Posted by the National Low IncomeHousing Coalition, my name is dave darcy and were glad youre able to join us for this live conversation with president and ceo day diane yentel and ibram kendi. We encourage you to submit questions for doctor kendi and if you start to have a question for our support team, click here on that right side of the screen. The event will be available on the site within 24 hours and is now my pleasure to turn it over to diane yentel. Thank you dave and welcome everyone to todays conversation with doctor ibram kendi on Racial Equity before and after the covid19 pandemic. Im glad almost 5000 people have registered today. Im heartened and encouraged by the level of interest in this topic so i am diane yentel, president and ceo of the National Housing coalition, where a Membership Organization dedicated to achieving socially just Public Policies and ensuring that the lowest income people have decent, accessible and affordable homes. And as part of that work you have worked on disasters, housing response, recovery and rebuilding for many years through our Disaster Housing Recovery Coalition and weve done this work recognizing that decades of Structural Racism and other structural inequities put their countries lowest income and most historically marginalized people, people of color, people with disabilities, people experiencing homelessness , lgbt people, people reentering their communities from jails and prisons at most risk of being harmed by disasters. And without our dedicated and intentional focus and effort, we know they will be left behind in the housing recovery and rebuilding so covid19 is the latest disaster to hit our country with the same pattern of harm and neglect caused by decades of Structural Racism. And in this disaster is different in some ways, its unprecedented in scale and magnitude and duration , but our urgent need to center Racial Equity and equity for all historically marginalized people in the response and recovery is as critical as ever. The coronavirus clearly is disproportionately harming people of color and its illustrating in even starker relief the historical and systemic racism and discrimination. And i believe that we have an obligation in our housing and our homelessness work on covid19 to center Racial Equity and at this moment when we are working together to get congress to fund over 100 billion in rental assistance and other critical housing and homelessness dollars, doctor kennedys work is so important. He urges us in really profound and practical ways to develop policies and programs that are explicitly antiracist. And he offers us guidance on how to do it. So this moment that were in right now is unique in so many ways. Most very terrible ways. But just as we are seeing covid19, in covid19 maybe one of the clearest and most obvious manifestations of Structural Racism and who is harmed and who is impacted by covid19, we also have this tremendous possibility with hundreds of billions of dollars flowing to states and cities in response to undo some of that harm, to reverse inequities, to center Racial Equity and Racial Justice in the response. So im thrilled to have doctor ibram kendi joining. Doctor kendi is one of americas foremost historians and leading antiracist forces. The hat is a New York Times bestselling author and director of the Antiracist Research and policy center at American University in washington dc, a professor of history and international relations, doctor kendi is the author of stamped from the beginning, a definitive history of racist ideas in america which won the National Book award for nonfiction and his most recent book how to be an antiracist reshapes the conversation about Racial Justice in america so doctor , im a big fan of your work. You for joining me today. Im glad we were ableto have this conversation. We have a lot to discuss in an hour and theres so much of your wisdom and work that i want to glean for our collective housing and homelessness work but i want to start with some of the foundational components of your work that can guide the rest of our conversation about Racial Equity in housing during and after covid19. So most if not all of your published work centers around racism being a core tenets of the american way. And foundational to our country. And around the need for us to overcome the pervasive racism through the work of antiracism so id like to start there if we can. You say its not enough to not be racist. We have to be actively antiracist so you can you describe, define the different terms and talk about what you need mean by that. So i define a racist as someone who is expressing a racist idea and racist ideas typically suggest a particular racial group is better or worse, superior or inferior then another or this is whats wrong or right about this racial group so i define a racist as someone whos expressing a racist idea or supporting a racist policy with their actions or even in action. And throughout the course of american history, almost every person who classifies being racist denied that they were being racist. Denied that their ideas were racist, denied that their policies were racist so the term not racist, i am not racist has really always been the sound of that denial. And ive never really been able to figure out what being a not racist truly is other than someone denying their own racist ideas, denying the policies thattheyre supporting. But i do have a clear sense of being what an antiracist is. If a racist is expressing an idea of racial hierarchy and an antiracist is one who is expressing antiracist ideas that theres nothing wrong or right, superior or