For being here. Im a bookseller and events host at book line which brookline which is in brookline, massachusetts. We could be anywhere. And i wanted to get started by thank everyone for being here this evening, everyone who is supporting these amazing journalists, writers as well as our bookstores by purchasing their copy of the book through us or by choosing to pay your way after the event. Every event really does make a difference, especially in times like these. We cant understate how much we appreciate it. Just a few things about sort of how the event is going to go tonight and the platform. You can see the chat function as weve been doing, throughout the event, you know, its not a disturbance if you have any thoughts or anything, if you want to just give a shoutout. Feel free to. Not a disturbance at all. I, of course, encourage everyone to be kind and respectful, but hopefully that should go without saying. Im just going to do a short introduction here, and after their conversation well have time for questions from the audience so you can start thinking about any questions you have for these guys, which which point ill come back on screen to sort of repeat the questions, be a vehicle for that. Yeah, so if you have any questions about how that function works, its the little button right there sort of towards the middle of your screen, to the left of the chat box. So you can just punch in your question there. Its relatively straightforward once you have it. I think that covers all the administrative side of things. So tonight were excited to welcome Casey Sherman and dave wedge. They are one of the premiere nonfiction writing teams on stories out of and with the city of boston. Cot, they cowrote the definitive story of the Boston Marathon boll, in bombings, which was adapted into the film patriots day. Tonight finish americas most wanted crime boss, drawing on exclusive interviews and exhaustive investigative reporting to tell the complete story of Whitey Bulger, the leader of bostons winter hill gang and number one on the fbis most wanted list. The capture and eventual murder in prison while incarcerated at one of americas most [inaudible] ice bucket challenge [inaudible] als which is in development for a feature film and a New York Times best selling 12. Finish they both live in boston. Theyll be joined tonight by News Reporter bob ward, widely regarded as one of new englands best crime reporters. From local investigations to federal probes, he has covered hundreds of these cases and is known for getting officials, alleged criminals and witnesses to go on record in his reporting. Numerous awards for his reporting, too numerous to mention here, and were so, so excited to have these incredible writers and journalists with us tonight. Please, join me in welcoming them. Bradley, thank you so much. And thank you for all the kind words. Its an honor, really, to be with casey and dave as they launch this book, hunting whitey, which ive been reading over the last couple of days. Ive known both of you guys for so hong and saw you out so long are saw out in the field. The whitey story, for me is probably the most important story that ill ever cover, and it still goes on. Can i ask both of you why you decided to go after the story of Whitey Bulger . What was it you were trying to get across in your new book . Sure. Well, you know, again, bob, you theres been so much great reporting on the story in the boston area. Youre one of, you know, many journalists that really nails down the life of crime from south boston meshing with his very devilish relationship with the fbi. What dave and i were looking at after bulger was murdered in prison was, you know, those 16 years that he was on the run as a fugitive. And all that time he spent in prison leading up to his murder, and his murder itself, you know, they were the missing gaps in the bulger saga that we were hoping to provide answers for, and i think we did. Join on this innovative book launch. These are difficult times for everybody. Pick it up and have some fun and try to escape a little bit to the occasion that describes. I covered a lot as you and casey did with the Boston Herald for 14 years and i never thought i would consider writing a book about Whitey Bulger because so many reporters have tackled the topic in the past. So many Unanswered Questions of what it is like on the run and theres still this mythology about Whitey Bulger, this local gangster the 3 of us now is completely fiction and we felt a duty to report it out. One of the great things about the book is when i approached Whitey Bulger i had to narrow my focus because it is such a huge story. Where do you dive in . How far back do you go and the corruption, the great thing about this book. That is not why the report. And why dont we go chronologically about what you covered and it really begins in 1994 when the indictments come down and Whitey Bulger disappears but doesnt disappear with Katherine Greg with santa monica. Before christmas, 1994 with his commonlaw wife, Katherine Greg was the mistress in