Good evening everyone. We have an event were finally getting around to will have in walmart the washington lecture and Mary Ball Washington. And some time ago and the time and experience and with womens History Month and here we are tonight i went to mention one important thing everyone in the audience probably knows by now we have opened a few audiences to visitors. And in the Education Center and with those particular challenges but please come visit mount vernon so on july 8 right around the corner our book talk will feature the host and creator of the pbs miniseries on the constitution and interviewed from David Rubenstein and please join us for that conversation so we can learn more about our constitution. Terminates events but in fact i do want to interview our guest and moderator doctor karen wolf. And also from the institute of American History to institute of volume and mary and working on a project so welcome. Thank you so much. Im joining you from my dining room. Where is that quick. Im just roundabout way in maryland right now. Welcome. I will not intrude any longer. Looking forward to the talk. Thank you so much. So for all of you im sorry were not together in person for this conversation but also some of the most important and challenging issues in early history thank you to mount vernon for bringing us together my family loved visiting mount vernon but you may not be surprised to know one of the lasting contributions is supporting research new information new questions and then essential for the nation and the contributions to interpretation but also those like we are talking about this evening. In the lecture series we are grappling with core issues how do we tell those that are not George Washington or super well documented from this early. All women are difficult to document and enslaved men and women as the washingtons were working in their life but its such an important history so i will start with some quick context and 18th century virginia before i introduce tonights panel. Mary ball washington known to us as the wife of George Washington. We will let george be a minor character. Born in 17 oh eight to a wealthy and connected family and then married into another wealthy and connected family and then died in 1789 mary ball she was two years old when her father died. In all the places they lived the population was 50 percent enslaved people. She was married 12 years to George Washingtons father and bore six children the eldest of whom became the first president and managed a 300acre estate from her than three decades and was not keen to leaving that she did eventually and the last 17 years so thats just a start for the opportunity to explore them to better understand to turn to a distinguished panel you can see what im always in favor of introducing people so with a long career in politics including four bestsellers of Ronald Reagan in december 1921 a new bestseller of the attack on pearl harbor and most recently to publish Mary Ball Washington the untold story in 2019. Professor emeritus from womens studies at college the womens moral values and coauthor of the seventh edition of interpretation of American History because many graduate students how many fellowships and just published the widow washington and already wine and award. Last but not least professor of history the author of ladies and gentlemen on display in Elizabeth Patterson and bonaparte is currently writing a book that i promise you will be fantastic also the coeditor of a volume of essays and the coeditor of the Jefferson America series. This is the moment traditionally we were the applaud our panel and welcome them and thank them for joining us this evening so when we started with craig we welcome you to the 18th century but in particular you been a historian one thing that is super interesting to me in your book you talk about the history and tradition that you began your volume in the 18h century but the impact of the h century and the legacy. Can you talk with us about that quick. Yes. They give very much and inviting me to be with you tonight. The place to start, why i got interested i always wanted to do a biography of George Washington and in rural virginia and i was have a fascination with washington with two favorite president s and they remain today multiple careers and interest and talents so it occurs to me the Episcopal Church here in virginia where the ball family attended, now i cant think of it but they are all buried in the graveyard theres so i found out that the scholarship on Mary Ball Washington and what was out there was after she passed away and through 1860 she was treated like mary the mother of jesus a saintly figure and was treated very delicately. Than the. After the civil war, she took on a much harder task dear say to go from june cleaver to joan crawford. Sony there was true it was much more nuanced. So than get into the research with a very talented woman, and then had a very fine hand. And most of the life was in fredericksburg which is a booming metropolis. And much be a much more sophisticated and then to address the idea and then to look at more closely. And then to have an older stepbrother but was never around all that much. But there were no strong male figures and to achieve all these qualities to be associated with. It has to come from somebody and correct conclusion is not just because she had George Washington but raised him may be