inferior with any of the racial groups. If a racist is supporting a racist policy that is leading to inequity and injustice, then an antiracist is someone who is supporting a policy, an antiracist policy thats leading to equity and justice so theres really no in between diana, as you know hierarchy andinequality. So just as no in between notions of racial policies that need to equity and inequity and so again, i dont really know what it means to be not racist but i have a very clear sense of what it means to be racist and antiracist and so im encouraging americans to the antiracist because if theyre not and chances are they are being racist. Part of this definition or this idea is that being racist, its not a fixed identity. It can be a temporary state of being and that all of us that are working towards being antiracist have ads and flows. It certainly including me and including you. And you wrote about in your book, you wrote about your own process of going from eating racist to being, working towards being actively and consistently antiracist so can you talk about your process and how that applies to others. I think the process for me was largely coming to terms with definitions. So having a very clear sense of what it means to be racist or even antiracist. Can you imagine if you do not have a very clear definition of racist, its easy to deny that youre racist because we dont even know what that truly is so first and foremost it was coming to terms with basic definitions but then i think one of the problems with classifying someone as racist is as you mentioned, we are actually thought that a racist is a fixed category. Its literally a person is, not what aperson is. Its literally in their dna. Its in their heart, its in their bones. That someone becomes a racist. And thereby a racist is an evil bad person. And theres really no remedy for those racists, they cant be cured. And so with that type of perspective i can understand why so Many Americans arelike no, im not racist. Im not a bad person but thats actually not how we should understand racism or an even antiracism and these are descriptive terms. They describe what the person is doing at any given moment and the reason why this is critical is because see an example. You have an abolitionists when who they would emphasize people like William Lloyd garrison would say things like and call for immediate emancipation area that slavery is horrible. We should not live another day. In those moments they were being antiracist. William lloyd garrison and other white abolitionists sometimes in the very next moment would say the reason it should end is because its so evil and its so evil that it is literally made black people into brutes. So we need to not only free them but civilize them. That very next moment they were being racist. They were essentially like slaveholders imagining these enslaved black people as subhuman. So in talking about how racist isnt an insult per se, its a changeable state of being. And its just a fact, its not necessarily a judgment. I think its really important because definition really then compels all of us to name and call out racism when we see it and i think that a lot of people and maybe especially white people feel uncomfortable calling things racist. Theyd rather say, wed rather say there Racial Disparities or racial inequities in the outcomes and thats true but its not the full truth. And in being unwilling to call something that is racist racist , we can do more harm than good. Can you talk about whythat is . Where it can lead to when we talk only about racial outcomes and not about the racist systems that created those outcomes. I think with anything, when were talking about human beings and when were talking about problems, it is absolutely critical to name problems for what it is and that, even if its a personality characteristic of one of us, the characteristic of americaor an institution , the first step in receiving treatment and it being remedied and it changing, is identifying the true problem. And i think its the same thing with racism. Its hard, particularly if we are self identifying our own ideas as racist or self identifying our country or our institution or our sector of society as racist, its hard which is why so many people in some institutions in so many societies refuse to grow and refuse to change because the first factor in that growth is recognizing the problem and so i just dont know how we as a nation can transform ourselves if we dont truly recognize the true source of this pain and that true source is racism. It looks like the r word. Its not the r word. Its not a purge or an intern. And its not the equivalent of an i dont like you. Indeed, someone by the name of Richard Spencer once said that. That he lectured to white people that racist is a pejorative term. Its the equivalent of saying i dont like you and he just so happens is a white supremacist and White Supremacists have been spreading those ideas particularly towards white people so that they will continue to deny their own racism so that those White Nationalist organizers can recruit them based ontheir racism. And also in not naming racism as racism and talking only about the outcomes, it can lead, it gives room for people to blame personal failings on the outcomes rather than the structural inequities racism that created those outcomes and i think in housing, when we talk about this as an example , we know that people of color are disproportionately low income and are disproportionately homeless. And then some see those outcomes and say well, its a result of personal failings and actually ben carson the