Whitey Bulgers life before going on the run with him. The corrupt fbi agents turned corporate security officer, we had vital information, one step ahead of Law Enforcement. There is a huge noreaster brewing, all of his gang members, his partner in crime about to get indicted so takes her from an odyssey that about a month and a half, teresa is on the run with her husband so to speak but she has kids at home, grandchildren at home but not cut out for the fugitive light and theres a lot of anger and resentment during that time and during that brief. Go where Whitey Bulger would be callous toward her. You are not cut out for it and take it back to chelsea and pick up my mistress, Katherine Greg who has been in love with me for 20 years and where does the fugitive odyssey take us . It took 16 years. He had an idea he would be gone for that length of time . Casey and i like to say he was a student of crime. He considers his time in alcatraz his harvard. He considered himself to have a phd in crime but also in being a fugitive. He had planned for that phone call for many years and he stashed money around the world and around the united states. He had cash, access to cash, countless weapons and he also had many different aliases and books on how to be a fugitive. He read up on crude prison escapes and picked up tips from all these things that served him well during this flight from justice over 16 years. His partner does not do that. Frank salome who was on the outside looking in, they thought they had the system rigged. There are a lot of connections at the massachusetts state police. When tipped off, whitey had been planning for years for this particular moment. They are living day today. They are dragged on the run for nearly two decades. Old guys, he and pat have a relationship, they learned a lot as criminals. Whitey had one approach and when they split up they split up. They ran organized crime outfit like terrorist skills, very categorized in terms of information they share with each other and i dont think Stephen Fleming was the closest to Whitey Bulger, kevin weeks was close to him as well but there was a lot that Whitey Bulger kept to himself in but if they cracked under pressure they would ultimately leave Law Enforcement so bulger insulated himself very smartly. If you look at the legendary or infamous gangsters of american history, our capone, lanskys, john godeys, both are smarter than all of them because they are so willing to insulate themselves and compartmentalize the information hes willing to give to others but that was ultimately why he survived on the run for as long as he did. You talk about him being a ghost on the run in his fugitive years. He was also a mob boss. When hes gone there are no current pictures of him. I remember the fbi releasing audio recordings from one of the bugs so you could hear what he sounded like and contrast that with no john godeys of the world, our capone, they want to be seen it be the mister big bad guy but not whitey. He wanted to be a ghosted be invisible. Those kinds of legendary gangsters that tried to keep in the background and never allow themselves to be photographed or recorded. The teflon don was more known for the thousand dollars suits he wore to court every week as opposed to how he was manipulating and running a criminal organization. Whitey was a student of the organized crime legends and infamous legends that came before and extrapolated those into his own life. Wants to keep it moving. We could talk for hours about this stuff. I think the most fascinating part of this is what happened in louisiana because it was took a little bit of a risk in that he was there on a regular basis and he ingratiated himself with the community and people had no idea who he was, when did they get down to grand isle . After they went on the run. They were swapping cars in new york and part of the story of hunting whitey the inside story of the capture and killing of americas most wanted crime boss is the fbi story and agents despite Public Perception that they werent doing anything many of them were, including charlie jean turco who was able to find one of his getaway cars in a driveway in new york and he takes this car apart and find a receipt and that receipt was for a salon in grand isle louisiana which put the fbi in a hunt for whitey and in that area, they get down there under the alias of tom and helen baxter, they take a family that has a lot of money and bulger and her just throw money at them. They take their groceries, take them shopping for fishing equipment, pay for their medical bills and the thing we love about that part of the story is they also had a dog that was pregnant and the dog had a litter of puppies and one of the puppies was critically ill. In massachusetts we would take that animal to a shelter or Animal Hospital and that animal would be either saved or euthanized. That bio is one to solve that problem and Whitey Bulger, this killer of women and killer of men seized this puppy in the final moments of its life dripping with tears. He cannot understand