Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing On Government Agency Oversight Of Federal COVID-19 Response 20240712

Payments were sentenced to dead people. Later members exchanged words of our green facemask during Committee Hearings. Good morning. Today our select committee the hybrid meeting. Some members will appear in person others may fear mostly rated via webex. Since the members are very in person, let me first remind everyone that pursuant to the latest guidance, from the house position, all individuals attending this another hearings in person should be wearing face masks. Now i did not make these rules. Thus the rules. And after this meeting, other authorities, will make a determination as to whether or not we recognize people in the hearings. He did not wear facemasks. Happen to be born and raised as of the 21st next month, 80 years in south carolina. So i know little bit about rules and i know a little bit about things. So im going to consult with them as of today i will share with the authorities. The experiences here today. So thats me also make a few reminders about hybrid hearings rid for those members appearing in person, youll be able to see members appearing remotely on the two monitors in front of you. On one ones are you see all the members appearing remotely and once. In what is known as a webex. On the other monitor you will see each person speaking during the hearings. When their speaking. And claiming who are caring from ashley. Those members appearing remotely you may also see each other through the speaker during the hearings. Whether they are in person or remote. As long as you have your web acts set to active speaker mode. If you have any questions about this, please contact the staff immediately. I also remind everyone of the house procedure that applies to the hearings. The the members in person, in the room, directly in front of you. For those who are remote, you will have a timer that should be visible on your screens when you are in the active speaker im now. And have a timer set. For those appearing remotely, few of the reminders for the house rules apply we see you read so please have your camera is turned on at all times. Not just when youre speaking. Members who are not recognized to remain in a mineralized background noise, and feedback. Our recognized members verbally, and the right to seek or obtain the right to seek recognition. In later members will be recognized in seniority for questions. If your remotes, and want to be recognized outside of the regular order, he manages to find that in several ways. You may use the button to send a request pretty must send an email to the majority staff or me unmute your mike to seek recognition. And honestly, you not want people talking over each other. Members use email to facilitate formal recognition rated the staff will ensure that i will recognize you. You will begin to hear just moment. [silence]. The committee will come to order. It perhaps objection Recess Committee and a time. And i recognize myself for an opening statement. Today is the elect center and he is please welcome jean. The controlling general, and had of the General Accountability Office read independent nonpartisan watchdog and is essential to Congress Oversight in the executive branch. This oversight any more important than ever before. More than 120,000 americans have died from the coronavirus and deming. The most of any country on earth. No infections of been rising for weeks. In two days ago, reached a high number of new cases on record. More than 37000 in a single day. It is clear that the administrations attempt to contain this virus i failed thus far. At the same time, the numbers of americans are out of work. Including 1. 5 million is filed new unemployment claims just past week. In the cares act, bipartisan support, congress is on the gao to monitor and oversee the federal, to the coronavirus pandemic and the relief funds and to report that his findings back to Congress Read yesterday, gao issued its first mandated report that with me. I think all of you and you have all of the copies of the report will be due. This is alarming. The report identifies significant problems with transparency and accountability. In the federal response. In particular, the Trump Administration is refusing to cooperate gaos oversight. Even though the root cooperation is required by law. For example, the Small Business administration has had more than 512 billion in taxpayers dollars to the Paycheck Protection Program. Yes, the reports, the sba has been acquired, failed to provide information critical to our review. And as a result, she a coconut determined when the funds are being effectively targeted that struggling Small Businesses are instead being diverted by waste, fraud, or abuse and mismanagement. Last night, they notified the Selection Committee to provide seo toomey the data than it had previously withheld. Im pleased that they are finally finding some willingness to obey the law. In cooperate. But it is troubling that the administration withheld this information until this eve. For the congressional hearing exposing here. Also serious concerns that the administration to effectively manage key programs. The recipients of federal funds accountable. For example, gao, failed to implement oversight mechanisms that were essential to note fraud and abuse the ppe programs. As result, is a significant risk that some Vigilant Applications were approved. Gao also found reliability issues was disproved by the Trump Administration resulted in him quoting here, in significant delays. Testing nationwide the critical early weeks. They also identified Serious Problems to procure and distribute critical protective equipment. And the medical supplies. The report that the administration learned even before pandemic, failed to act. The support also highlights problems the delivery of Economic Impact damage from authorized by the cares act. They were designed to ship of americans and get back on their feet quickly. But according to every student estimate, they still not, they can with 12 million in payments. Nearly three months after Congress Passed the cares act. As a result, many vulnerable americans have yet to read see these critical funds. The American People deserve to know how the money is being spent and if our government is doing all that they can to protect them from the coronavirus pandemic. I am deeply troubled by the findings. That the administration is seeking to evade accountability by undermining their oversight efforts. Make no mistake, the administrations refusal to cooperate with the gao is part of a broader effort to undermine evade, and ignore effective oversight during this pandemic. The administration is moved the inspectors general and without basic Information Congress issued an accurate legal opinions to try to keep billions of dollars in spending a secret. The america people deserve better. Only make something clear. Troubles of this oversight is not to cast blame but to make the comments for future success. The goals of this select committee are the same the goals of the administration rated to save american lives and leather goods. Message to be administration business. We want to help you succeed these goals. And this time of crisis, i sincerely hope of our colleagues in both sides of the oils as well as members of the Trump Administration will recognize the value of being with each other, and with the American People. The start for brady cooperating the gao is acquired by law. I am grateful mr. Corrado for appearing here today and to all the dedicated professionals in gao. These unprecedented times, and gal has risen to the challenge to help us ensure the federal response to the coronavirus pandemic is efficient, effective and equitable, and transparent. Although yield. Thank you mr. Chairman and i appreciate your comments especially this is something that we have been asking for for a long time. Members will slowly edges the ability to interact in person, any Committee Setting in public social distance while allowing us to do a business near as much more effective and gives us much more the ability to get the proper oversight we expect the people of this entry deserve. On begin by thanking pj a alfaro producing an initial report of the federal governments response for the covid19 pandemic it is so chart. Time. An analysis of the largest vessels relief effort in americas history while the relief effort is still being implemented is a huge task. The absence of important insights and recommendations but we should all recognize the limitations of this. We ask in fact we demanded that the federal government built plane metlife. Gao report is intended us so before that plane is even