Minutes. Welcome to our continuing conversation about the big social media platform in response to the disinformation campaigns around the covid19 pandemic, very serious situation where lives are literally in the balance. Im the director of the George WashingtonUniversity School of Public Affairs affiliated with the institute of data and democracy and politics which is presenting this event together with the International Committee on this information. Ill be your moderator and your timekeeper and i will continue this conversation with her distinguished panel and guest. If you are journalist, please feel free to put your question into the q a field, make sure that is addressed to everybody so we can see that and i will try to incorporate some of the questions to our panel in a bit. Social media platforms as we know and discussed our allowing actors to sell on illegal and overpriced medical equipment during the pandemic. That is one of many issues that we see across a social media platform. This one is not a new problem, social media platforms continue to allow the dangerous disinformation during the covid19 pandemic and in so doing they expose how dangerous and how irresponsible this kind of behavior can be and the role that they play in continuing to allow it. Rampant conspiracy theories make the situation worse, confusing people, distracting people, social media platforms have the technological knowhow in the sources to fix it but they have little intent and incentive to do so. We have a distinguished panel to discuss these problems, people on the frontline who are dealing with these issues directly and legislators who are trained to do something about it from two countries. First a look at the issues in the states to launch the conversation. Advertise on facebook by Fake Companies how the masks can filter out 99 of harmful particles, heres what you pay for and heres what you get. Im a foster father out of Williamson County who have no place to live. We knew we needed masks because we are responsible for overseeing these children, the health and welfare of these children. We were warned about coronavirus scams. I noticed an ad for a mask on facebook and i saw facebook as a legitimate company, i ordered on april 3 and i got the confirmation that they were received my payment. Scams are on the rise for increasing need for protective supplies. After my initial auto reply to facebook, they went silent, i got nothing from them. I absolutely have thought about the fact that without these masks coming that input these children and their families in our organization at higher risk. U. S. Lawmakers who are joining us are charged with Consumer Protection. [inaudible] my apologies for the technological glitches that we have tried to connect the world. We are learning, this is a learning process so your intelligence is very appreciated. Let me try this again, we have two leading u. S. Lawmakers that are charged with Consumer Protection the United States congress, another from canada a leader in the International Green committee. Senator Richard Blumenthal joins us, his advocacy for crewmen sumer rights traces back to decades and let me just say senator blumenthal coming from connecticut, integrate pleasure and advocacy for Consumer Rights more than two decades as the state attorney general in his work on the senate on the condition or a committee. A recognized leader in the senate on the democratic caucus. Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky from the great state of illinois she shares the Consumer Protection subcommittee, the house energy and Commerce Committee and serves as a Senior Deputy in the house leadership as well. Thank you for joining us. Were joined by nathaniel, canadian member of parliament from the liberal party, he sits on the Standing Committee on industry science and technology, hes been demanding more from action for some time, i will ask her lawmakers if you bear with me and allow me the timekeeper role as a turn to our witnesses, people who are experiencing this information first hand. Randy smith is a mentor in round rock texas after corporate career and he followed to become a house parent as you saw in the video and foster home, hes a Community Leader that we would all like to have, thinking we celebrate you and appreciate everything youre doing. Doctor sandra is a professor at the Mount Sinai School of medicine and john hopkin for security and bio security, shes a Clinical Emergency Department treating patients in the mount sinai covid19 best practices committee. Lets get a sense of whats going on with you out there in the world and bring mentor elected representatives before the conversation. Randy smith lets start with you ensure your story we saw you in the video expressing your experiences and frustration and the stakes of whats is about. When the pandemic happened we became concerned about her ability to serve and support the teams that were in our program. We immediately started looking at the need of other teams in the logistics of complying with the social distancing guideline, we knew we would need to perform well but what we quickly realized we will be responsible for supplying food and other supplies to many families. When i found the masks i found some on amazon but they were only the desk max, the local stores were out so i followed a link that was advertise on facebook, knowing facebook is a legitimate company i assumed they only allow legitimate it advertisers i purchased the masks through facebook, shortly later i received an inaccurate