It is an honor to be asked questions about him will be doing this for an hour or maybe a little longer and if you have questions want to send in, you will see a q a box at the bottom right of your screen and you can send a question the latter part of this event, alex will answer some of those. To start us off, alex is as im sure many of you know, the Research Director Great Program on extremism at George Washington university which has become a go to resource for many people letting this topic. So why dont we start by asking argue take an interest on this and maybe you can fill us in a little bit on your background explain that. Think you for doing this. We been in touch over the years with shared interest in her article the 2000 the last decade with incredibly, it is my pleasure drinkers. Came across my radar around 2007 i just started as a researcher looking at activism into the uk in particular. As i was getting to know if the individuals and the networks in the uk, this name kept coming up as a reference, a speaker been posted from yemen, for he was. You are in the uk, at least figure in the early 2000s so he was this known figure. Became clear to me by the end of last decade, the sky was perhaps the most influential range of different activists, islamists activists not necessarily jihadist but overall worldview is having this wide appeal and i just started following everything was saying and doing, getting to the the people who were his followers and getting to know where he was being screened and live streamed and must. Who heard him speaking live . Yes, i went community. We got to know him so well that i ended up at the time. We spent time trying to get the authorities to become more aware of the fact that there was this guy who was jihadist, being deemed live streamed into british muslim is even fronting Islamic Forces forces, being involved with that. He was his father became an obsession, i guess. It manifested into doing one on him from 2010 to around 2014. Slowly it became this book which has taken us a criminal amount of time to publish, mostly my fault. This is a guy who spent almost exactly half of his 40 years he lived in the u. S. Half abroad most in yemen, it is interesting call this western jihad, walk us through his unusual biography and tell us what his connections were to the u. S. And the uk. One of the things i mentioned early on the biographical story of iraq he had kind of been done largely by yourself. Very good for him and while there is components in the book, i have to map his own ideological position and place him traditions and as well as understanding his own intellectual history of explaining how and why he was an effective indicator jihadist. That is what the book we can start his career in colorado he rose there at one small local mosque and very soon into his work, it became clear to people have an ability, he was doing things western islamic preachers doing at the time. This explains popularity. On his early work, much most of it that he was famous for, basically historical accounts mostly profit but also his companions. The second most important primary test, less reliable they bring together a lot of sources from history. That is pretty much all of his work translation previous existing history into english and also presenting them to a western audience, making them relevant speaking to a lot of influential preachers america and others, many of them told me, no one had done this before. No one in america in english translating this and making it widely available he got the attention of saudi businessmen. So he became, in the small world of islamic stores in the u. S. And abroad, so the best selling, a best dollar, this is a guy who always grabbed the latest technology for reaching his audience and these were, essentially fee is almost equivalent of bible stories he was elaborating on. Stories from the Old Testament of battles and heroes and he had a knack for storytelling in that way. Yes. Storytelling is a big part of his overall success which i get into later and you have to understand islam in america at the time and how it was conservative. Having at the time the way it would work the conference somewhere on the east coast or west coast new york, new jersey people for great they would disseminate their work, so it usually with audiotape back then. I spoke to people who worked for the company that produced it was old cases, passed around, saudi businessmen who set up, completely revolutionized that whole industry and he not only got on tv, he packaged it, the packaging was really professional, high budget and it was in the place. This marketing push someone saw a potential so from those logistical parts of how islam was presented, is quick to become fast he was, we think this guy is a leader of al qaeda, a leading voice for al qaeda, someone who endorsed silas and someone who is a major terrorist and, that is not who he was but try to place in the world of western islam, american is ideologically at that time. Was he a radical . No. When you put him down as ironical. A quick overview, when rocky emerged out of what the book does is it attracts the spectrum we describe as activism. He prevented the way he dressed, he presented what i argue is in the u. S. , next time identified in the late 70s, early 80s its what you nonpolitical known activist, is concerned with indepth study, no real engagement with politics or the outside world or outside society or any that was found on taking this line from hemphill they were transmitting all of america. It was done in this society, i spoke with a lot of people were members of that group in it and think the request was going to come and study with us we are going to create a closed community we are not going to engage politics or activism. It was at that time . They were being weary of him testing. The fact that it was a society which was essentially a quiet movement, divided into categories is a lot of detail we dont have the time now but in america, became internet 90s organization emerged islamic association, that was the american elation activism, essentially engaging in politics, engaging in discussing going on dont think about fighting the hot. The activists are saying we need to employ methods that involved activism, some type of engagement the outside but still, a lot of studies indepth and intellectual theological, a focused movement. A lot of it emerges for influence attention he offers this way, it is really engaging with politics and Society Information relevant to that. It is also activist but not activism that i