Transcripts For CSPAN2 Lawrence Rosenthal Empire Of Resentment 20240712

With the technology. Number one, were asking all videos to stay off so we dont get video bombed so that we use all of our bandwidth for the conversation as opposed to video. Number two, to ask questions rather than doing it orally, what we are going to ask you to do is to type your questions into the chat box commit to do that if youre familiar with zoom if you run your cursor across the screen you will see at the bottom of box that says chats, click on chat and you will see off to the right hand of your screen a line at the bottom where you can type it in your questions. As you go through this discussion with Larry Rosenthal, if youd be good enough to type in your questions as they happen they will come directly to me. They will not be shared with the rest of the group because we suspect there might be some trolls here who may want to bomb us with hatred and rage. We just assume not have to have all of you share that. They will come to me and thats fine, i dont mind being there psychiatrist for the afternoon. If you would simply put your chat comments and questions as they arise, as larrys talking just put them in there then what we will do is talk with larry for about 50 to 55 minutes. Then we will then take a five minute and come back and take your questions. We will leave as much time as possible for that so that its interactive as possible with you. Thats how we are going to do it today. Let me do the formal introduction of doctors lawrence rosenthal, the chair and lead researcher of the Berkeley Center for right wing study which he founded in 2009. He taught at uc berkeley in the sociology and Italian Studies Department and was full professor in italy he studied the right in the United States and italy is currently working on a study of the contemporary american right in comparison to moments of the right in 20th century larry europe. Hes written several books hes appeared in many a periodical and the author of a book this fall from new press and listen to the title because its very interesting and may give us some direction for where we are going the title of his new book empire of resentment populisms toxic embrace of nationalism. Back by way of introduction, larry come the podium is yours. Thank you bill. And i think everyone taking the trouble to attend to this. What i like to do is an Opening Statement is talk about the cast of characters who is it we are finding in not only the current rightwingers in the current George Floyd Protests but also one of the extraordinary facts of this historic moment is weve had two movements with people on the streets in large numbers, consecutively, one after the other. The first was the antilock down demonstrations. The people who were fed up with being told to stay indoors and so forth. Then that is followed without any interruption by the George Floyd Protests. About the antilock down protests was that most of the people there were write what i think of as rightwing populists, those are the years are those who dont like to use the term populist to deal with rightwingers but if we go down that road we will never find their way back. The idea here is to the people, if you can think back to 2009 when suddenly the tea party emerged, these are largely the same people. In 2009 the financial crisis had hit and they were feeling economic insecurities. The same thing is true with the coronavirus. The sense of economic insecurity is very deeply felt. The way they argue about those things is in terms of their notion of freedom that their rights were being violated. Back in the tea parties callers used to call that point of view populist constitutionalism. What it meant was that these right wing populists argued that what the constitution managed to how long we understood it should not be simply in the hands of elites like lawyers and judges that individuals can make their own determinations about those questions. What happened in the antilock down demonstrations was essentially that populist regionalism as it was called by scholars. Populist regionalism so it mutated into populist epidemiology. Which was the assertion that these fancy doctors can tell us what to do like they dont know better than we do. A couple of things about the tea party and 2009 and some extent carried over what was at the very beginning of the tea party there were attempts by both White Nationalists and extreme gun enthusiasts. To take over the tea party or make the tea party to adhere to their particular point of view in their particular issue into the tea party and the mans credit to canada versus tibet. Things became different with the antilock down where you got guys, we will get to this, who tended to call themselves google boys. We will get to that. Who appeared in these rallies. So we have the tea party populist. The next category is, its funny because this used to be on everybodys lips and its not talked about all that much anymore. Is the owner to write. Im sure you remember the all to alt right. Its ideologically driven and their ideology is White Nationalism. Very selfconscious about that and selfconsciously in the tradition of fascist ku klux klan and nazi traditions. As a matter of fact, it was after what was called the battle of berkeley in 2017 in april that the head of the alt right, Richard Spencer, he declared after the streetfighting that things had changed for the alt right. It was no longer just going to troll people online, now they were going to fight on the streets. The way he viewed this was that, as he put it, abwhich means that he was making the analogy to prenazi germany. The weimar republic. In the way he characterized it was that you would have as he called the fragmentation of american politics was going to move to extreme polarization because you would have the left and the right fighting it out on the streets, as he says, for space and for ideological space. In this sense, as noam chomsky recently said, the antifor is a gift to this point of view. The position of the alt right in this is that increasingly people are going to have to choose and they will choose the right over the left. Whats important about this is the extent