Course this could not be a more important or timely conversation that we are going to have today since the death of george floyd m Police Custody last month we have seen National Wide unrest weve seen protests on only here in america but internationally. We have also seen a certain narrative take hold. It starts with the assumption that the only way to properly view george floyd is through a racial lens. In fact all encounters between police and black suspects are increasingly viewed this way. It is a narrative that assumes the behavior thats typical Police Behavior towards black suspects and it assumes george floyd is a sort of black every man in america. That would happen to him happens to black people all the time that black essentially leave the house each day worrying that theyre going to have a violent encounter with police. The media has run with this narrative which faces very little pushback very little skepticism. It leaves us that the biggest problem facing black America Today are the police. That Law Enforcement is at the root of social inequality in america. And so we find ourselves in the middle of a National Conversation about policing. There are calls to defund the police, abolish prisons, there is legislation be discussed in congress to make it easier to prosecute cops and fire them. We have armed her radicals that have taken over entire neighborhoods of a major city like seattle that includes the Police Precinct that is been abandoned. They are commentators who are not only making excuses for the rioting and the looting, but indeed sure and get onto a large extent. So what is going on here . That is the point of this event today. Weve invited some panelists to talk about that, particularly interested in what they have to say because they fall within the Demographic Group and whose name all of this is happening. That is they are young men of color. They are supposed to be the biggest beneficiaries of what is being advocated in the wake of George Floyds desperate soul get to the panel also briefly introduce them and that we can get start with questions. First up we have jamil jivani was a lawyer and author. Who has a Nonprofit Organization aimed at helping people. Hes a graduate of yale law school, and the author of the book why young men, the dangerous allure of Violent Movement on what we can do about it. I hope we get a chance to talk about that the next panelist is Rafael Mangual who is a Deputy Director of legal policy at the Manhattan Institute and has written widely on urban crime, policing, and the Justice System in general. Im finally we have Coleman Hughes who has recently joined the Manhattan Institute in this a graduate of columbia university. Coleman has testified before congress on slavery reformations and he is written widely about race with a number of publications including the new york times, wall street journal and coal at. So lets get started with the questions, gentlemen. I thought i would start with yo you, rafael. Its a very basic question but i think a lot of people assume that once you get your take on this. And that is do we know that the floyd encounter was racially motivated . That it happened because floyd is black and if not why have so many people jump to that conclusion . Sounds like a simple question think the answer is pretty complicated the short answer is no i dont think we can make that assumption because as far as i have seen theres just no evidence that it shows his actions today which are your hands or role and what you see on radar but i think the reason so many people have assumed it was racially motivated is because the event fits into a preexisting rhetorical structure. That policing is a system you when you have a terrible instance of misconduct when they have the officers are white and the victim is blacked jump black it is assumed to be a foregone conclusion. And as to what some of the reasons for that are, i can only speculate i think one might be the power that we have seen that these narratives can have two drive change into obscure facts that get in the way of change that a lot of people have been capitalize these events to affect. So is like to ask you the same question, coleman. Why did seven people assume with the narrative that may be some activists on the political side of the commentators want to push. So absolutely short answers we dont know if its racially motivated that for people who dont have that range. But its also many people there is aye man who died under the knee of a Dallas Police officer and that was released on video did not spark as much outrage as he george floyd incident. Which leads to your question is why is this viewed as only happened to black people. It was the massive coverage by it in the National Media. Dozens of white people at least a dozen sometime several dozen white people get killed by the cops every year. Those stories just die in the black hole of local news. They never escape and make it to national news. Some people who are following the news casually understandably get the false impression this kind of thing overwhelmingly only happens to black people. And in many ways is not their fault it is what the National Media has fed them. And then the question becomes why is there that coverage in the National Media . Why have we heard about george floyd but i in knows the name tony tampa . In addition to that i think it has to do with an understandable sense, americans and i can always speak for myself but Many Americans were raised watching and re watching the videos of white Police Officers brutally hosing and kicking the dogs of the protesters in the 60s, the peaceful protesters. That kind of mold is imprinted in many ways on the countrys moral imagination. I almost ingrained