Booktv, television for serious readers. All right. Hello, everybody, and welcome, good evening. Im nell pepper and thank you for joining us virtually tonight on behalf of Harvard Book Store im delighted to introduce this Virtual Event with adam goodman and his book this dedepore taste addition machine. Deportation machine, through virtual eye vend like tonight Harvard Book Store continues to bring authors and their work to our community and our new Digital Community during the challenge times. Every week were hosting events here on the crowdcast page and as always our Event Schedule appears on the website at harvard. Com slicker events and you can signed up for the email newsletter and browse our shelves from home. This evenings discussion will conclude with time for questions. If you have a question for our speakers at any time during the event go to the ask a question button at the bottom of the screen and well get through as many as time allows. 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Adam goodman teached in department of history and the latin american and lat teen nope studiedded premier at the university of imat chicago himself writing on immigration history and policy u. S. And and mexican politics appeared in outlets such as the washington post, the nation and the journal of american history. We will be join in conversation by novelist and journalist Francisco Goldman whose work has won waivereds in awarded in the United States and abroad. Hell be discussion adam residents new book the Deportation Machine which trailses the long and troubling history of the u. S. Governments systemic efforts to terrorist and expel immigrants over the past 140 years. Adam goodman examines hour federal, state and local officials have targeted groups for expulsion from chinese and europeans at the turn of the 20th century to Central Americans and muslims today. Greg praises among the many books trying to make sense over the current moment this one stands out. Goodman describes a machine that for more than a century would go of itself, put in perpetual motion by a caustic combination of racist ideology, vigilant tier imcommunity bureaucratic momentum. This book is essential reading and so now im pleased to turn things over to tonights speakers, the digital podium is yours, adam and francisco. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Adam, lets just jump in and get started. Sounds good. Good to see you. Strange new way. Talking how long ago it seems we were having dinner and hanging out here in mexico city, back in december. A lifetime ago. All right. So, the subject of immigration, is one that obviously became the great hot button issue, something that had so many of us in turmoil and enraged and concerned because of trump and stephen millers immigration policies most of all. Right . We got used to seeing immigration be such a constant sort of front page issue. I think some people were aware of became aware of problems with immigration politics during the barack obama administration. Right . It was probably his greatest failure in some ways. Most people agree. But what about the rest . He did something most people have no idea was there ever a time when immigration u. S. Immigration policy was great . The golden age of u. S. Immigration policy . Have you had that fill is in on the key the history of this republic, how i know this is one of the things your book dives into, what do you want to tell us about the history of immigration in this country . Thank you. Thanks to nell and Harvard Book Store for hosting. When i lived in cambridge i was a member of the store and i hope youll all support them and thanks frank for being here as well. On of the books revelations thats punitive immigration policies did not emerge under the administration of trump nor barack obama nor george w. Bush nor bill clinton for that matter in the 1990s. Im build ago then work of many historians who have documented this history and trying to connect as well to work of social scientists and journalists and writers have the have covered the history in recent decades, but the United States in the last 140 years has had this tension between a nation that welcomes immigrants, theres that mythical imagination of the country as a nation of hisser and the nation that deports immigrants and i trace that long history in the book, and i start the book with that very question. What kind of nation is the United States . If we think about the fact that during the last century, u. S. Officials have deported more people than have been allowed to stay is in country on a permanent basis. I think that raises some really uneasy questions perhaps but important ones for us to grapple with to understand what is happening today as deportation has been in the headlines seemingly nonstop until two months ago. But at the same time, to see how the bureaucratic capitalists and racist imperatives that have driven this machine have changed over time and thats what the book does. It traces the targeting of Different Group of people over near lay century and a half and the different mechanisms officials have relied on to force, coerce and scare people out of the country in addition to exerting control over those individuals who are noncitizens, as well as citizen and permanent residents, family members who remain in the country, and that is what the book is doing. Its a broad history that i think raises profound