wasnt doing a real indepth study, is almost entirely a narrative account very engaging and well translated. Managing to offer this. Described to me the first time but it was like was relying on the sources but he wasnt going indepth on the issues on theology. This made him a unique proposition for these people. This was a big thing you mentioned, in virginia across from washington when he got quite a following, slightly successful young hotshot mom and then along comes 9 11. Some of our audience may remember, may be old enough to remember he got quite a bit of attention from the fbi because two of the hijackers had been his most in san diego and after he moved to washington, a third showed up so they kind of wondered what was . Take this from what happened after 9 11 to his departure in his life overseas. Allowed him to place him a little further so there were different kinds of mosque in america, studying it, you have frost better usually quite close saudi the way you imagine sometimes you have islamist inspired mosque. That is after close a lot of people, a sign unless you have influence your thinking. Components of the theology and presentation is the most activism somewhere in the category of horses analysts hear more about get people know about their position idea is still a mystery i was in a Multicultural School and had a good idea but was by any means anything we knew about. Does this to find the kind this together is fairly critical of al qaeda. A lot of attention and praise as a result but one of the things the book does a couple of sections are provided in his later work in his early work had influences under the direction make going depending how it unfolds, it becomes clear, is a big fan of. This was while he was in the u. S. . Yes, there were things he was saying and using in one of the first big flags was his endorsement the idea the world is being run by islamic law. His using interpretation early on in his career, and there was another example where he was using sources only have found jihadist work, this is where many pal kept saying they have their own reason repeatedly say the 90s an early 2000s, i was told this by a lot of time worried with the way recently justified data, and very quickly it was legitimate couple to prove the early 2000 happened the Jihad Movement emerged, and i think that other options this happened i the world, ideology doesnt change because the methodology. This influence it methodologies are subject the apocrypha as the world changes get them jihadist two of which are in america predecessors. I think i remember, after 9 11, american native english is very good at explaining things the Washington Post did a video you can still find on the web later in his basement explaining, to americans, then, he and the 9 11 attacks, he always tried to balance the just as it is wrong to bomb children and women in afghanistan, it was wrong for al qaeda to attack on 9 11 always doing this balancing act that time so leaves the u. S. In 2002 hundred trucks ainsley happened in the u. S. At that time, agencies attention to islamic u. S. He goes to the uk again, what america time described, it is dark. In the history of the relationship between british. We are gearing up afghanistan, theres a lot of attention on muslims a couple of years away from 2005 we were getting here in iraq. The history of the city against the iraq war, is a lot of activist organizations claim things and great divisions and for group it was a really brazen and in the book, the kind of stuff mainstream, think back then. Things like threatening to stop cooperating with the police certain demands were met, making claims that a legitimate mainstream all this kind of stuff that was quite different from that he left in america. Muslims were on the defensive after 9 11 that they knew they were being watched carefully and it was a rally around the american mainstream muslims to keep them intact but finds much more amenable to radicalism . Yes. Big time open support for defense think the uk invading iraq, will be justified for them to be killed. These were things going on. I was just reading a statement, mainstream soliday organization, at the time, big fans, when it came to england, the problem around this is a statement they put out and ill just read part of it, essentially saying muslims are being demonized, previously, muslims themselves under attack, how the agenda is to attack them. This is an Islamic Organization saying the idea of islam is a political system and idea that should be established as a completely straightforward mainstream idea. The age of isis, that is a shocking thing. Thats the kind of stuff they were saying fan. This is the atmosphere becomes interpreted a couple of one that was very influential ultimately is influenced by them. Gives a speech with is a big event in the uk, it was heavyhanded, arrested and brushed up by police Campaigning Group emerged. Again, i think it was fair enough to an extent complication and the campaign emerges in part of the campaigning i mentioned already . This threat, it involves top property essentially, the present work on islam presenting keep things personalized iraq war, israel palestine, afghanistan. A big part of his job was to make it from accusing an example for things, other recent things attempted by the British Government to extend the amount of time all caps on on territories without charge all of this concerns and he splayed up inside, clouds are forming around muslims in the west i give you all these examples so does that. Let me interrupt to say i want to tell folks who didnt hear me before, click on if you have a question, click on the q and i thought the lower right of your screen right question for us. We will turn to those questions and answer as many as we have time for so what happened to the output at that time in the years when he was in the uk and when he moved to yemen after a year or two in the uk . See continuing, theres this bestseller, box set stories of the prophets and someone what happened to his output but was he finding an audience beyond that . Please speeches, very influential part, he also started translating the first thing he translates something called jihadist, it is a medieval text and it is justification for physical violence in that era. Its not considered an important text, it is not a key thing that needs to be translated. It is important for jihadist but it is not something that has a wider intellectual academic value. Different modern relevance and attended the event and an agent who had gone and attended the event realized