one of the family members is about to kill this puppy and put it out of its misery and he is going to walk away before the gunshot. Just as do what you need to do. I never heard that story. We got the family to open up to us and that is one of the great things about this project. We covered a lot of different cases. We wrote about tom brady and the new England Patriots and try to extract information from the nfl in the new England Patriots was nearly impossible but go after Whitey Bulger, we were fortunate and lucky that everybody opened up and were willing to tell their story. You were in court and saw whitey and listen to the violence and things he did when he was a younger man, crying over a puppy dog. How do you put that together in your head . Classic serial killer behavior, for Whitey Bulger the weakness was animals. It played a vital role in his undoing which we get to later but it goes back to that mythology. He puts this image of being a super gangster, this untouchable gangster but he was rather cowardly in a lot of ways. With the photographs, everybody was on a need to know basis and that included the family in louisiana, they didnt know he was a fugitive but he was so good at seeing them but when they when they were finally told by the fbi who Whitey Bulger was they refused to believe it. He showed so much kindness, buying gifts for the kids, refrigerators. Didnt the kids call him uncle or something . That is how they knew about it. The day that whitey knew his alias had been made, they had a tearful goodbye and whitey tell them you will read some things in the newspaper, just know that we loved you and we will always love you and despite the depravity of this guy, certainly he was a mobster, continuing to correspond beyond his capture into his years as a convict in federal prison. You tell a great story about how he was made and it involves Teresa Stanley. Talk about women problems. It hurt teresa and that whole episode continued to whitey having to make some fast moves. Here was somebody who loved Whitey Bulger but had to come back to her family and hes trying to grapple with that. She goes out and gets close and the fbi is thinking weve got this guy who is an informant and there will be some pillow talk between teresa and this lowlevel gangster that will play this information as to where whitey is and teresa does give up Whitey Bulgers alias as tom baxter and they are willing to spend the rest of their lives as fugitives at grand isle, nobody cared about this place, nobody still cares. The fbi agents that walked down there thought they were in an episode of true detectives. It was that unusual, people can hide for years there. He had to move on and Katherine Greg was his accomplice and allowed him to crisscross the country like they did. A mistake that was made in the original manhunt before a new group of agents, they went to a long interview, had they done that sooner this flight from justice would have been cut dramatically if not stopped. They got the break in the case in the case he described but the cavalry didnt come. Turco was ready to make a move, theres a lot of questions why that happened and we get into that in the book and that is an interesting part of the story but really key to the early mistakes was not really putting Teresa Stanley under the hot lights. They waited weeks and that didnt happen. It almost took two years for the fbi to interviews John Connolly. No clear answers whether it covers your selves, the whole idea they dont want to do that. That is a big part of our story. A big part of the story we will get to and people can read all about it. The faction that made those mistakes just described to maybe they were mistakes and maybe they were calculated oversights to protect the bureau in boston and Collateral Damage that might have been mixed up with John Connolly but the new age to crack that case, they dont have anything to do with any of that. I remember talking to agents and talked about whitey, very difficult for them to work in that office as long as they were out there. The judge things were taking place where he was an informant and that is coming out at that time. Lisa is dealing with it. The agents in that office i dealing with it as well. How does whitey get to california . Took a train out from chicago to la and landed in la first and eventually got to santa monica at the same time the o. J. Simpson civil trial was underway. This hotel and all of a sudden whitey is trying to sleep and heres helicopters overhead and thinks the fbi is coming to get me but what he didnt realize, media folks and helicopters following o. J. Simpsons motorcade to the civil trial court house in santa monica where that case was ultimately adjudicated. At that moment, in venice beach in the santa monica and in venice beach they find themselves as fugitive and false identification. They are on the boardwalk. There Social Security a threatening demeanor, what it was, in Social Security nets. They are up there, to mix in. Tell the story about no one would see what that is, through the