Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing On COVID-19 Use Of Artificial Intelligence 20240712

Now come to order. Without objection members of the full committee got on this task force are operas to participate. Members are reminded to keep their video function on at all times even when they are not denies by the chair. Members are also reminded that they are responsible for meeting and unmating themselves and to meet themselves after they are finished speaking. Each rose 965 only use members and witnesses is appropriate when not recognized to avoid in an ardent background noises. Members are reminded that all house rules related to order applies to this remote area. Exposure notification and Contact Tracing how ai helps localities reopened safely and researchers and i will now recognize myself for four minutes to give an opening statement. Good morning to todays hearing will focus on the essential tradeoff of the covid19 pandemic is forcing upon us between life liberty privacy and the pursuit of happiness. The role but technology to financial transaction data and Artificial Intelligence in particular may be able to play to improve that essential tradeoff. There will be a tradeoff. Americans have come to see privacy as an essential part of liberty and the. Off between privacy and statism are something that we struggle with continually on the Financial Services committee. Once only concerned for life in the pursuit of happiness and crushing the covid19 virus as quickly as possible one can imagine setting up a dystopian surveillance feed wherever it credit card purchase at every web search query and the exact location of every cell phone were continuously monitored and where and powered facial wreck ignition pattern would work toward ones every move not only when you are buying groceries at whole foods but everywhere you went. This would be an epidemiologist dream and would likely allow whatever country implemented that to very rapidly crush the coronavirus pandemic. Whenever someone tested positive for their credit card purchases their cell phone data and all their Financial Data and other data would be immediately analyzed. Some press reports indicate that korea and otherwise fairly free country finds credit card data to be a key component in effective Contact Tracing. This aggressive approach would allow Scientific Understanding of the spreading mechanisms as well. Ai learning mechanisms might learn you are much more likely to spread the disease if you buy three beers at the bar that if you bought only one. Cell phone location data would indicate that you are likely who you were likely to spread to. Such a pandemic surveillance they a Pandemic Service they will would correctly identify in realtime for example the super spreader individuals and churches and Sports Events were especially dangerous places to congregate the surveillance state like that without a medically warned black lives matter protesters to disperse and there are huge number of worries along those lines. This is all essentially, this is not science fiction. This is essentially the same technology that hong kong and the chinese mainland government is using to suppress protesters. Such surveillance societies might well save lives and maximize life and arguably even part of the pursuit of happiness but perhaps it would even maximize economic liberty by opening our economy sooner. This would come at a tremendous cost to individual privacy and liberty. A tradeoff that we make responding to covid19 have real financial and economic a recent study by Goldman Sachs quantified the tradeoff between mandatory masking policies which is unquestionably an infringement on personal liberty and Economic Growth rate they found them surprisingly that mandatory masking policies have a negative impact on the spread of covid19 but a positive impact on Economic Growth. This allow countries with mandatory masking policies to reopen their economy sooner while maintaining acceptable covid19 infection rates thereby successfully trading off a the loss of liberty for mandatory masking or an increase in economic liberty from early reopening. Contact tracing up together with ai that combines raw data cell phone tracking in various forms with other data sources including financial that might opt into on a voluntary basis and hence the potential to capture some of the health and economic edifice of much more intrusive monitoring all preserving acceptable levels of privacy for those who opt in. This hearing we have expert experience in the development of privacy preserving Contact Tracing software and studying the perils that may lurk in discrimination of technology. Look forward to hearing from our witnesses and will now recognize the Ranking Member for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman and a special thank you to our witnesses for being part of this hearing today. Today we will discuss how technology can assist the country with reopening. There many ways in which local state and federal governments as well as businesses schools and other organizations can take advantage of modern technology to help our communities get back to normal. One area where technology could be useful is in Contact Tracing. The manual method of public Contact Tracing of all speaking with people at the virus and identify people that they had close contact with during this time they had infections notifying people of erics pusher and referring them for t. A nation with about three to 30 Million People its difficult to do manual Contact Tracing on a large scale however theres Encouraging Technology that can enable Contact Tracing be done with cell phones and bluetooth and match them to the movement of others have been exposed to the virus in order for digital Contact Tracing to work it must have strong participation. Experts estimate of 40 to 60 of the population given area would need to participate in Contact Tracing system for it to be affected by this means in the United States where participation in Contact Tracing is voluntary and it should be and is handled primarily by state and local Public Health officials citizens will need to trust the apps they are using and feel confident their privacy will not be violated. In order to have that trust is critical that citizens understand what data will be collected and we will have access to the data and how the data will be used. So far rates of participation and support for Contact Tracing and unloaded at states and other parts of the world. Recent polling indicates about twothirds of americans would agree at the Contact Tracing app developed by the federal government. Some european entries where the government has released the Contact Tracing app less than 3 of the appalacian is using the app. Countries like china have increased perspiration by making Contact Tracing mandatory and have used social media platforms to track movements. Needless to say it should not happen in the United States. Given that privacy will be paramount a major factor in our ability for Contact Tracing is we do not have a federal consumer data log nor do we have a National Data Security Breach notification system. Contact tracing is operating under state law and the circumstances may only increase the need for that standard. Many republicans have been working diligently to develop a Consumer Data Privacy proposal without a national Consumer Data Privacy protection law. This issue is best left up to the state. Another limiting factor is the accuracy of digital Contact Tracing app and has been questionable and could result in false positives or false negatives for the cd stated in their guidelines if more data is needed to assess the true Public Health value of digital Contact Tracing. Contact traces as consumers to give their Social Security number or Bank Account Number which can subject people to fraud, subject consumers to fraud and further reduce the Publics Trust in Contact Tracing. Another challenge is low income and Homeless Individuals whove been disproportionately affected by the virus often did not have a smartphone which limits the effectiveness of digital Contact Tracing in those populations. While these are important topics to address they generally are not Financial Services conditions in its best to have these discussions with committees of jurisdiction for example