to which it has been echoed in effect by the Trump Administration the Trump Administration has given great credence to the idea that the violence was something only to nt for or as trump called it a couple years ago the alt left. Then it was equivalent. Now its, they are the ones. Displays very much into the strategy of Richard Spencer and the alt right. Third category of people are the blue people. Boogaloo is there were derived from 1980 so i dont know a great deal about that but boogaloo is essentially about civil war its about the time has come for civil war in america. These people are not as distinct, let us say, from the old to write in that White Nationalism isnt their explicit ideology. Their ideology is about guns. These are essentially gun rights activists who been extreme for many years. When theyve gone with this moment is sometimes called acceleration is him which is the idea that their time has come. The moment is ripe for the boogaloo as its now called. The coming of the american civil war. Interesting thing an important point to understand about the Boogaloo Boys as they called themselves. Not only are they gun rights extremists not only talking about civil war but very fundamental to them as being antipolice. So that the presence of police is a provocation to them as these demonstrations have gone on. Let me draw the analogy here or the way in which as with the right point of view this kind of dovetails a little bit with what we are getting from the Trump Administration. At one point, i have a quote here from trump he said, i can tell you i have the support of the police the support of the military the support of the bikers for trump he has conflated constituted authority with gangs. So this gives legitimacy to the boogaloo in a way that wasnt available before. He goes on, i have the tough people they dont play it tough unlike the nt for as he would say. They go to a certain point and it would be very bad. With that, i would say so much for the dramatics persona and lets talk. Great, thank you for opening it that way, larry. You open the pandoras box. He would go down and in. The first thing i want to ask you is, can you attach numbers to this . Are we talking about a small fringe . And in the george floyd demonstrations trying to create violence . Without a doubt the second point. They are in a number of false flag incidents that have been documented its always very hard to talk about the numbers. They are a relatively fringed phenomenon but they been mobilized in considerable numbers given their total in this. I dont know anyone whos in a position to attach this many people are that many people. They also belong to a tradition of not only gun enthusiasts and extremists but also this very idea of this civil war has a long history. At least 40 years there has been a rightwing militia fantasy of there would be an event, somebody would do something and with spark off the war, it was often thought of as a race war, for example, dylann roof and south carolina. Let me stop you right there, larry, you are raising the issue of race and i want to focus on that. In view of the george floyd demonstrations whats been happening for the last three weeks i noticed that you attach the label of kind of White Nationalist to the altar right but then with jewett when it came to the Boogaloo Boys. How sensual is White Supremacy and deepseated racism to the far right here in america . Its fundamental. There such a history of it and it doesnt go away. The alt right is devoted to it. The alt right believes the american white americans are being displaced by others. Those others tend to be dark skin and when they are feeling particularly nazi, jews. So there is that side of things which is firmly racist. The line is blurry between that and whats going on with the acceleration nests. But they are particularly emphasizing gun rights. And some of them are sympathetic to the george floyd story because it was at the hands of the police. Its not entirely clear cut but in answer to your larger question of the place of race, its fundamental. Now i want to try to say, as we talk about this Fringe Movement obviously something very different has happened with the arrival of trump in the presidency. The question is, is he one of them . Do we not now have the far white and control the white house or is he simply using them . I suppose thats the question. From the point in view of the alt right and presumably i dont know this for a fact but its likely from the point of the acceleration nests, trump is a vehicle for them. They understand trump is certainly from point of view of the alt right, not one of them but someone who had allowed their politics to come into the mainstream. Is that he inviting them and encouraging them to come to the mainstream . But he wants to use them which allows me to ask you, for halfcentury of so i avoid using the word fascism. I would say to my lefty friends is not fascism, fascism denigrates what fascism was and how horrible it was. Now it seems to me it may be time to start using that word and i want to ask you, as a historian of italian fascism as well as german fascism, can we start to use that term when we talk about trump and the far right here in the u. S. . Let me give you a little introduction to that answer which is, i agree with you that the word fascism was used loosely both on the left and the right. It was on either side the term of choice for dismissing people. Hes just a fascist. It wasnt analytical tool by and large. That has changed. As soon as donald trump came down his escalator you had the most serious discussion of fascism in this country in my lifetime. Its not just on the left, it was on the right. People like robert kagan he wrote a piece early on in the Trump Campaign which was this is americas notes to fascism. You had Madeleine Albrights book which is fascism a warning. There was a serious discussion of fascism during trumps campaign. But it wasnt fascism, it wasnt fascism because of fascism as a movement required a private militia which trump with all his talking about go knock the crap out of that person at his rallies or in hit his head on the car when you putting them in or get rid of that person, all