in our subconscience. So when we see aye officer doing something to a black man actually hits the American Mind much differently and poignantly that if we saw white officer through the same thing to aye suspect or black officer doing it to white suspect your black suspect. , so jamil do you agree with coleman that the media plays a role here . In helping people jump to these conclusions . Regardless whether or not the facets have been laid out, white cop black suspect must be something fishy going on here . What role does the press play in leading people to jump to conclusions . I do think the media does play a role. Certainly the media helps direct our attention to some cases and not others. But part of why the media has the control on that narrative because it speaking to a reality. In that reality is disproportionality in the way disproportionality works in our society. I think when people see george floyd for example been killed by a Police Officer, it is objectively more likely its going to happen to george floyd because hes black and not aye person. And that alone, did that disproportionality is genuine frustration and concern. Think a lot of black people around american no they are more likely to be stopped by the police and more likely to interact with police in how they negative encounter with police and aye person. Why that is the case deserves a much more nuanced conversation than the media currently make space for. I do think we need to know that is a reality that black people are disproportionately experiencing Law Enforcement this sort of way. I think the media wont appoint observing exclamations over others on why that might be a case. So is part of why we wanted to have this panel. So why are black encounters with police, the rate of those encounters why are they so much higher than other groups . Are Police Picking on blacks . Are they over policing these communities . What explains the disproportionate number of encounters between black communities and Police Officers. If you live in a majority black neighborhood your mike league to be exposed to Gang Violence young to worry about your kids were safe after going to school there calling the cops in your providing the cops to have a stabilizing presence in your community safety. A lot of people interact with a disproportionate rate. As a prejudice and bias a factor . Im sure it is just like it is in every other part of life. Its how human beings think and experience the world. I do think the way crime is distributed American Cities is a big part of why police are having more common interaction than others. Okay, okay. Well jamil says racism still exists, including making it easier to fire cops or prosecute police. [inaudible] central database for police have been disciplined but moved to another state, join the force and hide their background and so forth. Just wondering what you make about these in general whether they are good, but more importantly, how much of a difference do you think these reforms will make . When it comes to getting at the problem kamil is talking about. So i think thats really kind of the right question before you answer think we have to get a realistic picture of just how big of a problem Police Violence is. One of the problems as i see it but the broader debate that there has been this toxic narrative that caught fire, particularly in the black community that said policing as an institution is fairly characterized by unjustifiable use of force which is reserved for black and brown people. This is false. Police use of force is extremely rare for talk about lethal or nonlethal force. Lethal is using about 0. 003 of all arrests on those are estimates in 2018 where they made 10. 3 million arrests and theres estimated 3004 did read times. Its generally less than 1 . This is not evidence of a largescale problem for dessie first practical limit that many of these reform proposals are going to face with what the differences. There really isnt that much room for improvement. Sort of the political problems they got absolutely no credit for that 1971 the nypd had wounded more than 220 people and kill them most 100. By 2016 those numbers were down to 7220 something and nine respectively. None of that progress is reflected in this rhetorical debate. I think that is one practical limit any proposal make any policy proposal will face the extent to which it can overcome this overly womanly powerful narrative. The second issue that just not a lot of data behind the popular reform we are seeing. I do agree this has been made to difficult to fire some bad Police Officers when they misbehave. I think that reflects some very real concerns about job security. There are ways around that we should be talking about. The support for that is a general incapacitation argument. The same way it benefit society to incriminate them. At benefit society to incapacitate a bad cop by taking that power away from them. But we have to do that. Unfortunately our conversation right now just is not allowed to get to that point. I dont have a timeless hope that they have time to make this better. So what you think about that, coleman . Some of these proposals are calling for more data, better data, sharing more data. For instance Different Police departments collect crime in different ways or collect data in different ways. There is no central database where they feed the information into an terms of the behavior, the officers how often they fire their weapons and so forth. Theres no uniform way of reporting this nationwide. Some of the legislation moves us in that direction. I know you are a data guy. I like dated too. We all like to use it. But i am wondering if that is the real problem here when it comes to the narrative being