A little bit of a different take on it i noticed there had been a flurry of books on socialism. Thats no surprise because socialism has come into the american mainstream for the first time in the country theyve collapsed at the end of the 20th century suddenly they tried to take stock of its other unifying theme by and large is the idea that socialism has never worked certainly not for the lack of being tried was tried in the majority of the world. The largest countries in the world, russia, china, india so the issue is that socialism didnt work before and its not going to work now. The verdict of history kind of argument. But the problem is that a lot of young people dont know that history is a house and really ds them. The second part is we are trying a new form of socialism. Its not authoritarian socialism, its democratic socialism. It is scandinavia. Its right there you can see it and we have three types of socialism. Its not just about the racial grievances and gender grievances and transgender grievances. Getting straight what it is we are talking about when you write a book about socialism in what is it that they were talking about in the classic sense of the most early socialist and early concept it was a form of collective ownership in the of e means of production abolishing private property. That form of socialism isnt very common today at least in largescale so what is it that you mean when you say socialism and this conflict . It is not classic socialism. Its sort of evolved over the last century and a half they came along and proposed the socialism that essentially was the revolt of the working class and overthrow the capitalist class and take over the means of production and the whole community into the stay or anywhere in the world there had never been that kind. Way to socialism and nationalization. The government over the banks and airlines and controlled the farming industry so it meant state ownership in the major and critical industries. Now the left isnt interested in any of this per se. There had been an economic component in all of these ideas you can see that these are not embraced by the party that this is important as a cultural component. I write somewhere in the book it isnt a union guy demanding the high wages it is to the black lives matter and peaceful rallies and cement blocks at her political opponent. That isnt a character that they could have foreseen and it reflects the fact we are dealing with an interesting hybrid of cultural and economic issues. A lot today care more about abortion than the minimum wage. They care more about the her bathroom then the universal basic income. The cultural component. Host at one point you talk about hardcore socialist fossae socialists and socialist light. What did you mean by these three term hopefuls into those categories . Guest Bernie Sanders is an explosive socialist who found a comic element. Now this is a bit too much i dont believe you can get sold in the United States. So they opted for socialism. Biden for example opposed free college but now hes for it because the pool in the Democratic Party is towards the left and a good way to think about socialism now isnt so much of a defined thing but which democrat is pulling in tha freemarket directiothefreemarh democrat is pulling the socialist direction and the answer is its just a matter of whether they are pulling hard or softly so i think the democrats decided lets go with more marketable than bernice socialism so thats why they picked joe biden over bernie. Host i think that you are right to talk about this as being a spectrum. With the means of production there are various degrees of the socialism present. The complete nationalization and then theres still overwhelming those like us that may be running in the opposite direction. One of them is singlepayer healthcare that fits into the traditional definition of socialism a little bit better. Guest yes, it does and of course there are welfare states in europe that have National Control of health care. You cant debate these things without being honest and knowing what you are talking about so when i listen to people like Elizabeth Warren talk about medicare for all our singlepayer healthcare they begin by using a rhetoric that is to be unpacked. They say things like we want to take Health Care Away from the companies and turn it over to the people. We want peopl the people to be n control of their health care and the way their health care is administered so then i asked the obvious question what role will the people have in any of this. Lets look at other government institutions, the post office. What control do you or i have been running the post office . None. What control do we have been running the dmv, none. What control does the ordinary british guy have over the National Health service, none. So the people are not going to be actually running anything. Elizabeth warren is. Right away we realize it offered something to the socialist class that is proposing it. Its not just the pharmaceutical politicians who themselves have a great deal of power to gain and cover that is convertible into money. That is a very important component. If people are able to parlay their positions ultimately into vast amounts of cash, it happens with the biden, clinton, al gore. How do people go from zero to 100 billion on the government salary, alternately by cashing in on their public position. So that is the first point i want to make is that the people are not in charge in fact. The question is who is going to run healthcare, the industry including the Insurance Industry or the Political Class and that makes it a little bit more of the actual choice. Host this is true of socialist revolution is everywhere done in the name of the people that the index benefiting or some more equal to others. One thing as a part of this Economic Policy you say is treating everybody more equally but the universal basic income we will guarantee income to all americans as a part of this sori can be the impression of one. How do you respond to the different models of baath guest this is where we have seen the preview where weve had a form of universal basic income. They almost want