questions about this countrys identity and how maybe a larger question as well what it means to be american. Whens to the idea of excluding people first take hold . The book starts thats a great question. One thing that i was able to do as i mentioned trace the long history over 140plus years and the history of exclude incarcerate policies, the history of expulsion, through the defendant means of deportation which maybe we can success, that dates back before the founding of the country. If we think of deportation in the modern sense, the contemporary deportation regime fits into a longer history of expulsion and suburb nation of Different Groups of people, often times we think of the history of indian removal. Subordination and the cop confident of native American Land and the history fits into a broader story and longer timeline but the late 19th century i focus and start the story in 1880s and the 1890s when the federal government takes control over immigration. And in part thangs to congressional acts acts and supe Court Decisions which give the federal government the exclusive authority to decide who can enter, who can remain, and then who has to go. So, chinese exclusion. In the 1870s and 1880s stretching until the middle of the 20th century. I trails that history from the 1880s, up until 20192020 essentially but its that time in the late 19th where the story begins. The late 19th century, this discover how important it was to deport was it mainly focused on the west coast with chinese immigrants or were there parallel moms to exclude people that were pursued with equal fur very. The different in the way the chinese were treated in the late 19th, 19th center and look at the large cities like new york and chicago and the worry about radical anarchists from germany and Eastern Europe and other immigrants. How what was different about how it evolved or similar. Important question. We can even start before there of chinese exclusion. Targeting of irish immigrants. The east coast. And the middle of the 19th center, and actually men of the most fervent antichinese activists were. Thes from irish family. The chinese were seen as a threat economically to many irish immigrant lab youres and the u. S. Laborers and also as a racial and cultural threat. The rhetoric here in the newspapers, in many documents and speeches and proclamation about the threats chinese immigrants posed was economic and also racial and cultural and fears and threats we could recognize today that have tracked to other group. You brought up the point of political radicals, eastern southern europeans, the red scare, after during and after world wore 1, re world war i, the russian revolution, prominent cases like emma goldman. Those were crucial and theres an important become coming out called threat of descent. Set goesdissent. One of the interesting findings of my book, the Deportation Machine, is that it although u. S. U u. S. Officials have targeted many people for many Different Reasons throughout u. S. History, many Different Groups, nine out of testify ten deportees is mexican. This is kind of an important revelation, its not surprising that mexicans have been targeted but such a do is proportionate level. Really eyeopening and crucial in understanding how it is that mexicans come to be seen as proto typical illegal ill yeps quoteunquote. One of the most staggering discoveries of your book when you say that, nine out of ten of americas history have been mexicans. I dont think many of us thought that before. Fining out about you book, which makes me wondering withbe get into that suspect the real Hidden History of the book, this book does represent a Hidden History, new way of looking at immigration. What we are expecting to when you decided to you wanted to write beaut bow become of the history of immigration in the United States, what were your expectations what did you expect to find and what was your process and what kind of discoveries did you make and even adventures in research did you have that made you led you to think pout it in a different a different way and carried you through the book . Thats a wonderful question and gets into a little bit more of the story i recount as well. I was interested in learning what our history on deportation. I taught high school before i went to graduate school. On the u. S. Mexico border. Francisco in much earlier it was what it means we can. The foundation of the United States. In the Research Process was a challenge i would say. I cast a wide net in types of trying to tell a broad story over a long period of time. It is not grounded in any one place. Expand the United States as well pass into mexico. Elsewhere. But one of the things that i encountered were several challenges. Kind of roadblocks. To researching the story because number one, on from 1957. The sources in the immigration of National Archives in washington dc. They dry up. After 1957, the source is not available to researchers in part because some were destroyed in part someone not catalogued or so protected by freedom of information act. That presented a challenge. I was hoping to go past 1957. In the other thing that was really difficult was the fact that one of the key findings in the books was that most implications throughout history have been through coercive means. If the administrative expulsion. And they are not documented in the archives. In part, it was on purpose. So