit because the first time i had a real conversation about the Rhodes Scholarship was actually when i was interning with the mayor of baltimore. Expect mayor of baltimore at the time was a gentleman named kurt shmoke, and it was the day of my internship, and he called me into his office. I think i i have the picture up there, it sits right in my office. And in that picture hes standing this, and hes pointing towards a picture on his wall. And understand, he was not the type of guy that had, you know, camera people following him around all the time. Thats not what he did. But on that day, on the final day of my internship kurt schmoke called me in, and he said have you thought about the Rhodes Scholarship . He knew about my grades. I told him i thought i had heard about it, but i hadnt thought about it. The thing that hes pointing at is his rhodes class and where he was in his picture. That was the moment when he first told me about the Rhodes Scholarship and that i should consider it. He also gave me instructions on people i should talk to about it, and i did just that. I went and talked to certain people, i had people help me with mys says and mys says and how do i express my lifes journey in a thousand words for the Rhodes Scholarship application. And i love that story. Its really important because right there in my office is a picture of my rhodes class. And im very clear that that picture would have never happened if that picture didnt happen. And so it was an experience that i will never forget, one where, you know, literally i think our plane flew off less than two weeks after 9 11 where, you know, the nation expect world had just changed immeasure by at the same time that i was having this experience. It was shaped very much so by 9 11. It was a chance to Study International relations in a place where i was one of only a few americans studying it and getting a chance to truly Study International relations with people in your class who were from brazil, china, nigeria and argentina, you know . Getting a chance to really understand and see how all these dynamics take place among some really remarkable people, people who have become some of my best friends. It was a pretty special experience, and i e give a lot of thanks to kurt schmoke and many others who really helped to light that path for me and helped me to realize that it actually could be real. Host whats your view about money from the cecil rhodes foundation, and what did you tell the overview board . Guest yeah. You know, one of the last questions, the last question they asked me in my interview was because i spent time in south africa. Im also africanamerican, i knowow our history in this couny reallyn well. And one of the last questions that i was asked, in fact, by the person who was the chairman of the board, he said, listen, you, youve been to south africa, youre africanamerican. How can you accept cecil rhodes money knowing the history, knowing howow he made it and knowing the lives that were lost in order for him to make that money . Iand i thought about it and i paused and i said, you know, i know a few things for sure. One was that when cecil rhodes was creating this scholarship, he did not have me in mind, to be sitting here as a finalist for this scholarship money. And he is probably turning in his grave repeatedly knowing that i am here as a finalist for his scholarship. The other thing that i and that does show me what progress means and progress looks like. The fact that something that was not at all intended for me, that i have an opportunity to not only stand here and utilize it, but then also have a real obligation to make sure youre doing something with it to better yourself. And the other thing that i do know is that, that it was my ancestors who fought and who bled and who built and who were able to build in a way that created ail pathway for me to be in that seat at that moment, who were able to sacrifice and to dream for a world that they didnt see, but to dream and fight for one that hopefully one day that i would see. And for me to have the opportunity then to be there in that seat, for me to have an opportunity too then take the privilege of that seat to then go out and as a Rhodes Scholar fight the worlds fight, i felt it would be disrespectful to them not to. And so understanding that when youre particularly looking at history of cecil rhodes, looking at the history of its not even just south africa, but its the entire Southern Africa region and the damage that he did to the people there for his own perm benefit to the point personal benefit to the point that at that time he was the wealthiest man inn the world, its not lost on me. So its also not lost on me the obligation that in now have to use the benefits that were fought long and hard for me to be able to have, to use that now to make sure that we can create a more just and a more fair world. Host whered you grow up . Guest i spent part of my childhood growing up in maryland, part of my childhood growing up in the bronx. You know, i call really two places, you know, home. One is baltimore. Actually, where i live now, i was born a little off from baltimore, closer to the d. C. Area. And then new york where with i e spent a lot of my childhood after my dad died. And so my dad was a radio personality down in baltimore and the d. C. Area, and one day he was complaining about his throat and was saying how his throat was bothering him really to the point he couldnt breathe. He went to the hospital the next day. And as he went to the hospital, you know, he was wearing had an uneven beard, and a lot of assumptions were made about my dad when he walked into that hospital that day looking for help. When my mom final arely made it to the hospital to join him, they asked her questions like is your husband prone to exaggeration. And they gave him instructions toom go home and rest, and if it got worse, then to come back. Finish and five hours after they released him, he died. And thats when we were living down in maryland. My mother had a really difficult time with the transition at that point and finally called up her parents, my grandparents, who were living in the bronx. My grandfather was a minister in the south bronx, and my grandmother was a schoolteacher in the south bronx. And theird house was barely big enough for them, but they figured out a way to make it big enough for all of us, and is so we ended up moving up there. And then at that point after moving up there, thats where i spent a good six, seven years of my childhood before at the end i was going to military school in pennsylvania. So a lot of my childhood was a lot of moving around. But the thing that i knew is that no matter where we moved to, ihe had a remarkable, loving family who i was blessed to be able to say, you know, hey, with what they had, they really tried to provide fored us as best as they could. And i, you know, its something growing up. T host and from your first book, the other wes moore, my father was dead five hours after having been released from the hospital with the simple instructions to get some sleep. Same hospital was now preparing to send is his body to the morgue. My father had entered the seeking help, but his face was unshaven, his clothes disheveled, his name unfamiliar, his address not in an affluent area. The hospital looked at him askance and fault pelted him with ridiculous questions and basically told him to fend for himself. Now my mother had to plan his funeral. Why do m you think those assumptions were made . Guest race. Actually, i think its, its really one of the heartbreaking things, you know, and i think about it a lot both with, you know, where we are now and also when people say, well, you know, at what point in your life did you know or did you understand the impact of race in the world. And as you just listed out, it was at its earliest point that people were treated differently. And when i think about the many systems that we have in place in our society whether it is our health care system, whether it is our education system, whether its talking about Environmental Justice or educational cuts dis, its impossible to talk about thesee things without understanding the role that race plays. Its impossible to understand these things without understanding thehe role that systemic racism plays. Becauses it is not lost because it is not lost on me and will never be lost on me the fact that had those factors been different that had been mentioned before, there would have been the benefit of the doubt been given. Had the benefit of the doubt been given, we would not have had the same type of results. And this is something that i know s is not just, you know, is not just anecdotal. Theres data that continues to reinforce the factat that race s one of the most predictable, you know, indicators for lifes outcomes across several areas, across life expectancy, across education, across, across maternal mortality, across mental and physical health. And so i so the thing that made that real in my case, in the case of my father, in the case of thinking about my Family History this idea that i know hiits inescapable to not understand and embrace the impact of race. Host who was the other wes moore . Guest the other wes moore is a man, young man who i heard about actually at the same time i was getting ready to head off to england. And as the baltimore sun, which is my hometown paper, was writing an article about this local kid who had just received this Rhodes Scholarship. And they were writing about my background, my childhood, they were writing about the fact that just ten years ago i add had handcuffs on my wrists, and now ten years later i was getting ready to head off to england on a full scholarship and, you know, what that journey was like in that period. But around the same time, they were alsoam writing about an ard Jewelry Store robbery, a botched robbery, where four guys came to a Jewelry Store. And when the first two guys went in, they had guns, and they got everybody on the ground. And then the next two guys walk into the Jewelry Store. When they walk into the store the, they pulled out mallets. And one guy with a gun, one guy with a mall lent went to left, the other two went to the right, and the ones with the gun were keeping everybody on the ground, and the other ones with mallets were smashing out jewelry and taking out watches and rings and necklaces. And they got about 400,000 worth of jewelry that day, and all four of them ran outside to the awe jays sent parking lot. One of the people that was in the inside the store that day was an offduty Police Officer who was moonlighting as a security guard, and he was a, he was a 13year veteran for the Baltimore Police force. He was a threetime recipient of Police Officer of the year. He was also a father of five who just had triplets. And thend reason he was working that day was because it was his day off from the police force, and he took on a second job the make exa that money for