to say to the American People youve been sitting on your couch for months. How would you like to keep on doing it. Why would you want to put on an outfit and shave and go to work a bunch of times and listen to your employer raise and rant. What if we give you a thousand or 2,000 among them essentially make you a permanent slug. I have to admit there is a little bit in human nature that says that sounds fantastic because who wants to get off the couch. Thats how it feels to all of us and ultimately i think it points to the type of socialism by the way the democrats are selling. Marx would have been disgusted by this. He admired the worker who was sweating and putting in the long day. The point that you are putting so much of the load on the sky and some point his back is going to break and he will have enough so they unite as freeloaders of the world. Democrats today prefer we dont work. They made a video where they said we are not going back to work. Dont keep telling us to go back to work we are going to try to make this a temporary condition permanent. Another way to put it is the same shortages and limits on purchases and things im familiar with so we have a temporary case of what it would feel like and we shouldnt also forget the attack on civil liberties. That is the key part is not just economic its also no religious liberties, no freedom of assembly, no freedom of speech. Host its funny paying people not to work you dont get production and weve seen some of that in these recent months. Another one to bring up an just doesnt fit with the traditional marxist view would free college, i dont see that as the oppressed class but free college for everybody or forgiveness of student debt as a part of the package. Guest i was watching 60 minutes and so this fellow studying to be a doctor and says i would be such a better doctor if i didnt have to worry about paying for medical school. It would be so great is his education was free i could put all of my attention and being outstanding doctor and heres leslie kind of nodding and im waiting for the key question which is a if you want other people to pay for your education once you become a doctor, are you willing to work for free and the answer is obviously not. He wants the bmw lifestyle and pool in the backyard, the big house and so on so heres my point he wants the privileges and perks but once some other person to pay for his education. The shamelessness i think its a little shocking and i dont think that marx would have any sympathy for this guy. He would consider him a part of the class to be thrown on his back when the working class became angry. The problem today they are less likely to be found at a union revolt began at a trump rally. Host the working class rather than becoming wildly prosperous over the last 150 years. One of the new policies that is being proposed on the face of environmentalism that has a lot of components to so why is it a new deal . Guest if you look at the Green New Deal and member of the remedies have nothing to do with Climate Change and many of the politicians pushing the Green New Deal neither know nor care whether the arctic is getting hotter or colder. The experience is the same as when they were kids so this is ultimately a pretext as a ruse. Why the need for a ruse at all. You touched on a moment ago when news of the working classes and going to deliver what the socialists want. An economist about 100 years ago raised the question why has socialism not become mainstream in america and all socialist utopias have come to greece on roast beef enddoublequote in other words the working guy wants to join the capitalist class officer of violently fling it to the ground. The leftists figured this out and realized we need to sort of pick it. We need new ways to get the socialism without the kind of revolt that is never going to happen so now the politics of fear. Fdr learned in the new deal fear is a way to getting stoned you couldnt do otherwise. So i would say since the 70s when i first came to america i have been hearing this. Had been hearing this. The world was running out of food. In the 80s it was a Nuclear Apocalypse and in the 90s that was dissipating. The glaciers are melting and then coronavirus. In every case the idea is to create panic and try to get people in a crowd mentality to do with it what to do if they thought about it and act in a calm and deliberate manner. That is now the strategy of the left and the organs of Climate Change. Host you also identified this period as kind of how america began its tradition of. Could you elaborate on that . Guest one of them fdr favored 100 tax rate. He thought if you made over a certain amount of money that the government should take everything and at one point he had even said why should any american makeover 25,000 a year and he didnt mean 25,000 in our purchasing power but it was revealing he wanted a limit. The other thing fdr did is introduce the politics of demonizing the rich which has been very critical to the politics of the american left not just the socialists but the Democratic Party in general. Its worth noting because its not necessarily a characteristic of the socialist country. Look at scandinavia. You will never see people demonizing the guy running no kika. We will make him pay. All of this is absent from the scandinavian specialisms when thesocialism so whenthey say wee scandinavian model, no, youre actually following the fdr model and a model that the politics dividing society in many different ways. We are kind of all in this together to be contrasted with what can be called division socialism which is absolutely critical in the politics of today. Look at the racial divide. They literally seized upon it because it is part of the socialist strategy. Host i found it surprising when i was researching i wrote a book called socialism [inaudible] while we traveled the world we finish by going to the social prophets of the United States and the there is basically nobody in our age range. They were in their 70s now or 35 and under, mostly 35 and under. I went there to understand what do they mean by socialism and what are they talking about. I heard from some hardcore [inaudible] but