All to be with you to celebrate this tremendous new book. The book is asia new geopolitic geopolitics. Book isk at an important time about the reshaping that is going on across the indo pacific reason. Its also the author of another great book right behind me talks about the end of the age century. Misha is why the most prolific i from the region just do it i did set up a google alert for what ever her essays are published. You will get it right away. Also hopes of a wonderful podcast that he does with john you on the pacific century. And of course the Asian Pacific reason as we cso many developments ongoing whether its from north korea or the latest aggressive actions of the Chinese Communist party. We could not have a more timely discussion about this vitally important region. And then joining us to facilitate this discussion as a brilliant scholar in her own right doctor nadia shadow is a senior fellow at the hudson institute. And as Deputy National security adviser or strategy in the Trump Administration nadia was instrumental in what i think was the most significant ship since the end of the cold war and that is the recognition that china is a strategic rival in the policies of the Chinese Communist party pose significant threat not just to the United States and her interest in the region and globally it puts all three into open society nadia its great to have you here to facilitate this discussion. Enter kick it all off we have congressman Mike Gallagher who is done a wonderful job serving this country as a congressman from the eighth district of wisconsin. Prior tubing at congressman which again hes there on capitol hill in 2016, he served his country with distinction as United States marine corps officer. Mike has a distinguished background as a scholar as well as a graduate of princeton purred he has a masters and phd in International Relations from georgetown university. Mike i will just say i have fond memories of when i first recruited lieutenant gallagher to serve on an Important Mission as you would just returned from iraq. Like it everything you did you exceeded all expectations. Mike, she of soon learn if you havent learned from these introductory remarks, its emerging as one of the most thoughtful Young Leaders in the area of Foreign Policy and intelligence. Id like to call on congressman gallagher to please kick us off. So thank you for that kind introduction. And thank you to misha for asking me to it join you this afternoon. When i was in previous life i worked for him if you see me break out in a cold sweat at any point during these remarks, i still feel like a Second Lieutenant when ever a hang run hr i get very nervous around hi him. I can hear his voice booming in my head, it might, brother, youve got to hurry up. Also hr hired me back then because i was a middle east specialist. In many ways ive been catching up and mishas work and scholarship has been a critical part of that. There is much in his compelling new book that we should i look forward to talking about today hr writes in his forward, spin warning of the communist partys belligerent behavior but its only for a long time but its only been in the past few years that these warnings have become mainstream. Ive spent a great deal of time in congress wondering why exactly that is the case. Why did it take us so long to wake up . What is it about the present moment that has awakened to the western world to the threat posed by the Chinese Communist party prayed so in search of answers because we have been trapped in our very basements through the last few months i recently sat down and watch the 2017 classic film wolf warrior to. The highest grossing chinese film of all times. For those who are fans of this film you note at the climax who was an american mercenary is baghdadi is about to kill the hero who is a special ops soldier. Baghdadi attempts to jam a knife into his throat he gloats and said people like you will always be inferior to people like me so get used to, get used to it. Spoiler alert mike van turns the tables around and stabs them to death it was the use the ebola to kill them and it was a ebola that was used to kill fiance originally. Sorry i just wrote it for a prey to the original wolf lawyer this was satisfy get familiar ending because that first installment ended with another american mercenary this time and at u. S. Navy seal with a british accent named tomcat. After trading multiples tablets tomcat takes a seemingly helpless while holding a bowie night to his 30 rips a patch off his shoulder the chinese flag in the words and say i fight for china. And he mocks them for being willing to die for his country. But of course the tables are turned yet again and our hero manages to stab him. Surely after the commanding general of the chinese unit suddenly sums up the movies message by saying those who challenge chinas resolve will have no place no safe place to hide. I think there is a lot to dissect in these movies that may seem like an even more cartoonish of a michael date movie here in america. In his chapter on the new china rules, misha offers which something that could be ripped straight from a wolf warrior strike and shed fight team. He says quote with chinas new strength comes a bare knuckle abusiveness combined with an unexpected sense of insecurity. It deems increasingly clear that beijing expects the west to change how it thanks and acts, engage in selfcensorship and even punish our own workers for defending china. Of course weve seen this phenomenon play out in spades with the diplomats have adopted wolf lawyer diplomacy throughout the coronavirus crisis. Responding to the general secretary desire for responding with more fighting spirits and implants wolf warrior diplomacy has seen this often ham handed it often comical as those in the wolf warrior movies. We are still in the middle of this plot, early returns and Public Opinion suggests that wolf lawyer diplomacy may be backfiring in your particular comment further turning Public Opinion against the party. I would submit it may be popular domestically within china. What we are seeing today is the product of recent events colliding with the long running trend. Thats of course the cover up the dove the coronavirus outbreak in these subsequent wolf lawyer attitude that one a few fans abroad. The wolf wore attitude is not brandnew the first movie came out in 2015 and two american administrations in a row across both Political Parties have released strategies that have rightly with the indo pacific gnome with the urgency in the strategic scent that hr and nadia put together. I give them incredible credit for the phenomenal work leading to the National Defense strategies. I tell you some who works on these issues on every day in congress and the countries very politically provided im struck by the amount of consensus on the basic premise of those