Most mysterious first lady we have ever had in modern times. You think that is true. I certainly do pretty so i set out to do this because i thought there was this strange void of facts and information. In keeping immigrants out. It was just shocking how little is known about basic biographical information. Donald trump has been in the public eye forever it seems like. Why do we know so little about melania . There are a lot of reasons. One is she only arrived in america at 26. So i had to travel to her native country, its a small country carved out of the former yugoslavia. When she was there was a socialist country. They did not have great archive archives. The bosnian war, that whole area was engulfed in conflict. Also, she once it that way. When i was going around, it was very interesting how many people said oh ive got a call that said dont talk to anybody. She really shes really made a brand out of being the mysterious milani f. I think one aspect of that is people make a lot of assumptions about her that youve discovered that turned out not to be true. Talk about some of those. Because i think we did not see her on the campaign trail we missed her as a player. What turns out even though you dont see her, and you certainly dont hear her. She does have influence with her husband. During the campaign, many people, former Campaign Managers would say that after a rally would get in the car in the very first call he would make was okay how did i do what you think . She would give him advice about what was resonating, what was not, what he should drop. She was also a cheerleader beside behindthescenes telling him as one person after another said lets try to beat trump. She admires his connection to people. I think one of the reasons she admires that it is its hard for her to do public speaking. English is not her first language. That is one of the inventing things you discovered as well. There have been many stories written that said she, like many europeans are fluent in multiple languages like four languages. You found that possibly is not correct. All i could find basically it was very clear to me there is no evidence of that. Because it was such a key part of her resume, i was going things and checking things for it i wanted proof, and wanted documents. I even asked the white house. Theres a couple tapes online where she is in italy and another one in france where she speaks for very short times with little kids like toddlers and she says like bambino and hello. I cant find anything online could you send it. So she has had a lot of foreign trips there is an opportunity to travel as the first lady. Shes met the popes and other figures the french president her wife. At least in the dozens of interviews nobody says that she did. It is very, very noticeable see Jackie Kennedy in the 60s way before iphones made it easier and video. You could find Jackie Kennedy online and she gave a speech in spanish so just tell me about this because its a key part of your resume. Civic you have been very experienced reporter, youve won the pulitzer prize, telling all kinds of stories. We are very with you doing this book. But you have done reporting on. I think, i have been a correspondent, ive worked in three continents, abroad for 15 years. I havent written about drug cartels, i have interviewed the head of the mob in japan. Drug leaders in prison. And nothing, nothing compared to how difficult it was to get melania trunk, real information. There was a for instance during a campaign i had to identify with her husband who is low busy running for president. Was very interesting right then when i asked for an interview i was directed to talk to him first. And when you talk to him first what did he would to know about you . It wasnt exactly said that way. I asked for an interview for melania and all the sudden they said mr. Trump would like to see if its i got on the train in washington at the trump tower during the campaign is pretty busy brita member walking into the office in trump tower he had about 100 magazines on his desk. Every single one of them had a picture of himself on them. And then the walls were lined with photos of himself there is overflow and it was leaning against the wall. I said oh, i didnt know you are moving, it was such a mess i thought he was moving. He said no, no, no, never trust anybody with a tidy desk. And so it was bizarre. Yes is a conversation where he had a television on his desk was a very messy desk that he was very proud of watching the masters Golf Tournament talked about that here comes jared is not very linear thought. I asked about melania spoke to his wife after words i got the green light. Volodymyr trump is a very few interviews it was an inperson was by phone . So even then even shy spoke to her for 44 minutes and normally dont say 44 minutes but that is a long time for her to talk to somebody. What is so interesting she has one heck of a story to tell. She was 26 years old when she first arrived in the United States. And then shes heading to the white house an incredible story shugart very modestly in a socialist country, modest department her mom worked in a factory. Now shes merge her rich guy living in the white house. I think its really kind of hard to understand why she doesnt want to be more forthcoming. I think shes read all the donald trump books. Her branding is exactly opposite of his. He became trump he never stopped talking. His trump building, trump magazine, she is the opposite. She is extreme and secretive as they go front of the camera. Civic c set of bonk a trump had a nickname for her. And that reflects she was always dressed an employees edge employees but silence. But milani had called avoca trump a princess. And keep it clear they did not use those words to their faces. I thought this is one ivanka was young she