Outbreak of covid19 has led to an unprecedented Public Health crisis and a dire economic crisis. We have lost over 110,000 people to the disease, and 40 million remain unemployed. Back in february as the band that it was worse, we knew we needed to take action to help our Small Businesses survive the economic downturn. We started working with the sba and governors around the country to leverage the sba disaster resources available. Can you please mute . Anyone should be muted. Everyone should be muted. As the virus continues to spread, or state and local governments began imposing stayathome orders and business closures. We quickly realized Congress Needed to do more to meet the full scope of the problem, and that is when we started working on what ultimately became the cares act. To help Small Businesses and eligible nonprofits, congress created a new Paycheck Protection Program, expanded eligibility to the program and provided payment and interest relief for current sba borrowers. I worked tirelessly to secure 10 billion in funding to create a new eidl Emergency Grant Program which were designed to get money into the hands of struggling Small Businesses quickly. Borrowers could request a loan advance of up to 10,000 within three days of applying that needs not to be repaid even if the applicant was eventually denied the eidl. And due to the Unprecedented Demand for the program, congress infuse another 10 billion into Emergency Grant Program and an additional 50 billion in the loan program as part of the Paycheck Protection Program and healthcare enhancement act. Congress salaries and expenses to hire staff, upgrade technology and ultimately respond to demand in a timely, efficient fashion. Despite these steps and more than three months after Congress First enacted legislation to provide Economic Relief to the Small Businesses, borrowers are still significant challenges idle grants and loans. One example, idle loans maximum loan size of 2 million we learned that sba impose a maximum loan size of 150,000, shortchanging millions of Small Businesses. Unfortunately we also learned that sba is limiting the crucial grants to 1000 per employee. And some are not even receiving the grants at all which is simply unacceptable. This [inaudible] could have for Small Businesses that need help the most. Weve also heard that the sba has not communicated effectively with applicants know or has a provide them with reliable to check the status of their application to applicants need to know where they stand in the queue to approximate how much longer they can expect to wait to receive financing. And given the current economic climate, if they are going to be denied, they deserve timely action so that they can explore options for capital elsewhere. These are just some of the reports the committee has received where the sba administration of the eidl program in the current covid19 era. As the committee undertakes its oversight duties, we want to begin by hearing directly from Small Businesses who have applied for the program so that we can understand the successes and challenges they have experienced. However, in order to fully perform our work we also need to hear from the Small Business administration. Without their appearance and testimony before this committee, it would be difficult to make additional changes to the agencies program. Earlier today administrator carranza testified before the senate Small Business committee, and it is my hope that she will testify before us soon as well. With that i look for to hearing from our witnesses about their perspective on how congress can keep working to improve the eidl program and where we should focus our oversight efforts. I now yielded to the Ranking Member for his opening statemen statement. [inaudible] can you hear me now . Yes . Thank you very much. Thank you, madam chair for holding this important hearing relative to the sba is eidl loan program. Before i begin my comments i i would like to comment about the virtual format were having here today and i certainly do not hope that should hold you responsible for this but i think the speaker should have the house of representatives in session. With off a lot of important work to do. Obviously relative Small Businesses but there are still many other issues the country facing right now. Congress ought to be together. We represent the american people, and dealing with these various challenges that our nation has before us, we ought to be here. I happen to be in washington right now in my office because im also on the Judiciary Committee and we have a hearing going on as i speak with relative to the tragic killing of george floyd and the aftermath of that. I was there this morning. After i give my Opening Statement i actually have to go back there because ill be asking questions shortly here. But again, i dont hold you responsible, madam chair. I think tremendous job. I would prefer if you with the Ranking Member rather than the chairman but we both exchange those positions on occasion over the years that i think youre great job. But congress should be in session and i cant emphasize that strong enough. Relative to the eidl loan program, it operates within the sba is Disaster Loan Program and was already up and running as we know long before the covid19 slipped across the globe. Support the note that a Disaster Loan Program has had its trouble in the past but it was consistently making improvements. Created by, it supposed be a regional that provides assistance to Small Businesses after a disaster, covid19 has presented numerous challenges to the program. The economic downturn caused by the Coronavirus Crisis completely overwhelm the eidl program. As the crisis unfolded, the lines of communication from the sba the businesses about the eidl program unfortunately has deteriorated. Additionally, the total loan amount and the grant amount available in the program continue to be uncertain. These hurdles and roadblocks have impacted the Small Business ability to make important and critical decisions during these uncertain times. Thus far, the programs provide assistance to over 1 million Small Businesses all across the country to the tune of approximately 80 billion. In my home state of ohio its provide over 25,000 loans for a total of over 1. 7 billion. Today communication is slowly improving but certainly more work needs to be done and i commend you, madam chair, are holding this hearing in order to assist us in getting that job done [inaudible] we obviously sent a letter together in a bipartisan manner just recently urging the sba that they have a lot of things they have to improve on. Its medically important that we have this discussion to understand how Small Businesses have fared during this crisis and how congress can work to make improvements. Throughout this entire crisis i joined dozens in my house colleagues on Conference Calls in town Hall Meetings and a whole range of calls, conferee calls with Small Businesses in their districts. Questions on the eidl program were raised on a great many of these calls. Obviously their principal interest within the ppp, the Paycheck Protection Program, but the eidl loan program is still there and dramatic improvement is needed. Congress has worked in a bipartisan manner to improve the Paycheck Protection Program. We must now Work Together to ensure that the eidl program is operating efficiently and effectively for Small Businesses during this pandemic, and following. I look forward to discussing solutions and next steps with all of our Witnesses Today. Its important we move forward with practical reforms that deliver for Small Businesses. In my district and your district and districts all across the country. Madam chair, i mentioned all in my Opening Statement i have to go back to the floyd and judiciary hearings so i will be heading over there. Im not sure if i will be back in time for the question our ottawa to thank you for link this hearing, and i yield back. Thank you, mr. Charlotte. What i have for you, you may have to wait a little longer mr. Cavett. Okay. Go from ranking to chair. [laughing] i would like to take a moment to explain how this hearing will proceed. Each witness 15 minutes to provide a statement and each Committee Member will have five minutes for questioning. Please make sure your mic is on when you begin speaking and you return to mute when finished. With that i would like to thank our witnesses for taking time out of their busy schedule to join us. With us today we have ms. Nancy sexton, the owner of the muse rooms in the los angeles area. After a career in the arts she received her in august 2015 and taught herself how to write a Business Plan to get started. In just four years for business successfully grew in two locations right before covid19. She applied for an eidl but encountered many of the challenges that have been reported with the program. Ms. Sexton, thank you for joining us today and for sharing your experience. I now would like to recognize the vice chairman of the committee to and reduce our second witness. Thank you, madam chair. I like the sound of that. Mr. Jerome whack