documents. Are not necessarily taking issue with the premise of his grand strategy with nadia. Luckily we have the work of insightful and clear eyed scholars to thank for that. For waking us up the challenge we face from the Chinese Communist party and the fact that we have a new direction and u. S. Foreign policy. It will take a long time for us to figure out how to navigate this new set of geopolitical challenges and all the different crosscurrents that we navigate around for decades to come so misha thank you for your work thank you for not firing me over a decade ago really excited for this discussion im honored to be working with you on this in congress . So thank you for those great introductory remarks. To our viewers this could not come at a more important time. What weve laid out this diplomacy and approach i think the pla and misha were anxious to hear your thoughts are on it. Its why were such a dangerous. Now. Across the pacific so for our viewers, what were going to do now is going to do a facilitate discussion led by doctor schadler with some insights from these superb essays in the book. We will facilitate that discussion with purpose and of gallagher until 45 past the hour in the meantime send me your questions i will read them as the discussions going all synthesize those as best we can in the final 15 minutes i will post to doctor osler and some of the questions from reviewers without further delay thanks again congressman for those great introductory remarks i will now turn it over to dr. Schadlow. Select think every much of the pleasure to be here this afternoon its great to be back with old friends. Thought i would start because i think congressman gallagher needs to depart a little earlier so misha if you dont mind ill have a couple questions to him and then will turn to me she prayed doing to say however, mike you have proven my point i should go wrote an article without having to fluidly recount movie lines. And plots. Too literally make it in the National Security import and transform policy fields any of doubt it again. You go forward youll see how awesome thats actually important its usually to the godfather. So mike i would like to ask a couple of questions. In the past couple of months youve been really busy at home writing a few really great and interesting things. One talks about the problem of reciprocity and that u. S. China relationship. Think of that point he talks about how twitter, as a platform, they were using twitter here in the United States as a platform. But there were rules and regulations that prevented its use in china itself. Could you talk a little bit about that . And second i would like you to comment a little bit more about your mowers recent that talked about the possible cold war between the u. S. And china. There is some criticism of that i think a couple days later, bob selleck wrote a letter to the editor he found the term not helpful. Thought it might be interesting to start a little bit with the cold war and the reciprocity. Thanks. So great thanks i do not want to consume time that could be better spent listening to me she was an actual regional specials but to take it to the godfather the middle east is very much like michael corleone in a godfather for it every time i scape it pulls me back in. But on the first question of reciprocity, i recently did an hour long interview with bill bishop whom im sure everyone tuning in this stenosis is the publisher of cynicism has become essential reading for people who Pay Attention to these issues in d. C. He really said something i think is true, these platforms are absolutely essential to the ccp ideological warfare strategy. It is the water in which that strategy swims. And without at that strategy really has a tough time taking hold. So it i suggested after seeing day in and day out go on twitter and suggest conspiracy theories that often were being parroted by the american media, not to be too uncharitable. I wrote a letter to jack dorsey with the senator and suggested a simple rule, a fair rule would be for countries that deny their own citizens access to this platform, i. E. China. They should not be able to propagate conspiracy theories on that platform. Im sure there are unintended consequences to that im not thinking about. Its an area very tricky. Theres a lot of conservative bashing of Media Companies and suggestions we should treat them like content publishers. I think its a bit more complicated than that. I dont think we can sit idly by all this disinformation is being openly injected into our democracy. We just went through a bruising debate years about russian disinformation leading up to an election. This is more pernicious we are in the midst of an election right now. I would be interested on thoughts on how to thread that needle. And for thoughts on a cold warm hope into a better analogy. I think misha what youve written youve been critical of that analogy so i welcome the pushback. My only point is there something in between hot war, particularly nuclear war and status quo, doing nothing, right . In cult gray zone, warfare, we can call lukewarm warfare, i think the cold war analogy is useful. One because it closes into certain similarities with the original cold war the need to reinvent a lot of the National Security apparatuses we built in the old cold war. Have a society effort invest in research and development from a federal level but also clues us into the many, many differences. Foremost among them the fact we were never economically intertwined with the soviet union like we are at the Chinese Communist party. And also just let cold war history as a reference in the peace, Joseph Mccarthy is buried in my district hes in my district hes a second marine Intelligence Officer from wisconsin elected to congress that may be a dubious distinction. That warns us we can go overboard. But as long as we have the capacity for self correction is something we can win. The final thing, sorry to go on but he cant help but think they go on pay tv every day and criticizes cold war thinking and cold war mentality because they dont want the new cold war to end the way the old cold war did. With wii when they lose. I rest my thoughts. Thanks mike prayed thats at perfect opening with history, historian, misha lifted turn to you now the featured guest of the day. So first i loved your book. I would like to say that each of the essays really elegantly crafted they are perfect for both those who are new to the subject as well as experts. Michael howard the famous who wrote about strategy would have been proud you are an example of what he was talking about. So lets start a little bit, michael just on the title of the book, geopolitics tells a little bit about what you mean about geopolitics. As a scene that run throughout the whole book. To think its important for the audience to understand a little bit of