Good point. All right. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, david. Im mark tabson, see you at our next freedom certain webinar. Thank you. Booktv continues now on cspan2, television for serious readers. Ordinarily, we come to you live and in person, the mission of fostering stable feminist commitments, working for social justice and encourages the automobile all through these virtual formats. We find it really, really, really significant that we continue to do the programming that we already had scheduled because folks need history as we move through this historic time. Theres really no, i can think of no better book to help us focus on what the movement for black lives needs right now, what we who are white and want to contribute to black lives can do right now. And this man, race man, we have the editor here, michael and pam horowitz. And his widow, we hope, will be on soon. Shes having some technical difficulties. Settle in, make yourself at home. We will get to some question and answer in the chat, but please keep yourself on mute. You can turn your camera on if you like, you dont have to. But were just going to enjoy some time with michael and, hopefully, get pam on the line as well. Please welcome michael long, editor of multiple books and one of my favorites, a really important collective work of [inaudible] so i want to just go ahead and bring you in, michael. Is so if folks will switch their view from gallery view to speaker view when michael starts talking, he will be on speaker view, and he will take the up the screen. Please welcome michael long. Thank you. Its good to be with all of you. Can you all hear me okay . Am i coming through enough . Yeah, you sound great. Okay, great. I scheduled the format to be with pam in dialogue, so since shes not here [inaudible] suggestions that i begin with a bit of a reading but we can adjust and move along as organically as we possibly can. You suggested i begin with a bit of a reading from [inaudible] in atlanta. By the way, i lived in atlanta for several years. Im graduate of emory university, and i love the city. I didnt know bond while i was there. Hey, i see pam has joined us. Has she. Pam is here. Pam, its good to you. [laughter] yes. How do we we do this . Is this a split screen or is the person talking the one who appears on the careen . The person whos speaking appears on the screen, so you will just if everybody turns their camera on speaker view as opposed to gallery view, you will speak automatically between speaks which is the most fluid way to do it. Okay, great. Everybody got that . Okay, super. Pam, welcome. Its good to have you with us. Thank you. I thought we would begin by talking about the george floyd protest. It seems timely, to say the least. And ive been thinking a lot about julian bond and Bayard Rustin and dr. King during this period, and i thought i would begin perhaps with a reading from julian bonds essay from, oh, my goodness, this must be the early 1970s, though i dont have the date right in front of me. But its about violence. And bond is talking about whos violent in america and whos not. So let me read this and maybe we can go to the protest from here. What page are you on, just so i can 56 in the book. Were at race man, everybody. Julian bond selected works. And ill be reading from pages 5657. Pam, im right at the end of page 56. Okay. We need to discover who is and who isnt violent in america. Violence is black children going to school for 12 years and receiving 5 years of education. Violence is 30 million hungry stomachs in the [inaudible] nation on earth. Violence having black people represent a disproportionate share of [inaudible] in vietnam. Violence is a country where counts more than people. Violence an economy that and i love this phrase socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. Violence is spending [inaudible] violence is spending 78 billion to kill and another 12 billion to make coal. Violence is 6,000 American Farmers receiving [inaudible] not to work. Violence is Richard Nixon and spiro ago knew ignoring the expression of [inaudible] and the list goes on. What bond is doing here is trying to expand our understanding of the meaning of violence is so that we dont restrict it to things like violent, so we dont restrict it to physical force, so that we have an expansive view of violence and see it in very broad term. Its interesting that you started with that because obviously when you put this book together, you could not are known what was going to, what we were all going to be facing now. And even this event was put together, we didnt know what we would be facing now. And so for me, the, you know, the book is more resonant than ever, although, you know, since White Supremacy and racial discrimination, its in our countrys dn ark, its not surprising that many things julian said many years ago resonate today. But when you said, you know, a broad definition of nonviolence, i, i went to page 230 which is, which is saying we must be careful not to define the ideology and practice of white strep city too a narrowly. It is better than scrawled graffiti e and individual indignity such as the policemans night stick or the job, home and education denied. It is rooted deeply in the logic of our market system and the culturally defined and politically enforced crisis paid for different units of prices paid for different units of labor. And then, you know, theres also in one of the last speeches that he gave he talks about, you know, we practiced dissent then and we must practice dissent now. A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death. He ends with a reporting on the present chi sis which is one of, was a favorite of his and is with one of my favorites. But, you know, all of that is just today. So historians dont hike to answer questions like this, pam, but when you think about julian and when you think about the George Floyd Protests going on now, how do you think he would have this trajectory of thought . Oh, i think he would be delighted. I mean, you know, he would have been upset at the violence and lawlessness, as we all were, because with it detracted from the message of the protests. But he was, you know, black lives matter mattered while he was still alive. He was very admiring of that movement. He saw himself and sncc in black lives matter, so he would see himself and sncc in this. And i think he would think that its, we are in a moment. And parking lot hi, i mean partly, i mean, i its a trifecta because, you know, we had the pandemic, then we had police killing, and we have a president whos making everything worse. And so, you know, here we are. But for all of that, i think its uniting to allow, you know, a moment when there might really be some significant change. You know, i was going back through his writings about violence and riots, and it seems to me that he wasnt opposed to violence on so much principle grounds. He clearly believed that violence was problematic because he believed in the inherent dignity and worth of everyone. But when he talked about riots, it was usually about the trouble [inaudible] nature of Police Officer r Police Officers invading Police Officers invading [inaudible] but we do agree that, we do agree that he wasnt opposed to violence so much on principle as pragmatic grounds. Does that make sense to you . Julian . Yeah. Yeah. I think, i think there were two views of violence in, at least two in sncc, and one was that, you know, it was a tactic, and for some it was a tactic and for others it was a philosophy