Transcripts For CSPAN2 Matthew Whitaker Above The Law 20240712

That for 13 months before general sessions resigned abruptly on the day after the election of 2018 and the president appointed me that day to be acting attorney general and ultimately bridge the gap between Jeff Sessions and bill barr. How did you become Jeff Sessions chief of staff . Were your friend of his . One of the things i talk about in this book is how i only met Jeff Sessions once before i was selected to be as chief of staff. I interviewed with them and talk to him many times but it was a mutual friend both in the white house and that the federal society that had recommended me to him and his people, and we bonded quickly over College Football and our love for good barbecue. It was a match made in heaven. One of the things you say about mr. Sessions recusal from the Russian Investigation, that it was personal and fact driven. Yeah. So i wasnt there when he did the analysis. He took over in february 2017 after he was confirmed and after the new administration came in, but having done sort of my own recusal analysis that took five weeks for me and my staff and the department of justice to complete, it is very fact driven. It is very personal decision, you know, kind of how it is done is methodical. I know that general sessions have been very outspoken that he believes he did the right thing. All i can do and what i described in this book is how it affected our work at the department of justice and the ultimate created kind of two Power Centers at the department of justice, the Attorney Generals Office and deputies attorney General Office for the purposes of the Mueller Investigation was acting attorney general. It was very difficult to operate in that averment as you can imagine but it also when i was appointed acting attorney general to validate that and return against a regular order in a normal chain of command like the department is used to. In your book you write that every american regardless of personal politics should be concerned by what i saw happen to President Donald Trump inside the u. S. Department of justice between 20172019. 2019. What did you see . Well, i saw so many things. What i primarily saw was a department of justice that at its best was a force for good and for long order in doing justice. And that its worst was a department that when it didnt follow regular order was not properly medicating investigations, was glossing over sort of basic and fundamental practices of investigations. For example, when there was no evidence or counter evidence was developed, they continued to go down the path and investigate crimes that ultimately as you saw in the Mueller Report were never established in the never was any evidence that supported those investigations. So again one of the reasons i wrote this book was to remind professionals at the department of justice, prosecutors especially but investigative agents, that we need to do, always do the right thing for the right reason, follow the timehonored practices that have put that it department of justice in its place in society and really have, have been unfortunately kind of hurt by these recent chapters that we saw at the department of justice. But by no means would i suggest in my book doesnt try to make the case that some of this was all people and every investigation. Quite frankly one of the reasons i wrote this book was a highly the important work of the great many women at the department of justice. Theres 110,000 professionals, so many of them, almost all of them do things the right way without a claim and make our country better because they are involved in the criminal justice system. One of the recurring themes in your book, tonight is this. Quote, what bothered me most of those members of the executive branch who put their own interests above those of the president. Can you give some examples of that . Yeah. I think one example i think is one were all pretty familiar with and that is out jim comey conducted the fbi and how there were, he and members of his senior staff were oftentimes shaping stories in the media. Theres a lot of evidence on the Public Record now about leaks were made to correct stories that were inaccurate or representations. Another person, andy mccabe who famously leaked the story friday he confines of the Deputy Attorney general in the Obama Administration regarding an investigation. That was all sourced from him through lesa page. I think there are those examples, other examples of where i really believe that one of the ways that we got off the path of the department of justice and that the fbi was individuals putting themselves and their own reputations ahead of the interests of the executive branch. When i say the interest of the executive branch, from the constitutional interest that makes our constitutional system so balanced and work on an everyday basis. Do you believe there is a deep state . You know, i would have said i think there are those individuals within the permanent bureaucracy, they are career officials, that do not believe that, in the president s agenda. Again it is a lawful and ethical agenda, and they resisted the implementation of that agenda. The nomenclature of whether they are a quoteunquote deep state is for others to decide how to define it. What i saw is also people that were not only working against the president s agenda as ahead of the executive branch but those that were unwilling to advance president agenda. What i say in the book is those people, if they really believed they cannot accomplish or support the president s agenda, again, as long as it is lawful and legitimate, they should run for president based on their worldview. I think the president s priorities that we saw at the department of justice were lawful and ethical. Everyone that is in the executive branch, he goes another thing i talk about in the book, the unitary executive theory, everybody should pull in the same direction. Im surprised its controversial as it is but ultimately the American People through the Electoral College elect the president of those president s are not entitled to implement their agenda. You describe the attitude of some of those people at doj. They view donald trump as a quoteunquote dangerous interloper. Yeah. And i think they viewed several of us in that way. They view us as outsiders, those that are not of washington and of this i guess elite world, but this is the