what you mean tell us a little bit about niclas as well, he also features and several of the essays. I think that forms a nice framework for understating the rest of the chapters. Thank you. I am happy to do that. I realize now the title of the book probably should have been a wolf warrior geopolitics, i dont know if we could change it but probably not asking represent of gallagher for his thoughts on the title before hand. Before that limit give a few seconds of thanks. Thanks to the Hoover Institution for allowing me to it publish the book. To go with the book of essays which a lot of people dont like. Tom gilligan who is the director and very supportive of this, chris and his entire team, this is my third publisher and this is the best experience ive had publishing a book. The book is beautifully done as a peace its nice to hold. Erin wicks are and her team has put the word out i really appreciate. Halley Neal Ferguson who kindly wrote such an excellent forward that according to this context of where we are today and i appreciate him taking time of course all of you guys were coming on i know how busy you are unrepresentative gallagher not only helping run the country worried about very impending wonderful family news that will be coming so everybodys busy im glad you took time. Its important. Its important for those in asia for decades have waited for. Now its here its a little bit like the dog catches the car. What do you do now because everybody is focused on and a way that you were a lonely voice in the wilderness. One of the ways its helpful for me to it think about is this concept of geopolitics. Represent of gallagher talked about the water they would swim and we assist women geopolitics we would think about all the time in relation to our strategy our goals our desires are with the world should look like. And then at the end of the world were redrafted just like we folded up Strategic Air command and said okay we dont need it anymore. I think part of it was the end of history, the idea we were end at history the idea that we did not have to really think anymore about a Global Challenge or different areas of the world. I think also some of it may have been related to things both hr and Micah Gallagher went to the revolutionary military affairs are we thought we can project power anywhere around the globe easily with precision we dont have to think about geography there are things that made us forget why geography is important. Geopolitics i want to have a distinction from geo strategy is very simple it is the influence of geography on political and International Relations or conversely how Foreign Policy interaction geographic space. I think when you think about china theres no other way than to understand that they are looking at the world geopolitically. Were so used to trying what one belt that we are the Second Island change those or geopolitical conceptions for the chinese. But the way they are approaching it is three geo strategy. I know its clunky im not a huge fan of it but that its important distinction to make. I think these days you talk about geopolitics as though that is what ir is its foreign policies geopolitics. Well geopolitics is not necessarily what you do with the un or the hague. But when you think about access to resources we think about lines of communication you think about linking different parts of the world together to benefit your own Natural Power of your thinking how is a geographic state. You do it through geo strategy for those of us on this side of thinking about policy we should be thinking about it in those terms i found it i will wrap appear in this question, i found the start with the germans gave it a bad name theres a long history there. I found niclas pikemen was that gail historian and political scientist geo politician whatever you want to call him unfortunately died during the ward he died very young he wrote a couple incredibly insightful studies on where geopolitical competition played out and unlike mick kander despite his with thinking is close to thinking about that gigantic step area in central russian parts of china talked about the wind lancets where plays out in the interest sees words the mediterranean or the English Channel or in case of age of the East China Sea and south sea is where the people are in the productive facilities are. That is where competition really happens. It does not happen in the middle of the Pacific Ocean unless youre trying to think of a place that gives you midway and access. Instead it is competing in the wind lands and despite what i think it really helps us understand what beijing has been trying to do for the past 20 years in terms of securing in the book i called the asiatic its the space but the sea of japan, the East China SeaSouth China Sea all the way into the indian ocean. It behooves us to understand what the chinese think about geopolitics in order for us to have the right strategy. I was next going to ask you to expand on the mediterranean what is actually happening there. Maybe over the past few years in terms of some of the development. Also he could link that to the broader concept of how that fits into a thats also another important theme of the book. Tell us a little bit about whats happening in the Mediterranean Development you think are important and for us to continue to watch. This is actually a term used in 1942 in his last book the structure of World Politics and blanking on the name it was unfinished at the time of his death and then finished by his colleagues. He said lets look at ages interconnected sees though think about the mediterranean all the great powers are arranged around them. It is the life light into and out of the region. To be think of the East China Sea, the South China Sea, taiwan sits at the neck between the two of those it closes seamlessly from what we used to call asiatic russia siberia down toward the most productive think of japan, south korea and china in the northern part of china these are the most productive parts of the World Economy in terms of production. And from there, all of the Raw Materials flow and all these finish foods flow. We dont really think of it because they have different geographic nays. We think of them as a c separated from another sea. Certainly not how the agents think of it. Nor to the think of it being separated from the indian ocean. You get to the indian ocean different ways. But then you flow directly into the sea and maybe the indian ocean and that leads to the part of the world we are thinking about. So for them its an integrated space in a battle space its wife or example the chinese term i dont think we as much anymore we did about a decade ago their brief building a string of pearls. That was to flow, it was the geography of the peace is the last book. People should pick it up. It helps you understand why you need to have a forward