Abruptly on the day after the elections in 2018, and the president appoint me that day to be acting attorney general and ultimately bridge the gap between Jeff Sessions sessions d bilobar. Host how did you become jeff session chef of staff. Were you friends. Yes. Taj how it had only met Jeff Sessions once before i was selected to be his chief of staff. He was i interviewed with him and talked to him many times, but it was mutual friend, both in the white house and at the federal society that had recommended me to him and his people, and we bonded quickly over College Football and our love for good barbecue. So it was match made in heaven. Host one of the things you say but mr. Sessions recusal from the Russian Investigation that it was personal and factdriven. Guest yeah. I wasnt there when he did the analysis. He took over in february of 2017, after he was confirmed, and after the new administration came in, but having done sort of my own recusal analysis that took five weeks for me and my staff and the department of justice to complete, it is very factdriven. It is very personal decision. Kind of how it is done, its methodical and i know that general sessions has been very outspoken he believes he did the right thing, and all i can i do and what i describe in this become is how it faked our work at the department of justice and how ultimately created kind of two Power Centers at the department of justice. The Attorney Generals Office and the deputy Attorney Generals Office who for the purposes purposes of the muller investigation was the acting attorney general so it was very difficult to operate in that environment, as you can imagine, but also when i was appointed acting attorney general, to validate that and return to regular order in a normal chain of command like the department is used to. Host and in your book, you write that every american, regardless of personal politics, should be concerned by what i saw happen to President Donald Trump inside the u. S. Department of justice, between 2017 and 2019. What did you see . Guest well, i saw so many things. What i prime marley saw was a department of justice that at its best was a force for good and for law and order and doing justice and at its worst was a department that when it didnt follow regular order was not properly predicating investigations, what glossing over sort of basic and fundamental practices of investigations. For example, when there was no evidence or counterevidence was developed, they continued to go down a path and investigate crimes that ultimately, as you saw in the Mueller Report, for example, were never established and never was any evidence that supported those investigations. So, again, i think one of the reason is wrote this book was to remind professionals at the department of department of justice, prosecutors and investigative agents, that we need to do we always do the right thing for the right reason and follow the timehonored practices that have put the department of justice in its place in society and have been unfortunately kind of hurt by these recent chapters that we saw the department of justice. By no means would i suggest in my become doesnt try to make the case that somehow this was all people and every investigation. Quite frankly, one of the rains wrote the book was to highlight the important work of the great men and women at the department of justice. 110,000 professionals and so many of them, almost all of them do things the right way without acclaim and make our country better because theyre involve in the criminal justice system. Host one of the recuring themes in your book above the law is this, quote what bothered me most were those members of the executive branch who put their own interests above those of the president. Can you give some examples of that . Guest yeah. Think one example, i thick is one were all pretty familiar with and that is how jim comey conducted the fbi, and how there were he and members of his senior staff were often times shaping stories in the media. A lot of evidence on the Public Record now of how leaks were made to correct stories that were inaccurate or representations another person, andy mccabe who leaked the story how he cop fronted the Deputy Attorney general in the Obama Administration regarding the an investigation. So, all that was all sourced from him through lisa page and i just i think theres those examples. Another example of where i really believe that one of the ways we get off the path at the department of justice and at the fbi was individuals putting themselves and their own reputation ahead of the interests of the executive branch, and the constitution when i say the interests of the executive branch issue mean the constitutional interest that makes our constitutional system so balanced and work on an everyday basis. Host do you believe that theres a deep state . Guest i would have to say i think there are those individuals within the permanent bureaucracy, career officials, that do not believe that in the president s agenda a lawful and ethical agenda and they resisted, mall r resisted the implex addition of that agenda. The know men clay tower of the deep state is for others to decide how to define it. I saw people that were not only working against the president s agenda as the head of the executive branch, but those that were unwilling to advance the president s agenda, and it is my point, what i say in the become is those people, theyve really believed they cannot accomplish or support the president s agent, thats as long as its lawful and ethical, they should run for president based on their world view, and i think the president s priorities that we saw at the department of justice were lawful and ethical and everyone in the executive branch, because of another thing i talk about in the book the unitary executive theory, everybody should pull in the same direction, and its i am surprised its controversial also it is but ultimately the American People through the Electoral College elect president s and those president s are entitled to implement their agenda. You describe the attitude of some of those people at doj, they view donald trump as a quoteunquote, dangerous interloper. Guest yeah. Think they viewed several of us in that way. They view us as out outsiders, those not of washington and of this i guess elite world, but this is the beauty of our system in the United States, is