beauty of our system in the United States, is that people with good ideas can come to washington, d. C. , can win elections and can try to advance those priorities. You can tell from the way i describe it, i believe so much in the system and i believe in america and not just sort of the elites are in our major cities like washington, d. C. And new york and other places but all of us. We are all a part of it and one of the things will trump did which surprise a lot of people is he gave voice to a lot of people that felt forgotten, a lot of people from places like where im from, des moines, iowa, where it is flyover country where you really believe that the coastal elites dont understand why you value your way of life, why you like having a grill in your backyard and why you like having sort of an aboveground pool and all the kind of things that, you know, and target shooting, all the kinds of things we celebrate and do in places like iowa where im from. Mr. Whitaker, are you prepared for the media when you came into the acting ag position . Yeah. Im not sure i could have ever expected the attention and the sadness with which i was thrust on the National Stage. I was ready for the job. Ive done 13 months of chief of staff of the attorney general and you have the department of justice operative. I had relationship with a glint in the executive branch and other places. Ive been a u. S. Attorney for five and half years in the Southern District of iowa so i knew the department of justice very well, its mission and its people. The media was, even though i id been a contributor on cnn and thought that i knew how the media covered stories, i was not ready for the amount of not only reporters that were following me stories, but just their insatiable desire for new angles, new breaking news, and just how bitterly partisan also it had become. I do continue to believe that the mission of the department of justice is not political. It is to do justice in every case, but at the same time i would have to say i was surprised by the media spotlight that the filming when i became acting attorney general. Operationally, when the attorney general recuse himself from the Russian Investigation, how does that work in doj and how you kept uptodate on developments . Well, i wasnt. And once i became chief of staff to attorney general sessions the whole office of attorney general, it was called, oag for short, was recused as well. When i became chief of staff i wasnt at all he knew about the Russian Investigation is what i saw on tv and every night after work i would be subjected to if i wanted to if i cared to watch the news. I didnt learn anything about the actual investigation until after i became acting attorney general. And when you became acting, where you briefed into the whole investigation at that point by rod rosensteins . I was, and others, but it was not immediate. This is one of the things i think we all need to appreciate about the moment in time, is i was smart enough to know that if i wanted it to, it could dominate my every waking moment i knew there were so much more work we were doing. Obviously the highest profile work we were doing it though so much of the work. I brought in the u. S. Attorney from Eastern District of california, greg scott. Hes just a kind of great individual with a ton of experience, not only elected county da but also twotime u. S. Attorney for the Bush Administration with me and now he returned to this administration to do it again because he enjoys it so much. He was a perfect person to comment at the put him in sort of my eyes and ears and made them responsible on my behalf to manage and interact with the mueller team. I just could not, for various reasons, but especially because i didnt want to put that amount of time and attention with Everything Else that we had to do and the priorities we had, i needed help and brought him in to help. What is your impression of and interaction with rod rosensteins . I have no the former Deputy Attorney general since 20042005 time frame when we came in as u. S. Attorneys. So i have known him for over a decade, and he has spent he had spent 30 years in the department of justice. He has an impressive resume and again an impressive educational background and a lot of experience inside the department of justice, and i describe in this book my impressions on it. I think the American People saw him again on National Stage in the hearings last week, and i think he is, i dont think theres any doubt that he would say he was doing the best he could in a difficult circumstance. I have in the book a lot of questions for him especially some of the decisions he made along the way before i was ever at the department of justice. Whats the period on this whole thing . Now, judge osullivan has john gleeson investigating the department of justice is a view on this. When does it end . Thats a great question. I think when it ends is when really have a full accounting of this period of time. As i i watched sort of the vars people, whether its the flynn investigation, what is this an issuing new subpoenas to get to the bottom of it, everywhere i go and travel, the first thing folks asking is when will anybody be held accountable for this . That are obviously so much of life depends on whether you are cheering for the red team for the blue team. Thats very unfortunate. One of the things i try to do, if youre a long order fairminded supporter of justice, then you want certain answers to these questions so that we can learn the lessons. I think general barr was talking about that earlier this week, is how to some extent the job of the attorney general is to figure out what happens to make sure it doesnt happen again. Certainly this will be around through the summer. I think john dirhams report is going to be very important. I think what Lindsey Graham is doing in the senate and the Senate Judiciary committee is going to be very important. Again, everyone ultimately will have to come to their own conclusions because fairness and objectivity seems to have left our society sometime around 2016. Devin nunes, congressman devin nunes wrote the forward to your book. He did. One of the things when my book came out, devin nunes pointed out a very i think important fact that i knew at the moment i was appointed but im not sure i articulate as well as he did, and that is i found myself in this obstruction of justice trap that was set because, really