u. S. Officials departed tens of millions of people through what were called voluntary departures. There was nothing voluntary about them. I couldve related in two the book that if you threaten somebody with a long sentence of for a couple of decades, chesler they might take a plea deal for three or four years. Also departures are similar and that there are lesser consequences to go along with him compared to formal deportation which might carry a five euro tenure 20 your brand on reentry. Lifetime ban on reentry. And you also might spend indefinite time in jail while youre waiting for your case to be heard. Chances are slim that you will when that case. And instead a lot of people were coerced by officials into leaving the country. Appearing to leave remaining that harrowing process. But in part that was giving up any kind of due process. Anything for the immigration service, the mean that they didnt have to pay for hearings. And others didnt have to pay for the creation of voluminous records. Not having any paper towels part of the plan. And then the question of how you write a history that was designed to leave no paper trail. And i answer became too, was right it really slowly. And through archival work that i did in the United States and mexico. In some kind of wellknown archives and in other places the board also alone. Like institutional archives and hud all of the records in a storage unit along the 110 freeway in los angeles. Art the Mexican GovernmentMigration Institute has archives in an unmarked warehouse in mexico city. Piecing those history together. And then do a lot of statistical number. And speaking to people, is interested in the history of deportation but also in how immigration policies would affect peoples lives. So i wanted to get is to that as well. And speaking to people the u. S. And mexico that it could. Francisco what is that moment like when you get to the research and you realize theres this Hidden History. And its not what the deportation is. In the other kind of deportation is just as important. In devastating effective which is voluntary and coercive. It is not leave a paper trail. To come to that conclusion. What sort of eureka moment. Adam is a good question. It is one that i thought about a lot. A lot of legal scholars and perhaps our government officials and journalists the matter. They really have a narrow definition of what constitutes deportation. And it is the form of deportation which has been through a judge but thats become must less common in recent years. So just pushing against the running arms and what it meant. I kinda met with a lot of resistance at different points. And the same time, i saw this official, the apprehension of people writing they were detaining them in some cases. And forcibly employing them inhumane conditions. Punitive conditions. And this was through supposedly voluntary means. So the archival product records, i saw that the evidence showed me and told me that there was nothing voluntary about this. We cannot accept the government from the definitions. We need to understand what it meant from the evidence. Qualitative and the quantitative sense and that in turn raises crucial questions. But being skeptical and questioning the governments definition of what it means to report someone. And willie steve is like dimension, 85 and 90 percent of people had been deported through these other means, voluntary archers. And through self deportation campaigns. Meant to scare people out of the country. He supposedly on their own. I think we understand deportation, and in response to some kind of course or fear campaigns, by the federal written perhaps by ordinary citizens and some accommodation of their upgraded that we can get a much better sense of deportation is reach as well as the fact that this whole system is built on Discretionary Authority. Individual officers, or low level officers that are part of an institution, that can only be described over time as being racist and anti mexican. And we certainly seen recently the black lives Matters Movement in the street across the country and beyond. The problems with giving extraordinary Discretionary Authority through lowlevel officials. Whether they are police officers, on the city streets or immigration agents. That is kinda built into the system. Francisco if i dont understand what you mean by self deportation is a policy. Give me an example. Living in the 1950s or 60s or 70s read and mexican in the southwest. How do i experience things that will be make me self deported who decides who should be something i will have to deal with how does that happen. Adam cell deportation, its difficult to calculate or quantify. How many people left in response to this tactic. Its crucial that we recognize it as part of the Deportation Machine. What is look like. It could be threats of violence. So the late 19th century, the theres an extraordinarily apocalyptic violence. In taking people across the u. S. West mostly. And another places, from the earliest campaigns that a document in the book were from that period of time. In which people used economic boycotts. The chinese businesses, threats and intimidation to get people to hire chinese laborers and also the first violence. The ever present threat of violence to encourage people to leave. And ultimately, if you lead by such and such a date. Will then we will come in for throughout. More recently we have seen scare tactics