that people with good ideas can come to washington, dc, can win elections, and can try to advance those priorities and so i you can tell from the way i describe it, i believe so much in the system and i believe in america and not just sort of the elites that are in our major cities, like washington, dc and new york and other places, but all of us. Were all a part of it. I think one thing that donald trump did, which surprised a lot of people, he gave voice to of people that forget forgotten, people from places like where im from, des moines, iowa, where its flyover country. You believe that the coastal elites dont understand why you value your way of life, why you like having a grill in your backyard and like having sort of an above ground pool and all the kind of things and target shooting, those kind of things we celebrate and do in places like iowa where im from. Host mr. Whittaker were you prepared for the media when you came into the acting ag position . Guest yeah. I im in the sure i could have ever expected the attention and the suddenness with which i was thrust on the National Stage. I was ready for the job. I had done 13 months of chief of staff to the attorney general. I knew how the department of justice operated. Had relationship with everybody in the executive branch, and other places. Ive been a u. S. Attorney for five and a half years in the Southern District of iowa so i knew the department of justice very well, its mission and its people. But the media was even though aid been a contributor on cnn and thought that i knew how the media covered stories i was not ready for the amount of not only reporters following me stories but just their insatiable desire for new angles, new breaking news, and just how bitterly partisan it had become, and i do continue to believe that the mission of the department of justice is not political. Its to do justice in every case, and but at the same time i would have to say i was surprised by the media spotlight that was befell me when i became acting attorney general. Host operationally, when the attorney general recused himself from the Russian Investigation, how does that work in doj and how were you kept up to date on developments . Guest well, i wasnt. Once i became chief of staff to attorney general sessions, the whole office of attorney general, its called, oag, was recused as well so when i became chief of staff all i knew about the russia investigation is what i saw on tv and every night after work i would be subjected to if i wanted to if i cared to watch the news. So i didnt learn anything about the actual investigation until after i became acting attorney general. Host and when you became acting, were you briefed into the whole investigation at that point by rod rosenstein. Guest i was, and others. But it was not immediate. This is one thing i think we all need to appreciate about the moment in time, is i was smart enough to know that it if i wanted it to it could dominate my every waking moment and i knew there was so much more work we were doing. Obviously the highest profile work we were doing and so much other work. So i brought to a u. S. Attorney from the Eastern District of california, greg scott, just a great individual with a ton of experience, not only as elected county d. A. And twotime District Attorney with the Bush Administration and he returned in this administration to do it again because he enjoyed it so much. The perfect person to come in, and i put him in sort of my eyes and ears and made him responsible on my behalf to manage and to interact with the mueller team. I knew i i could not for various reason us because i didnt want to put that amount of time in attention with Everything Else we had to do and the priorities we had, i needed help and i brought him in to help. Host what is your impression of and interactions with rod rosenstein. Guest ive known the former Deputy Attorney general since 20042005 time frame when he came in as u. S. Attorneys. So ive known him for over a decade. And he has spent he had spent 30 years the department of justice, he has an impressive resume and an impressive educational background and a lot of experience inside of the department of justice and i describe in this book my impressions on him. I think the American People saw him again on National Stage in the hearings last week, and i think he is i dont think theres any doubt that he would say he was doing the belles he could in the best he could i in a difficult circumstance. I have a lot of questions for him especially the decisions he made along the way before i was ever at the department of justice. Host what is the period on this whole thing . Now, judge sullivan has john gleeson investigating the department of justices view on this. When does it end . Guest thats a great question. I think when it ends is when we really have full accounting of this period of time, and i as i watch sort of the various pieces and parts, whether its the Mueller Investigation, the Senate Issuing new subpoenas to get to the bottom of it, i think everywhere i go and travel, the first thing folks ask me is, when will anybody be held accountable for this . There are obviously so much of life depends on whether youre cheering for the red team or the blue team. Thats very unfortunate. One thing i try to do is step become and say, if youre a law and order fairmind supporter of justice then you want certain answers to these questions so we can learn the lessons. I think general barr was talking about that earlier this week, how to some extent the job of the attorney general is to figure out what happened and make sure it doesnt happen again. So, i think i dont certainly this will be around through the summer. I think john durhams report is going to be very important. What Lindsey Graham is doing in the senate and the Senate Judiciary committee will be very important. Everybody has to come to their own conclusions unfortunately because fairness and objectivity seems to have left our society sometime around 2016. Host devin nunes wrote the ford. Guest he pointed out a very important fact that i knew at the moment i was appointed but im not sure i articulated as well also he did and that is that i found myself in this obstruction of justice trap that was set because really if you look at every moment in time, whether it was in january of 2017, when the mueller before the Mueller Investigation even