the blacklights immigration issues, Climate Change issues, gender issues, going across the spectrum of Different Things none of them traditional socialism. Abortion is a big one. I dont remember seeing that in marks anywhere. I was a little bit surprised by that and we did have some differences pointed out that there solutions seem wrong. You called the site into the socialism would you like to elaborate what is going on with some of those . Guest identified and try to guide the nose if you will this new type of socialism which is a marriage of classic socialism and identity politics. So think of classic socialism eventually as a strategy of marxist division between the rich and the poor loosely speaking. For the modern american socialist life divided society is that its not just that. Its also black against white, it is a gender divide male against female, it is a Sexual Orientation divide and also in immigration divide legal against the illegal so when we say he was trying to carve a society the left is trying to slice the society in many different across many different lines. Why are they doing this . Because they think if we divide society into use differen and e, we can assemble a Majority Coalition that can come together and take on everybody else so they try to get the 51 and the belief that democracy is helpful than legitimize them oppressing the other 49 . This is what they called the socialism and to me it is a form of gangsterism because it isnt a whole lot different if i was a kid going to school with ten marbles in my pocket whether one guy jumps me and seizes my marbles ordering with a group of ten and the other nine jumpy in the majority and take them either way i am being robbed. Host what do you think it is about the banner socialism that gets the various individual issues that dont necessarily stick together what is it about the banner of socialis banner os them altogether . Guest i think they are unified by a hatred of capitalism but more broadly what can be called the infrastructure of the western societ western ss made capitalisms moorish so in other words they dont just hate the market or Insurance Companies but they also hate the families and the idea of a judeochristian structure of morality. They hate the idea of the churches which are a vehicle for people to express their freedom of conscience. I think if the left had their way to target with the family, property and church. This isnt unique to me they settle socialist target these institutions and if they do it right away. Host that was certainly true in the former soviet union as well wasnt that . Guest it was and its striking to me even though we have advocates how greatly they become tyrannical and say you cant go over here we are going to have to drones monitoring the movement and how quickly we are shutting them down. No one is denying that there is a virus but the truth of the matter is theres also a First Amendment and nothing in the constitution that says unless there is a disease or Health Authorities say otherwise but the truth of it is they are not up for a democratic referendum. It doesnt matter if the majority opposes them i still have the right to say what i think and have freedom of conscious. The idea that even without debate even if there was some agony you say on the balance we still think, know you have the governor of new jersey he wasnt even thinking of the constitution. It didnt even cross his mind. Host lets explore this for a moment because the book was entirely written before the corona virus pandemic. What you are seeing now in the United States and around the world in terms of crackdowns [inaudible] guest i have to say that the book has been vindicated and painted a chilling way not only by coronavirus but the aftermath of the George Floyd Killing. If i could socialism in america and defunding the police basically disbanding the police force i think i would have considered that an extreme thing to say and people would say you are a little crazy. What happened here and i will pay that if i made a little bit to the right and the mayhem we are seeing an attempt to enforce a social conformity that goes to anything foreseen in orwell. Even white people kissing the feet of blacklight activists, defacing of statutes not only confederate statues but those of columbus, church of england, abraham lincoln, the unknown soldier. It shows what is going on. Not only about george floyd. There is a specific and justice and truth of it is that there was a unified outrage from the left and righ the right concludd when the video first surfaced. It was an opportunity for the National Unity before the identity socialistic cant work like that. They need racism so they took the George Floyd Killing and put on top of it a much larger narrative and the larger narrative isnt what you would think would be the normal narrative which would be that costs extra try to make good costs a that their view is lets have no costs because the cops are racists and the institution is racist and thats no surprise because the Free Market Society is allied with White Supremacy and it is racist and its been that way since 1619 so youve got this remarkable narrative and its account of the George Floyd Killing because if you disagree with the narrative you are then accused of being insensitive to george floyd said this is the strategy of the socialists. They force you to embrace the larger narrative even though you are more than willing to go along with them on the original injustice you just are not on the other stuff that has nothing to do with. Host i want to see if i can fit this into the theme of socialism and the related a little bit and a different narrative similarly recognizing the injustice that occurred but also freemarket capitalism tends to minimize racism because of the people who discriminate the consequences of it. But protesting is one that is largely government run throughout the entire country might be an opportunity for the freemarket capitalists to talk about how privatization and could better address the issues that are legitimately of concern to people . Guest there is an opportunity there. Ive been struck in my lifetime to see the