secretary of hud today talked about how poverty is a state of mind and that kids should reform like he did. So he sees poverty as a personal failing so his proposals are about fixing character flaws in individual people when that so clearly and probably purposely misses Structural Racism that causes these disproportionate outcomes. So aside from ben carson i think there is now a broad understanding by many of us in the Housing Field that many past housing policies are racist. Redlining, subprime loans. A lot of other housing policies fell more into the race neutral or race blind, colorblind category and ultimately they also do equally or if not more harm to people of color so can you talk a little bit about or give us examples of how race neutral policies and actually harm people of color and perpetuate Racial Disparities . In the 1960s and certainly by the 1970s, that is when a lot of affirmative action policies were put in place. And the racist reactions to affirmative action policies that were actually leading to reductions in racial inequities from state contracts to admissions and highly selective colleges and universities, their reaction was to create this framing of a race neutral policy versus a race conscious policy area they created this idea that a policy that has no racial language in it , is race neutral and not racist and a policy like an affirmative action policy that has racial language in it is reversed racist or racist. And in fact, when you look at the history of american racism, the vast majority of policies that americans collectively considered now to be racist did not have any raciallanguage in the. So you mentioned of course the housing policies, we can go to boating policies and literacy tests to grandfather clauses did not have any racial language in them. Even the u. S. Constitution itself which essentially made it such that enslaved people were 3 5, there was no racial language so just because a policy does not have any racial language and it does not mean it is antiracist. So again if were thinking about policies as either racist orantiracist , the frame of a race neutral or a race conscious policy falls to the wayside and we can lace that framing with if a policy is leading to racial inequities, then its racist area if a policy is leading to Racial Equity, its antiracist and the reason why for many people who are supporting racist policies, the reason why they want us to conceive of this idea of a race neutral policy is because they do not want racist and antiracist policies defined based on their outcomes cause if we define all policies as racist , antiracist based on their outcomes and they then will have the burden of proof, proving that their policies somehow is not racist as opposed to us as we do now. And as far as im concerned you need antiracist policies leading to equities and justice and let me just say very quickly also, when you have a racial inequity, theres only two causes. Either its to provoke a policy that is favoring the disfavor in particular racial groups for its because theres a thing wrong or even right with a particular racial group. If youre a policymaker like ben carson, you and your not instituting policies that are leading to inequities, i should say equity or justice or you dont want to be blamed for the persistent inequities under the administration, then youre pointing to the only other option which is this the problem is the people,not my policy. How do we create antiracist housing and homelessness policies from the start . Where do we start and how do we create these policies can correct or even achieve Racial Equity . Id suggest first and foremost figuring out the true source of the problem. Meaning what are the racial inequities and so collecting that not only the sort of quantitative data but even the qualitative data area speaking to the people to truly seek to understand the source of their housing harms. So once you have a clear and consistent and sophisticated and complex understanding of the problem, then from there, then from the evidence and research and the data or from the stories of low income people , you can then get policies based on that research or i should say create policies based on that research that have the capacity to alleviate the harm that has been more or less expressed through that resource and then they become test cases. In other words admission policies. Offer these policies reducing racial inequities and if they dont, then we shouldnt also blame the people, we should go back to the drawing board and innovate new antiracist policies and keep testing policies in different places based on different circumstances until we have a sense of what policies work or we use policies that actually are working in certain cities than others. So theres so much that we can apply that to now especially with covid19 and with new resources. Going to communities to recover so certainly were seeing a tremendous amount of Racial Disparity in covid19 and in who gets sick, who dies, who loses their jobs, who is harmed so you created i think very recently a covid19 racial data tracker. Can you talk about the project and what you hope to achieve with it, what you are planning sofar. So we started calling for states to release racial Demographic Data on covid19 patients in early april. At the time only a handful of states had released breakdowns of was being affected by race and who was being killed by the second week of april, more and more space releasing this Demographic Data and there was no place. The federal government was not presenting and collecting this data so my colleagues at the Antiracist Research