winded. The start from the beginning. The Chinese Communist party actively engaged in a coverup. And suppress doctors and journalists who attempted to walk the world about a novel deadly virus. Senior chinese leaders knew of weeks before it was announced. During critical period in december and january china withheld evidence of the virus. Evidence that confirms human to human transmission of the virus. Of the spread, china refused entry up of american the medical experts from around the world for weeks. During this time, china ordered medical supplies like mass entails another lifesaving ppe. Chinese exports of surgical masks and gloves were stifled by the Chinese Communist party during this period in china new the danger posed by the virus and while they hid the truth, use this vital time to stock up on the vibes of medical supplies. By the chinese authorities limited the cities. Chinas government urged International Carrier to maintain their flight schedules. Seating the virus throughout the rest of the world. The World Health Organization said as late as january 23rd, this is an emergency and china but is not yet become a Global Health emergency. At this time there is no evidence of human to human transmission outside china. The who exists to stop pendants. Paul and to trust the experts all china was hoarding the ppe and sending infected patients are the rules of the who misled the world police ossuary. This committee scaling its mission to be dealt old china and the who accountable for these facts that they withheld from america and the rest of the world the cause tens and thousands of deaths just in this country alone read sadly me know quickly the virus spread in america. The first step is february 29th and inform us of the super 120,000 of our family friends, neighbors. Knaus passed the first covid19 package march 4th. Five days after the first reported death. I was president bill march 14th. 27 thought the president signed the cares act rated together these bills represent the largest relief efforts in american history. Our real economy shut down. Overnight millions of the market at risk of losing their jobs. Chinas those behind, does it invest like demanded speed. They conceded. 4. 5 million ppe loans totaling over 500 billion in just three months. Theres no sheaves in size from including large banks of community bank, Credit Unions as lopez participated in this program. More than 5400 lenders have participated today. We should fear testimony that millions of Small Businesses who were saved by the ppe. It is smashing success. Given the speed we demanded in the overwhelming in any program, is always mistakes made and lessons to be learned. Gao report finds that the reliance on applicant Self Certification, but the ppe program vulnerable to exploitation. Nestor chairman, they chose to rely on Self Certification because of the need to expeditiously provide loans to Small Businesses. Congress demanded the speed. When he would have preferred them to take months to design the mistakes free program while millions of Small Businesses and tens of millions of workers lost everything they had in their lives. I appreciate them reviewing the program and making recommendations. Each of us to take seriously those recommendations pretty but that partisan attacks seem to imply that the Trump Administration should have slowed down the ppe pride that goes against everything we all voted on. Every democrat and republican who voted for the cares act shows speed over transfection. We didnt have that luxury. The millions of families who been saved from this program wouldve died on defined waiting for some perfectly run federal program which i would love to see an example that. The gao says that hhs experience substantial challenges. With this initial covid19 response. Over hundred years a hitter sure sadly because china lied and covered up the danger. Yes. I agree a great they were faced with historic challenges. An congresses by the way did not do an adequate job of keeping the National Stockpiles of life. And then we face charges hoarding. But look at what american has accomplished. If more than 20 million tests with covid19 have been performed in the United States. So many now the summer complaining about all of the positive covid19 responses that we are saying. After they demanded more desperate we have more tests, we have more positives pretty that was something everybody knew what happens. Most days now were conducting over 500,000 tester date. And were expanding their capacity. Delivered over 25 million swabs to support the blueprint. As of june 17th, fema and the private sectors combined corn art coordinated of over hundred and 15,000,095 respirators. And 16 billion gloves. Fema foreign aid to ships of the 14 day supply of personal protective equipment to over 15000 medicare certified Nursing Homes. The something we need to investigate further. This shipment, are meant to supplement existing efforts to provide equipment to Nursing Homes. But accomplished a great amount in a short amount of time. We need the efforts in therapy, vaccines and to move forward at warp speed. Thankfully the Trump Administration has launched operation warp speed to find these therapies. Congress needs to be a partner not an obstacle to the success of operation warp speed. House democrats, bring a drug price control bill to the floor next monday. They said that your plane would actually reduce the creation of lifesaving drugs. The council of economic advisers said that number could be up to 100 or fire lifesaving drugs not brought to market if the billy one bring next week aspirated never good time to stifle this. But this seems to be in an thinkable time to be pursued policies of slow down the development of vaccine. Coming on Speaker Pelosi to pull was built from further consideration on monday. We do not need to be slowing down the search for a cure. We still need to hold hearing on pulling china accountable while this committee spent so much im trying to find things that went wrong, i should also highlight some of the things we did well like the ppe which saved thousands of lives millions of jobs. We should join together who issued deadly nursing home orders going at the federal guidelines, finally complaint with the demands that we sent forward to turn of the data so that we can actually have transparency and accountability for the tens of thousands of seniors who died unnecessarily Nursing Homes because its governors violated the federal guidelines for the help to search for those answers. I yelled back. Thank you. Our witness today, mr. Jean. The witness stand so i can swear him in. Understand me the others who testify today. Would like to be sworn in as well. The director for the Financial Markets rated and nicole. Managing director of the healthcare team. Plus with a view to step forward. Thank you. Please raise your right hands. Your swear or affirm the testimony youre about to give ms. The truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god. Let the record show that all three witnesses answered in the affirmative. You may be seated. Without objections, other written statements will be made directly. That, now recognized for your testimony. Thank you. Good morning to you. Members of the subcommittee. Im very pleased to be here today to talk about the First Comprehensive assessment of the legislation the congress swiftly passed in the ministrations been working hard to implement. We determined that the first two months after the legislation was passed, there was 1. 