if you look at every moment in time, whether it was january of 2017 when the mueller, before the Mueller Investigation even happened, when it was crossfire hurricane, there was no evidence of the collision theory. You look at sort of the text between stork and page, the fbi lawyer, the suggested it was no big bear their i think was the tech. Look at the Mueller Investigation self and it did not find any relationship between anyone from the Trump Campaign and the russian government. I think what we found ourselves included myself was this obstruction of justice trap that was said looking for anyone to interfere with the sort of contact investigation will become the Mueller Investigation. And i sensed that. Im not sure articulate it but i sense that was soon as i got briefed the first time. Mr. Whitaker, what are the rules that independent counsel as opposed to special counsel . So the independent counsel statute expired in 1999 and thats what ken starr was appointed most famously, and that was the statute. Oversight of judges and you sort of separate and distinct from the department of justice and didnt really have a opening for the executive branch. People saw what happened to bill clinton in the whitewater investigation and to think it was almost bipartisan agreement that we dont need that to happen again, the way it happened. In an attempt to not have the repeat of that, of the ken starr investigation, the department of justice past the regulation thats called the special counsel regulation, and that governs what bob mueller was appointed, Pat Fitzgerald in the Scooter Libby prosecution was also appointed under that statute i believe. It has been you some time to time where the independent of the department of justice and independent of the executive branch could be put into question. Its very discretionary and to win it can be of limited but puts protections, especially in the firing of the special counsel, makes it sort of be for cause instead of just at the will of the discretion of the department of justice and ultimately the president. It is something that again i think as outlined in the book unconstitutional and i think should be eliminated or dramatically reformed. I set out a couple ways the packet happen. We have 93 u. S. Attorneys in the United States that all do their jobs every day with great discretion and great judgment, and i think oftentimes as you see both general sessions in general barr do is appointing the u. S. Attorneys that wholly to continue to do their own jobs but to do discrete functions within the department of justice, has been a triedandtrue way to ultimately make sure there is insulation in these investigations but also make sure they continue to report to be part of the executive branch. I should ask you this before we started the interview, but as the acting attorney general do you get the title of general whitaker as well . People give that to me. I dont know if its something you receive but i have, ive been called matt, matthew, ive been called a you and have also been called general. It was in honor of a lifetime to serve in this administration and served as acting attorney general. The one thing i dont get is a painting in the department of justice, so thats that is certainly something that doesnt come with the office. Matthew whitaker, was a Robert Mueller well utilized . You know, i really think that what happened and one of the subjects i talk about in this book with bob mueller is that we all saw with our own eyes him testify, and i think there were a lot of hopes and dreams put in to his testimony, that that would turn this sort of 400 plus page report into television event. It would bring to life and make a movie out of the book. Obviously we saw he did not seem to have the command of a lot of his investigation. I know when i testified in front of the house judiciary committee, if id answer the question with i take your question and waited for another question upon saying that statement, i think most people would have been baffled, like a lot of us were in watching Robert Mueller testify. I think ultimately, you know, he is a leader. He is a marine, a decorated vietnam veteran who obviously he certainly been ten years in the fbi as its director. Hes a u. S. Attorney. He had that everything you could do at the department of justice with distinction i would add. I said a lot of positive things when bob mueller was appointed as special counsel and i still believe that today, but i think youve taken advantage of by his staff. Ultimately, that product that is Mueller Report is not a product that he wrote. I think it was written by people that wanted to score political points, and its to that end something i criticized in my book and that they couldve been done a different way. It was unnecessary under the regulation and it seemed gratuitous in hindsight. What did you learn about doj oversight of the fbi . I used to say when i was United States attorney before ever came to washington, d. C. , that the fbi was nominally part of the department of justice. I think one of the things everyone needed to make sure we do and continue to do is to have the fbi director follow the proper reporting mechanisms. Because it is not an independent branch of the executive branch or the department of justice, and there is a chain of command. I think there is, i think especially jim comey at a dont talk about this in the book but i talk about this before, as i do think jim comey really tried to make the fbi independent from the executive branch and the department of justice, and it think it was really attention. You could see that in some of the anonymous reports and stories that came out during the Obama Administration as to have jim was running his own play. Famously manifest and the kind of what he did with Hillary Clintons case where he did not follow regular order and he announced really kind of what, kind of a declination, which we never do. We never announced declination to explain the evidence that we found, but thats exactly what he did in the heavily clinton email situation. Much to the surprise and disappointment of his bosses, both the Deputy Attorney general and the attorney general in the Obama Administration. So i mean, i think thats one kind of very public way that it think his push to make the fbi more independent from the department of justice in the executive branch was a complete and utter disaster. One of the things