of his summons to violence did not bring about an organized fascist like militia. Without bad, it wasnt fascism. What you need in addition to that militia to be considered fascist what does he have . What is militia we can come back to that. We show. Absolutely. The other is what comes about in the german case in the nazi case it was called the enabling law what the enabling law did was it allowed hitler to rule by decree. It essentially neutralized its entirety the German Parliament and hed come to power in a legitimate way it came as a result of the burning of the a which was likely a false flag done by the nazis themselves. So you have this movement where you have an emergency followed by, essentially, depriving the legislature of any power. Larry a thats the second line in the sand. The second to mix metaphors thats the second fascist group to come across. Okay. I guess you would argue trump hasnt yet had the emergence allows him to declare himself the allpowerful dictator but with respect to private ai wouldve agreed with you relatively recently that, right, he doesnt, but now he has two it seems to become not exactly private but isis now 2a s report directly to the executive branch. Neither congress or the courts have authority over him. They unilaterally says in the quarter become a course of a cobra demonstrations and then the george floyd demonstrations he says we are defending i. C. E. , not to deal with the border but to deal with unrest in los angeles and in the south and we can use i. C. E. As our troops. The second element i want to throw in for you to discuss lets do it separately. Lets leave the police aside. What about the fact he now has the brown shirt militia called i. C. E. It would seem like one step away, one emergency that gives him authoritarian control do we then call it fascism . I would say that more disturbing than even the place of i. C. E. Were there have been other ab bureau of arms. Alcohol tobacco and arms. Whats more disturbing are the guys they put on a street with no badges. And with no affiliation. That is closer to the dedicated militia than anything weve ever seen. There are athat refer to them as the little green men. Which comes from the description of russian soldiers in Eastern Ukraine while they are placed there is being denied. Thats very compelling. Thats very close to to the line of a private militia or a dedicated militia. When hitler came to power his ss was essentially made part of the state. The organs of the fascist party in italy became organs of the Italian Government under mussolini. So that there is something quite worrisome with respect to specter, if you will, of fascism about the developments, the recent developments of the militia. Get scarier and scarier down and down into the rabbit hole. We talked about the albright we talked about the Trump Administration relationship there. This is not a talk about police reform, what has to be done about policing. I imagine ali will address that with other people but i want to ask you, as the george floyd demonstrations continue, there been some 10,000 arrests across the country. There been 130 journalists arrested. Riverboats being used, people being rounded up when there peacefully protested so they can be arrested. How do you define the place of police force with respect to far right, White Supremacy, fascism. What we do with the fact that police are now seem to be not simply bad apples in the barrel but seems to be some kind of real unified action with trump of course meeting with the heads of Police Forces saying them with you 100 . Its interesting because in the longstanding fantasy on the militia right about the civil war there would be the spark and the need patriots would rise up when they rose up they would be joined by the police and by the military. To some extent, the distinction we are seeing, the difference we are seeing between the military and the police is raised. The statement by general mattis the other day, which really took trump down a peg, very seriously, about what he was doing with respect to the constitution in terms of the army as a potential or joining in the civil war or private militia, there is a kind of obstacle at the head of the armed forces. Its based on proper understanding of constitutional roles. Its interesting i think trump, its hard to know what is selfconscious because hes largely uneducated and not a person who understands political strategy in anything other than what appears to be what happens tomorrow. Or what i see on tv tonight. But if you take Something Like you remember the case of gallagher who was tried by a military court for homicides in iraq. Trump intervened during his courtmartial. There is an end run around the brass of the military which is going to support him. And perhaps therefore in developing among right wingers in the service. One of course remembers Timothy Mcveigh who was precisely that. With the police, there does not seem to be this constitutional bone work at the top that would resist the militarization all. But the place of the police as enforcing trump ideals and trumps policies. And so, that is the longstanding fantasy of what is going to happen. Not leery weve gone right weve talked about the right engine White Supremacy and we need to go in another direction now what you think is the role, connection, enter joining or lack of intertwining of the religious right . The evangelical churches that have always supported trump . I think historically correct me if im wrong neither german fascism depend on Close Relationships with the church but here it seems to me so we have this relationship between trump, the rights, and the church or at least a portion of the church. I think you are right, mussolini comes to power at a moment when the catholic church, and then by then satan 19204, 50 years had refused to recognize the italians to which took away the churches lands during the unification of italy from 1816 to 1870. But trump, excuse me, did successfully come to terms with the church. Which none of parliamentary governments before him. He signed in 19209 in the church then recognized the fascist regime. And they were given significant control over education. There was a