he was sitting with the future bombers in back. Thats the kind of people doing that. It was very suspicious. Many of them of the time in the uk, anti jihadist work worried about these meetings and translating morning everyone. Thats the first big sign hes taking another step which is making informed jihadist ideological work not just make sense to us giving them reference relevant to their life but are accessible in english ways that were never before so he translates back in the uk it is all audio video. The book up jihadist was in pretty much soon after that, he goes to yemen. I wonder when he left uk, her recollection is that he had money problems, profession pay for in the uk, he of course had family, extended family father was a prominent member of yemeni society, a former minister and chancellor two different universities is from a family, getting back to that but do you have any sense that he was headed for yemen in part because there was a branch for thinking about that . It is not clear. A friend of his in the uk i spoke to who said there were things he was saying was suspicious there was some space in yemen, he wasnt very clear but couldnt get more than that. That time in prison and it came out, i think is a couple of years before they drink but in the interim, other major things happen and began 2005, yemen, he translates so i was the next step modern jihadist text, very important 11 example himself to translate. This time, an academic exercise to take a look, you need to read and understand whats so important, how it will never e end. It was, repackaging it. Reframing references for thought. Talking about it early on, his adoption of technology throughout it seems an obvious thing but at the time, it was not all that normal for him to use Live Streaming or any form. The original one came out, i think it was an audio on youtube, it was mainstream. We have time for questions here so fast morning epic, he connects with product, the saudi yemeni branch of al qaeda and hines his home is in the province that his family is originally from. He leaves the capital of yemen, moves to the boondocks family at home and connects with al qaeda. He makes this whole journey from denouncing 9 11 pulpit in the u. S. To becoming more and more openly extremist in his talk and the world is changing at the time, the u. S. Invaded afghanistan after 9 11 the u. S. Invades iraq theres plenty of evidence for what hierarchy is talked about and he ends up spokesman for al qaeda, a leader of this sort in the democratic branch, a leader of extremely influential. You say in the analysis your account, you found is influence could be found in at least 66 to 12 people accused of jihadist crimes in the u. S. That is remarkable. To what do you attribute, heres this guy often yemen, what you attribute is enormous influence on european muslims in terms of newly jihadist violence . One of the things in the book, and most western jihadist preachers, it wasnt a first and hes not a must but is most important. We have others in the uk, there are a lot of he started his career as a very mainstream interest additions like other artists most guys jihadist. Everything they could many didnt talk about how to battle. He was able to started talking about jihadist writing jihadist wider project the other guys dismissed mainstream only talk about jihadist, its all they are interested in talking about a lot of other things. Natural part of his used to the honor framework based on his election by people involved collective action is basically protest any collective action and go to terrorism. If you look at how presented their ideas and created meaning, he did so using methods not realizing it, in this movement. He wanted to move beyond al qaeda and the organization there is a Wider Movement it may collapse, it is in the presentation. The book essentially explains the method that has all sorts of movements from actors lumbar response body, admitting movement idea to specific is very effective at doing that. It is presented as a waste of time and fascist movements do this a lot, there is a book i know in the introduction, true believer is for people who themselves have given up on and theyre looking for something, and through the storytelling, predict the i mentioned, he was able to create a shared narrative in a shared history and experiences that people could be a part of, when to do that and have people to share the collective identity, its a first step toward getting them to act on that. Before we turn to questions and im sorry we have to speed along but you do a terrific job of three particular cases of muslims in the west, one in nigeria who are deeply influenced by this guy and lured into jihadist by him. Why dont we talk about these three, maybe we will do them in the order in the depth that they went to in the jihadist movement. Lets start with zachary. Who i think stands for a lot of people. Tell us about zach. The book once it goes over and moves on to trying to get a sense of how exactly he impacted people and when and why, its three chapters, the first is on zach who is a wellknown case for those of you who follow closely in the three case studies on the basis that they represented three different types with activism in the west, that represented the classic example of someone who started online and took on the role of the propaganda, and quite long ago and took it on as their job to create online but then i started feeling for the outbreak of the real world and become an activist and influence heavily in much of the rest in jail and the u. S. The key things about him, the one time you see him is on a blog and yemen, he is one of the commenters on the blog in which case chesters own development from the young curious recent two jihadist and is actually really great example of strategic of what he is trying to do in the alqaeda years which is one of the key things he did and they said look, lets lower the bar for what it means to be involved in the movement, lets make it, before that the idea of the way you get involved, you gotta get out, travel somewhere and become a professional on the headquarter or somewhere. That was the idea, you would only be legit if thats what you are doing. But a lot came out and said, if you get online, youre also part of the movement, when you lower the bar you allow a lot more people in and you create a lot more potential for those people to start at that low run of activism and work their way up. Another one of your chapters, your case studies, the Army Psychiatrist who opened fire at fort hood in 2009. So