departed, as interested as all of us were and how hollywood was portraying it. It is an interesting read. Anyone who tells a life story, he was fascinated by it. This went to a showing of it, watching Jack Nicholson portray a character based on Whitey Bulger. A few rows behind was the sheriffs deputy from san diego who grew up in massachusetts and knew who Whitey Bulger was, to conform that it was him, this deputy told us in no uncertain terms, he believes Whitey Bulger made him. Talk about art imitating life. I see those images of Whitey Bulger and the sheriff deputy whose name is richard eden, such a small world, we are at the same high School Together so i heard the story when it happened in 2006 because richard eden told me that. He was a guy who was incredibly adept decorated sheriffs deputy in san diego breaking down the cartels in san diego in areas, and that dirty to that Whitey Bulger had. Also Whitey Bulger there was a certain bulge that suggested a weapon. Richard eden was not armed, testifying in a gun trial and down the street and giving his weapon to the veil of that morning. Richard eden was unarmed, he knows boulder wont go without a fight and decided to trail him as long as he can and does so until eventually boulder gives him the slip. It is amazing. Only a few minutes to spend on the pursuit. You mentioned the new agents, new ideas, new ways to keep interest, went into americas most wanted many times. They would target billboards and eventually they targeted an ad campaign focused not necessarily on what he but Katherine Greg, how quickly things turned around in los angeles. Noreen gleason, among those agents, with the reputation, had no ties for the John Connolly regime, by catching bulgers woman, put out ingenious rules. Got some feedback and a Plastic Surgeon that not only treated katherine they had many pictures that they didnt have before, a first of its kind Public Service announcement. The project the fbi put together, couldnt afford to put the psa and tv on the market and what it did is get worldwide media coverage. The most wanted man in america off point and was seen by a woman in iceland, it was really a huge, smart decision by the people she is working with. It went to free advertising. The dramatic takedown of Whitey Bulger, one of the allstars in la, he was on vacation. He was at a Sporting Goods store and get the text on his phone, possible Whitey Bulger cited. He was just about to say i am on vacation. This means organized crime. Scott noah was a fugitive hunter who infiltrated the Mexican Cartel successfully but the agent and he wouldnt let them go and he said he essentially he was about to send that message and instead he says what will you have . So the next text comes over, a tipster in iceland claims she knows the aliases of charlie and carol gas go and also the 303 in santa monica and gary says who took the tip . The great thing about this ultimate takedown was the fbi utilized Us Marshals Service in a team like fashion but gary doesnt trust anybody in the bureau so in the Us Marshals Service i need to talk to the tipster myself so they put him in touch with this woman in iceland and she gives them the reason why she would do that. At the end of the conversation gary owen says i got to ask you how sure he is these fugitives that we have been after 16 years and he says that is it, im not 100 sure so you can see they are getting to play that but she jumps in and says i am 200 sure and at that point it was game on. The trap is set and you can see it in your mind. You stood in the garage where this all went down and Whitey Bulger didnt fight back. He knew his time was up. David is about to talk about this. The first time he discusses how and why, they have taken over. What we obtained from this book explaining his own arrest talks about how it was eerily quiet in the elevator but the way it went down, scott gary ola and his team, new the Whitey Bulger was on his team and he would shoot his way out of he had to and was afraid he would take Katherine Gray as a human shield or hostage so they lied to him, he was protective and came down to meet them and was met by an army of fbi agents. What Whitey Bulger didnt pick up. Why would someone breaking into a storage locker in a garage he made literally a fatal mistake, the building manager presented its. You check up your self and call the voice and Whitey Bulger was not willing to call the police and the alias was looking at it himself. To have things strewn about when you get off the elevator it looked like somebody did in fact break in. Very meticulous, they believed Whitey Bulger was willing to go down with a fight because ultimately that would have ended in a bloodbath and the easiest way to do it was to bring this elderly man out into the public and when it gets into the basement he knows he has been made before he announced the fbi, Whitey Bulger got down. Enact of defiance even in that moment. An incredible standout he himself describes in that letter. Deifying to that end. I believe Whitey Bulger expected to go out in a blaze