pushed . And if they had better data we would not see the narrative we see pushed out there. I would like to see more data to produce think it would make much of a difference in changing the conversation we are having nationally . I am pretty aligned with ralph here. There are two things one is which reforms make sense. Transparent data makes a lot of sense to me, universal body cams make a lot of sense to me. Perhaps changing qualified immunity although i can kinda see both sides of that one. Demilitarized weapons makes a lot of sense to me. Then theres the other question of how much will that address the problem with deadly shootings of unarmed americans. Here i am pessimistic because i think we are misunderstanding why the shootings happened to begin with. The numbers are very low to begin with it is harder to bring them lower from a low point and bring them blow from a high point. But many of the shootings happened because america is the foremost gun country on planet earth which means when a cop pulls over a suspect for example, that cop has a legitimate fear that the suspect has a pistol hidden in the glove compartment. That means in america unlike say britain, when summit reaches for their wallet or smart phone, a cop is going to have a fear that cannot be legislated away that the suspect is about to pull a gun on him or her. It has to be said that luckily 300 cops die every year. That has an effect on how american cops approached an american suspect. We can do all of these reforms as i think we ought to have a very, very serious and rational conversation about how to make Police Departments accountable. The status quo i think is unacceptable. Short of shooting someone in the back, very difficult to get punished as a Police Officer in this country. That seems like it has to change and rebut at the same time we also have to manage our expectations about what is possible. I think we probably can come i hope we can get to a place we never see Something Like george floyd or tony tim again. I would bet all the money i have no matter what we do we cannot get to a situation where there are zero or very close to zero deadly shootings across america because of a gun country. So okay. So what i think im hearing here and i certainly agree with that if what im hearing is correct no one thanks cops are perfect. We should find ways to get rid of bad cops, root them out of police forces. That is all for the good. But at the end of the day policing does not seem to be the central problem here. You said before police are in these communities because that is where the 911 calls originate, they have a reason to be there. Which gets me to it this question. Is making policing the centerpiece of this National Conversation were having right right now the right way to go . And if police are not the central problem or policing is not the essential problem, where would you like to see the focus of this conversation . A lot of people are paying attention right now. If you think we are over emphasizing the role of police and black homicides in this country. By every data measurably how we are in fact doing that, two or 3 involved police. Where should the focus of the conversation be . Well, i would say if the goal was start reinvesting money away from Law Enforcement and childcare in other things at the necessity kind of a vicious cycle in that respect. The problems that required to invest more in policing, then take money away from things that might address the core issues that in require the police to come to the neighborhoods in the first place. Every Police Officer and Police Device spoke too readily acknowledges these are not problems youre going to simply arrest our way out of. Last 25 years with Law Enforcement can have a heavy hand on crime but that will also have a devastating effect on communities at the same time. Theres a role for the communities themselves to play. I think a lot of black americans understand the need to address violence in our neighborhood and also create conditions i dont think that is appreciated or rehab that really tension on the ground. If you dont have to worry when you see on the news that a shooting happened and youre not thinking oh what intersection did that take place because my mother or cousin might live there you probably dont have the real value of police on your mind already. So there is a broader class dimension to this if you dont need the police but if you live in a situation where you need the police you see their immediate value was more complicated view. A black lives matter as a Community Group that has emerged to have a voice on this issue, there is a difference here black lives matter is very out of step i would say on many issues. With the opinions of the average black voter in america. If black lives matter was not for the majority of black people i dont think joe biden wouldve won the democratic primary for example. I think you see in polls and surveys that people do want to talk about things like family they are more positive views on Law Enforcement among the average black voter than black lives matter. Its rather conservative to create jobs and opportunities in education reform. On the ground we are not the center point if in these with the author of the new class is a managerial narrative that puts police as the center of the problem. So let me ask a quick followup. I know you have written about role models and guidance. In these communities particularly for young black men for the hiphop culture that influenced rapid music and folklore. Our young black men and these communities being taught to view the police with suspicion . Is this a cultural problem . I think absolutely there is criminality in the pop culture prayed a lot about pop culture