his fam extra money for his family. And when he ended up when they left the store, he got up off thehe ground, and he drew hs weapon, and he ran outside to see if he could stop the guys from getting away. And when he ran outside, he started kneeling next to cars and vehicles to give himself cover. He didnt realize that one of the vehicles h that he was kneeling next to was one of the vehicles the guys were in. And a window rolled down, and he was shot three times at pointblank range, s and he was killed. And there ended up being a National Manhunt for those four guys. In 12 days all four guy were caught, and one of the people that the police were looking for was a guy whose name was also wes moore. And the more i learned about this crime, the more i learned about this tragedy, often times through newspaper articles, the more i knew there were questions i wanted to ask, and wes was the only one who could answer. So one day i just decided to write him a note. And the first note that i wrote him was, hey, wes, my name is wes, heres how i heard about you. And i wrote to Correctional Institution where i knew thats where he was at the time and still is to this day. And he, about a month later i got a letter back from jesup Correctional Institution, from wes moore. And that one letter was fascinating to me, all of his answers, everything he was alluding to. And then that one letter turned into dozens of letters, and letters turned into dozens of visits. I have now known wes moore for over 17 years, he is in year 20 of his life sentence. Him, his older brother and two other guys were there the day of the crime. So thats who he was, and that initial letter really turned into something that changed the way that i thought about the world. Because it really did help to serve as an important reminder of how thin that line between our life and someone elses life, you know . The chilling truth that his story could have been mine. And the tragedy is that my story could have been his. And how thin those differences are, how thin that Decision Making is, how, how sometimes its about these small decisions that we make that we sometimes accidentally fall into, sometimes its decision that are made for us, sometimes its a lack of options that we have for the decisions that we make. But how as a society we cannot be so quick to either congratulate or castigate unless were actually willinggr to dig into peoples stories, unless were actually willing to understand the things that make our stories rich and that make themha real. And how to understand that the neighborhoods that we were growing up in expect fact that expect fact that for far too many of our children, were screaming to them about what we want from them and what we expect from them. And i remember wes once said to me, we were talking about baltimore, and the fact that when he got picked up, we were living blocks away from each other in baltimore the last time. And he said e to me and i asked him, i said, do you think were products of our environment, talkingf about baltimore x. He then said to me, actually, i think were products of our expectations. And as soon as he said that to me, i thought to myself, he is absolutely right. We werent products of our environments, we were products of our expectations, and as someone once said to me, its a real shame you lived up to your expectations and wes did. And i said, actually, the real shame is that we both did. Because in many ways, thats exactly how we have structured a societal system, where people are continually living up to their expectations. So then the question becomes what expectations do we actually have. Host and you quote the other wes moore talking to you in your first book, the other wes moore, from everything you told me, both of us did some pretty wrong tough when we were younger, and both of us had Second Chances. But if the situation or the context where the decision dont change, then the Second Chances dont mean too much. Guest thats right. And also, you know, it is interesting to see who gets Second Chances and for what. Right . And and i think thats the thing that was important for me to be able to appreciate and to understand and also to be able to shower, that every one to share. Every one of us needs Second Chances. I tell people all the time where even to this day my days now are two steps forward and one step back. I mean, thats, and thats now. So the idea of needing Second Chances or whatever is thats a very, that is a very humanistic need that will consistently be there. But what were not structured to do as a society is to have any form of parity or equal apportionment of what exactly that means. Right now we till know, and we still know, and you can look at data that reinforces it from every single measure, from our criminal justice system, our educational system that we have massive disparities when it comes to everything from race and class about how these Second Chances are actually allocated. And what we actually get Second Chances for. The fact is when we have people who are living in poverty, its like when people say how does poverty show itself, the answer is in every way. Its the air that people are drinking the air theyre breathing, the water theyre drinking, its how their beliefs,ri its what transportation assets you have around you x. Is so, unfortunately, if youre creating this concentrated level of poverty and injustice that exists and often times a colorcoded poverty that exists, we also know that this idea behind secondst chances somethig that becomes fleeting. And so this is, so actually that experience in getting to speak with, getting to know wes and really being able to build few friendship with wes and, frankly, something that has continued on long after the book. I knoww people have asked, like, why are you still in touch with him, dont you know what hes in prison for, and my answer is respectfully, you know, i know why hes there, and i dont need anybody to remind me. But the thing that i do know is this, that even our worst decisions dont separate us from the circle of humanity. And i also know this, if were not willing to learn these lessons and to learn why Second Chances, how theyre a awe portioned, what theyreon suppod tow mean, are we even giving people an opportunity to make them mean something, that is beething thats going to crucial about how we think about the world and how we think about our place in it. Host what did he think about you telling his story . Guest i remember, wes one of the w first people i went to whn i started with the idea. I are a friend, i woman named Carrie Williams whos a remarkable writer and, i mean, shes like a real writer. She puts out a lot of books, and shes incredibly talented. But she would always ask about wes. Because i knew wes for years before the idea for this book came about. Shed also ask, hows wes doing . Thank you for the update. One day she said, you know, i really think you should write about this. I think thereshi a bigger story to be told here. And i told her, i was like listen, carrie, im not that interested in writing a book, i dont have time to write a book, i dont want to dig that deeply into his life, i honestly dont want to dig that deeply into my own. And i went to go talk to wes about it, and i said, you know, ive been approached about actually writing a story on our lives and our relationship, what do you think . And he immediately said to me, i think you should do it x. And he said two things that have always tuck with me. He said, listen, ive wasted every opportunity that i had in life, and im going to die in here. And if you can do something to help people understand the consequences for their decisions but also do something to help people understand the neighborhoods that u these decisions are being made in, then youou should do it. And b that really then became te entire fired and focus behind doing this project, was that i wanted people to understand not just the consequences of the decisions that people are making, but also i wanted people to understandeo the context of e decisions that people are making in the neighborhoods theyre making them in. You know, and its something where i remember right after, you know, soon after the book was published my editor called me up and said, listen, great news. We just received record from Nick Christophe that he wanted to do an oped as a bay us for the and Nick Christophe is a fantastic writer, best selling author, progressive and a brilliant guy. And hee writes this remarkable oped where he basically says i really enjoyed this book because i thought it was a great examination of race and class in our society. About three weeks later, my editor says we just received word that michael girlsen, a former speech writer for president bush, writer for the washington post, brilliant guy but conservative. And he writes this oped where he says i e really enjoyed the other wes moore, and the bay us of it was it was a great examination of personal responsibility and that sort of thing. Two people whoho liked it for to completely different reasons. And i remembere my wife asked me so who do you think is right in and i said, honestly, i think theyre both right, right in because you cant right . Because you cant talk about societal responsibility without understanding at the end of the day all these things are still individual choice. And individuals will be held to account for their choices either good orr bad. However, you cannot talk about individual choice without understanding that these individual choices are being made many a societal context. And that societal context does influence the type of choices that people are making. And so all of those things really help to tie in as to how i came to the best story was not really just illuminating, really illuminating for me, but also just very humbling to see the way, you know, that i feel that its translated kind of across communities, across, across wealth lines to really help people see and understand these conditions that we are canning people to exist in asking people to exist in, we really have made sort of a devils bargain where we are asking ourselves every single day how much pain are we willing to tolerate in other peoples lives. How much pain are we willing to tolerate in our neighbors. And as long as it doesnt impact us too much. Andt thats that double bargain that i think that is eating away at all of our collective souls every single day whether we realize it or not. Host and thanks for joininge us on booktv. This is our monthly in Depth Program where we have one author on to discuss his or her body of work and take your calls. This month is author, veteran, Rhodes Scholar, former investment banker, wes moore. Husband book, the other wes mere, came out in moore, came out in 2010. His book, the work, came out in 2015. His most recent book, which we havent discussed yet, is five days the fiery reckoning of an American City. Hes also written discovering wes moore, a young adult take