Transcripts For CSPAN2 FAA Administrator Stephen Dickson Testifies On Plane Safety 20240712

Rose still who tragically died on Ethiopian Airlines flight 302 and thank them for participating. March 10th marked the 1year anniversary of the crash of Ethiopian Airlines flight 302 which was preceded by the loss of land near flight 602. The aircraft involved in both accidents was the boeing 737 max. Our deepest sympathies go to the families of those loved ones who are among the 346 lost in these crashes. Since the Ethiopian Airlines crash the committee has heard from many whistleblowers at boeing and in the Aviation Industry. It is increasingly clear from the investigation that the faa has the number of serious problems, the investigation staff of dozens of witnesses, thousands of documents and emails who have been diligent in pursuit of these facts no matter where they lead. However, i must express my profound frustration with the agencys lack of response to most of my requests dating back to last april, documents that stem from whistleblower disclosures. On april 2nd, 2019, i sent then acting administrator daniel elwell, a letter requesting information about training and certification of the faa aviation safety following responses to my initial request i sent a followup letter from july 30 first 2019 to acting administrator requesting Additional Information of 65 specific items. These 65 specific ideas included such serious matters as allegations of whistleblower retaliation, senior faa managers. We have received complete responses for 10 of those, partial responses, we have not received any response to over half of these requests. Given the subject matter of today, 12 of the requests faa has not responded to. Attain directly to the 737 max certification. To todays subject matter. On august 1st, 2019, Committee Staff department of Transportation Council to identify which item of the requests each production was responsive to. Whether it represented a complete response, this has been reiterated several times when not consistently followed. The committee made every effort to aid the document reduction. Back in september of 2019 the Committee Staff sent a prioritized list of ten of the most significant requests. On december 18th, 2019, over the course of nine months, completed responses to two prioritize requests, partial responses to six and no response to two of the top ten items, and during a short period of time, the agency provided response but did not include a specific email we were pursuing. Additional narrowing to a specific date was required for specific emails. On july 30 first 2019. On june 17th, weve not received any documents since april 20 seventh this year. Lack of timely responses to our document request forced the Committee Staff to seek faa staff interviews, in 2019, the dot response handling the interview request has been very slow. And we 7 months our Investigations Team has been able to interview only four faa staff members, of the 21 we requested to interview. Then came a virus, recognizing the covid19 impact on april 6th, 2020, Committee Staff requested to move forward with brief written interrogatories of multiple faa employees to expedite gathering relevant information, with minimum impact involve parties. A lot of dot staff did not provide a definitive answer on the feasibility of written interrogatories until april 30th almost a month later. When they stated in person or virtual interviews were preferred. On may 5th as a result of dot rejecting the interrogatory approach the Committee Staff requested to interview the next employee. On may 11th dot staff stated they were working to make the next interview we available. It was may 5th, as of june 17th, 2020, Committee Staff has not heard back on when this interview would take place. Administrator dickson in our telephone conversation last thursday, i raised a number of these matters. You promised your team would work with the staff quickly to get back on track. I am extremely disappointed weve not made significant progress, staff followed up immediately, what we identified. No attempt was made to set up the meeting, staff reiterated the request and provided a comprehensive list of outstanding document and interview requests. The team asked to schedule a call on monday which was denied. The team offered to meet this thursday tomorrow. The entire purpose, the large purpose of the meeting, not wait until after its conclusion. It is my understanding the teams did speak last night after my staff insisted on the time of the call, no progress was made on resulting the outstanding issues. The nonresponsiveness shows at best unwillingness to cooperate in conventional oversight. You deliberately attempted to keep us in the dark. By that i mean our investigation staff, committee and me. It is hard not to characterize our relationship during this entire process as being adversarial on the part of the faa. Administrator dickson, i hold you responsible for this as head of the agency. During your confirmation hearing i ask this question as we ask all nominees, quote, if confirmed would you pledge to work collaboratively with this committee to provide thorough and timely responses . You answered yes as we require nominees to do. Lack of cooperation calls into question the pledge. We are not embarking on a fishing expedition. Request for documents and interviews, specific content and reasonable in scope. I can only assume the agency stonewalling of my investigation suggests discomfort for what might ultimately be revealed. I expect to receive an explanation for failure to comply with the committees request was part of the committees investigation involves the 737 max was following the Ethiopian Airlines crash the faa grounded the 737 max airplanes. A year later the plane is still not clear to return to passenger service. The faa, boeing, and International Regulation involved in the Research Process should take whatever time is needed to get recertification right. As the recertification continues, the number of reviews including this committees investigation have raised concerns how the max was designed and certified, how pilots were treated and the nature of the nature between faa and boeing, the faa needs to hold accountable everyone at the agency or boeing who broke the rules or fell short of meeting expectations. Last october this committee was the first on capitol hill to convene an oversight hearing with boeing leadership. Today we hear from administrative dickson on what happened during the original certification process, steps the agency has taken before returning to safe flight and how the agency helps prevent future tragedies. The max recertification is a critical component of rebuilding public and International Trust in the faa, the unquestioned Gold Standard with regard to aviation safety. Congress has an Important Role to play for confidence on the agency. And the department of transportation. They introduced legislation, to improve aviation safety. It creates the new requirement for manufacture safety. And creates new emphasis, and protection for whistleblowers. This monday, Ranking Member staff requested mister stu mo to testify. In state of the lateness of this request we were able to accommodate such a request by adding a second panel. I look forward to a detailed discussion of the faa aircraft certification process. So these products these tragedies do not happen. I expect an explanation of the agencys unwillingness to respond to the committees request, i recognize my friend and colleague in drinking a member senator cantwell for Opening Statement. I want to say as Ranking Member, the information requests to get the faa to comply with the majority of the requesting. I want to take a moment to recognize the families that lost loved ones in the Ethiopian Airlines headliner tragedy, i cant imagine the loss of life and pain, appreciate your vigilance, who often attend our hearings and comment on Safety Measures before the committee. It cant be easy to continue that role but thank you for doing it. All the voices in these efforts to make our skies safer are important. I look forward to hearing the testimony of Michael Stumo, we have to get this right for his daughter and the 346 victims of those crashes. Todays discussion is about leadership, restoring americas leadership in aviation safety. Safety his job one. Job one in critical sector that employs 2. 5 million people, 150,000 in the state of washington, safety is job one, it involves so many lives. The leadership path begins with the faa and administrator dixon, we appreciate your efforts to build capacity to improve safety in response to these two accidents have been undertaken. Numerous reports issued since the accident and the faa response to a number of those investigations, seems a rigid acceptance of the status quo than the needed changes we want to see at the faa. No matter what the structure of the faa it must be clear, it is an independent agency with oversight and certification. We need to have the best workforce which i believe we do in the northwest but we must have experts and investigators qualified and technically trained at the faa to oversee in a sufficient manner, the compliance process. A lot of discussion about wall street and the approach to aviation, value engineering. I want to tell you something about the northwest. The pride of the northwest is about innovation and solid engineering and solid engineering advancements, not about doing things on the quick but doing things deliberately, getting safety right. I want to see a certification process, who are calling out safety issues. Backing up those engineers on the ground for calling out safety concerns at the earliest phases of the process, not at the end and certainly not after certification. The system dates back to 1958, can be traced to 1927 when private doctors conduct pilot Health Checks in the are not expressed of the purpose of commerce. It was the faas action taking authority in the delegation, approval that started in 2005 under the ob a system, the engineers acting on behalf of of the faa, these lines of oversight and communication were fragmented. I believe and i think the chairman believes as well, we need a system of certification, hardworking engineers and engineering safety driving the certification process, not the other way around. We cant have certification that has been grounded because of unsafe features, technical review by the International Safety authority, technical review chatter identified a number of problems with the faa oversight specifically is a need for a more holistic review and the fact that engineering expertise needed to have open Communication Systems and the technology, Technical Expertise level that needed to be there. I hope we will hear about what the faa needs to be reformed in this program, what reforms of those suggested by chairman wicker and myself do you support . I want to thank chairman wicker and his team and my team for working so collaboratively with us in their hard work in introducing this legislation that the chairman just mentioned. I believe it does fundamentally change the way the faa oversees the certification of large commercial aircraft. Specifically, how we will revamp the oda and make sure the faa stays in the driver seat of certification. Under our bill, the faa will once again be responsible for directly appointing and approving those tasked with carrying out the certification on behalf of the administrator. In addition the faa will assign safety advisors to closely monitor the performance of these designees and we also create a new whistleblower protection to fortify the channels of communication and reporting safety. Critically our bill will end any semblance, giving additional authority, and a specific provision. It requires implementation of the ntsb recommendation, Safety Management systems for aircraft manufacturers. It includes issues of multiple flight alerts, for Pilot Training. I think senator duckworth for working with this legislation. The faa must keep pace with the skills and the technical capacity to handle an increasingly complex aircraft technology. Automation help safety, and command and alert, with seconds to respond. With tween Human Technology and operational environment is becoming more critical to safety in aviation. And the center of excellence in Human Factors, the faa office, to make sure those inspectors, to keep the expertise necessary to do the oversight. We need science and technical, with technology changing, building skills is important and i want to thank senator more and for introducing the Civil Aviation authority and building capacity act which will increase global pilot standards to improve Pilot Training, the United States needs to be loud and clear that we want to see strong airman ship. That is to say a pilot needs to fly the plane without the automation and i hope we and you will help lead that effort on an international basis. We need a strong aviation workforce for the future. That is why i partner with senator blunt with the National Grand fellowship aerospace fellowship for the future act. We cannot have that race for competition drive us away from a solid safety certification regime. The solution to that is to hire and retain the best Safety Experts we can find. I look forward to finding a way to improve the process. I thank chairman wicker for his leadership on the bill we just introduced and thank him for his focus on this issue. We need to hold manufacturers for Safety Standards through the process. I look forward to continuing to work with them on that. We need to have certain design features that are compliant with the airworthiness standards. No one wants to see a process where at the end of the process it is not clear the data indicates. And i have many questions about this. Thank you for addressing these issues. Thank you for being here and i look forward to hearing those witnesses. Thank you, mister chairman. Many of the statements made, in my Opening Statement. The investigating staff began this effort. July 30 first last year, we have received no response to the items. After we narrowed down the request significantly. We will have followup questions. Thank you, members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me. You have an Opening