the energy and Commerce Committee will have a hearing and 70s issues tomorrow. I look forward to talking more with you and i yield back. The chair will now recognize the chairwoman of the full committee for one minute. C thank you very much chairman foster. Thank you for holding this hearing and containing preventing the spread of the coronavirus is essential to while last weeks employment numbers demonstrated a slight rebound in the number of coronavirus cases is sharply increasing in states have halted Contact Tracing and limiting coronavirus is critical for all aspects including Financial Institutions that may bring workers back to the work waste wood i look forward to hearing our experts discuss howard official intelligence and other technologies can be used in an inclusive manner helping contain the coronavirus and ultimately keep people safe but i want to thank you and i yield back the balance of my time. Thank you and today we welcome the testimony of Brian Mcclendon. Previously he was Vice President and cofounder of google earth and street view and Vice President of uber. And doctors Krutika Kuppalli and Infectious Disease physician who has proves they worked on the front lines including the 2014 west africa Ebola Outbreak in the currency or see Ebola Outbreak and Novel Coronavirus outbreak. Andre carry curia fell at the metropolitan policy program of the Brookings Institute his research is focused on inequality and economic inclusion and since the onset of the covid19 pandemic the underlying causes of the outside number of coronavirus related deaths. And Ramesh Raskar a professor where he focuses on Machine Learning for health and sustainability and founder of the past Check Foundation of global nonprofit building Opensource Software and standards for digital Contact Tracing and exposure notification to stop covid19. Witnesses are minded to your oral testimony will be limited to five minutes. Chime will go back well go off at the end of your time do we asked that you respect the time of your witnesses. The witnesses statement will be made part of the Record Record and mr. Mcclendon you are recognized for five minutes to give an oral presentation. Sammy chairman foster Ranking Member loudermilk and members of task force my name is Brian Mcclendon and number regents professor at the university of kansas. We lead the team in georelated services. In my testimonial described how privacy disclosure and Data Collection impact their ability to identify located and isolate those who been exposed or infected by covid19. Cdc project as a father wednesday. Focus on helping america reopen responsibly given the ongoing pandemic and together with my team of engineers and Product Developers user data privacy built into the key out and we are focused on getting that adopted throughout the country day. Focus on individual symptom checking policy committee cage and across committees and Access Control at venues such as universities such as schools losers in the media bears a significant need to improve communication of policies if we hoped operated anywhere near normal in the next few months. Artificial intelligence and Machine Learning require large amounts of Data Collection. This data helps algorithms figure out how to make better predictions. The most valuable way to con combat covid19 is Contact Tracing. Early detection recording and td quarantine. You can shut down the spread of virus faster than any method but only if its resourced efficiently and well. Contact tracers most people dont pick up the numbers. What it does reach a potential case they have to make a decision about whether to the person the quarantine based on what they learned about the persons risk during that conversation. Without quick information from the infected or exposed the virus is quietly spreading through exposure as a way to use cell phone dated to detect afterthefact when they are near someone who tested positive for covid19 by notifying you you in a poor meal the next steps to be tested are quarantined to these new apps help with less effort more accuracy and more coverage than otherwise possible. There are two ways to do this. The first is using gps information permanent back to person relative to everyone else. Gps locations are now back or even out doors to ensure someone is within six weeks for 10 minutes with the other more serious palm with location data sick contains personally identifying operation that can be impossible or myth. If i can guess were some works in live i can figure out who that person is usually by pulling Additional Data from kirsch commercially available sources such as echo facts. It did not meet did not meet with success for multiple reasons for the biggest one was fear that big tech was tracking everyone in next gps locations has a material impact. Finally gurley implications without sufficient protections of data can be exposed and misused by the government. A better solution is to use Bluetooth Low Energy signals. It would still allow tracking but he could come to an agreement on the privacy equipment and was developed to work on android and ios. Countries helped agencies using this test. They werent delusional enough to assume its the solution to be adopted working with one group per stay. My team is building the app and he believes that Research Privacy better works better than the gps solution. The goal is to get as many people as possible to download the app of the challenges even if we get 40 uniform across the group we only have 16 of exposures detected so we need to find better ways to market the app. The privacy is a much better than gps because the data that essentially is uploaded in the rare case where you are infected set of random numbers that have no personally identify both identifiable applications. They notify their users without doing any work at all of them tell the user theyve been exposed and recommend they call the Contact Tracing team. These inbound calls make Contact Tracing more essential efficient i believe privacy is critical to marketing these apps and i think americans are worried about what these apps can do. Thank you for your time. Thank you and Krutika Kuppalli you are now recognized for five minutes. C thank you chairman foster Ranking Member loudermilk distinguised merris the task force for the opportunity to testify before you today by mr. Lay grateful for your commitment to these efforts in the United States is their attempt to control the deadly pandemic. Im in a texas disease physician by training and have extensive experience in Global Health and Health Security through my Clinical Research interests focus on strengthening and researching preparedness and Response Research and Clinical Care for emerging infections and health care policy. As the covid19 pandemic continues to spread across the United States i hope to give you greater understanding of the effect this has on the bubble and Economic Security of United States would all discuss challenges facing Public Health experts and researchers leading efforts domestically and ill explain how we have available resource to improve our response capacity and provide examples of other countries have successfully implemented policies in fighting covid19 and some present time is vital for the United States to cooperate with the committee so we can learn from each other to develop best practices to ensure science informs policy. In early 2020 as the world watched covid19 move over over wuhan and spread to china countries appeared for the inevitable. Governments posed an unprecedented risk to the health of the country in a preparedness plan. The component of successful a number one the development of a comprehensive National Plan led by science, scaling up of testie prioritization and implementation of Contact Tracing. That accounts for 4 of the global population and for 25 of covid19 cases its locally bit more concerning in the past month or so record increase of covid19 cases with over 45,000 cases since july 1 at a record 60,000 cases in the last 24 hours meaning the halting our personal of this opening across the country. With coronavirus patient searching across an essay to them. If we adopt elements in a response which includes the cohesive plan led by science. The cornerstone of such a plan should be to test isolate and Contact Trace cases so we can contain