Tolentino by buying the books, buy some books. I know many of you have copies but im sure there is someone in your life that needs one. We could absolutely send it off to that person. Another way to support pnp is use the donate button at the bottom of your screen. We arent charging for this program but any contribution you can make so we can continue our programming is so valued by us. You can ask a question tonight by clicking on ask a question which can also be found near the bottom of your screen. You can read other peoples questions and even vote for the ones you would like to hear answered the most. If you have any tech issues, sometimes that happens, we recommend refreshing your browser, switch to chrome if you need to and try head phones because it helps. Tonight we are here to talk about economic inequality in times of crisis or the only thing, the only thing that is right now and no one in the world speaks truth to power like barbara. She refuses to accept easy answers in her expansive curve investigation and activism. The determination to impart social change and economic reason is distilled in had i known collected essays, her new collected essays. Jia tolentino, an essential cultural processor for all of us through her work in the new yorker, during the covid19 crisis her work has taken on a more urgent and activist voice culminating in a piece on mutual aid in this weeks new yorker. Both of these women are required reading for any informed citizen of our time. Help me welcome Barbara Ehrenreich and jia tolentino. There goes liz. High, every one, 1000 people listening. It is incredible. More than would be in the bookstore. More than we could ever pull live. We were just saying before they went live if any of you havent gotten had i known collected essays i highly recommend it and all the things we are thinking about like how ridiculous it is there are billionaires that are frontline workers making this absurd minimum wage, a delight to interview her. I interviewed her for the new yorker in the before time which feels like the before time. It is good to be able to talk now. For you and me we are both a little bit our brains naturally go to the fact the story of consciousness, the story of labor, this is a single story of our country. But to me i wanted to ask you do you feel like how much do you feel class consciousness has changed, has been at the forefront during the last couple months. Not enough. I think it is unavoidable. If you cant avoid the fact that the stimulus package is aimed toward the big corporations and the wealthy. How people are absorbing this and how to act on it, that is the story. In this weeks new yorker, Mutual Aid Association performing, springing up spontaneously around the country just to help the most basic things like groceries and getting people to the doctor. Its interesting because i think is true the stimulus package is laughable the fact that, as in the emergency sort of managing sickleave, i think corporations that employ more than 500 people are exempt from it . There so many ways which the actual legislative negotiation of who gets help right now is an obvious nightmare. But thats what i mean, i dont know if my perspective is swayed after speaking to organizers so much for the past couple of months. It seems to me like so many of these Mutual Networks are springing up because of suddenly or increasingly mainstream understanding the its not doing its job . The legislators are not doing their jobs . About the mutual aid of the organizing factors in disadvantaged communities and its amazing to me how mainstream this media is that were basically living in a failed state. I find that very hardening. But you think its not representative or Something Like that . Your article . No, no, no you think like this realization speak to yes there is no government theres no government. There is no government comes the use of arms and prisons and things like that. But we dont have we dont have a welfare state. So we are completely under prepared for people losing jobs, were looking at 30 unemployment is the estimate now, right . I cannot even imagine that. I was not live during the great depression, but i heard plenty of stories. This is much more unemployment than that. And of course, we dont have fdr as president. So rights, do not even get me started on that. [laughter] guest so no, this is its hard to and particularly hard to judge things about class consciousness when we cannot congregate, when we cannot see people in large numbers. Host right. Guest and a lot of my own history as an activist has it has involved crowds. Thats just and linking arms, marching down the streets together, and the hugging, and all kinds of things that are now strongly not advised. So, its hard to see and one of my favorite organizer friends, called me and said how are we organized now . We can even get together. People need to make bonds. Whether its a Mutual Aid Society or an action to put pressure on elected officials or whatever. How do you measure that . Yes i know. Youve been on the front lines talking to people. You know ive been thinking a lot about how radicalizing moments beget radicalizing moments. And again i keep trying to fight against this swamp. There are certain things certain things of the strikes going on there very reminiscent of the 30s, right . There transit theres still theres a rising discontentment theres kind of this confounding i hate to say unprecedented it is so overused right now. There are certain things like for example were staring down 30 unemployment may be higher. But how is anyone come out of this and thinking Health Insurance should be tied to unemployment. To me it seems almost impossible