order confirmation which let me know something was wrong in looking into the iphone to Facebook Group with a thousand members most of whom who ordered from there and hundreds had posted information regarding the dispute on facebook and paypal but it was very difficult to find anyone posting resolutions to those concerns. It was not just facemasks, hunters had ordered robotic vacuums, drones and have become victims of scams, it was apparent that facebook had been aware of this for several weeks, there was no secrets people getting ripped off and i would imagine every one person that reported there mightve been hundreds and did not speak up or say anything, i looked at it if i walk into home depot, they were responsibility to make sure i received what i was sold and also regulated to protect my electronic funds, the platform selling online needs to be held at a higher standard. The fact is there often representing a company that is not historic, there is a seller they may not that may be based outside the United States and consumers are powerless and we cannot walk in and speak to the counter. Its easier to get ripped off. Allowing the fraudulent practice to continue will only cause consumers to be more cautious about buying online and that will be a big expense, the smaller Reputable Companies that rely on that to promote and sell their products, and the grand scheme 200 may not seemed like a lot of money but regardless the amount it is another persons precious dollars and someone like me or a Nonprofit Organization who serves at the health risk youth on essential donated dollars, every dollar is absolutely vital. Let me say a couple things, you say 200 is not very much, multiply that by 100, thousand million youre talking serious dollars and major major fraud cast over a lot of people, your story is known and got told partly because of the incredible work that Craig Sullivan from buzz feed did along with her institute due to democracy and politics and are calling trevor davis as we look into some of these proliferation of social media and email, a billion emails wrapped around these things that they found, they found your story and i think what is so important of exposing these things, thank you for sharing your story with them so it can be reported and thank you for sharing your story with us right now. We will come back. Doctor, i want to turn over to you or your perspective. Thank you, as an emergency physician in new york city i managed more than 100 cases of covid19. But i lost count of how many people were exposed, not to the virus itself but medical misinformation about the virus on social media. It is hurting my patients, one of my first cases at the beginning of march was an elderly woman brought in by her adult son, she hugged fever and her heart rate was high and her oxygen was very low and when i told her son the news he did not believe me. He did not believe the virus existed. He showed me a facebook and there was a post that said Something Like covid19 is a hoax made up by drug companies, that same week another patient was brought in by her daughter, same symptoms, same diagnosis, but her daughter insisted to me that there was no way her mother could have the virus because she read on facebook that covid19 was presented by antibiotics, so she went to her neighborhood and got pills and she was taking those everyday, theres no way her mother could have covid19. I have had so many of these conversations since a beginning of the outbreak and after everything weve been through over the past few months, i am still having these conversations, most recently on my shifts just last week, when i account for patients and their families about the facts of covid19, they are understandably confused and scared because they already were exposed to so much conflicting information they dont know what is real and what is not. In the common reaction is for members to get angry and hat makes it how its possible for the patient to have covid19 and theyll say my mother never left the house, shes not been in contact with anyone except for the grandkids and were all healthy. At first they dont make the connection even though they themselves are healthy and have no symptoms. They could still have the virus and pass it on. Eventually after we talk is starts to sink in and one of the things ill never forget is the look on someones face when all of a sudden they realize that likely have the virus and likely passed on to the loved ones. Ive seen that look so many times and its something ill remember for the rest of my life, i have been told the waiter counter medical this information social media so fast, i cannot keep up in the middle of a pandemic, its not enough time, were fighting to keep her patients alive on the front line. We should not be fighting with more information at the same time, it is not possible. We are trained to handle mass casualty but not this. Thank you for listening. Thank you very much and not only are you not trained for this, you should not have to spend you should spend your time treating patients, not this information. I want to ask you one question, the stories that you tell are really disturbing and very shocking of patients who think the thinking get a pill or take a pill or in me and permit and the other examples that you gi give. This is not scientific, this is antidotal that im asking. Are these rare cases or are these coming from 10 , 20 , give us a sense from your lived experience, how prevalent is this misinformation a disinformation of what you hear from patients. I