Transcripts For CSPAN2 Peniel Joseph The Sword And The Shield 20240712

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Its really great for the whole family and will include a little comics activity. So we hope youll bring a pen and some paper and come on and join our celebration. So now just a couple of housekeeping notes before we get started on tonights exciting event with Peniel Joseph and brandon kerry. This incident is recorded so you can watch it back. Not every computer loves streaming live video with, so if you are that issue, you can come back and watch the recorded one, or you can share the video with a friend who couldnt make it tonight. West virginia got this lovely little weve got this lovely little chat window open at the bottom of your screen where it says Say Something nice. You can make sit there and say huh or where youre watching from. We will be moderating that chat. 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And finally, while theres absolutely no obligation, right by the chat box at the bottom of your screen, youll see the word donate, and well invest your offering into more virtual programming like this one. So thank you so much. Just so you know, were totally happy to have you here with absolutely no contribution aside from your presence here. Youre all part of the incredibly Supportive Community that is what is sustaining us right now, so thank you for that. And that is the boring part, i swear. Now we get to the good stuff. Im really delighted to turn to our event tonight with Peniel Joseph and Brandon Terry e for the sword and the shield the revolutionary lives of malcolm x and Martin Luther king jr. The great inn rim kennedy wrote its what happens when one of americas greatest historians shines the same light on two of americas greatest figures. Interviveing the worldshattering lives. Peniel joseph is the Barbara Jordan chair in ethics and political values at the lbj or school of Public Affairs and a professor of history at the university of texas at austin. Hes written several previous books on africanAmerican History including stokely a life, and he lives in austin, texas. Hes joined by the assistant professor of african and africanamerican studies and social studies at harvard university. Hes written for npr, huffington post, baltimore son, the nation, time and tv news and more. His broader academic interests include political thought, 19th and 20th century continental philosophy, the philosophy of race and racism, questions of poverty, crime and incarceration and political and social theory and the aesthetics and sociology of hiphop and black youth culture. Thank you so much for joining us virtually tonight, and im going to hand the screen over to you guys. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. All right. Well, it is an honor and a privilege, as always, to be here with my dear brother and somebody i consider to be an enormous inspiration intellectually and personally, dr. Peniel joseph. For those of you who dont know, Peniel Joseph is arguably the founder of this field of black power study. Hes done such pathbreaking work in the studies of black radicalism, and over time hes now become and i think this book really cements it one of the great historians of postwar United States. This is a powerful book that all of us will have to pass through not just to understand, you know, black political life, american life, international questions of politics in the late 20th century, but also our own moment. And i think one of the things that always excited me about you as as a thinker and a scholar is that your history always done with an eye toward the present in a selfconscious way. So im really grateful to be here, and i was hoping that maybe we could start with a broad question which is about the title. The sword and the shield. Up a striking metaphor such a striking metaphor. Why do you describe malcolm x, Martin Luther king, these iconic 20th century figures, in that way, the sword and the shield . Yeah. You know, thats a great question, brandon. One, thanks for doing this and your thoughts, your my brother as well. Your thought has been so inspirational as well. Questions of citizenship, great democracy, youre one of the big [laughter] about this entire field. So im definitely delighted that youre here to discuss this. You know, the sword and the shield, and ill start by giving everybody a shoutout, Porter Square books, my favorite bookstore in the world. I lived in cambridge, sommerville for almost ten years, so everybody has been so kind to me over the years, and its been great. Publishers weekly independent bookstore of the year in 2020, its a great bookstore the, so im really happy to be here. The title. The title is really a metaphor that looks at we usually think about malcolm x as the political sword, and we think about Martin Luther king jr. As the shield for both the black community and the nation. What i argue in the sword and the shield is that we have to reframe how we think about malcolm x and Martin Luther king jr. And when we reframe them, we understand the postwar period of civil rights, black power, anticolonialism, antiwar much, much better. But we also understand the present much better because i think the argument that malcolm is both a political sword and a political shield, and king who we still think of as this great bug, nonviolent teddy bear is a revolutionary. Right. He usedded nonviolence as a political sword and shield. And i would argue hesen influenced i ea a long the withdraw by mall alcohol x in d malcolm x in that thinking. I think we come up. With a really fascinating understanding, a new understanding of democracy in the black radical tradition and really