Services Even i took for granted in the government monopolies, the post office is now found competitors, ups, federal express. Prison services are sometimes conjure it privately. So much of the defense servicess are sent out to private corporations so theres all kinds of opportunities. By and larg large things alwayss done in the private sector. I think it is almost a wall of the universe. The post office wouldnt have figured out mail to be delivered overnight to this day. Only when fedex figured it out they thought we can do this to. This is the level of innovation you get from the government. On the other hand i would say the reason we have a government and social contract is that we need protection. We need to be protected from foreign and domestic and those e favorite leviathan, the larger state and even if the states do not do that if it doesnt give you the protection that you came into the society within expectation of, basically all bets are off. You will no more allegiance to the state and have every right to overthrow the state and company to pay your taxes. Yoyoure basicallyyou are basice status of my want to emphasize the radicalism of what the left is putting out here. The funding the police means to solve the social compact. Host the street to bring this back to the book now for the show. Thinking about the identity politics and the device of this my favorite chapter in the book was a born swede and mike venezuela and despite the scandinavian model o basic and denmark and sweden and norway are the nex next faces and thats what i mean. By the way until i read your book i didnt know that he never visited there. Very telling. But people bring up, and ive done this before in my own writing these countries are not very social. They have big welfare states and high taxes for lots of people and as an economist i think there are problems with that and that is why the growth isnt as much as it could be that that isnt socialist. You also have different point whether it is or not its basically not attainable in the United States. Why not ask guest american socialism is based on a simple idea outlined by George Bernard shaw century ago any government that robs peter to pay paul can count on polls for so the left in the country tried to say to people listen, we can offer you this and that and the good news is that its truly free. It isnt truly free because you need colleges and professors, technologies, professors are not free, but what they mean is the good news for you is we will make somebody else pay. That is the key to american socialism and it would collapse without it. If you told Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren stop demonizing the rich and promising somebody else will pay they would be rendered mute. Scandinavians to do this, they are capitalists and wealth creation. Most have no minimum wage. You can hire and fire people for any reason with one exception they dont have a wealth tax cut is no inheritance tax. The kind of Financial TransactionsElizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders has proposed for wall street is no country that does this. Finland tried universal income but they declared it doesnt work so thats the actual scandinavian model. And they dont demonize the rich. So the left doesnt want that. This is the key to what they do. The second point they have high taxes but distribute them evenly across the board. Even the middle class pays the taxes they make 75,000 sweden you will pay close to 50 tax rate so its not that the millionaires and billionaires will pay, but its the whole society. And that falls disproportionately on the poor so this idea of distributing the load because everybody wants benefits that he has to pay what they dont use the vocabulary because they know it isnt free. Who is paying, they are. We could adopt that model but that isnt the model for the left even once. The key to their strategy and this is the political element, we have to offer people something for which they dont have to pay so we can trade back something for their vote. The scandinavians do not do that. Host you end up jokingly called it spent socialism. We are all in this together as a group and you make the argument you could even pull off that pitch in these United States. Why not ask guest essentially it is bitter medicine. You could go to the American People and say the government will now provide you certain key services. Free school and college. You would have your retirement provided for and never have to pay for another Child Health Care help in your life that we ask the entire society take your paycheck, cut it in half half to the u. S. Government that would be the true scandinavian model. So if you make 50,000, write a check for 25,000 send it in and that is what they do. Most americans would be like im not going to do that, thats ridiculous and the left knows that thats why even Bernie Sanders in a strange way in his early career denouncing millionaires and billionaires then he became a millionaire so now he only denounces billionaires so the team to american socialism ultimately is robbing peter to pay paul. The other thing i want to point out, my wife is from venezuela. All the things we see in american socialism you can see in venezuela. It is identity socialism. Hugo chavez, the former dictator was indigenous and introduced the politics of race division. Basically it was the indigenous and blacks against whites. Venezuela has a sort of militarized and, allies of the socialist racing. They go on motorcycles carrying sticks and cement blocks to and they are the answer spaghetti this is a similarity between venezuela and the United States. The scandinavian version they dont have one because there is no such thing. So they say we are following socialism and trying to be like norway but in reality they are following the model and that isnt a novel that ends very well. They make it slows down Economic Growth but still doesnt kill the goose that lays the golden mac because it stretches out across everybody doing it together so one question im interested in that you didnt address directly in the book why the model isnt solvable in the United States comes the kind of advice