Transcripts For CSPAN2 Campaign 2020 Susan Rice Interviewed By Washington Post Columnist Jonathan... 20240712

Weekend. Today, susan rice, former Obama National security advisor and ambassador to the un shares her thoughts on how the Trump Administration responded to the coronavirus pandemic and the possibility of her being a running mate for joe biden. She spoke with Washington Post columnist jonathan capehart. We are at a moment where our democracy is at stake. Where are leadership role of the world is at stake for the lives of tens of thousands of americans are on the line with incompetence and callous leadership that could care less. Weve got to change that. Good afternoon i am john thing capehart in opinion writer for the Washington Post for this is Washington Post live is also special live recording of my podcast. Former president obamas first term susan rice was the bouncer to United Nations and the second term she was obamas National Security advisor. Today, she is a private citizen. She is the author of tough love, my story of the things worth fighting for. And under consider his consideration to be joe bidens of Vice President ial running mate. Welcome back for the third time to the podcast, ambassador susan rice welcome. Thank you so much is great to be with you. Host one minute before he came on air here that Trump Administration dropped the plan to Deport International Students in online classes and your reaction was to applaud. Explain. Guest it was such a miss guided stupid decision that they took in the first place. International students are a critical part of our University Structure our college campuses. They bring talent, they bring diversity, they bring resources. And to lock them out simply because their campus has decided by virtue of the pandemic that they need to conduct Classes Online in the fall, it was just calloused and extraordinarily counterproductive. I have not had a chance to read in detail the reporting on it. But it looks like the Trump Administration saw that their effort to defend this policy in court was unlikely to succeed and they backed down. But seems to be a victory for our colleges and universities, our students across this country and across the world. Because so much of our appeal, our competitiveness, and our soft power depends on people around the world wanting to come here to learn and study and bringing their skills and talents. This is a good day. Host ambassador, lets keep talk about Foreign Policy. Originally as going to start this interview talking about the election in poland and the news of the reelection of polands president. He is an ally of President Trump and a supporter of the rights wing law and justice party. He has been condemned by the you and the watchdog. I am wondering, how if you think, President Trumps behavior in the Foreign Policy space, his support for leaders like this has contributed to the rise of illiberal nationalists and autocratic regimes around the world. Guest certainly legitimize the rise of elected autocrats. We see that increase in lean different parts of the world. Poland is the most recent example. It is unfortunate because poland as an important part of nato, an important part of the year. That is moving in a direction words and values and approach are completely out of step with the other members of the alliance. It suggests particularly when it comes to the eu of their could be in jeopardy down the road if there is a further move towards anti democratic policies and structures. Ambassador, it is not possible for the alliance to even survive if the superpower in the alliance, the United States, is not even to bother to champion the small democratic ideals that have been a cement for the alliance for more than seven decades . The Nato Alliance is under duress. Almost entirely because of President Trumps callous disregard for the purposes and the interest of this alliance. Our alliance with nato is ills on common values. Thats built on interest that we stand together as north American Allies and north atlantic allie allies. Annie europe broadly with those threats to our sovereignty and integrity which come chiefly from russia. And when the United States questions are alliances turns into a transactional and the President Trump unilaterally withdraws a third of our forces from germany without even consulting with the german government. From russia to china to north korea while putting our allies and very difficult position. It does great damage to the alliance. That is one of the reasons we need change. I dont know that we can stand former years of donald trump and thats why we need change of supporting the alliance is understanding who are friends are and adversaries are and are leadership and strength in the world is enhanced so we can ring partners and allies with us. We talk more about joe biden in a moment we talked at least a little bit about the news that broke that the u. S. Had received intelligence suggesting russia paid tele band fighters to kill american troops in afghanistan. Thats what you wrote for the New York Times quote as the best are commanderinchief is derelict in duty with the National Security process that is putting our country and those who where its uniform at great risk. At worst, the knighted states is being run by liars and wimps catering to its to radical president with actively advancing our arch adversaries nefarious interest. So