and policy center partnered with the covid19 tracking project to begin collecting the data and ultimately with the efforts to present the data and we, our site went live thismorning. But not only did we want to sort of collect and present all of the racial Demographic Data, weve been able to compile the most comprehensive data sets available. We also have to build a network of people in different states who are calling for this data. And who are continuing the call to this data because some states have only released infections and others have not released debts and were finding that in state after state, particularly in the midwest and certainly in the southeast, black people are disproportionately dying of covid19. Were finding in states like new mexico and montana that native people are disproportionately infected or dying of covid19. Were finding Asian Americans in states like alaska are disproportionately infected. Were finding that native hawaiians and other Pacific Islanders are disproportionately affected in hawaii. Were finding that Latin Americans are in many states disproportionately infected with covid19 so were finding in state after state people of color are bearing the disproportionate burden of infection. So im sorry, i think i said wow just as you were, i didnt realize you weresaying the website so can you repeat the website again . Covidtracking. Com race. What incrediblyimportant work. And the disease itself is obviously not racist but the outcomes so clearly are doing disproportionate harm to black, latino, native people and the harm is made possible bydecades of racist policies. Its like this moment is a crystallization of the harm that Structural Racism can do. So can you talk a little bit more about that and talk about how have racist policies led to black and brown people disproportionately dying from covid19. Sure and i think its critical to also talk about when americans, particularly by the second week of april began to learn about these Racial Disparities, first argument to explain it was that people of color were not taking the virus as seriously or were not social distancing as such, as much as white people. Then when predominantly white sort of crowds started protesting to open the space back up, that argument of course hardly held any weight. So it began to switch to well, black people are dying at higher rates because they have more preexisting conditions. Then it was never explained why black people statistically, have not explained why or ifit is explained , if black people are apparently, its because we dont take care of our health as well as lets say white people. Were not making as many fine Health Choices or so ultimately for Many Americans , there remained a blame for people of color being infected at higher rates. But the studies show otherwise. And actually, a recent study came out that found employment, access to highquality medical care, poor air and Water Quality were more predictive of people of color dying of infection and death from covid19 thenpreexisting conditions. So if we break those down, first employment. Employment when you think about the history of racist policies, youre talking about the history of policies that have historically led to people of color not essentially being as likely to be employed. Before this latest recession, even though the president was touting the lowest black unemployment record in history, black people were twice as likely to be unemployed as white people. Black people and white people with the same qualifications who had, when a black person has a different sounding name , theyre less likely to receive callbacks and we can go with all of the sort of studies that show how and why black people are disproportionately unemployed and certainly its not the result of their inferior behavioral traits. Access toHealth Insurance. When studies, when the refusal particularly of Southern States to expand medicare had had a disproportionately negative effect on people of color who are disproportionately poor in those Southern States, that decision was a racist decision. And even black people and the latin xp people are more likely to not have Health Insurance in this country than what people so those who advocate against ensuring that every Single Person in this country have Health Insurance are essentially advocating a racist position and we can go on and on about how black and native and latino communities are more likely to see pollution which is a major predictor but thatsnot the result of those. So each of these racist policies have a compounding effect. The racist policies, the racist hot housing policies that created segregated communities led to racist housing policies that meant we just invested in those communities led to increased poverty in these communities which leads to increased Underlying Health conditions and so on and less access to health care and here we are today. So i think when we start to think about the layering of racist policies and the compounding effect it has, it feels daunting to think about how we undo and unwind that. So what intentional changes can and should we be making now to address these racist legacies. I think it can be daunting and its certainly, it is daunting. But i also think its important for us to be clear i and for us to really particularly in the Housing Field or in any other field or sector of society, if we understand racism as a structure, its critically important for us to not, for us to constantly be thinking about the way in which all the different elements that make up that structure, all of the policies or lack thereof that are leading to black people