was a teenager and her dad started going out hed been divorced twice he was in divorce with marla maples when he took up with milani and a ivanka said oh my god, she talks about as much as a painting on the wall ivanka and melania both are former models could not be more different. Its not a big surprise they dont get along. So lets go back to melania. Her parents continue to be important in her life. They live nearby, she spends a lot of time with her tell us about her mother and father. Civic i am most fascinated by her mother. She is the most important person according to everyone i talked to by far the most important person in melania is life. She is with her most days melania is in the white house amalija is right there. She cooks, she takes care of barren, she is the right hand and left hand of melania. That is what a friend of hers told me. Amalija is fascinating. She grew up world war ii tearing her world apart they had to flee yugoslavia. She was beautiful she was stylish, she was a talented seamstress. She worked in this building i went into. It was a former monastery and when the communist dictator took over after world war ii, he took all of the catholic and other church lands and nationalized i it. It was a factor that made close. An emollient work there for three decades. Because she did not have a College Degree she did not get paid or recognition for the talent she had. But everyone in town said she was stylish. And when melania i was little and her sister, they had close, handmade close that put them apart. That was important in a time when everyone was the same. Every building seem to be the color of a storm cloud. If you were a family of one size that meant that was the same size of apartment you got. Everybody went to the government owned vacation homes. To stand apart, to look beautiful, to have close, everybody remembered the mother of what she did for those kids. You went to this place, to this town where she lived. What do they think about melania . Are there gift shops and souvenirs to buy . No. First of all her hometown is gorgeous. It reminds me of ireland actually. Its all green, its a small country, the little town is pretty small. There is one hotel and people were coming to it. So there are 50000 people. You got trees, it was great outside its all green and lush and lovely. People there are divided thats pretty much because of her husband. There is all a lot of people in pretty much every country, including our own that either loathes donald trump or loved him. That is filtered down. Theres a lot of division over there. I think in addition to that, theres quite a lot of disappointment that she does not speak about her country more. And that translates as why doesnt she . Is she embarrassed . It is telling the most famous in america was a basketball player for the mavericks. Its not melania. Thats incredible. The basketball superstar is the most famous and most written about. One of the things you write about in the book that i thought was so interesting was that there were various people who are important to melania different stages in her life in in her career. And yet she does not seem to have kept up with them. She does not seem to have kept a network of friends from her lif life. If so why do you think thats happened . Somesuch she took a big eraser and one chapter was done its gone. Childhood friends said there was a little girl who they were very close to the were in matching highrises they played every day, that woman is now an artist, a very talented woman. She said as soon as melania out went to the capital that was it. And many other people tell the same stories. Photographers would help her get pictures when she was 21 said that was it. She just kept moving on and never looked back. Never talked about the past. That was easy when she met trump. Trump was not interested in her past. Trump was interested in trump as many people have told me. Theres that same phrase over and over. So trump divorced his second wife marla maples because she was always having people around her mother, father, others. What melania does have a mother and father the but they are super quiet in the does not even know about them. And she certainly is not brought people from her past. It was striking that at her wedding 99. 9 of the gas were people she had met through donald trump. You told us about her mom. Her father still around and an important figure. Tell us about him. Her father is really close to barron. Donald trump likes to golf but barron likes to play soccer. So her father, victor, is a big soccer fan. Barron speaks sylvain into his grandparents. There are lots of cartoons about how much donald looks like melania is father, victor. Theyre not sin, they are both about the same age. Victor used to be a really good looking guy then now is in the 70s, hes more outspoken i talked to his buddies and they said he was a car buff growing up or he was brilliant with cars he could take apart a put together cars. He prepared cars and was a set show for her he was a chauffeur for the mayor and town. He had the nicest car in town. He loved mercedes. Well think of it, heres a guy who was a chauffeur and had a tiny little shop after the country became independent. Think of it the chauffeur is now being driven by secret service. It was really an amazing story. You talked about how Melania Trump rudely talks about her native country and that is certainly true. I was surprised to learn that she has joint citizenship. And that barron, her son, has joint citizenship. Why has she maintained joint citizenship and why did she make sure her son had it as well . I think this is super interesting. Because yet again it is interpreted by many in europe that she doesnt talk about the old days because she doesnt care about them. That was never the case with melania and