defense. You dont want to be contained in your hemisphere. You need a global defense. You need to think about it and integrated. Its why the chinese are building bases, its why theyre Building Access points in pakistan or in burma to allow them to have strategic space to flow from the productive neighborhood they are and all the way to where these goods go. When you look at whats called is the maritime silk road, component of the landbased road come the american follows the road its either the flag following trader the other way around. But they are creating Access Points is why the indians are so concerned by the Largest Naval procurers over the decade will be in the navy theyre very concerned about maintaining access. Its why the japanese are building because nobody wants to have their strategic space shrunk to ready or not able to enter the commons. Weve been so used to operating in the Global Commons as essentially an island nation the controversial island nation that we lost the sense that it can be cut off from us for seven years we have not had to think about it, we have to think about it now. Its certainly only writing the National Security strategy seven people thought it was exactly right it is a competition which is a theoretical concept of where they competing at, this is how they are competing there competing in space we have to understand that in order to maintain the freedom and the free and open Pacific Concept that goes for us back to the 19h century. A free and open pacific and indo pacific just as we have maintained our ability to get from the continental u. S. Into. [inaudible] stomach think thats a good segue to the concept of the indo pacific it was a concept introduced the National Security strategy for to been talked about by others as well i think we like to comment a little bit on the hill perspective on it think its an area in terms of whats needed in hr do you have any thoughts on it as well and ultimately whats happening more recently in terms the administration is thinking how its going this is the strategy, so mike and michael you want to briefly chocolate that court customer expect i am just happy were tagged by the indo pacific. When i was there to be part of the east Asian Studies and the state department you have the east Asian Pacific affairs. But they dont think about it in that way. You look at policy or japans quads i alliance with india. Its all integrated. We need to catch up. Dod gets it right with the area of responsibility for Pacific Command is exactly right it comes with the entire region so we are getting married think we need to get the rest of the government and academia so also worked at it and integrated way that that has come along way since i started doing this 15 or 20 years ago. At least from the hill i dont think theres anyone who is questioning the renaming, nor the overall prioritization geographic prioritization it represents. I do however think, this is not just true in congress or cutely true in congress more broadly in the think tank community. I certainly sense a lack of focus on india. I dont think, while we have a growing number of china focused scholars i think that is an area where neither members of congress nor the broader Foreign Policy community have chosen to focus on and write extensively about with some notable notable exceptions of course. I think more broadly as it pertains to the National Security strategy and the respect for the room land that michael lays out. I think while recent polling suggests that americans in the wake of coronavirus have an unusually negative view of china in general. And even canadians by the way. Once you tick off the canadians you know youve really screwed up. I dont think it is a palpable sense of clear and present danger that would allow us to make the necessary military intelligence and economic investments that i think we need to make in the pacific pretty thinking other words people in my district in northeast wisconsin felt the threat of the terrorism in 2015 and 2016 when i dont feel the threat of the Chinese Communist party its more insidious its different, and i think thats true even after coronavirus. We all have to do a better job of explaining why we dont want to live in a world which they are even able. So asia for asian at has the u. S. As it pacific power. Thats a harder case to make when theres a time and people in both parties there embracing a more isolationist view and they dont understand how hard it would be to move across the pacific to get to the fight in ways that misha does understand in the book lays out. Is doing to make any comment comments. No i think i will pass we have some Great Questions from reviewers. Stomach ill ask a few more than open it up to viewers. I know thats what its about. Like to highlight that it should have done this early on the book is actually more than just about china. Theres really interesting to chapters on japan, michael has a historian on the region hes written about japan for many years. One of the chapters had a very interesting description of how japan managed to balance the problems of globalization both the opportunities afforded by i think very clearly explain how japan balance between the two and whether or not those lessons has relevance for us today. So misha would you like to comment a little bit about that . Yes the acacia is called the eightfold sense came from one of the oldest japanese poems it talks about how the gods set eight fences around japan to keep it safe from the world. So it would be a divine land. In many ways we have this exotic image of japan but certainly not true but the same time japan is clearly maintained barriers to the world that most of us in the west would find questionable if not problematic. I wrote the book because honestly, i lived in japan in the 90s and parts of the two thousands. You get very used to it. I was back there, and i was there during the terrible paris massacre. I was in tokyo and all the news was coming in. We immediately, your body reacts physically whats next i realize i am in tokyo i am perfectly safe. Japan obviously has an instance of terrorism in the mid 90s. The terrorism we had been dealing with at that point was 15 years the post 911 in japan did have to worry about if youre in a dangerous neighborhood they have to worry about china. A lot of the things that have consumed us and is looking at what was happening in europe in terms of immigration, simulation and open borders and the like. Japan has a different set of answers. Out of that flowed this acacia and a very broad sense japans choices and whether they might not be better than we gave them credit for. There simply after the popping of the japanese puzzle in 1989. We lost interest in japan so wasnt going to make it rich so we were going to carry about it. Thats exactly what happens when chinas bubble pops. We will be