my question to you, as it incompetence or treason . Theyre not necessarily mutually exclusive lobby say that. I did not use the word treason. My point is that one of two things i may be both are happening at once. We have a president who could care less about our extraordinary intelligence that the Intelligence Community deemed enough to put in the president s Daily Briefing the most important exclusive products they create that indicates the russians are paying caliban forces or taliban affiliated forces to kill american servicemen and women in afghanistan. What is the president of the United States do . First of all he does nothing when that information was brought to him. And i believe it was brought to him both in written form and perhaps earlier by one of my successors. But even today some two weeks or so after the investing engine information first came to public lights, President Trump and said and done nothing. Critical of russia did not indicate any concern for our forces in battle, is not to anyones knowledge initiate any action to respond to russia they say we dont think its truthful right wing to bother with it. Intelligence community believes its two or would not have put in the president ial Daily Briefing. Even more so, jonathan into a product called the wire which is the most widely disseminated peace of intelligence the u. S. Government produces, it goes everywhere including to capitol hill staffers. This had to be a peace of information in which they had a good degree of confidence which is virtually never the case. President trump is done nothing. He has left our forces vulnerable and bare. So either he is doing that out of some mysterious motivation to serve putins interest or which we have seen many desperate pieces of evidence over the course of the last four years, but no overarching explanation. Or, and or, is running a National Security process are so scared, so incompetent, that they are unwilling or unable to bring to him the information he must have to serve effectively as a commanderinchief protecting our forces in the field. Either way you look at it its a disaster. Either way you look at the message to Vladimir Putin if he can attack americans anywhere in the World Without impunity and he can be invited to join the g7. Is it possible that the president of the United States was not brief, did not know about this intelligence. Judging by the answer you just gave it is virtually impossible. Heres what i believe. I believe its been his daily president ial briefing. I believe he often doesnt read a. B. Always doesnt read his briefing. Any National Security advisor worth his or her salt would have read their Daily Briefing even if their boss doesnt. And when they saw that information it wouldve done what i would have done is walk directly into the office and brief the president of the United States orally if they knew he was not going to see it and writing. And say to the president , we have this deeply concerning information about russia, i am to work with the Intelligence Community to run it to ground and validated. In the meantime im going to work with the other agencies and principles to pull together some options to respond and ill keep you posted. Now the current National Security visor didnt do that that would be an abdication of his most basic responsibilities. If he did do that than the president is lying again. I also believe is john bolton has hinted information similar to this would come to light in 2019 will he was still National Security advisor. Certainly he would not of been so intimidated not to bring that information to the tension of the president. So i believe one way or another the president knew and is chosen not to act. Cemex said then ambassador rice my following question is giving everything and response of this is the president of the United States a National Security threat to the United States . I think by virtue of his dereliction of duty his failure to protect americans whether on the battlefield, in afghanistan or here at home on the face of a grave threat of coronavirus. And his very bizarre for cozying up to our adversaries enduring Vladimir Putin putins bidding is in fact acting against the interests of the United States. That is about as friendly as i can put it. We have a president who is acting against the interest of the United States. We also have a president who likes to spin concert at conspiracy theories and disseminate conspiracy theories. One is that president obama and the Obama Administration spied on his 2016 campaign and an interview in june he said it is treason. Look, when i came out a long time ago i said they have been spying on my campaign. That was meeting a modern day version of taping its all the same thing but a modernday version. They have been spying on my campaign. Did that happen . You know and i know and most of the American People know, no, it did not happen. That is false. That is another lie designed to deflect from the president s own very bizarre relationship with russia to distract from much validated reality that russia interfered in the 2016 election to benefit donald trump. And President Trump is in some dream about the Obama Administration when all we tried to do was execute the incoming administrations reluctance, the most responsible transition we possibly could. I presided over a process at the National Security council we prepared over 100 