she for sure is more complicated than people give her credit for. She did that, i am sure and according to those who spoke with her to give her son options. You have that citizenship with the barron is entitled to and they passport that makes a lot of things easier. First of all he can work freely in all of europe. Much more easily. Its like someone coming from a another country to the u. S. Right now it is tough for a foreigner mainly because of her husband its getting more tough, to get a job. So if he wants to go start something its much easier for him. That just gives you more options. I think she also likes to speak slovenian. It was an amazing press conference and i talked to everybody in the room that day. Silly oneperson of all these journalists met her in 1998 in paris where she had a rare day for all day long she was talking with journalists. I spent months tracking down everyone there to see what she had to say when she was so outspoken there is no trump anywhere it was melania. It was melania on center stage. One of the things she kept talking about was when someone asked her skeptic i love new york. And someone asked if she wanted to get u. S. Citizenship and she said yes because its more options, more opportunities. Shiism mama bear with her son. She was just giving him more opportunities by getting him a citizenship and passport. Easier to get a job, easier to set up a business, easier to inherit land. Its the mom of their options to her son. Its really quite remarkable that the first lady of the United States and the american born son have been given natural citizenship thats never happened weve only had one lady before that was mrs. Adams and that was quite a while ago. That was england not a socialist country. So and melania it is the only first lady whose first language is not english. You talked about how protective she is of her son, barron, which we can all understand. But the disc story of the disclosure in your book that is gotten the most attention is her efforts to renegotiate her prenup after the election in 2016 which had a lot to do with barron. That was an explosive story, tell us about that. Donald trump has written and many, many books certainly said in tv interviews that any rich guy can get a prenup is a loser. Stupid was a word he also used. So we knew they had a prenup. In fact melania was on tv around the time of the wedding and said yes they have a prenup. So we also know trump thanks he is the greatest negotiator in the world. In his book, part of the deal as he talks about why he is such a good negotiator. And he says i know how to get leverage. Leverage is when you have what somebody else wants. Or better yet cant do without. So here is melania who by all accounts that many people i talked to, did not get a very good deal because trump to the hardball of throwing the prenup. We know his first two wives and said publicly that they wanted more than they got. She is a long game player in politics have been great for the leverage table for Melania Trump. Once he would into the public arena he needed her in a new way. For instance, they were negotiating their prenup on that tarmac in israel that was in 2017. The negotiations were going on and it was very noticeable that she was not very cuddling with him and she stayed in new york. So all of those things showed she knows how to make a deal and she is a darn good deal maker. She would not call it making a deal she said was i want to do this to make sure that barron as treated as equally as the oldest three children. Those being a ivanka, eric, and don junior who are mostly front and center in trumps world and get a lot more attention than tiffani, the child with marla maples or barron. So it works. Right . A gel have the specifics i was told it was more than money she wanted, she wanted to make sure barron had a steak and was treated equally, especially because the older three children now have their children. Melania is 50 donald trump is 24 years older. Barron is still only 14. I have been fascinated by the cartoons people are drawing and its all about the prenup. And they have things about eric trump now working for barron trump because melania, in the long run quite as she was she always liked quite once court to three different people i talk to a far better deal. So here is the big question. It is a hard question because marriages are mysterious things. Youve spent all of this time doing research, doing thinking about melania and donald trump. What do you think is the nature of their attraction . What is the strength and quality of their marriage . Like you said love is complicated. Trump love is really complicate complicated. And i am told that when they first got together there was a real connection. It was real, he admires her because shes a lot of things he is not. She is cool. When she gets angry she just walks away. She loves her cool. She admires him she admires what he is able to do this connection to people, theyre both really distrustful of other people they both like the same things in some ways. They both have value image, they both value beautiful and wealthy things they like a lot of the same things. I think theres a lot more in common than people think. They are really tight unit family, trump trump trump for her its her family through mother, father, barron of very tight Group Captain of the real inner person very but the relationship clearly has relaxed at different times. Its been together for 22 years. I could write more of the book about this she was furious about his infidelity. She was embarrassed to no end. She was reading about Stormy Daniels in excess hollywood, but she has an extraordinary capacity to figure out where is my next best move . She always thanks that way. She can do anything and a hurry and she get more from walking away from trump