2 trillion of assistance provided. In the former of almost 700 billion in direct spending and over 500 billion in loan guarantees. Now this assistance was accompanied by a lot of dedication and agility by various segments of our society. The heroic efforts may bar healthcare workers across the country. There is significant efforts were forwarded to the federal workforce. To implement this legislation. State and local governments and others made valuable contributions and continued to do so and with regard to the federal agencies, they give a high priority given the urgency of healthcare needs and severe economic downturn to move swiftly and validate the funds as we point out in our reports. There were tradeoffs that were made. Now reports designed to help them make some good cores good directions with regard to the tradeoffs. But as a consequence, they made Good Progress in distributing the money but only limited progress in ensuring in meeting this transparency and accountability bowls. Now report provides a comprehensive assessment across the entire federal government. But this morning my opening comment, just focus on those areas that i think our initial recommendations for improvements focus on. First is the ppe programs. I agree that they made swift allegations and setting up a nationwide program. In distributing the money. But there were some issues that i think need to be attended to very quickly. So our recommendation is a lot of confusion with the program. It was implemented the stream of frequently asked questions and guidance of their is some confusion still remains with the program. But all things in, any another site plan to ensure that the funds are safeguarded. Theres already some indications of fraud in the program. I pleased to report to the administrator, last night. An agreed to give us the information that we needed. In order to go forward somewhere in the process of finalizing arrangements for that. I would place i also offered to help them as they design their oversight and monitoring plans and she accepted my agreement. On the environment insurance area, the states are struggling to implement the programs, and the need for traditional staffing. However there is a potential problem. The overlap between Unemployment Benefits and employees who may have under the Paycheck Protection Program that were not paying people twice. We recommend they get guidance in a grade they will get guidance for the irs and the treasury Inspector General in the Tax Administration identified 1. 4 million payments of 1. 4 billion of aid that was provided to the deceased we recommend that the irs takes more measured to get the money back. They have done so. We also recommend Congress Give treasury the authority on Social Security administration so they can prevent these payments for being made. Not just here but across the federal governments activities. We also recommend that congress require that department of transportation to develop a National Aviation security plan for the communicable diseases. We recommended this in 2015 and so far theres not a plan because of bureaucratic wrangling by his responsible about his developing. The vessel in which aspirants will spread around the world, to quickly came through our Transportation System and always be behind the and thus become a National Aviation skinny planets coordinated and International Norms to protect safety in that area. So mr. Chairman, as i conclude my statement, on assure this committee that i want to continue to focus on this to meet her statutory responsibilities and report every two months. Also have about 40 audits underway now. So pleased they took the time to focus on a report and we look forward to working with congress. In the administration to make sure that these programs are prospectively and efficiently implemented to the benefit of the American People. In our economy. Thank you very much. Thank you for much for your testimony. We will now go into q a. Each member will be granted five minutes. The mate recognize myself for five minutes. According to your report, federal governments 677 billion in response to the hispanic is may 31st 2020. Without much money at stake, robust and sustained oversight is essential. If the executive branch cooperates did question is, why is it so important for the Trump Administration to cooperate with the gaos oversight. Two fundamental reasons. One will want to make sure we fairly represent their views and all the things they considered in carrying out this legislation. Our goal is to always provide a balance of fair comprehensive picture and secondly, we need the information in order to make our assessments. The data are critical to the analysis in the hearing out our responsibilities. So without the data, theres a totally incomplete picture. And what weve had. And i would note that in april, right after the legislation was passed my similar to all the departments and agencies the federal government. Explaining the fact that we were going to be doing realtime auditing. In monthly briefings to the congress and by monthly reports to the congress that we needed their cooperation. By and large we get the cooperation across the vast range of the federal agencies in the departments. Some of the irs commissioners made himself and his deputies available. And other agencies were very helpful. Thats one of the largest relief programs and its one in the history of the country. And it has failed to provide information critical to our review. Want to take a minute for that sba for its impact on the gao efforts to prevent ways tried and abuse in the ppe program. Two categories the most significant was access to the database and those characteristics we still dont know the what information they collect and with those other financial agents have so we were not able to do an analysis other than the data that they provided hopefully on their website as to aggregate data of Different Industries and different sizes of the loans. But we dont have the specific data yet. And this is why we said what we did. I listed support for members of congress on a bipartisan basis to encourage them and those efforts i believe have paid off. We didnt have it to do this report and secondly we didnt have access to the key Program People people were busy across the government to make time with us so they did make they were the ones we really wanted to talk to so now those officials have been made available otherwise we cant Tell Congress specifically what type of Companies Got this assistance risk analysis of what the potential may be for inflated applications misrepresenting the information they are pursuing a lot of investigations already. If you feel that information that you receive the last several hours and then names submitted are sufficient. And we dont have that we expected anytime if they say they promise to give us which is everything in the database and we will have sufficient information i will let this committee know one way or another as soon as we receive the information. I hope you will let us know very soon. I yield to the Ranking Member. To justify about the report as we have seen things so far i am encouraged to hear that you are testifying you are a negotiation to get the data you are looking for . Good faith negotiations so following up on my april letter they just didnt do it and to be overwhelmed to be fair with those statutory obligations Congress Said they want the information quickly so we have an obligation to talk to secretary minasian as well with the Small Business Oversight Committee. Is been cooperative . Yes. But the conversations have been good the one i had last night was the most promising. I appreciate that you share with us and to do with this much relief there would be millions of people out of work and millions of Small Businesses that would not even open they would be gone. We know that we want to make sure we get it right for somebody to suggest the administration is refusing to cooperate, that flies in the face of what you are testifying before us today. There is cooperation, negotiation that would be any request for data. Youve gotten a lot of data see feel like thats going on. It didnt start off that way. Its in a positive direction and ultimately thats what you want to go. You want to see cooperation and you are getting that. I am appreciate that. Do you know how many loans sba gave out all of last year . Now i know it is 36000. Four. 2 or four. Six. Four. Six sounds more in line. And in how many weeks. Eight weak. In a week. Giving up four. 6 million loans all of last year all 52 weeks they gave out 36000. That is not ten or 50 percent that is 125 in an eight week period in all of last year. By the way we should be applauding because we want them to do that we asked them to do that and move at rapid speed and limit our demand so to criticize them and that goes against the very things that we voted for in the passage of the cares act is that we asked them to do im glad they are doing and effort estimates of over 99 percent of all loans there is fraud and abuse rooted out to justify the irs is working to go after that many i would love to see the loan programs and any segment of the Community Going after those that are doing wrong within the eight week. Four. 6million loans in the way we all expected to do which is i think we should be applauding go after folks and to be aggressive on that front i do want to ask about testing. And complaining theres not enough testing and working with the fda to get them to move the red tape normally they would take and then people are complaining there are more positives. Would it be fair to say if you do more test to get more positive cases . One potential. Some of us have been demanding answers going against cmf guidelines on Nursing Homes and unfortunately to tens of thousands of people dying who shouldnt have. Would you help us get the data because they are refusing to give the victims