the way we hiv now because, obviously, in 2020 were seeing the continuing impact of what were kindly calling racial disparities, but really were talking about white supremacy, antiblack racism is, right . And when you read the sword and the shield, what i found fascinating was how deep both malcolm and martin were invested in racial flavoring, the political economy of racial slavery. They didnt use words like racial capitalism, but they were talking about that. And how they thought about jim crow, segregation, poverty and this idea of citizenship. And youve written so is well on the idea of citizenship including an anthology with tom michellety. So the so its about reframing the argument that theyre really both sword and shield. Yeah. Especially its such a powerful and resonant image, and one of the things that you do in the book, which is really striking that nobodys done it with this degree of elaboration or sophistication, is to show how they mutually influence each other. In all of these, you know, really striking intellectual e ways when you talk about this point, you brought up a piece of keynes writing that i always try to focus on when i teach but i almost see no one mention when he talks about the homestead act, a crucial part that you parcel out all of this land to white settlers and, of course, that gets bought by whiterun corporations. And you basically are committing two acts of, you know, racial exploitation at the same time. Youre excluding africanamericans from benefiting from the distribution of this land and youre committing a kind of genocidal act against native indigenous peoples. And its like thats not the Martin Luther king thats ten sell silled on stenciled on the statue at the mall. No, not at all. King is a man on fire between 65 and ooh 68, and i think we owe a lot of that to malcolm. And malcolms going to be influenced by king as well. When we think about one of the things i talk about is malcolm x, his idea of radical black dignity, and Martin Luther king jr. , this radical idea of black citizenship and how they come to you need both. And when you think about the radical black dignity, malcolm is different from dr. King in this way, and i talk about malcolm x as black americas prosecuting attorney who becomes the [inaudible] but initially, what malcolm is doing is prosecuting white america, the nationstate the, for a series of crimes against black people, right . And hes saying that those crimes go back to 1619 and jamestown. So before the new york city times pulitzer prizewinning 1619 project, malcolm had his own 1619 project. Malcolm was talking about 400 years of racial oppression which we really hit in 2019, but he was saying it was 400 years there. So when we think about this idea of radical black dignity, malcolm recognized black humanity and didnt want to debate white people about black humanity, right . King doing something else. What malcolm means birdieing anity is really both antiracism, anticolonialism. But the big word for malcolm is selfdetermination. People are going to have the right to solve their own problems, to identify their own problems and sometimes people ask me whats malcolms big policy. Like, what did he do . King had the civil rights a act, the Voting Rights act. What did malcolm x do . My reply is he turned negroes into black people. Thats right. Thats what he did. Globally, he turned negroes into black people. Black and african people. If youre black, youre part of the dais por rah, you could be biracial, multiracial, you identify as black, youre in our community. Youre in. Thats what a malcolm did for us. So when you think about dr. King, dr. Kings notion of citizenship is going to be different. King is a defense attorney. Hes defending white people to black people and black people to white people. And when we think about dr. King, king talking about citizenship thats very robust. Not just Voting Rights, not just the end of racial segregation, but citizenship for him means guaranteed living wage, it means decent housing. He talked about food justice, Environmental Justice. Citizenship for king also means racial integration, and i think that malcolm got the aspect of kings racial integration just wrong. For king it wasnt about he wants to hang out with white folks. King understood that racial integration meant an integration of resources and a redistribution of resources and justice, right . So we think about things like george floyd, when we think about Ahmaud Arbery or sandra bland, those things wouldnt happen in a racially integrated society, right . Because you cant pick and choose in the very specific neighborhoods, the very specific geography who youre going to racially terrorize. We are zip codes that are demarcated as ghettos, and we can occupy those zip codes. So malcolm knew that, but king over time absolutely begins to understand it. The think its a really underappreciated part of the africanamerican philosophical tradition, political thought tradition, that to insist on dignity and insist on the value, the equal standing, equal moral worth of every individual, even when they come wrapped in skin with a lot of melanin, is the commitment to radical political projects, and one of them is a radical transformation of how we think but policing. And so theres a striking scene in your book where you talk about the johnson in 1957, in which the public scene and black consciousness and i was hoping you could talk about that moment and what malcolms legacy teaches us how to think put today when we just lived through a week of especially horrifying and traumatizing acts of Police Brutality and interracial terrorism among those who are fellow citizens and malcolm would say youre not a citizen