this pandemic preContact Tracing often called the lynchpin lynchpin of a topic response is critical to identifying those who have potentially been exposed. While many states have hired Contact Tracers additional federal resources infrastructure and training will be required to ensure we have the sufficient and will coordinate a workforce to provide this vital path. Based on Current Population data experts estimate each case requires 10 to 25 contacts to be traced and that requires at least. It doesnt Contact Tracers. Another vital component of successful Contact Tracing is leveraging new and Innovative Technologies to promote implementation strategies speed vote technologies are increasing in use this is important to remember the Public Health information Data Protection and data privacy when using the technology. South koreas mcnab of a country that is successfully contain covid19 and use technology to assist in their con tech tracing efforts in the aftermath of 2015 mrsa break resources and Training Health care personnel resulted in infrastructure and Laboratory Capacity for future infections. When the 2019 outbreak hit and tucker in addition to using standard methods of Contact Tracing the overuse medical records gps systems credit Card Transactions to utilize more robust Contact Tracing system. It was thought this information provided more record information on individuals for duration of exposure and other relevant details than a patient that might not be able to call and confirm. Consideration of protocols for privacy were taken into account to ensure only information related to it was committed k. Covid19 is the greatest social health and economic threat of our generation and how we choose to manage it will be our legacy we have a vaccine we will. I. Am using surveillance testing Contact Tracing and isolation to prevent transmission. Given the United States prominent global World Technology our expertise is a opportunity to take a leading role. Finally we can leverage advances in biomedical Affirmation Technology develop integrated systems to enhance our ability to prevent and respond to future outbreaks before they become national or global epidemics. Thank you for the opportunity to testify before he you and i look forward to answering your questions. Sully thank you and mr. Perry you are recognized for five minutes. Sammy chairman foster Ranking Member loudermilk and members of the task force thank you for inviting me to testify on this extremely important issue affecting millions across the country. The covid19 pandemic will continue to take significantly more lives approximately 130,000 this article aimed at the United States government does not invest in tools that will combat the spread of the virus including strategies that dismantle Structural Racism. According to an analysis published life at the news york times latinos or blacks or hispanic residents in the west are three times as likely to become infected as their white neighbor. Higher covid19 mortality rates among black and brown committees reflect the historic valuation disenfranchisement of their lives property and community. Structural racism is a preexisting condition that must be accounted for in her battle with the coronavirus. Its hard to kuechly the damage that the lack of coordinate a conference of federal response has cost families in terms of lives jobs and businesses. Those losses will be even more severe if theres there is not a sizable investment infection tek wearing mandate medical supply Chain Coordination extended. Leave supplemental employment insurance and Contact Tracing. However the universal application of these preventative tools wont eradicate the problem of housing poverty limited Job Opportunities and other conditions of Structural Racism that underlie health care neck with ease. My written testimony presented three general concerns regarding Artificial Intelligence and Contact Tracing as it pertains to Structural Racism and racial bias. First contact Contact Tracing and exposure notification are not necessarily remedies. Contact tracing and other Public Health tools are not neutral. You can exacerbate or mitigate the impact of Structural Racism. A second concern picking up on my testimony revolves around representation. Contact tracing should include the people from the committee that had been excluded from other systems that generate that are help the knock it economic outcomes written the tech tools that are developed to the Contact Tracers higher ed black and brown people as the included in any effort to expand Contact Tracing. Manual Contact Tracers rely on the skills of interpersonal medication and empathy in order to build trust and interpret information. If we hire an army of to track the spread of the virus we should expect unequal or even negative results in black communities. Addition if we do not higher local black and brown people deserve those neighborhoods we exacerbate the racial wealth tax which serves as a barrier protection against infection. Hiring black and brown tracers offers an opportunity to add jobs to the neighborhoods that are experiencing higher levels of unemployment. Third ai tools hold a sustained rest that they do in other fields. Ai is only as good as the information of the programmers who design it and they are biased and ultimately lead to flaws in the technology and amplify biases in the real world. Tools must demand greater recruitment and investment in black and brown tech firms, rigorous reviews and testing for racial biases in more engaged and involvement from the local community. Consequently we need more Due Diligence and intellectual expiration before you deploy a technology. Systematic racism and discrimination are already embedded in our head health and Educational Developers must intensely build ai systems to get the technology is not going to generate outcomes that reflect the biases of the developer. As more black and brown people are exposed to these racial inequities more will die from covid. The poor live version of the Coronavirus Forces us to see our inherent connections in a way that her Public Policies have not always recognized. Individual recovery is contingent upon how much we collectively live by the principles of being all in this together. If an residents are the country citizens will be as well. If black latino or hispanic people suffer from the effects of laysha white people but being aware of our folder abilities is not the main problem. Track of racial inequality are. Andre thank you. Host thank you. In the members of the subcommittee for the portion of the testifying today too. It is an honor and privilege to be here today. Lets compare how to use ai and technology for this enemy. The National Weather service can analyze, for every day however is important that the it can be different in responding to the pandemic. People because of other innocent people. We need to real information from people that is why smart phone apps can mark. Even though this is a source of the problem. First, used by people with the apps. A second how to make sure that the apps are which people includes in third by open source and nonprofits. In third huawei may create as a National Pandemic Response Service. We have this National Phone and leverage it is a private. [inaudible]. Now i come to this question how ive been working much my life with the ai. And we been working with the privacy in the global ai. In Machine Learning, called peak learning, with ai and not accessing about raw identifiable data. In the wonderful techniques, and privacy that is going to be used in the u. S. Census of 2020. In march, our team, created one of the first smart phone apps calling mit faceboo and pretty d Foundation Nonprofit organization dedicated to Building Three industry standards, u. S. Nation and organizations rooted in our nonprofit is already building and Case Management apps, and dashboards. And frankly it is been a humbling experience to work on this complex challenges over the last few months. Based on our learnings so far, concerns and also presenting a foundation. Public Health Department manual solution digital apps for solutions. The should be officials, because the trust in Public Acceptance in excess acceptance of the digital apps. In the tracing problems would be solved cheaply. And they are working