families asking for that same data and the governors are refusing as we should all be able to have access with this in the Nursing Homes and to save thousands of more lives. We did a report recently that showed that 82 percent of the Nursing Homes pre pandemic were cited for violations for inspections. Half of the Nursing Homes cited for violations. Thank you mr. Chairman for calling and the controller for being here with an excellent report with the federal response if you go through the challenges and i just want to point out how helpful it is as you go to the coronavirus to have this report to find the problems and want to hear your solution for the one one. 4 billion sent out to dead people we may be sending out money again depending on how the coronavirus develops so are you checking with Social Security . Irs initially determined deceased people are anybody who filed a return in 2018 or 2018 or 2019 should be pay they knew they were paying people that were deceased then it became publicly and treasury said no. Because they will not benefit individual. So they stopped it Going Forward but then they had to give treasury temporary access to the death master file including information far more complete than what they had before so i have had a recommendation for the congress for years to pass legislation to give them access to the full death master file they will stop the payments that my own mother received the payment unfortunately she passed away february 2018 and my sister got on behalf right on the check it said deceased. She sent me a picture of the end of course she we turned it but a lot of other people did not. Irs post on their website if you got one of these please return it but we are suggesting they have a proactive approach. Its very important not just the stimulus payment that payments for agriculture, education or whatever. I encourage you to do that. Nothings that that over the goal line yet. Thank you. Returning to testing that the first test applied by the cdc with the strongest language to experience accuracy and reliability issues with testing nationwide during the critical early weeks of the outbreak and also to the concerns of the accuracy of the antibody and viral test continuing through june. So basically the impact and the ability to determine who had the virus. And the setback in terms to get the testing deployed in cdc relied on its own process to develop the test. It was their own test and then it didnt work. They had to because of concerns associated but then they opened up testing to the private sector and others and sba doing emergencies authorization. Quickly after that they could not get out of the gate quickly but since then engaging a broader range of people. With that emergency use authorization if there are problems. It is a significant issue. In your report you go into the process and then trying to get a and we clinic get it from other places. There was criticism of procurement testing of supplies did you find out why that they were competing against other states and supplies . And for them to come in and coordinate at a National Level to make it available to people and my state and other states are still asking for federal coordination. Did you find out why with a coordinated National Strategy for procurement of supply . Were still looking in more depth but this is true in the past including one of which was done last fall that there is always lack of clarity with the his endeavors federal agencies as well as state and local responsibilities so when you try to start one sort them out in the middle of an emergency we recommend our report we will keep for congress with greater clarity with roles and responsibilities. And to rely on the state and the testing have to figure out how to help them get those supplies with the unique authority with the defense production act and other things so they make a lot of effort and headway. But the problem keeps evolving. There is a unified command group made up of hhs for preparedness. Fema and cdc they are working together now. Time is expired. The gao issued a report that the Government Program on programs have problems and glitches. Not the first time that is happened. Comedy years have you been at gao . Today is my 47th anniversary at gao. [laughter] fortyseven years . Thank you for your service. Me times have you testified quick. Im closing in on 200. Weve done this at the Oversight Committee youve done on you been there many time times. And that 47 years in the 12 or 13 years how many reports have you issued . Thousands. I was number two so for 25 years i would say about 15000. And the federal government has some problems. Shazam. A newsflash. For trillion dollars the federal government spends they were telling Business Owners you have to shut down your business. So we spent 2 trillion and then they say we are shocked there were a few glitches . As the Ranking Member said we have the ppe program that helps families across the great country so now the democrats say we have a major problem its a good thing we did that cares ac act. Taking peoples property so they couldnt operate. This shouldnt be a big surprise but lets talk about the report that just came out. Referencing the governor from michigan according to the governor who testified before the house energy and commerce a few weeks ago the supply they received in the early days of the pandemic. Now the same governor who said you can buy a dishwasher but not a gallon of paint you may have a home on northern lincoln one lake of michigan you can go your property. As the Ranking Member mentioned why do you look at that . They would not let people buy a gallon of paint but they could not travel to their own property you can put that statement in the report but not the things that they need. And with guidance of march 13 on the nursing complex. And then to mandate except covid positive patients . Thank you mr. Chair. Yes they issued guidance with mandate those patients so heres what you should do right . I march 25th there was the governor the great state of new york who said you have to take those patients and you cannot test them before putting them in the nursing home. I have seen that yes. Did you look at that issue at all . We are looking at Nursing Homes. You know how me days the governor of new york told Nursing Homes you have to take positive one covid positive patients to know how me days he did that. 46 days. Contrast that with what the governor of florida did he said someone who has come into a hospital in the say of two negative tests and so they come back and be you did not get into that . What you are looking at it . The following of that guidance that was just put out. That data this committee could use the idea a 2 trilliondollar bill that has a few glitches everybody understands that we are trying to get the money out but the study that what matters what you are doing. We hope to have that later this fall and earlier this winter. 46 days the governor of new york when this was the worst putting positive patients back into the environment where the most susceptible people were. We need a study much sooner than that we knew this before he gave it to us. Thats what we need to know and how bad it really was the real numbers from new york that didnt follow the cms guidelines to cause tremendous harm to countless number of people and families and i hope it comes before the winter like soon. And we will move as fast as we can looking at ppe we have a body of work on this issue leading to the number of cases. We need hearings on that study asap. I yield to miss water. Thank you. I am appreciative to this information that basically identifies what has happened with the attempt to respond to this pandemic with several things and the facilities created of course by the ppe program with the response activity to do. Adequate safeguards that they are just going to eligible recipients and the report that teaches us the speed that they were processed in a limited safeguard is a significant risk was approved and of course this is all done in such a short period of time and we are spending record amounts of money. I want to ask you any legislation that is entitled the paycheck guarantee act . I have not heard of that. One of the members of the house has introduced a bill and the essence of that legislation is instead of trying to organize these different efforts to create these facilities we should basically pay people what they would be earning up to about 90000 and pay their rent and their bills in the way they would normally do it. I dont know how this works with ppe and Small Businesses but what you think about that idea. I can give it some thought and provide an answer offhand it has the benefit of going to intermediaries