is a a pharmat and the owner of christian strret pharmacy located in the diverse neighborhood of south philadelphia. He has owned and operated the pharmacy since he graduated from army to school 33 years ago. Mr. Whack is a lifelong resident of philadelphia where he attended two of my districts many excellent colleges, Temple University and Unity College of philadelphia. I could not ask for a greater representative from my district to speak to the Small Business committee on this important topic. I command your commitment to serving and supporting the amazing citizens of philadelphia, and thank you for pets fading participating in this hearing. I yield back. Thank you, mr. Evans. And now id like to recognize mr. Schneider of illinois to introduce our third witness. Thank you, madam chair. It is my great pleasure to introduce my constituent dr. Craig gerstein and to thank him for sharing his perspective with us today. Dr. Gerstein lives in Highland Park and has is practice ophthalmology in the chicago area for the past 20 years and he will share that story in the moment. He runs the Gerstein Eye Institute joined with his father who started the practice more than 50 years ago. Dr. Gerstein earned his medical degree from chicago medical school. In addition to his practice he also serves as an assistant professor of ophthalmology at Northwestern University medical center. I have known him for many years and appreciative sharing his perspective as a Small Business owner, navigating both the complexities of this pandemic but also the challenges he faced with the eidl mode. Thank you for joining us today, craig. Thank you come mr. Schneider. And now i would like to turn it over to mr. Bishop to introduce our last witness. Thank you, madam chair. Our next witness is karen kerrigan, the president and chief executive officer and thought Leadership Council also known as the sbe council. Ms. Kerrigan has multiple decades of advocating for Small Businesses and the entire Small Business ecosystem with an expertise in startup funding in business growth. She serves on numerous boards and coalitions. Ms. Kerrigan, welcome. Madam chair, i yield back. Hanky. Now i would like to recognize ms. Sexton for five minutes. Thank you, madam chairwoman and the entire committee on Small Business trust me to come in today and share with you the challenges that i faced when applying and receiving the eidl loan. And like you said, my name is nancy sexton and it own Owner Operator the muse rooms, coworking space in hollywood california. Im not from ellie. Is born and raised in ohio. I was in new york for almost 12 years and i lived in italy for four. Ive had a lot of great a call to shoot my outside of mirroring my husband, nothing is make me proud opening the muse rooms. Just lino the muse rooms is a coworking space and we provide a workspace for entrepreneurs, creators and Small Businesses. We offer desk space offices and meeting rooms. The muse rooms started with my dick in august 2015 and within 3 months we opened. We were so successful that that summer we decided to open our second location in burbank and then were able to go back and expand our first location and within four and half years with expanded to 14,000 square feet with over 120 members. Then covid hit. We shatter our doors on march 17 prior to mary karr said hes stayathome order. Mayor garcetti here how can you charge somebody if they cant use your service . The sba announced their loans and then worked with the l. A. Network to get all my ducks in a row to apply because there was a ton of paperwork that was required. On march 23 i started the eidl loan process and this is when i started uploading my documents. Over the course of the next seven days i was on hold for more than 25 hours and i had uploaded my application. I had faxed it, emailed it and each time i was told no, no, no hear youre doing the wrong thing. Finally on the 30th i was told you just had to go to this new portal, super easy, itll take five minutes. You dont even need documents. Some went to a new portal and it was super easy. So easy in fact, that i didnt even get an email confirmation that i had applied. I was smart enough to write down my loan number so when i called back i had a point of reference. When i called i was always told look, these are the next steps. Youll get an email, or log in to the portal and you can talk to somebody. They will look at your documents and they tell you how much money youre going to get and it should be two and half times the monthly bills. Remember, im not making any money and my bills are stacking up. On the 21st of april i finally received my advance. It was only a grand because i dont have employees. I was super psyched because my neighbor next door, he had already gotten funded and he received more than what he thought. So over the next ten days i called several times wondering what was happening because nothing was being communicated. No emails, no answers. When you called you get a different answer each time. Now on may 1, my credit was bold and i get really excited. I got two landlords with her hands. I have no income. I called i get the same story. Youll get an email, talk to somebody, submit loan documents. Dont worry. May 16 i got that email, and when i logged in to see the amount that was being offered, it did not even cover one month of my expenses. So i called and i was told by the woman on the phone, she read a statement to me or people who were calling in requesting more money than what was being offered. And she told me this, that in order for all businesses to get a little money, they were limiting the amount distributed. Remember, this was when it was supposed to be giving up to 150k. I was taken aback, pretty upset. I had no one to talk to. I couldnt call anybody and no one to plead my case two. So the sba eidl loan that i thought was going to save my business has now put me in a position that guarantees that i am going to have to close one of my locations. And i dont know how long that will last. The stress of covid was bad enough. Seriously, this sba loan experience, the 58 days of not knowing anything, on top of covid, this has been the most stressful period either experienced, ever. Its been horrendous. Look, my entire business is built on Customer Service. Good communication is king, and let me tell you, without that, youre sending businesses into absolute chaos, and and i thanu for my time. Thank you, ms. Sexton. Your time has expired and now we recognize mr. Whack for five minutes. Hello. Can you hear me. With yes, we can hear you. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before your committee today. And i do apologize for the problem im having with my camera. Im very computer illiterate. My son set this up and, of course, today its not working. It worked last night. We did a dry run. But i would just like to thank you and you just basically highlight the testimony that i wrote and i hope you have in front of me. Very quickly, as congressman dwight evans stated, im a longtime resident of philadelphia, pennsylvania. I came here very john as an infant with a great migration from the south. My folks were from south carolina. They left after my father got out of the navy after world war ii, came to philadelphia. He wanted to have a better life for me and my other Seven Brothers and sisters. Ive been here at christian strret pharmacy since about 1987, and over the years this area has changed tremendously. When i came down here it was known for, the word was moral hazard. They wouldnt even get insurance on the building because it was predominantly black and red line. Ask forwarding to 2020, it is about 90 white its been gentrified, what i call landlocked as cvs is two blocks away from it, walgreens, two blocks away from me, and im still in the process of holding on to the clients that i had prior to this. Pharmacy, unfortunately, is a very narrow profit margin Business Today with the competition that i just dated to you. Its very difficult normally with a very low rate of reimbursement, its particularly hard with the copays. Many of the people that i serve our poor that part of the 25 of the people that the pew shared with trust identified in at or below the Poverty Level in philadelphia, and yes, most of them look just like me and congressman dwight evans. What weve been doing is we have been giving free deliveries, and we run what they call tabs, folks who do not have the copays to cover their medicine, we fill it and able to access their funds the first of the month with sauces could come when of insurance they have. They will come and straighten their tap out. In view of whats happened in the country with the covid19 crisis, many of these people are very financially strapped and unable to pay the copays. For the most part we have had to eat it. When i say eat it, we forgo the copays and were operating at a loss. The profit margin for independent Retail Pharmacy in todays climate, according to the National Committee of retail pharmacists, is around the 5 . Slowed down once reimbursement, its like being caught in a threeway street. You cant get your copays. Youre