through the media read through twitter. Through other means through Public Officials to increase people to leave the room. Supposedly for their own benefit and to avoid apprehension. And ive also seen really punitive laws of the local and state level. To show me your papers in arizona. About a decade ago. So its just pure profiling. So the idea behind those initiatives were a few margaret lives so miserable the United States and they will decide to leave on their own. That description of leaving on their own. But it was to push people out of the country in a way that they wouldnt necessarily event had any contact with unofficial. And that emerged under these same pressures and limited budget and immigration bureaucracy officials wanting to expand their individual powers well is the power of the agency as a whole. And its been parted with the book is been able to deal with us to show up in operation enforcement has been a and about expanding state power worried and the authority of the bureaucracy. Francisco how has the racist language that is one of the weapons for deportation. Has that gotten the work force, has evolved, untried. For the last three years. Adam i think the last three years, we have a really extraordinary example. Fear campaigns, scare tactics. And wrap it up into very high levels. Maybe not unprecedented but perhaps. And certainly unprecedented compared to the last few decades. But one of the things that struck me about this book and working on the research over the course of the last decade was that often times i find things in the archives the money talking about chinese migrants in the late 19th century. Or maybe europeans in the 20th century are mexicans in the middle of the central time. And horrifying racist things. But not struck todays off of those documents. And present to them to you. Chances are they will be next to impossible. Then i could tell what time. There were from. And there was an amount of consistency or continuity might say about the targeting of evidence and in part, control those groups and exploit the labor they provided. And that we as a country have needed since our founding. But that is a constant. They have targeted and then perhaps some cases, the reason. It was political, racial, cultural, economic. The mix that it played this changed over time. But if target has been consistent. And perhaps because its a lot easier to point the finger at someone else. That is to face the cold hard fact that there are many issues that we have not worked out of dealt with as a country. And we dont want to. Francisco in a really fascinating chapter. Deportation in itself is makes good business. I was even aware of this until very recently. Last year is doing some research of my own. Guatemala, and other information in massachusetts. Do you to meet all of these young people. With electronic bracelets, i was assume were from the government they were not. Basically they were loaned to them, and put them extremely in debt so that they could be released and would be years and so they would be able to pay the back if ever. Its vile. And in your chapter, will that is always been a part of it. Ways to make money. Off of your book the Deportation Machine. Adam am glad you brought that up. One of the chapters of the book looks to the business of deportation. In the human cost pretty and it raises the question about how how are people deported. What is it like to be deported. Who is involved. In making the immigration policy and implementing the policy. And we find its not just a question of domestic politics. Or Foreign Relations or negotiations. But in many cases, ente often corrupt. Private forprofit businesses are involved in making and implementing differential policy. So i look at the Transportation Companies more than anything. Starting in the earliest 20th century and moving forward that have profited off of misfortune of migrants. In a trace the history from use of buses and trains and boats and planes. And really more than anything, on a campaign in the mid 1950s. It was referred to as the boat. In which private mexican companies. They transported back to 50000 mexicans across the gulf of mexico. In the mid 1950s. These transportation committees would take bananas from mexico to places like alabama. For some it in some cases then return to mexico deportees. Nesting cargo holds. Mr treated as cargo. They were human cargo. A way to maximize their profits which in turn served an ulterior for another purpose for immigration officials. And that was to punish the migrants. To discourage them from returning to the United States. And this was prevention. By the separation of them Central Americans. And separation of family. And they tried to discourage people from coming to the United States of the will build of the militarization of the usmexico border. As the 1990s decade since. Pushing people out into the deserts and more disparate to dangerous areas. Nick never stopped migration. They have exacted an extraordinary imitable. List one quote there will always stick in my mind from an 1950 spout this boatlift operation. From the commissioner of immigration services. He was one of the infamous deportations in the history. The boat was that mexicans a the boatlift like the its holy water. And this was no question about it meant to be punitive meant to exact pain and to discourage people from returning. And i think this raises larger questions in