being disproportionately homeless in this society and so we focus on the policies or we focus on the inequities and the policies that are harming them and we focus on the policymakers are either supporting us, seeking to transform those policies or who are resisting that and even instilling and supporting racist policies. I think we can clearly see what the problem is and who the problem is. And essentially what our focus on back who and so i think everyone of us has a job to do. In this sort of larger project or this larger antiracist struggle so we dont all every single one of us have to be final and continuously at the same time every single racist policy but we can fight against those in ourcommunity. We can fight against those within our area that are strategic and that we should focus on. Absolutely and on the, the congress has already passed several trillion dollars hundreds of billions that are going to local communities where communities are figuring out who to prioritize, how to use those dollars area what programs and policies to implement. And at the same time we are pushing congress to provide hundreds of billions more for housing and homelessness needs. So a lot of people are on this call today are people who are advocating directly with or influencingfederal policies or there are people at the state and local level who with those dollars are working on creating new programs. So what would youadvise us . What are the concrete actions we can take to ensure that these hundreds of billions of dollars are reaching the people we need the most and are being used to correct Structural Racism, to achieve Racial Equity . Sure. And for most im going to have to figure out a way to speak broadly enough that each person depending on what theyre advocating for can bring something but i think its critically important for each of us to distinguish the tween a program that can help an individual or uplift an individual in the program or even a policy change that can uplift a community. And let me give an example. You have some states that are funding informational commercials to try to get people of color to become more aware or to understand the seriousness of the threat of covid19 to their health. That at the most is going to only help those individuals who are hearing those commercials who dont already know that its a problem. Even though studies show that people of color as early as midmarch were taking this virus more seriously than white people. And so that is, anytime were thinking about behavioral change, but at the most only going to help individuals. If youre not going to help communities. So when you think about communities, we really need to be thinking about policy change and when i say policy change im not just saying city council sort of passing a policy that helps the community, and also talking about it can bewithin an institution. It can be within the neighborhood. It can be informal. And we need to be constantly thinking about will this money or will this program, will this policy reduce inequity, will it empower people who have historically been disempowered. Are those people part of the planning process. And im assuming that theres nothing wrong with the people and theres everything wrong with their condition and im striving through this work, through this funding, through this program or policy to help the people by helping or transforming their conditions area if were thinking from that standpoint, and were thinking from an antiracist standpoint. Im taking noting notes as your writing. This is really good stuff. So i want to talk more about the purpose of racist policies. I do think that many people who are on the call today understand our countries history of racism and racist policies from slavery to jim crow to intentionally segregating the country with racist housing policies but i think if you ask most people which came first , the racist belief or the racist policies , i think many would say that the policies follow the belief. But you say and you show really convincingly the opposite which i just find to be a really powerful insight. So can you talk a little bit more about how and why racist policies are advanced, who benefits area. So lets take the policy of blockbusting. Im sure everyone understands. And i think its first and foremost important for us to understand who benefited from blockbusting. And so those of you who may not befamiliar with blockbusting, it was in the mid20th century. When you had particularly a block or even a neighborhood that was historically white or a family of black family or even a lacking family moved in to the neighborhood and then typically the developer was a realestate agent or others would tell the other white families on that block , that black family is the first in this sort of avalanche or this invasion of black people and theyre going to bring your housing values down and theyre going to bring crime to the neighborhood and their kids are going to have to go to school withyour kids. So then, these white homeowners would be scared into selling so until the block with their by the blockbusting so who benefited from that . Real Estate Agents and speculators, those real Estate Agents were able to essentially do two things first. They were able to gain from this transaction of the white family left. They were able to gain from the transaction of the black family who then were brought to those busted urban neighborhoods. The developers in the suburbs who typically ushered those white families benefited. And typically those white families sold their homes, the low market value because they were so scared and then