actively in this hybrid approach. By combining notification and guidance in Case Management. In which apps can augment on the Contact Tracing. The second, the requirements, ensure this Contact Tracing apps are very transparently ideally by nonprofits and other Public Utilities are open for scrutiny by the public. And obviously this app should be included are inclusive. And do not exclude those who dont have the latest technology. We are very proud to deploy google apple api and also to support robust solutions. I may continue to work with employers and schools in with the inclusion and innovation. Then finally, the National Dynamic Response Service with the smart phone app. We need a National Response to allow us to take my crew and macro of an analysis and production. Lets build a smart phone with solutions. In new ai that are in peoples homes. And we have learned is that we can truly create this with a knife. The social economic interactions between the governments, businesses and individuals. And even communities without creating a federal landscape. They show up on 150 million budget, modestly. And Greater Public partner ship. For that National Pandemic response pretty in the National Service at the same time, how it can help us be ready for a nasty flu season in the future. And for the Public Health. And be prepared for the next pandemic. In the need of a the augmentation of Contact Tracing apps really makes this app inclusive, opensource and trustworthy bills nonprofits. In response based on the data from this app. Thank you. Host will thank you and i will note recognize myself for five minutes for questions. You mentioned the necessity exposing adoption of Contact Tracing up. In order to maximize effects and this will make will have a root beer. And according to a survey conducted april, 32 percent of Financial Institutions, evaluating the use of Contact Tracing to help protect that route and force. To bring back workers to the offices of the next few months. How can that Contact Tracing effectively be put into their plans. Are there problems and making the use of Contact Tracing with a condition of employment. And in addition willis Contact Tracing offer benefits over for example performing frequent covid19 tests and Temperature Checks. I dont know whether i can speak about frequent checks would be doing better or worse but i do believe that Contact Tracing, would widely would help. And speaking about the problem, 40 percent of the uniform population, only 16 percent of exposures. We need a bigger percentage. We need 50 or 70 percent of adoption. One of the best ways to do that is to work with employers, universities, schools and populations that they feel a sense of Community Want to protect each other by installing this app. Its really a marketing challenge. I look to the situation where the ways app was deployed in cities. And how cancel their app. There isnt enough penetration in the community. These apps will not be successful. Having employers do it, i think is a valid way to increase the penetration. But not should be mandatory. It should just be strongly recommended. And if you dont get the exposures, that accompany i then become or have an outbreak might have to shut down again. I think that the where everybody is now very aware of what happens during a shutdown. And so preventing a shut down by keeping your community say, things are pretty strong motivation if we can communicate that cat message. Are there any thoughts from your perspective on this. Going to question about Temperature Checks versus testing. I would say that one of the challenges with the Temperature Check is that at least right now, 40 percent of transmissions occur in the a symptomatic state. That means a lot of times women transmissions where they dont even know theyre infected. So relying on things like that are really challenging in this particular infection. In terms of trying to understand, maybe even who you have been in contact with her who might be infected. I think that is something that we should think about as we think about these types of applications. Thank you. In the testimony if you have been working on how to create Machine Learning methods to build ai out using the raw data. Sales like encryption that we have no previous hearing. To me is just a fascinating technology. Payment simple question about this can work in the number of contacts are small for example youre by yourself all day for one whole week, and you go out and you meet one person and then you get notified that you have been exposed. You very much no which one person that is. So what are the limits to the privacy preserving techniques that may be important for people to know about. Audrey given your background in six i would love to have a conversation about encryption with you. But it to the question of privacy. First of all think about they have different, privacies. They are very different. Public health scenario, actually, we only get about confidentiality pretty not much about privacy because eventually you do have to be to doctor. Is not like i think the challenge that if you may only one person you would know who that person is. Thats the classic example their goal is to serve the Public Health purpose as well. In that sense, although exposure, it has some purpose, what youve got exposed, you can challenge this for Public Health. His understanding the context of that encounter. Host i will attempt to keep myself fairly. Thank you mr. Chairman. Its been very interesting information that we viewed so far. My first question is that i do appreciate your data privacy and security when it comes to Contact Tracing. And coming from an it background, Bluetooth Technology and your cooperation. With different businesses. I think it has a unique approach. It may have some validity there. But if we work to implement a federal Contract Tracing system. How would you be able to ensure to the citizens that youre able to know exactly what data is going to be used for likeness and who has access to that data and how it will be is pretty think those are three critical areas that you going to get buyin from the general public, get their confidence in this that they do need to know those three things. Exactly what data will be collected. And hell have access to it and will it be used. Explaining it to your user and how it will be used to predict the data that is been collected in the bluetooth part of it, that data is random and completely start of the phone. Until the user who is infected ops and uploading the numbers to the server. Some part of the second opt in. So from a control perspective, you prettier control the hands of the user. Nothings going to be pulled out from underneath them for it is always going to be in their control. I think that is a very strong message. And as far as what happens when you get application pretty other innovation in the technology is the notification determination is made entirely on the phone. Then the communication of what message is sent to the user, is provided by the country and so you have the opportunity to communicate to expose the user, here are the things that you should use. We dont know who and took a type of that users until they opted by calling in. To that Contact Tracing team. In these inbound calls are getting much easier to handle because the Contact Tracing ahead of time, these will be inbound calls they will be users who are interested in learning more about what the exposure rate is. Understanding the situation. For instance, i may have tested positive. I have this app. I go to a store and i am wearing my mast and i am doing everything. So if someone else gets near me, my phone captures their number . And then choose whether to upload that scenario or does it automatically notify the person that hey, you just got in contact. Your close oximetry to somebody who has its. So the general system is that if you test positive, you are staying at home. In the goal though is that for two weeks of data prior to you testing positive, your phone has been broadcasting these random numbers and has been collecting the data on your own phone as well. And on the day that you test positive, the Contact Tracing team cost over the phone talk about your positive test. They were notified. This is off for the standard process pretty they ask you to upload your