for anyone to come out of it thinking that we should not have universal healthcare. But that it also like are you being stupid again . We know the bright side. We are learning. Now i am not i lean more and artistically. This is, when you realize that no one is going to come to your aid, and nothing is happening. That is when you say we have to do this. That is when we to be a people as a world. Yes. It was interesting for me reporting that pays to confront my own status. Guests are people who are listening its sort of like a fundamental tension between all this work people are doing for each other, like barber was saying getting other groceries, making sure they have access to pharmacy trips or whatever and there is this question of what the state ought to be responsible for four with the state is never done for many people and is not really showing any interest in doing. And i tend towards the status point of view but in my peace of is much more like maybe this is a lack of imagination on my part. So in terms of view, everyone is commenting saying, that nickel and diamond was a formative book in terms of many of us developing a consciousness of inequality and economic oppression and to me we talked when i interviewed for the new yorker we talked about how the media fails at showing any meeting type of life, if anyone is not familiar is like many of my favorite stories every year im haunted by Economic Hardship reporting. And to me i feel that its economic inequality has been pretty foregrounded by the media in this. Surely not like. Guest what . Foregrounded . Host yes i mean i think people they will always talk about we are all in this together, and like this virus is a great equalizer when very obviously it is not. Attempt. A black times or three times more likely to know someone has died. In new york i think three quarters of the frontline workers are low income people of color. The fact that so many of these lowpaid Health Care Jobs are held by women. To meet these facts have been pretty clear in media coverage. I was wondering what you think about that . Do you think how you think the media has done an reporting about inequality . Guest not so bad. I mean, im thinking, seriously mainstream, fake news, et ceter cetera. Think the New York Times and the post have been pretty good counseling bring this up. And that is something. So are there any examples that spring to mind . Guest well, i think the times coverage in general that is been pretty good. But you are better judge of these things. You are out there on the front lines of journalism. Host im in my bedroom like everybody else. The credible was exposing the transit workers had been treate treated, it got a lot of exposure, the facts that i think there is a really great peace on healthcare workers and transporters buyer mental services, not like the doctors and nurses necessarily but the people i am also learning the narratives are reaching people that are not already aware. We keep trying. And we do that our different ways. I feel very, very frustrated that i cannot talk directly to people. Its not that i am a showoff or want to be the center of attention, i dont feel a sense of a platform in the sense of people interacting with me enough. Not right now. You are agreeing and you are much more out there right now than i am. I think you are right there is a way in which the deep frustration he think those lines of people voting in wisconsin the people in South Carolina protesting to take such extreme risk to gather for even for the most important purposes is devastating what you want to see right now but at the same time with talk about amazon organizing. I know your exhusband has been involved with organizing we talked without another intervie interview. I think early on the amazon workers in new york i think one of the earliest people to strike because someone contracted coronavirus and then amazon retaliated, you see this whole wave of companies retaliated against nurses who have spoken out about john about the condition your optimism book put on internal communication those like please only put positive statements about the hospital. [laughter] but you know and amazon though there one of the most prominent scott and called out for the attorney general so theyre probably going to investigate, talk to me about whats going on amazon right now. Guest will i cant really tell you as an insider. But i think whats happening is kind of amazing. Its nationwide is entirely done by telephone and online. And it is attracting a very interesting diverse mix of workers. Which amazon has. There people of all ages and skin colors and Different National backgrounds it everything. It is amazing that they get along. And they are very excited. And they are moving from place to place, building on the success in other spots. Amazons response to the threat of reopening has been to cut pay, they were paying 17. Hour for new workers. And that was 2 more than as of may 1 im just looking this up. Seventeen dollars an hour was being brought back. Think the heroes pay last for 30 days with these companies. Thats what i think is going on in general. People think about gearing up to going back to work. Possibly opening up factory gates or whatever again. The companies are thinking hey we are doing them a favor, we are giving them jobs. Jobs that they already had. I hate that language, giving people jobs. People give you their labor. Theres pushback coming from the ceo saying we have suffered a lot. We have suffered a lot during this crisis. We have seen our stocks go up and down and crazy waves. And so on. Now we need to be rewarded. Workers have to take a hit. Mean one of things they are fighting about