a flat of course to the suburbs and then typically those black homeowners had to buy those homes above market value. And so what was happening particularly for those white homeowners who are fleeing black people if they were being told racist ideas. And then the question becomes who benefited from that . Why were they telling them those racist ideas, why were those real Estate Agents, those regulators telling those white families, those racist ideas. Why were states and cities allowing this to happen through racistpolicies . So what im arguing is that there was a very clear sense of white peoples racist ideas and you know what, we can manipulate these white people through racist ideas to sell their property under market value, by this new property they dont necessarily need in the suburbs. And were going to benefit from it. So what im ultimately arguing is this is no different than you have currently the Republican Party recognized that they would benefit if black and latinx voters were disenfranchised. So then they instituted policies like voter id laws. Like banning early voting that then targeted africanamerican voters with surgical precision to quote a North Carolina vote but then they needed to justification. They needed to explain to their white voters why they were doing this and then they created idea of voter fraud. This longstanding racist idea that people of color are fraudulent voters. And then white people typically construe those ideas and supported these policies that were benefiting these political, these politicians who knew that the only way they can maintain office or even win an election was through a Voter Suppression so ultimately its just like slavery. People enslaving people to make money. First and foremost. They were supporting racist policies that allow them to enslave people so they could make more money and then they articulated expressed, produced racist ideas to justify what was making them money. Use of daddy those racist ideas and then americans started receiving those ideas. And then that how people became ignorant and hateful so thats what i show in my work that the racist policies and the self interest behind those racist policies and if theres ever effective, and understand it is the housing sector area and the racist policies that led to the racist ideas and theracist ideas that led to and are still leading to the ignorance and hate. So important. And another really, another really profound fighting that you share in stamps from the beginning is how you talk about how racial progress is always followed by new and more sophisticated racist processes. Donald trump calling barack obama example. Other people have noted before. Again, i think, thinking about it this way can feel like its insurmountable. What do we do . How do we overcome the persistent deepening of racism and the racist outcomes . How to we make sure that the train on the right track wins . We first realize that just because we have one again, meaning one again meaning instituted antiracist policy, doesnt mean that those are instituting and pushing for racist policies have stopped playing the game. What that means is, can you imagine, you walk off the baseball field or the court or football field thinking that the game is over, when the game is still being played. By recognizing that there actually is a history of racial progress that many of us have been taught and no, but theres a simultaneous history of racist talk for us and racist ideas and policies have become more sophisticated over time it. And when those who are benefiting from those racist policies, when they are deprived of their enslaved people they figure out a new way to ensure lack labor remained cheap which of course became sharecropping and serfdom and other. What we have to recognize in order to fight against, i think thats one of the reasons, that is one of the problems is if we understand it as a singular of history that we are constantly progressing in this nation and we dont recognize that theres such a thing as racist progress, then were not going to protect against it. In other words, antiracist policies need to be protected, too. I dont think people realize that and im hoping people begin to realize that through the work of [inaudible] and the antiracist policies need to be protected nor to be antiracist is a discipline, a constant action that all of us are required to do. You talk about in your books about how, because all of us are conditioned in a world that is racist and any country that is really rooted in and structured around antiblack racism, that all of us can perpetuate these racist ideas, even and maybe especially when may have the best of intentions. Sabine antiracist is really the discipline that requires work, constant action, this constant self reflection and awareness and willingness to admit mistakes. This is such a critically important part of your work for it, all of us are on this call who are working on influencing him and making public policy. The last broad question an turn to some the questions that have come in, but what Additional Guidance would you give us in doing this work of achieving housing justice and especially now during and after this time of covid19 . I think first and foremost, especially those who have been fighting for some time for housing justice, it can be, it is easy to become hopeless. It is easy to begin to believe that this pandemic of low income people to not have Affordable Housing is essential, will always be. Theres too many powerful political and economic forces, even ideological or even ideas that we are fighting against, and that cynicism can really