if people can treat you that way absolutely. The johnson incident in harlem where he brutalized by the police, skull fractured, member of the nation of islam and malcolm really carries a bully pulpit and spreads this case around, very famously when we think but the spike lee malcolm x film with hey the dramatization two incidents, one is 123rd precinct at harlem hospital, where its malcolm and hundreds of members of the nation of islam are backed by a crowd of over a thousand people, demanding medical care for johnson and at one point, malcolm is die manning that medical care and his telling the Law Enforcement that unless he gets medical care, he cant say what is going to happen in terms of the crowd might eye result. Johnson gets the medical care and very famously one member of Law Enforcement says that is too much power for one man to have. So when you think but policing, malcolm x always understood but a he had been incarcerated for 77 months in massachusetts, in massachusetts. [loss of audio] and so policing is a big part of malcolm x really miss his ministry and criminal justice reform. What he is trying to do is this idea of dignity and not just muslims who are black but black folks in new york city being treated with dignity. So he becomes somebody who is part of the Police Community Relations Committee for a time. He tries to push for Police Reform to get a new police chief. King is going to try by 64 as well but interface this between africanamericans or black people and the criminal Justice System is a real, real big part of malcolm xs legacies in ways we dont think about. And one of of the things i thats come in the wake of the george floyd case in minneapolis this week, a lot of commentators who maybe out of a sense of despair or a sense of different kinds of political commitments, say in this country, this country just doesnt deserve any longer the the idea of reformist politics is in no sense justifiable. We can no longer pour our energy and our affect into those kind of projects, and for me, malcolm is such a brilliant, exciting, proponent of that kind of rhetoric, and particularly takes aim at people who following dr. King want to turn that around and say actually in niece these moments, nose despair can moments we still want to love our enemy. Through love, christian love, kind of multiphased, even secular love ethic in politics, we can redeem the american and build a new kind of democracy. So i was hoping you might say a little bit about that point of debate and dissension between them. The idea about love can ones enemies as half to transformation and while malcolm was so afraid of that whoa whether he was right or not. I think malcolm is pushing back on one aspect of the beloved community. When we look at king and thats the great thing but writeing the dual biography. King is talkinglight loving your enemy and also talking but shared sacrifice. Also saying that white identity, white privilege, has to go and we have to have a radical redistribution of wealth and justice and love in the country. I think that part of me message a lot of times malcolm ignore until 1964 where even the ballot or the bullet is looking at radical black dignity and citizenship. When you think but dr. King, dr. King talk but shared loving ones enemy but the larger context for dr. King was really this idea of using nonviolent civil disobedience to coerce the United States into citizenship, full citizenship for africanamericans, for black people, for all people. And so i think that by 64, they start to understand each others language and i see even as early as 63 with birmingham, what malcolm at times ignored that the parts of kings rhetoric that made john f. Kennedy, president kent, president Lyndon Johnson very uncomfortable. Parts that are radical structural transformation and not just reform. King is going amplify the parts much more after malcolms assassination but when we think but the context of george floyd, ahmad arbery, san bra bland, one thing you see from malcolm and martin they realize the criminal Justice System, even in the context of the 1950s and 1960s was a gateway to panoramic injustice. We need a radical transformation not just criminal justice in the out but the way in which the criminal Justice System interfaces with all aspects of democratic institutions, and that guess from public spaces where people are being surveilled in terms of housing, goes for Public Schools that are pipeline to corrections for juveniles and adults. That goes for so many different aspects of our lives. But i think malcolm and martin absolutely understood that. So even though that is a debate, i think over time they both come to realize that theyre on the same side of that. Its really about a point of emphasis, because dr. King is not talking about loving your enemy hes saying that the biggest catastrophe happening in the United States is white racism. Its a way of framing it. I think that the part of the love ethicking holing people accountable, the sense of good will. Really willing the good of the other person, but pushing them to make a transformation which involves as you put it, power fully, coercion and really difficult political struggle. So, when youre saying before remind me of one part of the book he really loved and never heard it put quite this way. You tell the story about Martin Luther king wins the know pel nobel prize and comes home and one of the big celebrations in new york and now he is on mall come x the crown prince of hard legal, malcolm x, and theyre celebrating dr. King in harlem, and malcolm gives this speech where he starts actually complimenting king for one of the rare times does that explicitly and he compliments king on his celebration