away for us to get rich. Without we had the gogos 2000, 90s and so forth and japan seems stagnant. Get by any metrics or pandas extraordinary well. Whether to health metric, a social stability metric, education metric, it had enormous problems and i recognize that. But we made choices that bennett really was not very modern and it is not opening up, a complete integration with the world. I questioned whether in 100 years would look back and say they may have made choices it certainly werent legitimate possibly better than ours was meant to be a controversial chapter. Think i will simply end this by when i have that information every wood knows money can be made in china. But the place that everyone aspires to be is japan clean skies, green parks, safe population that supports its government they all wanted to be japanese we should at least be aware of that. Ill ask one more questions about north korea its not a line of discussion we often hear soils summarize very quickly, you argue that we should be more realistic about the dangers north korea poses in terms of potential accidents involving Nuclear Materials and Nuclear Components and weapons and we should actually consider working with them on safety issues. I think that is interesting. I dont think a lot of people talk about that. Why dont you comment a little bit about that. When he wrote that chapter i forget when the original version came out did you get pushback . What was the response of that . So now i am breaking out in a sweat i am nervous about hr coming down on me. [laughter] were hoping would notice the chapter . It was meant to be controversial and i got a lot of pushback. But then i got weird invitations from people whove never invited me before. So heres where got my cold war as a whole dissertation on strategic adaptation in the cold war ive never gone that date but ive been very interested in nuclear question going to college in d. C. In the 80s it was a big topic. It seems to me the real issue with north korea i see them as very rational actors you dance up the line of craziness but really never cross it. Theres going to be an accident of fully loaded with a Nuclear Warhead fed planes crash we did know where weapons are they happened disappeared during accidents of the cold war oddly off the carolina coast. Accidents all the time, telling thing to the soviet union the explosion we dont know how damaging it was. Is called Nuclear Enterprise nuclear safety. I interviewed people from Strategic Command although we dont have missile leaders and sub captains. They talk about the main job is keeping it safe. My fear is how do we know north korea is going to keep it safe . We dont know the design of their weapons. We dont know if they have links, we dont know who has authority to launch. We dont know if it will be delegated in case of decapitation. We dont know how theyre going to send messages with the phone lines get cut in summonses omega let me launch. We dont know their early warning. Two episodes we talk about in the chapter are how close we almost came to nuclear war with the russians. Where malfunctions not malfunctions but misreadings is only because humans interviewed they didnt launch back in 83, so we have no idea. They do not have satellites in north korea. What they see a b52 circling and they say thats it. My point was my fear, having a safe Nuclear Arsenal is so difficult that if, and i say if if we do not do nuclear eyes them which has been a goal of altmans administrations if we do not d nuclear eyes them. If we live in a world written with Nuclear Weapons how do we keep them safe . Thats the key thing. They will go if they make us do it i get that. What about the accident were a missile can launch or blow up and they will blame us . So crazily its a question do we try to help in some odd way . If they have them i dont think they will let us help i dont think they will let the chinese help. If its a war where our kids are going to live under a north korean shadow to some degree how do we think about it differently . Its meant to be a provocative check but one through all of cold war history welts really hard to keep these things safe. Weve done an extraordinary job with incredible, incredible work at it. We just dont know if north korea will do the same. I will let congressman gallagher, one minute on that and then hr for the questions youre nodding at a cant tell if youre not a because youre crazy or hes right. [laughter] i agree with everything he said. in terms of the now, policy. Theres a lot of us, myself included who believe theres more weeing can do to impose pressure particularly when it comes to chinese banks and businesses that give an economic lifeline to north korea and i think a lot of times people advocating return to the status quo or saying were going overboard in term odd more confrontational approach to china with cite a variety of areas to cooperate and stability on the Korean Peninsula is one of them. The terms of that argument, its failed because the Chinese Communist party is not a cooperative partner. I think north korea policy is something that we have been content to just sort of praise mask pressure but ignore some of the disconfirming bits of evidence we have getten in recent months. Thanks. Okay, now, to the audience. Thanks so much everyone for hanging in with us and hr, the floor is yours. What a great discussion. So what ive done is to give you a heads up i grouped these into seven questions theyll be rapid fire. We have a Great International audience here and youre asking just wonderful questions. Thanks. So from greg, john, dylan, matthew and david, their questions were but what but the flash points were seeing in the South China Sea, along the indian borner with the extinguishment of freedom and individual rights and freedom of speech in hong kong, threats against taiwan . What is china trying to achieve . Is this new aggressiveness connected to the covid crisis . How do you see what china is trying to do along these flash points and what do you think the prospects are Going Forward . Its a huge question. Some point is hesitate because im getting back more into historian mode than pundit mode and trying to look forward. I think its important to go backwards in a sense and say, why did we get here when this was obviously the point we didnt think we would get to. Were combining things that are domestic that are going on in china with the party, with, again, its geostrategy, what its doing on the outside and again how it sees things like taiwan and hong kong. What is clear is that the stronger that beijing has become, the more assertive and aggressive its become. The beaddition is interpretation is why . Out of confidence or institute think its a little bit of both. We cant forget its always thestroke country in asia, has to be. Just by nature of its own joe a geofray and fates strong neighbors