him sort of grow within your what i would say in response to that is that first and foremost we have to recognize in order to bring about change we have to believe it, and in its possibility. This isnt, you know, this is coming from some of the studied the history of antiblack racism, has literally seen the worst and most horrific aspects of this countrys history. It is regularly sing that and observing that and being horrified by that today but through to all that i still believe in the possibility of change, not because ive some sort of crystal ball, but because i know, i have to believe in change. I have to come theres no other alternative. As hard as it is to believe in 1860 when you are one of 4 million enslaved people that in your lifetime youre going to use the jubilee, as hard it is to believe that when you know your ancestors have been enslaved in this country for about 250 years. Its still possible and we dont know the possibilities. We dont know whats possible and would bring it out. I just want to encourage people to never stop dreaming and to never stop conditioning a different type of america, a type of america where we wont even need to be fighting for low income Affordable Housing because there will not be any low income people. The idea of Affordable Housing and the need for Affordable Housing wont be as widespread as the belief that, the water is wet. Thats the type of america we need to create. Thank you for that. What an incredible, hopeful inspiring vision. We have had a lot of people send in questions in advance, over twitter solid as sku in our remaining few minutes i want to ask you a few the questions of that of come in from some of our audience. One is asking how do we build the political will for antiracist policies when so many people and voters in the u. S. Are either antagonistic or indifferent, and when policymakers know that voters vote for the own self interest . So i think we build that will by showing people that what they considered to be in their selfinterest is actually not in their self interest. In other words, when i encourage people to be antiracist, even middle income white people, i am not encouraging to be ultra stick. I am encouraging them what is in their intelligence or interest. I think its critical for us to recognize how more egalitarian america will be better for the vast majority of america, except a very, very, very tiny few, the vast majority of us will benefit. Its without question the case that lets a white people benefit more from racist policy obviously that people of color, that they would benefit, too, form a more egalitarian form. I have a lot of thoughts of that but im not going to ship because we are here to hear your thoughts and we talk about a lot in housing and even outside of working toward being antiracist, and how a formal housing improves health and improves all of these other aspects so i think thats really very important. Another question is how do widespread racist stereotypes like the welfare queen influence how we advance antiracist policies . What happens is racist ideas cause us to view the people as the problem, and thereby cause them to believe racist policies are the solution. So, therefore, we dont even imagine the need for antiracist policies, let alone push for them. So racist ideas really cause people to oppose antiracist policies that actually can lead to equity and justice because they believe in equity is normal. Another question from somebody about your book how to be an antiracist who says that in the end you call for changes in policy to overcome racism, and that the reader thought that where youre going, the change youre going to call for was the need to overcome white norms, which sometimes go behind the norms of such and suggested being white is enough or acceptable or forgive a behavior. Can you say more about that . I think one kind of racist idea is what i call assimilation of ideas. And these ideas normalize white people and suggest that every other racial group should be striving to become white. And the close of the are to being white, the more and better they are. The other side of that is assimilation ideas is to standardize what white people consider to be a civilized society, and then the society is created based on white norms and white standards. Everyone else is asked to assimilate in that civilization. So when we are think about and antiracist society, we should not be thinking about it from this standpoint of what is the standard for white people. Particularly information as diverse as the united states. We should be really thinking about a society that brings in the perspectives and the standards of multiple groups of people. Because if we are not in were not building an antiracist society. Somebody else has ask him a cup of people are asking about your personal experience with surviving and overcoming cancer and the lessons that you learn from that. In talking about my diagnosis, i i was diagnosed in january of 2018 with stage four colon cancer. As i i went through the process the treatment, i was writing how to be an antiracist, so i was reflecting on how we can understand racism and and i beo see all of these parallels between how we can understand racism through how Many Americans understand and even treat cancer. First and foremost, the most obvious parallel for me was i did not want to believe that me in my mid30s, no risk factors, im a vegan, i dont smoke, i dont drink regularly, had cancer. No, no, thats not me. Thats those other people. Just like americans say no, im not racist, right . Im a democrat, im a liberal, im on northerner, im this ce on that. Thats