of the scandinavian societys commitment to social democracy, whether you call it social democracy or democratic socialism, big debate but so i was just curious when you have been talking about king, radical transformation, the expansive notion of citizenship he is working with. How does that fit in these conversations but the economy at this moment . How too you see them converging or there are interesting tensions here on how theyre thinking about the problem of political economy in the late 20th century. I think kings notion of radical citizenship and malcolm republic notion of radical dignity converge. Malcolm is a global notion of human rights and wants to connect the idea of black citizenship in the United States to citizenship in africa, the middle east, and the larger third world, and so when, for instance, malcolm at oxFord University, when he does the union debate he wants to align with all people no matter what color they for change the miserable conditions on the face of this earth. What he says to a standing ovation. Part of what he talked but in the speech is the impoverishment of the africanamerican and the murder of the three civil right workers in 1964, and how that murder really defies the 64 civil rights exact people say the act will be transformative and protect black lives. For dr. King the idea of the political economy of citizenship becomes very, very influenced by the social democracy he does visit in 1964. Starts making the argument for the expansion of citizenship guaranteeing income level that goes beyond the new deal, certainly that go beyond the Great Society, and thats one of the people walk but the war. Certainly the war is a cleavage and breaking point with lbj but one of the big cleavages this idea of impoverishment and the political economy of capitalism says we have to have a certain level of poverty, certain level of homelessness, certain level of misery, and king really pushes back against that. The biggest policy intervention for him is the Poor Peoples Campaign, we have to think but now in 2020 the Poor Peoples Campaign is the first occupy movement. We think but occupy wall street but the Poor Peoples Campaign want at occupy the nation kaz yap control movement. Starting from mississippi in a mule train. King is trying when he sees the young black children with no shoes, and kids with no blankets and in miss no indoor plumbing. And king is in tears and goes to the big ran bin nick ran binnic cal conference and he cant believe how poor people are in mississippi, andy young and anber inauguratey are looking at him like he is really moved and he says to Lyndon Johnson and the u. S. Congress thats all has at the end butt but not bringing a knife or gunner curse words he says he is guess to come and is assassinned in memphis, tennessee, because hes connecting race to class to war and we aring into intersectional in that way. Other folk wells be adding the gender and six eulogy other pieces but king has his own version of intersectionallity and absolutely the political economy of the citizenship really matters now more than ever so the late talk we have had loud medicare for all, ending student debt, housing and ending homelessness for all, this is absolutely convergent with kings motion of cad recall citizenship. What is always so compelling but king and why i keep returning to him as a savior is that he is somebody who one of the rare figures in American History that achieved a level of prominence and influence that he did while also arguing that Something Like free and equal citizenship should take precedent precedence over the dictates of the market. The idea that profit imperatives for capital should demeanor how we make decisions over whether to allocate healthcare to people, homes to people, things like that. May have seen that my daughter just ran in. Were live online, and lots of fun things happen. I add to that is kings idea of citizenship is so expansive, its absolutely and malcolms too connected to the black lives matter movement, movement for black lives policy agenda and immigration and immigrant rights. King doesnt think the guarantees of citizenship stop at the border of the United States. So when you think but folks in the middle east, folks in africa, folks in latin america, south america, the caribbean, haiti, hes pushing to guaranteed Citizenship Rights that are global starting with the domestic but thinking really big that from that perspective there are no immigrant half human rights. Immigrants have should have a level of safety and security that the policy guarantees especially with this nation state is so implicated in whether we think but wars, whether political economy of satellite nations globally. So, that brings me to a feature of the malcolm x, Martin Luther King Exchange that has been criminally overlooked and your book puts front and center which is their internationallallism. Right. So, i wanted to hear you Say Something about this element of how i see them converging. If you bear with me. So, they both see their own moment as a kind of hinge for the american umpire, right . That malcolm seems very concerned about the way in which were intervening in other countries to disrupt democratically elected leaders and violate peoples rights of selfdetermination. You talk about how selfdetermination was such an important concept for him and hes concerned about the way that might boomerang his famous remarked about john f. Kennedy are in part about this, people act like its just a racist quote about kennedy or something but its a part of the whole view of foreign policy, and king is worried, among other things, worried that for us to deal with the kinds of dislocation that the robotics