connection but in a way that was more using, how should we say the organized church as a political ally. What we are getting today among nationalist leaders is a great deal of religion and populism merge as a key bit of support. You get that for example in poland, with the and nationalist and liberal party in power, his dependency on the church and his alliance with them. His constituency of believers is what keeps him in power. One can look to india who is explicitly a government of hindu nationalism. Putin and his relationship to the Russian Orthodox church is something similar. Trump, amazingly, has the support of u. S. Evangelicals. The people who arrived on the National Scene under the title the majority. It is extraordinary irony this twice divorced is there guy of choice. And they are the most solid of his base. The one how you explain it . Guest as a side, i dont think the religious right is a factor in the violence or the darkest parts of the demonstrations. We see either anti lockdown or. [inaudible] here is why it seems this has happened. There are two elements of it. One is trump was very clearly saying to them during his campaign it has come through since he was going to attend to their most compelling issues. The most compelling mike there are two most compelling issues. One is yea marriage, getting rid of it. The second and most important is antiabortion. Trump did an extraordinary thing during the campaign which is he published a list of people he was going to put on the supreme court. They were all selected by the federal society the aim was to bring down roe versus wade. So you have the judges you have this political side of things and then how do you square that with this plainly, morally wanting human being. And that has been of particular interest. On the way it has happened is they read trump back into the bible. Host king david. The two main ones are king david and king cyrus. King david was as they say a murderer, and adulterer, but god said hes good to be the king. As Jerry Falwell junior said we are not picking a pastor in chief here. King cyrus which is even more popular on the evangelical side, he was the king who let the jews out of babylonian captivity as he was king of the persians. He brought about the jews being freed. And from that point of view, what trump represents is gods deliverance of someone who is not of us. But can deliver us. Host got it. Guest it seems as though it was almost inevitable or necessary in order to maintain or come to terms with this extraordinary amount of dissidents that the bible turned out to be the answer. Host okay, let me now having more or less tried to cover the territory, the rangers who is part of the following or connected to the following in these times. You have studied italian fascism in particular as well as german fascism. How close, as you see whats going on here in america now, do you think we are to a german or italian experience . Or how far from it are we . Are we hedging closer and closer were our are we still a long ways away . Guest a couple of things. One, the republic was put together on 1919 or 1920, 14 years of parliamentary democracy. In italy you had a parliamentary regime with a king since the italian reunification. It was life with problems. So the difference between that and the usa is considerable on the institutional level. The usa with all of the errors with the being dishonored again and again and again, to the extent to which we are talking to people on the left these are the things you have been marching about your adult lives. We know that is the case. Their institutions are stronger there much stronger and liberal regimes especially in europe. Liberalism there are slow deterioration of democracy. Underlining all of the things where they are not in the state and in the state packing the courts you will always win the vote in museums and so forth in the same way there are foundations of democracy have been eroded in places lets take the leading place which is hungry under victor who gives that name to the world he has arguments for this is what democracy is going to look like. Its the only way democratic countries are going to survive. Sue and i dont know what that means we slip into that kind of slang for that kind of language to me stop you for a minute. The only way democracy survives is when you have an illegal regime or enabling act that lets one man run the country. Guest thats the redline, the enabling act. We have not had that until the emergency. In other words. Guest hes cross that fascist he did that by declaring an emergency and a ruling by degrees may be a little lesson that come up to and cross that line is an emergency based on he declared lots of emergencies around the refugee crisis a few years ago. But there was no moving wanted who the thinkers are without it steve bannon in the beginning of the people around trump to where we are now with fascism. It is emerging point of view called conservatism. [inaudible] they have at events, books, basically what they argue is that the way in which people like you and me might regard american constitutionalism or the things like the declaration of independence, the values and the principles upon which american democracy sits. We think it is in the words, we hold these truths to be selfevident. It is a propositional notion of what american democracy is. They argue otherwise. They argue it is not not the words but the people who wrote them. Its above all religion. That is an evolving in california there is the Claremont Institute which is kind of the intellectual center of that in the u. S. Tucker carlson was very well received of these conventions. I forget what state think its joshua halley. He is very well regarded risen almost as trump comes to power and how do we explain this . What is trump is him . They are almost backfilling. Its an ideology which reverses the way which things normally happen is you have ideology then you have that is almost like backfilling. Okay what is this . That is a labor thats on going. In the inner circle were used a build bar, steven muller. Guest bar comes on the Federalist Society part of the federal society that argued. Fiercely thats what they call the