individual briefing papers for the incoming National Security adviser. I spent 12 hours in four separate sessions briefing my successor on all of the important issues that might arise or were on the table ranging from russia, to china, to pandemic preparedness. So our effort was despite the bizarre nature of the election despite President Trumps strange before, during, after, our approach was to do the utmost in a responsible handoff from one administration to the other, just as president bush had done for barack obama. One of those papers, you mention papers on pandemic. One was a 69 page paper that when we spoke in april you described it as pandemics for dummies. And you said we spoke in april that the idea of a pandemic was keeping me up at night because we have not begun to hit the top of the curve here. As for the president you said and he brags. Well if we hadnt done anything maybe twopoint to million would have died. So of the 240,000 is a good outcome. And what circle of hell is that a good outcome . Thats what you spoke to me in the podcast in april. Is it safe to say in three months later you were assessment is not change . Is changed, its gotten wors worse. Not only did they president President Trump waist two months and do nothing in january and february, brushing this off is no more than seasonal flu. Not only was he slow to recommend the shutdown of various states when they were in the throes of the first part of this crisis and march and april, then he came behind that all too quickly in the interests of his own reelection in the interest of his own personal benefit. Championed the premature reopening what were reaping now that irresponsible rush to reopen which is among the first to reopen . Introduce a very rapidly and without basic precautions went from very bad to worse in the numbers bear that out. It is frightening to contemplate how high the death toll may go. So long as donald trump is putting his own interest about the health, welfare, and economical wellbeing of the American People. Now hes champing the reopening of all schools everywhere with full class sizes and live teaching, regardless of the circumstances the local level. Nothing could be more irresponsible. He is willing to sacrifice the health and safety of our children, their teachers, the staff at these schools in order to convey the false reality, the false a message that america is back and ready to reopen. If we had done what people and countries in europe did, which is to wait until the curve was truly bent until the infection rate had gone down and the number of new infections was close to zero before beginning the process of reopening. Had we done it gradually and responsibly and mandated things like masks and had adequate testing and contact tracing, we would be in a much better place and they will be able to open with minimal risk coming the beginning of the school year. Now they faced this horrific choice of opening prematurely and putting all of the people in those schools, kids and adults and everybody and their families and community at enhanced risk. Or, kids will be forced to lose quality of learning. It did not have to be this way. Ambassador rice, given the spikes that have been happening around the country, i take it you dont think schools should reopen. I think you have to look at this at a local level. We have to look at what is the disease doing . How fast is it spreading . What is the really untried infection rate will . There are going to be places where things are relatively better than other places. But in the socalled hotspots of the south and the west, when schools are set to reopen sometime in august, it is very difficult to see how they can do so safely. And even when they do reopen the cdc guidance before it was a manipulated if its going to be manipulated and the advice of experts has been its very important to maintain social distancing in schools of at least 6 feet between students in a classroom. I was the cochair here in washington d. C. Of our mayors reopen d. C. Advisory group. And we work through all of these issues. I was particularly involved in the educational aspect of our recommendation. The reality is you cannot open safely if you cannot maintain that spacing. In most schools do not have the physical space to reduce class sizes by half or more which is what youre talking about to enable students to have that degree of space. So in many places, even when the risks are moderate to low, you are not going to have every student in the classroom all day every day. You are going to have to have some kind of cold hoarding or certain amount of days on in a certain amount of days off and on the off days do virtual learning. And then youll have kids, by virtue of their own healths stances are those of their parents or grandparents do not feel like it safe to return to school. You need to have some continued online learning. Even when its possible to have some version of the inperson teaching. So ambassador rice, do you think we as a nation, as we did earlier in the pandemic, should be locked out again . Should be shut down and stay at home again for at least two or three weeks in order to really truly been to the curve . In some parts of the country i think unfortunately we must. I think we see recognition of that in california where Governor Newsom ordered the bars close, restaurants closed for indoor dining, jims and churches