revolution engendered in the economy, for us to deal with this severe social dislocation transformation of the economy we were undergoing then, we needed a massive investment in the welfare state and that we could not do that and be an imperialist nation and to do that would be to court disaster. It seems like that beth of their views have proven prophetic, and that you might think that in International Relations theory and people who study american empire and imperialism, that maybe king and malcolm x should be thought of as great thinkers of the global order and im just curious has to hear you say a little bit more about that and how you want people to think but these figures after your books intervention in that space. I think brandon that these are World Historic figures and i think that they describe the global stage alongside of gandhi and winston churchill. Malcolms understanding of World Affairs really starts in prison. It really started with his father as a young boy, his father is a in omaha, nebraska, and lansing, michigan, and his mother, louise is a gives him a world view of sort of Pan Africanism but in prison he starts to read and study intently really the whole time hes in prison, until the end of his life. So he find about the 1955 afro asia conference in indonesia and is on fire for this idea of radical selfdetermination. He guesses to the middle east for the first time in 1959, and then several weeks there, doesnt take the haj there but he meet one if the sadat, and makes connections with them to the point where malcolm even before he goes joe seas again in 1964 he is a wellknown figure at the United Nations which the surprises people he had access to offices through his contacts, so when i write that malcolm x meets up with king at the u. S. Senate as a statement really is factually true. He is somebody who had met with fidel castro in september of 1960. Met kwame and kuhna in harlem. Met different caribbean leader and kept in contact women the. Malcolm is interested in this idea of a third world internationalism but radical Pan Africanism. This idea that selfdetermination for africa is going to have real benefits for black citizenship domestically and globally. That he is interested in saying we can help each other so we can help the African Union and the africandown can help African Union can help us. When e in 1964 and then july to november 21st, 1964, he is away and going be in tanzania in ghana in nigeria, in cairo, in maybe cpa in mecca, and he tries to make linkages at universities, at different african political kingdoms. He is in the middle east and he is going to be both islamic faith leader and also this secular political leader. One thing we dont give malcolm credit for malcolms notion of not just going to the u. N. And charge the United States withviolation of human rights the civil rights should be a Human Rights Movement is a huge, huge intervention. Its a massive intervention that again were still dealing with this idea of black humanity and malcolm takes it as a given and he is not so much as trying to convince people but trying to gather forces in a coalition that is big enough to make the recognition of black dignity something that infiltrate our Public Policy and political culture. Thats the problem we have here, policy and also our political culture. So when you think but king, king guess to ghana in 1967, seize kwame and kuma being Prime Minister wearing the same humble clothe he wore when he was inconsiders rated. King spends a month in india and i argue in the book that 59 is a crucial turning point bows he comes to believe by going india and seeing untouchables and india and the caste system and the criminalization of poverty is something he is called ton try to obliterate from the faith of the earth. Thats his calling. Usually we think of the king and international with the antivietnam war activism, which is big, but i think the Nobel Peace Prize is big and going to oslo is big, too. He is impressed be social democracy he witness its fir hand and the internationalism of king becomes this not only an antiimperialism but a pro peace mission. This idea that the only way to truly build a Great Society is if we stop warring with each. Other king called its bitter but beautiful struggle. Malcolm as well spoke out against the vietnam war in 1964. So malcolm you talk but prophetic. Malcolm his internationalism at october Ford University and also in paris, also at the and then stokely goes there later. Malcolm is also in england, in birmingham in inning lefthand, visiting all these different places to try to bring together and coalesce this idea of not just civil rights but of human rights and this idea of black dignity and citizenship, and king is doing the same thing on several different angled but both talk about human rights, especially as a political thought evolves. Let me dish want to make sure we have time for questions from the audience. So, im just going to ask you one thing that you can respond to very briefly and from a personal place actually. Talk but a bitter but beautiful struggle. Obviously the most bitter thing in their lives is the suffering they had to endure to take on the vocations they did. These were in many respects obviously very poplar . Prominent men but they were lonely. They had difficult marriages. They were harassed and surveilled by the government, betrayed by allies, and eventually they beg were murdered. I was thinking a lot about this. This may sound bizarre but i hope you see where im coming from. Is a watched the video of George Floyds killing, i thought about the people witnessing it, and what it means to witness a murder like that. And the amount of fear that comes in that even