neighbors anded a very sources. I believed it can bully smaller nations. Its easy to say it has done that history lick but in the mindset and dna of the chose bureaucratic state that this is how International Relations were ordered, and yet its also a party and a Leninist Party state that notes it does not have much legitimacy, even at home, i particularly with the economic slow young it faces enormous pressures Going Forward, its slowing down economy or beijing is back are in lockdown about the coronavirus, it did not handle that as well also it led the world to believe; that pollution is terrible. I can go through a list. Thats also what i tried to talk about in my last book, the risks and stresses within asia. And so does it feel it needs to act now because it cannot act in ten years the way it wants . We saw that with japan in the 1930s. Felt it needed to act then as opposed to waiting because time was not on it side and theres an odd combination in beijing of feeling so much stronger than nip else around it given where it has come in the past two decade or so, but at the same time not knowing if in two decade hence it will act. Theres some of these are very historical. We are seeing 20 indian soldiers being killed in a clash with the chinese just over the past couple of days. Theser border disputes back from then 19th century, so theyre played out in a modern setting but didnt develop just because suddenly china is strong. These good become for centuries, goes back to the ching dynasty and 50 years ago, over 50 years ago, nearly 60 was the border war between china and india. So thats 60 years ago. So think if japan and the United States were still fighting skirmishing over world war ii, in 2000. Thats 1940 plus 60 is 2000. Thats where they are with india and china. I havent settled at the borders. What is clear is no one has settled the problems and thats the biggest reason we have the point, asia cannot figure out how to get past these things who its she South China Sea, East China Sea, borders on land. Not just children its japan and asia, its cambodia and thailand, but clearly its the assertiveness of the parties desire to be seen again as a hegemon, clearly at the hegemon in asia that has driven so much of this, and the concern is that eventually flash points can just multiply. You can lose control of the situation. Thats the scenario i talk about in the war chapter, first highlight of the war between china and the out. We should be very worried not that he region will good to war. Should worry because it has even more interstate conflicts thanked did before. They have not solved it. Thats a bad data point for us to be looking at. The questions from our other viewers. So, ed, josh was felix and lawrence, questions about whats driving this from emotional perspective from at aspirational perspective this, behavior from the communicates communist party . What does china want . What is this alleged of National Rejuvenation . How do you see . Lawrence who is listening in, from berlin said is this a modern day version of labins realm. What is china really hoping to achieve and what is driving it in this alleged of National Rejuvenation . Again, these are extraordinarily important and hard questions and i know that ron, the eminent chinese historian from oxford is online asked one of those questions. Im hesitant id like to punt but i dont think i can. I dont want to make it too easy but i do think its important to listen to what the party state says. We have spent a lot of time interpreting it from our own sees but the party state is fairly volume in it goals with the thought on Foreign Affairs and or document number nine, the infamous document number nine, which talks about basically the ideological war between china and the west. I think its fair to say that the party wants to survive. It wants to remain in power, and everything flows from that. And that can either be from a sense of pressure or from a sense of advantage but this is about maintaining the party and therefore the strength of china so that china supports the party if i can put it that crudely; that it is legitimacy and it is both its fulling the party of the social contract that was well give Economic Growth again for in political reform, the reverse of what the soviets tried, has been in many ways although not fully fulfilled by china over the past generation, the second part about returning china to a position of greatness in eight and by extension the world, is where i think the party is working now. So, there is it is what rising powers do. I think theres really interesting debate over the question of does china want to supplant the post world war ii order . Want to get rid of it or coopt it, does it want to take it over for itself in a way . You see it building analogous structures to things that were built by the west such as hey, i truck Investment Bank or the one belt one road. Go back to look at things that the party state has put together but i think its fair to say that it sees itself as a great power, harold not to. And because of that, it is acting in ways to maximize that power or express that power. It often does so peacefully. Does to through diplomatic floarea and sometimes turns testy and does so through trying to get economic advantage and diplomaatic and talk about reciprocity between the out and china and thats he right u. S. Poll, you call principal realism and sea that midout in policy. From china it is actually hierarchy, returning to a quote quoteunquote narl state of hierarchy, what the professor daniel bell calls just hierarchy. Just talk just hierarchy between states. Big states and small states. So the question is from the chinese perspective, at least how do you act responsibly in that hire hierarchical and not less equal. Thats what the party is attempting to do, its in take over territory it believe is is rightfully it such as tie juan or maintaining territory thats strategically crucial like tibet but it is strategic space. The best way to put it thats white you see a pla navy and lets be hospital. They achieved most of their goals already of turning the inner seas into free operate soaps or what 30 years ago was a coastal fort. An extraordinary development. In a very short period of time and because of that it is forcing the other states in region to accept this unequal structure, and then were coming in with a different model. Its debt know vertical model. Its the horizontal model. The states are sovereign and needed to be treat eat quali and equal alliances even if we have more payability and capacity than them. You have the clashing of literally almost in a spatial sense two different models. Thinking but to the term one belt one road which was reveal when it was rolled out and then backed off of out at President Trump made a speech in which he said the have to be many belts and many roads. So it