turn about what we mean when we think about the idea of the typical immigration experience. And i would say we perhaps do not think about that at all. Not one single experience but for many people, what is clear from the research that i have done, the state sanctioned violence, this very much a part of that history. Something that we have not fully reckoned with. Francisco what really struck me and had an echo of what is happening and communities of color, black and immigrants generally. Back then in the 50s when they were doing those boat deportations. It allows officials to speak in a dehumanizing way about the people deported. Theyll say things like, our economy, we need to get good jobs to our own native workers. They talk about these people as if theyre less human. They are animals. The move of the physical animal nature. Is the fact that they can be deported like animals. And we draw attention to the fact that they never even slept in a bed. This is what they are used to. There used to be putting these areas where it stinks and treated this if they were less than human. Look at these people. They are in cages. This is how we see them. Is that we want you to see them. Instead of raising the mutation, make the pomposity because people fear the kind of know what is it. They feel kind of contempt for people that they seem being treated like animals. What happens and then finally, i think this had a lot to do with policing was done in this country. To brutalize somebody, and somehow the active brutalizing, a black male in the streets. It somehow turns him into something of himself read and i think that is kind of the weight a lot of the cruelty transmitted to us. But then something happens. As we saw over the last few weeks. Something happens and finally people say wait a minute. And weve seen this extraordinary really unprecedented awakening in this country over the last few years. That eight year ago would not have been possible. Something changed. When we look at the situation that migrants in this country, and the quality in the ways that they have been treated. What happened in the border over the last couple of years, but horrible. But we saw nothing like that kind of nationwide upright rated how do people, what is the path of resistance and National Resistance will be. How do people organize to resist Something Like this coercive deprecation kind of cool system system that youve also described. What is come from. I know he wanted to talk about that. And you had something that you wanted to read read but to that. Adam i appreciate the question. Listen briefly before writing a few paragraphs from book the dehumanization of the result racial agitation. The other end. On the migrants. A lot to do with u. S. Policies and laws. In the ways in which they discriminated against and exclude people and not treated as full members of the society read but as a source of labor but not as members. Theres also also important class dimension. Lots of records where not the u. S. Officials, suddenly they were racist in describing migrants in the way that you mentioned. Also mexican officials would describe mexican Migrant Workers in the same terms. No smart by opening away. I think that is an important point. At the same time, forcing consistently is that there is an uprising in a mutually on board the ship. People have had enough. This vote is okay for cargo. It is not okay for humans. It is not fit for human beings. They did organize as we have seen more recently the struggles the more of our people have, i think the better off they are in the better chance they have of winning some of those seemingly impossible struggles. But a lot of times is one of the lawyers involved in a case and read about in the book, history has a way of surprising the complacent. And i think what were seeing is that today. But i will just give you the opportunity to read from the fifth chapter the book which will simply is hiding against the machine and streets and in the courts pretty this the dawn of expulsion. Like the in the mid to late 1970s. When immigration efforts are really cranking up. People are being targeted freedom or more. Attitude 900,000 people year are deported read and starting the late 1970s and going itself the 2000s. On a constant basis. I think this is helpful to understand the current era that we are as part of as well. So of air and not been working long on wednesday when someone in the department of the series got of california should company outside los angeles repealed, is here. Early that morning, after a planning meeting, and their Downtown Los Angeles office, 40 investigators filed into at least eight mans one bus and headed east to their target. They arrived a little bit before 8 00 a. M. And after Company Executive had given them permission to conduct a surveys, agents walked off all of the exits. The front door leading out to the employee parking lot of the north facing windows. The loading dock gate. Those around back. With billing secured, three to four investigators entered the factory and fanned out in helping to avoid detection. The 22 yearold tucked himself out of sight. As he did, they just circulated throughout the massive 62500 squarefoot plant. Indiscriminately questioning the workers and asking them if they had papers. They arrested men women taking down their information and handcuffing some. Pushing others. Soon after the radio started, to agents from