with amazon is they get paid sick days. Nobody gets paid sick days. They dont anymore. Im saying we should talk about or everyone. To me on of im just delusional here, its the glaringly obvious glaring in the back of my head which is americas the richest country in the world has the least safety net of any. It seems like how could anyone come out of this with universal healthcare, mandatory sick leave for everyone you know, companies present. [laughter] so all the things we dont have. Then you think about the election i cant even think about that. [laughter] what has made you the mattis . Like when we are just sitting, what has infuriated you most over the last couple of months . Guest lots of things, i think the attack on the working classes going on now in the United States as a whole infuriates me. Its taking people who who have been underpaid and abused during their work lives for a long, long time and kicking them while they are down. What more can you do . What more they can you do than die for your employer . Not seems to be the new deal. You want a job . Be prepared to die. I dont know where to start with this anger. How do we do this constructivel constructively . Host into me when i think about that one of the things i worry is that people will see lowwage workers as expendable. Theres already such a tendency on parts of the wealthy to dismiss poor people as deserving of this status right . If you make 12 an hour that some sort of moral failing to be unable to make more. So to me its more clear right now than ever that everything is so arbitrary that is still have a job that i can work at home that other people cant. It is absolutely nothing to do has every think of accident. One thing i worry about is this will cements that implicit understanding that people who have to deliver packages and check out a Grocery Stores thats their job. Thats what they do, if you dont have to do it its for a reason rather than for no reason at all. That is the thing that filled me with a lot of dread. But i also think it may be at the same time its got to be people for whom they risk their lives for 17 an hour. Guest i dont know whats going on with the consciousness of so many of our lawmakers. If we are looking at Something Like 30 unemployment by july, that is worse than the great depression. This is beyond our imagining. We have no place no way of caring for these people medically, what are we thinking . I worry because im always a little bit apocalyptic leak inclined and here it is right in front of us. We have to get to the mutual aid philosophy that you write about in the new yorker this week, in terms of a general class consciousness. And i dont mean to exclude too many people, once i say class conscience there people now seem very hard times who have never imagined that in their lives. But it was clear for me as soon as he started saying some people could work at home, that was it. That was the clue. Because whos going to work at home . The fedex delivery guy . No people like you and i. We get to work at home. Just like the Racial Disparities think a pretty Strong Majority of asians and white people can work at home and black people and hispanic people, i will say the thing thats made me the mattis, as i was the meatpacking plants this is a job its mostly done by immigrants. It hard working conditions we were unsafe you have to be pushed close together. I think it was the governor of south dakota saying the outbreak among meatpacking employees it was due to social things that immigrants do. I was that why . I think even the secretary, he said something to pay but thats what youre saying when you said its like this idea that our legislatures are implicitly blaming the lower class for the booth thats in place on their neck, it is ridiculous. That has been a theme on the rights for so long. If you are poor, if youre hardpressed economically, must be because you are doing something wrong. You are not living right. You are having too many babies, you are an addict, whatever. All these ways of shaming the poor which makes the affluent feel very good because you can say hey i have done everything right, i got an education. I did it right. But thats of all about to change if i look even two weeks into the future i am scared. If people are shooting at each other over getting into a mcdonalds a dining room if theyre shooting at each other because are being told to socially distance the Family Dollar store, we have an armed population at least the right wing part of it is armed. And people are angry. Nobody is saying how do we direct the anger where are we directing anger . But we are. I grew up in texas, my mom works in a Hospital System there. As the state reopens, i think to me course you dont want to dismiss it is the portion of people who want to reopen the economy need money. To me the fact that the estates are announcing to reopen is like oh so heres the way to cut off unemployment. To pay to people you think about people with Service Workers nail salon workers they have to go back to work they wont make any money because no ones going to come in. They cannot get unemployment, thats it thats the fixer whatever pride whats next . So thats when you pick up a brick and billy pick up a brick in a good way you know like im sort of feeling like that to you know there are traditions of mutual aid. You mention the history in your article. I just want to throw in the feminist movement. Oh yes. Selfhelp and mutual aid, right . So its around healthcare. Forging her own clinics, teaching women how to do their own health exams. These doctors are going to remain so sexist so racist that we need to have a different first cells we need to have spirit that