to the comment of socialism is it a pretty homogenous society thats more like just helping each other out instead of subsidizing them or vice versa. I wonder what role immigration has played in the United States because they mentioned you didnt say much about legal migration which of course much of our history essentially all. What was making it impossible in america because they go bac if o the writings he complained of socialism wasnt advancing as quickly in the United States as it was in europe precisely because it undermines the workers. What role do you think that has played . Guest i see the history of america through those eyes. One of the striking things to me they were never addressed in the progressive curriculum. It was focused on things like how did america extend its prosperity and its regime of legal rights to previously excluded groups had my question was how did america become prosperous in the first place. How do they make this available to the common man. This is a little bit of the guide points out they push these questions under the rug. The left is very focused now on illegal immigration and for a while that puzzled me because i said to myself why. If this is ultimately a vote what are you trying to appeal to. They contemplate the objective of which is to portray not just being against illegal but against mexicans or immigrants generally so the idea is to try to ferment a kind of immigrant rebellion against trump and the Republican Party by e. Racing the importance line between unlawful entry into the United States and the unlawful entry. Host i dont want to go too far from the buck but a question might be a good defense against the state for the free market to support come out and say we need to expand thes some illegal immigration isnt as much of a problem and its just kind of part of the free market. Yes but we can and should take a large number and i also think that the immigration system is broken in the unification provision im the only member of my family that over the past 30 years i could probably have brought 50 or 60 of my family members to a kind of process. This wasnt the intention of the law at all. I would love to see america specify we want hardworking industrious people who believe in the american dream. I think it would be uncontroversial. Of course the democrats would be horrified because they would be very likely to vote republican. Host this goes back to socialism is often precisely the kind of people fleeing the country area i can think of no more antisocialist voting bloc and cuban immigrants of florida. I want to bring this back to whats going on with the ideals and a lot of people dont know that history. I know that you are more familiar with it through your own personal relationship, but it was once a rich country, s. , democrat and now we have a basket case here today that the west doesnt devote any more when they say they want socialism, but it really is a telling story if you cancel us what has happened there. Host it is so poignant and sad. My wifes experience has been kind of the opposite. I grew up in a company that was thoroughly socialist. India now is much better. I go back to the buildings into people that used to go to the sea to wash their clothes in the washing machines and the thriving middle class my wife grew up in venezuela in the 70s and was so fantastic the way she came to america at the age of ten she sold she moved to a third world country and fought it was still revealing to see a country that is multiracial, prosperous before rushing democratic rival party is a bit of corruption but to see that break down into a kind of third world barbarism, to see the oil industry that once flourished because they fired and replaced them with Bernie Sanders types they put up long lists of supplies. Send us this and that. They are on a freemarket society. The bottom line is theyve been destroyed and we could go the way of venezuela and we are determined to put our hands to the wheel to make sure that doesnt happen. Host there was the confiscation of businesses. They were trying to come to socialism by just going after the wealthy and as a result there is no wealthy. Guest there was a show called hello mr. President. Hes walking down the streets in venezuela talking to an aide. They said hes an opponent of our regime expropriated. I think that when a guy like bill sees them running with a bunch of shoes is hard to condemn too much because hes a younger version of himself but i think also second because they want to do it in a systematic way. So they were just grabbing a bunch of shoes and running out but he has 80 of the marginal top rate so that ultimately from the businesses into the ground and confiscated resources legally and then ultimately offer them to other people again in exchange for their enzi and political purpose. Co. Performance. Host you said something describing chavez when you said its a political opponent, nationalize it. This is what is happening to democratic freedoms when people say they want but they dont seem to get the connection pointed out long ago its basically a large degree of Economic Freedom and it is hard to maintain the democratic freedom. Once you see the kind of thing is the likelihood and permissi permission, you lose your voice and people seem to forget that venezuela was a democratic socialism. Guest a profound point that i got come he doesnt see it this way but i will say it my way because often we hear so many people say today that is completely different. Property doesnt have the same kind of value that other things have. And i also want to reflect on our own experiences because i think that this is actually not true. The thing is that i owned that are in my possession that he will, everything from my clothing and eyeglasses to my books and so on, they are as much in an expansion of me as my thoughts and memories this encompasses for the larger wor world. Its not the same as violating my person. And this is the way that our blood sweat and tears have gone into building and acquiring are in fact part of who we are. A lot of the appeal of socialism arises out of the moral anxiety of capitalism and the marlins lady of capitalism