of life. And for julian it was definitely the former and not the latter. And he supported, you know, the people who weren gaminged in selfdefense were engaged in selfdefense back then. There was a case involving the naacp leader in North Carolina who was thrown out of the naacp, and julian always opposed that. And now we know, i mean, i think they had some inkling at the time, but now we know how many people really were armed during the Civil Rights Movement of the 60. And charlie cobb wrote a book, this nonviolent thing get you killed. And julian had a couple of experiences during the movement with, you know, people who had everybody had guns. Hardly it was, you know with, it was the south, and it was aing cultural thing, and it was a protective thing. And its, we used to talk about how amazing it was that there was never just a full scale shootout somewhere and that they were able to maintain a nonviolent movement. And the strength it took to do that. This, it didnt make them wusses, it made them incredibly courageous. Yeah. I dont want to veer too much into Bayard Rustin, but hes a favorite of mine, and i know he was a favorite of julians as well. But in montgomery in 1956, dr. Kinged had armed bodyguards around him, dr. King had guns in his home. So dr. King wasnt initially a pacifist. Its really interesting to me. I was wondering whether julian ever confessed to having carried a gun. No. No. No, he i know he never did. And, in fact, it was very exciting because whats the name of the black panther guy from the west coast . He came to visit atlanta, and julian was supposed to drive him around. And so he decided that he should have a gun because he would expect, the black panther would expect julian to have a gun. So somehow i dont know if his brother james found the gun, but somewhere there was a gun, and it was like this rusted thing that had probably [laughter] never been shot or at least not for years. But they put that on, you know, like the dash of the car to impress [laughter] this black panther. Julian never touched a gun. Okay. You know whats interesting to me is that when he was just beginning in sncc, he described himself as a pacifist. And he actually traced some of that to his roots at the George School, a school here in pennsylvania. By the way, everybody, im coming from pennsylvania, and pam is coming if North Washington d. C. [inaudible] is with us, from san francisco, i believe. And thanks to stacy e from city lights books for being with us and for helping to arrange this. Glp yes. So he initially described himself as a pacifist, which i found really [inaudible] i think, i think it was because he was opposed to the war in vietnam, and that was the war that was happening then. And i think as time went on, he realized that he probably didnt really qualify as a pacifist in the proper essence of the term. Right. No, when he went, when he was called before the draft board and they called his name and the draft board person said i know all about you, youre one of those sitdowners right. And then he said youll never get in this mans army. [laughter] of course, that was great. He acted as if that was some sort of punishment. Right. And then, but they made him, it was not it was they classified him as mentally unfit oh, okay. Morally up unfit. Wow. So he didnt serve in the military at all, and throughout the rest of his life would [inaudible] who i usually supported and led draft dodgers like george w. Bush. So maybe we could go back to the beginning. Well, let me stay where we are right now, and then ill go back to the beginning. But had he continued [inaudible] what do you think his assessment would be right now of the trump era expect trump years . Well, i think he would be appalled. I mean, you know, trump the republican field had been formed and thered been at least one debate before julian died, and so we had watched that. And there were, as youll recall, many people, 17 or 18 or so when they started. And like most people, julian did not take trump seriously and did not think he was a serious option as the party nominee. And so he, from day one, he would have been, he would have been appalled. But, you know, when trump was first elected and lots of people said to me, or well, you know, what would julian think, what would julian say, and i said from the beginning that he would say dont agonize, organize. You know . He would have been geared toward making sure that he was a oneterm president. But i dont think, i dont think any of us well, i cant speak for him or even the rest of us, but i dont, i did not imagine that it could be this appalling. I didnt you know, every day, i mean, today to decide that the 75yearold in buffalo is, you know, anticop, provocateur, i mean, its like, you know, he outdoes himself on a daily basis. And julian if his standard speech that he was giving for the three or four years had a line about one party is spineless and the other party is shameless. And they still are. It was true then and its true now. So he would also be, i think, you know, quite disappointed in his own party. You know, he wrote this one piece that was in the early 70s, and he says that shouldnt be in the back pocket of either party. They should have independent politics, as he put it. Independent politics. And it would be a mistake for them to lose leverage by identifying with the Democratic Party so much or with the republican party. There wasnt a real option at that point. But i found it really interesting since he was democrat. Or when he initially ran for office, wasnt sure which party to register with. You know, his father was a republican. Right. Well, that was when, you know, there were not just decent republicans, but black republicans. Right. The party of lincoln. Right. But, you know, very early in julians career, i mean, with nixons strategy you saw where the party was going and how it wanted to get there. So there has really never been an option. Ideally, and julian spoke about this, you know, you would have both parties vying for the black vote. And then, you know, have more to show for it. But thats not been the case in, you know, in the last, what, thiess 50 years. At least 50 years. Youll have to forgive me, everybody, for wearing a hat. The one i chose was 42, jackie robinson, and like bond, he had this dream of what he called the twoparty system for blacks to [inaudible] for a particular party. To black folks could determine which candidate or party best advanced black interest, and thats sort of the dream or the notion that bond had. At least in the late 60s, early 70s before the southern strategy that pam was talking about. Pam, since you talked about the phrase dont agonize, organize [audio difficulty] i know he agonized over, that of course, and [inaudible] anniversary. And he sort of chewed out the during his speech that he gave there. And he said that the rage that was expressed following the shooting was good, but nobody transferred that or transitioned it or morphed it into an organization that had policy goals. And julian, it seems to me, was always about not only protests, but moving protests to politics. Can you comment on that . Well, you know, that was a big subject of debate among sncc people. And sncc discussed it endlessly as they discussed most things. And argued. And, you know, there was a lot of discussion and argument about whether julian should run for the legislature because that, you know, that was not seen by some as being coopted and turning his back on the movement and what can you accomplish in elective politics. And so