supervisor jay l group approached 17 yearold lopez and workstation. When she did not respond him a to their inquiries about whether she had papers, they took hold of her arms. One on either side of the 5foot 2inch woman. Once outside the factory, and investigator structure bag and then shot her under the bus. It was already packed with her coworkers. At ten of 5 00 a. M. From the operation run down, plainclothes investigator shined his flashlight into the large container. I see body here. I was 20 and another agent pulled fiveyear from his hiding place and handcuffed him and put them out to the waiting vehicles. Nine this investigators return to Downtown Los Angeles this morning with 119 employees in custody. By midafternoon, they had coerced most of the people for this voluntary departure form to make them sign it no more than nine hours after the rate its hard become half of the workers, some 20 foreman and all of the 35 women in the group, were aboard government buses and where they would be deported to mexico read but the buses never made it to the border that day. Immigration officials but they didnt know at the time, was that the agents loaded the detainees onto the buses and a coalition of immigrants come, and lawyer activists. And convinced a federal judge. In the rest of that chapter goes on to tell the story of that one struggle at the shoe factory. It was a victorious struggle in the ended which more than half of the workers the father cases, and 30 portion, and the canceled. In a class action suit moved forward in the years following. Fourteen years later. After they took the stand. The court ruled that the ins officials had to get the migrants notification of rights their miranda rights. Before having them in establishing their deportability. This is a tremendous victory that affected up to 1 Million People but it started with 60 shoe factory workers and their allies. The stories just one example. The people throughout history of constantly organized against deportation and punitive immigration policies. And try to understand first and foremost how the machine works. And find sweet points and then apply pressure to them. And those things are constantly changing. And without struggle, working at the machine as well as immigration officials that are recalibrating and changing their policies and regulations. Its dynamic. That is something in some sense, shows the disc the situation today in many years. Francisco we cant predict what history will do. It surprises us. But what would a National Movement for Immigration Reform look like. Adam wonderful question. If i had the answer. I probably wouldnt be here. I think that its really important to have all possibilities on the table right now. There are changes. In the as policy changes, could be paid to something card that exists. To be more humane. Providing more pieces for laborers. It will continue coming to the United States. Thinking about migrants as part of the United States because they operated they all survived between us and them supposedly. We need to break it down from the getgo. And also taking into account historical relationships. In the United States history as well as demand for labor from mexico and other countries. I think some of those views make a tremendous difference. Nasa think that we should think beyond that. As a whole new immigration system. Maybe it comes about and maybe doesnt. Never once thought on punitive policies. And its really isnt a Service Provider as opposed to the force majeure policing agency. Francisco is it time to go to questions. Thank you so much to both of you we can certainly move to questions now. We have one question. Nell anyone has a question, please feel free to go to the bottom of the screen to the ask the question button. I think when they came up earlier, in your last question spoke to this but if theres anything more that you would like to elaborate on. What the book might offer to current activists to what lessons the folks might take from the book just in the current moment. Adam i think the last question addressed that pretty thoroughly. It is something to think is important to recognize practice today. They are of a much longer struggle. How much longer struggle in which people have organized. And sustain that pressure over time and in many cases, perhaps not just middle of the but have a tremendous impact on the lives of real people. That is important to keep in mind. It is important to recognize that history but also the understanding of the history and struggle that i mentioned continue into the future. What you think is important to have a Historical Perspective for Immigration Enforcement system does not start when ice was created after september 11th in 2001. And theres a misconception there. But understanding that long histories welcome which the waist people have fought back in one. Think its important just recognizing the importance of pinpointing out immigration system works and release key points are. Activists are already doing this. We actually dont need to tell anyone that. But i think that we as historians can offer perhaps perspective. And collaborate in ways that might be useful to organize. Nell thank you and the next question on the language. Cargo. I was wondering if you talk about the u. S. What ices language to shape language. Like illegal aliens are in what is a wonderful question. Its really an important question. I do think