would soothe great confidence that overwhelm majority just to give you a sense of this, at the beginning of outbreak some of the people who were actually looking at this information and questioning it were actual doctors. One thing i do at mount sinai is look at the literature and make sure will follow best practices. You dont understand what it was like in the beginning in february and the beginning of march because we do not have enough information and so i hate to say it, i had colleagues of mine that could fall for the hoax on facebook and i think now its much more clear, and for having people from the medical community who were able to necessarily identify all information. What can we expect from patients, i dont know how its possible to put that on people to know how to discount information and make decisions based on the health on own good information. Thank you, doctor stokes. Senator blumenthal may turn to you. You had taken on Health Insurance industry, big tobacco, you have an outspoken advocate for Consumer Rights, in this case consumers as we hear from doctor stokes have huge amount about information across the social media platform, the scammers that are selling useless pills like this leaving people to think that they are immune in the Conspiracy Theory that drives people in different directions, i want to turn over to you and you can respond to what you heard from randy smith and doctor stokes. Thank you for joining us. Let me repeat my thanks even more enthusiastically. For those who have described so compellingly some of the real harm from done this information into my colleagues , thank you for being such a steadfast and energetic warrior on behalf of consumers so these stories from the real world i am outraged that when you hear 200 here 200 they are talking about real money and the classaction involving a lot less than the 200 per person but what is so compelling to human life and safety so this can be a big boon also and too often they are complicit to aid and a bed the spread of deceptive and misleading ads and i will give you one or two examples that crossed the line out of band on out of bounds we are writing a letter today with the effort that it should be taking action around the stimulus payments being issued by the federal government all too often in our we are discovering is that people that go to google encounter malware and fraudulent schemes and referrals that google does or should know and we are asking the ftc to take action not only with the advertisers and the con artist but also against google because it has taken action against advertisers to engage to enable for us to reach ordinary people we are asking the ftc to take action you mentioned exposing this fraud exposing them is very important that that is the ftc and the fcc all of thes agencies have a real responsibility affecting peoples lives. Absolutely astonishing by the way things that were doing today as a result of the transparency project but likewise 46 separate false peers. Dietary supplements, chemicals and there are no proven therapeutic treatments. And just to be clear, these cures are being promoted and represented as cures and the platforms are as saying nothing to pull them down and expose them . They did nothing on their own. Now they are down so to the key point the platforms are scaling and of course the ftc is limited but also in the past so we are going to the Largest Online marketplaces and ask them those are not are effective but potentially dangerous to people and then to encounter a lot of people saying it was the end 95 mask so you can go from pricefixing price gouging also this meets on misleading ads and pictures, all of them with the platform. Let me turn to you for a couple of minutes. You coauthored this letter what exactly are you to calling to be done . And as we are here now we are focusing on scams, fraud, ripping people off in the name of covid19 safety or health or cures. Tell us more about this letter and where this needs to go. Congressman you are muted. There are a number of tools that we can use the ftc really does have the authority not only the fraudulent adds to be taken down but at the ftc could use and at this point we are calling on google to take responsibility. This issue of the immunity of the platform is a dangerous situation. I along with senator blumenthal look at facebook because they are allowing the sale of these inclined sleepers that have killed 100 children already and the Consumer ProductSafety Commission says they should not be sold that they are selling them on their shop. I also want to think the people that are looking for information so they go to the internet and if they just look up who is selling the fraudulent items including the masks and then we have a terrible story it is because there may be some that are legitimate in some way have no way of knowing the differences if there is not a regulation i am very concerned about making sure that we act and the big of unity of thes platforms because of section 230 because of the communication decency act that they are just toasting and they have no responsibility whatsoever that i think that is something we clearly have to change and we have seen the democrats the energy and Commerce Commission they have sent a letter to say section 230 should not be included and Foreign Trade agreements and you heard a member of parliament and Speaker Pelosi was right about that. This is the plan a big tech that they wanted to protect themselves all over the world. I have heard them say in