that was a guy who did not have to go to the afghan border, was able to carry out jihad at home as they were telling him to do. Yeah, the book identifies moments in these peoples lives where they were expressing some kind of vulnerability and some kind of unease or questioning of their own identity themselves and it was his conversion to islam, it was a moment that someone could take advantage of. Interestingly, it was the death of his mother that sparked a new interest in islam and he resided over his mothers funeral we later find out and it was the first time he came across in one of the key things to keep in mind, i was lucky enough to be involved with an interview, a colleague of mine who published an excellent study and he was very kind to let me take part and she shared with me unpublished interviews that i used in the book and we ask what are the words that are most of her into him, this is a guy who conducted a mass shooting. Is not the jihadist of, its the early stuff. And to keep in mind with all these and all the islams were doing, if you asked them what their favorite stuff is, almost always the lack of mohammed, and also explains how he helps them understand and it was not just a physical involving the middle east, was an ideological effort happening in the west, they were i to identify in their backyard giving the immediate sense and when you offer that kind of immediacy, you have a better chance of getting people involved in though he told him not to conduct the attack and he was involved planning wise, and his understanding of islam, both early stuff in the later and they came to most americans when he wrote on his blog that he is a hero. Suddenly there was this guy who was in america saying in english on a much red blog that this guy was a hero and that was the first time that many of us, including me really took an interest in before we get to the question, your third case study is the socalled underwear bomber, the Christmas Day bomber in 2009 who tried to blow up the aircraft, airline over detroit. Tell us about him, he did decide to leave home and go to yemen. Yes we have the online activist who tried to become a foreign fighter and wants to go to kebab and help them and you have the classic blown actors not connected to anyone influenced online and reading in directly. And then you have the proterrorist, the guy who does it the oldfashioned way, goes to the terrorist organization in them the chapter carries over the family in the uk and what it look like in the time, lack how it looked when we were at the university analyses in london. In fact he was the president of Islamic Society and a member of the Islamic Organization, i read that statement. This is what he was in, and to idolize. And in fact, i found part of it that held the chapter, i think document released by the fbi, through foi, they had a suit for him. They were all on the website and they requested on the intervie interviews. A lot of interesting information which help me shape it altogether and one of the things he said when he was in london is all the Islamic Society members, all of his friends and people involved were major lucky fans and as well of the number of organizations he was a fan of of cage prisoners who are known today. In the reasons why he decided and the others didnt to actually go to yemen and meet him and betrayed by him are very hard to completely understand but what is important, to some extent was required to know that he was some extent a product of what was going on in the uk at the time and it was his door, his access to the Jihad Movement. He goes to yemen through a number of ways that i describe in the book and he is recruited with the bomb and attempt of Christmas Day. , there is a lot in the book that explains why he was so important to him and really this was a boy who is very he was very well read up on it, he was a person who is really very religious as well. Terrific. Why dont we go to questions now, we have 22 questions including a lot of Great Questions. By the way weve been given permission to go beyond noon for a while. So we will get in as many questions as we can, some are big and broad and some are pretty quick. All start with a quick win, win in the uk if ever did he come across the other extremist character who pokes me know about . Thats a good question. Strangely enough his time in the uk just predate as a figure. And what he was ahead of was part of his career, politicalism of the group in the uk. I know that his career had a relationship and were competing along with another with his attention and praise and i spoke to a former Senior Member at the time so the organization proceeded. He said in the end they have very little to disagree with and they saw him as a useful figure because he was a supporter which is what the hg is and in the end they were very similar figures, though i think he was a lot serious and more narcissistic in a more personal deal than anything else. Was he ever employed by the Saudi Embassy while he was preaching . Not that i know of. In fact one of the things that have to keep in mind he doesnt have much in formal training rather than the rest they did. They had gone entrained as Saudi University for years and years who were serious scholars, he was not as serious, he presented as such. And very little of his work contained any kind and depth academic discussion. For that reason, he was subjec h more accessible because he was asking little of his audience and they did not listen, there was no study or discussion. He spent some time in saudi arabia but no official qualifications. Not an employee as far as i know tell us about your relationship with the 9 11 hijackers when whom you had high contact. There is some speculation that maybe he was somehow in on the plot. I know you address this in your book in the same mind, its still one of the Big Questions, when you leave the 9 11 question report, theyre not convinced that he had nothing to do with it. There is still some Big Questions. In the end its actually the san diego that is a bit stranger, the mosque he was at in san diego was not the mosque you go to if you dont know the city. It was a mosque and a pretty bad part of town, you had to really know it, you had to be told to go there. He was just visiting the city at the time, you wouldve gone to the main market. These are the things that come up, what we told them to go there. And then of course not only that he goes across the country to virginia and they go there and end up at the same mosque again. I dont think he had involvement in 9 11. As we