that language is a battleground here. I wonder if you have any thoughts on this as well. But the dehumanization of migrants, through the Mainstream Media and the government. As well as wealth documented. Many wonderful studies in the 70s the dawn of the age. Mainstream Media Outlets disproportionately used language to describe migrants. At that time, they were more influential winchell at the time. In the ways in which ordinary citizens and people in the country understood migrants had a lot to do with it. But how is media covering this. I once read an article for news outlets, in 2012. About the early days of undocumented and of young undocumented people coming out really fully in conducting offices and i wrote this article the story of these actions took place in philadelphia. I submitted the data work. We went back and forth in the last change, he said everything looks great and were ready to go. Just one thing. I change all of the references of undocumented to illegal. The article. And i said well thats not just one thing. That is the whole thing. I voidable the article if i didnt win that particular talking point question him as an easy one in a sense. This was like the New York Times style guide says. I did win that argument in the interbreeding not to mention its a humanizing language. So unapologetic as well. So language was tremendously important in shaping these ideas. It circles back to the question earlier as how can you justify the treatment of human beings. Language had a lot to do with it read. Francisco i think that the word has been by far the most damaging term. Im surprised how you, how did the termite dreamer which only five years ago she was so much promise. Dreamer was a beautiful work. It was going to open somehow paths. First would be the dreamers and then everybody else. Now its almost become a little term now. We were talking earlier about help the deportation is not just thrown into the Detention Center at the another of the country. Interstates of being inside of the United States and are already, sucked into the Deportation Machine. And in limbo. I think yesterday, no covid19 relief money the dreamer students. How can something at a time like this, with covid19, with the black lives matter. All of these extraordinary things happening. How do something so cruel like that that we viewed yesterday exist. Because not going to give money to them. What is happened. Adam how we recharge this debat. Adam in the Current Administration certainly falls in line with the historic tradition of the treaty immigrants as others. I think a lot of the policy actions and confirmations are incredibly dehumanizing and inhumane. But i would just say couple things really you bring up the important point i understand deportation not to be the fiscal act from the country alone. But as you say, impact deportation has on People Living in a country with the threat of the possibility be deported. It affects peoples lives but also asking to be departed is another part of the story. In the dream act and the identity of gamers is an interesting one. Many people of identified as one. Many do not and they insist on blood being identified that term. And then mike identifies young undocumented activists. But just like with any term, is being singled out. And understand from their perspective. What is the terminology that they would be think dreamer the capital and the media often times but it doesnt capture that in and such that we problematic matter, that immigrant. Never think that i would say to give back to your point about the term alien. What is a stand for. As the development of relief and minors act. So that sense, we can understand why people might not want to be identified as such for that very reason. Francisco nell we have a couplf questions here. It was like multiple people in the same person pretty one is talking that chicanos struggle in the complicated history that in here. Can you check with the rule of mexican organizers and struggle obviously there are number of people for home the border process with a historical truth after 1848. Adam without a doubt. This is something that we certainly see in the 1970s. The immigrant rights movement. Many of the people became leaders in the moment. They actually thought and that struggle at the shoe factory. They came out of the chicano movement. They were inspired by the moment. They learned organizing through that. And they dedicated their lives to it. Thank interviewed an oral history with many of those individuals. Lawyers, labor organizers, and the young chicano labor organizer. Local 1428. It was at the factory that morning. He described the ins bands to the buses rolling in like the cost stuff over those were his words. And for people that come out of that tradition i think understood both the power of organizing and sustained struggle and the question also raises the very valid and important points pretty keep in mind that none of these took place in southwest pretty the land that was mexico. Just a century ago. Or in some cases, not even. And just decades ago. So the whole claim was a claim of the land and the instructions of what is mean to be an american. It complicated by the historical truths. In the reality that the government and the law of the federal law my say one thing that people have always pushed back and had a very different understanding of what it means to be an american. The intent is something