data and give you a unique one time password to upload the data into a cloud. In the data is uploaded and a random number. No identifying information at all. And at that time, all of the other phones dont let the data and see if the last two weeks they were near you. And if they are, they can ask mosher notification rated and it likely means they were exposed to have to call the Contact Number to learn more. So the only numbers that are uploaded numbers of people that are using the app oral numbers. Only numbers that are uploaded are infected person if they were using the app in the last two weeks. Bangmac so they dont have to be using it so does that create a presence where the person with the app is in determining if the information lets say, if i was around someone who had been infected and got tested. And that person is determining if my phone number will be uploaded. No. The data that you uploaded is not anybody elses data. The infected person goes to those random numbers. It is only your information. Everybody else compares whether they ever saw your number in the phone. So again, only if each of the parties is participating in the app. If it is not used, does not have the app installed, theyre not one of the situation. They will get notified if there infected, is nothing for them to upload. Im happy to have these questions answered pretty thank you for that. Clan now like to recognize the gentleman from california. Youre muted. Thank you for much. With use of technology, including digital Contact Tracing and dealing with various social distancing protocols. You reminded us doing research theyve already socially distant and segregated. [inaudible]. [inaudible]. Limited medical facilities, often unsafe living areas. Polluted neighborhoods. In addition, a response to the pandemic right make sure that our response is not potentially structural in equity. What considerations should digital Contract Tracing take to ensure that the Community Center served well by the base solutions, do you have other suggestions on how technology can be utilized in Coronavirus Crisis response winter communities of color on opt for the disadvantage including with respect to their ability. A couple of responses that were number on whenever we havea crisis, we have the opportunity to build capacity in areas that we dont have a current currently. And a technology is that they have not been tested, or created by people of color leading to all kinds of caps. It is clear we do needed black communities, levels of technology because we are disproportionately impacted. The problem is the black people in particular event people are caught between a rock and hard place. When they do find out they may have been exposed, were disproportionately in jobs and occupations that we cannot take off two weeks of work. They were unable to be socially distance for periods of time. As i indicated in my written testimony, we see how intergenerational housing and concentrations in cities like new orleans, detroit, birmingham, all of these places were black people are. We know that there will be exposure because of the underlying conditions. This leading to the rapid spread of the virus. For me, im looking at this from a structural perspective. Yes we still need to maximize manual tracing new technological tools to help them along pretty manual tracing also gives us Job Opportunities and improves the quality of the tracing mechanism. Theres a lot to be gained regarding the manual tracing. I want to emphasize that we are also mentally investing in tech companies, firms, innovation that we need to use this as an opportunity to build the welcome to build capacity and build opportunity in black communities because that is the reason why we see rapid spread in black communities. For me, it is not to say it is too late to Deploy Technology in a way that makes it for a black community but it is to say, that if we dont advance manual tracing, and we dont build capacity, and next inevitable crises will be right back in the same situation we are in today. And where technology will probably not have one that we cant respond to technology in a way that alerts they want to sue into, but we dont build capacity in areas we need to build. Thank you very much. I yelled back. And a rep. From North Carolina is recognized for five minutes. This is fascinating. Very timely pretty sweet see nancy several countries as a means to combat the spread of covid19. Is there any credible evidence of these methods that have a Practical Impact on mitigating the spread of the disease. This whole Contact Tracing, we give know that it does work for small outbreaks social distance household the weeken. [inaudible]. Good news in a matter of weeks. An estate was explained of the technologies of the employees, and the apis, go to be out there in many ways. I think my assumption is that if we use the bottomup solutions, that would be like hiking. Contact tracing with manual, to attract the best we could predict but with people interacting with people, we need a bottomup solution as well. And people they were could beat spreading it to others. An expected individuals are willing to go into the system. Then we can start combining the topdown and and bottom up approach. And we can do that, i dont see any reason why the candidate. We have 70 percent in the age group of 18 64 is 90 percent of penetration. In up to 70 percent of the world and the Contact Tracing would be offloaded to people who have phones. Pseudo thank you. And continuing on with you professor. These Contact Tracing, dilemma, digital Contact Tracing involves surveillance that can make a lot of people uncomfortable especially given the adult involved in a Large Technology company. And they have spotty records on privacy. What steps are developers taking to its work these privacy concerns are being addressed. I know you mentioned earlier, the bluetooth, google, protocols, and standards. Its one see what is being done to address these privacy concerns. Very good question. I think the apple google you bluetooth is a fantastic doublet. Im glad, they should not be in the business of crating solutions that can interfere with their forprofit business. And as good as the particles is, if another Technology Company cut tricia to go with a solution which is already there, even if the x closure is not threatened. It might be a race. So that company conflict with orientation than apple and google and foundation makeup. So we believe the big we can make it tryst with her. Should be an open source prayed for everybody can collaborate. And for no other nonprofit businesses. If we do then create a National Grid of the south. So you want to see a mushrooming of the separated and the spanish that we can believe that we can all Work Together and take you to the National Grid. That will also be part of this national in the. Thank you pretty so i have been supported are supportive of a robust federal Data Privacy Center to replace safe regulations rated some of the inclination National Standards be beneficials this people he just talked about. Would be beneficial to them in the consumers like to try to make their own processes. Definitely. I think that is good. Just to be sure we have to go will beyond these which are more about confidentiality and it would level above that, privacy the means that even the app companies, dont know anything about the user. Very good. But a few seconds left. But it will yield back. The chair that will not recognize the chairwoman from thank you. I would love to hear from the doctor. We have globally, such a wide branch of how Contact Tracing is being done. And by counties and states and countries. And people move across borders. But there is challenges at the highest level. If he had to came come here tomorrow. Coming from a epidemiological perspective. What would it do to contact the Contact Tracing strategy. Is one of the question. Thank you very much. I have written testimony into my own testimony. I really do think that we need a National Tran to help coordinate this entire response. And it is going back to Contact Tracing. I think when it comes to Contact Tracing, the important thing was to be having some sort of plan for that. And to the state and local governments. As we have all talked about especially in an epidemic with this, when you sent, every