a decision was made, obviously, that it was a good idea. And is sncc people ran his campaign, and they were pretty strategic about how they ran sncc and how they handled his campaign. And so the whole idea of running for office was that you were going to accomplish something and that you had, or you know, an agenda. And in julians case, his First Campaign was really what is still, they say, the most workable way to get votes, and that was to knock on peoples doors and introduce yourself and find out what the people were thinking, what the people wanted. And so that was his, thats what he did, and that was his initial platform. And i think thats how he approached, you know, politics and political office, you know, his whole political career. Yeah, its interesting, everybody. By the way, sncc is the student nonviolent coordinating committee, and well get into it more, but he would show up at peoples houses or people tagging along with him would have pieces of [audio difficulty] and then they would go into the backyard, and if everything worked out okay, thered be a cue, they would invite the neighbor, and bond would [inaudible] say whats wrong with politics and what would you like to see accomplished. Then he would take that and put it into his platform. So the platform was the neighborhood platform. Which is a beautiful way to run rather than present your platform to your neighborhood, you go meet your neighborhood and develop your platform from there. So lets go back to the beginning. I know you know some of the Family History well, but could you sketch some of the Family History and maybe tie it to the reasons why julian was a civil rights activist . Maybe you could talk us through a little bit of his Family History. Michael and pam, before you all tart talking, im going do you if youre in between talking and listening if you could mute your mic so when youre done speaking, just because were getting a lot of feedback on the line. Oh, okay, sure. Yeah. Pam, did you yet my question get i my question . Yeah, yeah. Julians family on both sides was educated, and is so education was seen as the way to a future, a way to help the race, to influence the race. His father his grandfather was actually a slave because he was born in 1863, and he, along the way he was born in kentucky. Thats where Maria College is. And at some point he learned about it, and julian always told the story about his grandfather whose name was james, the original james bond, took his tuition, a steer, and walked across kentucky to the college. And the college let him in. He could e not read or write. He was 16. So it took him many years to graduate. But when he did, he gave the valedictory address and went with on to get a theology degree. So i always used to say that if you didnt have a doctorate in the bond family, you were considered undereducated. So they were all, they were all educated on his fathers side. His father himself became, graduated from college when he was, like, 16. Got a doctorate at the university of chicago. Became a noted educator. Did research that is still considered Ground Breaking on education. He wrote his main book was called negro education in alabama. And then his mothers side was almost as educated, and she herself was a graduate of fisk who, at the age of 52, got a degree in Library Science and then worked as a librarian until she was 92. And debated whether or not she should retire then and decided that she would. So i, you know, it was a very distinguished family. When his father became president of Lincoln University and lincoln was known as the black princeton at the time, his father was the first black president because surely the white people who ran the cool didnt think that there were the school didnt think there were any blacks who were good enough to preside over it even though it was an all black student body. So you can imagine the politics of that. And dr. Bond was not a withering persona. And so i know that it was, there were difficulties. But everybody came. Everyone who was anyone, including Albert Einstein who, as you can imagine, was invited to speak on every College Campus in the United States and spoke at very few. But he wanted, he made a point of wanting to go and did go to speak at lincoln. So julian met him. Well, you know, he was a very small boy. But the family lore, julian always told about that was that Albert Einstein said to julian, dont memorize anything thats already written down. And it was something that julian lived by the whole, his whole life. So it was a fabulously enriching environment, and then they sent julian, the schools were segregated, and lincoln in lincoln, pennsylvania. So there were three kids, and they sent all of them to private school. Julian went to, as you mentioned, George School in newhall, pennsylvania, and that was a a Quaker School where he was the only well, there was one other black student who was a day student because he was the son of the cook at the school. To there were, he was, he spoke very fondly of George School always and had many friends, but there were, you know, that was not easy for him either. And this were things like they, the school told him not to wear anything that said George School when he went into town, because they didnt want the townspeople to know they had a black student. But it was, you know, it was a wonderful education for which julian was always grateful. And then, of course, he became a morehouse man, and you know what they say about them. You can always tell a morehouse man, but you cant tell em much. [laughter]. And got a job at atlanta university, and that coincided with his graduation from high school. The family moved and julian saw a school that he thought was moorhouse, which it think was spellman, but he thought it was wonderful looking campus and he wanted to go to school there. Thats how he got to moorhouse. And then of course he quit college when he was one semester short of graduation, so you can imagine how that was received in this family that highly valued education. But also his father im sure would consider himself a race man, so they were clearly supportive of the nascent Civil Rights Movement and there theye not going to tell julian he could be part of it but they were also im sure appalled. I remember reading julian had some concerns about going south. I think it went south in 1957 if if memory serves me correctly. Emmett till, 14yearold from chicago, lynched in mississippi and his mother decided to publicize the image of his lynched body and jet magazine and admin and other National Publications picked it up. Julian mustve seen the photo and read the stories. He expressed in trepidation about going south, and i remember he wrote Something Like if thats what they did to emmett till, what wont they do to me . He was concerned about going to the south but he seemed to find comfortable home at moorhouse. Im going to go to a passage in race man published by city lights just this year and which julian describes his First Encounter or movement into the Civil Rights Movement and pam, im on page two. It begins this way. These are his words they began for me as it did for many more, im on page three, about february 4, 1960 i was sitting in in a cafe near a College Campus in atlanta, a place where students with between classes. A student named lonnie approached me. He held up a copy of that days of night the daily world, the outlet the black newspaper. Greensboro student sitting for third day. A black College Students on North Carolina a t University Greensboro had for the