are staying with him . Thats how she thanks. Or do you think those disclosures were embarrassing were they surprising to her . Several key people told me she learned details from all those press reports. She did not know the details. I find it hard to believe she did not know she knew that something was going on. Think she knew the details and the publicitys about it. There is news everywhere but she hates how he talks that access hollywood caught on tape, tens of millions heard them say gross lewd things that he could have any woman he wants, highly embarrassing. She did not know that tape existed. She did not know all she was going to be in for when they went into politics. But at that moment was a crucial moment she could have blown up his president ial ambition by publicly rebuking him and walking away. That was a perilous time for donald trump but she didnt she stood by him. What is your sense of why she did that . Is a vivid scene in the book about this. In trump tower with chris christie, bannon, the whole inner circle it is a one month until the 2016 election. The room listens to that tape and trump is getting red and everybody, some people thought the campaign was dead there other people were moving quickly into how are we going to spend this, it was pretty clear pretty quickly that trump was really worried about melania. He knew that if she did not send by him right then, they knew it was a close race Hillary Clinton was only the first woman president. Without her backing him up, i think in a close direction he did not even when most votes just the key states. 10000 votes in one state made the difference in some cases. So i went to pennsylvania right after that because melania is spoke. Pennsylvania was the key grounds and in the end it was way less, for a fraction of less than 1 they sent melania out there. She stood up to a crowd. It was a daytime crowd, mostly women in the crowd and voucher him. She won pennsylvania. No one will dispute how important she was at that moment. Just her presence made a difference in her campaign. You write about other ways in which she had influence who to choose as a running mate that melanias voice was an important one when he was thinking about that. What did she do . What influences she had on that decision . Again this is why people underestimate her. You dont see her, she doesnt go to the west wing she stays in the first ladys quarters in the east wing of the white house or he has brought in candidates for key jobs in the administration. They are mostly run through her. And the reason he doesnt trust that many people think she has good instincts for instance during the campaign when trying to figure out who to pick for Vice President , the last three were former House Speaker gingrich, former new jersey governor chris christie, and mike pence. She spent two days with the penances. He shouldnt met christie for long time and they talked about gingrich they thought maybe it would be him because we need help on capital hill the people i spoke with in the middle of the said once melania is said to donald, pence is your guy because he will be content to be number two and not be gunning for your job like the other two alphas. She thought the other two were alphas and that pence would be just content is the Vice President. Its interesting to me that they both thought that but knows how to present her argument to trump with one that is appealing because as anthony told me trump likes to be the star and doesnt like costars. Again that was a very appealing way to present the Vice President ial candidate. He did not win a costar. Sometimes, and i think this happens more now than it used to. People say why do we care about first ladys . Why should we Pay Attention to first ladys . Why does it matter . If someone said that to you, what would you say to them . Why should we care about Melania Trump . Could i ask someone, called a lifeline here someone who knows a lot about first ladys his written a marvelous book called the matriarch. Susan, you know a lot about the subject. Im going to answer but the matriarch about george bushs wife, barbara bush. Its a terrific book that answers this question. So you first that i will go. For barbara bush i think part of it was the era in which she grew up when she was at centerstage. She was born in 19205, women did not have the opportunity and women were not taken as seriously. Barbara bush was very accustomed and comfortable wielding significant influence behind the scenes. I think some of that has changed and once we have a first husband instead of a first wife baby that will change more. You find that attitude prevails even now . Does it. Barrel with melania and trump but the tendency to not recognize the influence that they can have. Well, i think that if we write about a cabinet member, we sure should be writing about whoever it is whether its the kitchen cabinet. [laughter] or who is influencing one of the most powerful people if not the most powerful person in the world. To say she is not consequential that misses the point. She is also a historic figure. Theyre not that many women in all of history for live in the white house it is a tax payer building one of the most public and the world. She has taxpayerfunded staff of 100. Who is this person . She is a platform that come potentially do a lot. Her influence so far has been behindthescenes, harder to see. But i think the reason we are interested is it sheds light on who the president is. And also its very important to know who are the influences of someone with that much power. You think Melania Trump likes being first lady . Yes. Yes. She used to grimace sometimes, that cold look as she looked trapped. So people talk about seeing her behindthescenes. She will be smiling its natural and happy talking to kids, then she walks out and