unitary executive. Basically meant the executive is relatively unbalanced. The checks and balances that conventional thinking has around the president. They were not operative. Both cheney and rumsfeld were very strong proponents of this point of view. It actually had a great deal of impact. There are theorists of it. There are lots of lawyers developing around it and so forth. And then you have the view of it which is trump sink article two of the constitution i can do anything i want. They give him the ideology to support. I want to go to further places my time with you is running out. Thereto for the things i want to touch on before he opened it up to questions. The first one, youve taken us all the way down in a dark dark hole. What is the way out . Youve studied history. How do we get out of this . We are not even going to talk about some of the things anymore or Boris Johnson but right here in america as i watch let me put it this way as i watch the demonstration develop. I have felt great hope. People are in the streets resisting in the way since the 1960s black americas leading the way. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people out in the streets. How do we get from the mess we are in now to a better america . You remember the old song love me, love me, love me on original . Thats what i think of myself in those terms. The plain and obvious way out of it is voting him out. And the circumstances seem ready for that. The current crises which are financial and 100,000 people you have these extraordinary crises on the one hand and which if you read the right ring intent wing press or doing these things as regarded as heroic which is very difficult. You look out the window you say today they look up the windows at night. It is a very different understanding of it. The way i look at the election is you have the model of 2016 and the model of 28. In both of those cases, what determined the election was with the Political Science called negative partisanship. Which means in 2016, so many people deeply disliked Hillary Clinton that they went for donald trump. In 2018, blue america who had been somewhat indifferent to Hillary Clinton, blue america had had two years of donald trump and turned out in massive numbers in fact the house of representatives. That was also about negative partisanship. There is no reason to believe, in my view, that dynamic has not been maintained or become more focused in the last two years. Which suggests that blue america will turn out and turned donald trump out of office. There are a lot of ifs around that. In the if saar the person as a matter of course, projects his own ideas onto others. Talks nonstop again. Clearly tried something in the ukraine and god knows what else. But one thing that is clear, is that in 2016, with the Trump Campaign did, the bubble on facebook was absolutely fundamental to their victory. What basically happened on facebook as they delivered fake news. That is a tricky phrase because truck picked it up. And now theres a difference is rained real fake news and fake fake news. So real fake news its like the pope is come out for donald trump. I was micro targeted. This is thing like cambridge came in and orchestrated things like that. Host is back to do that again. Guest not only is he back to do that again he is the Campaign Manager pretties not the guy sitting in the tech office anymore. Hes the guy. They pushed all of their chips out, what is going to go out online. But that means is a lot of stuff we are not going to see. Theres a lot of stuff we are not going to know. So based on the places of negative partisanship, but does look promising that blue america should win. But we dont know its going on. Not even on facebook. See when we could go another hour larry, two minutes, one paragraph, the title fascinates me. Empire resentment, populism embrace nationalism. One paragraph what is the book about . Guest a. First when the publican nomination on the president s about americas right wing populace. They had brought into ideology of extreme Free Market Fund though it undone fundamentalism. The point of view of people like the Koch Brothers. We are giving you paragraph so we can discuss that. So we went one paragraph. Guest one paragraph. What trump did not ideology to american first ideology. Secondarily, he is part of the international, which is the nationals international. He also rose up was on the fringe of american politics. Had no place in politics in washington bird they could have local politics the White Nationalist clue clocks clan fringe. None of them in my lifetimes had anything to president ial politics. They are mobilized trump in one debate that he is a 400 pounds kid on his mothers a bed in the bedroom doing these things, he also mobilized kind of the alienated young men who were online and essentially nihilistic. Host got it. One paragraph on the book for those who want to see more of what larry thanks, i comes out this fall. What were going to do now there is take about a fiveminute break im going to look at the questions in the chat box, people have time, my understanding is theres aligned to the bathroom should build in and out quickly will come back, start shooting questions you in the chat box. Anyone who wants to add a question please do take these few minutes to add your questions will go to that with larry, see you at about four minutes. Stomach i am jumping in early because there are great are so many of them. Well take a break for dinner and maybe have a little schnapps at 11 and go until two. Let me start with this one. What if White Supremacy is not a unique fringe element but a core structural fact of the u. S. Protests about george floyd is not about Police Brutality but the structural reality. Theres no doubt its a structural reality. People use the original sin with the u. S. And gone away. Im happy to have a question because i would not like anything i have said to suggest otherwise. White supremacy, not quite White Nationalist as much. Making a distinction about what nationalism is as opposed to White Supremacy. Nationalism especially in its current form is the idea that White Privilege has been taken away. Let me find it i have a good