discussed in the past, had he done he wouldve admitted it later on when he was an open member of alqaeda he was looking to gain ability, he wouldve taken credit for knowing about 9 11 and he never did. My one thought, perhaps when they were sent to the United States, the guys were managing them and telling them what to do. We scoped out the scene of americanism at the time and said this guy is not a jihadist, he is also not saying things that we disagree with really either. The type of islam he was preaching would have swayed the views, you wouldve want to send him to a preacher that you hadism is wrong. He was not the guy that was going to do that. At the very least at the time he was glorifying in the early islamic at times they had to say look at this guy he wont do any harm and bolster, the emotional connection to it all. It was a speculation but i dont think he was involved. Mohammed as everyone knows was the main plotter of the 9 11 attacks he was going to college in this country as well. He studied in North Carolina and so he had a sense of the scene here and you know, it could be that there was a chain of connections without revealing any of the plot of course, i think the last person that he wouldve trusted he was an fbi informant, i dont think they would trust him with a plot but they mightve sensed a hopeful guy who is fluent in arabic and english and could help them out as he seems to have done. At least in terms of their living arrangements and so on. We have a question here, how would you characterize his operational role in a qap physically organizing rather than inspiring attacks of course i should say this was a crucial distinction when president obama ended up putting out him on the kill list, he did that because he essentially based on evidence that he had become an operational terrorist. He was not just an ideologue, he was participating in terrorist attacks. Including sending the underwear bomber to attack the u. S. What was his operational role in your understanding. Not to say the person asking the question has a misconception but there is a misconception that he was killed by the u. S. Government because of what he was saying. , a good book dirty words, makes this claim that he was killed because he was saying that we did not like andy said overall its a critique of special forces and in fact he relied quite heavily on this point. He ignored the fact that he was operational and decides not to address that. The fact is yes, we know he was a first told me know of at the time and he had a very direct and in terms of target selection, rapid securement, bomb securement, he connected him on a series of things. He was the main man behind the plot. The moment he did that he met the criteria of whatever you think the kill list mohammed had, he met the criteria for it. The book lay down lesserknown plots that he was in involved with a young nigerian went to avoid undergoing him and he plodded to go back to nigeria and recruit more members and we also know now that he was directly involved with the brothers, he went to murder in paris, he directed one of the brothers and gave him money to going commit that. Theres still an idea that a lock he was killed. That is what got peoples attention. But he met that criteria to be assassinated, whatever we think about policy through his direct operational and not just operational, strategically and this is been made at some point, we now see one of the ways that the movement attacks what, thats is tempted, lets not forget that he was human in summer maybe even, even more behind the idea, it was not popular for all kind at the time, bin laden did not like the idea, they thought it was notifying anna movement. Eventually alqaeda embraced and i think largely in one thing i was told of my students, today, ill give you the story of one of the chapters opens up on. In london a couple years ago and exhibition road the National History museum, the car jumped the curb and hit a few people and it hit the news media, it gets the attention, somewhere in our mind theres a thought of terrorist attacks, very soon after the event happened, the please feel compelled that is not being treated as terrorism related, isnt that a term, theres been a knifing, shooting, car jumping occurred in the middle of the city, is not being treated as terrorism related. I tell this to my students, ten, 15 years ago, that is not where our minds went when some random act of violence happen, thats where our minds go now, many people, the story i told you, when you heard another versions in times square or whatever. He did that to some extent, he created it that the attack the did take place were low impact casualty wise but they kept the movement in our minds and they kept it at the forefront of our mind and really to a terrorist and using terrorism as propaganda, which is really what it is, the main thing you want to do, you want to kill a lot of people, usually thats not the main goal, to keep the attention of your potential recruit, the loan actor developed and did that to the point where an hour doing the propaganda for them to having to address the fact that somebody jumping the curb and needless to say was not an attack on london. Someone jumping the curb remind us us of alqaeda all over again. Every time that happens they think that again. The roots of terrorism i like to remember is to cause to tremble. And in many cases, the post 9 11 years, the jihadist groups have managed to keep people on edge and see them as major players, here is a quick one, by the way we are past noon but were allowed to go on for a while we can go on for 15 or 20 minutes, we have a lot of Great Questions to tackle here, a quick one, what evidence is there that inspire magazine which for those who do not know was the extremely influential english language magazine in the peninsula. Whatever that the magazine was, the brainchild and he was the editor, i see this claimed a lot, is that true . In short yes, but there is a longer story. Basically an american saudi from charlotte who went over to yemen, he probably does not get a lot of credit and i wish i couldve done more and theres probably a book to be written about him, hes a very important figure and he was more important to inspire, to inspire, cover this in the book and people who are very important to hottie activists in america and in 2000. There is a magazine to inspire which is called to hottie recollection, you can look it up, it looks exactly the same and is a little bit rough around the edges but it was developed in the United States and by jesse morton