Statement. I neglected that step, please proceed. Thank you for inviting me to speak with you about the faa oversight of oversight certification and provides with an update on the 737 max. First i want to assure the families of those who lost their lives in the Ethiopian Airlines and lion air accidents that you and your loved ones are foremost in our thoughts. I think of you every day and it is good to see michael and the other family members with us this morning. The Lessons Learned from these accidents will lead to increased safety worldwide. Our. Is not only in words but the implementation of tangible and lasting improvements that will result from the observations of recommendations received for many review bodies including this committee. Before i turn to folks at the hearing, i want to address the challenges the Aviation Industry has faced in the Ongoing Public Health emergency. Aviation employs worked diligently these past months despite risks to themselves to safely transport passengers and muchneeded supplies. Now that traveler demand is beginning to return the faa fully support and strongly encourages the industrys adoption of precautions to protect employee and passenger health. The centers for Disease Control and prevention as well as international Public Health agencies advise face coverings are especially important to situations where social distancing is not feasible. Secretary chow in the department of transportation have been clear that air passengers should wear face coverings to protect themselves and those around them. We expect the traveling public to follow airline Public Health policies. As we move through phases of reopening we will apply our aviation expertise to lead efforts with other federal agencies, industry and International Partners to address Public Health risks in the air transportation system. With respect aircraft certification and our evaluation of the 737 max will return to service the faa continues to follow a thorough process guided by a datadriven methodical review of boeings proposed modifications. In the us and returned to Service Decision will rest solely on the faas analysis of boeings work in these areas and continue to provide assistance and work closely with International Counterparts as they make their own evaluations. As the aircraft resumes passenger flights it will be because safety issues who have been addressed in pilots around the world receive the training they need to operate the aircraft. Before that happens the faa must conduct a certification flight test and complete a Pilot Training assessment by joint operations Evaluation Board or joa b which includes faa and International Partners and line pilots from us and foreign air carriers. Once that assessment is complete the faas boeing 737 flight standardization board will issue a public report addressing the findings. Additionally the faa and multi agency technically advisor board review our final design documentation. The last steps to approve each us carriers pruning training program, for the International Community and publishing airworthiness director advising operators required corrective actions. As i said many times i will not sign off on this aircraft until all faa technical reviews are completed. I intend to pilot the aircraft myself before the faa makes a decision. Beyond the max, improving margin of safety for the industry globally, will ultimately be much broader. The faa recently provided the committee with its action plan, the special committee to review the aircraft certification. And the recommendations from the special committee, the ntsb, Indonesian National Transportation Safety committee and faas own findings. Beyond certification the faa is tackling safety issues not only the United States but internationally as well. We are prepared to take the lead in the new phase of worldwide safety. We presented a working paper last year on Pilot Training and automation dependency. This material was recently added into a proposal in the formation of personnel training and licensing panel. Our action plan focuses on scenarios for aviation safety including Safety Management systems, data and innovation and we aligned our budget request to support this activity. We are asking to recruit additional specialized employees such as Human Factors expert in Software Engineers and invest additional money to bolster improvements to successful information sharing programs. I have said many times that safety is a journey, not a destination. We must never allow ourselves to become complacent. Always we must keep in mind passengers and their loved ones for whom we work. That concludes the statement. Thank you very much, mister administrator. Lets go ahead and jump the gun a few moments ago. Senator cantwell and i normally reserve our opening remarks to five minutes. The tone of my remarks, people would recognize, not really our style but i hope you understand, mister administrator the very serious way that i see the lack of response from your agency and i will certainly give you an opportunity to respond to my complaints in my Opening Statement, and to the ones i mentioned to you personally over the phone, my Investigative Team began their work july 30 first and received no response to over half of the items. Do you view this as acceptable and can you explain what has happened . In this regard . I always appreciate the opportunity for dialogue. As mentioned in our conversation last thursday and our Oversight Team had connected with your staff last night and i believe that will put us in position to make progress. To the oversight process, this is an important matter for you, you have made that clear, you made it doubly clear this morning. I appreciate that. I want you to know it is important to the agency and the responsibility i take very seriously. I believe it is inaccurate to portray the agency as unresponsive. We have provided responses in 7 major subject areas in the july request, there is still ongoing work and i will just point out the we have a number of investigations underway, already supporting the oig, in tsb, and others, some of the information requests implicate matters in those investigations. We dont want to prejudice the outcome of those. We are going to redouble our efforts. I hear your frustration and that is not okay with me. That is not where we want to be. I am trying to promote a culture within the agency, and really with all our stakeholders, of transparency and openness and this is an opportunity for us to do that. I look forward to continuing to work with you to raise the bar on aviation safety in the us and globally. I would reiterate the climate in your agency with regard to the requests for information and documents from this committee and our staff has been most unsatisfactory. For example, we ask for copies of emails between two parties and asked to make that more specific and then we pinpoint the very day and time of the email, the response from employees at faa has been a reluctance to supply that. We have an important responsibility taxpayers. This is a part of our constitutional responsibility to provide oversight and to me there is no excuse for that. Let me make this suggestion to you, mister administrator. It would seem to be beneficial if you could name one specific senior person under your supervision to be the contact with our staff directors on this matter. This person would be responsible for making sure the agency provided satisfactory responses be reported to you, staff director is reported to me and at least there would be a direct conduit of information and request directly from the senior staff person to the administrator. Would you be willing to agree to that based on my frustration . We will set up a process to have more Dynamic Communications as you suggest. Im making a specific suggestion to you and you are not willing to accept that at this point. Mister chairman, we will agree to that. I appreciate it. Senator cantwell. Administrator dickson, i would like to ask several questions to get you on the record on changes we would like to see at the faa on the legislation we proposed that need to be addressed beyond the legislation so if you could help me with yes and now that would be helpful. It aircraft manufacturers be accountable compliance is designed data submitted to the faa approval, yes or no . Yes. Do you believe this accountability should exist throughout the certification process and not just at the end of the certification process when safety concerns are harder to address and designed are tougher to rework and correct . Without speaking to the specifics im not knowledgeable on some of the details you are referring to but i believe the holistic approach you refer to the Safety Management system would provide would produce that result. The answer is yes. Applicants must certify the data design comply with airworthiness standards. That is a good idea. Yes. If the faa received a report of noncompliance the faa should ensure corrective action is taken prior to issuing a certificate. Yes . Yes. If not compliance is discovered after an issue do you believe the manufacturer should be required to correct it for future production of aircraft . That is in the continuing operational safety realm and where the directive process provides for, yes. I have concerns that that is not what has taken place in the past and it is good to hear that that is what you think should take place now. I think the end result of aircraft certification process, the faa approval, the approval of the Type Certificate, we want to make sure as we go through this process, one of the failures of the 737 max which is just unacceptable, is that, we need to make sure that compliance and airworthiness requirements are met. Do you agree the compliance of aircraft certification is to achieve compliance . Yes. The faa must evaluate the design data is compliant with apples airworthiness standard . Yes. It is actually a higher bar than compliance, compliance with individuals does not necessarily produce a safe outcome and that is what we are trying to deal with. I grew from the holistic perspective but im trying to point out the process we have today between the beginning of the process on the Type Certificate and the final airworthiness approval, in the max situation didnt catch the problems and certainly had information, that is why the data on your questions and answers to that are so important and hopefully that will help us in moving forward on this legislation. If i could ask about the bill senator wicker and i introduced coming in order to raise the bar the faa should be directly appointing these oda members . Without commenting specifically on the bill i think we need to take a Systems Approach and have strong oversight of the oda. We already approved im not as genteel as the chairman who resides on gentle approaches that exist and are perfected. I am a little more blunt. I dont want to be stonewalled here. Do you believe the faa should retain and appoint these individuals and oversee them . It is not we approved their qualifications and their background, the individual selection is not something i believe would add to the safety of the process but it is something we are anxious to work with the committee on and see if there is a way to add that in. Mister dixon, it is hard to view through the lens here through this gentleman but this is the very point. We need an independent faa. We need the lines of communication between these whistleblowers or whoever it is on the ground who says this is a problem. He needs to be backed up by the faa but if you dont have a direct line to that employee and approve them in the final and dont oversee his work and dont have the right expertise in the faa he will not be backed up by you. Could not agree more. Thank you. Senator blunt. Thank you, chairman. On the topic of just being responsive. Im sure you know this is really a concern to every member of the committee and you have heard that clearly today. I hope the process you and the chairman have agreed to produce a different result, but often the request, mister administrator, not that hard to respond to and agencies continue to create problems for themselves and difficulties for us, not responding with information you have as opposed to analyzing whether you should respond to that request. There is virtually never a question you will be required to respond or you should respond or that the law requires you to respond or that when you testify as along with many others at your confirmation hearing you agree to always respond and always respond quickly if that question is not asked at a confirmation hearing it is an oversight and you heard some of that today. Im not sure you and colleagues around this department and many others can ever hear enough of that because it is a constant problem, almost always selfinflicted by an agencys refusal to take responsibly. Maybe your agreement to let that happen, really important. I will go a little over a little of what senator cantwell asked about but on the oda office, do you think the legislation introduced by the chairman and Ranking Member for additional oversight mechanisms would benefit the process of how oda personnel and procedures are approved, there are many elements of the proposed legislation that are exactly on point in terms of implementing systematic approaches and strong oversight and a datadriven process between the manufacturer, strengthening the workforce aspects, systems thinking, systems engineers, Human Factors, are very helpful. So in 2018 senator cantwell and i put the 2018 faa act, leading democrat in the subcommittee that brought the legislation for words, the implementation of the 2018 faa act as relates to these programs has occurred and as the faa implementation created any changes to its oversight since the 737 crashes. And we will continue to do that. Weve also recently selected a project manager who will be reporting to me quarterly on the execution around a lot of the issues that are in the proposed legislation, the committees of version, that we had a lot of the same things in terms of implementing the recommendations from the special Committee Report, technical review and the ntsb recommendation. You mentioned on recertify the plane were talking about, that you would fly that yourself before it was recertified. What kind of special information or training would a skilled pilot like you need before he got in the cockpit of a plane that was in the process of being certified begin . Ive got quite a bit of flying time on the 737 on previous versions, and ive been out, in my first month, on the job, when went out to seattle s flown the various profiles. So im very familiar with the system. Also, my deputy and i will be completing the same Simulator Training that the joint operations Evaluation Board pilots will be going through. And then ill complete a flight profile on the aircraft as well. We will have several days of preparation to get ready for that event. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator klobuchar joins us remotely. Fifty. I get very much mr. Chairman, senator cantwell, holding this hearing, and administrator dickson, thank you for being here. I especially want to acknowledge the families out there. Im so glad i dont senator cantwell worked to have im so sorry for your loss. I think your courage and coming forward for your daughter is going to make a difference, not just for your family but for some of the families out there. I want to start, mr. Dickson, these two tragic plane crashes as a no, boeing 737 in indonesia and if you looked at the lives of over 300 including one of my constituents from st. Cloud minnesota. At the committees hearing in october i expressed concerns the findings of the report from the department of transportation Inspector General, that found the faa conducted oversight of only 4 of Airline Manufacturers employees responsible for conducting the certification. The same report also found one manufacturer approved about 95 of the certifications for its own aircraft. So knowing this program contributed to the faas oversight failure for the 737 max certification, are you concerned about how widely the program is used for certifications and how little oversight there is . I guess the second question would be, you know, you release the plans to improve the certification process, but it would not change the program by which the f8 delegates the authorities over the addresses the undue pressure for manufacturers. So could you talk about where you are on this and what you think about my concerns about whether or not this is going to improve things are not . Thank you. Thank you for your question. I show your perspective on the families, and as i said we owe it to them and into the publico this right. With respect to the amount of delegation, it depends on you know, delegation, the oda process is based on trust. And i would say its a trust but verify system. And its a privilege. It has to be earned and early in a certification process there is typically only very routine items that are delegated. There are four parts of the certification process in terms of establishing the certification basis, and actually the only part that actually delegated is analysis and testing. And those are the items that you see as we see data as a process continues over a time typically of five to seven years in most cases, that there may be an opportunity to delegate additional items in terms of certification analysis and testing only. The undue pressure issue is what im concerned about, given what we saw with the internal serving in boeing were onethird of it, employees said they felt this pressure. Thats an extremely important issue. We intend to investigate instances of undue pressure, but specifically this is why Safety Management systems are so important because the only way to address that culture issue is by increasing the ability for frontline folks both within the agency frankly and within the manufacturer to bring issues forward in real time. And one of the benefits of Safety Management systems is that it puts safety responsibility where it belongs at the highest levels of the manufacturer. It also promotes transparency. All all right, if i could jut move on, mr. Dickson, i dont see the timer here but im going to ask you just to quick more question. September the ntsb noted the underlying assumptions boeing made about how pilots would react under certain conditions were severely flawed. The assumptions were. And have you started looking at the approval of other aircraft, nonboeing aircraft or other boeing aircraft based on the recommendations regarding the pilot assumptions . To me someone who is not a pilot saw this as a problem. Its a great question. The Human Factors issues and power performance and the pilot is integral to the design of the aircraft is something that we are reviewing very closely as part of not only the return of service of the max also our certification processes in general. Its a key pillar of our strategy. Okay. Last, in january the special committee commissioned by secretary chao to review the crashes recommended the faa should expand efforts to improve international standards. This bill was already referenced with senator moran and senator capito and, of course, senator cantwell, and i am one of the cosponsors, foreign to help improve international Pilot Training. Do you agree that the faa should work with our International Partners to develop International Pilot and Safety Standards for the aviation workforce and industry . I think we all know as we know for my constituent dying in that crash that no one is immune. Our americans are going to be on flights all over the world. Yes, wholeheartedly agree and the ik oh effort i talked about before is acutely aware already undertaking in this area and we look forward to continue to engage both bilateral and regionally on Pilot Training and qualification issues around the world. Thank you, senator klobuchar. I would note technically our clock is supposed to be on the screens so we will ill fix it, ill fix it. Next is senator fischer also joining us remotely. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Administrator dickson, welcome this morning. Good to have you here. The joint authorities technical review said that the faa was not completely unaware of the ncis but because of the information and discussions about ncgs were so fragmented, were delivered to disconnect groups it was difficult to recognize the impacts and the implications of the system. Last october i asked then boeing president and ceo about that fragmentation between boeing and faa which he responded that boeing needed to improve communications with its agencies. Do you agree that the communication between boeing and faa, that it was fragmented to the point that relevant information was not provided to the agency . And if so, how will steps that you outlined such as a Safety Management system and eight, quote, just culture improve that . Thank you for the question, senator. Couple of points there. I agree that and i think our reviews and other reviews have shown that information was presented in in a fragmented mr and it was difficult to follow the entire thread. And this was part of one of the major issues that we are dealing with. Within the agency we have recently taken steps to have our pilots and our Flight Standards group involved earlier in the certification process throughout. This is part of our effort to make sure that Human Factors consideration or taking into account and integrate into the design process. As you mentioned, Safety Management systems as i mentioned a few minutes ago are probably the biggest game changer in my experience in terms of turning the culture around and making it more transparent and focused, again, at the highest levels of throughout the organization on safety and quality. It also puts the agency in a much stronger position in terms of being able to oversee the entire certification process because its less transactional. Its not, you know, a question and answer period its actually a data feed where were actually privy to the picture as the program progresses. So theres a lot that goes into that. Again, data is very important and communications are very important that that will definy put us in a much better place. And also, mr. Dickson, we are seeing that aircraft are becoming more automated, and that means that theres more systems that can affect the aircraft controls without any kind of pilot input. During a hearing last year, dot Inspector General testified that, quote, reliance on automation is a growing concern among Industry Experts who have questioned whether pilots receive enough training and enough experience to maintain manual flying proficiency. Do you share that concern about automation . I do. And automation is a benefit and it has led it has been part of the improvement in aviation safety that weve seen over the years. But the individual still has to be engaged with the machine. And to the extent that we are overreliance emmylou Situational Awareness flying airplane, you thought to manager flightpath and you have to stay mentally engage with the aircraft. So there is a balance and thats why integrating Human Factors and human capabilities into aircraft design has always been important but its more important now and going in the future than it ever has been. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you very much, senator fischer. Senator schatz. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you for conducting this hearing. Mr. Dickson, i wanted to change the topic of the bit from certification reform to flying safely during the pandemic. The international Civil Aviation Organization Recently issued recommendations for travel during the pandemic, and i just want to get your views on those recommendations and what the faa is going to do to integrate that into their process. Thank you for the question, senator schatz. Actually those recommendations were the result of work that we did in the agency and brought forth through the council on Aviation Recovery Task force and i selected my deputy administrator dan elwell to lead that effort and he worked with the council in with authorities around the world to bring those guidelines for word. Were working on a similar process within the u. S. Government and certainly involving the cdc and others to have a similar set of measures and guidelines promulgated for travel within the u. S. So that we when you say measures and guidelines, do you mean rules or do you mean guidelines . I mean guidelines as the secretary has said. These will not be regulatory mandates but there will be very specific, and we expect for air carriers and the public to follow those guidelines as well as airports, and are working with the air carriers on this. Were using their Safety Management systems and the data thats coming out of the systems to monitor is is a philosophical thing for you folks . I mean this sincerely. I just dont get why you wouldnt want this to be mandatory. I dont understand why were sort of going with the sort of privatesector driven approach here or a voluntary approach or of federalism approach. Is this just a matter of your approach to what the federal government should do . It seems to me when youre talking that aviation, its certainly federal. And when youre talking about endemic it falls into the category squarely of the kinds of aviation safety. Its the kind of thing you ought to make mandatory if you come to certain conclusions about how to fly safely. So what gives here . How come you dont want to make a role . I appreciate the question, senator. I am coming at this an agency comes at this from an aviation safety perspective. So there are many things, a lot of data that we have that we get from the commercial aviation carriers and we need to make sure that theres not an impact on aviation safety. With respect to Public Health, thats the cdc and, of course, they have responsibilities for sectors of transportation and really the entire Public Health situation that goes well beyond aviation. So we are acting as a facilitator in that process, but if there is a nexus for aviation safety, then we are concerned about that. Thats what we are working with a carriers on and in the interagency process within the government to make sure that we have consistent guidelines out there. I doubt it. Look, we have a difference of opinion. Im hoping we will be able to get some bipartisan support for some mandatory rules here, but i dont want to chew up all my time. I want to ask two more quick questions. Is flying safe from the standpoint of coronavirus . Yes, i believe so. Again, we all have a role to play. We have to protect each other. And again, the air carriers and airports and tsa and all stakeholders out there, the faas air traffic organization, we have to make sure that were operating the system safely and consistently and predictably. Thank you. One final question on may 1 the d. C. Circuit ruled in the case of Hawaii Coalition that the faa must establish air tour management plans for all covered parts within two years. Im assuming you will implement that as soon as possible, especially in those parks where this is an area of contention . Yes, senator. I am familiar with the ruling and i believe that we are working with the park service now and have a preliminary plan that will be presented august 30. Thank you very much. Senator moran. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Mr. Dickson, thank you for being here, and for the second panel, the witness there, condolences from me and my colleagues in the committee. We thank you for your presence here today to help us better understand the importance of the decisions that the faa and congress may make in regard to airline safety. We have come a long way in that regard but recognize its a never ending attempt to advance safety. Im pleased that you are here. Im sorry you here for the reason that you are. Mr. Dickson, let me first indicate to the chairman, chairman wicker, thank you for your efforts. I i dont know exactly informatn you are seeking from the faa that im always please when congressional efforts are made for greater oversight and please consider me an ally anyway i can be of help in effort in the efe sure the faa and other agencies respond to congressional inquiries. Mr. Dickson, you have been useful to me, valuable to me n your responses, opportunities have conversations both in person before covid19 essence of schooling by phone and i thank you for that. Im surprise, i certainly am not at all suggesting anything but safety should drive the recertification process that it surprises me how long its taken and it surprises me because i assumed the plane which was previously certified, the 737 max, it, if it was already certified it seems to me the change necessary to satisfy the needs for safety would be rather modest. I guess im asking, is that just a false assumption that, if s, how do we get to a point in which the magnitude of the problems with the 737 max were so great that its taking a significantly long time to get them fixed . And tell me again during our last conversation you indicated midsummer is a a still a case d is covid19 slow down the process in recertification . Thanks for the question, senator. To your last point we are not on any timeline. We are narrowing the issues and weve not had any impact with covid19 up to this point. When we get to the joint operation Evaluation Board that involves International Pilots and international travel, and so the are a couple of alternatives that were looking at to have the processes in place to be able to support that work, but up to this point the process has proceeded without interruption. You raise a great question and it think it needs to be clear that the redesign of the airplane is not just limited to changing mcas functionality. The entire Flight Control system, beginning, boeing undertook this in the junejuly timeframe of last year but became a much more ambitious project and theres much more redundancy. The Flight Control computers and pitch compare their signals dynamically. Thats an extremely ambitious project, and as we have moved forward, when you make a system like that more robust, what happens is it implicates there are and are independency with other subsystems on aircraft that have to be taken into account. So again this is, weve moved forward i think very diligently and very carefully. And as you know we have retained all matters within the faa including we will issue the airworthiness certificates ourselves. But thats why this is such a journey that we have been on. Administrator, i am in no way suggesting anything but safety ought to drive your timeframe, and the question was really, and we can have this conversation ourselves, does the magnitude of the changes necessary, does it suggest that the certification initially was significantly flawed to begin with . And ill be glad to follow up. I want to just touch on a couple of both things in the 30 seconds i have left. I want to explore with you and will submit a question in writing about how do we get the faa to be in a better position to adopt new innovations and move in advancing aviation safety through technology . I think there are some significant opportunities and want to make sure we dont lose the chance to pursue those innovations as we pursue certification. The workforce in kansas but across the country is damaged. Its absence is noted. Furloughs are prevalent across our aviation and Aerospace Industry in wichita and in southcentral kansas but elsewhere in our state as well. We are working to find a path for Publicprivate Partnership that keeps those employees in place and on a payroll. I would seek your advice and suggestions in that regard. Finally, i appreciate senator cantwell cooperation on with store klobuchar and senator capito in regard to senate bill 3959. 3959. Because of the lack of time i have, i guess theres no time left. I will follow up with you in writing unless we have a second round of questions. Thank you, senator moran. Before i go to senator blumenthal, let me remind members that we have a series of two votes beginning at 11 45. 11 45. I have talked with senator cantwell. Our intention is simply to share the gavel, proceed on and do the best we can to conclude both panels of this hearing. We are required by the next committee to surrender this room no later than one, and feel sure that we will be able to do that. And i also appreciate members being so thoughtful as to the five minute timeframe with their questions. Senator blumenthal, you are recognized. Takes mr. Chairman. Im going to be even less genteel than senator cantwell. I find your responses, with all due respect, administrator dickson, to be totally unsatisfactory. The culture of secrecy at the faa has only been aggravated under your tenure. You have completely refused to respond to any of my letters requesting information, not even an explanation, neither here nor there. I see no way you can continue in this job if you fail to be more responsive to this committee. And i think it begins today with a commitment to and that culture of secrecy, to commit to major reforms of the kind that the chairman and Ranking Member have suggested in their legislation. I welcome it because it includes stronger protections for whistleblowers such as i suggested in a bipartisan in the reform proposal that i advanced with support from senator markey, senator udall and feinstein. Natalie protection for whistleblowers but minimum qualifications for the engineers performing work on behalf of the faa targeted audits of oda units, minimum, addressing concerns about compensation and bonuses for meeting performance goals. The fact of the matter is that the faa has been complicit in these crashes by failing to do more diligent oversight. Its almost been like a dog watching tv, and there have to be reforms that take back major swaths of the authority that a been delegated. The faa has to do the work, not just oversee it. It has to perform work that involves certification. And so let me ask you first, why can the faa not take back the authority is delegated over critical safety features . Senator, i vehemently disagree with your characterization of my level of desire for transparency, and i just want to reiterate the commitment that i made to the chairman. Ill make it to you as well. We want to collaborate and Work Together with a committee to raise the bar in aviation safety. Critical novel technologies, those are things that are typically not delegated by the agency. As i i said in my remarks earl, testing and analysis typically on more routine matters and early in the certification process are typically delegated. But thats but it did delegate that authority with respect to the 737. No, sir. No. Not until very late in the project. Well, late in the project is often the critical phase in the project. Let me move onto another area and ill invite you to expand on your answer in written responses. Would you join me in supporting a prohibition on preemption of claims made against a manufacturer airline simply because theres been certification by the faa . Right now boeing has taken the position that it will deny all claims against it so we because the faa certified the 737. Be happy to work with you on that proposal, senator. I was hoping for a yes. Im not prepared to respond on that point today. Will you join me in supporting time limits on the certificates or certification of specific airline types . I believe youre talking about the change product rule or amended Type Certificates, and that is one of the areas that we were looking at and thats harmonizer globally with the other states of design, and we are looking at that process. Whether time limit is most effectively to deal with that remains to be seen. That current rule actually enables safe additions to be brought into very safe existing designs more effectively, and its actually in many cases use less in the u. S. Than with other states a design. So its something we will have to look at. Let me just say in concluding, left to its own devices, the aviation certification system puts corporate profits before consumer safety. And this system has to be radically reformed. Im going to ask that my letter of october 24, 2019, which is among many that you havent answered be put in the record. I hope that you will provide an answer in light of your responses here. Is that of we will have to rebuild trust to the administrator, sir . Is that a letter to the administrator . It is. Without objection it will be in. Senator scott. I want to thank you, chairman wicker, for holding this important hearing. I want to first thank mr. Stumo to be a today to provide your testimony. My heart goes out to you and your family for your loss. I think it takes a lot of courage to be able to come into this today. Administrator dickson, i want to thank you for being here today and i want to thank you for your efforts to restructure and approve the faa to make sure it, i can be Global Leader in safety. Can you talk about how you restructure the faa to increase accountability and ensure you have the capacity to be the Global Leader in safety and the certification process . Thank you, senator scott. The level of engagement globally in my first few months has been extremely impressive, and im very proud to have the privilege of leading 45,000 professionals at the agency. They are extremely committed. We started out, we start out with core values. We are a technical organization. As has been said many times, our top priority is safety. Weve got to be driven by core values. Rules are not going to get us where we need to be. We have got to have an approach where we are transparent, we can have professional disagreements but weve got to have a way to make sure we look at all sides of every perspective. One of the things i really pushed is to deal with issues from a one agency perspective. What i find and ive seen this in the private sector as well is you will have department or come in my case, a line of business or staff office thats pursuing its own goals and objectives, and maybe even using its own data. So what we have to do is take across the entire agency perspective, because we have a lot of data and their event a lot of problems solved over the years that it created various pockets but we have to be able to see the whole picture. Thats one of the things we are really working on. What i mentioned in response to the question gets to this point is a more seamless integration between our Flight Standards a group and our aircraft certification group. Thank you. Does your certification process incorporate any crosssection or something similar so you reduce the possibility of factors like human error . Again, yes, thats always been a part of the process, but what were looking at as we mentioned in the response to the sector special Committee Report is we are looking at some of the assumptions around human error and how this can be incorporated into aircraft design all along more effectively. When you think about the issues with the 737 max, and the certification process, are you recessing the certification process for all aircraft that you certify . Yes, sir. Thats what all of the reviews that even done, the work of the committee, the dialogue that weve had internally within the agency, its all leading us to a more robust process. I believe that the biggest thing that we can do is implement Safety Management systems for manufacturers, and we are working on that right now. We plan to initiate rulemaking on that shortly. Im a big supporter of that. Ive seen the benefits in the airline industry. We need to take those same kinds of benefits into the manufacturing sector. Whats your communication plan to make sure everybody gets more comfortable that the faa has changed and that the certification process works and if you get an faa certification, you clearly will be safe, or as safe as you can be. Weve got, aviation again is the safest form of travel. Our commercial aviation sector accident rate is down 94 in the last 20 years. We that hundreds of millions of flights over the last decade with a sterling safety record. One death is one too many, and, of course, the 346 deaths we saw in these two accident are tragic and unacceptable. Weve got to keep raising the bar with aviation, within the u. S. But weve also got to take the responsibility that u. S. Products are being maintained and operated around the world. So we need to raise that bar around the world as well. Thank you, administrator. Thank you, senator scott. Senator markey. You should have known about the safety of the boeing 737 max before it ever took off. The tragic fate of line flight 610 should lead to an immediate grounding of this plan, the faa allowed the clearly unsafe 737 max to keep flying for five months after the first crash which killed 189 people. During these five months the faa repeatedly said it did not have enough data to ground the max. However, you have since learned the faa conducted an unpublished Risk Assessment after the lion air tragedy. This report predicted 15 more fatal crashes in the life of the max, 15 more crashes. The faa knew the 737 max was not safe and still let it fly. And it gambles with thousands of lives. The faa only change course after 157 more people died on the Ethiopian Airlines flight 302 but the second tragedy never had to happen. If the faa had been transparent with its data, everyone would have demanded the next the grounded before a second crash. It is now your responsibility to make sure the faa just is completely transparent while it reviews whether to underground the max. When you commit to making every document on ground document and study related to the underground 11737 max public . Senator, so i appreciate te question. The document you are referring to is actually not a predicted document. If the Decision Support tool. It really is an actuarial calculation that is designed come with when it unsafe condis identified, design to make sure that we are will you make, would you make every document available . Every document. Its an easy question. Its an easy question, mr. Dickson. Will you make every document available for the public . Senator, im not sure what normal protocol is on that but we will be as transparent as it possibly can. No, no, thats not the question. Not as you can. Thats what happened the last time. You were not transparent the last time. Will you commit to making every document public . Senator, im not in a position to commit to that at this point. Well, if youre not then youre your part of a cover up. You are complicit. You are not providing information which is going to be needed. I just want to follow up for a second on what senator blumenthal was just asking, because despite all of its wrongdoing, boeing has barely been held accountable