on the other wes moore and a novel called this withdraw home way home, which came out in 2016. Heres how you can participate in our conversation with with wes moore. You can call in, number one. 202 is the lawyer code, 748, 8200 if you hiv in the east and central time zones live. 2027488201 iso for those of yu in the mountain and pacific time zones. You canif also text a question r comment to wes moore this way, 2027488903. And if you could make sure to get that that correct so we dont send texts out to anybody but ourselves here. 2027488903. Now, we also have several social media sites where you can twitter, facebook, instagram. Just remember booktv is our handle, and you can go to those sites. One other way of contacting us, booktv cspan. Org via i a mail. T and well begin via email. And well begin talking those calls and questions in just a few minutes. Wes moore, whats the visitation process like to get into jesup . The prison in maryland . Guest well, its changed now because there is up up in due there is none due to covid19. Wes has not been allowed to have visitors in months, and to be honest, im not sure, you know, when we see that actually being lifted. In fact, right now its pretty restricted and not just access, but even amongst people who are in jesup where theyre pretty locked in now, you know, for 23 hours in their own individual cells due to covid19. Prior to that though, its a pretty onerous process. And honestly, its an onerous process, very intentionally so, because its not like theres a heavy encouragement for people to be able to have outside communication of people from your family or friends come visit. Often times you look at situations where these facilities are nowhere near where the majority of people who are being housed there actually live, so its not an easy process for people to be able to go visit. And then once you do, it is really a pretty allday process that it takes to go in and go do a visit. There is no kind of quick popins, obviously. So you will go in and go through your g searches, multiple surgeries, and then you could wait for searches, and then you couldou wait for hours befoe you get a chance to see that person. And whenn you do get a chance to see them, its a pretty restricted time period that youre able to interact. So for a lot of people, part of the complication of staying in touch is the simple fact that its not an easy process to stay in touch. Even telephonic communications, we still have policies that exist in this country that are actually charging, you know, an exorbitant amount of money, but charging individuals to be able to stay in touch with their family members despite the fact that the vast majority of people who are currently incarcerated will be coming home and despite the fact that all data continuing to show that if a person can keep contact with family and while they have to be incarcerated, that they have a much better chance of reentry back into society and a stable and safe reentry back into society. Because the vast majority of people will be coming home. The vast majority of people are not therehe for life sentences r long sentences, the vast majority of people will be reentering our society. And so the fact that we do make so complicated for people to not just stay in touch, but also to makera that transition back, its really benefiting nobody. Because, again, these are all peoplees who will be returning back to our society at some point. Host can you pip point the point in your pinpoint the point in your life where you could see yourself as the other wes moores cell mate . Guest oh, absolutely. I think that one of the things that really got me about this whole process was how in many ways arbitrary and in many ways incredibly deliberate the way that we have structured this entire framework is. Where, you know, i remember being 11, the first time that i felt handcuffs on few wrist, i remember on my wrist, i remember having at that point no Real Authority or say as to how the next phase of my life was going to go, you know . I remember this idea of watching friends being picked up or bagged up or whatever for a collection of different things. And is so youou see how, you see how incredibly fickle but also at the same time when it comes to many, you a know, many communities that were um above riched communities impoverished communities, communities below the poverty line, how there was w a delibere sense and unfair measures when it came to policing. And, frankly, it was something that was very unfair for the officers who were then forced to patrol these areas. And is so i, you know, you absolutely see how thin that line really is. And i know that one of the things that, you know, i have to credit, you know, where i am now is both the fact that i i always say i think one of the greatest gifts that god gave me was the fact that he [inaudible] to my mother, and i will always be grateful for that. Also other family members, mentors andso coaches, that type of thing. But i i know theres also one thing that kind of served as an initial prerequisite x thats luck. And luck shouldnt have to be a prerequisite in order to make it in our society. Not in a real meritocracy, right . And so i think one of the things that reallyoc fuels so much of w i think about just both our relationships, but then also how i think about the work that ive been asked to do and will continue to do on this planet, its eliminating luck as a prerequisite in order for people to make it. And its understanding our own larger, you know, the larger conversation that we all must have in order foron us to be abe to do that. And so i absolutely, i absolutely cannot only imagine it, but the thing i spent more time thinking about had it not been for a series of decisions some of which wes had nothing to do with that i dont see a scenario why wes should not be right here next to me contributing. But thats e the dynamic. Thats the challenge that i think we have. Host why did youen move back to baltimore . Guest you know, for a few different reasons, you know . After i came back from afghanistan, i had a chance to work in washington. And i worked as a white house fellow which is a yearlong nonpolitical, nonpartisan fellowship. You work for senior advisers. It was an amazing experience. And then i tarted working in finance. And i was working in finance there and doing well and id been promoted a couple times and kind of, you know, really finding a real role in the world of finance. And, you know, and the way my mind work, my mind is actually more a quantitative mind than qualitative mind. Numbers come easier to me than words, which is kind of ironic that i decided to become an author. But i also knew it wasnt fulfilling. I also knew that something was really missing. I knew that i wanted to spend my time being able to really focus on the things that made my heartbeat a little bit faster x that wasnt finance. Out wasnt, it wasnt banking. And so i remember actually going and having a conversation with my old boss, a gentleman named rick wire from citigroup, and i said i think i want to do something different. And he said to me, you know, you have to understand, this is not like, you know, this is not where you can hop out and hop back in, you know, this tread mill kind of keeps moving, so if you make a decision, its a pretty permanent decision. And i till thought it was i still thought it was the right thing to do. And then he said, i get it, and he said, youre ready. And so thats when i then decided that part of my journey meant moving back home. I love baltimore. I think its an amazing place filled with amazing people. Its quirky, its complicated, but its also a place where the story is still very much being written out now as we speak. You know, this is a city that used to be a city of chose to a Million People close to a Million People. Its now a city of less than 600,000. With the exception of cleveland and detroit, the city of baltimore has lost more citizens than any other major American City over this twodecadelong period. Its a city that the home of Thurgood Marshall and its the home of babe ruth. Its also theab home of redling and some of the most discriminatory policies, housing policies, transportation policy that this country has ever institutedded on us population. And particularly the black population. Its a place that is, you know, while at the same time we, you know, we s were celebrating thee rebirth of the Baltimore Orioles and this, you know, nice good streak run that the orioles were having at the same time we were celebrating the baltimore ravens, you know, bringing the title back home was around the same time that we also had and learned about the names of anthony anderson, chris brown and tyrone west and eventually freddie gray. So its a city that is, its still very much healing from its past. A city that is still very much trying to search and determine us own future. Its a place where i think people from baltimore take the fact that theyre from baltimore very seriously. Im still living down here and raising my family here, but i know people who have baltimore in their roots who are no longer here who are just as proud to be here as i am. But i also know that its a place where our story is being written as we speak. And the chance to actually be one of, you know, 600,000 authors of a pretty Great American story is exciting to me. And so when i thought about the place that i really, that for me embodied community, for me embodied ownership, for me then it became a pretty easy decision that our family was going to go back to baltimore. Host where were you living on saturday, april 12, 2015 . Guest living in baltimore. At the time. Host what happened that day . Guest im sorry . Host what happened that day . Guest that was the day that freddie gray made eye contact with police. And i say that because that was his crime, that he made eye contact with police and ranch its important for and ran. Its a crime in discuss at this pointly labeled high poverty areas where if you make eye contact with police and run, thats enough to trigger probable cause and you can then be chased and arrested. Had that been done in another neighborhood, had that been done in, you know, a neighborhood that was only a mile and a half to two miles away from where freddie gray was, he could have done the same exact thing, and he would have been going for a job. But he didnt. He did it in harlem park. And so when he made eye contact with the police, he ran, he was, you know, he was eventually arrested. And an hour after he was arrested, he was in a coe a ma. Coe e a ma. When he finally made it to the university of maryland medical center, it was deemed that he had three broken vertebrae and a crushed larynx and a crushed voicebox. And he never made it out of that coma. He never recovered from his injuries. He died a week later, and so he spent a coma trying to survive but eventually was not able to. And so that was the day that the world, first starting off with