who i spoke to he said he was actually involved with john recollection which is something i did not know until i spoke to jesse about it. He was getting instruction when he used to live in america in 2000 about what the recollection should contain. It was a brainchild of people like jesse martin, he was the guy who made it popular in the face of it and the guy who needed to drive it, all the Strategic Thinking in the presentation, a lot of it had to do with her. But he was very involved in the articles under his own name. He was the patron at least at that time and the honorary editorinchief. One of the things, jihad recollection, one of the stories that he tells me in the book, he wrote an article saying we should reshift our focus to the far enemy. Rather they near enemy without getting too much into that, he said we should stop attacking america and go back to tacking the secular leaders, that shall be alqaedas goal. They reprimand him for this and say no, he needs to focus on america. Even then he was very keen to keep the focus there. We have a number of questions that circle around the transformation from more or less mainstream acceptable, he was invited after 9 11 to speak at the pentagon, give a luncheon speech at the pentagon, you dont get a whole lot more mainstream than that. To a leader of alqaeda, what do you think what were the key factors in driving that change, dewpoint to any external event, any internal event in his life, do you really think it was an unveiling of use that he had all along but kept to himself, what drives him to change at least an external appearance erratically. I dont have a definitive answer, part of it has to be how i drive from the analysis but one of the first things i noted in here in the book, there was an influence in his work early on. The vast majority of people with those ideas dont become jihadist. That is on its own. What it means, before 9 11 happened and before the war on terror, he had a view of the world that as i said was pretty straightforward, there is a muslim and the rest of the world, the rest of the world presents as a great threat and put them in great peril as muslim. That was already the view, he also had a very romantic view of jet had including them being in palestine, he had a glorified vision of what it looked like. And as i said, i place them somewhere in the spectrum and as an activist. These are people who i said whose views and methodology is impacted by geopolitical shifts, they can change from saint dont fight it to fight it on an invasion or applicable moment. When 9 11 happened, the frame to which you viewed the world was shaped very much as ideology. It allowed him to take steps and ideological stride toward more open support and as they say in the book, if you look at his work in 2010 when hes inviting and inspiring, you look at his work in 99 or 98, theres not a huge difference as far as the sources he relies on. Its emphasis, whats really important, his view on how muslim should react to the threats. Initially, it was reacted protest and everything also now became hard and in his words he says i did that because i began with activism and i got to the point where i believe the situation was so dire that activism was not enough and violence had to be, thats a common story, they started with different lower form and lower risk activism and they move to higher risk when they realized they thought it was not working. Preexisting was a big part, 9 11, the world of changing event especially for muslims in the west cannot be ignored, it was threatened by the fbi or he knew the fbi had dirt on him including his involvement with prostitutes in which they may have threatened him with an said if you dont cooperate with us and become an informant, we will publicize this and a lot of people put that moment down as a radicalization that he is forced to leave america and how these options but there is a component of that. Others like to put the important on his imprisonment in yemen, like others who became a much more hardcore jihadist because of his experience in prison. I dont want to discount about lets not forget, he is already translating and endorsed in 2005 before he went to prison. So actually the only real change when he came out of prison was a slightly more stride in support an immediate support but it was already there and again, throughout the early work, i point out a couple of blocks, red flags that i think suggested this guy was all the playing with some ideas into how does him, he arrives sympathetic to them. It was a combination i do usual, anyone who wants to give you a straight answer and simple answer about how somebodys radicalized, i would advise you to be careful. There is a reason that they are doing that. The book says that ideological reasons, the personal experience in external factors that combine in the very unique moment, in 2001 its what he was at the time. A couple of questions presomeone asked why is he so prominent in his propaganda and a slightly different question in the media wing and fan boys. While so many other prominent alqaeda ideology have been condemned by isis, there has been a repeated and embrace of his brand that continues in isis media. Both related and very good questions but from people who know what theyre talking about. We have a sophisticated audience. There is a whole chapter about his influence. And one that plays a lot i give a lot of credit to him and i think its on that you written about. A couple things to keep in mind. Early baghdadi, when they said 0 six, was a controversy about this, alqaeda was not entirely sure and he really open in 0 six, he prays on the establishment of the islamic state. In one of the reasons he prays and. One because he said we finally have a great example of theory turning to practice, the taken idea and implementing it in setting in the islamic state, its such an important example and he no this is the First Step Towards the end of where this is happening, geographically, it is a sign that we had taken another major step for fulfilling the prophecy and at the end of the days happening in the part of the world. That may sound familiar to people who know about isis because thats one of the messages, their propolis to nature and the attraction of that. The attraction of saying that actually you cant just wait around anymore, if you want to be part of the jew hod movement, you cannot wait anymore, it is established, it is here you have to protect it and you have to be involved with the next phase in the train is leaving it, isis message of the component of their