you cite in your book is the fact that former attorney general eric holder had called himself president obamas we man, and that it is important to have an attorney general you can rely on. Is that correct. Was yeah, at a think theres a lot more to that. I think the interesting thing as i looked at the criticism, when holder said that there was a media, and in addition to the way weve always treated the jfk rfk relationship was kind of of course the president should have an attorney general he should have complete confidence in, that that will not run their own play or do things outside of the chain of command. When the shoe is on the other foot, when someone like bill barr, for example, is viewed as doings things supportive of the president which i think bill barr is literally doing kind of the work of the attorney general, the wind that criticism comes it always seems to be only attorney generals that are republican and for republican president s. All attorney generals need to follow the law and to think consistent with the law, and the policies of the department of justice. Again, i continue to be surprised that general holder called himself president obamas wingmen, but at the same time i think that the president needs to have absolute confidence in his attorney general. And matthew whitaker, in your book above the law you write about general holder and you say quote, i would argue that his above the law moral grandstanding is largely responsible for the socalled ferguson the fact with 72 please officers more reluctant to stop and question suspicious people than they were in 2014, according to pew research. Yeah, i do place a lot of responsibility of what happened in policing special in a major cities after ferguson, and other situations as to kind of a pullback of the police, which i think jim comey termed the ferguson effect. Were seeing sort of some of this manifest now in our major cities, and i think its an overall conversation that continues to be had as to how do the Police Protect and serve the communities and thats think that have have the confidence of those communities . Some of these voices that i am hearing has made me kind of think about my experience at the department of justice. For five and half years as a user can i work closely with state and local police to bring cases, but i think general ashcroft who is a personal hero of mine said it best. That well done policing actually enhances liberty and actually enhances freedom, the vets we need to get to. We need to get to the model and find a way that policing in every major city and in every small town, place or i am from is done the right way so that community has confidence. But do know is first and most, and the data shows is, who is hurt the most is when the police pullback are the minority communities. That the challenge and the discussion we are all having right now and i think we will continue to have. President trump called for an expedited investigation of what happened in minneapolis to mr. Floyd. What exactly is the attorney generals role when Something Like that happens . The attorney general through the Civil Rights Division at the department of justice obviously has a big role when it comes to excessive use of force and its a place where the department of justice has found itself many times in reviewing police conduct, civil rights of individuals has been violated and in doing things like pattern practice, review of training all those types of things. Not only in addition to what happened to george floyd was unacceptable, and consistent with everything we all know and we need to get to the bottom of it and make sure that situations like this never happen again. The department of justice can also through its funding mechanism to the office of Justice Programs can also fund Police Training and studies and all the kinds of things, the data we need to address some of these situations. We usually in cases like this we would do an investigation with the state who is handling this now through their attorney general, and share information and make sure i go has the same set of facts and then have a conversation as to how to best handle the case. I note it is been reported the main officer who had his knee on the neck of george floyd in the horrific video, that its very difficult to watch, that he had allegedly had a plea agreement with both the state and the fed. There are dual sovereignty are in the situation and you can see both state and federal cases come out of this. Back to your book, quote, the president ial policy closest to my heart was showing support for local Law Enforcement who are suffering a major crisis of morale after it use being thrown under the bus by the Obama Administration. Can you expound on that. Was yeah. So everywhere we went and its really, really manifested every time we went outside of washington, d. C. And talked to local police and sheriffs and the deputies and the officers, is would say, you know, we change the tone from washington, d. C. We are not want to paint with a broad brush. We are not going to blame every Police Department for the failings of a few officers that are not doing their job consistent with the law, consistent with policy and practice. I think the goal all we should be and always has to be that every child, no matter the neighborhood, should be able to go play in the front yard. I think we have made advances in reducing Violent Crime in our major cities. Its one of things thats lost in this whole discussion of what happened to george floyd, is that our communities were increasingly safer. Again, because of good policing, primarily by local Police Departments and sheriffs departments. Again i think we can always get better. I think its what makes i wrote the piece last week. I think we can always get better and learn from these horrific situations like george floyd, and the police can improve training, improve their practices, but i cant find anywhere in any training or any manual what would happen to george floyd was recommended or trained. That seems to me to be a real, thats what i think we need to learn is how to do things how do things like this happen . How do we have, i think in 2019 we had nine or ten blacks that died an armed at the hands of the police, and think we need to get down to the bottom of that and roll up our sleeves and come up with a solution as to how to better train officers come how to better hire officers and