of glory. This was a little bit disappointing to Whitey Bulger. Trying to steal in a dirty parking garage, Whitey Bulger anticipated for himself but that was to come. He had more aces of his sleeve and Whitey Bulger spent the rest of his life through his lawyers and his actions trying to keep up this myth about himself. Dont know about you but my mind was blown and this next day was a blur and to show up in federal court for his initial appearance. When i saw him for the first time, i only got to see him. We are all shocked, nobody believes Whitey Bulger will be captured. Whitey bulger never believed it. And they were interviewing him in the plane ride from la he said if i felt like that i would have gone to nevada or arizona, found an empty mineshaft, and killed myself but nobody would have found my body, the fbi would have mud on his face for the rest of its history because it never found me so Whitey Bulger wanted to keep this illusion for as long as he could. I was in the newsroom. I could not believe it. Whitey bulger is probably dead or another country and he was in custody and was in california in hiding things in plane site. In the days of covering it, it all made sense. It all made sense that he was much smarter than anybody else and he was out of the country in europe or highland or something. In a decent apartment building, not a guy with 10 million of cash. Dave and i were the only journalists who got access in that space. Really unusual, to see how Whitey Bulger was able to move around in tight, limited space with a pair of binoculars for wouldbe assassins or whether there would be an fbi estate creeping up on him, all of those long gone. Mustve had a great relationship, and not feel so claustrophobic from his point of view but also katherines point of view, way back in 9697 when they took off. Did she expect to be in a tiny apartment . Couldnt have been a lot of fun for her. No sign of any abuse between the two of them. That was his demeanor. Ultimately as his body broke down she became the caregiver and the most important person in that relationship and the letters dave and i covered, between Whitey Bulger and katherine. Take the care tomorrow to allow katherine to go today, there was a level of manipulation and control that Whitey Bulger had at least early on. They are touched on a trial. What was the moment for you . One highlight you take away that i cant believe i just saw that . The whole thing was a circus. The situation, putting this book together, the bookie, dickie obrien, they recalled a story about another bookie that Whitey Bulger was shaking down in braintree, says to the guys we have another business, killing people like you accept he said expletive. When that bookie testified to that, it erupted in laughter, disrupted the courtroom, pounded fist on the table, couldnt believe how funny it was, like somebody told the funniest joke ever heard and that is an insight into the psychology of Whitey Bulger. He was enjoying it. There were some witnesses he was disinterested in and didnt care that much. Those guys took the stand. Can really get an insight into what Whitey Bulger was. Before stevie took the stand they brought him out ahead of time and the two of them were just staring at each other for the first time and the looks on their faces, this quiet thing and looked like stevie was saying to Whitey Bulger what did you do . Like watching two lyons about to punch each other, to testify against Whitey Bulger. Stevie was also a government informant. Stevie turned turncoat in the 1960s while Whitey Bulger was an inmate at alcatraz. There were secrets that Whitey Bulger and stevie, secrets they keep from each other. The trial was an interesting trial, off of the fbi specifically but didnt name names of other corrupt people and goes away, interesting how reading your book goes from this pathetic old man in the prison system which led right up to his death and one of the greatest mysteries of this case is why was he at hazleton where all his enemies were. I still dont understand that. May be there will be an investigation. Implicating in that feeling. In the Italian Mafia and springfield, serving time for big al bruneau. When Whitey Bulger comes walking in Whitey Bulger was moved there under nefarious circumstances. Our investigation has shown negligence and incompetence in florida and they have a lot of questions. One of the most dangerous prisons in the country, and the miller staffing crisis where they had a couple things. And several from massachusetts. That is what Whitey Bulger was. He was murdered just hours after he arrived. Corresponding through letters and several dont want to give him a sharp instrument, that hes going to jab himself in the neck or do harm, freddie was able to paint a picture for us and in many ways in Whitey Bulgers jail cell the moment he was killed and have cooperation with his daughter taylor, very successful in her own right and a different picture, very below, a code of honor which was to daves point, Whitey Bulger many of the italian mobsters, one of the