when you might have people outnumbered, they have outnumbered the police, may have been able to overpower them enough just for the man to catch his breath. Right . Theres a level of fear there about the consequences of acting that way. And that its a fear that is bred in part through our iconography of these assassinations. The terrorism behind the assassinations has not left us and im just curious for you as a black man, historian, somebody who spend more time with these figures than almost anybody else alive, how do you deal with the trauma of it . How do you deal with the message that was meant to be sent by their killing . As you go around sharing their thoughts for a new generation. Thats incredibly profound question, brandon. What i think is that i try to look at them through the lens of these are realists, theyre radicals, but not as tragic figures. Its figures who provide us hope even hoyle agree with you that they show what happened in that specific Historical Context of thieves political active gists and mobilizers who are speaking truth power. The consequences are you dont live to see your 40th birthday and sometimes people blame malcolms death say that it was and kings death was a lone white terrorist. What we understand when we dive deeper, these are state sanctioned murders. Come on. So, theyre perceived at threats to the existing racial Political Economic cultural status quo. The hope we fine in them is their personal sincerity, political interesting integrity and unapologyityic love for black people. Hold on to that because i think that they both had a hard won optimism that is a part of their legacy because they continued. Sometimes beth had dreams of people wanted malcolm to just request overseas, stay in africa, and king had dreams of or fantasies where he said im just going to become a preacher and good to a Seminary School and just teach. Im getting all these Death Threats mitchell wife, my kids in danger. Malcolm felt the same thing but the continued to press on very courageous, never gave up and i think that is the biggest lesson i take from them, is that personal sincerity, malcolm famously sid his credentials were his sincerity. He had no university degree, and the political integrity, both of these folks are unimpeachable politically and the unapologetic love for black people. They walked the walk. They werent been the scenes get talked to the poorest black people whether they were in baltimore or alabama or mississippi or los angeles and we know what black people are talk about, people dont like to take photo ops, people who are gang mens, former heir incarcerated. People who have missing teeth because the dont have healthcare then or now and this who is they emjayce thats the example i take from them. That as a bitter but its a beautiful legacy and one i think we can all take from your brilliant book. Thank you so much for this. Im going to open up for questions. Some terrific questions here. One which i actually know from the book but it would be great to hear you brief live Say Something about it because i want to get a couple of these in, we have chris asking you about baird ruston, so, many of the audience may not snowbirds rustdown but one over the figs in between these two. Baird ruston is the radical black social democratic openly gay pacifist, gandhi quiet, member of fellowship of had gone to prison as a Conscientious Objector during world war ii. Kings arrogant throughout the 60s. Also somebody who mentored carmichael. Besides being the organizer on the march on washington in 1963 is one of the single most influential figures of the postwar we think about non violent civil disobedience. An ambition for social democracy in the United States that would be interracial that will be multigenerational and be part of that community. So its really important. Another peace i love about your book is how come you talk about the debates with malcolm with all these different figures and how they come into it all worked up to debate malcolm x, the bogeyman. But they end up liking him so much that behindthescenes and become his friends. They cant help but be taken in by his charisma attic personality, the obvious quality of his mind and they spend a lot of time trying to bring him along in different ways. In all of those encounters have a mutual transformation and the people taken seriously. That is by the greatest part of the book. You are exactly right hes learning from them and they are learning from him. Malcolm is intellectual, hes a lifelong student, he is charismatic you got to real sense of humor with that he is one of the funniest people. King had a sense of your behind doors and we know king because of how he was raised. And being super serious in and in that way. Malcolm is playing with the white folks, black folks hes coming from a different tradition and so its very interesting who malcolm x really is beyond that image of the fierce mouse trap malcolm x. I love the malcolm x joke whether porta comes and says mr. Malcolm x are you against integration . He said i dont have to be against integration white people are. [laughter] thats true this idea of racial separatism is not racial segregation. He says that in 1963 says a james foreman. Theres integration youll have to march or demonstrate as long as young black children should not have to be escorted by the one heard third airborne the military of little rock. He is saying we are not citizens, 13, 14th, 15th should have decided this and he said lets build up some parallel institutions because this societies and not allowing us in. He not question we have from black hammer is that malcolm x tried to communicate with Martin Luther king several times via telegram. They