the most important woman in the history of the republic. Thank you so much. Thats an interesting reflection im sure people in fredericksburg im sure it was a lively pace in the 18th century and more lively may be more than we thought. So with a quick followup about Mary Ball Washington and how they interpreted her over time. You said going from june cleaver to joan crawford. And its a much longer period from the 19th century to the late 20th century. So as people interpret motherhood differently with popular conceptions of women. No doubt about that. All of us as historians and scholars with those modern sensibilities we are not judging them by those standards but we are taking a closer look at the men and women of the past so i tried to imagine what it would be like and also doing a lot of research on my book but what was it like to be a single woman raising six children were five children that it wasnt very hospitable to women obviously they didnt have the votes but they couldnt even own property. So then to take the property is passed along to them when you reach the age of majority. So to do what they had to do thats all respectful citizens to be the most respectable so she had to have done something right may be a lot of things under those unfortunate circumstances. I appreciate that a lot and makes me want to ask martha a question about widowhood. So for everybody watching martha has been experiencing laryngitis so her daughter will read some of her responses for us and then martha will catch us on the followup. We appreciate that ally and its very suitable with the motherdaughter thing happening here. I just want to start out to tell us more as martha balls washingtons position as a woman and how that helps us to understand her and the world she lives in. Give us some context. I wrote something out so my daughter could repeat it its a little formal but i think it answers your question if she goes on too long just tell us to stop. Telling the story of mary ball as a widow opens a wide ranging discussion of 18th century virginia with class in slavery white women contradictory roles in the way the legal system shapes White Supremacy the position gives the privilege of lack of fundamental rights to stay unmarried on the death of her husband with those special freedoms and customary liabilities. For virginia lies with the ownership of land and in marys case left the plantation to his son by the first marriage and divide up the rest among his and marys sons. He left mary the right to use the house and land the left are approximately the same number that brought to the marriage to stipulate if he felt the need for more it would come from those designated as her children. But then in line with the legal goal to reduce property owning widows to dependency which is considered the natural condition for women these Legal Practices created the widespread friction between mothers and firstborn sons after the comingofage and failed to find the means to build herself a home for over the years the quest to meet expenses on this relatively infertile property ask him and then takes and makes a profit. And then failed in that endeavor. We dont know why she remained a single but had a memory of independence from the time young mary was about six through 12. She watched her mother run their farm and litigate recovered property and make her own decisions. Another important factor is that if she remarried if the second husband hampered the legacy she would lose guardianship. As a child and wanted to prevent is not uncommon occurrence. And on the childrens property and risk control over her children. And as a slave owner over the much of the 18th century. And those between slaveholders and enslaved people as the institution developed over that time. With the two young enslaved boys and a male at age three. And with that necessity of slavery. She own children about her age who was playmates but whatever the game she would win and grip on a small farm where the enslaved and free live close together and they personally forced work out of the captives. When her father died the mother took over hiring the overseer but still controlling the farm and the enslaved workers. Mary was born in it. Where a high number of africans entering virginia speaking foreign languages. Some was scars and bewildered and frightened and rebellious. And with the early 18th century laws and with those unborn children of the enslaved women. She promised mary the as an enslaved woman she would be valuable. That working in the field as well as the house to produce children that they could do themselves. Both marys early ownership of men and boys and her membership in the early 18th century generation helps make her an unrepentant slaveowner. And then with the enslaved for mount vernon. That mary persisted and had her way. And as a widow she had to demonstrate her authority and strength for her slaves and overseers perceived weakness could lead to resistance to show that the infections by enslaved people owned by widow showed up more often in courts than those biden. So that protected the enslaved people could not see as an overseer of discipline. And that will the planters would create the mistresses and the daytoday extraction of work from laborers and a woman vulnerable to the criticism. Thank you. That is a helpful contrast. You put two things together there that Mary Ball Washington experiences as a widow