she looks like someone has a gun behind her. She looks like she is forced out. When i was in both milan or she works as a model in sylvania, she said in the 90s she would train that way. You are supposed to not smile. Because you did not want to draw attention away from what you are modeling, the close you are modeling. Sometimes it was how she was trained but even more than that she came second in this very important modeling contest when she was 21. She was nationally televised, there are hundreds of applicants you could narrow it down to ten finalists. She is tied for second place. I talked to many people there that night. They said you never would have known she won. Completely emotionless and she was only 21. Some of this is just her. She does not show she likes to be persuaded, but by all accounts she likes to be where the action is. She loves meeting famous people. She loves me and the pope, the queen, she gets to travel to interesting places. She cant love everything because theres a lot of stuff online we know she hates. I think she really enjoys the white house. To your knowledge did she reach out to any previous first ladys yet guidance or talk about the jobs . Does she have a circle of friends she turns to for guidance . Ive got to say she seems like a pretty isolated figure just looking at what we see of her publicly. Yes. I think this is too bad, really. She does not reach out enough. She certainly has not reached out to michelle obama. She has had tea with laura bush. But i talked to even Rosalynn Carter who was talking just what you said is important there are several living people whove been in this very unusual role. They arent elective but they are still public. And really, her counsel is her mother. In very few. And donald trump. Think about how isolating that is. I think that would be very hard. Is there a previous first lady she wants to be like that shes kind of a modeling herself in the mold of . She was asked that question but i think this is really interesting. She was asked that question in 1999 over and over. People forget that trump was first publicly talking about running for president in 1999 in 2000. So i found in george magazine for instance, there was a headline about the first baby. It was if donald trump won should be the first baby. That was in talk magazine. I found this picture of her wearing a bikini lying on a rug with the president ial seal in a mock oval office. At the time people were joking about it. They did not think trump was serious. But in these stories she was asked so while dressed in a bikini, about to land the rug for this photo she said i want to be traditional like Jackie Kennedy. So over and over she talked about Jackie Kennedy. Clearly her mother, who is brunette, very goodlooking, very elegant, was called when she was a factory worker by her friends, jackie because she was so elegant. Its kind of an amazing story that the mom now spends a lot of time in the white house sitting in Jackie Kennedys rose garden. It is a remarkable story. So the whole 2020 campaign got upended by covid and 19. Its going to be a Campaign Like no modern campaign what role do you think melania and trump was intending to play was it a bigger role . Given the new constraints what can we expect to see from her during this campaign . We are waiting to see how covid is going to change it but it was really big news that she announced again before covid she was going to go fund raise. Oh my gosh. This woman who seceded that role to a vodka was going to do it she had the most popular rating and everyone knew even precovid this her poll numbers are better and another fundraiser, those have been canceled because its unclear what shes going to do. She likes to cut videos, polished video so she has control. I would pretty much guess there will be some Campaign Videos that melania is doing urging people to both donate and vote for trump. Is she a political asset . Yes. If you talk to her campaign yes she is a big asset. She was huge during 2016. It was days to go to vote and i said what you think of melania right after access hollywood standing up and they said she is so beautiful this one woman said she is so beautiful that it said something about trump. She could be with a lot of different people, she cant be that bad she wouldnt put up with that. So she is definitely an asset in different ways. Do you think she wants him to win the second term . Things change rapidly because there is now an 8foot channeling a fence around the white house. When i spent too much time is it 2016 campaign talking about tha that, most all most of my interviews were done before these latest protest with the problems in the country was civil unrest in this sense. And she everyone i talked to said she wanted to win again. She was upset about the impeachment should the wrong current mentality where she hunkered down and wanted to fight thought a second term would vindicate the trump name. Also she was thinking of barron. If its another four years and he wins its perfect for him she thought, because he is 14 so for more years hes ready for college. Again, this is what people are telling me then. Ive got to believe that recent events and all of the protests and she did not go across the street to that infamous night when there was teargas clearing out protesters right in front of the white house and then trump came and held up a bible and had the famous photo on. It was interesting in your book to read that she was an important voice urging him to run the first time. That she took him seriously as a president ial contender when most of us were not. [laughter] that is the bond. Trump, even his own lawyers were telling me trump thanks about trump. Trump likes people who think about trump. Melania speaks about trump. She has been really his biggest supporter. She told him