for these tragic crashes, although boeings former ceo was fired come he left the company with a 60 million golden parachute. Boeings new ceo boeing has failed to settle the claims of the victims families in the Ethiopian Airlines flight 302 lawsuit. I find this lack of accountability absolutely outrageous. The flying public cannot trust that boeing has learned its lessons until the company and people responsible are held to task for the 346 deaths they cost. So i am appalled but not surprise that boeing is now arguing in court that the faa certification of the 737 max should shield it from liability to the victims families even though the plane was clearly unsafe and effective. Again i want to follow up on senator blumenthal. Do you support boeings position or should the victims families be held come be able to hold boeing accountable for a defective plane recounts of whether the Company Complies with broken faa regulation . Senator, im not in a position to comment on that but i would be willing to follow up with you on that question. Look, theres no way that boeing should have escape liability. I think you know that, and i think its going to be important for you alternately to make a statement to the effect that boeing had a responsibility to ensure that this plane was safe. And if it did not acted that way, that they should be held accountable. I think the faa and you should make a statement to that effect. Senator, i i just want to me clear that the safety responsibility to produce a safe product does belong with boeing, absolutely. Okay, i think thats important for people to hear. Boeing has responsibility for making a safe product and im glad you clarified that. Absolutely. Its important for the record to indicate that its not just the faa but boeing itself that has responsibility and they did not just discharge that responsibility, they should be made liable to these families. Thank you, senator markey. Thank you, sir. Senator udall. Thank you, mr. Chairman and thank you Ranking Member cantwell. Administrator dickson, the duty of our committee is to closely examine the failures of both the federal Aviation Administration and boeing to prevent the tragedies that occurred last year. We must reexamine the Current System to allow for a much too cozy relationship between regulators and companies, including boeing. I want to make this point crystal clear. Boeings efforts to push for more Self Certification and to push the faa to move faster and faster to approve the 737 max were totally counterproductive and resulted in tragedy. This continues to be a case study of the complete and total failure of selfregulation, and i think this will go down as one of the big mistakes in history in this area. Mr. Dickson, last month in the faas response to the special committees report, you said the administration would increase staff at the office of the middle of this investigation, the Organization Designation authority, the 2018 faa bill required that faa do so. Why has it taken over a year and hundreds of lives lost before you committed to expanding this office as required by law . Senator udall, appreciate your question. We stood up the oda office towards the end well, actually well in advance of the budget request but we didnt have the resources at that point for permanently staff again. Thats what that 2021 request will allow us to do. I support legislation before this committee that would reform the oda process. I believe that it is essential to prevent future accidents. Does he faa have any recommendations for oda . Yes, sir. Ive mentioned several times this morning, we certainly the documentation of Safety Management systems, the use of safety risk management, integrated system Safety Assessments is very important as well as the consideration of the operating environment around the globe. These are some of the recommendations that we have responded to, and i think they are very consistent with where the committee is headed in this area. Have you implemented those changes already . With respect to the we are working on them. We are in the process of we have plans to recruit system safety engineers and Software Engineers as well, as well as additional Human Factors, expert. We are also on our 777x certification plan. We are using a a technical Advisory Board as we did with the max, and as you know with the 737 max we had retained every aspect of that project as well including the issuance of the individual aircraft certificates. We will continue to do that until we see that through. An important component in the certification process is the faa must be made aware of changes i company the Company Makes to its equipments. The report say the faa was not aware of the significance of the changes boeing made to the equipment of the 737 max. What specific steps or policy changes has boeing made to regain trust of the faa and the american people, and how can you assure us that boeing will truly comply with all regulatory requirements in the future . Senator, its a great question. Again, boeing has voluntarily implemented some aspects of Safety Management system. I have made some changes to the internal processes. We are seeing a Culture Shift in some areas, that there is more work done and we are going to stay right on the process to make sure that we see this through as we continue to reform our processes within the agency around voluntary safety reporting and Safety Management systems as well. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator udall. Senator rosen. Thank you, chairman wicker, Ranking Member cantwell, administrator dickson, and mr. Stumo. I am incredibly sorry for your loss and for the loss of all the souls on the planes that crashed in this fashion. And so today i want to talk a little bit about boeing, more owing specific questions building on some of the topics that have already been asked here id like to revisit the topic that arrays with boeing ceo when you came before this panel. According to news reports when the Brazilian National Civil Aviation agency came to the u. S. In 2017 to test out the max eight, it determined that changes made to the old 737 were significantly enough that the made it much more information that they needed much more information from boeing and they would provide it to their pilots. When brazil Aviation Authority eventually published it, they published their Pilot Training requirements, it was able to flag the mcas as one of the changes the pilots need to take into consideration when flying the max eight. And yet for u. S. Pilots mcas was not mentioned in their manual. So, administrator dickson, why was that the case and why didnt the faa not seek Additional Information from boeing on the mcas system . Senator rosen, thank you for the question. Im on record and i strongly believe that it should of been in the material, in the operations material that was provided to the pilots. Anything that affects the Flight Control system of the airplane, the pilots should have. So i think i have concerns about how that was initially done. I appreciate that. So can you assure us that moving for the faa will make it a practice when other countries make significant changes to the pilot manual based a major operational changes that the faa will consider or absolutely do this, doing so as well, notifd our u. S. Airlines and pilot to prevent any tragedies . Thats a great question. We do that now to the Certification Management team with the other states of design, and depending on the operating environment in different parts of the world or hot pilots are trained, there may be differences of opinion of exactly what those details are but yes would you agree with me that it might be better to over inform than not inform at all . And so that way on the off chance that somebody might not know, its always better to give a little bit more information . I would thats how i was going to finish the sentence. I think if theres any doubt that having that Information Available is always going to be a better place to be. And then i would just like to follow up with a little time i have left more broadly, can you speak to what steps you are taken to ensure that manufactures disclose those safety Critical Systems that are not activated by the flight crew . How do you plan to be sure that this information is disclosed in pilot manuals . Because they need to know whats under the control and what maybe isnt, how to do the overrides. So really two things. The integration of the pilots earlier in the design process is going to be very important. In fact, we are undertaking training our technical pilots and our inspectors within the faa who are not certification expert but are who are in that Aircraft Evaluation Group, trained them on things like system Safety Assessment and certification processes so there actually indicted earlier on in the certification process. That will put us in a much better position to have visibility into the issues as a certification or particular project goes forward. Thank you. Thank you very much, senator rosen. Senator chuck grassley. Senator duckworth. Are we able to be joined remotely by senator duckworth . Hello. Can you hear me of . Was yes. Glad to hear your voice. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I apologize. Administrator dickson, i apologize i cant be an video right but it is good to see you again. I have several questions for you, so in the interest of time please limit your answers to yes and no. Given that the faa was responsible for aviation safety and the United States come your agency can take measures including legal enforcement action for violations of federal aviation regulation, is this correct . Thats correct. It is faa policy to investigate complaints of lowflying aircraft that endanger persons or property, is that correct . Yes. Any kind of reckless operation of the aircraft is the responsible of the pilot in command, and that is something we would want to investigate and look into. Hanky. With some flexibility for helicopters, and my manual is from 2018, so maybe some things have changed but i doubt it. Faa regulations require a minimum altitude of 1000 feet above the highest obstacle for congested areas including any open air, is this correct . I believe thats correct. I would have to go back and verify that for myself. I know. You flew big aircraft but i did. [inaudible] you need to check me out on a helicopter sometime. Well, you know, the last time i flew psi son might not bee right person. Mr. Dickson, [inaudible] this paragraph was flown roughly 100 feet above Peaceful Protesters in downtown washington, d. C. , on june 1. Are you as outraged as i am about this extremely dangerous maneuver . Im not will, we are looking into that, senator. I am aware of the circumstances and we are looking at this from compliance with air traffic regulations in addition to the operation of the aircraft, and its an Ongoing Investigation. I believe what you are referring to took place within the prohibited area which is not under active control of the pilot in command still is responsible for following the safety regulations. Im going to have a question along those lines in just a minute, but before that the International Red cross emblem as you can see on this aircraft is painted on. Its a universally recognized symbol of medical aid and its uses or he would under the geneva convention. If i i could pull up slide two, what about this black hawk helicopter flown about protesters on the same night . Did this helicopter endanger civilians on the ground and potentially violate faa safety regulations . We have not come again, its under investigation. We are looking into it carefully and i would be happy to follow up with you once we completed our review. Thank you. These helicopters were reportedly flown by the d. C. National guard which is the only National Guard in the nation that reports directly to the president of the United States do 2d seas unique political status. According to local news reports, the downward force of helicopters blade snapped a nearby small tree. Mr. Dickson, as you said you were talking about looking into it. Are you saying that the d. C. Flight status District Office has opened an investigation into these events . Yes, we have open an investigation. When do you expect the investigations final report to be available . I do not know this morning but i will follow up with you as it proceeds. Wonderful. You will commit to providing my office with a copy of the report as soon as possible . We will provide you with the results of the investigation, yes. Thank you. Now, if we can pull up slide three, please. Mr. Dickson, from an aviation safety perspective do you agree with this tweet from President Trump whose condoning dangerous maneuvers to intimidate american protesters on american soil . He tweeted, this problem is not the first count, lowflying helicopter pilots wanting to save our city. The problem is our sins, looters and and arcus wanting to destroy it. Im not a millionaire dash it if the first time ive seen. Its the first time ive seen it. Do you agree with it . Im not sure how it applies to this particular situation, but as i said, senator, we will look into the facts of this reticular event. Senator duckworth, we had a technical issue. I believe you have referred to three slides, and lets enter those into the record at this point without objection. Is there any objection . Then it will be done. Thank you, senator duckworth. Senator baldwin. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Dickson, this past december, amy gagnon and her 13yearold daughter jocelyn were killed in Helicopter Crash while on a Family Vacation in hawaii. Amy was a local Business Leader and an advocate for entrepreneurs in wisconsin. She was an energetic and positive presence for the madison area in wisconsin, in fact, the whole state. I understand that there is an ongoing ntsb investigation into that Helicopter Crash. But i would also note for you and this committee that the serious whistleblower allegations of misconduct at the faa, and that the whistleblower has said that he was prevented from inspecting this safari aviation aircraft prior to its crash in december. So, mr. Dickson, can i have your commitment to working with me to help ensure that what happened to the Gannon Family is not repeated for any other family. Was yes, senator. As i said many times, we have got to make sure that were doing Everything Possible to promote aviation safety. Helicopter air tours and other operations of this type are not what you need to be funny safety perspective and is a big focus for the agency. We are engaged in training our inspectors to make sure that they have the appropriate background and familiarity with this type of operation. So we would welcome working with you on this subject. Thank you. Mr. Dickson, in december, senator duckworth and i you and secretary chao a letter following up on a bipartisan amendment with now chairman wicker that we had included in the faa reauthorization act. That amendment required the department of transportation to review existing regulations and standards, ensuring assistance from passengers with disabilities in air transportation. Specifically, our letter noted a concern that current regulations do not require handson training for employees or contractors when moving passengers, including those with spinal cord injury. Passengers have been dropped during the transfer process, and this is unacceptable. Ill take it right after this hearing, i will take it and well get an update for you from the department. Mr. Chairman, i cant currently see the time clock. A minute and a half. Oh, excellent. So administrator dickson at your confirmation hearing before this Committee Just over a year ago, i noted the Ongoing Investigation at the f. A. A. , here in congress and within the d. O. T. Inspector generals and the department of justice. I asked you then if confirmed, what would you require of boeing before ungrounding the 7 737 max. In the year youve been administrator at the f. A. A. Some of these investigations have in fact concluded and reports with investigations. And others with the Auditor Generals Office have not concluded and weve seen recent plans, most recently that boeing is aimed at conducting a key certificate if ication certification later. And i want to ask you what i asked you a year ago, what would you do as f. A. A. To give the green light for ungrounding that 737 max. Thats a great question. We would require every step to be ive said, my team, we will retain every aspect and work the process through to completion. However long that takes, we wont have undue delays. Well be ready to go, but one of the things that we have been working with boeing on and weve seen some improvements is to give us complete data submissions in the certification work as weve gone forward and we will continue to do that. And i also, as we work forward, there are some penalty action that is weve taken. I believe its the second largest civil penalty in the history of the f. A. A. Against boeing and we will continue to look at their performance and i reserve the right to hold them accountable moving forward as well on that way, if thats necessary. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you very much. Senator cruz. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Dickson, a little over a year ago you sat before this committee on the confirmation hearing, and i as others told you to be pissed off at what had happened. Youve been in office 329 days and weve heard today that youre stonewalling the chairmans investigations, that youre refusing to answer multiple letters from at least one of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, senator blumenthal and youve yet to provide responsive documents to the foia request filed eight months ago. Let me ask you some simple questions. In the process of certification of the 737 max did boeing lie to the f. A. A. . I cant say. I cant say. I mean, definitely there was incomplete information and fragmented information that was provided, no doubt. Why did one of their senior test pilots, mr. Forker, write in a text, quote, so i basically lied to the regulators unknowingly. I dont know. I cant speak for him. I dont know what he meant by that, senator. So in 329 days what have you been doing, if not figuring out whether they lied and what they lied about . Im interested in learning from the past and making the process and the agency more effective and better going forward. The important point is that the information was not provided in the way that it needed to be provided. That in itself degrades the trust that we need to have thats a foundation to the certification process. Okay. Lets learn from the past. Did the f. A. A. Screw up in certifying the 737 max . I have concerns, i would say there were mistakes made, yes. So in washington, the passive voice is a classic tell. Mistakes were made is a great way of avoiding responsibility because there is no actor in that phrase mistakes were made. Who made the mistakes and why . Dont speak in the passive voice. The manufacturer made mistakes and the f. A. A. Made mistakes in its oversight of the manufacturer. And what were the mistakes and why were they made . The full implications of the Flight Control system were not understood as design changes were made. Has anyone at f. A. A. Been fired . There have been changes in leadership in various areas. No waun has been fired over this particular matter up to this point. Has anyone been disciplined over this matter . No, not specifically. So unknown somebodies made unspecified mistakes for which there have been no repercussions, is that right . I would not say that there have not been repercussions. Well, please tell us the repercussions. The repercussions are that we are we have significant reforms we are making to the process and we are standing up audit processes and review processes and more robust Safety Systems so that we can be more effective in the future as an organization. Is there a systemic problem of agency capture at the f. A. A. . You know, i remember us having this conversation, senator. And i dont believe that it is agency capture, but i do believe that when you have very capable technical subject Matter Experts that they get focused on their checklist or their part of the process, they hold themselves accountable for that and they dont always see the whole picture so thats why we need as leaders to make sure that we are taking an integrated approach in our dealing in this case with the air carrier or whatever the regulated party is that we are responsible for overseeing. Mr. Dickson in your Opening Statement you said quote, safety is a journey not a destination, for the 346 souls lost on the two 737 maxes that crashed, safety was all about arriving at their destination. They should have arrived at the destination. Had boeing not covered up serious safety concerns, number one, and had the f. A. A. Done its job of making sure that the mcast was not put in the field without pilots be appropriately trained. I think the concern this committee has is were not seeing from you any of the urgency of fixing this problem. It is very easy to go into an agency and yourself get captured by the agency. You understand, sir, you do not work for the airlines and you do not work for boeing, you work for the american people. And this committee expects transparency. This committee expects that when we ask questions specifically about malfeasance that cost the lives of 346 peop people, that you will be forth coming and answer those questions. And im hopeful thats the conduct well see going forward. Forward. Thank you, senator cruz. Now i thank the chairman for holding todays hearing as part of this committees continued oversight of aircraft certification in the wake of the two tragic crashes in indonesia and ethiopia. My deepest sympathies remain with the families of the victims and thank them for being here today. I want to associate myself by comments made by the chairman of the committee and other members, being responsive to requests for documents and other information as we conduct oversight. I hope you are hearing loudly and clearly, mr. Dickson, how critical that is to the work that we do and the work that you do in order to keep the flying public safe. One of the major lessons that we learn from these tragic accidents is that a thorough consideration of Human Factors should become a more fundamental component of design and testing of new aircraft, especially as avionic systems are more complex. Where do you see the Human Factors in the aircraft certification process . Thats a great question, senator. First of all, its bolstering our Human Factors expertise so theres a work force component in addition to working with academia and nasa on these issues. Frankly, also, involving our pilots and our Flight Standards group, our Aircraft Evaluation Group into a more integrated point in the process will allow us to take a more holistic view of the role of the human in aircraft design and not look at them as independently as they have been in the past. And because its more than a matter of just training a pilot to operate a particular machine. We want to make sure that the pilot is viewed as a part of the design. Good, well, that was one. Things that i think that we learned was there were gaps in training as well and it seems like if its serious issue to be addressed. You mentioned your testimony, the f. A. A. Will need to ensure that personnel receive the training they need to adequately adapt to an industry thats constantly adopting new technologies and implementing complex systems in line with that discussion, what initiatives is f. A. A. Pursuing to ensure the current personnel have the training they need as well as recruit and hire new personnel . Its again, a great question. Our Aviation Safety Organization has a 10year work force plan and we are in the process of continually reviewing our needs in our response to the secretary of special Committee Report, we will have a focus again on i talked about Human Factors experts, but also system engineers, Software Engineers and data scientists, so that we can again have a stay ahead of new technologies as theyre introduced. Your testimony also discussed, and you mentioned it just briefly here, the f. A. A. s fan to adopt a more holistic approach with certification process. This includes better coordination between various f. A. A. Offices and the Safety System for the aircraft manufacturers. How does the f. A. A. Plan to improve coordination between the offices such as the Aircraft Certification Service and Flight Standards, responsible for different aspects of the certification process . Well, its a great question. Weve recently initiated a program to train our aviation safety inspectors who are involved in the Aircraft Evaluation Group on many of the processes that our aircraft certification engineers actually use so that theyre able to participate more fully in all phases of that process. In addition to that, we are standing up a project management or a Program Management function that will take these programs where you have over a period of years and sometimes you have personnel changes and people who may not be there throughout the whole five to seven years of the project to make sure that the entire project hangs together from beginning to end. So those two functions should improve the coordination, thats the goal between those two parts of the agency. Can you speak quickly here to how requiring adoption of a Safety Management system for manufacturers would benefit f. A. A. s oversight of certification process . Yes, senators. Sms has many benefits. I think its actually the most important step that we can take to improve aircraft certification on the companys side, the manufacturer puts again safety responsibility where it belongs and it promotes transparency and voluntary employee reporting on safety issues. And it refocuses accountability for product safety to the highest levels of the company. On the agency side, it allows us to oversee the system and the process and it reinforces the sharing of data in a dynamic process between the manufacturer and the agency. So it greatly improves the regulators ability to identify hazards and manage our oversight before a compliance bust actually occursment we dont have to wait for that because were getting a data feed all throughout the process. Thank you, my time is expired and next up with us remotely is senator sinema. And on conclusion of her questions, pending any senators appearances well move to the second panel. Thank you, administrator dickson, Many Airlines require passengers and crew to wear masks on airplanes. However, enforcement has been uneven and difficult. The c. D. C. Tells us that masking is a vital tool for Public Health, particularly in places where social distancing is not possible like airplane cabins. The f. A. A. Needs to do more to ensure that the system is mitigating the spread of the virus. Right now f. A. A. Only has recommendations, but no federal requirements for masks. Why isnt the f. A. A. Mandating masks on flights and what more can you do to ensure that passengers of Wearing Masks . Well, thank you, senator and we have been working throughout, as the Aviation Safety Authority to provide our aviation expertise to the Public Health authorities, and as secretary chao has said we believe our space is in aviation safety and their space is in Public Health. Having said that, we have made those standards available to the airlines and to labor stake holders and others, and i have told them very specifically that i expect for them to abide by and enforce those standards including the wearing of face coverings on commercial aircraft and we will continue to do that. Were seeing in recent days the adoption of more stringent enforcement on the part of the airlines and we will continue to monitor that situation using the airlines Safety Systems to make sure that theyre following through. So does the f. A. A. Plan to mandate that masks are worn on flights . It sounds like youre recommending th this and youre telling your expectations. We do not plan to provide an enforcement specifically on that issue. However, we are reviewing their voluntary safety programs to make sure that theyre following through. On a related topic, as you might know, im looking at legislation with senator cruz to contact a Contact Tracing during covid19. Given your position on the Interagency Task force relating covid related issues, can you look at tracing issues travelling and detailing any effort youre taking for this issue . Its a great question, weve been involved in Contact Tracing work since the very early days, really dating back to january frankly and were using our aviation expertise to act as a facilitator between the airlines in this case and the Public Health authorities who can manage that data and the question, the question is, that is a need that we all have. We all agree with that. The department is engaged in this as well and we have we certainly have an open mind, but we are trying to make sure that that information gets ingested into the systems where the c. D. C. Can conduct the Contact Tracing that it needs to conduct. Thank you. Airports in arizona, including sky harbor in phoenix and tucson and the gateway have asked for more tools to speed up the construction of aircraft infrastructure earlier this week i introduced some with senator young, more completion of airport construction projects. Allowing to use Airport Improvement Program funds to incentivize faster airport projects. Have you reviewed this and thank you, senator, i am familiar with the proposal i have not actually seen the legislative text, but from what i understand, it is consistent with the need to streamline and facilitate infrastructure projects. So, as i understand it, it is something that we would support and the department would support. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I yield back my time. Well, thank you, very, very much. Now pursuant to the statement made by mr. Thune, we will move to the next panel. Mr. Administrator, thank you very much for your presentation today and we certainly look forward to following up with you on all of the matters. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Let me go ahead and before we excuse you, we will have questions for the record, as im sure you are familiar. Upon receipt we ask you to submit your written answers to the committee as soon as possible and im sure youll do that. So, at this point thank you, sir. Thank you. And if staff will assist mr. Stumo in coming to the microphone we will begin our second panel and a vote is occurring and, gagain, were going to pass the gavel around and try to accommodate senators and the schedule. [inaudible conversations] and so, if were ready, our next panel is mr. Michael stumo, as we said earlier, father of samuel rose stumo who tragically died on Ethiopian Airlines 302. Thank you for your presence today. And you have a written statement which will be submitted in its entirety and we ask you now to summarize your testimony. Youre recognized, sir. Thank you, chairman wicker, Ranking Member cantwell, members of this committee. Chairman wicker and Ranking Member cantwell, appreciate your recent legislative proposal which is an improvement. Ill have some ideas from me and the families how it can be further improved. The et302 families are also indebted to you, Ranking Member cantwell for dedicating time and effort to earning will about our families, the facts and solutions so theres not a third crash. Sammys 26th birthday will be in weeks. I speak for my family. I dont speak for the other 302 families. The it crashed calling all 189 passengers that boeing 737 max8 was only three months old. After an angle attack sensor failed, we now know was the mcas. Boeing put out a statement the max 8 was as safe as any airplane thats ever flown the skies. It was not. March 10th, my daughter sammy was travelling on her First International trip for her employer thinkwell. She flew from dulles to ethiopia for a layover. Just landed, another two hours to nairobi. She never made it. Sammy boarded the max around 8 30 local time and that aircraft was only about four months old. Again, the angle attack sensor failed in this new plane. The mcas repeatedly engaged in pushing the nose down to the ground. Sammy experienced six minutes of rollercoaster terror, so did the others on the plane. The plane plowed into an ethiopian farm field and buried itself dozens of feet in the ground. When my family and i visited the crash site we saw that the a plane and passengers had broken into small pieces and were mixed together with jet fuel. The first crash should not have happened. The second crash was inexcusable. Between the crashes on december 18th, december 3rd, 2018, we now know that f. A. A. Had done an internal Risk Assessment projecting 15 more crashes. Max in its lifetime. In a slide show dated december 18th, 2018. Boeing was reassuring f. A. A. That pilot could handle mcas failure and they could respond immediately, react immediately. Fix it immediately. F. A. A. , we now know, secretly asked boeing for a software fix in 10 months to keep the plane going. The crash happened before 10 months was up. They gambled, we lost. So the max was a plane developed in the obama era, but certified march 2017. It was a deadly aircraft with illfitting engines bolted to a 50yearold fuselage. Rather than fixing the arrow dynamiynamic dynamics, they used glitchy software this was a pattern at boeing, 2013 they minimized the mcas to f. A. A. Saying it was extension of the speed trim system. Everything im saying has been found in reports and its those reports are linked in my testimony. In 2016 they drastically strengthened the mcas and failed to designate it as a safety critical system. That phrase means something, safety Critical Systems, we now know that the chief boeing test pilot bragged about one said the airplane was designed by clowns in turn supervised by monkeys. In 2018 another employee wrote i still havent been forgiven by god for covering up what i did last year. Boeing engineers have told us the families, that the f. A. A. And industry has allowed undue influence to creep in. The prior system resisted undue influence because they appointed and boeing engineers as well as certification duties now f. A. A. Allows boeing to selfcertify. Boeing is cut off by f. A. A. By reporting only to boeing managers, profit and timeline pressures can overwhelm the Safety Culture. The current oda practice invites undue influence. Last october a committee of International Aviation regulators the joint Authorities Technical Review Committee released a report critical of f. A. A. And the max. The report also found the undue influence. It found many problems with the f. A. A. Reducing direct involvement with critical Safety Systems. Thats what the International Report found. Too much reduced direct involvement with critical Safety Systems. They determined that the f. A. A. Engineering staff overseeing boeing were too few, too unqualified to do so. F. A. A. s never responded to that report. The European Agency in transport canada have told f. A. A. Last year they will independently validate its findings rather than deferring as they have to f. A. A. The f. A. A. s core vision appears to be reduce this direct involvement in certification and merely push paper and watch power point presentations. The agency seems comfortable to be as one boeing employee said, dogs watching tv. I expect better. So do the et302 families and the flying public. My name is up, im happy to spell out the legislative changes in any question, answer session, thank you for allowing me. There just arent any words we can say. In my Opening Statement i mentioned several frustrations i had with information requests. Your written testimony discusses this, also, so can you describe the current status of your requests. My request for further improvement. We appreciate the Movement Made so far in the legislation. Our requests are to further rebalance delegation on a substantive level. We appreciate that the f. A. A. Under your bill would appoint, remove and with the boeing engineers responsible for certification, but rebalancing delegation, again wthis whole thing with the report that found that the agency wants to reduce direct involvement certification, just push paper. Instead the Congress Must require that f. A. A. Do its job with safety Critical Systems retain and not delegate authority over Critical Systems. That means not only those determined hazardous and catastrophic if they fail, but also major because we see that boeing tried to fit the mcas into the major category which isnt going to be the hazardous as catastrophic so it could minimize involvement, minimize many things and push profits. So, safety Critical Systems is something the f. A. A. Should maintain. We should have an f. A. A. Red team to look over what the blue team, so to speak, of the manufacture engineers are doing. Number two is a lifetime limit for certificates that the max was certified the year i was born 1967. Im 53 and that family is 53. Theyre trying to cram new engines on an old fuselage putting new software on Old Computers that dont talk to each other and at some point youve got to innovate and make a new plane and thats before 50 years. Maybe 25 years, but at some point you make a new plane, and you dont you make a 21st century aircraft and from boeings perspective the brazilian and they dont catch up to them like gm in the 80s. It should not equal immunity. Boeing apologize and says theyre very sorry, were going to do better, but in court they put claims saying we dont have to pay anything because the f. A. A. Certified and that makes us i am moo unand immune and thats wrong. And f. A. A. Has support of that position and i dont like it and that should change. The legislation should make that clear. Lastly, f. A. A. And n. T. S. B. Secrecy must end. Any excuse they can have to not you hear the word, but word and actions are different. Any excuse to not respond whether were too busy or when they do, thats confidential and proprietary information ap youve seen it. When boeing, when they send document in they get out the rubber stamp and everything says confidential and privileged even if its the dinner menu and then they all say export control and for n. T. S. B. , which is blocking disclosure of documents that happened between the crashes, they say annex 13 covers the dinner menu of icao. Theyre going to use those privileged and confidential excuses as broadly as they can and theres no pement for abusing it, so congress has to step in and rebalance the public interest. So thats what are what i would say. Well, thank you for your testimony and im sure you had no intention of becoming an expert in this subject matter, but we appreciate your insights. Senator cantwell. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And mr. Stumo, thank you for being here and your wife as well and again, my condolences to you and all the families who have been impacted by this and again, my thanks for your continued oversight and communication on these issues because i as ive said ive seen what the families, theyve made an impact on what weve been able to do on safety so im sure that you will have the same impact, but nonetheless, a very painful experience to continue to focus on these issues. But i thank you. I wanted to go over a couple of things about your testimony to ask further details on. I agree, we need the f. A. A. To remain in the drivers seat when it comes to the certification process and thats what that legislation does, as you say, making sure that they have oversight over the employees and the process on a supervisory role and evening the system. Thats what chairman wicker and i have also agreed to in the legislation. I was a little not little, i was very surprised to hear that f. A. A. Administrator not fully support that concept today. Do you have any comments on that . Weve seen a consistent set of reports from f. A. A. Including a 20 i think it was a 2017 air transformation report thats full of and i refer to it in my written testimony that its full of Management Consulting baloney about goals and aspirations, but what it boils down to is a dedicated internal appears from the outside, a dedicated internal process that theyre going to withdraw from, you know, the direct involvement and certification. Apparently that includes appointing, removing and communicating with the boeing engineers doing a Public Service which is certification duties. So it seems to be deeply embedded and i was surprised, too, to see how resistant the administrator was to the mere fact, may, why dont you take a look at these folks, theyre not appointing the janitor. If they approve, you can remove. If they screw up, we all know people screw up and made an appointment and wish you hadnt and theres supervision in between because thats what weve heard from boeing engineers around the der system and oda system if when you have boeing on the boeing side, the Safety Culture can get overwhelmed by the profit and timeline pressures which always exist. Youve got no one else. Youre a boeing engineer, youve got to respond and youve got the f. A. A. Side, you dont know who they are. In the office boeing aviation Oversight Office have 27 engineers supposedly overseeing 1500 boeing engineers and all they look at reames of paper delivered and put rubber stamps to them. So, theres something, you know, delegation has been around a long time, but weve got to rebalance is in the way that your bill stated it. So i was indeed surprised. Well, thank you for that. I also, you know, i agree with you and thank you for keeping bringing up those numbers as relates to the Oversight Office itself. Clearly, our bill creates a new office and oversight is saying exactly the right level of expertise in Technology Oversight thats required. So hopefully that will be fixed. Its very frustrating to hear the administrator today not embrace these things as fully because its very hard for us. You know, i am ooh, we can pass a law, but i mean, and were going to stay on top of the f. A. A. , i can guarantee you that. So were going to get the right work force there. I want today i wanted to to you, you mentioned the red team, the blue team thing, the idea of holistic approach. Im interested because of what you said about the n. T. S. B. Do you think that the n. T. S. B. And nasa could play a bigger role in the upfront part of the certification process when a typed certificate is being considered and these ideas or new technology is being considered . Do you think outside group like that of the experts at the front end of the process could better identify risks . I think its very possible. Im going to draw a little on what javier delewis