invited him to things they wanted to meet up. Why do you think king refused to respond to those overtures . King had more to lose, right . King understood the fact, and malcolm said with he met in selma he just spoken he was in selma on fibroid fourth and february 5, 1965 and doctor kings and jails we cant see impaired he tells caretta i am not here to hurt the movement, i admire your husband. I admire him and i want the white folks those in society if they must elect king have what he wants ob other forces to deal with. So between him meeting would not have helped king in that Historical Context. Pays to be perceived by the mainstream is someone who can negotiate with kennedy, Lyndon Johnson hes a noble prize waiter hes not trying to meet and lose that leverage they has by being the alternative to malcolm x. Post malcolm expectation he meets up and he is the man on fire because all bets are often part of the reason all bets are off because the nationstate becomes more repressive the high point of really 63, 64, 65. Unsold king who is a student of history, a student of politics, an activist comes the sea he actually has to go for broke and talk about the depth and breath of racism theres no more meetings with Lyndon Johnson. He did not show up at his funeral. Because of the time, jackie kennedy, hubert humphrey, richard nixon, bobby kennedy, they all go to doctor kings funeral the only person that doesnt go as a Vice President thats because by then they had broke it irrevocably. The king assigned the Great Society, war on poverty, that march 15, 1965 we shall overcome speech, the Howard University commencement when is it enough but none of its enough. Not by a longshot. And he was right, it was not enough. We look at those high points and citizenship for black people, collectively is still not been achieved. Student. Two questions i want to try to lump together. There about the present. One of us is asking us to think through what leaders today, but figures today, what Movement Today are channeling the spirit of the ideas of these leaders. Whats needed in this moment . I got to be concerned about the future on whats known of racial equality but democracy itself. We live in a time of severe inequality. This is a kind of vulnerability to this pandemic thats of bringing the cost of it immediately to bear, right . Its unavoidable suffering. Because of material circumstances and the ways in which, we talked about this a little bit before heading the greenroom, but even the poorest people being subjected to the pandemic but the people are being coerced into working as well off. And they deliver for amazon, the meatpacking plant, but not control for the well off. Stu mack who is handling these ideas for the president . How can we where is the right path to turn given the severity of the obstacles we face . So i think the optimist in me says many people are challenged. Those are very comfortable doctor king you look to people like William J Barber their North Carolina only bay should check out the great work that that movement is doing. The thing about malcolm x and politics with a real edge of thinking about movements of black lives in black lives matter theres a for the social movement that were identified black female activists within and so its very much this idea of intersexual justice that shut down major parts of the United States in 2015 and 14. Thank say your name you think about crenshaw and this idea of intersection altitude with the race, gender, class, sexuality. Identity. I also say that people are marching and the women are marching. And to and go in violence lgbt cute lead social movement as well which black lives matter is a part of. Where we go from heres a great question. I think king in this radical revolutionary nonviolent civil disobedience is usually important tactic. Still in our time i think what we have not done is a really deep truth this idea of citizenship we have to have a narrative where we admit has not been achieved. It doesnt mean that you are being a downer at the party if youre telling the truth. There is a story so martin could run or walk. [inaudible] so he could win so your children can fly, that sounds great. Thats a bedtime story and all the knickers are suffering its your fault. Thats basically what they said that we have to be real Truth Tellers we have to be bold Truth Tellers we talk about the depth and breath of democratic dysfunction. This precivil war america, happening right now in addition with the federate flagwaving 19501960s. So we are at the precipice of think the hope i find this actually in the example of king and malcolm x. In the contemporary black women and men and boys and girls along with our allies who are really struggling to build that beloved community. I think we can struggle weve got to organize i say it in the book the power is absolutely great and transformative. That something we have to admit, right . Theres against equality and injustice is sort of a public the only way to defeat them is not trying to arm yourself, stop trying to say its another black man get shot you should arm yourself and somehow youre going to win that gunfight. I dont think that is the way to go pretty think the way you go is what king did and what then malcolm understood you have to do is you have to coalesce your own forces, your own power base to achieve that dignity and citizenship. You also have to be truthful about the dangers that we are being exposed to. Everything from the real intricacies on that federal Justice System we think about the Environmental Justice movement. Race has to be the center of all of those. Right . Because it is at the center. Everything you are talking about in terms of the frontline