and how the law in virginia and then in a powerful position. So Mary Ball Washington is very interesting figure both extremely powerful and some context so when we come back to you in the second round to give us a reminder of what that meant that lot of overture that defines property owning is crucial for us to understand. And that which constrains people is important to understand it. And how hard it is to write a biography. So even so its a challenge. Why is that so hard to write biographies of women . You are right. Exactly there are multiple reasons why there are challenges and multiple challenges as well. I take the easy way out. I choose women who are less known or have been written about in newspapers or other historians. But Mary Ball Washington is a little more elusive. But the challenges come and also how have people have kept forces which so look at the 18 century and early 19th century. And with those generalizations. They dont have public identities. If they are the mother of somebody the wife or daughter somebody. But because of that. To have those public identities to be seen as specific individuals as a general category, they got lost in the records. They were not written about as much. And if you look at the census the mens names were on head of the household. So with that you can sift through all the traditional documents and go to the archive archives. The papers are known by then mens name. And then find Margaret Arnold through Benedict Arnolds papers. Or to their fathers names. And put into one folder. You have to sift in the same thing with newspapers. And what key terms do you use because they will not always be known as Margaret Arnold much harder to find than men but this is why i like to write biographies about women is because we get creative whence they are more elusive and difficult to write about this is where you start thinking a sources in different ways not just reading between the lines but thinking about architecture that women inhabited bedrooms and orchards and thats a way to think of material culture look at jewelry or dishes or a piece of clothing can tell us an immense amount enough full and rich way even those that are there are not as rich for washington or jefferson. When i think we need to understand that it seems simplistic for me to say but those like Mary Ball Washington are simplified known as the mother of the father. Very complex figures not just somebodys wife or daughter but slaveholders and female politicians and shopkeepers an artist and women with full complexity and the challenge of the biography and then to best that open to think about sources in creative ways. It is a harder history to write and is more challenging and more frustrating especially looking for women of color it can produce a lot of anger in my students get angry. But there are lots of rewards to resurrect these women as fully complex individuals. Thank you that is your emphasis on the challenge and the creativity. It really underscores the key point especially tried being to write about those are really known to us primarily by the relationship to someone who enslaved them and the incredible achievement and to let her be an individual when really we only have two points of access in those interviews of the 19th century describing when she went away to washington. So yes so with those individuals not just in a relationship to other people. Thank you. Going back to the question with martha and curvature so asking two things, the first one is that if you can very quickly are a sustained description what the law of curvature is and how it disempowers women elites or freed women and empowers them when they are not married. When you marry you lose your legal identity. As a woman you assume your husband nothing that you produce is yours. Presumably you are dependent on your father who can arrange and pass things on to you and you can be the owner of property. When you are a widow the same thing happens you can own things in your own right so curvature wipes out your individual legal existence. We know who we stores many of those that men have. Its interesting to think about and as a very challenging time to have more legal capacity than when shes married and also in men are widowed day we marry much less quickly. And we cannot assume that in some modern feminine sense but that capacity she has suited her in some ways. She saw the difference in her mothers life. Its not clear to me she enjoyed her mother very much. She admired her strength and her abilities. Also she would not have to have any more children. But she had six. She may not have wanted to spend her life producing children but women at the time had a real reason for not wanting to marry again. Also possibly to lose control over the property that she still had but also longterm from her father. And then preferred that. Also to mentioned very briefly, all of these subjects are big ones and compelling one ones, and interesting thing is that there are things we can know about. Can you briefly talk about Mary Ball Washington as a reader . I have some of that my daughter could read that is that okay . Yes. As ray became an adolescent she came into possession of the Christian Life from the beginning the first of a handful of devotional books she would read and reread during her life there almost all written late 17th century all helpful whose early loss of her parents left her in need of