am not sure how you execute that so that they have Accurate Information but im happy to think more about it and give you thoughts. Will you yield for a moment. There are several European Countries have used this approach with the experience they have had and maybe let us know what you think we know that they executed the program and many of them or some of them took care of their clients first i talked with a couple of ceos and they admitted. Are you aware of that . Yes. Yes. But we will not be able to get that type of detail until we get the data. You know the banks, some of them, not all of them but those turned out to be the ones with the largest amount of loans. Tell me how did it happen that these hotels and restaurants could identify each of their installations to get a loan . How does that happen . My understanding that is a change in the legislation at the last minute to allow them to do that. It was part of the original legislation as i understand if im wrong i will provide a correction to the record or for the record but that allows that industry that have 500 people less per location. Did the sba sign off on that . I dont know their involvement in the legislation im sure the administration did if the president designed the bill. Did he undermine what the ppe was supposed to be about. I wouldnt secondguess the congress and legislation passed. I was assuming it was congressional intent. And for Small Businesses . The legislation they determined who is eligible that was in the legislation my understanding. Do you think the application for Small Businesses was too cumbersome . We were on looking at that. We will talk to Small Businesses there are some concerns about that as well as the application for loan forgiveness we will look at that issue as well. But with many respects they relied on Self Certification for we just havent been able to do that work yet because he went to go out and talk to Small Businesses that we dont have that information yet. Thank you you are now recognize. Thank you for being with us today we appreciate your years of service and i just want to follow up on the comments made with regard to the ppe program and this comes through what we worked a lot with and i know they got more money out the door in 14 days than 14 years. That significant what i saw was 280 million out of 350 million authorized. That is eight or town one 10000 percent do you find any that has less of a Government Program quick. I have not looked. If it is accurate it is a very good record. That came out of the media from those that is a pretty good record. Similarly with the stimulus checks going to people that should not get them what about the Social Security masterfile this is something you recommended for a number of years that we have never done in the Trump Administration doesnt give treasury access and we have not done that is that correct. Correct. And ive talked to secretary munition about this. It could have been a limit on eliminated if we did our jo job. Thats a reasonable hypothesis. Thank you very much also your charge here is to figure that pandemic on Public Health and want to follow up on that since we had a report in in the local political magazine here at roughly 65000 people die as a result of the lack of focus on their healthcare needs due to suicide lack of cancer treatments and new york city said they didnt do 80 percent of brown certain on brain surgery this is about 50 percent more people dying because of the lack of treatment versus cove it. We will take a look at that we are also focused in our report. We have been trying to focus on the numbers over and above that would be expected over a period of time and one of the factors we are looking at but this issue is very important. Very quickly i have one more question. This is the indicator and those procedures people think it is nonessential but these are procedures for people with preventative care. 650,000 and cancer treatments those that are not diagnosed that is just on the cancer side. One more question with regards that there is an increase in the number of cases detected. We are testing more you would anticipate more positive test as a result. Have you looked at the percentage of hospitalizations because if it was that the same potency you would have the same number of hospitalizations and deaths but anecdotally thats not happening can you verify that . Its an important point to watch the number of cases the hospitalization and those are all indications of the spread. What we pointed out in the report is in terms of hospitalization and the number of icu beds filled and that something we will continue to track. Three weeks ago the university of Pittsburgh Medical Center that somebody told me yesterday where they do the research to develop polio vaccine that the virus is losing its policy mutating to a lesser strain more positive but less hospitalization and less death that indicates this is the case. I think its a very important point that needs to be made with regards to the medias only telling you that case it on cases are increasing but hospitalization and death continue to go down in most hospital still have capacity. Those are all important i would note hospitalization and death tends to lag so we have to look in a couple weeks to see how the data changes. Thank you. You are recognized for five minutes. Thank you comptroller and from the beginning i have been calling for the administration to provide congress with detail data with the ppe it is our job to be good stewards of taxpayer dollars to make sure they are working as we intended to indicate on wednesday that both congress and gao would be receiving data today. Its a good step but we must work to guarantee to collect Additional Data for the oversight responsibility. This brings me to my third question. Sba indicated to me they contacted gao so have you responded to sba and gao to securely receive the data . Yes. We have. We are in discussions about the details of how that would be done and we definitely have the ability to secure the data tax data and healthcare data of all stripes. In the same vein when they will provide you with access so you can conduct interviews . There has been one date offered so far but im not sure about that. To compare sba by 2019 for what they have done in today is ridiculous. They have this loan program of sba and beyond that they cannot land any money. And the cuts the agency has suffered under this administration. Budgets have consequences. Its what they should have done. It is a result of the money being cut. So the first report noted that fda implementation did not align with the cares act to prioritize the underserved market had gao been able to draw any conclusions as to what implementation failures led to so many minority owned businesses from being shut out of the ppe program . We will look at that issue. But until we get the information, we are not in a position to determine that. For my understanding we did not collect demographic information and they are trying to collected as part of the loan forgiveness application, but its voluntary i dont know how many will submit the information but we will try to look at that is our key objective. You know they expressed to force sba to shut down is gao in the future reports i take issue that may have resulted in some businesses not being able to access loans while all businesses may have received more than one loan. We will take a look at that issue. Do you think that is important for the Small Business community to have access so that if we need to make changes or at the Administration Says we need to approve more money with more relief how do we know if the program is working as intended by congress . How many times to come before the committee . It is not right we expect for them to come forward they said they will be coming so what intentions you have Going Forward with this program answer is i have no data i have no information to be able to make any responsible decisions at this point. Thank you. I yield back. The chair is recognized for five minutes. The spike of new coronavirus cases as with all Public Health decisions we face this year we have to make sure we take a holistic look at the data to ensure we have the truth and not a preferred narrative. It is alarming if the alarming spike due to the increase spread or is there another factor . Be honest United States is testing people for the coronavirus at unprecedented rates and more people are willing to see the doctor as a country we open so of course we see an increase in cases Public Health experts estimated we have ten times the number of cases of coronavirus than being accounted for in testing doctor Francis Collins from nih observed in the past, the number