activism was very attractive because the added immediacy, you have to do it now, he identified that in 2006 and he said the very same thing that im saying, this is not an opportunity, if you die anytime soon in your asked what did you do and you did not take the chance to be part of the most important moment in the final battle between good and evil and a couple of others, not many, we saw the recruitment and that is important. And when it was found, when they started reaching out to westerners in english, one of the very first videos that they do is a voiceover given the 2006 speech in the establishment and the same thing that would make the exact thing he was very important in that way, hes one of the only he mentioned in a couple ways whether the law or not, they managed to keep them on board because they recognize this guy is so important to the western audience that we cant throw the baby out of the bus, hes too important in all the outreach that they give to westerners is very influenced by him and theres a concept that isis uses to attract and create an identity crisis with the muslims and they refer to the gray zone or the gray area and they say it was isis in the United States and they occupy the gray zone. And where they have not decided, they have not taken the side, theyre sitting on the fence, our job as a terrorist group is to force a decision on them, through active violence to shrink it and make it impossible to muslims to no longer make their minds up. More than anything else extremist want you to make your mind up, they dont care what is necessarily what side you choose, you just need to choose a side so we can get on and he was very much saying the stuff back then in the term gray zone which for those close made familiar. He said there is no gray area anymore, it is established, there is no gray area, we cannot occupy that anymore. Its the exact language, every component of the outreach. He actually echoes practically george w. Bush saying you are either with us or youre with the terrorist. That is essentially muslims are getting the same message from two sides, you have to pick sides. So we could go on for another two hours, but let me ask a couple of Big Questions to wrap up here. One would be a bunch of people have asked, essentially about successors, do you see anyone out there who is in the jihadist realm or the activist realm heading in the direction of jihad. Is this just a huge vacuum that he left or are there people stepping up to pull the vacuum . Thats a very common question i get, hard went to answer, i dont think you can replicate the story. As i said hes a product of all these things from the pre9 11 preaching to 9 11 itself, to the huge following he had before 9 11, you will not get a guy who is a Senior Member of one of the most important mosques in the west and the United States, to go from that to becoming ahead of alqaeda. That move is not probably going to happen again. Youre not going to be able to do it and build a huge base of mainstream muslim support and then moved to jihad is a and take that with you. That is very unlikely to happen again. Having said all that, there are people who have tried, a lot of members, they dont have anywhere near the charisma or the credibility, dont forget how lucky was considered a mainstream scholar, they dont have that and he comes up with a lot of isis cases, hes a u. S. Resident. He features not so much in the book but other things ive written on extremism in the report i wrote in america which covers and he is probably the closest prebut it was jihadist in the late 90s, he was a supporter of the early alqaeda operation before 9 11, its not he still has a narrow scope of support but i dont think there will be another alkali because you cant create the circumstances but you have people like drew brill who have the ability to take what they know about American Culture and psyche and fear and acknowledgment and use it to create a jihadist narrative. I will used the privilege to ask a question myself for the last one. And ive often asked, one without a quick answer but its interesting. In addition to becoming the leading spokesperson voice person for all qaeda in english, he had another historic distinction to become the first u. S. Citizen, deliberately hunted down and killed without criminal charges without a tri trial, potentially executed by the u. S. Government when obama put him on the kill list and eventually on september 30, 2011, they caught up with him in yemen and killed him and three other guys with the muscle. Was that a good idea or a bad idea. I should just reference by saying as i was writing about this, i saw his Youtube Video and tributes to him flourish and grow at a very rapid pace after his death and of course there were many, many attacks in the west after his death were the attackers specifically it turned out had been strongly influenced by him. So what is it a good idea to take them off the field as a terrorist, was it about idea to enhance his status . Alkali famously questioned about him and said our influence or our work is written in our blood and its what gave him extra strength and he had similar beliefs and that. The second attempt to kill him as well, i dont think i gear towards a good idea that i wasnt put in those terms. Firstly, obviously any assassination like that has to be taken very seriously and not be necessarily celebrated, its very important and its a decision that is not an easy one to make. I think that with his assassination, he had a couple of things alqaeda lost in what they lost was the fact that he was a magnet, in many cases you were talking about people who were looking at for the opportunity, you are looking for people looking for alkali, a number of other cases where they thought if i met alkali and speak to him, thats the next step and theres a case of British Airways employees undercover with alkali where they discuss in their talking and hes offering to help him. And what you realize, just an engagement with him was what made them fully decide i am ready to commit to this attack, he was a magnet for anyone who is interested, they took away the magnet and it didnt really ever get replaced. There is probably a lot of people who through the in the towel after that. So they lost the person who is a direct influence for people to go with a sympathizer to actual jihadist. Also when he was engaged with a lot of the time to inspire and is online speeches, he was able to constantly offer the jihadist sin or narrative on new events, these are very important that he provided western due