gangsters Whitey Bulger eventually through in jail for a crime he didnt commit, we will talk more about that but he spent 30 years in a jail cell, many of those years with Freddie Mobley bemoaning the fact. He is out now, the conviction is overturned but he spent 30 years. For a crime he didnt commit but largely based on evidence bulger provided, the routine of riding on his rivals. People can read some of that stuff, about that case. I was reading about freddie and his family and it is a mirror image, who you interviewed, a humanistic view of Whitey Bulger. Vicious killers when they went to work and they have family life too. They could turn that on and off the way they did. Whitey bulger loved the stability of family life which is why they brought the family in grand isle under their wing as quickly as they did. They loved to sit down for dinner. Whitey bulger was focused on kids getting their homework done so here you have this guy who tried to live the rz and harriet life but hes also scarface. In a corrupt society which he did. We have to talk about billy bulger, he actually talked to you which is something he has avoided talking about the whole time i have been in boston. What was that experience like . He hasnt spoken publicly at all for 12 years. He did an interview about 12 years ago but he was pretty evasive. And he was evasive with us as well. I covered billy bulger when he was in the us presidency in the stateside. He knew who i was, showed up at his doorstep, he knew who i was and i knew why i was there. It was a strange experience. We have all knocked on 1 million doors over the years to get interviews and you never know what is on the other side of that door. I had my phone out and was able to capture anything he said. I expected him to say i love my brother but dont want to talk to you. But he opened the door and invited me in like he wanted to speak. He was waiting for someone to ask him. We recorded the interview for a couple hours and he was very evasive, didnt want to talk about his brothers life because he was still concerned as he should be but he spoke at length why he thinks his brother went one way and he went the other. And he talked about the prison murder. He was clear the family think there was corruption or negligence involved. They have a lawsuit, they are suing now but it is fascinating, just show up and knock on the door and let you in, wasnt as if you have a call set up sometime later and he has is talking points. It was a weird day. As soon as i left the house, a couple dozen times we were always knocking on his door. As i am sure you did. I very rarely got much out of billy over the years except a soundbite over the years but as soon as i left the house i said you are not going to leave with just that. I remember that conversation and the next day i went to the fbi agents i was interviewing for the book as well and told them what billy said and billy was cagey in his conversation with us but the fbi said that guys should be in jail. Put us on the record for this. They were not mincing words. They had strong evidence to support that billy was in touch and in contact with his fugitive brother. What frustrated that was here is billy bulger, a politician, which made him an officer of the court, operating one of the most notorious killers in gangland history and the fbi agents could never wrap their heads around that. When he went to testify or not testify the story broke about his grand jury appearance in which he admitted he took a phone call from jim just once, he went to a lawyers house and took a phone call and they talked, that was leaked just before he appeared before congress and thats when he had memory loss. In the course of writing this book, Whitey Bulger would drive from santa monica to the midwest where he would place phone calls to his family. He wanted the fbi to say he was hiding out in canada as opposed to southern california. Very crafty smart gangster. Always always thinking. Should we take some questions . We only have a few minutes left. The first question could Whitey Bulger have lasted as long as he did without a certain part of the culture embracing and protecting him . He couldnt have and that was the frustration for the fbi agents that took over the case. They were beside themselves that every door they knocked on there was total silence in here was a guy accused of 19 murders including the murders of two women. The fact that Whitey Bulger invested in the community, always brought meals for needy families, with the community to protect him and they did. To illustrate that, whenever the fbi would show up or tried to interview one of the family members they would get a call back from Whitey Bulgers family attorney. They stonewalled the investigation. None of them would cooperate. The next question, did you speak to the tipster . A very distant place. Did not get a chance to speak to her, very private when they decided to write this book but they originally lived in santa monica across the street from Whitey Bulger and katherine, it was their love of pets which