we can do things. I feel the same way about reproductive rights. Its easy enough to abort a tiny fetus. Why arent we just saying we can take this into our own hands. You know . Trying to report out a really long peace right now because its interesting for me that some women for a lot of women low income women trying to get an abortion always involved these layers and layers of logistical obstacles and many people are now understanding for the first time. Like its very hard to leave my house at three hard to get childcare suddenly dont have money to pay for it. I have to travel but travel is difficult. Theres a way which a lot of women this is always what its like to get an abortion and ive been interested in, even talking with people seeing exactly what youre saying i talked to a woman how to fly from texas to colorado just to get the Abortion Pill at seven weeks. She should be able to do telemedicine and just get in the mail. It is extremely safe and things just like that. With that too ive been encouraged there is direct aid to each other in direct support for the state wont do it. Those are nationwide, live and prepping for the appeals, they are doing the work. Been in black communities communitys mutual aid is like the bedrock. After you nickel and dime i am remembering there so many parts in that book with like people youre working with at the diner somebody got kicked out of their with her temporary housing they would be welcomed in with the coworker. Guest amused unchecked mutual support to build along among workingclass and low income people. Statistically it shows that people who are much more philanthropic philanthropic all of those sorts of things. We have to know what that impulsive people to come together in our economy. So weve got like 20 ish minutes left in her pull up some of these questions last time i did this i didnt realize it sorted by how many people voted for them. Stop by the once it got the most votes okay this top question is sort of what weve been talking about. Do you think the pandemic will change american attitude toward the idea of the modern welfare state . Will it synonymous with intelligence. [laughter] think that is one of the many myths. Wait let me continue reading. Okay are we reading different questions . Stack im not reading anything. What you reading . Well okay. So do you think the pandemic will change American Attitudes towards the welfare state and hasnt been pushed nears farley as it could be but i do think it will maybe im an idiot and i dont have an idea about anything. I dont think its a good idea to make any kind of prediction. I can only say i am trying. The pandemic change attitudes towards the welfare . Thats the top thats what this question is. Yes think anything was from that word welfare. Right now it shouldve been done years and years ago. And say yes there are people who are especially low income women of color have times in their lives when they need help. They need direct financial assistance. And there are people, all of us who need help at various times micah for sick or trying to buy a house or whatever. Whatever looms before us. Right. The most next voted on question he satisfied with the level of attention from the Biden Campaign for these issues . [laughter] host i think like i was looking something up on youtube earlier than a Biden Campaign popped up on it when put my head to the wall. The answer is no to a degree i cannot express right now. I will say hes gotten pushed left, his single proposals are further left than i thought they would be but i cannot stand it. When you think barbara . I dont know it was heartbreaking when sanders stepped out. Although now i cant go there i cant get anything excited about biden. We go out there and vote for one reason or another, but with less and less conviction. I want to vote for a socialist for president in the democratic primary in virginia. Thats great i love that. So nothing of any get to the next question is this is a great question im glad you brought it up. Access to Public Education and how did you put how his access to Public Education going to be changed for the disadvantaged by this crisis . Ive been thinking a lot one thing ive been thinking about is its a magnifier of economic inequality in a lot of ways. But think about all the College Students the lowincome College Students who get to college and is supposed to be the institutional equalizer than all the sudden the says boomerang them right back into situations where the differences between their home life of their classmates home life are vastly very obvious. Ive been thinking about that the College Level for some reason ive been thinking about i have friends, one of my Close Friends one of her students dont have internet. They dont have internet at home. The ways in which advantage children will be bored and stressed they will be okay, there people watching out for them versus how deeply people on the other end are going to be disadvantaged by the Public Schools being closed on a jimmy thoughts about that . Im kind of answering them. Guest i think one of the things is being revealed is how important Public Schools are as an eating center for a lot of children exist reading it breakfast and lunch and what happened to that . What are those kids eating . Whats going on . The schools are sort of a wedge to the welfare state. And impacts everybodys life. This is one of those ways especially when all the debates for the week or so maybe is more than that is up in the air new york whether or not theyre going to close schools. Everyone kept bringing up the point that these are feeding centers is not the most reliable that they get a day. Its a significant. To me it was like this is exactly the ways in which income inequality the way income inequality harms that every Single Person in this country will be one of the most obvious examples. His schools did not have to serve as eating centers, then they could have been closed earlier in the epidemic in new york will look so different. The domino effect. Yes. College schools are expanded welfare state. Right now, yesterday, last year, whenever, otherwise i dont know what happened. While in new york at least i think a lot of places where schools have opened as you can pick up a meal twice a day. Which is good. I think that that point is like schools should not be the singular protective vector to make up for all the other programs that are lacking. So yeah. Okay. Heres the next question, how do we organize protest and action now when as you say we cant be together . The person who wrote the question wrote there is a new sense of leverage somewhere we have 1200 people attending this conversation, there is energy right now its coming out some places activism does not necessarily need people in the streets but it needs something any thoughts on how we can organize right now how to find that leverage . I think people have been doing, to some extent heres one thing i think about this. I talked to some disability activists because there are some activists who have always had to organize remotely kind of always had to provide services remotely. It sort of reminded me that it is possible. This is one of the many things that some communities have been working out for a long time. There is always Mutual Aid Networks of sprung up everywher everywhere. Theres an unprecedented amount of online organizing. The question is, where that goe goes. I dont know ive been looking the limits of Electoral College a lot lately. I think that is what were feeling where does this go . Its got to go somewhere new. But also summons his natural meetings of people together speeches creativity and working on that. Talking to my friend who is involved with the amazon, so thats it good name. Guest how do you choreograph that meeting . Have to figure out how to get people that are themselves symbolic of something. I am at the limits of my imagination here i am a writer not a dancer cant figure out choreography. See what im interested in the looking at the may 1 rent strike a lot of that has been organized online its hard to its especially hard to think about this at a time hard to deny physically being together like existential alone politically right . It is a symbol for esa, the democratic socialists of america or was anyway. Which is two hands joined a brown hand and aye hand, that linkage that flash to flesh skin to skin linkage is so much a part of being together. We say im here with you. Thats how we do it. We now need all of you smart young people to figure out new ways to due to. Yes. The next most voted question is very to the point. Okay ready barbara . Does the modern america workingclass a menu been writing about this for so long, is the modern america working class have a breaking point . Were we destined to have the boot stamped on her face foreve forever. Guest well, who asked that question. Guest thats the question we dont know where that point is we never do. You know in our situations awfully hard to figure out. And things could go different directions. So i dont make predictions. But i do think theres a definite breaking point when you cant pay the rent you can put food on the table. Guest the only weapon you have at hand than his disruptio disruption. As my friend is a political scientist, youve got to get ou out. Youve got to get out to get attention. So and one of the things ive been most interested in in terms of just talking about this direct disruption, that has worked from its really amazing. Its so funny the people in the comments and need a vocal coach because i say it like too much. Guys dont have to keep watching. [laughter] subject people are liking you as you speak . No theres saying i say like and you know too much that i need a speech coach. [laughter] i think you speak fine. I think a writer should be read. Sometimes we have to do these things thats just how it is. Okay . Can you make some reading suggestions of books that influence you say what was shirt nickel and dime barbara . I dont have one book i write everything. Fiction and nonfiction, i think that forms be a lot as a writer. Which was my family background was bluecollar mining family actually from butte, montana, that had an impact than i did not even begin to sort out until i was in my 20s. I realize there were classes in American Society and they came from one that was not very good. And today, i have to say one of the things that outrages me the most among liberals, even some people on the left, the vehicle of contempt for workingclass people. One with they would recognize if it were in strictly racial term terms. They would recognize it as racism. They are so weak and it does not speak at all to what im talking about. We have to get back to that. See what im trying to think nickel and dime was pretty formative for me. I think books like evicted is random family one of my favorite nonfiction books ever. And to me thats actually the book all of the boring reading people have to do, im reading random family and evicted. I love evicted. It hurt to rebut a love that is a great book. Host i think all of these books seek to dashing the actual fact of income inequality prayed there not dry, theyre not like these statistical things we are talking on the abstract like income and equality are uniquely human, emotional, think its what you portray as a deeply human like all these books on income inequality