congressional testimony and elsewhere we want to be responsible. We will deny way you have said and they are just putting out whatever and they dont care about it or not interested in doing anything. One of the things the study of ppe that google was not even and living up to its own Community Standards. But we have hired people to make sure and these are popping up all the time so we are not liable we are just toasting we have nothing to do with that. Yes we have heard facebook i think apologize ten times for things during the years that they have done that has hurt consumers to put patients at risk for now its time to act definitively for those lines that cannot be crossed to require the ftc enforce thes lines to make sure they are acting appropriately and as you have said lifeanddeath that we are talking about. And to bring in a member of parliament and different considerations but what people are very outspoken about but not a different problem solidity are your perspective and then we will open it up and we will bring them back in. We have the same problem and we need to reflect that reality and with that information we need to have International Solutions but there are over ten countries to identify the problem and the solutions with those social media platforms and available to take action. You are not saying theyre not taking enough action your same age failed to take action. Thats right. For a while now we have been talking with those a station on associated whether it is over collection and then to take sufficient action and with that privacy and Data Protection laws and i need to have read the contract but if i put a nap on the phone with that privacy Data Protection for consumers but we need social media platforms to take responsibility for that content and one year ago all on Public Record to take responsibility that each company said yes. And we look at advertising i think we have registries of advertising and that is a registry for greater accountability that where facebook knows a number of people they know the profits that they are seeing. And then that responsibility for content and then to be replaced by algorithms is not a question of security they are actively promoting content. And with those ads appearing in london we take it down but if it crosses the line maybe we shouldnt promoted. Of course they should and promoted and then you see the consequences of this crisis where they need to take action. Can i come back to you for a moment maybe you can share your experience at the Campaign Going on for quite some time. I think the parallels are unending but we see how the it has consequences all over the world working in Global Health in the republic of congo they have three outbreaks of ebola, covid19 and a third. We get there is a vaccine with one of them but here we are we are still battling and we are looking at how the this trust Healthcare Providers to people that are already vulnerable and blocking access to care this isnt just to the patients but to the providers people may not know this but pretty much since the start of the recent outbreak of the bola there have been 400 attacks specifically targeting providers that is linked say they are trying to give the bola to women and children and the vaccine are poisonous you dont have to have theoretical conversations you can measure this. Thats a great place to come back to senator blumenthal so lets make that distinction between scammers if you sell the pills and get healthy and conspiracy theories that drive distrust and have attacks like this. How does the media platform themselves distinguish these are Different Things right . The big umbrella of misinformation its Bad Information that driving the Conspiracy Theory that is meant to so suspicion to promote violence is in a different place and we think about the vaccine coming down the line that will be huge when it comes around. Because of the fake cure and with those conspiracy theories but to answer your question the platforms fail to oversee or scrutinize any of them they have very weak methods. Some of them are automated. We review them and do our Due Diligence we oversee them you can depend on us but whether a Conspiracy Theory or a false cure but you falsely tell people they are scrutinizing the ads that appear on their platform. That is why the ftc can and must take action false claims leading and deceptive whether Conspiracy Theory or false cure the heartbreaking horrendous result have real life attacks on people across the country and around the globe and here is the deer the little secret and you know this they have these really powerful machines. Not like a billboard on the highway they can target individuals and they sell this capacity to the highest bidder in affected is selling. If anybody has ever seen shopping for tires and now tires start to show up all over we are micro targeted with every piece of information we have had. We try to illustrate this Conspiracy Theory so lets roll that quickly and pick this back up and i will start with you congressman when we come out of the video. There is a Conspiracy Theory. Lighting cell phone towers on fire. The vehicle next he was screaming and shouting that i dont have any morals they will kill my children and they will be ashamed of me and kill everyone and then the next thing the guy gets out of his vehicle incomes try to open my passenger side door there was clear physical violence and threat he was making its crazy because i have seen so much on social media. And that can be quite dangerous. Congresswoman