when you have a problem with an officer, how better to make sure they dont have a badge and again and sort of the authority under the color of law. One of these incidents, even though we only had a handful, i think nitrogen last year, even one of these incidents is too many. This is where we got to continue to have this discussion, to make sure its factbased, that the data supports whatever we are implementing, and go from there. This is where the federal government has such a powerful voice in the department of justice, a powerful voice and why white bill barr is so important for this discussion that were having nationwide. So i made the defund the Police Movements in the critiques of Police Unions i think it was camped in new jersey basically started its police force afresh. Camden, new jersey. If that an approach you would support . There are so many Police Departments, how the Police Departments and each one is unique. For example, the one in my hometown of ankeny, iowa, which is a a town of 50,000 people ad has its own Police Department, theres a reason to start fresh in ankeny, iowa. But at the same time again this is where i think that the political leaders are failing their people by throwing their hands up in the air and not being able to come up with a solution to some of these problems. I look at minneapolis which is had obviously oneparty rule, and i lived there for five years so i know minneapolis well. Theyve had one party rule. The city council and the mayor. Theyve had a chance, the reform begins there. I think the only Police Department im aware of that doesnt have sort of political responsibility to the city leaders is in kansas city with the state appoints the police commission. They had all sorts of political corruption challenges in the 30s that they needed a different kind of reform, but i think each city through its Political Leadership needs to come up with the necessary and appropriate reforms. But its the Political Leadership and those politicians are responsible to the voters and thats somehow lost in this whole discussion is the people at minneapolis need to demand accountability and change. If the mayor and city council are unwilling to do that they need to find a new then needs to happen every community, in every city and every town. To go back to where we started, mr. Whitaker, did you see evidence of russian it appears in the 2016 election, and was the concern about the 2020 election as well . Yet. This is, im so glad you asked the question because this is where this format gives me a great opportunity to say two things. It to separate collusion and interference. 116 theres no doubt that the russians, the chinese, the iranians, North Koreans and others try to affect, influence our election. Same thing in 2018 quite frankly when i was at the department of justice. Fully expect the same in 2020. The American People need to be sophisticated as to where they get information. They need to make sure its well verified and well vetted, do a good job in making outlets like rt which is russia today financed by the russian government, make them file a Foreign Agent registration act pilot. Did i see any evidence of collusion . I did that and i think the Mueller Report points out that there was no collusion. But did the russians and others tried interfere or affect our absolutely but i did that see where one single vote was changed based on that. Form acting attorney general matthew whitaker, above the law above the law the inside story of how the Justice Department tried to subvert President Trump is a name of the book and we appreciate you being our guest on booktv. It was my honor. Thank you so much. Heres a look at some Publishing Industry news. Last week a Queens County Court Dismissed the motion to stop the publication of a a forthcoming book by President Trumps in these mary trump that is critical of the president. Robert trump the president brother has now filed a second motion to the new York Supreme Court to halt the books release based on the argument that ms. Trump had violated a a nondisclosure agreement that she signed. Her book, too much and never enough, scheduled to be available in late july. Also last week former Trump Administration White House Press secretary Sarah Huckabee sanders shared a a passage from her forthcoming memoir speaking for myself that is critical for menasha security advisor john bolton who also just released a book on his time in the trump white house. According to axios, she wrote that john bolton quote was a classic case of a senior white house official drunk on power who went forgotten that nobody elected him to anything. Her book will be published september 8. In other news the New York Times reports lackland bookstores after working to keep up with the demand for books on race in the wake of the recent protest against police brutality. Owner of semicolon bookstore in chicago said quote, weve had a huge financial boost. We went from moving 3000 books a week the 50,000 books the week. About ten ten bestselling boon race are responsible for roughly half of presales including how to be antiracist which is currently in its 18th 18th rep. Also in the news according to npd bookscan, print book sales rose close to 23 for the week ending june 20 june 20 led by d for books on race as well as father day sales. As the coronavirus continues to affect the nation, upcoming book festivals are amending the programming. Last week the printers row lit fest in chicago canceled the 36th annual festival and the texas book festival will now be held virtually started october 31. Booktv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news. You can also watch all of our archived programs anytime at booktv. Org. Tonight on booktv in prime time we talk with republican senator Martha Mcsally of verizon about our military career. She is the First Female Fighter Pilot to fly in combat. It was prizewinning reporter mary jordan discusses the life and influence of first lady melania trump. Watch our indepth interview with James Stavridis discussed his naval career, local security leadership. That all kicks off at 8 30 p. M. Eastern. Visit booktv. Org Checker Program guide for full schedule information. Now on booktv said after words robin hood ceo wes moore looks at the 2015 baltimore uprising following the death of freddie gray. Hi les, how are you . Its so great to give our audience the opportunity to get to know bestsellin