of people who have not yet turned up in a Healthcare System that are already infected is probably 100 times the number of cases you know about. Even cnn reported this week a new study suggest 80 percent of cases were never reported in march because we werent testing as broadly as we are now. We have known since the beginning likely there were far more cases overall than just the confirmed cases and as we ramp up testing we see that to be the case. The university of pennsylvania reinforced this point to change your mindset and focus not exclusively on a number of cases but the severity of the illness. But yet they continue to point out cormack fewer people are being admitted and when they are they tend to be much less sick than the peak phases of the pandemic. Look at the hospitalization rate, the cdc reports for 65 years and older covid hospitalization rates are within the rates observed at points during recent influenza season. That is good news and clearly not out of the woods we have to look at the data and context asserting the president has failed to contain the virus because the cases are going up is blindly uninformed or blatantly malicious. First the goal is to flatten the curve not stop every person from getting the virus. Its physically Impossible Trust me i am a physician. Anyone honest will realize cases are going through the roof because were testing to the roof so we have to have more test or now that we are the president has failed us because were testing my with more positives . Most people see that ridiculous hypocrisy. The media continues their narrative marching in lockstep with democratic colleagues to ignore the context and the facts as they came in today a man was running on the sidewalk no one within 100 yards yet he was wearing a mask while running. This speaks to the irrational fear the media has caused they also ignore the fact reopening society will save lives in other ways, cancer screenings deemed nonessential but in reality are very essential social isolation has devastating healthcare consequences can come to an end if we open up and americans can get back to work, pay their ren rent, feed families and save for college. Other data is suspicious colorado governor just revised the state deaths down by 12 percent they were counting even automobile accidents from a trauma death even if the patient had a virus. 12 percent . Have you looked into how states are counting their deaths and if so will other states be revising down 12 percent . One of the findings in our report is the testing data cdc has been reporting is inconsistent and not complete not all data has been reported. States try Different Things differently and there has been a problem. We were getting ready to make a recommendation but on june 4th cdc finally use the Authority Congress gave them in the cares act to set out testing requirements to all labs in the countries so hopefully. Hopefully is not 12 percent being revised down. Or hopefully it is. And then we get a contextual picture. Manipulating the data to fit the narrative is damaging and i ask that we stop and especially in this committee. Thank you. Thank you. I agree with that and also to ignore science is damaging to our country. I practice evidencebased medicine. You have asked but those in person we have accommodated you i would love for those recommendations. With sixfoot social distancing you dont need a mask. We are 6 feet apart when i came in today put the mask on because i walked past people know im in to see i need a mask. You are a scientist. You are a physician. Clinician, yes sir. Anyone walking past you and you dont have on a mask you wear a mask to protect them. Yes if they dont i put mine on absolutely. I will yield that i just want to say this if you continue to have these meetings in person people will have to adhere or i will not have the meetings in person. Thank you mr. Chairman. A point of order. I would like to raise the question if we are sitting here without a mask, and we are speaking is it possible we could have the emissions on the microphone around us . And if somebody comes behind us do not wear a mask and then we are basically admitting on the table . Have we been told by the scientists that the virus remains on the surface depending if it is word or steel et cetera and if you contact that surface and have admitted emissions that are positive then you can become infected. I will yield now to one of my favorite scientist. Mr. Chairman. It seems common sense that you should not put covid positive patients back into Nursing Homes that seems more common sense and that is the study we need as i indicated earlier. I do have some control over the subcommittee and i will exert it. Please rest assure i will exert that control that i do have. The greatest best hope from the crisis is through the development of safe and effective vaccines and therapeutics and has been made by scientists around the world and many are entering advanced Clinical Trials but developing manufacturing and distributing vaccines and therapeutics are challenging and complicated task in a compressed timeframe with the International Supply chain this requires not only great scientific efforts the good technical all project management real strength the gao this unfortunately we havent always seen in the federal response. While multiple federal agencies are taking action to prevent and treat covid19 questions remain about timing and distribution. This should not be used as partisan hatchet i know from conversations with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle on this committee that there is a great appetite for congress and the American People to get the best possible information on the timescales on the results of these efforts. Also conversations from scientist and executives there is a desire for them to present the full complexity of their efforts but actually detailed briefings on the detail uncertainties but every elected official is sitting mayor cannot make plans if they dont know whether a therapeutic will be available next month or if not for years. This is the best scientific information on mondays will happen from a neutral thirdparty that the gao is uniquely qualified to provide for us. And to have expertise with project management so what capabilities does the gao have today to provide vaccine of Therapeutic Development and what might be able to stand up to help this committee address these efforts. We have been building in science and Technology Areas with a phd in microbiology that has experience with vaccine therapies on staff within one week and we have other people who have served to build vaccines to distribute them. We have great capabilities also with the National Academy of sciences we completed a joint study on use of Artificial Intelligence and drug development. I also had people on my Advisory Committee making themselves accessible including the president of the institute of medicine. We have inhouse capabilities and standing arrangements for additional expertise. In my many years of science i have been on the receiving end of gao. And i made the projects better but have them to come in or those questions i dont have answers for but is there a contingency plan . What are your plans if it mutates you deploy a therapeutic and what is your backup plan . Asking those questions will make it stronger and then to give better information on the most important question that we are facing as a world. We are planning to do that. We have had good conversations on both sides of the aisle. I am standing up getting and agreement and to get that information like your access to the database to get the answers that we need to have access to things like the details of the contractual arrangements that they were purged in almost realtime this could be the most valuable thing this committee could end up doing. We will make arrangements to do that like a major Weapon System and we are happy to do that. It is essential to attacking thoroughly with proper safeguards and other therapeutics. A unique situation i appreciate that and i yield back. Thank you mr. Chairman. I just want to start with a few facts 124,415 deaths from covid19. More than two. 4 million cases of infection among people. Hospitalizations in texas are up more than 215 percent since memorial day 10000 new infections in todays. Arizona as of yesterday had more than 60000 cases, 1467 death and it continues to spiral out of control. Mr. Comptroller general the gao has questions about the irs handling of the impact statements of stimulus checks to get people through the nightmare hundred 60 million payments have been made but there are challenges to the most Vulnerable People those homeless, limited or no Internet Access for