quote from Richard Spencer. White dispossession is so real, but so obvious just one something cannot ignore. Reaction had to occur theres just an answer of when and how not weather. So with this argument, not justifying it any way shape or form. This is the feeling that moves White Nationalist is to put it this way they may always have had a seat at the table and suddenly there are these others whose values they dont respect who are displacing them. Host do think thats thats different from white supremacist thinking . Guest this is a function of the age of mass integration. For the perception. The 2016 election was about latinos. , it was about immigrants. Trump was going to build a wall. The regimes throughout europe that comes from movements about migrants. It does not deny or say otherwise is making a distinction between White Supremacy and White Nationalism. There is this notion, a theory is called, doesnt import from france. France has been talking since the 1970s. What it means is not only real french being displaced by people from africa, muslims and so forth there are conspiracies at work to make that happen. So if you remember charlottesville you will not replace us. It is that which is at the heart of contemporary. Sue and i understand or maybe im misunderstanding what youre saying in a certain sense is White Supremacy, in my mind has been born of the experience of slavery in america. To the hatred ive been the feeling of i am superior black americans. White nationalism it seems to me is addressed to people who are coming across the borders. Who are coming from the south and far east and are called yellow. So it could be. It could be this movement could be based around opposition to immigration which is the explicit message of the Trump Campaign. But what it also did was when you define essentially as the other. What has happened has expanded becomes the most capacious of these categories. It is the thing that allows the greatest number of whites people to identify with it. And on the other hand i put the black and brown people and jewish people in the same category. Host we have a substantial Asian Community also. Who is not as coolly regarded. Host lets go to another question prayed something youve touched on, non academic relatives, are getting messages by facebook and other social media that insist nancy pelosi and the saint main street media are preventing us from doing all the marvelous things donald trump is accomplishing for us with lists of great achievement. How can we know what messages are being targeted at audiences we dont see or belong to . We dont. The problem is we dont. Thats wise referring to earlie earlier. If on the surface, negative partisanship makes the prospect of 2020 election look good through america, the problem is we dont know what these messages i what these new stories that real fake news stories are not conveying to this highly targeted facebook population. We dont know thats what puts this election at the question of this election. See when we havent talked about both talk about the role of the internet. Im not sure it is a net net benefit for the internet. Its marvelous we can talk and a lot of people enjoying the conversation. Im seems me if you took away twitter you would not have trump bird and if you took away facebook you wouldnt have this a massive support for trump. Guest there is no doubt that i would increase that how the network forces on the right are. The militia right earlier doctors of all Networking Technology back in the 1980s and they have stuck with it and stuck with it and stuck with it. I would say that fox news was an artifact of the coming of cable tv. An artifact the coming of the internet. There is no doubt that the right and these dark corners of the right thrive on it. But not only thrive on it domestically, the connectivity internationally among these groups is extraordinary. The nationalist internationals very heavily networked. Whether it is a final plus or final negative is, at this point may be a theological question. Host good enough. Heres a question of something we did not touch on but it is important. The person says isnt mitch mcconnell, representative of an additional faction of the far right. One that is also using trump to further their agenda . Are there parallels in fascist italy or germany . Guest if you take me a call the establishment in italy and germany, they both made a bet. From there that was okay these guys are going to get rid of her opposition, socialist and communist. We will be able to control them. They thought they could ride the tiger. Instead they got eaten by the tiger. There is a kind of parallel there. There is a real question about the Republican Party to trump is him. Mitch romney is now heroically standing out for the occasional misstep. And there were steps along the way. The first one so many of them were never trumpeters. And they say this is lindsay graham. And then well hes going to sign her bills. That is step one. And then step two hour constituency has turned. If we are not going to be primary out of office, we have to placate the now trump voting base populace voting base of the Republican Party. And then finally, i called sociology one oh one. Its as if you read low theory if you take on a role, often enough you become it. I think to a larger extent they have become that. What will cure their fever, i dont know the answer to that. Host let me move to another question. To what extent is their penetration in the military and or the police . Guest i think it is considerable i think what we are seeing in terms of the police kind of speaks for itself. We have the head of the union of the Minneapolis Police force who has been lauded and loves trump. And literally opposed to any kind of sanctioned against show over and his collaborators. So i think that is representative not only of individuals within Police Forces, but organized police force. And i imagine inside those police resources. That it would be extremely difficult to counter that ideology. I would distinguish between the effect of the professional kind of managing class of the police. An encouraging class of the military. The officers the kelleys, the madisons. Who have