third annual intera walrus Department Store and asked for service at the whites only lunch counter describe described their demeanor, the address in the determination to return the following day. As many days as it took them they were not sure. Lonnie said have you seen this . Yes, i have, i replied. What you think about it . I think its a great. Dont you think about to happen here, he asked . Im sure im sure it will happen here, i responded. Surely someone here will do it. Then to me as he can to others in those early days in 1960, a a query, and invitation, a command. Why dont we make it happen here . He and i and i and joe pierce n canvassed the cafe talking to students, inviting them to discuss the greensboro a bit and duplicated it and a letter to the embedded Student Movement had begun. Up to that point, atlanta didnt have a Student Movement, organized Student Movement of black students. This was 1960, five years after the montgomery bus boycott which is pretty telling especially in atlanta but julian was at the very beginning of the movement and he stayed with the movement until it collapsed, didnt collapse whole lot later on but pam, did julian talk a lot of rich about being involved in the Student Movement . Unmute yourself, pam. Im sorry. This is the downfall of having to mute and unmute. We cant hear you yet. There you go. Sorry. As the years went on and reunions were held, you know, then of course you reminisced about all those days including the immediate preceding days the sncc. And he talked about, and i dont know if you have it in the book but he talked about his arrest and that his first arrest was during the atlanta Student Movement when he was arrested at the cafe in city hall. He always told a very sunny story about that. But it wasnt, you know, and wasnt so funny at the time. I think the first arrest is always filled you with a bit of trepidation. But then the atlanta student, i mean sncc game really right after that. Came. It was easter weekend 1960. Can you talk about that . Can to talk about julians work at sncc, what he did and how he felt the movie to be . It was because of the atlantic Student Movement that he was invited to participate in the movement that ended up, that became the founding movement of sncc and that was at raleigh at shaw university, a woman named ella baker whom the people were in sncc universally revered. Julian always said he never called her ella. She was always mrs. Baker. She was older, or ms. Baker. She was older, she worked for dr. King but she was a real strategist and she understood and she gave a speech called more than a hamburger. She understood that the movement was more about, lot more than sitting at a lunch counter, and that it was very important that the students have their own organization and not become a part of then the likely organization within splc, dr. Kings organization. She was a bit subversive because she worked for dr. King but she made it clear to the students that they need their own. And that it needs to be bottomup, no topdown leadership. Sncc really i think bears the markings of elevator in its approach to everything. When theyve formed of themselves they were actually the student Nonviolent Community to me because nobody knew how this was going to play out, and julian became the Communications Director which met that his primary responsibility was to get the word out to the rest of the world what was happening in the rural areas of mississippi where sncc was, in the rural areas of alabama. So he was present at a number of events but his students thought no event had ever occurred that he was not asked, which was not true, especially because that really was not his job. It was often more important he be back in atlanta, that he be communicating with the press. And the press at the time, several of them were really quite, i mean, they were really allies and made a huge difference in terms of how information was gotten out and the way people reacted to that information. But like the day the birmingham, the church was bombed, julian was in atlanta. They got the call and they went. He was on the scene as i say for several events but his job was really in atlanta. He wrote he wrote all the press releases. He had a grass roots approach to getting word out about sncc israel which is interesting. He would send a reporter out in the field and they would identify with the local activists or an activist from another part of the country. Then they would write a story about this activist and send it to the home newspaper back home. This would spread the word nationally about sncc but you know locally focused way. Part of what i thought him a genius way to get word out about sncc but also support for sncc of the country. I think sncc attribute a lot of its success to bond getting to work. He described this up as an office function which i found absurd but he played a key role in the publicity role in terms of getting a lot of recognition for sncc and some of its success from 61 to 65, i believe. So at the end of 65, or in 65 he decides to run for office, for the statehouse. What happens after by the way, he gets elected by 82 of the vote in this district. Thats pretty high. But what have what happens after gets elected . After the election sncc issued a statement, well, there was a protest in tuskegee alabama and there was a sncc person named sam young to us on tuskegee and sammy had served in the navy he had lost the kidney. And because of his having only one kidney he had to go to the bathroom more often than most and he used a bathroom at a, a whites only bathroom at a gas station in tuskegee and the owner of the gas station shot them in the back in children. There was already antiwar sentiment bubbling within sncc. This is early, way before king gave a speech in new york. So the issued a statement which was pretty strong about how the, opposed to the war and our the United States government did not treat its black citizens well here and then expected them to die on the battlefield. So that was the excuse that his fellow legislators used to not, to vote not to see him. So there is this picture of julian sitting while everyone else is standing taking the oath. He was only 25 and he looked like he was 15, and its a very, very pathetic picture. There was a special election to fill his seat, and he won that. By the time he had sued and he actually lost the suit in the court of appeals. Griffin bell whom you might recall became attorney general under carter, voted, part of the three judges handle, a two to one vote not to seat him. And that his Constitutional Rights have not been violated nor the rights of his constituents. So went to the Supreme Court and then by this time there was a 30 election, so he won his seat a third time, and he always told a story about when they were in the Supreme Court his lawyer, a lawyer for the state of georgia was arguing at a think, i think it was white who said to them, now you have got you came all the way up here and thats all youve got . Julian said, he poked his lawyer and said were winning, right . And that was back when they had unanimous decisions in cases that mattered, so he won nine to nothing and, of course, that served to kind of may kim a household name and led led him to become a high school name. Poetry for everybody some of his thoughts about the day he was refused his seat in the house. Its a reflection on some of the time he had been there before. Ive been in the house to our three times before but on one occasion ive been with a group of students led by some of