not being properly reimbursed and on top of that. I was turned down for the sba loan. So its a matter of trying to stay afloat and navigate through these very difficult times. To give you a quick, quick, a small pharmacy 50 prescriptions a day. Medium pharmacy 1 and 200 pharmacies a day and a high volume pharmacy greater than 200 prescriptions a day. Lets make it simple. If you filled 50 prescription as day at the lowest copay, 2. Potentially you can lose 100 a day. And this is, you know, over and above the other cash crunches that youre dealing with. So its put me in a pretty, pretty hard position this way, not to mention the kinds of expenses that you need just to operate. A philadelphia electric company, the gas works, verizon and the like. [inaudible] can you hear me . This is we hear you. We hear you. To let you know, its been very difficult. I did go to the process to apply for the sba loan and i had great difficulties. Took me like a couple of weeks roughly and then they started to advertise that you could go to your local bank. They had some kind of portal or some kind of mechanism to go through the bank and apply for loan and finally, i did that one evening, i believe it was on the weekend. So, basically, its been a challenge and i do ask the Committee Members if you would kindly look into the reason that sba is utilizing a credit check to either deny or allow someone to receive an sba loan. Thank you so much. Can you hear me . Youre muted, madam chairman. We hear you. Can you unmute. Yes, im unmute. Youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Madam chairman and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to speak regarding with my experience with the sba and in regards to the eidl program. Im a off moll gist. I spent that evening locating the necessary forms and next day on march 24th, i began the process to apply for the loan. Despite several crashes. Website and countless hours, i was able to complete my application 13 hours later. I received an email that my application had been received and another application another email saying that my application was under review. I was asked questions and told that my loan was pending and in three weeks a loan officer could contact me regarding my approval and discuss the amount i could borrow. Three weeks from the date, my status changed from pending, to please reapply. I was told three weeks later to reapply. I completed the new selfcertification form hoping it was an addendum and i received a new application number and i immediately called the sba help line trying to figure out why i had two numbers. I was concerned that i was going to lose my position in line as the loans were said to be a first come, first served basis. The help line representative was unable to explain what had happened. I wrote a detailed email to the sba Customer Service and never received an answer to my question. Instead, i received a response that directed me to three options, either connect the application page, call the help line or write another email. After weeks of uncertainty sba could provide no answers. I couldnt use the website which had been removed. The help desk didnt address my concerns and the email offered nothing, but an automatic reply. In desperation i continued a send several emails and i sent a letter to the congressman for help. While the congressman attempted to get help from the liaison, i called the help line four weeks out. At that time the representative explains that the lone application submitted prior to the cares act were disregarded and that individuals needed to reapply. I finally received an email response from the disaster Customer Service on april 25th, that simply stated, you had to reapply because sba developed a new streamline application process and those who applied before had to reapply. I received this notification as the s about. Sba ran out of funds and shut down the process. I was left unknowing if my completed application and what having two applications meant for my position in line for the loan. Uncertainty kills Small Businesses, we have rent, utility, health, mal practice insurance and the expenses of my staff. I needed information and loan details to decide me to keep going or close up shop. We needed concrete answers. Unfortunately hope doesnt put meals on the table. Then i was notified i accepted the loan and to this date i have not received an answer from the sba. I hope my experience highlights while the sba and cares act looked at Small Business needs the lack of transparency continue to stress that i and other Business Owners were experiencing during this economic uncertainty. The reality of the process in dealing with the sba and specifically eidl program fell significantly short of what was promised through rhetoric and reassurances. I hope in the future theres more done by congress to hold these loan programs accountable and to assure that the fda is able to properly allocate the needed funds and communicate to Small Business owners during a time of great uncertainty. Thank you for allowing me to the time to address this committee. Thank you. And now we recognize miss kerrigan for five minutes. Thank you so much, chairwoman, its an honor to be here today. Thank you for your leadership of the committee and everything that you and the Ranking Member and all the Committee Members are doing to help Small Businesses during this very, very challenging period. We appreciated your early work in getting information out about what needed to be done to change the ppp program. Obviously, all of the members of the committee and you listened to Small Business owners and were just so pleased that the Paycheck Protection Program flexibility act is now the law of the land and its going to help Small Businesses. But we continue to work to make even more improvements because there is a lot more that needs to be done. When i as the membership organization, with 100,000 members throughout the country and being around now for over 25 years, and you know, when i listened to craig and nancy and jerome, you know, im hearing the members, the stories of my members as well. I mean, theres what they went through in terms of the program is mirrors everything that our members have gone through and with an organization that worked with the Small Business administration for the past 25 years in a lot of its programs and education and training programs, special initiatives, we dont take any pleasure in pointing out the problems and challenges with the eidl program and all of us knew that the sba had a heavy and unpress departmented lift in launching this program. We, at sba council and the other Small Business advocacy organizations that we work would, we understood there was going to be massive demand for capital in the Small Business community, but limited funds available. Especially in that First Tranche of money where the eidl program really was a very, very, have he very small amount. And given the challenges and execution, our Small Business members that eventually received funds are grateful for this needed capital. But as you well know, there are many Small Businesses that got lost in the queue that did not receive funds when needed it or expect it had and of course, were surprised by the dahl limits placed on the maximum loan amount and the per employee advanced limitation. As i expressed in my written testimony, we believe that a fair amount this have agngst experienced by Small Business owner Witnesses Today about these about the problems, the communication that was generated by the program really could have been avoided, to be transparent and immediate communication about these changes. On paper and as advanced by congress in the cares act, the eidl loans were ideally suited for many types of Small Businesses. Business owners and entrepreneurs were pleased to see a program Pass Congress that would meet their immediate Capital Needs and provide some flexibility in using these funds and would, as advertised, deliver this capital with speed. Eidls breakdown as communicated by our members, Small Business owners across the country and of course, our Witnesses Today was was and continues to be very sad to hear. Most Small Business owners were obviously shocked by the effects of covid19 and you know, just the dramatic actions that happened afterwards, the plunge in demand and revenues, and they were desperate to identify sources of capital that could act as a bridge to their reopening. These areas of concern, as noted by our written testimony, including the lack of information about application status, hearing no communication from the sba for long stretches of time. The shrinking advance based on employee numbers, the much smaller loan cap than advertised by the program and provided for by the cares act. Confusion about how loan amounts were determined by the sba, and then of course, eventually them being shut out of the program due to the agricultural window that was established. So no doubt this crisis has been like none other and unfortunately, manile Small Businesses needing help through the eidl program and expressing frustration with