happened, when it was crossfire hurricane there was no evidence of the collusion theory. You look at sort of the texts between the fbi agent and lawyer, they suggested there was in big there there was the text. You look at the Mueller Investigation itself and did not find any relationship between anyone from the Trump Campaign and the russian government. So i think what we found ourselves in, including myself, was this obstruction of justice trap that was set looking for anyone to interfere with the sort of conduct of the investigation, what became the Mueller Investigation, and i sensed that. Im not sure i articulated it but i sensed that was as soon as i get briefed the first time like we talked but. Host mr. Jewish what rules the independent counsel as opposed to the special counsel. Guest the independent counsel statute to spired in 199 and that was ken starr was appointed under. That was a statue that had oversight of judges and separate and distinct from at the department of justice and didnt really have a role for the executive branch. I think a lot of people saw what happened to bill clinton in the white water investigation and i think it was almost bipartisan agreement that we dont need that to happen again the way it happened, and so in an attempt to not have the repeat of that, of the ken starr investigation, the department of justice passed a regulation that called the special counsel regulation and that governs what bob mueller was appointed, Pat Fitzgerald in the scooter libey prosecution was appointed under the statute, i believe, and it has been used from time to time where the independence of the department of justice and the conditions of the executive branch is could be put into question, and it is a little very discretionary as to when it can be implemented but it puts protections, especially in the firing of the special counsel, makes it sort of be for cause instead of just at the will of the discretion of the department of justice and ultimately the president. It is something that again i think is as i outline in the book is unconstitutional and should be eliminated or dramatically reformed and i set out a couple of weighed that could happen. I think a couple of ways that could happen. We have 93 u. S. Attorneys in the United States that all do their jobs every day with great discretion and great judgment, and i think often times as you see both general sessions and general barr do is appointing these u. S. Attorneys not only to continue to do their own job but to do discrete functions when the department of justice, a tried and true way to ultimately make sure that theres inhilation in these investigations and also make sure they continue to report to and be part of the executive branch ishould have asked you before we started the interview but as the acting attorney general do you get the title of general whit kerr as well. Guest people give that to me. I dont know if its something how receive but i have ive been called matt, matthew, hey you and also been called general, so it was an honor of a lifetime to serve in this administration and serve as acting attorney general. One thing i dont get is a painting in the department of justice. So thats that is certainly something that doesnt come with the office. Host okay. Was Robert Mueller well utilized . Guest i really think that what happened one soldier i talk about in the book with bob mueller his he all saw with our own eyes him testify and i think there were a lot of hopes and dream put into his testimony, that would turn this sort of 400 plus page report into television event, bring to life and make a movie out of the book, and obviously we saw that he did not seem to have command of a lot of his investigation. Ive never i know that when i said in front of the house judiciary hearing and said ill are take you question and wait for another question pop saying that statement most people would have been baffled like a lot of us were in watching Robert Mueller testify. I think ultimately he he is a leader decorated vietnam veteran, marine, and obviously served more than ten years in the fbi as its director. He is a u. S. Attorney, has been he has done everything you can do at the department of justice, with the distinction. Would add. I said a lot of positive things when bob mueller was appointed as special counsel and i still believe that today but i think he was taken advantage of by his staff. I think that product that is the Mueller Report is not a product he wrote. Think its written by people that wanted to score political points and its too bad and its something i criticized in my book, and i think could have been done a different way. Unnecessary under the regulation, and it seemed gratuitous in hindsight. Host what did you learn about doj oversight of the fbi . Guest i used to say when i was the United States attorney, before i ever came to washington, dc, that the fbi was nominally part of the department of justice and i think one of the things that everyone needed to make sure we do and continue to do is to have the fbi director follow the proper reporting mechanisms because it is not an independent branch of the executive branch or the department of justice and there is a chain of command. I think there is i think especially jim comey i dont talk but is in book die think jim comey really tried to make the fbi independent from the executive branch and the department of justice and i think it was a really attention. You can see really a tension. You can see hat in anonymous report andsster that came our during the Obama Administration, how jim was run his own play and fame i mousily manifest in the kind of what he different with Hillary Clintons case, where he did not follow regular order and he announced really kind of what the kind of a declination we ever never explain the evidence we found and characterize the but he said what he did in the the Hillary Clinton email situation,ing much to the surprise and disappointment of his bosses, both the Deputy Attorney general and the attorney general in the Obama Administration. So i think thats one kind of very public way that i think his push to make the fbi more independent from the department of justice and the executive branch was a complete and utter disaster. Host one of the things you cite in your become is the fact that former attorney general eric holder had called himself president obamas wing man and that