Public Service workers in public with black votes and Meatpacking Industries races at the center of everything. Technology, the environment, everything from Domestic Violence criminal Justice System immigration so we have to be honest but if we are honest and absolutely there are enough people out here who want to build really, i go back to that i think james mentioned the communities what we need. He said that sacrifice to be shared is not saying that its just black people are going to sacrifice. White supremacy needs to be obliterated and theres going to be a loss. When you lose the privilege of theres a loss when you and patriarchy for men its a loss if you and completely dominating our policies as a loss. Doesnt mean were going to have a loss but imagine the people are well off theres very few didnt have exorbitant influence on our policy. So everyone is going to lose some aspect of privilege. We can build a community i think malcolm example gives me that hope. So that is a powerful note to end on and one that brings it home to each of us as individuals. This part of the records we are still working through in the wake of their fascination. Have a loss . Right . What are we willing to lose now . And what can we gain through coming to reckon with loss in a particular kind of way . Youre giving us a really bright path through, for me one of the greatest losses of the 20th century two of our brilliant leaders who were murdered and manipulated. They were manipulated by a policy that wasnt ready still isnt ready 50 years later to reckon with what they said and youre helping us get there. I want to thank you. I hope all of you watching know how hard this brother is working with the breadth and depth as he is going theres not a lot of people right below us on a screen please click that you will not be disappointed. The hard copy, audio version, if we get the hard copy because we want to support porter books. The pickup is available, thank you so much for all think all of you for coming. This has been amazing. So this is really been great, thank you. Think i think we could all continue to listen to you to talk all night. The good news is there is a whole book full of your thoughts on this very topic. So i really encourage you all to pick it up. Before you joined us brandon and i were just saying this is a book that will stand the test of time. A bunch of you were saying in the comments overhear how this really speaks to the moment. I think both of those things are true. Have book that is both enduring and is also important right now really kind of remarkable its a sweet spot. So thank you for being here is been a terrific moderator. Thank you for all of you for joining in this evening. I really hope we can continue to come together as a community and listen and learn from each other. With that i will just say thank you all again and good night. Thank you for joining us. So to the bookstore. And now it is book tv on cspan2. Fortyeight hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. Television for serious readers here are some programs to watch out for. On her Interview Program after words, democratic congresswoman from the state of washington talks about her life and political career. Princeton university africanamerican studies professor applies James Baldwin writing to the current conversation on race in america. And vanity fair contributing editor howard bloom talks about the fatal and aci flaw in 1943. For more information or visit booktv. Org. So recently book tv interviewed a republican senator mcsally of arizona reflected on her life and path to becoming the first female pilot to fly combat missions in the United States air force. Many of us can have dreams like i did and many can relate to this right out 2020 maybe your plans were derailed . Many peoples have been because of this pandemic. But took a route because he still did not change a law it was not fair it was against the law even though i graduated higher than others who performed less, i still could not be a Fighter Pilot because i was a girl. So i took an assignment to be an instructor and was not a glamorous job, but it gave me the opportunity, turning pedestrians into pilots theyre often putting you in danger situation and puking all of you. But its important to work. People usually graduating high in the class didnt take apart i thought was a chance to be to keep building my airman ship, keep excelling, keep growing in my experience as a pilot and keep the door open that if they change the law and the policy, law was changed with the policy wasnt very phallic is going to happen soon ill be ready and leaning forward in building my experience thats exactly what happened the door opened and i was in the right place at the right time with the right experience. So i encourage the readers what is your t37 . I look back and had i not been derailed initially i would not have been the position to actually have broken the barrier been the first woman to fly in combat. Sometimes you cant see that a detour is actually taking you on the path to your destiny. That was my experience. To watch the rest of this interview visit our website booktv. Org. Shirts for senator mcsally or the title of her book, dare to fly using the box at the top of the page. Okay welcome everybody live a really great session here it is really a celebration of a brilliant, timely new book and a time for us to have a really important discussion about what is going on and a critical region of the world. Of course the start of todays performance is the author of that great book, Michael Osler and who is a tremendous historian scholar of temporary asia and he is a distinguished fellow here at hoover. He is also a great