is big business that makes money off of the art in expression of young black men. And it intensifies the embrace lease and the cultural perspective if not in the actual actions or behavior. So absolutely i think its a problem. I wish that we held people who see their cultural role to address systemic racism to have a standard only address criminality in some of these neighborhoods. It is heartbreaking that people get to make billions of dollars a year selling gangster fantasies and its young black men who pay the price for that. Stuart okay. Raphael i want to ask you if there is a danger here in the over focus on policing. In other words said not only wide of the mark but the goal is to reduce the number of black deaths each year. Is it dangerous to do this . Could there be a back lash among Law Enforcement . And how might that look . How might that play out . I know youve ridden with cops, you have written a lot about policing in urban areas. What is the danger here of scapegoating Law Enforcement . Getting the danger is twofold. The first part is it feeds unrealistic impression from the data that these sort of things we saw in the video with george floyd are regular occurrences as opposed to aberration. That creating and feeding that impression, in my opinion is indefensible. Yet, the dangerous people actually believe it. Theres a 2016 poll that said twice as many black respondents reported wearing more about becoming victims of Police Brutality then of gun violence. Twice as many. Consider also studying sociological review in 2016 said highprofile cases of black violence is less likely for black crimes. To the danger is its creating a wall between black and brown communities, which we saw just by talking about the violence. It can be extremely dangerous and people less likely to call them into their neighborhood to deal with these very real problems. But as you intimated theres also the reality that police might pull back. That is something weve seen happen in recent years. A lot of people would say lets just policing babies that would be the right response of the reason for the pullback was the kind of angry will go ahead and take care of yourself kind of approach. I think actually much of the pullback is real fear. Ive spoken to a few Police Officers in the past week. In departments around the country actually. Its a real sense of insecurity. I dont know what is going to happen if i approach this guy. And maybe i should just lower might risk profile here. Over the long run one of the dangers this will have is a lot of these reforms and rhetorical posture that demonizes police will lead to that job becoming more physically risky and legally risky. As you increase the risk profile of a certain career of a certain profession whats the risk if they taking if its worth alternative options for them more risky the endeavor becomes, the less attractive it becomes for people with better alternative options. Its making policing attractive to a group of people who dont have very many options. That means the recruiting pool is going to bring in people with lower iqs, less psychological profiles. Ultimately perhaps ironically that would end up exacerbating the Police Violence problem that they work so hard to get down to zero. And so they are real dangers. They also form, in my opinion, radical and just dangerous reform proposals that pursuit d policing at any cost and those have consequences too. There was a woman killed in the summer of 2018 and chicago her name is Brittany Hill. She is 24 years old she standing on the street in front of her House Holding her 1yearold daughter. A car pulled up, this little girl waved at the car. The guy in the passenger seat opens fire. Hits Brittany Hill the torso just below her she was carrying her daughter. She fell, collapse, died in the street shielding her daughter from gun violence. That little girl is going to grow without a mother now. On the way that plays into this discussion is the person charged with her murder, michael washington, had nine prior felony convictions including one for seconddegree murder. Who knows how many dozens of arrestees was on parole of the time. People ask how can somebody like that be on the street . Its precisely because this pursuit of criminal Justice Reform at any cost put him ther there. That cost a young woman her life. No one deserves to die like tha that. It breaks my heart because precisely what you pointed out there are real dangers here that no one really was to consider. Jamil talked about the prominence of black lives matter and able to drive the narrative here and also the different perspectives so if you live in one of these communities if you live outside of these communities and are speaking from that perspective. He also talks about culture though. Why cant we why isnt culture, black behavior, black attitude, black habits, towards police towards Law Enforcement, why is that allowed to be part of a conversation . Why cant we talk about black homicides that dont involve police . Like the ones raphael was just describing. Which is the overwhelming majority of them. Why is it so difficult to have an honest discussion about the role black culture is playing here when it comes to incarceration rates, crime rates and so forth . Even know that seems to be the biggest elephant in the room. Many people just get extremely uncomfortable. You can feel the temperature of your own body almost rising as you utter the phrase black culture. But if you lower the temperature and talk about it. Think about what is important to discuss, every group has a particular history and culture that is shaped by that history. If cultures were all the same would not have any need for a word like multicultural. And so the difference between how Many Americans seem to view black people and white people is white people are this group of people that they can behave good or behave bad. If they behave bad they deserve to be called out and shamed and implored upon to change their behavior. They are agents in the sense they can make decisions and be held responsible for those decisions. Thats why we condemn white cops were being bad or we condemn amy cooper in central park for calling the police on the man she ought to not have called police on that way. When aye person does something bad the instincts, which is not wrong it is the correct instinct is to hold them responsible that when a black person does something bad, there is a very different attitude people take. They think theyre being enlightened. They think this is a sign of morals that they dont blame a black person. But its actually the opposite. The only people you dont blame for doing something bad are like children, babies, dogs because you understand that they do something bad they cannot be appealed to change their behavior. So by excusing any kind of misbehavior, people think the during the morally enlightened thing. Its actually the essence of dehumanizing. Let me followup there is a question. I think, coleman, fully talk about black cultural attitudes with respect to crime and so forth, what we are really talking about is a subculture. Certain segments of the black community. Particularly lower income black blacks. Those who live in poor communities, ghettos and so forth for the culture that comes out of that environment. Which gets me to it my followup and that is the george floyd presented the everyday typical black person. Why do these sort of worst performers among blacks good to represent all black people . Most black people are not criminals let alone career criminals. Most black people are not drug addicts. Most drug people are not poor in this country. Yet, it is the outlaw, the black outlaw, the criminal, the drug dealer and so forth that gets to represent blackness in america. I find that very troubling i dont see it ending anytime soon. It seems to be something, you spoke about some people feeling good about themselves and this is a way of not caring about the black community when in fact these individuals dont really represent the black community. I think there i think because of the history of White Supremacy going back to slavery, one of the features of black American Culture is indeed the sense of identity via victim. Ultimately that can be blamed largely just on how entrenched racism has been throughout American History. That when you beat people down for hundreds of years its fairly natural for them to have a sense of identity rooted in victimhood at some extent. Its a deeply unhealthy reaction because then your entire sense of Meeting Agenda meaning becomes bound up in you being a victim of the system. It almost gives you a mental incentive to do worse in life because success is somehow assigned that youve lost your identity. That is whats behind its not so much that george floyd is being said to represent lack america because he is from a particular subculture that needs someone may be counterfeit bills. Its more that is said to represent but culture because hes a victim of horrible Police Brutality. And that victim image is very deepseated in the black american consciousness. Jamail, when you hear words like systemic racism and White Supremacy, you are that brought up in this discussion of george floyd or other encounters with police what comes to mind, what do you think systemic racism means . What White Supremacy means . Should that be part of this conversation . Or central part of this conversation very prominent writers theres this is all part of their narrative that black people live in a fundamentally racist, fundamentally oppressive society. And that is the reason we are seeing these outcomes. Thats what we see these encounters with police. And thats why we see these outcomes. So we addressed that are going to keep seeing it. Before i get to the systemic racism i want to go back to what coleman think about outlining some of the pitfalls with identifying them who are struggling or dealing with the Biggest Challenges in our society. Theres something beautiful about that too. Its a christian ethic its what christ taught what you did for me you did for the least among us. And thats what black people in our society sees someone like george floyd in our society anything that could be me. The question is what do we do with that empathy. But the empathy is important. Yes there focusing on wealthy white people to see aye person and appalachian severing from opioid think that could be my son, my nephew, my daughter. It can be very beautiful but to the question of systemic racism though, to me i think its often a vague word places little responsibility onto anyone. If you say there systemic racism theres no racist bigot the point a finger at inside this persons being a racist, this person must change or be removed from his or her position or whatever the case. It allows us have a faceless kind of racism that makes it hard to solve problems. I think was a valuable way is and we can identify actual policies that actively disadvantage people because of where they come from or what they look like. And thankfully we live in a society with us far fewer examples of that than there used to be. But one example i can think of that i know the Manhattan Institute is taken very serious look at his education policy. You dont give parents a choice in where they send their kids to school. And you know and send them to your local schools that are shaped by segregation and equality. You are then making that child destined to be in a system you give