it is important to have an attorney general you can rely on. Is that correct . Guest yeah. I think theres a lot more to that. I think the interesting thing, as i look at the criticism when when holder said that there was the media and in addition to the way we have always treated the jfkrfk relationship was the of colors the president should have an attorney general he had complete confidence in. That not going to kind of run their own plays or do things outside of the chain of command. And i think that when the shoe is on the other foot and bill barr is viewed as doing things supportive of the president , which i think bilobar is just literally doing bilobar is can do the work of the attorney general but when the criticism comes it is always seems to be only attorney generals that are republicans and for republican torontos all attorney generals need to follow the law and do things consistent with the law, and the polls of the department of policies of the department of justice. Continue to be surprise thats general holder called himself president obamas wing man but at the same time, i you can i think that the president needs to have absolute confidence in his attorney general. Host and in you book you write but general holder and say that, quote, i would argue that holders above the law moral grandstands is largely responsible are in the socalled ferguson effect where 72 of Police Officers more reluctant to stop and question suspicious people than they were the 2014 according to pew research. Guest yeah. I really i do place a lot of the responsibility of what happened in policingespecially in our major cities, after ferguson, and other situations as to kind of a pullback of the police, i think jim comey termed the ferguson effect. It is were seeing sort of some of this manifest now in our major cities, and i think its an overall conversation that continues to be had as to how do the Police Protect and serve the communities and at the same time have the confidence of those communities, and i think some of these voices that im hearing has made me kind of think about my experience at the department of justice, as are for five and a half years as a just attorney i worked closely with state and local Police Witness but the general ashcroft said it best that welldone policing enhances liberty and actually enhands fro dom and so that is where we need to get to. We need to get to the model and find a way that policing in every major city and in every kind of small town places where im from, is don the right way so that the is doesnt the right way show to community has confidence. Who is first and most and the data show who is hurt the most when the police pull back is the minority communities and thats the challenge and he to discussion were all having and will continue to have. Host President Trump called for an expedited investigation of what happened in minneapolis to mr. Floyd. What exactly is he attorney generals role when Something Like that happens. Guest the attorney general through the Civil Rights Division at the department of justice obviously has big role when it comes to excessive use of force and a place the department of justice has found itself many times in reviewing Police Conduct and the civil rights on an individual has been violated and doing pattern and practice, review of training and those types of things. Not only in addition to what happened to golfed, george floyd and is inconsistent with all know and we need to get to the bottom of it and make sure that situations like this never happen again but the department of justice can through its funding mechanism, can fund Police Training and studies and all this kind of thing, the data we need to address some of these situations, but we in case like this we would do an investigation with the state, who is handling this now through their attorney general, and share information and make sure that everyone has the same set of facts and then have a conversation as to what our best handle the case. I neat its been reported that the main officer who had his knee on the neck of george floyd, in the horrific video that is very difficult to watch, that he had allegedly had a blow agreement with both the a plea agreement with the state and fedful is there there are dual sovereigns in this case and you can see state and federal cases out of this back to your book the president ial policy close toast my heart was showing support for local Law Enforcement who were suffering a major crisis of morale after a eight years of being thrown under the bus by the Obama Administration. Can you explained expound on that. Guest wherever we went really manifested every time we went outside of washington, dc and talked to local police and sheriffs, and their deputies and their officers, is we would say, we have change the tone from washington, dc, when youre not going to paint with a broadbrush, not going to blame every playing depth nor failings of Police Department for the fail little of a fie offers what doing their job consistent with the law and policy and practice. I think the goal always should be and always has to be that every child, no matter the neighborhood, should be able to good play in the front yard and i think we did have have made advance in reducing Violent Crime in our maternal cities. One thing that is lost in the whole discussion of what happened to george floyd, is that our communities were increasingly safer, again because of good policing. Primarily by local Police Departments and sheriffs departments, and so again i think that we can always get better. I its what i wrote piece last week, i think we can always get better and learn from these horrific situations like george floyd and the police can improve training, improve their practices, but i cant find anywhere in any training or any manual where what happened to george floyd was recommended or trained. That seems to me to be a real thats what i think we need to learn is how do things like this happen . How do we have i think in 2019 we had nine or ten blacks that died unarmed at the hands of the police, and i think we need to get down to the bottom of that, and roll up our sleeves and come up with a solution as to how to better train officers and better high officers and how to when you have a problem with an officer, how to better make sure they dont have a badge and a gun and sort of the authority of under the color