is often presented by different types of libertarians that are always pointing out how capitalism works. It discloses information most effectively, capitalism is the best way to organize Human Behavior and a fair point is that it is immoral and unjust and i think that the core of the argument isnt even the argument of any quality. It is capitalism, undemocratic. It doesnt allocate rewards but this is the argument i really try to take by the horn. I want to make the point that while they always say we need to extend democracy from the political sphere into the economic, that is the argument. It is authorized by the moral legitimacy of democracy itself. But its more democratic now than the political system because think about it, the political system we vote every two or four years. We vote in a Representative Democracy to make decisions on our behalf. But in the marke a market as coe vote all the time. Every single day many times that day. We vote with our hardearned dollars and this is a form of participatory democracy. We are all actually giving up something important to us that represents ourepresent our own s at the cost of nothing a lot of people stay home or if it is raining they stay home so the point im trying to make is we dont have to extend democracy from the political to the economics. Because we already have it. Capitalism is far more reflective of out there will and the popular consent in the democratic socialism. Some people i might complain you refer to them as hardearned dollars but they might say those are on justly earned dollars. I think personally what they are missing is the generation process that comes through cooperative in to serve how you make profits. It is the alliance between the state and the business. The dearborn a billion dollars and you take a billion dollars. I want to explore that for just a minute because it seems to me it is not entrepreneurs that have created this. We have. Why . Because you have these entrepreneurs traditionally we think of them as responding to demand. They have tif they cant supply. They have a builtin gps and does this and that, he envisioned it and build it and marketed it before we knew we couldnt live without it. So, the enormous rewards that have occurred as a result is the kind that they have done something that when we think it is almost impossible, they anticipated our wants and needs even before we knew we wanted those things. Those are the most genius entrepreneurs. Its not just that they aim at a target and hit but they aim at a target the rest of us cannot even see. Its also everyday mundane innovation. I would like to ask you, the average american watching this interview is sitting here nodding his head with you, if concerned about socialism spreading to the United States i could think of at least one or two and what they want t do youo throw in as what they should go out and do . Guest they could share my movie coming out. Its sort of lays out the intellectual spine. Its more of an emotional narrative journey but telling ultimately the same story but in a different way and reaching a wider audience. I think most importantly, we have to understand socialism so we can effectively answer it. A lot of people by the way work tedited by it. Its not that they are done. Part of it is the heavy propaganda profession. This is a whole other story that we havent gotten into. A there was debate over the type of issues that the reagan revolution was all about. When i se i say things they loot me as if i just slapped them because theyve never heard them before. No one on the campus ever said that to them before so we have ultimately i think unfortunately a little bit of a brainwashed clash of young people and we find other ways to reach them. They at least know that they can subject their prejudices as a question. What are the injustices that say lets think about how this might solve this better than the state socialism. Guest i couldnt agree more. For a lot of young people when they look at these escalating college costs, they blame the free market system. They dont realize that the vast presence in the whole panoply for education have encouraged the universities. In other words by not dealing with the free market, i sometimes use the analogy where if youre at the Grocery Store and people say you have a right to food, help yourself to whatever you want. People wouldve been instead of taking two cartons of milk they would take 30. What we dont realize is that you shall do to counter it is going to occur to those on the other side of the counter hey, he isnt paying for his groceries, why should we charge 2. 40 per carton of milk, why not 30. In other words what is happening is a ripoff scheme is now emerging. A scheme in which i and the Grocery Store or complicit involving a third guy that has no say in the debate. The democrats in the political strategy is based on that. Its based on looting the invisible third man that isnt present in the debate. Host i think it is no accident that things like healthcare or also on the list and free markets are most curtailed by the regulations. Thank you for joining us today. Really appreciate it. Great new book. Host guest thank you very much. This program is available as a podcast. Podcast. All after words programs can be viewed on the website, booktv. Org. The marylands republican governor wont release his memoir at the end of the month titled still standing. The governor is the current chair of the National Governors association and has been reported to be weighing a president ial run in 2024. Also in the news, according to the book scan, print sales rose 18 over the weekend and june 27. Adult nonfiction sales saw a 28 uptick led by former Trump AdministrationNational Security advisor memoir of his time in the trump white house. The book has sold nearly 800,000 copies. And as the coronavirus continues to affect the nation, several of the larger festivals decided to go virtual including the atlantic journalconstitutions festival, the library of Congress National book festival and the texas book festival. The pt will continue to bring programs and publishing news and you can also watch all of our programs anytime at booktv. Org