comfort and guidance. Many lessons focused on how to accept loss of health and fortune by studying those purposes excessive unhappiness and complaining challenge guides all you knowing plan this is a common belief and although many did not comply she had to learn these lessons early and often. Matthew hales contemplations Marilyn Devine she wrote her name below her predecessors that book was her daily companion she use that parable to suit herself to teach your children and grandchildren. George washington later came to own his own copy. These books all taught the hierarchies that at someone should work hard. Most favorably as stewards of property and then to insist on moral behavior someone if the lowerclass could not appreciate the complexity of christianity. So they would tell slaves not to steal and be obedient. Marries books furniture brain to navigate the stress and pain unlike the wealthier contemporaries she did not read novels that were beginning to be popular. Written the friendly egalitarian tone rather than as teacher to student had empathy and sympathy sharing sorrows with pain. Because of her early losses a precocious workload had little of these qualities that the elite valued valued. That is helpful and also amplifies the point you are making about her thinking about her role and her placement in society. So mentioning this point as a significant leader to understand her person of letter was your sense of rewriting the biograph biography. I will ask you a slightly unfair question talking about how important it is to think of women as these independent people and i do want to ask yo you, what is the significance to understand Mary Ball Washington to understand George Washington . At the driving question for people and what you address. Can you help us to think about that a little bit . Sure. Listening to marthas daughter talk about her scholarship , but it reminded me and this addresses the larger question of the scholarship of Mary Ball Washington of all of them in the 18th century. I equate that to going to the hobby store to buy a 1000 piece puzzle dump it on the table and finding 300 pieces missing. It was like that to piece together. If you work on look long and hard enough but with mary a woman of the 18th century , it was difficult to find these things. We dont even know exactly when she was born. George washingtons mother we do not know where she is buried. Maybe it was where she is to go to pray or near a cottage in fredericksburg but nobody knows where she is buried. But from the time she was raised in the values that she grew up with, obviously it was a difficult time but ultimately a very good woman and that important times in georges life to make sure he followed the straight and narrow. Twelve years old he wanted to become a cabin boy. She wrote a letter and it came back very quickly. So mary under no circumstances could george be allowed to become a cabin boy so in the british navy it was says as severe as with the officers. And with that british royalty got the bread one the best treatment. But then way down at the bottom even below jamaican slaves were americans. This is also at a time the British Embassy cap very good records Something Like one third of all cabin boys died at sea. Scurvy, washed overboard, battles, plus in with the crew and went to the brothels and bars and got the worst sort of people to become sailors. It could be drunk in a bar and then wake up hundreds of miles out at sea not see england again for three or four years. So putting a boy into those circumstances that was not very good. So she ensure that george did not go into the british navy and encouraged him and got him tutors and encouraged him and his reading and encouraged him to become a surveyor. She didnt want him to go to the ohio valley which he went twice but then he was a man and striking out on his own. Many times he did look after her affairs. So the idea of responsibility to his mother that he obviously learned from his mother as a citizen and as a son and human being. All of these qualities as i mentioned before to be associated with George Washington had to come from her. She instilled that in him. Thank you. Im trying to find the place in my book but when you wrote about her not wanting him to go to see. I thought that was moving. I think previous biographers said she tried to tie him to closely to the Apron Strings and has the realistic sense of what that would mean. And why she thought that would be a positive outcome what but i thought it was a great point that you made. So if you can say one more word because this is striking you talk about her is brave. Shes a brave woman and washingtons bravery, we can source that to her. It is quite powerful. Actually all women of that century and time and era had to be brave. Is just difficult circumstances that children died in infancy in tremendously high percentages. Everything was a danger. That you died of influenza and dysentery and rheumatic fever, fever, so to be a single woman raising six children, de tocqueville with democracy in america wrote about the singularity of american women. He perceived american women were different and far more independent stood up for themselves and all good attributes. I remember reading that from democracy in america. He didnt have Mary Ball Washington in mind but i did. He wrote that in 1832. But it struck me of the things we dont look into enough for the personal