the first sort of obvious connection but theres also the connection of treatment. Typically, metastatic cancer, which is what i had, is typically treated with the systemic in the local treatment. We can treat metastatic racism which are communities and this nation suffering from with the same systemic and local treatment. The local treatment to which a physician would go in and surgically removed the tumors, the tumors of racial inequity, to get rid of them, to get rid of those racist policies that are behind it. We would actually flood the body with antiracist policies that reduce those inequities, reduce those tumor cells of inequity that we cant even see. And i can prevent a reoccurrence. I think the way we understand cancer or treat cancer should be the way we can understand and treat racism, going back to the denial, you know, people tell me all the time you should not identify with what she said of what shes doing or her as racist because its going to hurt her. There are americans every day right now who are being diagnosed with covid19. Nobody is saying, well, lets not tell them they have covid19 or they have cancer of you have hypertension because its going to hurt them. No, actually diagnosing a person is going to help them. Thats the first step and then receiving treatment. Even though the treatment is going to be very hard. I think if we had the same mentality about racism and we also cannot did not imagine eas were experts, we could diagnose ourselves as having hypertensio hypertension, that we actually relied on people with expertise, i think we would be that much better off. I wish we could continue this conversation. I have more questions and with more questions that have come in but we are at a time in what respect your time, dr. Kendi. I know you have another appointment right after this so we do need to close this called now. But what an amazing conversation, at a just want o tell you how grateful i am, how appreciative i am for your work and for your taking the time to share these really powerful and important insights with all of us. So thank you so much for this conversation and thank you so much for joining us here today. You are welcome, diane. Im just really excited to have had the opportunity to converse with you. Im a huge fan of your work and the work of your organization, you know, this is an issue obviously that it really hold dear. You know, housing injustice. Theres a number of forms of justice we having this country. Absolutely. Thank you so much again, and thank you to all of you who joined today. I think nearly 5000 people on todays call. Really appreciate all of your interest and i really encourage and urge you all to continue this conversation in your communities. I hope youll read all of dr. Kendi books and articles on how each of us commit ourselves to the work of antiracism. And i also hope that all come people who joined this call today will join us at the National LocalHousing Coalition and i were to achieve recovery to this and all disasters antenna work to end homelessness and housing poverty once and for all. So please visit our website which is nlich. Org and you can sign up for newsletters, get calls to action and become involved in our work on covid19, housing and homelessness and beyond. So thank you all so much for joining us. Ask again, dr. Kendi. Thank you all for your good work in your communities around the country. Take care around our country. Take care, stay healthy, and goodbye for now. Recently historian Megan Kate Nelson discuss the impact of the civil war on the american west. Heres a portion of her talk. Between 18611868, the union, the confederacy and native people to control this region. The union and the confederacy wanted the west for its gold and its ports. Each of them also saw lewis as part of this really important vision for their future. So that the north was envisioning this empire of free labor, free slavery from coast to coast and the west was pivotal to that project. The confederacy saw it, their future, as an empire of slavery. Also from coast to coast. So the thought if they could secure the west then they could jump off from there and actually moved south and invade mexico and create this sort of hemispheric empire of slavery including the caribbean and latin america. Apaches in navajo would be living in the southwest for hundreds of years saw this white mans war as an invasion of their territories, and both the union and the confederacy so these indigenous groups as obstacles obviously to their attempt to control the west and their vision of this national future. I also learned that after the union successfully defended new mexico territory from confederate territory in the spring of 1860 do they turn to these other enemies and initiated hardcore campaigns against them. What this meant is at the same time that the union was fighting this war to emancipate enslavement of women in the east, they were fighting a war to exterminate or remove native peoples in the west. To watch the rest of this Program Visit our website booktv. Org search for Megan Kate Nelson or the title of her book the threecornered war using the search box at the top of the page. Joining us now on booktv is matthew whitaker. He served as acting attorney general from november 2018 through february 2019 and he is the author of this new book above the law the inside story of how the Justice Department tried to subvert president trump. Mr. Whitaker, before we begin with the book, explain how you became the acting attorney general to us. Thats a great first question. I i was chief of staff to attory general Jeff Sessions starting in