the people more choice and more freedom and not restrict that. You get them an outlook on systemic racism and i would encourage people to adopt. Couple questions are coming in about the popularity. The funding, the police, are moving resources away from police. How popular are these reform in these low income black communitys . Or is this something that they assume will go overwhelmingly in these communities push the name of blacks. Think theres certainly more popular now than they were even a month ago. Because of whats going on in the pressure that puts on people that has all of the momentum at this moment in time which is reform. I think you are right to suggest there is at least a divide of black and brown communities around the country where it is assumed there is an equal subscription to the idea that these reform proposals as radical as they may be are good. And to the people who buy into that i would offer a warning we have a lot of evidence as to how things will look if we defund police. If we divert them away from the mission of crime control. We have evidence of how things will look. Again i point into the Brittany Hill case and in chicago people who were suspected of shootings or homicides havent average of 12 arrests. Thats a lot of criminal justice involvement to make our Justice System even less punitive is going to have the effect of putting more michael washingtons on the street. Theres nowhere to allow that. When it comes to policing out as people do you think its a coincidence that the city of chicago sauce most of violent weekend of the air the weekend of may 31 where there busy saving lives in other parts of the city was it coincidence that may 31 of the single most violent date chicagos history since 1960 moment he started keeping track. That is a very clear snapshot of what we can expect if we divert police away from the community that needs them the most. The idea there is empowerment in these things ignores the very real downside these policies carry. Meet born with people across United States when he says hes frustrated by the fact a lot of these activists do not live in these communities that they behalf and speak. I sympathize with that. Homicide is extremely concentrated in the United States. You take a city like chicago the south west side has a drastically different picture than the north side of the city does. And to say that we ought to just from the top down place these risks on the most vulnerable populations in our country is just irresponsible. Coleman, first i wondered if you have any thoughts on the use of systemic racism and White Supremacy that just gets thrown around. Turn around the conversations on the left. And i wonder if they mean Different Things to different people or if they have no real meaning at all. If you have any thoughts on that i would like to hear them. And also talk a little bit about how floyds deaths is being used to push issues well beyond Police Reform in this country. We are now talking about movies that should be banned, books that should be banned, and jemima and uncle ben have been dragged into this discussion. Where do you think this is headed . So cheer first question of systemic racism, the term comes from a book written in 1967 by carmichael and Charles Hamilton called black power. I was then called institutional racism. If you read that book what they really meant by the term was a Real Estate Agent with a black perspective homeowner into a black neighborhood rather than a more upscale neighborhood. A racially biased banker that did not get a loan to a black business owner. They met was a subtle kind of racism is less violent than the kkk burning your cross on your lawn. In the original framing of institutional racism i completely agree that exists. But still exist today. Much less than it was then. But unfortunately what institutional racism has come to mean to people who use it today is really basically any departure for equal outcomes. If 14 of the population but one third of people in state and federal prison, that sufficient proof are many people we live in a systemic racist society. And i probably should not have to stated obviously to the people here, thats an extremely superficial analysis of the problem. You havent looked at the crime rates you are operating under the assumption that everything should be equal. When that has not happened anywhere on earth for any group of people rather than simply trying to make things better for the people at the bottom of society regardless of their race ought to be focused in my opinion. Into your second question, i am always curious if you are trying to get the jemima logo change, are trying to get your local statute torn down. Listen, i dont particularly care about any of these things. I am not going to waste too much energy trying to preserve them. If people want to change them that is just the way of the world. But you should stop and ask yourself, what you doing . How is this helping the issue of Police Brutality . Or how is this helping to reduce racism . Actually asked those questions if for the first time. And in general the answer is absolutely nothing. With this is doing is giving us the kind of sense of having accomplished something. While all of the very real questions all of the very real problems that people on the left and the right what to address albeit in different way ways. Jamil if you could pick up on that a little bit. We are talking about taking down statues. Banning books and movies and so forth. You know, i know a fair number of progressives they are smart people. They note taking down a statue of Jefferson Davis is not going to close the learning gap in schools. Or boost Home Ownership or black incomes. Over reduce black crime rate. It