qualities is not just the names and dates and places but real human beings and especially at the end because she knew she was dying. Nothing could be done about it. It had to be terribly painful for her but by all accounts those that were made with fortitude and bravery. One thing i would note talking about mary that she manages and enslaves a pretty decent number of people with a commanding presence. George washington also does. We can see that in two ways. These are people who are in charge and maybe thats a parallel. Yes. I would agree with that. Look at his conduct may be but then to pull together a ragtag army for seven years missing that from battle to battle. And then has to come from someplace. Thank you and they are really great and thank you very much. So could you help us put Mary Ball Washington in the context of 18th century. Can we draw any larger lessons . And so did martha have some valuable insights. Can you bring that out for us more . Sure. Mary ball washington is extraordinary and also ordinary. She is eliminating on a number of points to tell us of the 18th century. First of all woman born at the beginning and we dont have very many women that are 18th century but she is and thats wonderful. Ordinary as the elite white woman who is born into a white slaveholding family and woman of privilege in spite of many losses and suffering and to enjoy the privileges and the faithful and devout christian and we need to spend more time looking at the centrality of the 18th century. I dont think that gets enough attention. As a devout faithful christian is convinced in her right to own and control people. She has a right to be in control even though she is a devout christian and the paradox of the 18th century. Her sufferings are sad but also ordinary. Lots of women lots of women lost their husbands which she is unusual that she doesnt remarr remarry. Because of how hard life is they did not make the choice to go alone. And also the limitations a single woman who controls a large plantation and owns a number of people in these a lot of taxes but yet does not have political power or social power that a man would have an h century. She helps to eliminate the limitations of womens lives. On the other hand, when you read our book you can see an elite woman who understood she needed to learn what all young ladies needed to learn, how to rise, read, write to attract about the husband and she did. Washington was quite a catch. I also think she shows some of the choices women made those who read about Mary Ball Washington would be surprised that she chose to not remarry or control the legacy of her children on of her children to pass that on to them. And then she becomes known as the mother and emphasizes that. But shows us how complicated womens lives are. This is what i was saying earlier and a much more complex figure than that. She brings more questions how would she have characterized herself we can characterize her as much as we want but how would she . What does motherhood mean to he her . We could guess what it might have meant but what mattered most . Maybe it wasnt being George Washingtons mother. And gives answers but also gives questions because we just dont always know what these women are thinking. And he said theres questions out there so we will leave it at that. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone such good questions i cannot read them fast enough. There are so many good questions. So what you address someone has asked about her feelings about the American Revolution as a british subject what with the feelings of the American Revolution . To we have any hint about that quick. Yes. We address that. There are hints she was a sympathizer. But nothing out and out to say yes. She grew up a subject and in the divine right and to attend the state church of england. She read English Literature and dressed in english fashion in every way from childhood through 1776. As a british subject. Trying to immerse myself in that time. It what to say to an individual everything you have learned for the 50 years of your life is long you have to do this or go to state church. And with that life stale change. And with what their culture has been but theres no evidence that she supported george eithe either. And there was a reference to french troops and several or at least one of them made reference to her being a tory sympathizer so she was probably fairly agnostic about the whole thing. And martha talked about this there is a time she was working in her garden and then the messenger comes up to say that george one and important battle and she says thats what he supposed to do. There was no joy or success of the American Revolution against the british empire. Not whatsoever. I dont think she thought about it that deeply. Nothing in her letters or biographies that suggests she took a position one way or the other. To be fair even with the quantification was support of the revolution may be one third were patriots, one third were tories and one third we will see how things go. And living life as a british subject. So that may be more than one third of americans were loyal to the british crown. His own son was imprisoned as a tory spy. He had to be. [laughter] so we have at least three people have asked what mary hot about martha said you have something to tell us what Mary Ball Washington thought . At mount vernon they didnt get along it all. Mary