west baltimore and then eventually baltimore and then eventually the world, that was the day that the world would first learn of the name freddie gray. Host and from your book, five days the reckoning of an American City, you write there were reasons freddies death was different, that it so quickly turned boo a galvanizing moment ini stead of passing into painful silence like with others. Portions of freddie grays moments were caught on camera, capturing video of Police Encounters common place now, but 2015ies death in coincided with the emergence of smartphones and social media as tools of citizen journalists. Guest and it was, it was one of these things where i think i thought about what was the thing that made us even know who freddie gray was or what his name was. And you think about it where in theha two years before freddie gray, there wasnt just freddie gray, right . In the two years before there was anthony anderson, and there was tyrone west. Similar instance, similar situation w where you have an unequal distribution of force and a black man makes contact with police and loses his life. Right . And so when people say so what was different about freddie, why did freddie trigger this whole thing in a new type of way, and it was, its the two things that i think we cannot underestimate. One that it was caught on camera, unlike those of the other ones that i had named where thes idea of, you know, your word versus mine, marley when the particularly when the your world is someone who cannot [inaudible]an with themselves anymore becomes much more complicated when theres video footage, when we are watching it live, when were watching this live and someone is capturing what actually happened. The second piece that i think makes freddie grays story different is the context of when it happened and the fact that there was this group now called black lives matter that was able to respond, that was able to move. Andat so, you know, you watch ts dynamic where, you know, this organization, you know, was founded by three black women and was founded by three black women in response to what happened to trayvon martin. And this idea of saying, you know, we have to be able to remind this country that its not about black lives mattering more, but asking this country to aremember that they even for m, and you cannot take out our lives [inaudible] and so you now saw this thing that went from a hashtag to now becoming something that was becoming and had become a Global Movement that could move and mobilize quickly in different areas. And is so it was not just about, you know, how are we positioning these things when these things happen and having in individual areas or individual families than having to fend for themselves, but it was about how could we put a real level of attention and focus when these things continue to happen in our community. And so w for freddie gray, it ws the fact that we now had camera footage of him in his last moments, of him, you know, being dragged, literally because he wasnt helping, was being dragged into the back of a polices van. And we also had this movement called black lives matter that were focused on making sure that we dont just know the names, right . That we dont just understand the names Michael Brown and fu land doe castille and Philando Castile low and sandra brandt, and Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery and freddie gray, that we dont just know their names, but that we demand justice for the fact that we have to scream and chant their names x. So i think those were the big things we saw and some of the differences that we were able to see with freddie gray and his situation that we did not see with some of the others that were [inaudible] host back to five days, freddie gray and so many other boys like him grew up in the ditype of poverty that permeates everything. It was that poverty that raised the probability that freddie would be exactly where he was on april 12th, 2015, and then again on april 27th, 2015. In fact, the odds started being stacked against freddie generations before he was born. Guest its one of these things where, you know, when i hear people make arguments about how, you know, about freddie or that, you know, freddie was this or freddie was that or freddie was a thug who, you know, everybody the Police Officers knew his name. We even had elected officials who, and this is the most hearting breaking thing about it, these are elected officials whose job it actually is to protect him. You know . People who sometimes you have to remind them that freddie was your constituent too. But the its also important for people to understand freddie gray not just in his death, but freddie gray in his life. Because oftentimeses part of the conversation that took place was very muchbe about what happenedo freddie and how did freddie die and that type of thing, and those are all really important questions, all things that we have to be able to contend with, all things we have to be able to address and think through as a society, understanding what happened to him on the day that he died and what led him to having to be in a coma for an entire week. But its also really important that we understand the tragedy of his life. Its also really important that we understand the tragedy of how freddie gray existed in the first 25 years. Because this was a young man who was born underweight, premature and addicted to heroin. His mother who battled a addiction for much of her life, he never made it to high school, she could not read nor if write. Nor write. When him and his 2001 sister finally gaped enough weight to gained enough weight to leave the hospital, they moved ctinto a Housing Project on norh carriageim street. This Housing Project that they moved into, that along with 480 other home were actually cited in a civil lawsuit in 2009 because the endemic level of lead inside of the homes they were living in. We have known that lead a neurotoxin for over a century in this country. The cdc indicates that if a person has six microbes of lead, that that person will have cognitive damage for the remainder of their life, and freddie gray had 36. So this was a young man who was born premature, underweight, addicted to heroin and head poisoned. Lead poisoned. And by that time in his life, hes 2 years old. I mean, freddie gray never had a chance. We never gave freddie gray a ychance. And so when you look at the fact that his last recorded day in school was when he was in the tenth grade and he was, you know, almost 19 years old, when you look at the fact that he had been in special education chats his entire classes his entire educational career because of the lead poisoning and asking teachers tor perform tasks to make up for things that, frankly, a poisoning of his neurological system that none of them had anything to do with. But the fact that we continued to do that and at every single interaction with the various systems within freddies life whether it was, you know, not just policing, but also educational system andnd health system, allon this, and every single time that those systems touched freddie gray, it wasnt just that they could not help him, but that in many ways they were each doing in their own individual ways immeasurable damage to him. And thats the thing that i think we as a larger society, as a larger brain, you know, have to also really contend with, you know . Is that it is that hard truth that every system that touch fred duhs life freddies life, it was the fact that freddie could have died a hundred time before he made eye contact with the police five years ago. And it was the fact that, arguably, the most peaceful week in freddies life was the week he was in a coma. Because at least that week he was surrounded by doctors and nurses. At least that week he was surrounded by lawyers and activists. At least that week he was, there was a citity who knew his name a city who knew his name, there was aas city who cad whether he lived or died. Name one week in the 25 years prior that that was the case. And so we have to be able to seek and demand justice, and and its not just a justice of what happened to him that day, but it isis a justice and that cant be, that cannot be excluded either, but it is a justice that is really focused on everything from Environmental Justice and educational justice and Health Justice and all the other justice mechanisms that, frankly, completely lewded freddie for husband eluded freddie for his entire life. Host lets hear from our callers. Wes moore is our guest, and nicole calling in from fort lauderdale. Hi, nicole, youre on the air. Caller thank you very much for taking my call. I want the say, mr. Moore, that im very impressed with the way that you speak and with your articulation. What im calling about is i was born in 1970 into a black middle class in southern new jersey, black middle class family, and getting aey good education was something that was really, really paramount in our family. And we were very luck cu, few sister and i lucky, my for and i, to be able to go to Parochial School which i think made a huge difference in our lives. And few family also made sure that we were exposed to many things such as classical literature, classal music, the arts, theater, jazz with, even science programs on pbs that my dad made us watch. So few question to you is, what can be done to put experiences such like what i had into the lives of poor black kids in poor neighborhoods . You know, maybe scholarships or money to be raised for programs, science programs and things could be brought into the schools. Host nicole, thank you. Wes moore . Guest thank you for that question. Its, so i love the frame of your question too because really what youre asking me is how do we make education really an allencompassing experience for our students that is not just about the reading expect writing and the iowa rate me tick, its not just about the qualifications that were putting in, but how do we make it a truly 40 list you can experiencece that promotes this idea of Lifelong Learning and promotes this idea of exploration that a makes life interesting. And so i love the. Frame that yu are approaching. Ira also know that this right nw in what were seeing, particularly kind of, you know, it was you know, both precovid19 but also especially postcovid e 19 where we have watched these educational divides absolutely explode, where, you know, if you think about the thing we spend a lot of our time on, focusing on thing like how do you make sure the kids are focusing on school prepared to hearn, that theyre focusing on the thing that are going to be able to help them go on the proper pathway, elementary and prek and kindergarten teachers you saw what is it you need, oftentimeses the answer is a classroom of kids ready to go, because if i teach too fast, or ill lose the kids that are slow. How do we come up with that framework . Its ake very big deal for our students because if theyre not in the classroom, they cant