may be a worthy cause, but you are not getting much bang for your buck if the goal is reducing social inequality. So why the focus . Why expend so much energy on these relatively marginal things in the grander scheme of things . It reminds me learn you know in connecticut were yells is has one of the greatest wealth disparities anywhere in america. I get excited about trying to change things like the name of one of the colleges in the university because it is associated with someone it was a bad person in history. Maybe making schools better in new haven and having a chance to go to gail one day. Thats a difference in perspective always puzzles me. I think part of it people wanting to feel like they are powerful. And it feels to them more achievable to feel things like the name of the college or local pancake syrup or whether statue is up or down. I think being reminded of your power as an activist is sometimes a very appealing thing. Maybe it is the achievability of some of those goals this part of the appeal. I think part of the appeal goes back to the classing that it brought up earlier its an important issue and a lot of people on the right of american politics are starting to wake up to the realities across in American Society which is that someone at yale just does not have the same interest of someone going to new haven to a not so great school. Even if they look the same part i know thats hard for people who think that race is such a controlling variable for what our political agenda should look at. The truth is its unfortunate some people dont want to recognize that pretty think the example youre giving about the symbolic gestures toward inequality were in a finite amount of time and energy should be focus on bigger fish to fry. I think i find this being a bigger variable than what People Choose to spend their time on. So okay, dont have a lot of time left. I want to pose question and get an answer from each of you if possible. It has to do with how tolerant do you think the country at large will be at this agenda being pushed by a relatively small minority of americans. Progressives, leftists, activists and so forth. I think being indulged largely part i wonder how long White America particular which is obviously still a large majority of the country will put up with that . How long are they going to let nicole haner jones rewrite American History by telling us its founded on slavery. How long are they going to let people tell them which movie they could watch . Which book they could read . Which words they can use . Is there going to be is there a backlash thats going to come at some point from White America in particular . I would like to get each of your thoughts on that. I think if i was asked that question like post 1968 this a lot with the riots there gives rise to Richard Nixon and eight lot of law and order politics and animated our approach to crime policing and incarcerating from the 70s to the 90s. I was had the answer to your question is yes you can expect a backlash. However think the dynamics on the ground are very different today. I think theres more pressure being brought to bear on White America in particular that im not so sure is going to be a willingness to fight back. At least very loudly. Im not convinced there will be a backlash this time around. What i do think will happen is people will start to really quietly retract from interactions that are more fraught. Retract away from cities. That could be really devastatin devastating. I think that will hurt black and brown committees in particular will make for future conversations and our country that require us to be on the same page that were supposed to have it ultimately i think it just kind of really tears at the fabric of our nation which is built on integration and intermingling at a really necessarily high level. I worry about that. So how about you jamil . Backlash on we see batches of Thomas Jefferson coming down . [laughter] i dont think we will have a violent backlash or anything i do think we will have more groupthink which is on these issues especially at the institutional and managerial level of our society. I do believe theres alternative ways. Tucker carlsons rating seven going to the roof during all this and people want to hear from somebody this going to Say Something different very think thats where the backlash will come from his people saying i dont want to hear this groupthink anymore. Lets just hope that the people offering alternatives offer a positive one. So that is interesting, coleman, you mention Tucker Carlsons been in the news lately his ratings are up but is having trouble keeping advertisers which tells you corporate america. [laughter] might be a little skittish here even if there is a large majority of other americans who want a straight shooter. Absolutely. Not just Tucker Carlson its literally anyone saying a word , anything from mildly skeptical of the black lives matters totally dismisses of it. Having it up swell with attention being paid to them. Its all happening relatively silently the kind of dynamic that led the west, me included, to be absolutely blindsided in 2016 by trump selection. Lots of people silently on their own time thinking did george floyd really died because he was black . I wonder because theres that little kernel of skepticism that cannot be distinguished. And in a free country it will find some way of expressing itself presented the backlash as already happened. Okay well im going to wrap things up here. Im going to thank you all for your time it is been a very, very constructive conversation pretty think we covered a lot of ground and heard a lot of different perspectives you here and a lot of other places when it comes to discussing whats