you will recognize this and, doctor howard zinn, would been asked expelled from the legislature. The man who is the speaker without, george smith was speaker then. One of the members rose on the floor and said to them, mr. Speaker, mr. Doorkeeper, he uses the inward, get them out of the white folks section. The speaker ordered the doorkeeper to put aside a section of the gallery, the second occasion happened after was one day when he went there with james forman informant is the one who brought julian into sncc. He was julians mentor. Lost and outside the door the chamber of white document and said the former, i dont know if this guy was belligerent but he said to from im the meanest man in Meriwether County and my daddy and me used to snatch them off the train until the period forman pulled back in those incidents really put the fear of god in me. I thought the number of the legislature and all of the hangers on who always hanging around the hall spitting on a floor, i thought these men, and i still think some of them are capable of murder and mayhem. I did know if i would be physically assaulted or what, but i was very glad i wasnt. Can you imagine running for office in in a place like that . Apparently he was isolated during his time in the house. He tried to put through a couple of bills. One was on sickle cell anemia and one was for an increase in wage, the hourly wages of workers, and a couple others i think about healthcare. It was difficult for bond to be in house and even later the senate where a lot of the legislature were white and control things. And many recollections of julian time in the house and the senate there in georgia . Well, i know his time in te house was particularly difficult for him, and his nemesis was a guy named, his last name was floyd and his name, his nickname was sloppy. And for every time julian served in the house ten years and every time he was sworn in, subsequently to a seat, sloppy floyd would make a point of leaving the room. And so that was the atmosphere in which he had to struggle. That was one of the reasons he ran for the senate and a think the senate, the senate as is often the case was better behaved body, and so he liked the senate better, 80 did feel a degree of collegiality which he, with some of his fellow even ones who didnt share his politics which were most of them, but he had a better experience in the senate. Generally, like his time in political office. So in 1986 he decides to run for office in the seat that he helped create. In 1969 his best friend at the time was john lewis, john lewis wrote him a letter encouraging julian, his best friend, to run for this congressional seat, this was back in 69. Bond doesnt run for Congress Intel 86. Im pretty sure i have that right. So his best friend, john lewis, and he and lewis went back to sncc. John lewis was ahead of sncc when julian was there working as Communications Director and they both left around the same time when the black Power Movement really came into power and sncc and sort of drove john lewis from power, and then with Stokely Carmichael in the lead they moved toward black nationalism and the use of force in selfdefense. There was a different way than bond and lewis were going, but they remained friends. In 1986 they find themselves running against each other for congress. It is a contested, hotly contested race and it leads to im one is to talk about that difficult, those difficulties . No. [laughing] thats fair. Julian actually ended up many years later being interviewed about it, and it was a very painful time. It was painful for all of their friends in atlanta. So i kind of, i prefer for julians words to speak about how, how it came about and what it meant to him. I will say that there is a new documentary about john which i think is called good trouble, or Something Like that, and there is a part of the documentary where it talks about john challenging julian to a drug test, and julian reacting by saying this is a ploy to dislike boats, which he got. Julian got a huge majority of lack votes which he always wanted people to know, and jon got white votes and that partly dated back to the expulsion from the legislature and white people who remember back in the time julie had committed treason and so they were not going to vote for him 20 years later for anything. So there was just a review of the movie in the washington post, and the director is quoted as saying that the experience made john seem more human because he had won the seat in a less than honorable way. So julian would approve of that verdict, but other than that, i dont have anything to add to what is in your book that julian says about himself about it all. For the people here let me just say thanks but i do refer you to the book as pandas. The book race man julian bond selected works, 19602015 thanks to city lights books. During the campaign, it turned personal especially during the runoff between john and julian. John also, criticisms came from elsewhere but john accused julie of the drug use. He accused him of being a slacker, lazy, legislature picky accuse him of being out of touch with the black masses which was julian won the black vote in the race and also accused julian of, not that you can but he just had julian with somebody who worked for him and julian at took offense at that because he that, rightly so, there were a lot of coequals in sncc. After the race julian moved to washington, d. C. Theres another organization that is pretty important in his life and that the Southern Poverty Law Center. Which i know youre really familiar with so could you talk about your work there and julian to work there, too . Sure. Julian was the first president of the Southern Poverty Law Center which was founded in 1971, and that was come because moores d deed was one of the cofounders ask him julian had never met him but he asked to meet with the julian, told him that he was setting up this organization. Morris had been in publishing, had sold his Publishing Company for a lot of money and was going to spend the rest of his very long career doing good. So julian liked what he heard and became the first president of the Southern Poverty Law Center which really meant he was never the center is located in montgomery. He was never in montgomery. He literally sign the fundraising letters which were very successful as most people are aware now as the center approaches its 50th year. I worked at the center, my first job, law job out of law school, and when there were three of us, three lawyers, the two cofounders and me. And now of course there are 150. Julian had an association which is, the rest of his life, he at some point step down as president and then he was on the board. This is a really progressive issue you said, lets just go through some of them. [inaudible] asked questions of it if you could monitor those that would be great. Maybe if we could just move to some issues. Like reproductive rights and lgbtq issues. Bond was a big proponent of reproductive rights for women. Could you talk a little bit about that, and your work . While, i think julian was proud of the fact that the Civil Rights Movement had influenced and assisted subsequent movements, the antiwar movement, certainly the womens movement, and so because reproductive rights were an important part of that, that was a natural thing for him to support, and gay rights. I think, i do remember a moment when julian suddenly said i think gay rights are important. It was just assumed. It was a continuum of different groups earning rights to which they