the program when every minute of your time is valuable. Focus on Productive Work and activity to carry them through t the im sorry, miss kerrigan, your time expired. I want to thank the witnesses for everything. And i will start by recognizing myself for five minutes. I understand that you were drawn to the eid lchl program b the two million maximum loan size and disappointed to learn of sba 150,000 cap. I understand Unprecedented Demand for the program for fda to make some difficult decisions, but then still being operated according to the law. And so, can you share with us how this smaller loan amount affected your business . Yes, thank you. Thank you, madam chairwoman. I would tell you, the first issue is the complete uncertainty. Many of us didnt even know if we were going to get any money at all and then we were counting on at least being able to communicate with someone what type of needs we had and how that loan was going to eventually help us. The 150,000 that i was granted was barely enough to cover my expenses for a month and at this time i am still not operating at 100 not even close to my normal pre covid level. In fact for the last two months weve been seeing maybe 15 of my normal patient volume and were not we werent operating until approximately about three weeks ago. So to not know whats happening and then finally just to be given a certain amount of money with no answers, with no recourse to try to appeal really kind of sets me, as a Small Business, now i have to explore other avenues. Now im starting from, you know, from the beginning, again, trying to look at different aspects of kind of that i can get capital in order to maintain my business. Thank you dr. Gerstein. Miss kerrigan, i agree with you that probably we might need to do more. We might have to do another relief package. We do not know if how this program has worked. We dont have any data. There is not an explanation that has been provided to us as to the decisions that were ma made, changing the loan size from two million to 150,000. Then like dr. Gerstein and mix miss sexton explained they were not habel to get any explanation as to the status of their loan application. So do you agree with me that as a member of this committee, we cannot move to make any other changes or expand the program without the administration coming before the committee and provide the information that is required for members of congress to do our job and that is to get to the bottom of what happened so that it might be required to make some legislative changes . Oh, i agree totally. I mean, we need that information, that data from the sba and we need what went into the Decision Making in terms of, you know, going off course from what was actually in the cares act. And, yes, i mean, in order to do your jobs, and it would be great if we had more moan, it would be great if we could make those Small Businesses whole that didnt receive the 10,000 grant as they were promised and perhaps more money can be provided for that. Yeah, i think taxpayers, the American Public want you to have as much information as possible. Data, feedback, in order to know what is the path forward with this program. Its absolutely critical, critical, critical. Thank you so much. Would it be helpful for applicants if sba clearly communicated its minimum, so applicants would know exactly where they stand prior to applying for a disaster loan . Mr. Could you hear me . Yes, now. I think that would be a good first step because in addition to waiting like a couple of weeks to be able to get onto the website, and in such a state of anxiety, not even knowing if youre going to be approved and when they did give me a response, that was also not that great. It took them like almost a month later to give me a response and then it was kind of vague. I mean, unsatisfactory credit didnt really mean a lot to me. I mean, was is 600 the cutoff . Is 400 . I mean, what was it . And was there something i could have done perhaps in filling out the application that would have made me change the way that they looked at the application . Thank you, mr. Whack. My time is expired and now i recognize for five minutes thank you, madam chair, im sorry, you cut out there, i cant hear my full name there. I apologize. Thank you everyone for being here and my first question will be for mrs. Kerrigan. Thank you for joining us today. My questions as you all as you know, are too aware, this has been a devastating time period for our nation, Small Businesses have been forced to severely reduce their operations or sadly have been forced to close their doors. Ive been in constant communication was in my district during this time and something the constituents routinely bring up in your testimony. The Research Done for the sba council how have they benefitted from the Small Businesses . Theyve benefitted some. There have been a lot of Small Businesses that have not been able to benefit from these programs. If you look at ppp program, for example, when it first started, it was those that were largely connected to their banks and to their financial institutions. He think more banks came joen line, community banks, Credit Unions, and even the addition, i think particularly of fin tech, this made a big difference in getting this capital to a lot of those who dont didnt have sort of that commercial banking loan relationship, you know, with their banks or with their financial institutions. So, as the programs as the programs went on, both, you know, ppp and eidl got better in terms of communication and in terms of their funding. I think with the eidl program, its a different animal because with ppp, you do have many players at the private sector that are involved, right, with the distribution of that capital. And more players involved. Whereas the eidl is sba loan, and you know, it may be time that we begin to look at some type of ppp, private, you know, Public Partnership if we want to do Something Like this moving forward because, you know, its apparent that the sba didnt have the capacity, the technology, the Artificial Intelligence all that needed to do this very, very rapidly and quickly. And thats what Small Businesses needed, whether it was ppp or eidl was rapid access to capital. So, i mean, hopefully we wont have an event like this moving forward, but we might and weve got to be prepared for it. Given that we do have technology, the innovation, i dont see why we dont do this rapidly. More rapidly, and i think thats the big issue is getting this money to businesses rapidly and being able to communicate them. So that they can make decisions about where theyre going to be going, and help them navigate, which, you know, this recovery period. Thank you very much. Madam chair, i yield back. Thank you. The gentleman yields back and now we recognize the gentle lady from iowa for five minutes. Thank you so much, madam chair. Its good to see you and the folks on the committee and the folks who have joined us to share their perspective and help us do our jobs on oversight here. One thing that i had been focused on a lot during this pandemic is, you know, we passed these bills, cares act signed into law where the dollars go to these agencies, but at the end of the day its often these agencies how they put these dollars out. What the rules and regulations are behind them and it just underscores how important toss to do the oversight with these agencies and make sure theyre getting out to our community in the right way. So thank you, thank you, thank you, madam, chair, for holding this hearing today, helping us do this the right way. And we clearly, listening to testimony today and also hearing from my constituents throughout the First District in iowa, have a lot of work to do when it comes to oversight with the Small Business administration and how these programs have been rolled out and also, how theyre moving forward here. So dr. Gerstein, i actually, id love to ask you a question. I chair the Rule Development agriculture trade and entrepreneurship subcommittee on the Small Business committee. And something that our subcommittee heard about when we held a discussion a few weeks ago, was from a woman, melissa mauerets, a woman from my district, and shes also a farmer and many Business Owners didnt have the information to determine which Small Business program would work best for their business model. Mou did you arrive for the decision to apply for the idle loan rather than the paycheck protection loan . And in hindsight for the award being less than you needed would you still have applied for the idle loan or would you have applied for instance, at all, given what you know now . Ill let you answer that part first and then i have a followup for you. Sure. Having gone through first to answer, having gone through the experience i would not go through the experience ever again. It was traumatic, it was stressful. There was no communication. It took tons and tons and tons and tons of my time trying to education myself and trying to figure out avenues to try to get answers. And i did apply for a ppp loan and i consciencely did not go through the sba, there