contact, there is about two 25 contact the need to be traced. Thats just not something that a conductor superduper it is important that we rely on our technologies to be able to do the contact chasers are doing. I think its important that its a coordinated effort between our local and state and federal governments. While leveraging on technology. Thank you. All of the apps that we are talking about developing, are essentially worth looking. Going to know who you were in contact with. Void go back if you had a positive test go back to the historical record. But in the context of Artificial Intelligence, some of the really cool things we do with ai right now the traditions. Whether it is predicting where the traffic will be at 4 00 oclock today is again to downtown chicago. For the stuff that we spend a lot of time working on this committee predicting what topics would be surging owners would be a shortcircuit next week. Is there any benefit thinking about what could be done on the predictive level. These Contact Tracing tools. Could you start predicting that this is a high risk place to go. Mama should be going. Is anybody thinking has police purely backward looking apps. And so the peoples ambition. I think is a challenge right now, is to understand the path pretty well. So the Contact Tracing interviews where the Contact Tracing Team Interviews infected or exposed persons. With that person has been, what they have done, that is the kind of data that we would send to the Machine Learning. But right now that data is obviously silent with privacy issues and into county tools and safe tools that are not compatible with each other and is also not normalized. Certainly, earlier. I think it does need to be federal guidance on how we do things pretty dont think the federal government should on this problem. But i think there to declare leadership about here are the tools and processes that we recommend. And that the county still and then using that data and analysis that retains part privacy. Then we can start to generate and predict the models. And in the collection bar scale, this fee is for predictive things as you look at the university of washington model, they are using data including things like mobility reports and when different states and counties have implemented ort lockdowns or some of the other aspects. They are able to see the effect of different policies that are now predicting the state implements the master garment today, they can save this many lives. For example in kansas, male following mass mandate. We would save 250 lives by november 1st. That is the projection of the projection is made using data that is been collected over the last several months. Thank you. Thank you note we will not recognize the gentleman from indiana. Good afternoon everybody. Im really excited about the discussion we have had already on this panel. And i look forward to talking about in hearing more about it. My question is more in biological and epidemiological level, heres what i want to know. Given what we are today, what is the realistic success achievable success, look like in the United States three vaccine and avoid asking what it looks like post vaccine. Foot should we really are what is achievable for what we are given the number of infections where we are today. Thank you. Given what we are right now, were not a great place. We have 60000 new infections in the United States. I think one of the things that has been challenging with this particular infection in the United States is not we have what we like to call the system. Every municipality is doing something. And it makes things very challenging terms of trying to contain the outbreak. Were still having challenges with things overcoming challenges but five months ago. Testing is still a problem. Contact tracing still problem. And 14 he is still problem. So if we dont get those things fixed, were not going to get this outbreak in her control. We need to fix those things. So in terms of where the we are today and where we are going, went to work on really interventions that weve been advocating for. Could you be more specific place. Are we to the point given the number of infections that we have had, where we are basically managing down the number and that rate of infections in the Hospital Capacity systems until we get to the point of vaccines. Or is there given hope even more we are to bring infections to a grinding very slow small number. I trying to understand it. Another eb if the dermatological studies, managing infections down the managing Hospital Capacity until he vaccine and i tried to stop an outbreak all of in itself. So again, it is going to depend on how well we do these interventions. So we know they work. Events on how well we can get community to buy into that. In terms of how wealthy outbreak is contained. Once we have a vaccine, its not going to depend on just of the vaccine but also depend on how well we can get people to take the vaccine. Studies have shown that there is a lot of work to be done and getting people to pick up the vaccine present cant say that have vaccine this will be over. I think is right. And frankly listen indiana, this was happening out. Peoples desire to take significant steps based on covid1covid19 is declining, nt increasing. Given the fear that they come in march. We have not seen Significant Research for this outcome. Want to get onto the other questions. There is an obsession with a total number of infections since january. 2 million infections number. Thats why seems strange. Because they will care about our current symptomatic of communicable infections at the present point. What matters is how many people have this today, either symptomatic or a symptomatically of those who got in on 20th recovered memory 15. We tracking the right number in thinking about total number of cases since genesis be thinking of the number of infections per day and number of recoveries per day to better understand the evolution. I think all of those numbers are important. We need to understand the total number of infections. But we definitely need to understand what is going on a daytoday basis. So now particularly were not think number of a persons of positivity in a number a symptoms going up and thats really important. Also looking at what is going on the hospitals. Can you clearly tell me, what is the clinical definition of recover in this infection with covid19. Is it not showing symptoms. This recovered me. So according to the guidelines, no longer have symptoms. We cant, we can retreat you have recuperated more. Take. Thank you in the gentlewoman form North Carolina. Recognize for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chair and thank you to our witnesses today. According to a 2019 study, 81 percent of americans dont own smart phones. And it was put 25 percent in 2011 in the same city found that while hispanics of the smart phones, the roughly the same rate overall rated smart phone, significant life art low income americans, and communities of color have also been disproportionately impacted by the pandemic. And they are at greater risk of contracting the covid19 and a much higher likelihood of dying unable to recover. So what is the benefit of a voluntary of Contact Tracing system the most vulnerable atrisk populations are also the least likely to be able to engage in this technology. Is a very fair question. Some of the have asked the question, you have a non tech capability. And that the detection is what we really do need a phone preferablys a smart phone. To participate and we argue, that if we deploy these widely, infection overall will go down and there will be much less opportunity for anybody to get it so your question about where that second wave right now in Contact Tracing is going be very hard to solve the problems were seeing. And in many states it ramps up quite high. If we can get the disease down to a small the level, we can actually drive down, so theres little snow room for anybody this is Contact Tracing can really help with that. Things important to understand that to the prior question, the wearing a mask and greatly reduce the transmission. In biasing, and single abington can reduce from well above 12 below one and eventually, to cure the disease print is a mess, everybody can do. Im a strong believer we should be promoting