been and they have been consistent throughout the trump time. There was a strong sense of we are going to be in his cabinet to keep things on the straight and narrow to whatever extent we can. That is like trying to fill a glass of water with a firehose. You could not do it. Insofar as they represent the professional class of the military, they are not or they remain an obstacle. Got it. Another question, what do you make of the latest beef between trump and the pope . Any impact in the usa . Guest that is a good question since american catholics have a kind of emotional bond on each side of this. American catholics are not as fond of francis as they were of john paul ii, the polish pope who was a cold warrior. And francis is kind of a libera liberal. He is outspoken to change the church hes run into a great deal of opposition. So catholics do have a kind o of which very strongly avoid the term dual loyalty. They are pulled into different directions. It will be interesting, the extent to which the american clergy become more francis friendly over the succeeding months. Host heres one about the Boogaloo Boys. What do they hope to establish with their civil war . What with the new government and Society Look Like . Guest that is one of the distinctions between them of the White Nationalist. The purely white ethnic states. There is, where you end up. The thing about acceleration was they had kind of given up on an ideal what theyre aiming for. It is bringing it down on its own terms. Its we will figure it out late later. That is the essence of acceleration which will become a force in that world in the past few years. They dont have one. Another question, something weve not explored at all that i think is important, can you please discuss business interesting and see far right they funded the anti lockdown protests are funding protests with some of these families be scared if the far right trump point clearly election . So trump with the far right . Guest you take Something Like the Koch Brothers or the remaining cocoa brother. They are not ideologically in step with trump. They will support him and things like the tax cuts. But they are appalled by the alienation of foreign allies. They are appalled by what he is under trade agreements. They are appalled by the immigration stuff. There is no simple correspondence between trump is him and big capital in this country. Host larry i think the person is putting two things we may want to separate. Were talking big capital Corporate America business america were also talk about Family Foundations the singers , et cetera. Guest thats why talk about the Koch Brothers. The extent to which the family was very, very much a supporter over the past they took an extreme view of it but they were supporters of it. Like the Republican Party those have become trump ians. In whether they revert back they will always be more radical than republican orthodox. The same is true with the Koch Brothers. Those radical points of view have been really susceptible to turning into the trump directio direction. That has been the case as you can see with this family. Host sometimes i wonder if Corporate Capital needs an active growing healthy economy whereas the Family Foundation has piles and piles. They just want an absence of regulation and absent of tax leave me alone. Or their corporation to need an active government to support them to fund them and to give them all the help the fed the treasury and so on. There is a parallel there. If you think about what donald trump represented as a businessman, it was a business. He did not have a board of directors. It was a closed shop. Which the kinds of things he di did. Kind of things of blowing off contractors and not paying them. He has had 4500 lawsuits. Cement i think he is a bankrupt one after another and businesses. Was a very different business formation than people who work in public corporations. There is a really different formation. Theres a wonderful article of trumps presidency mrs. Gary marks. Is this amazing parallel this is a standup guy like versus who was it flynn i think know that wasnt it. That kind of thing. The very plot as it were from the ukrainians. Would like for you to do us a favor. We have friends who just call them mafia. That is it is a different economic universe with different normals, different values, and different ways of operation. The Koch Brothers are privately held as well. Civic heres an interesting one. I watch closely the live streams from pro trump demonstrations including the battle of berkeley, and portland were a lot of the guys in portland in particular seemed like a one to be sprayed out of shape, middle age guys in armor who are not likely to be very useful in quote battle. How many of the militia types really, though they wont admit it, think its a game they posture and shout but they dont expect to be called upon to fight. Guest that is a great question. I would say to the extent to which we have any evidence of that. His rising patriotism never happens. There been considerable provocations. Timothy mcveigh was such a provocation. And you can go on and on and on. He is not worded by sidley and there would be the coming of the civil war was been with the militia since the 1970s and see publication of a book called the turner diaries to an apocalyptic end. But to the extent to which we know an answer to that. It has not happened. See what think someone asked about the geography of the far right. Are there certain states for the hangout . Where the more concentrated or less concentrated . Guest famously there are certain states of the really concentrated like idaho they talk about it snow states, thats the general area of course is Northern California which is have the state of jefferson which takes in parts as well as idaho and oregon. Which hasnt gone on for very long time. Whats really interesting about the trump constituency, in my view, is that the best predictor of who would be a trump voter was not the presence of immigrants in their midst, but the absence. So people tended i call this the imaginary other, the imaginary other was far more threatening and far more effective politically than actually living among immigrants. So