for instance that forget all of these people who are mocking you. She believed he could win and that was really important to him. She urged him to do it. I think it is fascinating that she came from another country, she reads a lot and it drives some people in the white house crazy because she finds these critical things and she will bring them to the attention of trump and he will get upset. Her point is she wants trump to know who is on his side. They do it as a loyalist and a non loyalist. People are upset that melania and in one way she is not elected shes just the influenc influence. Its hard to know you were saying before one of my supposed to think about this first lady . Is she really like trump . The answer with everything its complicated. Shes like him in some ways but not in other ways. She has been with him at the critical moments. One of the things that surprises people is given her own history on immigration that she would be with a man who takes such a negative view of immigration one herself, her sister have all benefited by relatively open immigration to the United States. This is the most important thing to me that you will see a lot about this in the book. She helped her parents become u. S. Citizens and in the same week that they got their citizenship, trump complained about what he called chain migration which is exactly what melania had just done. Meaning she had become a citizen and then helped her parents. The chain of going down the family line. It is unbelievable that he helps his own immediate family what he has said. He has made it harder for all kinds of immigrants to come to this country. Hes really made a lot of the language ugly about it. I think many extended family members are most upset about this. Now, melania has had very tepid but very clear assistance from him. First of all she has said she did not want the border policy that separated kids at the border. She allowed her attorney to go on tv the attorney who helped her parents go on tv those ugly words is it enough for most people . I dont think its enough for most people they are disappointed she is not said more. Is far as you know, did her parents and herself and her sister come here following the rules when it comes to immigration . It seems to me, according to the documents i have seen, that the one thing its very complicated because its very suspicious that is just a big flag. Trump doesnt give his tax documents thats a red flag. He just wouldnt know why doesnt she just lay out the documents question its a fair question in there like thats a centerpiece of the campaign, how to build the wall so lets see what your wife did. She does not show us the papers she does not tell us the lawyer. And the associated crested a terrific peace where they got some ledgers that looks like when she first came to the country on a visitors visa that she had ten jobs. It was in a six week time period and then she immediately got her work visa. But again, in normal times no one would even look at this but when your husband would throw somebody out the country for doing exactly that it is fair to say advair to talk about. And when she did that she is on the other steppers. Her parents and sister doesnt look like they followed the rules of the day . They got money to get great lawyers and they had melania as helping them. So they probably think what is fair to say they had a leg up. But this is a way america works, right . Its hard to say she hasnt done well. Sure listening modest apartment where she had a futon and now she has trump towers and others they do wellin america and they bring some of their family members over. That is the country we know. Its just that donald trump is that he wants to change that. The part of your book is a reporters book. The book came out and what what kind of response have you gotten from the white house and from team trump . I think the public response is how you view her is colored by how you view him. Those who dont like him and there are a lot to have intensive dislike, very hard for them she cant be with him so theres that. How could you even write about it . And then theres those who like him are saying how can you be so manger her . Why dont you talk about the fact that she has exaggerated her resume. I am getting hit from both sides. Again, i just think my job was to get some documents, videos, actual facts about who this woman is. The white houses come out they statements all they said is theres no specifics they just said find it in the fiction genre. I dont know. Theres no specific facts to be disputed. I sent questions to the white house begetting seven months before publication asking for fact checks another interview asking to talk to other people, nothing. They would just say send more questions. They wanted to know what i had. I remember i just wanted to know what day in september it was september 1998 that melania and met donald kier tommy what day it is . They wont even say that. She likes the mystery. I was just sitting out to try to fill in the gaps theories that thank you mary thank you for the conversation and for writing this book. Thank you susan. American history tv on cspan three exploring the people and events that tell the american story every weekend. Coming up this weekend saturday 6 00 p. M. Eastern on the civil war historian valley the New York Historical society talk about artifacts related to the july 1863 draft riots in new york city. Featured in their joint publications he civil war and 50 objects. On sunday at 6 00 p. M. On american artifacts we will tour portland row the largest fort and the United States. What sits at the mouth of the chesapeake bay. Here about how the fort served as a beacon of freedom for enslaved people who were protected at the union stronghold. 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