in Major Population Centers and the like. In order to get a better grip on this. Nobody wants to be a lockdown. Everybody wants to get back in school. But to do so safely and sustainably requires we get that curve event and keep it down. Also it requires each of us as individuals recognize that we have to look out for ourselves. But we also have to look out for our fellow citizens. You may be healthy, i may be healthy, my kids may be healthy, but that doesnt mean we couldnt get very seriously ill with this disease. Nor does that mean we are not in a position to affect others who are more vulnerable. We are not coming together with a sense of common purpose and unity of effort thats necessary to defeat the virus. I blame that substantially in President Trump. If we had leadership that was calling on us to come together. That was preaching science and facts rather than bleach and hydroxyquinoline. Ive we had responsible leadership to put the interests of the American People are health, welfare, economic wellbeing first rather than his personal, political ambitions to be reelected, will be in a far safer better place. We will move to another pandemic or epidemic weve been dealing with in this country and that is racism. Lets talk about race. Have you visited black lives matter here in washington . Im also wondering we are at an Inflection Point with the National Protests that we see in the black lives matter in small towns and big cities all around the country . Are we at an Inflection Point are we having a slight detour on the well trod road we are used to going down . Jonathan my answer to that is it depends and it depends on us. I think what we saw over the past couple of months has been extraordinary in the wake of George Floyds murder. And those of others before him. We saw americans from all walks of life, white, black, latino, native american, rich, poor, and every state of this country. In towns at large and small, old people, young people, babies, all coming together mostly peacefully, to say once and for all that we live in a fundamentally Unequal Society or people who look like you and me are treated differently from those who dont. And that is unacceptable. And we have in fact after 400 years a reality that remains of systemic racism. It needs to be rooted out. And this at moment that has become a movement results and nothing than confederate flags being taken down. In my hometown Football Team finally changing its name, and confederate monuments being put in museums. It will be another momentous moment wasted. That we cannot allow. What we need, jonathan, beyond the symbolism and beyond steps that might be taken at the local level to address particular problems with policing in our respective communities, we need systemic reform to confront systemic racism. And that can only come through the acts of responsible congress and the president willing to sign those reforms into law. Its got to be the justice and policing act and much more in the criminal justice realm. Weve also got to do with educational disparity, health disparity, housing, lack of Job Opportunities patient color but at the forefront of clean energy. These are things we can do we have a president who cares and has a vision and commitment to rooting out systemic racism and we have a congress houses willing to back him up the meeting of this movement at the ballot box it can be much more so i want to squeeze in this audience question before and on ask about Vice President biden. I have not been having the idea of defunding the police mike what you think . I think the following. I am saying the terminology of defending the police. It has been manipulated and misunderstood by many. I think there is a place and certain local circumstances depending on what is going on in the particular area to really imagine, re envision the role police play to get them out of some of the work they customarily do that more akin to social work than policing a think they have to be attached to the community and responsible to the community. And yes, there are places where they can be responsible reallocation of resources. There is no onesizefitsall model. There is no cookiecutter approach you can apply. So i largely agree with Vice President biden and representative clapboard and others its reinvesting President Trump, likes to beat up people have called for defunding and if said of noxious and offensive things about the black lives matter movement. But yesterday called for defunding Public Schools that dont conform with this autocratic dictate that they reopen regardless of the health this is how upside down everything is coming out of this white house. Lets talk about this Vice President thing with talk about Vice President biden. You work closely with him during the two terms in the Obama Administration. Theres a great picture of him giving you a hug after your mother, lois dixon, passed away. Do you have the kind of relationship with Vice President biden where you could cuss each other out behind closed doors at 9 00 a. M. And be on the same page before the cameras at 915 . Yes. [laughter] it would end with a hug. Because that who is who he is. Joe bidens what you see. Hes warm, empathetic, hes decent, he does not use a lot of curse words by the way. But i cant always claim the same just in all candor. The reality is, joe biden is the kind of a leader who welcomes robust discussion and