and your reaction including the conspiracy theories that go way beyond doubt. You can see how we can promote violence and uprisings and absolutely these platforms can be deadly one of the apologies facebook made was to allow the promotion of the genocide that took place when they finally did shut down the website. So we have to understand how our lives have been changed for the better there is so much out there but we have to acknowledge that we are not powerless. In the platforms themselves they have Community Standards. They say they follow them. If they are forced to follow their Community Standards and the enforcement agencies would get to work if we would reform the law that they say gives them immunity, when the facebook representatives spoke before our Community Talking about standards they have over 200 billion individuals that participate in facebook its bigger than any other country in the world. Mark zuckerberg lives in california while in washington to say advertising we are allowed to advertise anything. That is not our responsibility and we will double down even on political advertising but it doesnt have to be truthful. We have a lot to worry about especially talking about the elections coming up to make sure there is truth online. Looking at the conspiracy theories that are out there, there, what do your best practices suggest that can be done to hold these platforms accountable . Looking at those algorithms and with that recommendation function and then in the canadian context to use those algorithms with impacts to have a series of questions and the input and the output and the number of those actions to say when we have that information that can cause great harm to take responsibility and prospering for content they promote. And i have heard very intelligent ideas on social media. And then to ensure the online environment for all of us. Do we have a social Media Standards counsel in this country . I think we could well. What would they sit in judgment on . Here is a potential model it is included in a legislative proposal that i have made bipartisan the chairman of the Judiciary Committee he is a republican from south carolina. He and i have proposed a measure that essentially tackles the problem of Human Trafficking done on the platform in the first section 230 is a barrier to the traffickers. So what we said is we will establish a panel from the potentially interested parties and say you have to comply with certain standards with the terms of service as what is acceptable behavior and then you assert the section 230 protection this proposal is very narrow and considered a targeted measure that dates from the time the internet Tech Companies and more powerful than many small countries. So that kind of standard may be difficult to implement but it is possible what i think is for the platform when i began this effort against pornography on the platform they said we really cant do any of the screening, and we dont have technology, the algorithm, we can have people search and low and behold when they were given the incentive where as a potential lawsuit low and behold they discovered ways to police themselves. I think that same type of self policing and internal responsibility is part of the solution you mentioned earlier and i think legislation ultimately may be the answer for those that target that misinformation. Let me give you an opportunity to speak to these very distinguished lawmakers you experience this incredible scan these problems that weve now learned about you are trying to do great things in the world continuing your experience online with the platforms and see these young people you are trying to guide and shape and help, what would you say to the lawmakers and senator blumenthal from your perspective dealing on the front lines what you need from the platforms . Certainly senator blumenthal will go about targeted advertising and the biggest problem i see what the platforms are doing is redirect. Not only redirecting consumers from True Solutions but bringing false solutions that dont solve anything. That is a large segment of the population and those that we serve because many are lower income because they rely on the fact that it will happen. I would ask that we look at this that it is redirecting from Real Solutions and the fact check the point of being truthful that you can post something and within an hour it says fact check not correct. So why are these scams allowed to still go on . And in my mind my request would be there needs to be legislation and fines levied and people need to be held accountable but especially consumers who are not as savvy with internet purchasing with limited dollars. We are almost out of time. As a senator correctly said these platforms are complicit when we as congress dont want to be complicit i hear you that is required to protect consumers to make sure these are happening. We need to continue to have positive action and we need to hold those as examples but in the end we know time and time again selfregulation is insufficient not for them to say we are sorry that we need regulation. It is so important and so much more complicated to understand these companies are global. Borders dont matter if you have a facebook friend wherever on real time so having a patchwork of regulations and Accountability Measures isnt enough. And to come to those comments because that discussion has been so unbelievable working with patients and communities at risk you have given a global perspective to the problems of the conspiracy theories