they nicknamed tiger. A tipster in iceland was doing the same thing. Here comes her boyfriend whitey, would rail against president obamas immigration policies. She thought it was angry and racist and she never lost that memory and that ultimately led the fact the tip came in from iceland makes a lot of sense because you could not be further away from santa monica. You better be far away and not be in the neighborhood so it makes a lot of sense to have all that distance to make that phone call and the fbi agents that are you sure . I am 200 sure. You dont do that if you fear this person is going to come back and get you. Katherine knows where that is. I have to assume she knows where some money is hidden, she was on the run for 16 years, she has not spoken to authorities, she was the good old gangster mall she promised she would be, she served her time, is out of jail and is living with the shore of massachusetts and she probably does have some information. They all said someone close to bulger knows where those safety deposit boxes are and there are illgotten gains. That money should go to the victims families, the fbi follow those types of people that are close to Whitey Bulger, that will lead you to where the lottery is. You guys were in that apartment and saw how small it is. 800, 000 in cash takes up a lot of space, no way she didnt know about the money or the weapons. I think she knows everything. I do too and more time on her sentence. She doesnt serve any time at all. Some would say she was the perfect accomplice. She kept her mouth shut, stood by her man. Sure did. Next question, talk a little bit about this. To what extent did Whitey Bulger and billy keep in touch . It is hard to say but others dont believe for one minute that Whitey Bulger wasnt in contact with several people including his own family. Billy did admit to one phone call from his brother. It strains credulity to think that was the only one. Think about the high price the family played. Doesnt have the power and prestige he used to have, jackie lost his pension and they stayed loyal to him until the end. We have audio conversations between billy and Whitey Bulger at the department of corrections. One moment where billy asks whitey do you know what you have done to this family and he goes, you know what has been done to you . What do you think it has done to me and goes off on his own brother and talks about the fact he cant have any conference with katherine, hes going to die in prison, so there is some friction in that relationship. This will probably be the last question but a good one to end on. Katherine barr asks what was his Mental Illness as he disappeared the eighth disassociates himself. May be we could jump into a larger psychological sense you have of Whitey Bulger. Whitey bulger is a classic sociopath where for the reasons we just discussed, that he was able to separate his horrible crimes, killing and disfiguring people and his love of animals. He was a classic sociopath. Casey can talk about his mental condition which goes back to his days in alcatraz. He was a bad guy to begin with but participated in potentially thousands. To shave off time for a sentence and they convinced him to do it because they told him the governor was looking to find a cure for schizophrenia and ultimately the cia operation to develop a mind control agent and here is bulger participating in these crazy lsd trips as a prisoner. You have a guy who is leaning toward being a bad person and that chemistry really changes his mind and he almost becomes the incredible hulk of criminals. It was a contributing factor. We write about that in the book the fact that katherine and whitey could not stay in the same bedroom at night because he would wake up screaming because he would be reliving these hallucinations that he experienced so many years before. I just know from watching in court, watching him every day he was very involved in his trial. He was prone to outbursts from time to time. He could also turn on the charm when he was first brought in and asked can you afford a lawyer and his answer is i could if you gave me my money back. A serial killer, head of the mob and is cracking irish jokes and trying to be one of the guys, so many different facets to Whitey Bulger and i think that is what made him the mob boss, most feared and affected mob boss we have ever seen in new england. A great place to write things up. Thanks to everyone, write the book the book box. I hope you all have a great afternoon and take good care. Thank you guys. You got it, guys, thank you. The president s from Public Affairs available now in paperback and ebook, present biographies of every president organized by their ranking and noted historians, from best to worst, and features perspectives to the lies of our chief executives and leadership styles. Visit our website, cspan. Org thepresident s. We are so happy to have you here before we launch into a discussion i would like to share a little bit of history. There founded in 19207 over on fourth avenue. Stretching from union square