were all entitled. I think some of the opposition in the black community to gayrights was religiously based. Julian was not, he was not churched, so that didnt get in his way about how we felt about gays. And i think my preface in your book, i write about julians admiration for Frederick Douglass and that Frederick Douglass had said he must strike the first blow. Julian i really think did that his whole life, whether it was the war in vietnam or gay rights. So he became one of the few National Black leaders to endorse gay rights generally and Marriage Equality specifically. So you were at the obergefell decision from remember correctly. I was. Yes, with him, with chad, the head of the Human Rights Campaign and obergefell, who his husband had died, you know, they been married. He was dying when they got married. By the time the case was argued but yes, yes, we were there. One of the things i always liked he wasnt willing to restrict Civil Rights Movement merely [inaudible] but he was willing to share that movement with the womens rights [inaudible] are you all still there . Okay, my screen just went blake. You are good. He was always willing to share the movement and some people it seems to me were not willing, as willing to show the move as julian was but he made the intersectional analysis, he made the connections with the other movements that follow. [inaudible] expand from focusing on to raise issues to economic issues. Dr. King did the same thing. [inaudible] and already king was a big supporter of gay rights coretta king we dont know what dr. King wouldve done but we know she said. When i was working on the Early Movement and a talk to julian about this and is interesting because it was the first time i realized there wasnt a religious bone in his body which was unusual for blackberry and southcom to, the south and not be religious at all. He didnt technically come out of the south. Nevertheless, it was unusual. I asked about bernice king who said, in austria one point she knows deep down in your solar father did take a vote for samesex marriage. It was a jaunty comment for those of us who followed a king and his legacy. I asked julian about that and expected him to tiptoe around the issue lady just came right out and said shes a homophobe. Theres not another word for it. She has a red her fathers work. He went into a diatribe against bernice king here in fact, she was equally upset at the man whom she worked with who was bishop eddie long from atlanta. Maybe, pam, you could tell a story about julians decision to boycott the funeral of coretta king. It was because it was great be at eddie longs church and he was going to be there, and because he was quite sure that coretta would not have wanted her service to be there. And then i dont know if you remember but it get worse because they disinvited Harry Belafonte and nobody had been closer to the king family and then more for the family in the wake of the assassination ban harry, and so that was an unforgivable thing to do. And julian was right and he was happy that he had not graced the place with his presence. Now i will say bernice seems to have come become somewhat more enlightened since then. Havent seen much evidence on that as i would like. Well get back to it. 9 11 happened when you two were together and maybe if you could walk us through some of julians reactions to 9 11 and the war on terror. That would be really interesting to me because theres not a whole lot there some of it in the book but not a whole lot of it. You know, i guess we all remember where we were. We were on our way driving to charlottesville. Julian was teaching at the university of virginia at the time, and then he had a speech like the very next weekend in consumer in massachusetts and it was may be something to do with kids and they didnt want to cancel it and so we drove, we were driven to this speech. Obviously nobody was flying and we went by what had been the towers. I remember all of that. But julian, you know, i guess his main reaction to 9 11 was to oppose the war in iraq is not the proper response to what it happened on 9 11. At first were open to war but they certainly were not open to the war on terror as infected by president bush. That was pretty clear to me, like many of us, they found evidence flimsy and bushes direction of those were efforts to be pretty lousy. Er, are there questions you might be able to answer . So the first one is from lorraine and she said the bonne quote right at the beginning of this presentation as some mlk quotes do we know if he wasnt even if you never articulate in public . [inaudible] he certainly wasnt a capitalis capitalist. So i guess that makes him a socialist. All right. Let me jump i can as well. He also talked about community socialism. There was a code to what economy of the calls a special during the nixon era black capitalist. He was really upset about his fellow black leaders who focus on getting money for few intellectually and a few entrepreneurs. Bond never went that way. In fact, he was sharply opposed to the lack capitalist movement and spoke instead of the need for community socialism. And if you read some of the book is really amazing because he has this expansive view of the welfare state and he argues in favor of it. Against what he called the war first date. He said 90 of the budget is certain pentagon and 10 to the people. I suspect i dont know whether pam he support the guaranteed annual income but appreciative did. He talked about his disappointment with didnt so much money to farmers, and this was in 70 something, 20,000 not to produce. Why dont we give that to poor people . Why dont we give it to farmers . He had really radical notion of the welfare state, and theres one point in the book and if you just hold on a second, i hope i can find it. No, im not going to be able to find it now. But he lays out policy, a whole list of policies that he thinks will make the good state, and its really telling. Is it on page 78 and 79 where hes really talking about it in the United States is a Colonial Society speech . Thats exactly, e. R. , where it is. I give you an a for that one. 78 in city night, ill go through through the list look. Income and Wealth Distribution for tech structure, progressive tax structure, genuine full employment policy, the elimination of property, primarily poverty, excuse me, primarily by full employment, supplemented by negative income tax. National workforce planning with publicly funded jobs, training, retraining and educational system that they defies vocation as those academic training, decent a formal housing, maximum Agricultural Production to ensure every american a nutritionally adequate diet. National airship on operation of Vital Services, thats the key socialist point, isnt . National regional or municipal ownership and operation of Vital Services for need. Including Rail Passenger system, effective social come to whether by Public Ownership or break up of monopolistic corporations, employee and consumer representation of the governing boards of all Major Industries and delivery of Government Service on the basis of the need. Theres some evidence to back your point. And he had met bernie, i think he would been a bernie, he had met bernie that summer, 2015 and then, had been impressed. The next question comes from allison and allison asked, julian wrote a book about vietnam and his is featured ine national africanamerican museum. Kan pam tell us more about it . Julian was very proud of his comic books and julian had a big collection of black would