hotties. The news is saying this about the 2008 financial products. The news is saying this about mohammed and the news is saying this about the arab spring. What is alqaedas take, what is the news take on this. And alkali was providing that. He was able to weave in the new usual narrative intake examples from new moments and make them relevant. They lost that to when he died. And so i think on that they lost more than they gain but we dont know of what it would be, but when he was alive he was a magnet for a lot of westerners who were looking for him specifically in order to commit attack. We know he was very important in the propaganda production. They lost that. In terms of what they gained, the opportunity to say you have murdered one of our most important preachers and they were able to stay as soon as you call people to islam you will get killed by the u. S. Government. In a not very convincing way they made it. That is the key to keep in mind, what they gained and lost, whether or not another thing to keep in mind he said everything he needed to say but the time he was killed. As far as justifying and making it relevant to westerners to an extent, everything he was saying in the years after before he died were the rehashing of stuff. He said but giving it a new spin on the stories of time. He said what he needed to say and in that sense maybe it was not a huge loss very hard to say i lean toward it had to happen, you had a guy who is actively involved, if you were to put on the table and say here is a file, there is a guy who is actively involved in multiple plots one of which is pure luck and stopped however, many hundreds of people dying on the plane. And you have a guy connected to this amount of other plots right now. The problem is, he lives in yemen where the government has no control. You cannot ask the police to arrest him, there is no military who will go do that, he is living in a lawless part of the world. At that point we have two options, we can go in and arrest him with a special forces team or we leave him with three options, resting with the special forces or kill him. And given how if you think about bin laden operation and a more important figure they tried to do a risky special forces operation that goes horrifically wrong in one of the two blackhawks went down, it crashed and the site couldve gone horribly wrong. There is a lot of risk when you have special forces sentence. They didnt later on in the administration ended up killing his young daughter one of the number of tragic stories around the alkali family. In a way of presenting strike unknown terrorist operated in the desert was actually maybe the lowest risk option there is also the legal question, the International Law question. Im sure theres International Lawyers who can tell me its an illegal act, probably tommys illegal act to because International Law can be presented in many ways. Thats a great answer. I think were going to get kicked off of zuma here in a minute. I will just say if used to have questions, it is not hard to find a George Washington on the program of extremism, you can find my email on my twitter page and this has been a real pleasure hosting, alex, as soon as you get off, order the book incitement on the western jihad. Such and thanks again gw for inviting me and thanks alex for giving us a terrific talk. Thank you mod so much scott,m on twitter, any questions or anything else feel free. Thank you. Bins watch for tb the summer every saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern settle in and watch several hours of your favorite authors, tonight we are featuring New York Times bestselling author david, author of a dozen books including once in a great city, a detroit story, barack obama, the story and his most recent Good American family. And watch next saturday as we future poets of prizewinning author and historian david macola, bins watch booktv all summer on cspan2. Added discussion at the Wilson Center in washington, d. C. , Georgetown University talked about the normalizing of cyber warfare as the geopolitical tool. Here is a portion of his talk. The way i like to phrase it in the freezer here a lot, the United States has the nicest rocks that we still live in a glossy house. When it comes to intricate i dont use this word lightly, american capabilities are truly extraordinary to talk about extraordinary intricate operation against the Iranian Nuclear program. But just because we can do that does not mean we can defend very well. We have a long tail over mobility that our adversaries have not been tried all about exploiting. No better example than that then the recent equitracs indictment from the department of justice were the chinese basically because they could pack the personal information of 140 million americans, probably on most everyone here, everyone has a card likely in this file maintained by equitrac. This is a case in which most americans dont know the companies exist and not getting the government protection, the companies are not defending the chinese adequately but its reams of information about Many American adults. In the chinese are more than happy to say we will take that, thats a glass house. To watch the rest of the Program Visit our website booktv. Org and search for ben buchanan or the title of his book, the hacker in the state using the search box at the top of the page. Heres a look at some books being published this week. Even though its releases being challenged, former National Security advisor and the trouble Administration John Bolton new book, the room where it happened is going to be available on tuesday. In five days and journalist erica green look at the protest in the wake of the death of freddie gray in april 2015. And he argues why donald trump must be reelected and also being published this week in jesus and john wayne history professor explores white evangelicals have champion president trump, katherine examines how the kt b help bring Waterman Putin to power and prudence people. Thank you for voting, reporter aaron geiger smith look inside the ins and out of voting in america. Look for her and upcoming sunday evening q a program on cspan. Find these titles this coming week wherever books are sold and watch for many of the authors in the near future on book tv on cspan2. Civics and townhall with the network foundation, the true grand foundation, katie w in the foundation. Was to be no townhall is fundamentally a member Supportive Organization i want to thank all of our members watching tonight. 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