and martha didnt really like each other. Converg and charming. She has things to say and was a very utilitarian kind of person and i think that she represented many values martha have trouble with like frugality. Martha was very lavish and so was george. Although she asked for little bits of money from george, she didnt do that and didnt dress up and worship the high life. She didnt enjoy whatever remaining control mary had over her son. Thank you. Its interesting they are different generations. Those generations really really mattered in that period in virginia. Okay, so heres a question a bunch of people have asked about why she didnt remarry but do we know about her ever considering remarriage, did she ever have any other suitors . Theres no evidence of any other suitors whatsoever. The desperate evidence that she did have a reputation. Go ahead. There was some discussion of a doctor that visited a lot. But nobody actually knows. Someone asked a question about women as slaveholders and what is the dynamic when a man is enslaving people they have a certain level of authority. The question of being harsh or tough and i think we had some scholarship . That. Right. The scholarship opened up a picture of slaveholding women that goes against its increasingly clear they were more violent often, kind of personal oneonone, stabbing somebody with a sewing needle on hand coming using a kitchen implement. So, we probably dont know a lot about how but we know enough about other women to no violence was a regular daytoday occurrence in these households because women didnt have as much authority and they also have a hard time interacting with overseers to and that makes for a more frustrating, tends violent environment. Thank you. Thats helpful. So, i have another question here which i just love. This is directly for you, martha. This is a question about documents. Are you aware of Mary Washingtons papers to be included in the papers project which the George Washingtons paper project to with support from mount vernon is publishing. Im not aware of that. The papers are so few, its just heartbreaking. I think when martha went through the papers and went through things after georges death, i wouldnt be surprised if a great many of the notes written went with that. So whats left i think are five or six letters. There is one of the morgan library, and i dont know whats going to happen other than that to them. To speak of her papers is a beautiful dream. Theres another wonderful question here i was going to ask both of you but i think weve lost crags connection. I know we were having a challenge with that. But helen also asks you think there is a mysterious statue of papers out there somewhere like the old dream about that. Do you think there is a stash of papers somewhere . I have no idea. Maybe craig knows. We were just getting to my favorite question here which is about whether there are more papers to be found, is there a stash of Mary Washington papers yet to be found. No, you dont think so . I think that he is on mute still. Okay. I think you are on mute still. Ken you on mute him or he said he cant. You have to do is because of genetic cant do that for you. This is sad because this is such a great question. [laughter] there you go, now i can hear you. I lost the signal. Do you think is a stash of papers out there waiting to be found . While, we all know martha destroyed her letters to the george wrote her. I think the scholarship is always available. Its remarkable the things you found. Up in new york someone found a book with a lock of hair of George Washington standards astonishing the amount that is still on found out there to be discovered. [inaudible] my son was going through declassified documents and found from the office of Naval Intelligence marked house speaker, stamped top secret and said nobody ever founded until we came across it. [inaudible] including the panama canal oh my gosh. But this memo had been around at the Roosevelt Library for years unclassified and nobody ever came across it so i think theres always a new scholarship out there to be discovered. I think that is great and so important. Whats your work shows all three of you is the power of locating more information, bringing fresh perspectives and interpretations. Sometimes we talk about revisionist history as if it is a bad thing but the truth is, and i borrowed this from my friend has a great civil war historian, you get new information, new perspectives, and that is what we are doing here, the scholarship brings new information and perspectives to fully understand this critical [cheering] of the american past and i hope that youll join us in recognizing that its the most significant in American History. [laughter] we are just going to end right there and say thank you all so much for joining us this evening and thank all of you. I appreciate all of your questions. Theres a few questions here that i didnt ask that focus on mount vernon. Im going to email because youve got some Great Questions and i dont want them to go unanswered, so thank you all so much, thanks to kevin, jeanette and mount vernon. Dont forget it is open for visiting and dont forget what i said about the Important Role it plays. Thank you so much, everyone. Recounts the failed plot to kill fdr, churchill and stalin at the secret meetings he attended in tehran in 1943. Now without further ado, lets welcome howard blum. Thank you,