learn. And the thirdrd thing is we know theres going to be Summer Learning loss. We know a gap exists between june and september for many students who are not able to mechanisms during the summer to keep Brain Development going. Welsh what happens in a situation like a you where we he students who have not been in a fulltime classroom since february, and a quarter of kids have not even logged on consistently during this time of virtual education. And so we really this actually gives us a really important opportunity to rethink education in a different kind of way. That does that, we action make it a part of our core. How can we think about things like rethinking of school year or a school day . How can we go to the process of thinking it is absolutely criminal that we still do not have students do not have both tablets and mechanisms to do all the proper things will help with protection really virtual learning. Consistent wifi and highspeed internet that will help keep them aboveboard. We are not adopting curriculum from new and ways to support her students. If you like your question is powerful. Because it does actually forecast, nicole, to think through how can we use this moment so that all ofca the things that you got, all the things i got when teachers when i had an instructor who actually took me to help me understand how the Constitutional Congress works to explain that to me or we try to understand the things that made life so interesting and help guide the things to focus on for itha hackley make that a part of our core focus for all of our students . And particularly at a time when Everything Else on the educational framework being abetted. That becomes a bigger vision but it has to be done for going to address this. Guest ,. Nicole sequestered maybe think about how she discussed her parents and their activism in p her education pretty great mother. Guest i think we have to under stand that we are absolutely right parents and guardians they are an important and crucial role in the role they play in the childs educational aspirations. I am not at all lost on me and the fact that mother was a very active parent to what her kids were learning. I also know kids were coming up in situations where their parents dont necessarily, that isnt necessarily how their parents have approached it. But we cannot punish them for that. That we then have to think about systems and how we come up with structures that even if thats not subbing that child is getting innately, is still thumping that child is feeling structurally. I think about it where we talk about parents they often time can be the blame game that takes place for parents. Like it is the parents fault. I have been working with students and families no for decades. And heres the thing i can tie with the real deal of certainty. The vast majority of parents its not that they dont care. Its that for a lot of parents either they dont know, or for a lot of parents its really hard because its really complicated and challenging when you are trying to work three different jobs that are taking up 14 hours of your day still living below the poverty line because none of those paid in figure two above the poverty line i got my was fortunate my mother got her first job he gave a reliable hours when i was 14 not only was she helping to raise us but she was living with my grandpa into helping withas the. My mom will always credit them and save had not been for them thought the parents dont care about for many parents they dont know. Or for many parents they just dont have the resources. And so with that, how we make sure what nicole got, how to make sure that what i got, how do we institutionalize that . How do we institutionalize it to make sure itak is not grades of your mom or your grandparents not the grace of their situatio situation, that allows you to have a pathway. Thats the grace of the fact that you are a member and a valued member of our society. Therefore our society should be thinking about how you can inate the infrastructuresth place better just giving kids a chance. That are creating a platform or opportunity and ambition can actually meet each other. Because we dont have that now. We have a framework thats based on luck. Having the infrastructure or support for frankly i know i didnt ask for b but i know i was blessed to receive. That cant be enough. And that is how i think in this moment how we should be thinking about the ways we are going to reshape and rethink all of this. You cant get through on the phone lines and soap a question or comment will scroll through our social media sites including our text number. When the real marilyn good afternoon you are on with author wes moore. Caller hello mr. Westmore. Look, i read enthusiastically perhaps the last chapter. It says love comes into everything luck. I dont see how you eliminate luck from the world luck from humansns. Luck comes into everything. When you say conditions, i approve you one 100 . But, you seem to be going to have to have a Perfect World in order for a person to have the option of doing the right thing. I think that is a little far out. Ive got something to say about freddie gray. You were wrong when you say the police had the probable cause to arrest him. They did not. There was no crime by him or anybody else. They were doing their sweet thing, that they were doing. Forget about his social problems, all the problems he had, if he ran because he had a hot date, they had no right to arrest him. One other thing about luck. Bad luck, cry heard a good citizen called the police he sees in walmart he sees a young man with a 22 he appears to be holding what appears to be in ak 47 for the clerk is not there. There are no people around there anywhere. He tells the police it looks like weve got a mad gunman. Looks like hes ran people are shot people, you better get over there and check it out. They come to the store. The clerk who is back they getting the boy his receipt, he is not there. And they come in, they pulled their guns, and the gentleman, the young black kid thanks obviously these white cops think im stealing this gun. He goes for his wallet is going to show them ive got the receipts i paid for the gun. See what what evening to do do to bring us to a conclusion . Caller they shoot him. It was a db facsimile of an ak47. That is ath tragedy. But that was bad luck. Host could you very briefly give us your give us a quick glance in your life story . I was born in north carolina. Sort of rough down there. One parent household. I graduated high school. I was in the military during vietnam, so veteran through during vietnam. I would to morgan state, i thereafter, after extent that social services, went to university of law school. I got into law school. I passed the bar, i was with the Public Defenders Office at approximately ten years. Went to the office of the public offender until 2011 june the 30th of 2011 i retire. Where you have to leave it there. Thank you for that information. First, some of the work i did even prior to the work were doing now we lots should initiative which is students in new directions or work with juveniles,s, juvenile offenders in the officee of the public defender that was a huge part so thank you for that. Thank you for the lifetime youve given. You bring up an important point about the conditions have to be perfect. For people to be able to make it through. Gh the obvious answer is no. But, the thing we also know as the conditions also cannot be stacked against you k either. Or if you look at the statistics and dynamics that exist now, i was talk about how College Degree is a target. Thats one of things went all her students to be able to accomplish. The college increases life time earnings of nearly 1 million for yet Research Also shows a black College Graduates on average make less than White College l dropouts. For look up new york for exampl example. Black new yorkers are two times more likely than their white counterparts. That 70 of our low age workers that are called to be on the frontline during covid19 of the people of color. The point that you make that i want to also push on is that when your talk about the conditions that are existing for people. We also cannot underestimate the role that race plays in that condition. I have a framework or we say f everyone is willing to work hard and do their task, then they should have the opportunity to succeed all that is right and all that is true. But the reality is were still still making the curve, making that curve for many people and almost intentionally so intentionally soap making and unnecessarily high. And so that is the thing that we, you, i, all of us want to battle against and should be battling against. I dont think it is be perfect , but needs to be fair and right now it is not fair. Sue and brian, montgomery, alabama please go ahead with your question or comment. Thank you for taking my call. Host brian are you with this . Caller okay. I am enjoying the conversation. I just wanted to just make a comment about the context he said society contexts. We look at the societal context and you mentioned about freddie gray. But she did as you demonstrated that black lives matter when you do that. You are demonstrating that black lives matter that is a normal thing. So how can we actually do better for the complex for everyone that is a societal context is that correct . Sue and mr. Moore . Switch a great question. And honestly think is interesting it goes back in some ways to nicoles question earlierr about how to be had context. I think one of the things wee have to do to add context is we as a larger we as a Large Society in a very difficult time doing with the issue of truth about this country. And i think because some people say that race is one of the trickiest issues in our society, i disagree. Its not one of the trickiest issues it is the trickiest. Its the trickiest anything about the history of this country. The fact and reality that this country was founded on a racial hierarchy. The fact that this country did happen was founded on with stolen land and was stolen labo labor. The fact that we have had a history of systemic challenges that did not end with slavery but immediately went into construction and massive incarceration. But now all of these things have provided a context that we have to be able to understand beautiful as they were a they were structured, they did not include everybody. You can see the collective movement toa this movement doctor king talked about the bending of the moral arc bends towards justice for they has to be an understanding of a couple different things. How and who was responsible for so much this country built sprayed in the moral bending towards justice it does not bend automatically. It bends because there are people who are pulling it towards justice. It might help fill some history. We talk about context, that means how do we address things like curriculum within our societyty going back to nicoles point about education. They