was no communication with the sba and i didnt want to go down that road again trying for something and not being able to talk to somebody versus a bank where you can make a phone call and get an answer. To answer that part. The way i got the information was the town hall through congressman snyders office. He kind of laid out certain Different Programming and that was the loan that seemed to promise the most. And that was the loan initially that was before the ppp was out. And it was passed. So and what really was terrifying to a Small Business, especially myself, was that constant reminder of this is going to be first come, first served. So, you knew you could see the need was out there and you knew that you needed to get things done in order to get in that line and thats where a lot of my stress came because i was applying and i did everything right. I hung in there just to get that application in only to fall into the abyss. And i know we only have a few seconds left here so what Additional Resources would have been helpful during that process from the Small Business administration and then also, now that you know what you know now, what would you hope they do moving forward here . Well, the two i think so this i can say, and im not expert on running the sba in any regard, but i could tell you communication is paramount especially with Small Businesses. We need to know where we are. We need to know when we can expect a decision to be made and which, i remember in the beginning, i was very upset that i couldnt request the amount i was asking for. There was no where on the form to even say this is what my need was. And that was very stressful. So, the more transparency, and better infrastructure to deal with the Small Businesses. The gentle ladys time has expired. We recognize the gentleman from oklahoma for five minutes. Thank you, madam chairwoman, i know the Ranking Member had to leave for committee, and i want to thank the witnesses being here certainly during these difficult times. I always like to start out this way, but as a Small Business owner for over 35 years, i certainly feel the pain when we have these kind of disasters and 35 years, ive seen a few. Obviously nothing as severe of what were seeing now and during these difficult times were going to have stresses on our system and weve seen those and as we all know, the sba has done about 20 years worth of work in 12 weeks. Have oversight is good. It gives us an opportunity to test the stress of our system, that we also want to thank the great work all of us have done in a bipartisan way and in getting the ppp loans out and the auto programs out and we know that estimates saved up to 50 million jobs in america. And weve got to be concerned about whats getting ready to happen as we roll off of these loans. As some of you may know, in the programs done over several hundred thousands in loans, upwards of 80 billion in loan dollars and in my state, its about 7200 loans and almost half a billion dollars loans. As we work, i think the administrator is working hard to figure out and listen, the chairwoman mentioned on the Small Business side. I, too, would like her to come back to our committee and hear what we have to say through our fact finding. Ms. Cayer kerrigan, were not here to dwell on past mistakes, about you to move forward. Can we talk about solutions on the issues and about the mistakes . What are some of the solutions that you think the sba could implement moving forward to protect the auto program and therefore helping more and more struggling Small Businesses . Congressman youre right. This was unprecedented and the charge given to the sba was unprecedented. So certainly understand that theyve had their challenges over the years and i think the key one is communication. As you heard through the testimony today and as were hearing from our members, the bad news, dont want to hear it from the sba in terms of were not going to turn around your loan or youre not going to get the capital in three days, as was promised, right . Its going to take longer. Theres massive demand. And or, you know, we ran out of money or were going to run out of money within a shortened period of time. The more communication is better for Small Business owners because as you know, as a business owner, you can make decisions based on that, right . So more information is better. You know, i think the other thing with all of these programs, and including ppp, congressman, is that, you know, as the law is passed by congress, that is how it has to be implemented by the agencies. Obviously, they should be given some discretion on things, Like Congress gives them. But if the law actually says, you know, 10,000 a 10,000 advance for the amount, the max loan is 2 million, i mean, this is these are, i think, you know, the agency has to follow the will of congress on this and if the money runs out like that, then congress can make the decision to fill the money again. But the other thing is, also and again, in a perfect world, all of these programs would have rolled out at the same time including the main Street Lending program because they matched certain businesses and they aligned with businesses, but that didnt happen, okay . And i think the other big piece looking at this, what is the sba . What is their capacity and what are they capable of doing in this regard . And where do we need to call on the private sector and use financial technology. Miss kerrigan, if i may i only get one question before we run out of time. Im going on. No, youre fine. We stalk about sba and a lot of government programs, one size all fit is very difficult. And will you talk you alluded a minute ago to what private strit could do to facilitate, what private businesses could do. In the traditional ibanking institutions are a part of that and it took a while for them to bring on fintec, small loans, 15, 20,000 for banks werent interfacing with and serving. I think they need to think forward and be Technology Driven and i think thats the same way with these programs as well in terms of these publicprivate partnerships, bringing sort of the power of technology and looking at financial, you know, technology as a solution to all of this. I really think it needs to be incorporated over the sba. And the gentlemans time has expired. Thank you, madam chair. The gentleman from maine, mr. Golden for five minutes. Thank you very much, madam chair. You can hear me all right . Yes, we can hear you. All right. I wanted to make sure. Miss kerrigan, i wanted to ask a little bit more from you. Ive been hearing from a lot of constituents in bar harbor and auburn, maine who would like to use a economn Economic Injury deduction loan right now, but theyve been shut out because theyre not agricultural businesses. I was wondering if any of your members have been finding themselves in a similar situation of late . Yes, absolutely. Absolutely they have. And you know, again, its dispiriti dispiriting, and we have farmers and members of the agricultural sector, Small Businesses, that are part of the sba council. What the sba wanted to do to compensate for them being shut out of the program earlier. At the same time, youre shutting out whole swaths of the business sector, Diverse Businesses and again, it goes back to look it, the program should be open to everyone. If it runs out of money, we need once we know the data and where we need to go, then, you know, it can be refueled or refunded based on that. So, yeah, that was sort of a little of the government picking winners and losers in the marketplace although we love our farmers and members who are farmers for sure. Certainly we do. You know, you were talking a little about implementing the program the way that it is drafted and in statute. You know, if the money runs out you come and you make the strong case for the back end of the Business Community similar to what we saw with the Paycheck Protection Program, although they obviously had a little leeway in the process there as well. But i had businesses, like an independent trucker, tours and businesses in my business reach out, frustrated with, you know, feeling like they had experienced the bait and switch when the eidl was downside in the amount that they could receive in the capital heavy businesses and also when they were told they were limited to 1,000 on the grant side. That was part of the original reason why they were so interested in going off eidl than pursuing ppp in the early weeks knowing that the grant was out there and they wanted access to some revenue as quickly as possible. And mrs. Sexton, i wanted to recognize your frustration with the repeated delays that you experienced, processing your eidl application. I know in my office we heard from businesses all over the district who had a lot of similar experiences and all of you made the point about the importance of Clear Communications so you can at least make informed decisions which is what weve been hearing and my staff has been hearing from businesses here in the state of maine. Often it was the waiting many weeks, you know, that was most disturbing because it delayed them from making other potential decisions and pursuing other means of surviving through this. Its not to say that these werent important programs and that they havent worked to help businesses. When they have worked smoothly. But i just want to acknowledge the frustration that youve all shared and thank you for sharing it with us. I think the key point there is, as youve said, communication, not only between sba and the committee in congress, but also, sba and the ultimate client, which is the Small Business community. So thanks for taking part in this today and sharing those. Im hoping that, im sure i have no doubt that the sba is listening to your testimony today making note and that theyre going to be engaging with their clients, the Business Community and the lenders out there for feedback and how to improve the programs going forward. With that i would yield back, madam chair. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. Now we recognize the gentleman from tennessee for five minutes. Am i muted . Do you all hear me . Okay. Great. Hey, ive heard from everybody and i appreciate everybody, our excellent testimony given and i also want to welcome new member mr. Ma thumy to the committee and looking from afar. Ive heard whats gone wrong and heard all of those complaints from the constituents. I wonder if each you could talk about what has gone right in what weve tried to do. Maybe we can amplify some of that and ill yield to our folks. Ill just say, ill start with that, congressman, and say, look it, for the businesses, for the Small Businesses that were able to access the eidl money. Theyre grateful for that support, for that capital. I think with the ppp program, it was really good to see the pivot, you know, that was made on that in terms of making the modifications and changes that would make the program flexible, practical and relevant for Small Businesses, particularly given the extension of the shutdowns and what was happening on the ground. I mean, from our perspective we would have loved the ppp changes to come more quickly, but, look it, they happened and thats good. You all were listening to Small Businesses and you made those changes and i think, you know, that needs to happen over at the sba, too. But again, this is a whole big Different Program and i do think now Congress Needs to look forward and say, is it something that sba should be doing as a en entity . For the businesses that got the money and Early Intervention and tax credits and all of those things, those are making a big difference for Small Business. Any of the others . Yes, what i would say is, what was done right was that congress definitely there was an emphasis on helping Small Business. It wasnt just helping individuals, it was really an attempt to help the Small Businesses out there that were nofault of their own were shutting down or operating at very limited capacity. Unfortunately, what was what seemed like a great idea in the execution did not match and the frustration was listening to the promises and being excited about the idea and then the reality of really, of not being able to access the funds or not get your questions answered, but being transferred there. Yeah, and i could say that for me, what went right was, unfortunately very little. What did go right was my ability to react very quickly when i saw that sba dropped the ball. We started a Gofundme Campaign which actually thats what saved me. The sba money helps, sure. And i got a little bit of ppp, but i mean, i feel like giving ppp back because how am i supposed to pay that back . Its over two years, it puts a burden on me more than its helping me. So, and look, i dont want to be complaining, i hear your question. What it did right was once i did get approved, my loan was delivered very quickly. That was right, but im sorry, they got so much wrong, i dont really at this point im so frustrated, what they got right is kind of irrelevant. Thank you. Any others . Great. Chair lady thank you so much. Yield back the remainder of my ti time. The gentleman yields back and now we recognize the gentle lady from california for five minutes. You need to unmute. Thank you. Miss sexton, as a Congress Member representing Los Angeles County i thank you for sharing your experience as a los angeles business owner, and former professional. Its clear that its been unacceptable at a time when Small Business need this relief more than ever. I also imagine that many of your clients are also selfemployed individuals working in creative fields like the Music Industry and like you, the sole proprietor, selfemployed and contractors, they have been impacted by the sba caps on eidl emergency grant of 1,000 per employee. This cap is not reflective of congressional intent and hurts individuals like you to despite not having employees, have high overhead costs like thousands of square feet of leased property. So can you describe the impact that sbas cap on emergency grant has on sole proprietors and independent contractors like you and your clients and give us some sense of the unique burdens that these types of workers are facing during the covid19 crisis . And also, you described so many problems getting this sba loan . What is your idea of what needs to be changed in the program . Thank you congresswoman. Those are tricky questions in a little bit because there are so many. Out of my 120 members we got 60, 70 people who have their own businesses, right . So right away one of the things i did, because i had so much access to Small Business assistance because im so heavily involved in the chamber of commerce and working with, you know, a lot of different organizations, i was able to put a resource page together on my website to assist my membership and a lot of people were just frustrated. They would call me with the same frustrations i was having and then i would be calling my contact, especially from the lasb and who were fantastic by the way and telling me what was happening. Quite honestly, things changed so fast in the law or i mean, not in the law, in the application process, that even the industry even those organizations that were helping us try to understand what was happening, they couldnt keep up. So what happened was, when you would be getting an answer from somebody and already heard that it changed and then just be frustrated going, like, man, where are you . Why arent you keeping up with this . Why place this burden on me . My whole idea was if i can keep these people in their positions and keep them working and getting money, then i can keep my best, right . Because thats what i do. I provide a work space for them. The frustration falls in the lines of just general just general stuff. Lack of communication, not knowing what was happening. Some people werent smart enough to write down that loan number and wondering what and then theyd call people and the operators were misinformed, given bad direction to people on what next steps were. And then it falls on to, you know, look, it falls onto looking to other money and the ppp for me because i dont have employees is whatever, you know . I mean, you look at that and im super organized and i have everything ready and then i get nothing. And so i think the biggest thing, quite honestly, that the sba could do is just communicate. Be honest with people. I need to know what i have to do because and i believe the other gentleman, mr. Gerstein said that our bills are stacking up. Weve got rent to pay. I mean, i can extend and sure, i can put some payments, but that doesnt mean theyre going away, what am i supposed to do, you know . I really thought that eidl, i was hoping on that, if it wasnt for my gofundme, id have to shut completely. I appreciate the fact that you talked about the s bchbc in positive way, if the sba is answering back to the loan applicants, why dont we deputize the sbdcs that inform people on the status of the loan. I agree that would be an awesome idea. The gentle ladys time has expired. Now we recognize the gentleman from florida for five minutes. inaudible . Guest madam chairwoman, i dont see im on the call. You were just there. The gentle woman from pennsylvania, you are now recognized. Mr. Bishop from north carolina. Now youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, madam chairman. And i say i greet you today from our Committee Room and its wide open and empty and i certainly invite others to join me here whenever you can. And i think to whether whack in particular, its a bit of a disadvantage and i apologize to you for the difficulty, sir, that youve encountered. It may be, if this is the only way you could appear before the committee then that would be better than not being able to appear. I wish we could have had you come in and sit down and not struggle over things or things like that. I wanted to ask and pick who, seems to me in order for this enterprise to be productive we need to get beyond frustration to diagnosis and make an accurate diagnosis of the problem. The obvious import of the hearing is to lay blame at the sba. If dr. Gerstein is available, yeah, dr. Gerstein, i sympathize because ive heard it, many, many