English Proficiency would you agree these populations are vulnerable during a pandemic and are in need of federal support . Absolutely. Should this be a top priority to reach these populations . Yes. Starting the Interagency Council on homelessness and then to help individuals coming out of presence so we will look to see if we have additional suggestions. Your report says facing difficulties for those who did not file tax returns including recipients of lower adjusted gross income this is below 12000 per year and one estimate there is as many as 12 million who may be at risk missing out on the Economic Impact statement so what should treasury and irs be doing without further delay . They need to explore different data sources thats what we will look at make recommendations. As a matter of urgency are besieged with people who desperately need this money. We are working on i hope to have the recommendations at the next bimonthly report. I hope your people are working through the weekend. We cannot read on produce that report in nine days unless we are working 24 7. The gao report reporting payments to americans who have already died i heard from those who said we have a check for my wife or husband who is no longer with us apparently aware that this is happening back in march but it wasnt corrected until months later. What is up with that . The irs original determination the law required them to send a check to everyone who filed a return in 2018 and 2019. They figured that would include those people. They did it with foresight that is what they are supposed to do spirit that seems to contradict common sense they thought it should go to people who have died so what is the law . I agree. What we believe that was treasurys interpretation after that the intent was to help people affected by the situation that would not include people deceased so they stopped after the irs made the first three payments so they should not have been sent in the recommendation is to get as much of the money back as possible. They change that policy of sending checks to people who have died. Correct they stopped after the first three months. I yield back. The chair recognizes mr. Kim for five minutes. I just want to begin by what came up earlier in this hearing talk about cdc guidance with social distancing they went on to the website and i want to confirm cover your face and mouth when around others and keep 6 feet between yourself and others it doesnt say it is one or the other but both social distancing and using a mask. Moving forward i am very concerned about the Trump Administrations pelvic failures coming to ppe and medical supplies. According to the gao report there was a department at hhs to determine domestic manufacturing capacity is unable to meet the demand for ppe and other supplies in the Global Pandemic one month before the pandemic and the administration failed to act on these findings the nationwide need for critical supplies to respond to covid19 exceeded the quantity in the stockpile. Do you agree the Strategic National stockpile has a supplies needed during the pandemic . Yes. That has been acknowledged they are trying to fix that and will revamp the stockpile Going Forward. The exercise you talk abou about, its called crimson contagion and pretty much an exercise that mirrored what has happened with this particular situation and to identify thing things. They told us they didnt have enough time to react to the findings and did brief some members of congress. But they try to revamp the National Stockpile now. Those left over from each one and one and then were provided with a caveat. What steps could have been taken . The issues we raise this before there were not old enough ventilators and hospitals in around the country we have raised these over time. Our country has difficulty the hardest part is to act to prepare ahead for things. Is not unique to any administration its a problem i have seen throughout my career in government. Everybody preceding had it to act on it but the money wasnt appropriated are allocated properly we are looking at more details but clearly steps could have been taken previously and recently spent some of the problems facing with the government response was a few glitches word you look at the supply of ppe has a few glitche glitches . I wouldnt. Its also coordination and this is something raised with reports of the federal acquisition with the Strategic National stockpile resulting in challenges how did that lack of coordination hurt the supply. Early on hhs took lead later it was shifted to fema then White House Task force came in to bring in people to focus on the supply chain. Would you categorize it as a a few glitches getting ppe to states and hospitals. No. One last part is said he requested on the stockpile inventory prior to the pandemic those estates requested as well fema distributed from the National Stockpile as a request you do not have that information as of june 12 that seems like basic information what is necessary what it is meant to do have you received that information yet. We have not. What did you make that request. Not as specific date but we made it fairly early on. Have you been given a reason why . We have not. Do you know how much is in the stockpile right now . I do not. Who pays for our stockpile . The federal government by appropriation and as the comptroller general has mentioned the appropriations very easy chair for what has been provided to maintain adequate supplies of the stockpile. Correct comes from the government and the American People they stockpile and they need to know and under threat from the virus and we face the threat of wave and they deserve to know if we are ready and your testimony makes me concerned we are not ready. Back to you. We have questions from all members i would like to yield to the Ranking Member. Thank you mr. Chairman for holding this hearing for your report and testimony appreciate the fact youre working with the Trump Administration to file this report to give us proper oversight and in your testimony you get that cooperation from the Trump Administration clearly there are other issues you will work through with the sba they have been overwhelmed. Last year they issued 36000 loans in eight short weeks with four. 5 million to the same program over 125 percent increase of workload had a time we knew we had to move expeditiously to save jobs and businesses so they have the ability to pay their mortgage and get back to work and have their careers before them it is unprecedented in terms of the response and the quickness we have seen tests that would have taken two years for the sba to improve have been approved in weeks removing red tape i have plod the Trump Administration for operation warp speed to push more results and cures and therapies and revolutionary changes that prove effective for many people that would not have happened without the Trump Administration moving red tape out of the way to save lives and search for a vaccine that we see in the private sector. We need to continue to push for those reforms and expeditious response. Clearly when you move expeditiously there could be mistakes made its good to look at what those are and correct them i am glad you testified you see agencies that based on your findings that you presented so far the ppe program has 90 percent success rate that is revolutionary for Program Giving out four. 5 million Small Businesses with taxpayer dollars used properly as we all voted for two help the Small Businesses quickly lets go find the folks who have used it and get the money back im glad they are working to do that to suggest a program over 99 percent success rate is a failure for shouldnt have happened is ludicrous. Millions of families would be out of work those that would be closed those numbers are dropping and again we look back to the science. Why did we do this . Not to hope that nobody gets coronavirus but in the real world we know its there so do we just shut everything down and let the economy wrecked the livelihood . There are thousands of people dying because they are staying home not getting their checkups and mammograms and immunization immunizations. Children will die because they are not getting immunized there is a cost to keeping people at home as well we talked in this committee with the nursing home crisis. Yes every state experience nursing home death but not at the same level. Look at the data we have so far we try to get more data because they are hiding the data. But if you look at those states that violated the guideline guidelines, tens of thousands of people die that should not have died. Im glad you are looking into it and we hope you do that quickly as well because we need to stop it from happening