or what it is to be human want things. I think thats why these books left such an impact on me. Maybe lets do one more questio question. Okay. How of journalists writers as citizens, helped to reframe the narrative away from what theyve managed to frame it as for decades . Guest i dont know. What are we doing here . Host we pulled also thing is really amazing. To me, i have no idea. You try to do your best every day and thats all you can ever do. But okay actually have a better answer for this question but i think i grew up with most of the people i knew grew up extremely conservative. Guest what . Host there very, very conservative. Certainly they dont believe in universal healthcare all these things that think the minimum wage is fair right to work whatever. And i think that there is increasingly theres never been time theres really no time to mess around now. I have kind of been heartened at least in the last months of how more plainly people are putting things. Kinda winner on twitter is surprising the new yorker published this i cant find it oh no. Its just like the quicker and more directly that people can call bs, like we cant beat around the bush at all anymore. But you never have though. [laughter] i think its possible to speak more plainly. Its possible to say yes, socialism thats the general direction i want to go in. [laughter] or a you thats unthinkable some things were unthinkable even hoops. Sorry about that my technician is helping me here. I have heard lots there. So is something were unthinkabl unthinkable. Two even to talk about medicare for all, that was unthinkable a few weeks ago. Now, what is the alternative . We have no alternatives. No sane ones anyway. Im having a last word here, i want to say its people like yo you, who give be a great deal of hope as to my Technical Assistant who is my very own daughter is also a writer and troublemaker in many, many ways, so consider the torch past. [laughter] so at another time worthy to carry that torch. Phi have a lesser joy think one thing ive been thinking about in terms of how to frame socialism as a way i think it should be framed, i forget someone wrote a peace recently about how americans are so used to accepting this abstract idea of freedom in exchange or just a deep lack of actual freedom its the abstract freedom to work instead of the concrete freedom to be protected in the workplace, right . I think there are so many ways in which i think you wrote the question the basic idea of freedom has been coopted when in fact freedom means security, means a safety net. So okay well i think that concludes our hour i will turn it back over. Expect hi again. Thank you so much for engaging this conversation with this. I feel like other people and i could listen to you talk to much every day. Thank you. Thank you to everyone thats listening. Just a reminder, we put on these events out of love but we do need your support. Inserted the authors you can click on here to buy both books youll get a personalized bookplate you can also click from the bottom to donate to the program which allows us to keep bring you programs like this. We have a lot of other programs coming up tomorrow we have lawrence rice monday we have conversation with kamala harris, and a bunch more so check out our website for more informatio information. Thank you both stay well and stay will read. So heres a look at some books being published this week. Historian john meacham offers a collection of Thomas Jeffersons writings on how to be a good citizen in the hands of the people. In Charter Schools and their enemies economist counters arguments conceives of Charter Schools. An Guardian Correspondent luke harding reports russias rating a covid war against the rest and trent west and shadow states also being published this week, david provides information on russian interference in foreign elections. University of chicago law professor offers his thoughts on how america can deal with demigods in the demigods playbook. Anna bears and ballots heather has her inside local politics. Watch for many of the authors in the near future on book tv on cspan2. Sunday at 2 00 p. M. Eastern on book tv, former National Security advisor for president trump, john bolton and his book the room where it happened on his time in the trump administration. Then sunday at 3 30 p. M. Eastern, nathan Freedom Coalition ralph reed with his book god and country the christian case for trump heard and sunday at 9 00 p. M. Eastern on after words, author and robin hood ceo west amore on his book, five days about the 2015 baltimore uprising following the death of freddie gray. Hes interviewed by the most senior fellow heather mcgee, watch book tv sunday at 2 00 p. M. 3 30 p. M. And 9 30 p. M. Eastern on cspan2. And tonight on book tv in prime time it is our weekly summer series featuring several programs from our archives with your favorite authors such as christopher hitchens, Toni Morrison and others. Tonight its a look at the many appearances of awardwinning historian David Mccullough on book tv over the past 25 years. It all starts tonight at 8 00 p. M. Eastern here on book tv. Good evening everybody i am the townhall executive director on behalf of our organization our partner booksellers its a pleasure to welcome you to tonights lifestream presentation by anthony townsend. As we get underway want to acknowledge our institution stands on the ancestral territory we thank them for our continuing use of the Natural Resources and their ancestral homelands. And we thank all of you for tuning in and will call them Interesting Times they are grateful for the opportunity to invite virtual audience together to share ideas and creativity even were