times and first earned what eid lchl was to do, youve heard of the notion of a putting out a fire with a garden hose. If you have a one nach hose to water through and youve got a burning fire and wouldnt make much progress. A lot of what the witnesses have and i find difficult to deal with as well. Isnt it inevitability of the nature of the problem that we have. This nationwood flat lining of the economy with shutdown orders over the entire economy. Itd be hard to scale off a Program Designed for the spotty tornado or hurricane to go to be able to operate nationwide . Im certainly not an expert in any regard. If you want to ask me about eyes im more than happy to answer any question about that. How to implement policy of congress, i cant explain what the best thing. But what i can tell you is the idea of the sba giving a little bit to everybody to try to quell the disaster is no different than coming into a room where a thousand people are dehydrated and offering them all just little sips of water and hoping youre going to save somebody. It didnt do enough to enough businesses. Yeah, i got that point and its a good point. And i just wonder if in the sense of your frustration that you experienced as you were going through this, was it did you either then or looking back at it now think that perhaps it was just an i am possibility to take sb. As eidl. Normal eidl program and suddenly scale it up so it could handle that sort of task . Part of the first come first served basis, i into you i knew there was going to be had a lot of demand. I knew there was going to be a lot of demand. I didnt know that the infrastructure and sba was going to be able to handle. Miss kerrigan and following the conversation that i had with dr. Gerstein because you made reference to sba sort of being able to scale up. You mentioned Artificial Intelligence. Is there some technical or technological solution that you believe exists that you could take a program like that, that it operated on basis i suggested, and suddenly and accurately and with efficiency scale it up to be able to handle a disaster like this and just expect the agency to be able to do that . Well, like i said, i think both in my my five minutes or earlier on and also in my written testimony that we knew this was going to be a huge lift for sba because wanted to we knew there was going to be a huge demand for this capital and number two, sort of the limited capital that was and i think, congressman that the reason why we did the ppp program was to alleviate, right, you know, alleviate and so that was sort of the sister program, like lets get the financial programs involved. You had two programs, one was restrictive, eight weeks to use this money as opposed to eidl which was six months. Let me interject. Ive just got 30 seconds left. I think your point is well taken, miss kerrigan and dr. Gerstein and i wish mr. Whack was on, easier if i could see him. The ppp program being able to bring in the private sector to leverage the government which made a relative success for ppp and that was not without frustration either. Exactly. And i can helpful to decipher what lessons we should be learning as opposed to just expressing frustration and levelling it all at the door of the sba. Madam chairman, my time expired. Thank you, mr. Bishop and let me just say i welcome you for using the Committee Room. And i also want to thank the cleaning crew who will now have to go into the room and it, and i want to recognize those that are able to join us for due cause, and ready to discussion without burdening small employers. So, with that, let me recognize mr. Evans for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair, as usual. When the pandemic hit businesses across the country, it was devastated financially, especially africanamericanowned businesses, which declined 41 from february to april, the most of any racial group. As a comparison, whiteowned businesses declined only 17 . Many of these Small Businesses have been struggling to make ends meet which is why the Small Businesses administration, Economic Disaster loans is such a lifeline. Unfortunately many of my constituents, including mr. Whack have been denied eidl loans because of unsatisfactory credit scores. Mr. Whack, ill ask you three questions based on my time. Mr. Whack, was your reaction when you received your deny letter from sba. Did sba provide you any further detail on your denial, such as minimum credit score required and cares act, congress indicated that sba may use that application credit score or alternative method to determine that has the ability to repay. Did sba indicate that any of your application used methods with the credit score, mr. What being . Can you hear me, congressman . Yes. Part of what i have been [inaudible] when i finally did, there was no there was no other reason other than the unsatisfactory credit report, nor was there any way in that letter i could have addressed that. How about if there was something in my Credit History i could have corrected or explained or whatever . It was just like something i thoroughly did not anticipate, as other than contacting the office i really had no alternatives. What was i supposed to do . So they didnt tell you in the cares act, congress indicated that sba may use an applicants credit score alternative, they never said that to you . I never heard that, that wasnt stated and i paid very close attention to the news, cnn, msnbc and other printed material and i was following this to see when i was going to apply that i had everything that i needed to do this properly and i was just unprepared for this, thats the best way to put it this. I had no notion they were going to use your credit score as a basis for accepting or denying an applicant a loan. Okay, so mr. Whack, can you explain all the costs you are now paying yourself, including unreimbursed benefits patients cannot afford their prescription . Its, as i said earlier, its particularly bad because a pharmacy is such a difficult field now in terms of the hmos, and in terms of you need an inventory, which means we go to a wholesaler. The wholesalers now are getting theyre ratcheting down. I go to a middle person to purchase prescription drugs, rite aid, cvs. They have their own warehouse, they go to medco or smith klein, whoever. They bypass this and its put me through stress. The wholesalers when you fall behind in this industry, they put you on cod . Can you imagine when uninvoice is 16, 18, 20,000. Thats stressful and i have no alternatives to deal with this. Im, the wholesalers who supply us with things we need to do our job is understanding, but it is a business, after all. Sba explain why you received a lesser amount . Absolutely not. No explanations were given. You are literally just put in aa position where you accept an amount and thats that. And yes, its a real problem. I yield back, madam chair. And i thank you for your leadership on Small Businesses and everything you have done. So wherever you want to meet, i will be there. Thank you. Let me again call on dr. Joyce from pennsylvania. Is he on . Okay, so now we recognize the gentleman from illinois, mr. Schneider. Thank you, madam chairwoman, and i want to thank the witnesses for sharing your perspectives and experiences. This is a very difficult time for anyone and for Small Businesses in particular as the witnesses have highlighted so well today. The anxiety try to keep your doors open trying to figure out how youre going to just make it through this and to overlay that, as you so eloquently shared, with the uncertainty, it was wonderful. As you have attested very well, yes bas Economic Injury disaster loan, the eidl program is a vital lifeline businesses in a crisis. It has been that in the past and it shouldve been this after the covid been to be. It only works if they get the money out the door. The program can be useful for businesses plan for longterm future in the midst of a crisis and its necessary and shouldve happened that we give these owners information they need and the status of the loan application, when they can get the money theyre counting on, and allow them to make the difficult decisions if money is not going to be available. More than a month ago i lead a letter with chairwoman velazquez joined by 100 members of the house to the sba outlining our concerns with the eidl program calling for the sba to create an application queue for new applicants and provide the current applicants an update on the loan status. Unfortunately these issues still remain unaddressed. Dr. Gerstein, i so appreciate you sharing your voice as a Small Business owner from our community in illinois and a glad Small Business webinars that i and my team organized help navigate the process and that our caseworkers could be a resource to you. But the detailed timeline you laid out, the long periods of information from the sba, was not unique and was incredibly frustrating. I felt badly for what you are facing, and as you and i talked about we saw it with so many other businesses around our district. I can imagine what it was like living to the site as a business