mass more. So the data being collected and potentially analyzed by ai. What time of exposure and contact notification is there. So in the case of the specific google apple implementation, it is extremely private. There is no information exposed at all unless you are infected and unless you choose then to provide data to a service. Anyone that is not part of an analysis. The only date of the analyzes then talk to the Contact Tracers. What that interview yields as far as the number of contacts they have made and are they or what kind of symptoms are they showing. Just reiterate what everybody also said, better staffing. And we the people in the local community to work it is an empathetic communicative experience. And for that many people of the community. Its my thank you. Do you pursue a rest for misuse of them mask collection of health data on low income people of color in the future read and how important is the Data Collection. We should be free be prepared for negative impact we biasing the risk of using bias algorithms to healthcare. The use of medical algorithms steer patients away from getting higher level of care. And at twice the rate of the white defendants. So again, and i said earlier, in my verbal testimony, was the ai for Contact Tracing the same risk if you do not thoroughly that these products are going out. So we dont know necessarily but the way that i hedge thats not snowing is through inclusion. Youve got to bring in Contact Tracers as we mentioned. From the community because if you dont establish trust, these products will not work well. The more importantly but to invest in black and brown areas because the more sensitive the to the algorithms and function that often lead to that outcome. Thank you rated in the mitigation rate, the suppression goal rate of the testing in terms of the impounds, what does that do in terms of ramping pretty. That is my question. If. [inaudible]. So basically, there are different ways that we look at four when we are in different phases of the epidemic. We need to scale up testing a bit to make those rates. Thank you. Rep. From the Lone Star State, mr. Taylor is recognized for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman. I appreciate that predict i appreciate being here with all of you. I think this is an important conversation and i think this epidemic certainly brother to me, the importance of having consistency in her Vital Statistics county. We have had heads nodding. And in the state legislature and brought into congress, the became into problems getting data. We had different counties counting at different rates. And what we have done down and try to figure it out, we realize that one was doing it one way and another state was doing and avoid. So we started working with them. If you can believe it, 2020, there is not a federal natural way to collect Vital Statistics. And that in turn is leading to disparate answers in terms of the way localities, and then in the states are reporting and then we as policymakers are trying to figure out how i deploy assets pretty and because the data is collected differently might not really you have a problem. So maybe you will have one or maybe dont pretty slam working on a bipartisan basis with my colleague from florida to create more on the beginnings of a study in a prorated bill so we will see this later this month. But to come out with a study, and a National Standard for collection. Budgets share one issue that we can take it home to the county right there, we were not counting, we are actually originally counting people who are positive as a covid19 is a case in louisville cant count it. And so i see you nodding and smiling. He may be of a reaction to what i am talking about. I will just say it, as a person working in the think tank. We need reliable data. And often we dont get that because of the lack of standards. I would fully support a Gun Legislation that led to standardizing with these vital records because without it, we really dont have the information to really address the problem well. I cannot really add much more. But we need to have this reporting period. As i said, at the same time data is available, only if it can be triangulated from different sources pretty just do the recognition, you dont know if its going right way. So if you do the bottom up, people participating maybe in some of the way. Then that data becomes more valuable. In another example at home, we originally if we had a husband and wife and the husband tested positive in the whitehead symptoms, we would is we would assume that they were covid19 positive. We wouldnt reported that way. And then were told by the state, that actually, start counting that person as a positive person and recorded his positive case of than my co. Finding cases because i took a bunch of people or previously not reported as a positive case. And again this is a decision that the county decision, is been overwritten by estate decision. So what i would like to see the consistency in the reporting of data. Im glad there are so many people nodding. And i spoke about this and they immediately understood. We need to have a National Standard so that my county is not guessing on what to do. Every county news which do its a standard. And the point youre making about the National Standard is not just for hindsight what happened in the past. But also the insights, what is going on right now and to the point of the prediction about the four sites as well. We need to have a triangulation of data. If you have had a National Service here, to look at not just where it came from, whats going on today but start predicting them. And they are valuable in different ways and responding to them in oldfashioned ways. Like numbers used a week ago a month, theyre not as useful as what you see a month or six months from now. Things that are applied to public a cold or this pandemic. Agreed the National Standard as soon as possible. Me i just one very brief, absolutely correct. This is an opportunity to us rally behind the data. If you want to get people involved in a very fast way, you have them participate in the collection. To really exercise the principles that we are all in this together. Sure, thank you and i yield back. Obvious my prerogative to point out that im also in the upcoming appropriations will be to once again had to have the house only repeal the ban on non identifier. This is simply a database key that would allow you to uniquely identify medical records. Which is a very important issue is very proud that we had a very strong bipartisan bill to repeal the band. Those in the house and of course the senate is with senate doubts which is nothing. And trip and im just claiming that for members and its really important starting point for getting consistent National Records and get people to identify who this person was. And now the chair will recognize rep. Rcf of texas for five minutes. Also from the Lone Star State mr. Chairman. I am so sorry to have missed that. Thank you for this very important hearing. Its at such a critical time. And some people have noted, that what we need to do today but in terms of standards and requirements of guidance. So thank you for this. I wanted to start by asking only sure actually that i understood that you responded to the Ranking Member on this question. What information, everybody is using the f for people youre talking to correct pretty. That is start. Only data from participants who have installed the app will have their data recorded in the phones or in the cases of the infected person. If they dont have the app installed, they are completely outside of the system. Said this to work, everybody has to wear a mask and everybody has to wear an app. I would really like to have that happen. Avril really market that. Now i want switch to the good doctor. It is just been so hard to get everybody to rms. All my colleagues, refused wear a mask. It is become politicized. How are we going to convince people to sign up for an apple and weve not been able to convince them to rms. That is really the reality. I think first of all we have to let that were talking about human life. And secondly i think that we really need to be clear about the privacy and safety that will will have when it comes to using this app. They got supported. As you have seen another place that i have