and the scammers what do you say to those legislators looking at the physical and Public Health . As a doctor i hope i make it clear for one moment i say im an expert on the solution but im just presenting a problem and my a testimony is not to notify social Media Companies but people are scared and dying and we all need to carry the blame. I think that is much as possible that effort is preferable over a confrontational one. One of the things mentioned by senator blumenthal is social Media Standards counsel so i do not know what the details would be but everybody should be able to set the rules of the road i know like facebook people have good intentions but they are not good enough and then they could harness their power to come up with a solution as possible. Senator blumenthal you can have concluding comments. Im always in favor of a collaborative effort. Of course my career in Law Enforcement leads me to think that sometimes although honey works better than vinegar sometimes Law Enforcement is necessary as a deterrent. And i will say and you mentioned earlier you heard countless times we will do it differently. This time will be different. We heard that at the beginning of the covid19 pandemic. And what we heard is thes kinds of scams appear regularly without any real action on the part of the platforms and thats why we need enforcement by the ftc and the congresswoman is right in Congress Needs to act whether a Community Standards panel or likely targeted reform section 230 or a Speaker Pelosi mentioned other incentives like taking down advertising if that effort can be organized effectively , maybe that provides incentive. Why do they not act more responsibly . I dont mean to be overly cynical that their Business Model is targeted advertising. And that Business Model is generating billions and billions of dollars for this industry and opening the gates without being too discriminating. And before we go i would ask the legislators, do you feel something is changing . And may be driven by covid19 but the bride public realize this information is not only outofcontrol but a fundamental threat to our physical health and national health. Maybe it will happen before the election that there is a Critical Mass shifting around this issue and maybe we will get serious. If i could, i think this is a transformational moment. And im very optimistic about change. The reason is that it looks like ordinary people have really found their voice the insistence to be treated fairly and that transfers into all the venous. So i do feel optimistic at this time we can do what we need to do with this information and to see Racial Justice and all the problems we are facing right now with coronavirus. I think its a question if congress is ahead or behind the American People to the immense political and financial Power Platform congress will be exceedingly difficult on gun violence prevention people overwhelmingly 95 percent prefer background checks but the nra and gun manufacturers prevent that from happening so the question really is a transformational moment on Racial Justice on the pandemic in terms of Healthcare Congress has to be at least on par with the American People not within a special interest. I thank you are right not sensationalism with that pandemic that let me say that loved ones family and friends that the challenges is the misinformation and thats a challenge that cannot be solved. Thank you very much you are all phenomenally busy thank you for spending some of your valuable time on such an important topic. Doctor stokes, your work with human beings who are sick or fear getting sick. You are up against so much. A special thank you for everything you have done in the very best to stay healthy and strong and your contributions to this conversation have added so much i hope members of the senate and congress will keep that in mind as they go about their business the experience that you have had glad working with fuzz feed you could expose that. Thank you for spending time here. I hope that doesnt happen agai again. You are very articulate and compelling in all of this. Thank you as well. It has been a full hour. Some final thoughts. Here is what we know. We are suffering through a Global Pandemic experiencing the worst economic crisis since the great depression. Globally. Also in our streets and communities with disparities and injustice that the covid19 pandemic making clear trillion Dollar Companies as we have heard profit over human toll with a blind eye to do too little to confront that information crisis we have heard the doctors that have joined us here that this can kill they must recognize their responsibility and they must step up to put their wealth and resources that made them what they are today part of the solution to stop the surge of information that confuses us to cost lives along the way that participants they are demanding from the social media platforms and regardless of politics so we are very grateful and the contribution of all witnesses to be especially grateful of that testimony those that are working with this problem to have this committee and legislation around the world to address the threat to tackle the issues. Some could be convened tomorrow following this process i want to say again this is a series of panels well be hosting we have another on june 29 on the timely topics of election and Voter Suppression our mission is to help the public and journalist and policymakers to senator, thank you for your time. We are getting out of here right on the nose at 11 40