owner. As you said and said very well, uncertainty kills businesses. Without updated information on low status, contrary to be a recess, the eidl program, the wait way it was administered became hindrance towards achieving longterm planning because Business Owners didnt know what they comply upon. If you would please, as you were working through the process you also navigating the world of uncertainty that comes from operating a Small Business during a pandemic. How did the lack of information hamper your ability to make a longterm plans for your business . It paralyzed us, quite frankly here i didnt know going through this process with the initial description was three weeks and then five to seven days that you would receive the income. After three weeks and then four weeks, we just didnt know what to do or which, if i knew to look for capital elsewhere or not, would that have been a a waste of time . And then i was behind the line of all the people who what that different avenue. It was quite paralyzing and i was really kind of mired with the sba and just at their beck and call to see what would happen. Mr. Whack, ms. Sexton, was your experience similar . Can you hear me . I can. Might experience was very similar and i would best characterize it as traumatic. I mean, ive been on pins and needles trying to keep things afloat, keep going and hoping that i would get an answer. When i got the answer, well, it was known, but it was just so vague and such a strain response. I just wasnt ready for this. And im sorry, i only have a minute left so ms. Sexton, briefly, you laid out beautifully in your written testimony about how much stress this was. Yeah, of course, of course. I mean, literally i had to close my largest location and thats going to take out twothirds of my income. Twothirds of a business that i created after four years of busting and making that happen. Dr. Gerstein, the other thg we talked about is this arbitrary cap at 150,000. How has dollars. How has that impacted your planning for the future . At this point now im looking at alternatives aspects for capital. I did send a letter with documentation to the sba. I am still to this day waiting to hear from them and see if im going to be granted more income, but now i have to look at Different Programs from banks and other aspects in order to try to just keep us going into we get back to normal. My time is expired. I would ask, madam chair, as we proceed in this one of the things we also have to explore is why did the sba think it was prudent to not disclose information about changing policies . Why did he not give an alert were running behind . The greatest frustration to me sitting at an airport is when they tell you why youre playing they dont tell you when your plane is delayed. Thats why its so important that we have them come before the committee, and we expect for them to comply with our request. I look forward to that. The time of the gentleman has expired. Now were going to recognize dr. Joyce from pennsylvania. I believe hes on the phone. Dr. Joyce . Will so now we will recognize the gentleman from new york, mr. Diazbalart for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Let me thank you for the great work, the lifesaving work you are doing as committee leader. When i testified he for the committee as a member of the committee, i said that Small Businesses were mad as hell. I was mad as hell. Im sorry to report to you, madam chair, that they still are mad as hell because the ppp program originally was a disaster. You did great work, madam chair, in carving out those 60 billion so that the money will go to cdfi, Credit Unions and local banks who have a longstanding relationship with Small Businesses. But we saw how the traditional banks favor their prestige customers, and some of them had to shamefully return the money back. So this 60 billion that you are allotted was very helpful. However, its not enough and, of course, now we see at this credit score business is being introduced. If you have a credit, if you can meet payroll, if you have liquidity and you have access capital, the bank comes to you. You dont need to go to the bank. You go to the bank when your credit is hurting, when you are striving, when youre hurting to make payroll, squeezing by, when you have no money to expand and you have very little collateral. Thats when you go to the bank. So if the bank is shedding you out then, then we are in trouble. Now, i know we are going need to do far more with a Small Businesses, madam chair, and in no heart is in the right place. I work with ship quality who is an internationally acclaimed chef based in d. C. But as originally from the bronx from webster avenue in the bronx, one is one of the most prestigious award for chef, a young guy come right under 30 years old. He has an independent group association. Restaurants which many cases defined the character and the reputation and the personality of a neighborhood, well go to a particular restaurant in harlem, east harlem, washington heights, in red hook, madam chair, your neighborhood, across the country because a defined those neighborhoods. They are hurting, and these businesses are marginal businesses that really work on a profit that stereotype to begin with. In fact, most of them just make their money at the bar. So i think we will have to allow a specific amount of money to restaurants so that we can save them. I think theres several businesses in areas of businesses where we are going to have to be laser focused to rescue. I think the independent Restaurant Association which has a great number of very good restaurants and that provide thousands of jobs to people from all over the country, were going to need to really help out and a lot some specific money to them so they will be able to most of them open, do it on the sidewalk outside cafes, streets will be converted to plazas. Know what is going to rush back to a crowded restaurant so the income is going to be limited and, unfortunately, unless we help them, as result we will lose hundreds of thousands of jobs. Some want to thank the chef, a young rising star. Hes right there at the wharf in washington, d. C. Keeping care. Hes like a guy thats leaving the movement for that business, and there are other businesses that i think face the same kind of challenges. So, madam chair, were going to go back to the drawing board and lead to better for Small Business. Thank you for your work, and i get back the remaining part of my time. The gentleman yields back. And with that were coming to an end for this hearing. I want to take this opportunity to thank all the members from participating in such an important oversight hearing. And i want to thank all our Witnesses Today for the testimony and for offering the main street view of the sba eidl program by sharing your experiences with us today we will be able to conduct more effective oversight and continue to optimize the eidl program. We have heard some rather troubling issues in your testimony and i assure you we will be following up with sba on each one. I ask unanimous consent that members have five legislative days to submit supporting materials for the record. Without objection, so ordered. If theres no for the business before the committee, we are adjourned. Thank you. New mexico governor talks about her states response to the pandemic today with the washington post. Watch live at 1 p. M. Eastern here on cspan2 and at two oclockish and we will be life with a hearing on oversight of ice detention facilities during the coronavirus pandemic. A House Homeland Security subcommittee will be in quite big you can watch online the cspan. Org or listen live on the free cspan radio app. Tonight on the communicators democratic congressman mike doyle also chair of the communications and Technology Subcommittee talks about this information on social media and the effect of the coronavirus pandemic on telecommunications. When the people who run these platforms take a look at the country they have created, because they have changed the culture of this country and if you dont see the division that exist in our country right now, that is chiefly being done by social media. I mean, its just crazy how you can identify peoples political affiliation just based on certain actions raise everyday on the internet. Mike doyle tonight at eight eastern on the communicators on cspan2. Tonight a special edition of booktv starting at 8 30 p. M. Eastern. Enjoy booktv on cspan2. The Supreme Court ruled a large portion of land in eastern oklahoma remains Indian Country antiseptic to tribal and criminal jurisdiction rather than the state. Justice neil gorsuch wrote wrote the majority opinion. Chief justice john roberts, claris thompsons, Brett Kavanaugh and Justice Alito the center. Here is the oral argument. The honorable, chief justice and the associate justices of the Supreme Court of the United States. All persons having business before the honorable Supreme Court of the United States are admonished to give their attention for the court is now sitting. God save the United States and this honorable court. We will hear argument first