been able to successfully contain the covid19. One of the things is also having good trust with not just the people who are doing the work and also in terms of the government and that people who are working on this. I think its all really important. One of the things that is extremely important that we need to continue to work on his engagement. So engagement is going to be imported. Trust will be imparted. Making sure that we protect the polls privacy is going to be important. In getting people to update in these types of things. In another question related to that. Ive instructed that you have used the word several times that it should be a nonprofit. For that it should be available in closely in all communities. Tell me about that. Why would you suggest needs to be worked out that would be distributed to nonprofit run the forprofit. We have good companies, i work for facebook for two years. I was not able to muster. Companies have great intentions but some use the data and ways in you may not realize that the every time you go i realize that pretty night just want to hear you focus on this particular app. Do think it is critical. If the distribution of sorts to a nonprofit. Yes exactly pretty. I dont get it. It should be done by a nonprofit. And just like public facilities, they should be audited at any time. In trust for the matter. And the challenge is is not been done by nonprofit, is been done by profit. And even if the notification act, can release the data from that app, and use that, they could be tempted to use that another ways. So the same company has two apps. One is used for Contact Tracing witches supposedly private in another app, just in the hills, those two apps can create a Bigger Picture of the user so we think that nonprofit can be me connected to collaboration and make it through the being audited. They should be the only ones. In us just to and can be the people who are you still doing the Community Health work. Maybe those in my neighborhood pretty. Exactly. They imparted part of that is not just how the app works right now. But as you also, by the admission, getting the medications this just beginning. The Case Management, the interviews in the monitoring is the foundation. In a hybrid approach, we can also do lower for the the Contact Tracing through the app. And in the rest of the process can be done with the Contact Tracing pretty. I see i have another time. All submitted by the question in writing. Thank you. And now recognizing rep. From the buckeye state, mr. Gonzales rated for five minutes of questioning. Thank you for recognizing the great buckeye state. Thank you for this important hearing. Very interesting topic certainly one of the girl still trying to wrestle with. I want to start my questions wit. It is a marketing challengei would argue is an enormous marketing challenge that asking them Everyday Americans to trust entities the government has naturally, naturally we dont trust and for good reason unfortunately. And so my first question is, inc. You have sort of alluded to it but what is the amount of adoption that you could get and still have an impact. I do believe you can get anywhere near perfect. Not even a hundred percent. The more just not going to often. Tell me a little bit about that place. So it was perfect, at 90 percent. So in that category, even if we were perfect, we would only discover anyone percent of exposures because both parties have to have it installed. So this problem is a big increase of 40 percent give you 16 percent of exposure. I am hoping for 50 60 percent where we discover 25 36 percent of exposure and thus become the inbound phone calls. As far as how to do this, i think we really need to get communities, whether it is the official agency that publishes the app, many every Town University and church in synagogues, to convince the members to dissipate. Because the density of installed base, the works. If you could get 80 percent of the University Communities to install this app, the networks within the community and all of the exposures of the universities will be discovered much more quickly. The ones that happen, maybe as much pretty but i think there is an opportunity for individual communities to bring their represented convince them to install the upgraded really need to this to be like wearing masks, it should be a Community Response pretty. It will be community by community. I can just tell you that my most rural communities, theyre not going to do this. I dont blame them frankly. They different strategy would probably make sense. I want to shift now. You mentioned something that i think is really important. Talk about who is most vulnerable here. My fear from the beginning with this virus is that it would accentuate inequalities. I think it has. It has shined the light on the fact that those who are most vulnerable for having the worst outcomes with the virus think. When i think about how we can get ahead of that as the outbreak continues, how we protect art low income wage workers or minority populations and those who cant socially this is pretty either at work or in the home. Im hispanic, my family was born in cuba. This beautiful lady over here my shoulder was living with us basically until she passed away. And so my multigenerational households that do not distance as well. And so despite nature of the living conditions. Within in mind, one thing that i have started to work on his to drop pearson, would be a Great Program which would allow hotels on a voluntary basis to convert to the covid19 housing places. So that if you been get the virus, you cannot distance a domain you have an option to checking into a hotel which would be picked up by the government. And so, just as a general concept, i would love to get your thoughts on that rated as a way to help our communities who cant distance for a variety of reasons. Giving them an option that if the picnipick up the virus and f quarantine for away that is safe and was in fact the whole family. As we mentioned that Contact Tracing must be paired with other social support. They are not, you really minimizing the impact. So i agree that there are couple of areas that are critical, we need a housing response and we need an employer and an employer response. Without objection all legislators have five legislat to days to give the chai inclusion in the record. Ive wri and question material record to the ema address that has been provided to the staff. This hearing is now adjourned. Speci tvfocus on book pulitzer winning historia boehner looks at the 13th, 14th and 15th amendme the u. S. T constitu during the reconstruction era. In later saidon College Southern Political Economic ideologies prevailed in the American West follg the civil war. Enjoy bo and overight the week cspan2. Binge wa thisbook tv summer a settle in and watc several hours of your favorite authors. Saturday featuring commenta author and Founder National review leave f buckley author of over 50 books fromuding up liberali high in the reaganit new. On satur we july 18 as feature nonfiction books an authors every weekend coming up this weekend sunday a eastern on after words. Author, former College President and political commenta what heines calls th face of socialis unitede states. And whet becoming part of political culture in his book then at 10 00 p. M. Eastern doctor Ezekiel Emmanuel formal special advisor andealth policy the dire office ofe manageme budget during the obam Administration Says which co worldsthe best healthcare . Watch bo this on cspan2 weekend. Sunday night with q a journali smithn geiger talks ab history of voting i United States and some of the issues surround in voting today her book forank you voting. The 2 had acision has massive votingon rights a isnt any voting r advocate or attorney that doesnt see it as a ground shaking impacts. So while stillurse its illegal, not federal oversigh based on discrimi the kind of stopgap voting changes. Select w night atay 8 00 p. M eastern on cspans q a. Up ne onto discussion foreign formerwith deputy s of state, he is currently a chief foren policy a to former vice presiden joe bidens presiden campaign. This dis hudson but the institut held by videoconference. Hello lookhow does it for the institute dialogue Foreign Policy series. I am wal my mead it is pleasure today joined the chief foreign