of law. One of these incidents, even though we only had a handful, nine or ten last year, one of these incidents is too many and so this is where we get to continue, have this discussion, to make sure its factbased, the data supports whatever were implementing, and go from there i think this is where the federal government has such a powerful voice in the department of justice, a powerful visit and why bill barr is so important for this discussion that were having nationwide. Host so, amid the defund the Police Movements and the critiques of Police Unions issue think it was a camden, new jersey, that started the police force afresh. Is that an approach you would support . Guest this is the thing. Theres so many Police Departments, thousands of Police Departments and each one is unique. For example, the one in hi home town in iowa, which is a town of 50,000 people, that has its own Police Department, theres no reason to start fresh there. But at the same time, again, this is where i think that the political leaders are failing their people by throwing their hand up in the care and not being able to come of with solutions to these problems. I look at minneapolis, which has had obviously one party rule i lived to for five years and i know minneapolis well theyre had one party rule, the city council and the mayor, theyve had a chance the reform begins there. Theres not the only i think the only Police Department im aware of that doesnt have sort of political responsibility to the city loaders is in kansas city where the state appoints the police commission. Because of bad all sorts of political corruption challenges in the 30s that they needed a different kind of reform, but i think each city through its Political Leadership, needs to come up with the necessary and appropriate reformed but its the Political Leadership and those politics are responsible to the voters and thats how lost in this whole discussion is the people of minneapolis need to demand accountability and change, and if these if the mayor and city council are unwilling to do that anyway teed to find a new mayor and city council and that needs to happen in every community, every city and every town. Host to go back to where we started, did you see evidence of russian interference in the 2016 election and was there concern about the 2020 election as well . Guest yeah. This is im so glad you asked this question. This is where this format gives me a great opportunity to say two things. Separate collusion and interference. 2016 theres no doubt that the russian, the chinese, the iranians, North Koreans and others, tried to affect, influence, our election. Same thing in 2018, quite frankly, while he was at the department of justice. Fully expect the same in 2020. The American People need to be sophisticated they get the information and make sure its wellvetted and he made outlooks like rt, which is russia today, financed be the russian government, file a Foreign Agent registration agent. Did i see any evidence of collusion sniff did not and i think the Mueller Report points out that there was no collusion but did the russians and others try to interfere or affect or election . Absolutely. I did not see where one single vote was changed based on that. Host former acting attorney general matthew whitaker, above the law, the inside story off the Justice Department trial to subvert President Trump. We appreciate your being on guest on booktv. Guest my honor. Thank you so much. Here are current best, sell nonfiction books accord to go wednesday wont. Topping the gonzales is the memory, untamed, follow the splendid and the vile. After that, america muss chaos to be antiracist and work toward billing a more Equitable Society in how to be an antiracist. Then in between the world and me, na to connecticuts, the state of black america and wrapping up is me and White Supremacy by good ancestor podcast host and addresses White Supremacy and racial injustice. You can watch these authors online at booktv. Org. Heres some public publishing interest from. Mary trump is planning to publish a book in august that is critical of the president. The book, too much and never enough, is reported to reveal that miss trump was the primary source for the New York Times investigation into President Trumps financials in 2018. And in other news the New York Times reports on a movement by authors and Publishing Industry employees to address pay inequality based on race in the book industry. The publishing paid me ban trending after young doubt author r. R. Mckennie asked authors to announce the book advance or money provided were arrivals to show she did sparesies between what black and nonblack awe authorized revved. Keeting eat tweet shed raved 100,000 advance and said i know for a fact that writers of color who sell more books than i do have gotten less of an investment up front. Last week over 1,300 Publishing Industry employees culled out of work to express solidarity with the protest against police brutality. Those who participated were encouraged to use the day to support the black community and donate a day residents pay to social justice organizations. Also in the news, according to npd become scan, print book sales were up 7 for the week ending june of. Adult nonfiction sales dipped 2 and are down 7 for the year. And Publishers Weekly recently reached out to over 25 independent book stores to inquire about their reopening plans and report the major majority of the stores are is hadnt to allow in store customer decide to concern about the safety of employees and their ability to fill online orders. You can watch our archived programs anytime at booktv. Org. Tonight on booktv in primetime, its our weekly summer series featuring several programs from our archives with your favorite authored such as david mccullough, christopher hitchens, attorneyie morrison and others. Tonight a look at the many evens Award Winning biographer and journalist, david marry david maraniss. Hi, everyone. Im the ceo of sixth and i. A Nonprofit Center for Arts Entertainment and ideas and a synagogue that reimagines how religion and community can enhance peoples everyday lives. Imbeded in the dna of our organization is a commitment to dialogue arent the most Critical Issues of our time. Were gettered virtually at a time when so much feels uncertain. But over the past two weeks, it has become abundantly clear there is no more uen