debate, looks for people who are unafraid to tell him the truth behind closed doors. But then we are one team one fight. Once the president makes a decision as barack obama did when joe biden was his best Vice President. Whether he had recommended that course of action or not, he was foursquare behind barack obama and implementing that policy. And that is what he deserves in his own Vice President whomever he may choose to fill that role. So aside from candor which is something what is the one other attribute you have that would serve in an biden ministration will so your constraining me to it one have added. So the most important attribute that i had and senior ranks of the executive branch for it i understand how to make the government deliver results. Iran the process some the most difficult crises the rise of isis or how to confront china, whatever it is, my job is National Security adviser in particular was to bring the agencies together thats what we need when i hope joe biden as president of the United States for going to have to tackle a pandemic in an economic crisis on the order of nothing like weve seen since the great depression. We will have to renew our leadership role in the world. And we will lead the world through this pandemic and economic recovery. We are going to have to deal with the Racial Justice issues we have been talking about what i call an inequality agenda for we can finally, immediately make adjustments and reforms necessary to redress the systemic inequalities and systemic racist. So one needs to bring the government together in common purpose with an understanding in the budget how to work with congress and how to get the business and the elements of governments harnessed towards shared objectives. Im jonathan, that is what i have done for the bulk of my career. I have done a predominantly from the realm of Foreign Policy Foreign Policy is now trade, climate, pandemics in Global Health at the wide span of issues. Those skills and that experienced translate into making government function whatever the agenda is. So and ambassador rice, last question, i mentioned your mother, lois rice who is known as the mother of the pell grant. Your father, emmett rice was an economist you come from a storied washington family. I was wondering, what do you think both of your parents would be saying to you or thinking right now to know that their daughter is being talked about as a possible Vice President of the United States . I wish so much, jonathan, i could talk to them and have that conversation with them. This is a moment where i miss their counsel and their loving advice more than almost any. I think they would be thinking about their parents and their grandparents. I come from immigrants, who came from jamaica to Portland Maine in 1912 with no education on nothing on my mothers side of the family. They saved and worked as a janitor, and sent all five of their kids to college and their children went on to become professionals. On my dads side he was the grandson of slaves. And he was able to rise out of jim crow in the deepest form of segregation in South Carolina in the 1920s and 30s and serve with the storied airman and go on to get his phd in economics and join the Federal Reserve board. I think they would be looking back on saying what a blessing that in this country, you can be an immigrant, you can be the descendent of slaves and you can still reap the opportunities of this great country. Now the reality is, jonathan, ive been extraordinarily blessed my parents were extraordinarily blessed. Not all of us, far far too many of us do not have the same blessings and opportunities that i have are my parents had. So i think what they would be saying now, is best i can guess, do what i have always done which is to serve in whatever capacity makes sense and bring my utmost to it and do it for the benefit of the people of this country. Not for myself, not for any ambition i might have but serving the people at a time that we are so divided, when there is so much suffering loss of life and Economic Hardship for the integrity of our democracy and community are all at risk. This is a moment i think they would say to me if you are asked in whatever capacity of got to get in there do your best and give back for all of the blessings youve had, ive had, and they have had. So ambassador susan rice thank you very much for coming back to the podcast, good luck we are keeping our eye out to see what happens thank you very much again for coming on Washington Post live. So thank you symmetry have any jonathan. The democratic and Republican Party the campaign for President Trump and joe biden, adjusting plans for the Political Convention next month and the coronavirus pandemic. The democrats are looking for a scaledback and milwaukee start in the 17th the republicans meet tuesday august 25 in jacksonville, florida for their convention for the democratic and Republican National Convention Live on cspan starting monday on august 17 watch anytime on cspan. Org or listen live with the free cspan radio app. Cspan, your unfiltered view of politics. later State University of new york economics professor stephanie and Senior Reporter Zachary Carter talk about modern economic theories and whether they still hold up. I will consider every conversation highly classified prethat would mean if you wrote a book and that the book gets out, he has broken the