only talk about the history of things, in the history of this country its important that context goes into our curriculum. Its important for people to understand one the most important things thatt happened to me was i began to appreciate, i began to better appreciate the history of this country, the richness of this country then began to understand that when people say how could you fight for this country how did you put your life on the line for this country, had a juicer with one of the o most elite military units in this country doing it proudly and no they say i would do it again if i had the opportunity to. And i would do it because i know i love this country. But loving this country doesnt mean lying about it. Loving this country means being able to understand what does make it so powerful in the first place. In the name such as baldwin and hughes and parks and carmichael. And name such as robeson, these are nays that are just as important to the framework and the build of our nations history is any other nays. And its important not just africanamerican children understandde that, but its important that all the children understand that. And all children understand the many, many people who have toiled to make this country better at every single turn. When we had a chance to make a decision that we move toward that in a very deliberate fashion because there were people who looked like every single for able to make fights and make progress and that my committee, my ancestor should not be eliminated or minimized in that conversation. The other thing i know when youre trying but context is really important question about context. It also means understanding of a history that the only time we have had major movements that have lasting Sustainable Impact is when it wasnt just thehe impacted community who was fighting for justice. Whether yourehe talking of the Civil Rights Movement with your time at the antiapartheid movement, part of the reason that was so effective as it was theres a point wasnt just black south africans who were standing up u and saying this is unjust. And theres no way we can allow a system like this to exist. Part of the reason with the movement for Marriage Equality was because just doesnt have to be that lgbtqi friends who were demanding more from and chanting that love isds m love. Part of the reason we are able to see movement now and im convinced will see movement now as we can add context but were seeing right now sometimes is notha as simple sue bono laid out to be interesting the full extradition of our history understand the full tradition understanding the fact the reason we have this market level of poverty that we see was not an unintentional path. When people say will people in poverty should just work s harder. Her poverty is a choice, my answer to them is this. Poverty is a choice. A son of choice for the people impactedd by poverty of the people feel the weight of poverty. People not wake up in the morning as a man i love to be in poverty. Its a choice of our society. Its a choice of how much pain were willing to endure. On so your question is a really good one because context matters when we are creating policy. Context matters and we are deciding on what justice means and what justice looks like. Context matters if we are going to truly honor and try to protect what the fullest, not just about the intent, of this countrys founding fathers. But the words they put down. The words that they put down. The words that they stood by. I met it would take pulling on this moral arched towards justice to make those things actually feel real. Host nancy is in los angele angeles. Caller good morning can you hear me . Host were listening. Caller hello mr. Moore thank you so much for all that you are doing and peter you as well. My parents marched with folks who march with Martin Luther king. I was so fortunate i grew up in corpus christi, texas. I was so fortunate to have been raised in an environment afor my siblings and i were required to take action if we saw an injustice. I look back at that and icy gosh, not everybody was raising that kind of environment. I am so thankful thats how that was foror me. Ive been an activist my whole life. I have a goal to help enlighten my friendsho and others who are progressive as welll. And want to know what white people can do. People who know that racism iss out of control, that change absolutely must occur. I feel there was before may 25 and after may 25 when george floyd was killed. Im peter, i asked you what the day in april 2015 meant to you. I didnt know because there have been so many. I still havent gotten over trait then margin. I didnt know about tulsa in 19201 until there was a miniseries that came out this year. No one i knew had been taught that in school. I dont know that that was in history books. What i had done this weekend i had just made help enlighten folks, do you know the class divide, the blueeyed brown eyed experiment . So yes. Absolutely. Caller thought that would be a start. Theres a documentary called the untold story but i think its by keith boucher. I dont if you know of that. Sue and nancy, what your point with that . s. Caller what . Host trip with bring those up . Caller i want to note other documentaries mcconville education is number one provokes have context like you said. I just hired documentary were nothing can be changed until just faced. Just wondering what could they watch . What could they read . What could they do too have context and be educated and then take action with its volunteering, giving money, becoming more politically active to do what they need to do . So thank you very much letss hear from the author. So nancy that such a beautiful question. And also thank you for your vulnerability. Thanks for yourln leadership. Because i give a tremendous amount of credit also your parents t and family because the fact you were raised with having social justice was part of your core, you were raised right. Until i am grateful for that. Im grateful for the this challenge of racism. Her time at whats happening right now and 2020 proceed to general crises that were throwing their doorsteps. The first is of a virus that has Catastrophic Health impact on our society. The other was a reminder abou about but the reality is even though these were different types e of crises exposes exact same truth. They expose the exact same truth is dealing with covid19 is not aboutbo the discovery of a vaccine and dealing with inequitable leasing is not the elimination of chokehold or no knock warrants. Covid19 did not just expose her is not impacted everybody. Police reform is important in all communities. We saw someone who was handcuffed facedown on the ground taking his final breath because a grown man was putting a knee into his neck. So what we saw what we are seeing with the protest around the country, this is not simply about policing reform, this is about racism. Its about systemic racism. People sometimes thanks racism is an act. That racism is like if a person says x are person goes to a klan rally that person is racist. I gets it. Racism is a system. Find his way moves like water through all of our other systems and changes o their shape. And changes their focus and changes their core. Frontal part of the thing i love you are talking aboutki is its both about howard and with education . How are we making sure were reading classics like here i stand in the fire next time. In reading things and watching documentaries. Better able to add a level of exposure to these dynamics that take place. But also that it cannot simply be about how are we going to penetrate individuals . Butua how are we doing that with a focus on being able to deal with systems. Understanding this interplay and economic injustice understanding the fact doesnt have be a binary conversation that if this person gains than this person much must lose. Snor does it help any of us by not talking about it. I think about the issue of race. Sometimes people would say i would just rather not talk about it. Are you going to Say Something is incorrect. Pleading canceled or maimed or whatever the case might be. I probably said quite a few things that are defended quite a few people. They know that becomes a proble problem. We Start Talking about or pretend we can move on without being able to do it. I think about the fact that its really important word in your question which is truth. Where we have had countries that have gone through, that if stared at their deepest madonna anyway they have known we cannot move on to better oplace if we are not willing to stare at summons deepest wounds in our society. Countries suffer from south africa and rwanda, and northern ireland, and chile. In columbia, and canada, twice. Countries it is gone through truth and reconciliation processes for they been able to say we have to be examine the things that continue to show themselves in ourhe societ. Everyone to address it for once and all. The president of the united state is active in the National Guard 12 times in our nations history. Ten of them had to do with race. Only twice has the president activated the National Guard and not had to do with race. On the other was the looting took place in st. Croix after the hurricane. So the fact the event other countries explore some other deepest wounds and be able to say the only way we can move forward is to move forth the measure of truth is something that i believe is crucial that this country also goes through. Let it go through our own process on a federal, local, state and institution level. We figure out how to move forward with an understanding of what the history actually is sue and whats more mentioned in Paul Robinsons book here i scampered every time an author is on indepth ask him or here their favorite books what they are currently reading. There i stand as one of westmores favorite books along with the fab five by mitch album and into the wild by john. He is currently reading dog flowers by danielle. Which is about what mr. Moore . Guest is actually into think about in a context of what it means to define ourselves as americans in this moment. As a member of the human race at a time when people are questioning the importance and the depth of what that means. One of the reasons i love that story began tight to some of the other things other books i mentioned before. Because i am a datadriven person, i really like analysis and statistics. I also know what is getting ready to write the other westmore i wanted to have the ten step guide for parents and guardians. Classes years ago before i had our beautiful children. And i asked him what he thought brittany said to me he said listen, i want to be honest with you. That soundsd interesting in all but no one wants to read a parenting book by a 30yearold with no children. [laughter] i said thats actually really good point. He said mchugh tells the storie stories. Sometimes statistics can add content but stories front action. And