that we need to put front and center. And to recognize is always been true but now with the never perhaps being mexican or being Mexican American is increasingly come to define what it means to be an american. So appreciate that question. I think you some should all keep in mind these struggles are building of one another. The actors involved were very much aware of that. The activists and organizers, themselves for the front of the struggles. Undocumented themselves are often if not always the ones at the front of these struggles. Leading the way the sport of the allies and advocates. As a role for everyone to play perhaps. But we should turn to the people. And have them lead us forward. Nell i think this can be one last question if that works friday asking both of you. One of the ways that the u. S. Is to narrate for mexico the media especially that violence is something that happens in mexico but not the u. S. How does this moment revise that. Francisco i think think youre paying attention to the media. Maybe a narrative of violence in the United States is being used to do revise. Had to lease killings here in the last ten days or so. Dominating the media right now. In ways that possibly referencing in the United States. I really think something so desperately wanting to have as the deportation or similarity between active is here there. I remember when we had protests here. Is very similar to what is happening in the nicest right now with 43 students. I was so struck but then that you would often see people carrying signs. Lisa desperately wish to see the same thing therapy for people, i wouldve loved to seen for that. In the future, because of the nature of well its state violence in mexico. Or obviously going to have challenging moments ahead where hopefully we will be able to join across the globe realize this like so many of our problems and it is also transnational. That we share responsibility. And in different ways as the government of the United States feeds the violence here. And that in some ways may need to and obviously through the overnight crimes. [inaudible]. So the more that we Pay Attention to each other that we can have the two countries. We would have to all share the economy anyway. Its the is right. Francisco i think that is very important. Adam i would say yes, its kind of binary dividing is United States and mexico. Keeping them somehow seven or parts. I think it is useful knowledge to remember. 10 percent of mexican citizens live in the United States. A large percentage page of the mexicans lived in the United States. Some are going back and forth. A long history of conquest and violence that we touched on briefly. But theres one thing that is in foraging is that violence long has been here. If anybody is been paying attention last two weeks, you can point to any number of hundreds of examples. The state forces through the police mostly, the loan policies of violence and some people in this country. But theyre enacting violence. The People Living here. Citizens and residents. Everyone else. We have seen more International Support thing. Theres people outside the u. S. Embassy and mexico testing during last couple of weeks. An increase to see that schools people cross the world. Doing the same. I think the more solidarity that people can muster and the broader these struggles are, ultimately more powerful and effective that they will be. And i appreciate that question. I think its an important one for us to remember. Theres so much strength in numbers. And despite the odds of what might be possible or seemingly impossible, sometimes there are a few surprises in there. Nell i think will ended their gentlemen braided thank you so much for this nice conversation and thanks all of you for spinning your evening with us. We have learned more about this book and purchase the book, you follow that link below of the half of harvard bookstore. The Deportation Machine. Have a good night keep reading and please be well. Thank you both. Inch watch tv this weekend every saturday evening at 8 00 p. M. Eastern, sibilant and watch several hours of your favorite author. Tonight bestselling author of other of several books including talking to strangers. The Tipping Point outliers and david and goliath. Be sure to watch next saturday, july 25th rated feature books by president donald trump, rock obama, bill clinton and george hw bush. Mens watch book t a summer on cspan2. Here are some of the current best selling audiobooks according to audible. Topping the list is president trumps niece mary trumps critical look president and the trump family. Too much and never enough. This followed by journalist james examination of the Science Behind how we breathe. After that is white for agility. Robithe challenges of discussing race in america. In abram argues that america must choose to be antitrust is to work towards building more Equitable Society and how to be an antiracist. And wrapping up our look at some of the best selling infection audiobooks, according to audible this activists lynn doyles memoir untamed. Some of these authors have appeared on book tv and you can watch them on line, booktv. Org. Welcome. A new Program Sponsored by american history. My name is jim and im president of the institute pretty will be presenting important books and emerging history which fight in the 18th century, our current important books by some of the major people in our