take it to the museum, but i did not give the comic book and it is on display there. You turn to the page the talks not julians election to the georgia house, and it doesnt say where they got it. He wouldve been really excited that they have the comic book. He did not do the art but he wrote the comic book and it was basically a treatise on antiwar, why war in vietnam should be opposed. And again it was kind of early. Now theres a lot of comic books dealing with serious issues. John lewis has a couple. That book was widely distributed from what i understand, played a formative role in a lot of young lives. Did to he share the same ida about comic books as john lewis, that they were a really effective positive propaganda tool . Yes, i think so. And that is how he wanted this comic book, you know, the antiwar comic book to be regarded. Thank you, allison. Barbara asks, did Harry Belafonte and julian have a relationship . I read the bible and he didnt say much about it. Yes, they were friends. Harry took a group of sncc people to africa for like a month. This was early. That was a fabulous treat for them. They met heads of state and learned a lot. We went to england with harry and his then wife, so there were not best friends but they were definitely friends. Julian was a big admirer of harry. Makes me think of sammy davis, jr. As well. When he talks with the 1963 march on washington, he says his job was really to go renna make sure that all of the entertainers were both taken care of, and apparently he gave a coke to sammy davis, jr. As part of his job, and sammy davis, jr. Went and said thanks, kid. That was a highlight of julians march on washington experience. The sncc obviously was the youngest organization and so that really was, although sncc also was the one organization that had come argue with the most important speech other than king, and thats why they let him give it. But they did have a lot of pull given their use and who was actually running the march on washington. So heather booth says theres no person i admire more than julian in this time of such historic challenge. What you think julian would think about the current black lives matter moving, the fight to defend the police and to invest in the community . What do you think he would call for us to do now . Hi, heather. We talked a little bit about the black lives matter moving at the beginning of this and they said julian was a big admirer. He would be very happy about whats going on now. You know, as far as the protests, upset about the state of vandalism in lawlessness but we hope to have that tempered now if not disappeared. He would come i dont know, i doubt he would be in favor of abolition of the police, but he would be in favor of what seems to be met by defendant, which really isnt thing all that money away. All of this will be flushed out in the coming days but i think its subject to a lot of different interpretations but one of them is redirecting money and not having cops to all of the things they do which they are not trained like Domestic Abuse and School Patrol and all of that. He would be in favor of that, and certainly of reining them in, getting rid of qualified immunity. Theres a lot that needs to happen, and he would be a big proponent of come he would be in favor of the legislation introduced today, you know, and demilitarization, like at some point when we started giving all the surplus military equipment to the cops, that was a horrie idea because then they started thinking that was their proper role. Today, theres just new stuff, new video about killing another person. Its a moment, we hope. The other thing i would add is bond frequently use the phrase lees estate and often said black folks lived in a police state here and the United States. Theres some really nice quotes in the book about that. And julian was afraid of the police and julian was harassed by the police. An education and a suit dont protect you. Heather says she also admires and loves you, pam, thank you for a wonderful conversation. So this question is for both of you. What books, films and documentaries are you reading and watching now that you would recommend to us beyond race man of course . And this is from your publisher. Pam, do you want to jump in . Well, im reading, well, id usually tied to read at least some fiction and nonfiction at the same time, and the fiction isnt necessarily great literature and especially now when i need to escape into mysteries a contemporary novels. So now im reading a novel called before the fall, which is really great. And im reading the new biography of Frederick Douglass, which is also really good. To be honest, stacy, one of the things that i focus on in my reading is what you post on facebook. I recommend everyone go there, stacy or chris, maybe both pose some wonderful things, especially right now and youre going to get some really nice reviews on the black light is moving in the George Floyd Protests. Especially the color tree that has been bubbling forth during covid so thanks to stacy. Ive been reading a lot about. Thats great. We always appreciate the book recommendations. I have been popping some book recommendations from carrots in the chat is also before you log off make sure school back of a look at those an additional history about ella baker, about sncc. Theres good new books coming out about elevator in the fall, and a new book coming out about sncc in the fall so check those out. I dont know if you are in the book about sncc. Who is doing it . The university of georgia. Really . Let me put a plug in for, i do have a book coming out although i never said im writing about because julian wrote it but im editing julians classroom lectures for the corset top of the Civil Rights Movement with harris who wrote the rebellious lives of mrs. Rosa parks, her biography, that is being published by deacon in january great. I will see if we can get the link in the chat for that as well. The only book i would recommend come just recently came out and it is sitting on my desk is the one by martin and malcolm come the New York Times had an interesting piece on that recently. I would encourage you to check that book out as well. So here is pams book coming out. Be sure to click on that. Lets get to the next question. Constance curry spoke to a group of us about her work in french and also mention john lewis. Other of the folks from sncc you build lasting relationships with that you been able to see over the years . Pam, do you want to take this one . Yes, many, many. Judy richardson who was one of the producers of eyes on the prize with sncc, spoke at julians Memorial Service as did kim jenkins representing sncc. Julian saw charlie todd ivanhoe, donaldson, many, many. He regarded his sncc colleagues as lifelong comrades and friends, and there have been reunions, there wouldve been a 40th and the 50th. He had seen them. Some of the miso regularly. Dottie of new york, and most come many of the women, theres a book by sncc women called hands on the freedom file, and dd garment was one one of orgas of the book, i guess, he saw many sncc april. Is it fair to say that his main mentor in sncc . I think he was kind of come he was in some ways everybody mentor. He was older, just enough older, you know, at a time when it mattered. In later of life it wouldnt have mattered if jim was five years older but then he had a maturity and a level of experience that all but a few and he was brilliant in many ways. And did things, you know, sncc had photographers which all of whom were trained by the noted