what is it exactly or trying to do with your work . Plan for me the honest answer is both. Its both to provide context. But its also to promote action. Thats one of the thing about all of those books and why i think there is a a beautiful masterful job of lead in context of this but knowing if you can make a person intimately connected with the persons you are reading about then are going doesnt do fight for because im also a deep believer when you know what youre fighting for and particularly who youre fighting for phil never stop fighting. Thats what those books all did a brilliant job of doing. Is second book searching for a life that matters. Heres an email from lauren up by baltimore. Mr. Moore wonder if you and tom a hasse know each other, grew up near each other or have talk together about all that is baltimore and Structural Racism . Guest thats my guy. For those who dont know he is another one very proud his father still very, very active inside of baltimore and a silly person i know i look to and admired deeply and also to sir paul coates his son. Ten we have. Weve had a chance to speak a lot about the city but where the city is, where the citiesie going, about why the city is the way it is. I would actually ask people that hes known for all of his remarkable books, he is i think, Toni Morrison missing before is basically our version of james boulton. I dont think you could give w a higher complement to. See it all over and the brilliance of tallahassee. As a beautiful struggle about his upbringing growing up in baltimore heard that is another one i will mention april to check out if you want to understand baltimore understand complications why people are so proud of the city of baltimore. I am thankful that it continues to drive me and drive so many others. Still firmly committed to the city, very much firmly committed to the state in a way that i am. In a way that we know it can and should and will be better. See what you mentioned his father, paul coates. He is a publisher in baltimore pretty fact if you go to booktv. Org. Go to the Video Library we took a tour of his publishing plants. We talked to him about some of the books you can go to booktv. Org type in paul coates and you can watch that. The next call for westmore comes from marjorie in florida, go ahead marjorie you are a book t tv. Caller thank you so much. Mr. West, you are in answer to a prayer. I am telling you, you got it down pat. And i want to you so much for having the nerve to say the things youre saying that nobody turn you t around. Its all about the community and not understanding where we come from, how we got here, and how we get out of here. Black lives matter. John lewis, martin, you are all the answer. I want to know do you travel . Because right now im working with the superintendent of schools in the county andnd im going to tell him tomorrow he needs to bring you here talk for a couple of days because thats what we aret working on some of Marjorie Marjorie before get an answer before we get an answer for mr. Moore tells a little bit about yourself. Caller you got to know the truth. So just tell me i know you will mean answer your question ofor this is my question, do you travel . Do you travel now . You have to be at the group of people when you get are you just have to get here. Sue went alright marjorie will get an answer to that in two seconds just tells a little bit about your self ait little bit. With that i didnt hear verges said because i am talking. I so tired. Sue and alright we will get an answer from mr. Moore appeared what your answer refer marjorie. Guest miss marjorie you just have noe idea how you fill me up. More than you know. I hear it in your voice and hurting your passion for it im thankful you have no idea how much you fill me up this mornin morning. So to answer question i do and i would love to. No tie one of the joys i have had spending time with our students andnd spending time with our teachers and our leaders and the people who are the ones are shaping our society. So the answer is yes and i would love to come spend time withthou you. Your comment to me, it was not just incredibly humbling, think what are the most important things that happened to me once i get a chance to know my truth and my history. I know that when people that ethere is everywhere i am, i am there because it was written. That i knew there were people who were willing to fight for me and advocate for me, and i include my mother and my grandparents. I also know there are people who woke up every morning who never even knew who i was. I would never know their name and they might not even know mine. But they woke up every morning with the hope of me. And that drives me. I can and should be proud of my history. Sometimes i tell people when they say things like i dont see color. And i tell people you know what, not only dont i believe, i believe thats not true, i believe thats not also the goa goal. When people say to me, listen i dont see color. What i am hearing is i dont see your blackness. As if that something i should be ashamed of. I am not. I believe and im so thankful forel the people who looked just like me who fought for the n,pe of t me. Im there because i belong ther there. I am not in any room because of a social experiment. I am not in any room because of someones benevolence. I am not because of someones kindness. Im not in any room because someone was to prove a point. Item there because i belong there. Theyll be incomplete if ise wasntnc there. Its what i would alter children to understand that they are walking in their beauty. As theyy are. They are walking in their greatness as they are. They are walking in the sense of hope that there are people in angel surrounding every single day who might not even know thatro name. And they can know the potential. Thats what we fight for. Sort ms. Marjorie, you fill me up this morning. Thank you. Tonys in the bronx. Good morning tony. Caller lacks perspective very much you are very good young man. You mentioned your mother its also point about your father also. I have been in three times im 58 i been in relationships that i dont have any children i have friends, ive been in relationships that ie tried to explain to a woman that children do need a father inma their lives. Not just the mother because that hurts children also when they dont haveur t a father who guides him like a mother. I learned 58 years ago is a breakdown of the family. That is very sad because you have a lot of young men out here, live in new york all my mlife. You have a lot of young men out here is trying to do the right thing. Sometimes they dont have the guidance of a black man. So i have been in relationships i have two sisters and a mother, god bless you that she is here. But the thing in my experience in my life is whener you have the woman in all respect i love black women, but all respect is have a black woman who breaks down the black man, dont want the black man to be the black man in the family. Sue and i think we got a lot there on the table lets hear from westmore. Guest first tony blessings and thank you. Always good to talk to somebody from the bx its great to hear your v voice. Its interesting a think about this in context of sometimes people say is there anything from the other westmore that didnt make it into the book that you wished would have . The only answer i can really think of is one thing. And that was when wes like when i transitions and just knowing quest from a friend to action want to write about it. Where the first things i asked wes was to write something to his father become undergo try to find her father. I only have two memories of my father in the sack watch him die in front of me. Wes only has three memories of his father. The last one when he was about 13 years old. Saws father laying on the couch in his father asked him who he h was. Because his father lived on the corner from him it had noo relationship. Wes can you write a letter to your father want to try to find him. And when i do i want to be able to give him something. And wes hesitated and hesitated and finally turned around and he sent me this letter. Its about five pages long. It was the most w fascinating mix of love and support and empathy and apathy and hatred that you would ever read in one letter. It was fascinating to me because i showed it to my publisher and he said did you do it . And i said do what . He said of you written a letter to your father . I told him no. He said you shouldnt asked wes to some and youre not willing to do yourself. Site went to his gravesite and i went with a legal pad and pen and started writing. Not editing not worry about anything literally what was on my o mind. I and up showing my publisher that. He said to me, to be honest with you i dont know if yours is any less confusing. And the point that he was making in the point i b took from it is in many ways to both still wrestle with something thats very, very complicated. This whole in this void. My father was a special man with everything from every story ive heardry from family and his friends is a good friend he was a good husband he was a good ma man. Think that in context of with wes he says now listen our fathers couldnt be there for different reasons. And therefore we mourn the absence in different ways. But the reality is your point, tony, is the right one. That regardless of why the void is there, the void is real. And we have to be able to lift up and celebrate. Not just how powerful in many ways our black women have been in terms of really serving this dysfunctional blue within our society. But also we have to stop doing damage and continuing to put out a lot of false narratives as well about things we are seeing along black men and women and wanting to be engaged with their families. The reality is still very much have policies in placemu that are keeping people from being engaged with her family members. We talkedyy these things kick off with the massive incarceration. That is just one element. We still have laws on the books telling people you can reintegrate with your family, but remember they are in Public Housing you cant join them. Or else hell be asked to leave publicc housing. The fact that we have so many restrictions when it comes to everything from pell grants those who qualify, to Child Support payments and disincentives that are placed out, we need to think about what it is we want from our society. I think the honest answer is we want engagements. We want unified families. We also need to stop making so complicated and stop making it so difficult. So truly holistic process were able to bring voices into perspective the way they are standing right now this is not useful or helpful for anybody. I think of this in context of my children who i adore. And the fact they have a wonderful mother can think about how challenging it would be even if we do have this very unified front. How difficult it was for my mom how difficult it mustve been for so many other moms