going on in the country in recent weeks. So thank you again i want to thank our viewers for tuning in. I also want people to consider prescribing to our newsletter and make a contribution to our mission. We have posted both links in the comments window on your screen. Thank you again for your time everyone. Be safe. Book tv his top nonfiction books and authors coming up this weekend today at 4 30 p. M. Eastern Princeton University professor author of begin again, James Baldwin america and the urgent lessons for our own. Hes joined in conversation with author actavis harvard University Professor cornell west. And it 9 00 p. M. Eastern on after words Washington State congresswoman. Millet use the power you have, brown womans guide to politics and political change but she is interviewed by connecticut democratic congressman jim hyde. Watch book tv on cspan2 today. So during a virtual interview with book tv faith and Freedom Coalition and founder and chair read talked about evangelical christians continue to support President Trump bird heres a portion. So i got to know the president in 2011. He literally cold called me, never had met them before in my life. Honestly did not have a high opinion of him. And i told him that when he called me. And he said the next time you are in new york come see me. I did. I told him if he was serious about running for president he should come to one of the events that my organization with the Freedom Coalition and get to know some of these evangelical activists he did that he did that repeatedly and one of the times i met with him and trump tower he, without me eliciting it he raised it. He said you know i used to be prochoice but let me tell you what happened. He said i had a good friend of mine who became pregnant and it wasnt inconvenient or unplanned pregnancy. And by the way, most are. And she did not really know what to do. Her husband wanted her to have a abortion. And this woman who was a good friend of his, he and milana were good friends of this couple said what you think i should do . And he literally did not know what to say to this person. Long story short, she made the decision to keep the child. The child does not know that she was nearly aborted. She certainly does not know that trump knows that. But he watched this woman grow up knowing that. And his telling to me i said she is an amazing woman and a star. Eddie said i started thinking to myself she almost did not make it and that is when i decided there are probably millions of people like that and i cant judge his heart i dont know whether or not that was that change of heart was genuine or politically calculated. But it sounded genuine to me. And whatever the facts are in only god can judge our hearts. The fact it he is the most prolife president weve ever had. He kept his word and i think it is real. Now you mentioned you did not have a high opinion of donald trump in 2011. And you write in your book that christians are not seeking the political savior in donald trump. So there is a political calculus here . There certainly a calculus of citizen. I have walked through it in my book. And i talk a little bit about it in an answer to a previous question you had that we are called upon as citizens, i believe, to first of all defend our rights. And i talked about in the book about how when the apostle paul was arrested in jerusalem. This is all detailed in the book of acts. He was about to be put on trial it was going to be a Kangaroo Court and he was going to be executed. He exercise the most precious right which was to appeal his case to caesar. It was unbelievable sacred right of a roman citizen. And in the roman world, very few people were actually citizens. Certainly most jews were not. He was. Unto caesar he went. Now he did ultimately dive but i thought it was interesting that while he was willing to die for the gospel he was not willing to dive for his rights as a roman. The first of all called upon to defend our rights trumps offer to defend our rights and by the way caesar at that time the occupant of that office was tiberio who was a notorious sexual deviant. He was a pedophile, he murdered his opponent and had their bodies float down the tyger river to intimidate his critics. He was not a good man. But that is who paul appealed to. And so that is the first thing we are called to do breed second thing we are called to do is to advance the common and moral good. And i quote Ronald Reagan in his famous address to the National Association of at evangelicals in 1983 were said you dont get to check out a citizenship and say both sides are flawed pretty got to choose a side. And he assignment communism versus capitalism. But it applied today in her own project for the third thing we are called to do is to resist evil. And i believe abortion on demand is immoral evil. And trump is willing to resist that. So that is the argument that is the christian case not that he is perfect because none of us are perfect. Not that he is without sin because all of us in. But on these aspects of a true understanding of citizenship, he is someone we can work with and who has offered to defend these things and advance the common good. To watch the rest of this Program Visit our website booktv. Org and do a search for ralph to reader the title of his book for god and country. One of the issues with the john bolton book, the room where it happened was the prepublication review by the government. Tom blanton is the director of the National Archives and he joins us now on book tv to talk about this prepublication review system. How did this develop . So the original prepublication review is really an artifact of the 1970s when some former cia agents. Ticket leah guy named Victor Marchetti owes his explas