is theyre just all chinese. A modern day tributary system. Coming back to the u. S. And really the multinational response on this. A lot of questions about first whack took it so long and what it business of his . Whoa didnt we see the threat from Chinese Communist party earlier and adapt to it, testifiy asked a question about chinese Information Warfare and says this goetz reciprocity. How do they do Information Warfare and we cant even have a chinese villain in a movie so the gets to hollywood with connection to chinese influence operation. Great report at that time hoover did a year ago and i should make a plug for a wonderful hoover program that is integral on chinese, sharp power, they Larry Diamond and others are working on as well, and then zach had a question. Back in the day we had the u. S. Information agency. And so i fells the question is, why did it take us so long and why are we seem not to be adapting to the information dimension of this and too you have any ideas about how to respond to the pears effort to influence us in such way we dont respond effectively to these various forms of aggression . I know were getting down to the last minutes and this a important question. In term othe public i try to address this in the new china rules which i should have called the new beijing rules but the china rules. So i used that. But i tried to get youre absolutely right if the report our colleague did on the chinese influence operation as touchphone you can get it on he hoover site. Larry is continuing the work, hr is central to it as well in terms of taiwan and the power, because we have woken up to it. Want to be an optimist. A great day here in d. C. , its raining in fact, but i want to be optimistic and the optimism is that we it took us so long to getted right because we were really hopeful this would work out well0. Hearts were in the right place that as make we thought we would bring china the post mao china into the world of the community of nations, get it involved in international organizations, help it develop and become wealthier and then see the benefits of this. And i think beijing fully understand this benefits. Just is unhappy with a more subordinate position within that, and i believe that the party is very serious about saying it is not going to modernize. We see that under xi jinping, modernize in terms of liberalizing. Not going to threat we were liberal rhythm or con soaps direct equal and the like because thats existential for the party. But we were wedded to historical concept that all nations that become part of the world and benefit from it will liberalize in some way. Not going to be having elects like in peoria but they will libellallize in some way and act in cooperative ways abroad, and thats being tested. There is a lot of selfinterest. I do think we really have to look at the role of Corporate America more carefully, but this goes back to the very beginning of American Relations with china when the First American sailor was arrested by ching authorities for a crime that he did not commit and the Merchant Community in 1821, the Merchant Community said take him, we dont care because you told us youll cut trade relation if we dont give you this guy and they took him and executed him. Thats goes back to the selfinterest. What i think is that we learned that selfinterest comes at an enormous price. Billions and billionshundreds of billed of dollars eave year stolen in intellectual property. At the are byte proprietaries information taken that we will never get back. The selfinterest now should shift to understand how to protect yourself. Same thing with the information space. We had 600 confuse shoes institutes around the around and only 28 American Centers that were shut done. It was uneball and by the way in confusionannism, reciprocity is considered the ultimate virtual, the gold ray and say treat others as you want to be treat. Almost word for word from the golden rule. So it is not our idea that you should act equally and treat others equally with. Its a confusion idea but something that i think should be guiding us as we understand now that our hoped for the last 40 years ill wind up with a historic pal porter the hopes for the last 40 years were fulfilled in a china that it is part of the world and much stronger and wealth area than it was and important to our economy, but the deeper hopes were not fulfilled, and we have to understand that were not going back into that first period of hoping that it will change. It is told us where its going and wants to do, and the time for us now to become realistic and to have a policy and a set of policies that worked with all of our friend inside asia to order to protect our interests then put it on a road where hope any at some point in document beijing will fund it course i ill witness alienate and isolate and impoverish. I cant think of better way to end the question and answer period but itll ask you to make some Closing Remarks of indiana app want to sum up the questions and because i think you just responded to them. I think that nick and chris and shelly were discussion about the weakness, is the aggressiveness of the party swing back against them and nadia the point you made frequently is youre competing with china doesnt foreclose on cooperation get gets to your point you just made and the rest of the questions i would say from nick and about the is our navy ready and the questions from others what about our allies in region doing their part . Youre chapter on u. S. , japan and china together is a wonderful chapter. I highly recommend that chapter to peter and clarence and joshua and michael and jack who were schooling put alliances and then on ash is he navy up to it or allied naveies. Chapter 8 where you i love itself because youre historian. So you act as if youre a historian looking back on a future events, and so i recommend that chapter as well, how a confrontation could play out and were seeing some of these flash points come to a higher level of prominence. Its a wonderful book, congratulations on it, and i just tell everybody order it now women just scratched the surface. And what i like to does turn it over to nadia first and any final comments asia residents new gentlemenow politics and then give misha the last word. I think we covered as much as question in an hour i wish we had more time. I would have brought up some of the additional great pars of the book, the chapter on india as well, a really interesting chapter but the role of women in india so encourage the audience to pick it up and read it. I dont have any more to add. Think we had a longer time i would have commented on the usaa question, information statecraft which is how we need be thinking, on the role of allies and part in other words, too, in think what were facing thats been an interesting shift over the past few months, very publicly