who lost his sister in the et302 crash said. Javier is an mit Aerospace Engineer and he submitted testimony today. Getting a new aircraft designed and certified is a Major National event and takes a hes really all hands on deck and he did support the fact of having a multiagency involvement at the beginning. In this case, we have a global duopoly of boeing and airbus n our case we have boeing, but its a Publicprivate Partnership, but along the lines, i understand that javier has also supported that given his deep knowledge at mit and Aerospace Engineering. So i would tend to agree. I see my time is expired, mr. Chairman, thank you. The tell us again, sir the name of the author of that paper. Javier. Jav ier. Deluis. De, space, luis. Do you have that paper today. It was submitted and i think it was submitted to staff. So we have so without objection that will be placed in the record. There are no other members, senator markey, were told yes. Yes. Im here, mr. Chairman. Youre recognized, sir. Thank you, mr. Chairman so much. Mr. Markey, do you have a copy of that document that you referred to, that was not predictive, but mentioned the 15 aircraft accidents that might occur . I think my staff has access to it and we will get it to you, mr. Chairman. Okay, well, lets put that in the record. Mr. Chairman, if i can help on that. When i submitted my written testimony, it was in it was included in that as well if my exhibits were included. Okay. Thank you, and mr. Markey, you are recognized. Thank you very much and i want to thank Michael Stumo and for being here today and your tireless work to put a light on this inexcusable tragedy and the need to reform our broken aviation certification system and again, i offer my condolences to you for the loss of your brilliant accomplished daughter. It was an unfortunate, unfortunate tragedy here that has taken her from you, but i admire so much what you and your wife have done to make sure you focus on this issue to guarantee that there is accountability and that the f. A. A. And boeing be made accountable. So i thank you so much because never again should we see having to suffer what you suffered. And im happy that administrative dickson just affirmed boeings legal responsibility for the defective 737 max. Now we need to guarantee that boeing cannot block your familys legal claims in court. So mr. Stumo, can you speak to boeings attempts to evade responsibility and speak to this i want to say its not just us, its 156 others that died on that crash and a lot of other families have been very active in their home countries, in canada, in europe, german, french, sweden, kenya, rwanda, many families have their individual hurts theyre trying to recover from. So im a bit uncomfortable just having the focus on me, but were in the u. S. And under covid were in washington, but there are others that are doing a lot, but you see, from our perspective we see a dichotomy between public actions and words and private behavior, where you have boeing repeatedly tell the camera that theyre very sorry, and mullenberg, calhoun, the new ceo who was around the whole era of certification of the max and made the decision against, on the board was on the board of directors when they made the decision against developing a new plane and extracting more value out of the aging 737 family, but they joyed apologized in public, they were sorry and we are going to make changes and working diligently to compensate and make everything right and then you look in the documents and they have a you know, they say no, we dont have to pay anything because the f. A. A. Certified it and that means the family doesnt have their own claims. Its not right and they know it thats why they didnt say it in public. They only said it in private. So what from your perspective, again, should everyone who is watching this hearing know about the families and the accountability you want from boeing on this issue . Boeing has a responsibility to produce safe planes. Theyre a Great Company with a great history that has lost its way with chasing profit and value engineering and getting rid of engineers and getting rid of talent over the time to extract profit and in delivering it to share buybacks and executives. We need to have, as a National Champion company for the u. S. , theyve got duties to america. Theyve got duties to passengers. Theyve got duties to us, and they could have made a great 21st century plane. They didnt. The f. A. A. Has to do its job ap not be a paper pushing agency, not be dogs watching tv. Im concerned that the sms Safety Management system, that sound like a decent idea, is not directly on point, that will fix the fact that the f. A. A. Is not directly involved in certification, that its more papers to push. And when you have a company thats dedicated to misleading and hiding things, that they will mislead it and hide it in the paper work when youre not on site. So thats what i think. So when you talked to the boeing officials, if you have talked to them. Are you or your lawyers have talked to them. How would you characterize their response back to you . Well, we dont talk to them much because we are all represented. A lot of times boeing would apologize to cameras about what happened, but only once when shamed into doing it did mullenberg actually turn to the families and say hes sorry and calhoun has not talked to us, but they havent apologized to families, theyve only advised to cameras. We havent talked to boeing. What did it tell you willing to apologize to the families . Its always a concern that its just a pr management issue. Meaning . Its not real. Its not real. They speak to cameras, but not to families. Meaning they just make some Public Statement that kind of satisfies the minimum requirement that they say that theyre sorry, but they dont want to actually have to speak with the families themselves in order to have that kind of an accountability. Yes, Ethiopian Airlines, the ceo sent all the families a letter of sorrow and apology early on. Now, Ethiopian Airlines has done a lot of other things wrong. Boeing cant do it and they could have. When i need to apologize to my wife, i dont do it to my camera or to somebody else, i do it to her and thats how you do it in human society. Absolutely, they have been responsible and theyre clearly engaged in a systematic cover up, and our job will be to make sure that every single piece of information is made available publicly so that we guarantee that this spotlight is so bright that we will not ever have to see a hearing like this have to be conducted, but not until we have collected all of that information. Not until boeing is made accountable in court will we, in fact, know of that we have done our job for you and for all of the families. We thank you for being here today in order to make sure that the voices of the families are heard. Thank you so much for your willingness to do this. Thank you. Mr. Blumenthal. Thank you. Thank you senator cantwell, thank you for being here today. And on so many other occasions lending your voice and face to this reform effort. Not just in memory of your daughter, but to save other lives and to you and all of the families that have lost loved ones, this committee has an obligation not only to express condolences, but to put our action where our mouth is and really stop reforms that, in fact, will prevent these kinds of tragedies in the future. You were here to hear administrator dixon and im just going to go through your testimony on the rebalance of delegation. You may have heard my question about the f. A f. A. A. Taking back the delegation involved in critical Safety System. Were you satisfied with the answer that he gave . No, no, there seemed to be an unwillingness to do so, and this seems this seems wrong. Weve got to have the red Team Involved with the systems that are deemed major, catastrophic or bad. We cant just rely on the internal checks and balances of the manufacturer, the vagaries are what ceo is on charge or boeing manager is in charge or who is on duty at the time. On the issue of lifetime limits for Type Certificates, i think you may have said to me at one point during our private conversations that right now, in effect, they can bolt a new system on to an old fuselage and just slide it through for certification. Were you satisfied with the answer that he gave me when i asked about limits on the lifetime of certificates . No, there needs to be a lifetime. They need to figure out a lifetime limit and you know, its more than the mcas in the system, theres a lot more involved because they didnt have an alert system like those required in aircrafts since 1982. The kind of flight crew alert system that has red, yellow and green lights all in one place that you can prioritize things that may or may not be going wrong. In this case because the max was an amended Type Certificate one of many in this whole fuselage, they had this whole ka caw cavaney caucaphony. Things. And sully sullenberg described it and he had a hard time pulling up. And when this max was 25 years old and now 28 years later they dont have it, is because they grandfather in old tech when they have, you know when new safety regulations come into effect, the new aircraft, its a method of skirting it apparently. Single string rudder controls. You know, various parts of the plane get grandfathered in, but 28 years ago you had to have a flight crew alert system. Maybe that would have made a difference alerting this crew, instead of shocking them with conflicting alerts. I think on the other issues that i asked him that are in your testimony on f. A. A. Certificati certification in effect equaling immunity for boeing, the culture of secrecy that we see, i think youd agree that his answers were totally unsatisfactory . Well, the answer has always been on secrecy, well be very, very transparent. Weve heard it as a family since the beginning and we havent gotten one document. Neither have we, no meaningful documents, at least in response to my question. So i can pledge to you, and i think others in the committee will join me in this view, that the bills now pending can be greatly strengthened and improved. Ive offered one. The mank Ranking Member and chairman have offered another. I think theirs is very commendable in the progress na it reflects. Im going to be offering amendments to mine and theirs in the markup. I hope there will be one that would in effect require a take back in delegation on those critical Safety Systems, require more transparency. Require an end to preemption so that families have their day in court, so that the courthouse doors are open to them in spite of f. A. A. Certification require that other Even Stronger reforms be adopted. I think your testimony and your work on highlighting how the f. A. A. Has become a captive of the industry, how it has become ineffective, you say a dog watching tv. How it has enabled the industry to put profits ahead of safety, all those points that youve made and all the work that youve done, i hope, will have an impact on this committee and i think whats needed is really radical, farreaching reform. The public demands it and the industry has reached a crossroads, a real turning point and it has choices to make, but i think congress can no longer leave those choices exclusively to the industry. I think that voluntary compliance delegated certification are going to be a thing of the past. And i want to thank you for your being a whistleblower and a watch dog, which is what we need. We need in effect, in this system, an institutional watch dog, not a lap dog. So thank you very much to you and your family for all the work that youve done. Thank you. Thank you, senator blumenthal. I want to follow up on a couple of things quickly. I have to run and vote, and if you see me dash out i think theyll hold it for me until i get there. And we introduced a bill with senator moran about the standards that wed like to see on an international basis and you mentioned captain sullenberg a couple of times so i wondered if you had given thought to a larger issue, how do we make sure that the pilot definitely need the f. A. A. System improved, but also want pilot standards dob there and if youd given any thoughts about that . Sure, aviation the u. S. Aviation system is inherently global. The boeing planes are sold everywhere, you know, families are riding everywhere and used to be f. A. A. s rules were a Gold Standard. But certainly, how do you you know, how do you have to the extent we improve here, how do you rightly have an extra territorial reach to what we do . I mean, certainly, the Human Factors approach and id like to and on the Human Factors, its all about not excessive reliance on the human, which is fallable, and to a smoking hole, you need the machine to be hardened and have redundancy and hardened, im going to make five mistakes before i go to bed tonight and pilots make mistakes and they have bad days, you cant rely on this, youve got to have the machine right, too. I guess im in favor of doing as best we can to have International Reach for the bill, the flight aviations in ethiopia and kenya. I believe ethiopian and kenyan families would agree. Its not that great. Generally i would be supportive. Thank you, mr. Chairman, ive got to run. Thank you, senator cantwell. And thank you all. If there are no other questions, then we will move to close the hearing. The hearing record will remain open for two weeks. During this time senators are asked to submit any questions for the record. Upon receipt each witness is requested to submit written answers to the committee as soon as possible. So thank you to both of our witnesses and thanks particularly to you, mr. Stumo. We very much appreciate your insights and just no way to express our condolences adequately. With that, this hearing is now adjourned. [inaudible conversations] during the summer months reach out to your elected officials with cspans congressional directory. It contains all the Contact Information you need to stay in touch with members of congress, federal agencies and state governors. Order your copy online today at cspan store. Org. The u. S. Senate is about to gavel in for a brief pro forma session which theyre holding every few days while in recess. Senators are working back in their home states