or single dads out there who do it on their own. Creating those levels of support are important. Creating those structures to be able to make those things real are also tantamount. Host and don is mentioned often in your book we taped an interview with you in five days one of your sons got into the picture but unfortunately we cut that out pretty wish we would have left that in. He was kind of zipping through the office to come visitge you. Sue. Met. [laughter] he does tooal and one thing i will say in this moment of social distancing and it many ways this goes back to ms. Marjories points, my kids are allowed everywhere. Ill have meetings with anybody and out of nowhere my son or my daughter just enters into the frame. But i always let them know, you are welcome everywhere. So yes. If they happen a pop and before this interview ends, just know that im okay with it. Guest we would love to see you then. Steve and gaithersburg, maryland spiegel had steve. Caller wes im just wondering here you gave some pretty good context about freddie gray and his background there that probably most people would not have this one if you comment on black lives matter being a black cyst organization that basically wants to use destroy society, families especially. And also that the police in the february case were acquitted. If you do a have time coming on governor hogans g book about dealing with the riots. C1 wes moore . Guest so, i will tell you that when black lives matter pulled together in the beginning especially having known the three women who started the organization, it was started again with not just an acknowledgment but a real fear of what we were seeing about the treatment for black lives. Also the lack of accountability. You bring up a really important point, steve, or even if you think about the two years prior to freddie gray and push past before that. There were other nays that involved in this type of misconduct often times the things people saw something would happen, a payoff what happened and then it would go a away. Theres actually a misconception about what happened in baltimore that called every thing down. This i guess goes back to the second part of your question about governor hogan. Were people think what called everything down was when larry hogan called in the National Guard. On that is what brought the temperature down the thing that brought everything down in baltimore at thect time, was not that the National Guard got brought in. And sometimes when you dress forwh conflict, conflict actually happens. Heres the thing we doss know. The thing that actually did bring the temperature down estate at the tourney at the time or the associate attorney marilyn mosley, when she pressed charges against the six officer officers. Baltimore shot it was the first time in baltimore history that have been done. That when these cases happen to have bone. [inaudible] but you had charges being filed in our member being in baltimore those charges were filed people were shocked. There were charges being brought. Now to your point, two of the officers are found not guilty, four of the officers the charges were dropped. But thats an important thing to w note. Thats what change the temperature is in people thought at the moment there might beho accountability for what they were seeing and what the d. O. J. , the department of justice showed was a pattern and practice towards discriminatory behavior that is taking place. Think thats one of the things is different about what we are seeing. What we are seeing with george floyd now where the bar before was this idea of indictment. Now the bar has been risen the indictment having but the protest continued. This is about much more than just an indictment. This really is about a conviction. And the thing, your points about the governors book, one of the things it was incredibly disheartening and disappointing frankly, was when theno governors book when he did describe freddie as a gang connected with a long criminal rap sheet, the reality is i studied this. And doug deeply into this along with a journalist reporter and not just a good friend but a great reporter who collaborated with me on this book, first of all theres no evidence there is any gang connection. Second ofev all, for the governor to be able to make an insinuation like that inside of this book, freddie is gone. And he cant defend his own character. And the governor seems to have forgotten especially when you understand the context of freddie gray and his life. The governor seems to have either forgotten or does not recognize freddie was his constituent two. In freddies death was almost an inevitable result of the accumulation of societal failures of policy failures of leadership failures. Several people say the governor says in his book that people should not confuse freddie gray with the singer in the church choir, i dont. But i also know freddie gray never had a a shot and thats the distinction is important ito be able to draw. On the pushback thats important to be able to draw about what exactly is the take away from those moments . And what exactly in society that you and i see what we should do as maryland are to be able to rethink that . To make sure the sigs dont keep happening we dont have to continue adding nays but also adding frustration and disillusionment stomach the heritage report put out a report that 22 trillion have been spent on the war on poverty since lbj founded it. And the poverty rate is still about the same as it was in 1967. And then i want you to respond to this text that we received. Please address how government welfare enslaves people and leads to perverse incentives and life decisions in the government check instead of selfreliant . Guest yeah, youre absolutely right, weve had this war on poverty that has gone on since the time of lbj. But it someone who is seen war. War means you are willing to dispose in every single tool and asset your ability to win. We have not done that. The reality is that sound indictment on a political party. Its not an t indictment buying over the span of decades in shape inconsistent policies we haveve had that the people and can people in poverty. The reality is, we do have policies that we can on should bee rethinking. We do have policies that we should be retracting. Because policy positions matter in moments like now. And one challenge i would make the context of how we talk about with welfare systems and dis incentivize and, the reality is we have watched over the past 11 weeks we saw 11 years of job growth gone. The reality is, 23 of people who lost her job sued covid19 are people who were living in poverty before covid19. This is the working poor. These are people working jobs in many cases multiple jobs. And still were not living above the poverty line. The reality is if you just take a look at new york city alone, half of new yorkers have lived in poverty for at least a year over the past four years. Precovid19 half the city, not half the borough not half the demographic, half the city was living in poverty for at l least a year they robin to come of the Organization Iran with columbia university, so when you were talking about these kinds of dynamics, and you have a situation where half the poverty half the citys been livingam in poverty for the past four years but talso unemployment that still stayed around 4 , there is a massive disconnect here. So when we are talking about policy of ways to support families, here are some policy recommendations we could do to address some of the things that you are speaking about. And at the same time know we are going to benefit our population, particularly our most vulnerable. More time but how do we continue undetermined Employment Benefits because its necessary now as it has ever been before. How do we make permanent then expansion of the earned income tax credit to include childlessld adults . How do we think about making basic addresses to the Child Tax Credit and make that fully refundable, increased benefit amounts to support children and families duringre economic downturnrn question if this becomes important because these are things, simple stroke of pen things they can actually End Child Poverty almost immediately and almost half Child Poverty three incredibly difficult times it doesnt mean that we are creating supports for people as somehow being seen as handouts specially for most vulnerable to give them a pathway to launch success to get them ended ability and get them through an economic downturn that frankly they had nothing to dot with. That really becomes not just a moral obligation but frankly the most effective thing the most effective way we can think about our resources. On how we are going to come out and recover from this issue going forward. If you look for example for every dollar of Unemployment Insurance it comes in you get about a dollar 80 back into the economy. There are ways to leverage this. Wewe have to be incredibly thoughtful and deliberate about that. Host density in wisconsin with 30 seconds for you in a thirty second answer from wes moore go ahead. Caller hi thank you so much i am a Firm Believer in a time he will we make people feel hurt and wee make them feel like they matter great things happen. And we make a change. With elected officials breaking the laws theyre supposed to uphold, with voter suppression, gentrification all being real issues my question to you mr. Moore, to what extent is power or the lack thereof affect everydayac individual . C1 thank you maam only 30 seconds for big question there. Guest itss a big question in a brave question thank you for that question. It is everything. Even more a time up policies and put in place we talk about the role philanthropy does its not just about oh how can we provide support, its about how we actually sharing power ensuring a tommy. We are not here to say people pay people dont need saving. We have to focus on removing barriers to making life so complicated forak people. And so the big question, power, autonomy, freedom have the guiding principle so that we were thinking better policies, our philanthropy and our work going forward. Host westmores been our guest for the last two hours on book tv. We appreciate your time, we push it all calls and texts. Next on book tv former Deputy Assistant attorney general in the george w. Bush administration john offers his thoughts on president ial powers, then journalist lisa napoli provides a history of cable news and the rise of the 24 hour news cycle. That is followed by our summer series featuring wellknown authors from our archives. Tonight you hear from historical novelists who will discuss his life and writing career. That all starts now. Good morning everyone. I am adam white a resident scholar the American Enterprise institutes my pleasure this moring to welcome you to a conversation on the american presidency and our constitution and our politics. My friend and colleague as a visiting scholar here at aei in the university califor