covid driven shift but a significant one as well so i think an idea for a future panel would be to get more europeans and allies and part in other words from around the wore, australian, japanese, on this type of program to hear from them. So, ill leave it at that. Thank you so much. The final word. Theres so much that we could cover and i think we talked but a lot of i think the good news is we are paying attention and i know congressman gallagher had to run to do a hearing but the work he is doing, the endless frontier bill to boost science in s. T. E. M. And tech, and the new strategy that the white house put out, the strategic approach. It start if was what you did in National Security strategy and then takes it to a position of reciprocity and thats what its going to did us. I think the navy gets it and they understand it. They were warning about the years decade more ago visiting what was then Pacific Command and now indoPacific Command, talking about were losing blue space and water space and how do we react . So i think the pieces were the, its just they were in isolation and now they have been drawn together and the point is to have a strategy. I dont think what whichever administration comes into office in january this is the new road and dot foreclose cooperation with china because we should be thinking but china from a position of strong because we have enorm mose strength it does nose have. It has weaknesses and we have an alliance, unparalleled Alliance Network that china october dream fountain. Chinas al lloyds are north korea and pakistan. We have allies and we need to work with the allies specially japan and australia, deepen the relationship with india. All easy things to say and things we talk about a lot in the think tank world. Want people to think differently. Why the real competition in asia is between china and japan, not china in the United States. Because thats an eternal one in a sense. What u. S. Strategy has been since then 19th strategy. Its not something new. People say we dont have strategy and we dont think strategically, we do and we have thought that way for a very long time, we should be proud of that now conditions change so that the goals or the goal of a free and open indo has not changed since in the 19th century. Theres a lot to worry about, a lot that can go wrong but im heartened now, heartened that people care, that you guys made its priority, that Mike Gallagher is making its a pry export to fair fridays Winston Churchill we always do the wrong thing until we do the right thing at then and theres a lot to do from a bipartisan approach how to deal with china and the broader indopacific. So thank you all, thank you so much for everyone who viewed and took time to watch and for you, hr, nadia, take can tame to join me for this and i really appreciate it. Thanks to you and thanks to all of our viewer, congress mosquito gallagher had to do a vote and says that. Nadia, brilliant jon job facilitating. For all of our veer he go to the hoover website for even more information about this and the many other challenges and tend were facing during this covid crisis and then Going Forward beyond that. So, best wishes to all of you. Hope everything stays well. Best to your and your families its been a pleasure to have your here at the Hoover Institution, have the a great day. Thank you. He joined in conversation with author activist and Harvard University professor cornell west. At 9 p. M. Eastern on ward ward, Washington State congresswoman with watch booktv on cspan2 this weekend. During a Virtual Event hosted by politic and prose become store mav should geoffen described concerns growing awe to cancracy the out. Theres portion over the talk. Institutions are not fix inside a vacuum. We do not actually work on their own. They are entirely dependent on all these enabling conditions. Also dependent on the actors they come up against, and or that act through them. Donald trump is a the way at the treats the courts, treats the law, is the way a Real Estate Developer in new york treats city hall and its regulations. He see its it as an october stack on stack cal and something to on stick cal and something to get around the American Court system is not actually its not sure you can make system that doesnt take into the account that state and continues to function function. So comes down when the first travel ban in the courts, and in 3. 0, basically the way that, again, new york Real Estate Developer would try to get around oh, okay, you want us to call this alley a road so that we have the illusion fine, call it a road, whatever. Thats not how courts were designed to function. And the state that americans have in institutions, werent even called childlike if would call religious. Its states. Its nat belief, its not reliance, its not even meaningful relationship. Its the relationship that doesnt take into account that we all citizen of the country create the conditions in which these institutions function or fail to function. Ask foe question of the election, i try to thread the needle in the book because i have a little problem with the idea that donald trump is an anomaly or solely an anomaly in american politics. And yet i also have real trouble with any kind of determinative narrative. So, kind of predetermined and anomalous. A quantum leap and the electoral system has been erode forgiver long time and the marriage of money and politics which has grown in significance, green in sheer amount of money over the last couple of decadeis what enabled donald trump to happen. So, when you ask how are we going nowhere he have free and fair elects, well, when did we have fro and Fair Elections . What are free and Fair Elections . So, i guess im just avoiding that whole question altogether. What i would rather ask is, is there still a chance well get rid of donald trump through electoral moans . Electoral mean . And the stage in establishing this out tookcracy where its reverse able. Im assuming for the purpose of this discussion were still in the attempt stage of autocracy, and incredibly evil. And what im actually most worried about is that he has very clearly laid the groundwork for disregarding the results of the election if he loses. The book is surviving autocracy. You can see the conversation by visiting booktv. Org. Thank you so much for tuning into our Program Featuring two of our favorite msnbc journal yours jacob soap roof and katy tur. This i first event of our 25th. Its been two years since jacobs story on family separation at the border and children in cages shellshocked america. His reporting on the subject was relentless from the botherrer in texas to washington, dc. Jacobs book, separation, an american tragedy, warns us we need to remember this moment in our history when our government, when our own government,ers to childrennor irparents and scattered them without any