fashion photographer, a famous guy whose name [inaudible] yes. Richard. Yes. This guy, on your cover. So theres this photographic record because, only because of jim hickey told anybody at sncc write it down and so theres a written record that wouldnt have existed, and he really held them together and was exceedingly important to the i think after elevator, jim foreman was the most important person. Certainly among the adults. So our last question is what you think julie would say that mitt romney whom he met when romney was running, marching and saying black lives matter now . You know, i think he would like it. Why not . You need all of the allies, and i think that there would be a lot of things he doesnt like about mitt romney. He certainly would not have voted for him, but whats the saying about we have no home and friends, no permanent enemies . Just permanent interest. Right now it seems interested in racial justice, good for him, and welcome. Thats an important thing. Julian was interested in building constituencies and in forming alliances are of particular issues. Not everybody has always like that. His disappointment with sncc is that started forming alliances after carmichael and brown came into power. He delayed they stop forming alliances and they lost support. He was always building alliances. We have a comment from gill robinson. He said i advocate on the list of issues at the General Assembly in the 80s. Julian was one of a few friendly faces, always supportive though in those days those little legislative success. His mentoring, advice advice come with an levelheadedness were so appreciated. Thats nice, thank you. Thank you for your work. We appreciate it. We have about five minutes left. I want to give you all a chance to say any closing thoughts you have or anything you want to make sure folks know about julian that we didnt get to. How about i go first and then ill give you the closing word if thats okay. Actually it is julians works. From page 227 in race man julian bond selected works, ra hes quoting his grandfather. 15 is a my grandfather was born into slavery and barely able to read and write. His tuition was walk when had miles across kentucky to knock on the door of the calls. The school admitted in 14 years later, asked him to deliver the commencement address when he finally graduated and these are his words. In every cloud, my grandfather said, the pessimist beholds the destructive storm and every flash of the lightning is an omen of evil. In every shadow their falls across its path are working so. He forgets that the clouds also bring life and hope, that lightning purifies the atmosphere, they shadow and doctors prepare for sunshine and growth, and that hardships and adversity nerve the race. At the end of an individual greater efforts and greater victories. Politics of hope as they race man. He had politics of hope to move toward and events as he did. Those are great words from his grandfather. Now that was a perfect way to end. He usually gave that quote when he gave commencement addresses. Julian always considers himself an optimist, and you know, if there is no hope there would be no change. You have to have hope. He would want us to have hope now. And resist. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, e. R. , thank you to city lights books. Thank you. Thank you both. This was a lovely. Thanks for the questions on the ideas. Im going to put the link to race man. Purchase your books, if on the west coast you can also purchase it direct from city lights. They are an incredible resource unlike michael said follow them on all social media seek and stay up with what they are doing. I also dropped a link in the chat to our donation link. This event is free to all people and we are glad you are here if you have money to give, thats how we do our work there were primarily and individual donor supported so we really appreciate it. No amount is too small. It helps us pay for all these platforms and all the stuff and keep our work going through this hard time. If youre able to give its much appreciated. Its very rare that we get to sit and be in conversation with folks like Pamela Horowitz so thank you for sharing your story. Hankie michael for i really well researched and thought out book. Thanks to city lights for all that does. Tonight on booktv in primetime author and political commentator Dinesh Dsouza offers his thoughts on the differences between 20 20th century socialism and socialism today and argues that must be stopped. Dr. Emmanuel former special adviser on Health Policy in the Obama Administration weighs in on which countries have the best health care. Find information on your Program Guide online at booktv. Org. During a Virtual Event hosted by the matin institute Douglas Murray associate editor at the spectator talked about the impact of covid19 on political discourse. Heres a portion. My own expectation with this virus is that makes people double down on what they already thought. That doesnt mean they would get much reach with it but just as there had been certain figures in the eu you all would want to pull sovereignty more, who it said the coronavirus is evidence for why we need to pull sovereignty more, politicians in italy who advocate tied up or sits at this is an expedition come justification for tighter border policy. Everyone can do this for every angle in a way and identity, just the Identity Movement and the social Justice Movement and others are no exception to that extent. It took slightly longer here than it did there for people to Start Playing the sort of social justice identity warrior game but they started inevitably, as people do start by saying women suffer more than men from the virus and then it shows males are disproportionate likely tonight of the virus, they double down and said the men might be doing the dying at its women who are doing the suffering. The endless debates about which ethnic minorities may or may not be suffering more from it and the presentation of those questions instead of in questions about why might that be, something the presentation thingy being yet more evidence of the racism of the society we live in so that we cant even get a virus from china without justifying the use of america we can actually are a racist society or bring his and so on. All of that has been going on. My prediction of it is that what will happen is those people double down as no have simply because thats the only gain a know how to play. They dont not a look at the world and let and less 2000 sp. An intelligent person, a more subtle person might work out if something comes along that youre never thought about before, its possible all your preexisting views and not be justified and vindicated by the arrival of this virus. You might think you might need to talk about something else, but those people were not because this is the one plans to which they see everything. What a way to predict is they will be less wider public sympathy for the claims that are being made because as a rookie of the week in the spectator, when an awful lot of people in the country have declining living standard, were an awful lot of people have seen unemployment, through their families, their own homes, when an awful lot of people have got real grievances, its fairly unlikely to my mind that they want to spend very much time listening to people with made up of grievances. I direct events here at the strand. Were so happy to have everyone here. Before we launch into a discussion of taras new book, strange rites, id like to share a littleto