the trump constituency is interestingly very well perhaps its best with geographic dispersal is notable for living in places and zip codes re do not find immigrants. Host there are a whole series that are asking a crystal ball ill throw them at you but maybe its beyond your abilities of your crystal ball today. One says, what if he loses the election and refuses to leave office . What if it is very close and he refuses to leave office . If he were to lose, what might these groups do if he were to lose . Questions about basically what happens if the election either comes apart at the seams, it doesnt go well, or is a real mess . Again, we have history which says that they dont rise up when the patriarchs dont really rise up. One of the things i think could make it different and this has always been there, in the trump kind of catalog of what he might do, is war. That would be an event which could lead to the kind of emergency situation that would at once affect institutions and at the same time actually motivate the militia to move. So that actually is to me my biggest worry. If you think about to use the example of the rise of fascism. Before world war one you did not have fascism. You did have a nationalism. Which isnt all that different from eight nationalism we have today. In fact it is kind of the four runner of the nationalism we have today. But you get after the war, fascism. You get that because you have a body of people who have been to war and who have come from these are people from the countryside and this is their major exposure to the nation. Their learning curve is war. That was very functional for the rise of fascism. It is forewarned in march of 1919. And it comes to power in italy in november of 22. That is less than a president ial term. The biggest worry about going from where we are and on the one hand trump is tempting to institute and on the other hand are institutions have resisted the biggest threat to that. Host larry that might be the darkest but most appropriate clothes we are past the 5 00 oclock hour it has been fascinating talking to you ive learned a tremendous amount. I can tell by the number of people who are still here that people have found it as fascinating as i have. So its to thank you very, very much for joining halley and spending this time with us slicing and dicing with the far right is that it which remind people one more time, empire resentment populisms topic engine embrace of nationalism is out in the fall. Guest actually the end of the summer september 8. See want any last words of wisdom, terror, fear, hope . Lets make it words of hope. Guest we still have elections in this country. Love me, love me, love me i am a liberal, this is the mechanism of coming out of gerald ford what he called the Long National nightmare. This is the outer of it for us. See what i want to thank all of you who have joined us, let me think how late the Lifelong Learning institute which will be offering many more discussions like this about americas unfinished business. I personally want to thank Larry Rosenthal because it is been just wonderful larry thank you very much. Let me think halley and i understand there are people out there who are viewing this that have listen to this. And while you are all faceless, thank you for being here. There you go, i think weve taken you through the now powered onto the cocktail time. Take care larry. Here are some of the current bestselling non fiction books. Topping the list we argue america must choose to be antiracist and work toward the more Equitable Society and how to be an antiracist. Then in the room where it happen forward Trump National security adviser john bolton describes his experience in his time of the administration that is followed by activist on. After that is the splendid and vile historic eric larsons look at Winston Churchills leadership during the blitz. Some of the bustling nonfiction books according to indy boundaries between the world and me. National book Award Winning author looking at the state of black america. Most of these authors have appeared on book tv you can watch them online booktv. Org. The president s from Public Affairs available now in paperback and ebook. Presents biographies of every president s, organized by the ranking by noted historians from best to worst. And features perspectives into the lives of our nations chief executives and leadership styles. Visit our website, cspan. Org thepresident to learn more about each president and historian feature order your copy today, wherever books and ebooks are sold. Cspan has unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court, and publicpolicy events. You can watch all the book of fair programming on television, online or visit on the free radio app and be part of the National Conversation through cspan daily Washington Journal Program or through our social media feed. Cspan, created by americas Television Companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Here is a look at some books being published this week. Magazine cofounder thomas frank has a history of populism and the people know. In red november editor at large joe pollick exams the 2020 democratic primary. And kate green describes her time in a Mars Mission Simulation once upon a time i lived on mars. Also published this week and shuttle houston paul guy looks back at his career is nasas longestserving flight director. The life of american outlaw, butch former National Editor for usa today and centurion ministries founder examines the work that ministries does to overturn wrongful convictions and when truth is all you have. And covid19 science journalist Deborah Mckenzie looks at how covid19 outbreak in china becomes a global pandemic. Find these titles this coming week wherever books are sold look for authors in the near future on cspan2. One of the issues with the john bolton book, the room where it happened was prereview by the government. Tom is the director of the archives and he joins us now on book tv to talk about this prepublication review system. How did this develop . The original prepublication review was an artifact of the 1970s when some former cia agents particularly a guy name victor marchetti