like in michigan we know its killing people to force Nursing Homes they cannot isolate those positive patients they are killing tens of thousands. The state of texas had 700 percent fewer nursing home deaths per capita than the state of new york every state had nursing home death but not all experienced the same thing 500 percent fewer nursing home deaths per capita than the state of new york. We should be looking where its working and say what you follow the guidelines . I would love to have zero nursing home death but those fewer in one state why are they doing it right why are they not and finally mr. Chairman looking at the icu beds the economy is close down to make sure hospitals dont get overwhelmed and as we speak today not a single state in the nation whose hospital is overwhelmed we see spikes and the governors are managing that but not in a single state has a Hospital System be overwhelmed thats why we need to reopen safely and to address the people that are dying because things are close down that has to be understood as well. I appreciate the report. I hope the governors of those five states comply with the letter we sent i will give a copy they are very specific they are just not sharing with the public we need to know more what happened in those states that didnt follow the federal guidelines and thousands of people died that should not hav have. We should find it out we will finally get the facts and uncover the scandal. I yield back. Let me close by thinking our guests. For being here today we appreciate all the work you do to hold our government accountable especially during this pandemic. To make clear there are tangible steps the federal government can take now to increase transparency, demand accountability and you receive federal funds and ensure the tax dollars are used to help the American People. And not to waste fraud and abuse thank you to the Ranking Member to draw attention to what happened last month and the month before we at all like to know and south carolina, my home stay in georgia and florida and texas and oklahoma all the states are speaking within the last week. And i am interested in last week. And what we can expect next week and as opposed to where the coronavirus came from and spending a similar time to find out where it goes next to be prepared for it thinking the gentleman from illinois, i am old enough to remember the last time the country wrestled with vaccines. I was the school kid jonas salk then there was a little serum with a lump of sugar. And then it was more effective. We have to remember which communities got socks in which got saved. I grew up in the communities where they got salt, the least preferred and least effective. I know there are in 18 countries supposedly searching for a vaccine. Thats what i want to see this committee focus on. What vaccine comes forward and where they are allocated. Not just the efficiency but how effective it will be and how equitable it would be distributed. And that of which is not equitable. To revisit that order to continue it so to be concerned about the future so let me just read for our benefit for the United States house of representatives meeting and a limited enclosed space such as a Committee Hearing room for greater than 15 minutes face coverings are required. And all capital that is it me but the attending physician and not to have another meeting in a confined space for more than 15 minutes if we will not abide by this. I will stay in the safety of my home i would ask all of you to do i grip and believing the first sign of a good education is good manners. I think its good manners to look out for your fellow staff wearing masks. Would you yield. Thank you for yielding as doctor green pointed out how to properly social distance and we are following those and i understand doctors might look at things differently even wanting to give precautions with those that are out there are clearly followed in doctor green pointed that out none of us wants to put anybody in harms way thats why there are votes on the house floor safely and properly with the necessary supplies and speaking podiums one person wipes down the area another follows the guidelines. Just like here. I really wish we could work this out pursuant to your suggestion given the exact instruction of the capital physician. We dont have a cure right now or the treatment or vaccine. We have one thing which is Public Health guidance doctor fauci and cdc in the vast majority who do not think this is a hoax or invented or political the one thing we can do is to put on her masks and keep her distance. I dont understand why my friends and the minority that are sincerely motivated would lambaste with Committee Meetings and proxy voting Everybody Needs to be here and then show up and not wear a mask and put terror and fear into colleagues and your staff ms. Waters lost her sister many colleagues have gotten it 125,000 of our country men and women there is no other country in the world that wearing a mask is a political or ideological statement its a health measure. You have to wear a jacket on the floor of the house people tease our friend about never wearing a jacket. I dont care. Thats a fashion statement. But when he doesnt wear a mask and interacts with other people in the Legislative Assembly it is dangerous. That is a Public Health menace. Can we all agree we will abide by the chairmans suggestion and the capital physician strict recommendation to go forward and meet together as much as possible as opposed to driving us away. In reference to mr. Jordan as a public menace i hope you are not referring to him. And within 1 foot of our friend it happened and whispered to each other. We may think we are in a 6foot bubble but we are not ive seen on both sides of the aisle to hang around with social beings did you see what happened with the Pennsylvania Legislature one came down and told his party and then created panic so why are we the only country on earth this is a matter of debate instead of Public Health order why dont we follow what they tell us to do . Let me say before i cite this study that just came out june 27 come if you put the gavel down that i will wear my mask but i want to inform the Committee Just published on june 27 with a look at all these other studies and compile the data to draw conclusions with hopefully more confidence they are looking at more studies across 16 countries on Six Continents to found a 1 meter distance increased or decreased the risk with modern certainty the data is convincing enough there is high certainty that the conclusion is accurate but on a mask issue it is low certainty that makes a difference then new england journal of medicine one of the most respected had an article that said outside the healthcare setting the masks dont work it was referenced earlier about home valid on home life the documents are passed around here all the time are we sterilizing each document before we hand it to each other . I have not seen it this is there to go to the bathroom and come in and touch others in the next person comes along to collect it we are not doing surgical sterilization. If you say wear a mask i will wear a mask but i want us to make decisions based on sound data and information. You yield. Yes sir. You arguing we should not meet in person. No sir. Not at all. There is no certainty. The mask may not work so maybe we ought not to be meeting in person. Asking my clinical opinio opinion, patience and high risk categories to anyone 65 years or older shed wear a mask and if you dont him telling people in tennessee is not required. But if i understand it that mask is not to protect me but other people in the event and the majority of those are of asymptomatic or presymptomatic we have members of congress who did not realize they had they were fraternizing with everybody else and we would do that if that was the rules so why is it so complicated . That is put on a mask it doesnt cost anything my would we do that . Why is it macho if i dont wear a mask . If you want to be tough go spend the day with the nurses and doctors in the hospital and they say everybody where your mask. Listen to them all First Responders say save us and for your mask. I can cite many other professionals that site the opposite. Thats the challenge we are in right now. Im not wearing a mask. Send us the medical advice people dont wear mask . I can share literature with you. The cdc . I know what they are putting out. Thank you mr. Chairman. All members have five legislative days to submit additional questions which will be forwarded for their response i ask our witnesses to please respond promptly as you are able. So with that, this hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations]