Transcripts For CSPAN2 FAA Administrator Stephen Dickson Testifies On Plane Safety 20240712

Good morning. Today that committee convenes to a hearing on the faa oversight of aircraft certification i welcome our witnesses mr. Dixon and mr. Steele father sonja who tragically died plate three oh two and we thank them for participating. March 10 mark the oneyear anniversary of the crash of Ethiopian Airlines three oh two which was preceded by the p loss of flight 602. The aircraft involved in both accidents was the boeing 737 and max are deepest sympathies continue to go out to the families those loved ones who are among the 346 souls lost in these questions. Since the Ethiopian Airlines crash the committee has heard from many whistleblowers at the faa and boeing in the Aviation Industry. It is increasingly clear from our investigation the faa has a number of Serious Problems address. My investigation staff is interviewed dozens of witnesses many thousands of documents and emails and diligent pursuit of the facts. No matter where they lead i must express my profound frustration with the agencies lack of responsiveness to my requests dating back to last april for documents that stem from whistleblower disclosures. Iapril 2nd 2019 then acting administrator i sent a letter requesting information about certification of the faa safety inspectors following the responses to the initial request come i sent a followup letter to the acting administrator. Requesting information and then retaliation my managers. And with the subject matter of todays hearing i would note that 12 the the request that faa has not responded to pertain directly to the 737 mac certification which is the subject of todays subject matter the department of transportation and the council to identify and which they were responsive to and whether that production had a complete responses has been reiterated several times the not consistently followed the committee has made every effort to document production back in september 2019 the committee had a prioritized list of the ten most significant request, tend. To love these were emphasized again on december 182019 over the course of nine months we have received completed responses to those requests and six of them and no response at all to the top tenen items. And in one case staff requested emails between two faa employees during a short period of time agency provided a response to include a specific email be were pursuing and then narrowing was required to have a specific email the faa still additionalduced emails that i requested jul jut 2019. Today is june 17 we have not received any documents since aph of this year lack of timely and completely responses force that Committee Staff for those interviews. Sen. Roger wicker on the feasibility of our written interrogatories april 30th almost a month later. When they stated that in person, virtual interviews were a preferred. On may 5th, as a result of deity rejecting for a derogatory approach, the Committee Staff requested to interview the next faa deploying. Onga may 11, dmt staff stated ty were working to make the next interviewee available. That was my fifth. As of today, june 17, 2020, Committee Staff has on her back on when this interview can take place. Administrator dixon and our conversation must thursday, i raised a number of these. And spoke of our entire frustration generally for you, since your team would work with my staff quickly get back on track. I am extremely disappointed that we have not been instant progress since that phone call mr. Stephen dickson. My staff followed up immediately. In the request was acknowledged the note to which was made up a meeting. Last friday evening, my staffte reiterated the request. And provided comprehensive list of all outstanding requests pretty mighty mouse to schedule a call on monday. And it was denied. But your team offered to meet this thursday. Tomorrow. One day after this hearing. The entire purpose the large purpose of meeting was to get answers before this hearing. It is my understanding that last night, after my staff insisted the call. But no progress was made on resolving the multitude of outstanding issues. This record of delay and non responsiveness, clearly shows the unwillingness to cooperate in the congressional oversight. It is hard not to conclude your team at the faa has deliberately attempted to keep us in the dark. By that the main our investigation staff, our committee, and me. It is hard not to characterize our relationship during this entire process as being adversarial on the part of the faa. Administrator Stephen Dickson, i hold you responsible is ahead of the agency. I asked this question as we ask, ifi confirmed, will you pledge o work collaboratively with this committee and provide early and timely responses. You answered yes as we recall. As we require all nominees to do. The lack of cooperation by your agency calls into question the commitment behind that pledge. We areto not embarking on a fishing expedition. Request for documents, and interviews, have been very specific in content and reasonable in scope. I canxp only assume that the agency stone walling of my investigation suggests its comfort for what might ultimately be revealed. I expect to receive an explanation today at this hearing. For the failure to comply with the committees request. An omission part of the committees investigation involves the 737 max. Following the airlines crash, the faa groundd the fleet of 737 max airplanes. Over a year later the plane has still not been clearedaa to return to passenger service. The faa a, boeing and International Regulators involved in the recertification process, to take whatever time is needed to get the recertification right. As the recertification continues, the number of reviews including this committees investigation raise concerns about how the max was designed and certified. Hoand the nature of the relationship between the faa and boeing. The faa needs to hold accountable anyone at the agency or yvonne, who broke the rules are fell short of meeting expectations. Last october this clooney was the first of capital hill to convene anct Oversight Committee and with boeing leadership. Today we will hear from the administrator Stephen Dickson during the process. The steps that the agency is doing to save flight and the agency can help prevent future tragedies. The max recertification is a critical component of rebuilding public and International Trust in the faa. For the next creches, the faa was the unquestioned Gold Standard with regards to aviationon safety. Congress g has an Important Role to play in helping restore the confidence in the agency. As a result of the committees investigations, and the safety board from the joint authorities technical review and from the department of transportation, Ranking Member caswell and i have worked hard together and have legislation in their care act safety certification are meant to approve aviation safety. Our legislation creates for manufacturers. Reforms the organizations design authorization. Increase new emphasis on understanding how pilots interact with modern aircraft. Another Human Factors. Enhances and protection for whistleblowers and vultures congressional oversight. This monday, the day before yesterday, the Ranking Members have requested to be around. To strike. And despite this request, we are able to accommodate such a request by adding a second panel for. I look forward to details discussion of the faa aircraft certification process and how it can be improved so that these tragedies do not happen. I also expect an explanation of the agencies unwillingness to respond to this committees request for information. And out recognize my friend, and calling and Ranking Member senator cast well for her Opening Statement. Thank you for your statements. I want to say as Ranking Member understand that i we stand with you for anyo information reques. An effort to get the faa to comply with what the majority has been requesting. So thank you for that segment freedom to take a moment to recognize the families who have lost loved ones in ethiopia tragedies. I can imagine the loss of life and the pain that you are still feeling. I appreciate your vigilance. And they often attend the hearings and comment on Safety Measures before this committee. They cant be easy to continue that role that we thank you for doing it. All of the voices in these efforts to make are important. I also look forward to hearing testimony from mike. We have to get this right. For his daughter and the 346 victims of those crashes. Todays discussion is about leadership. Our about americas leadership in aviation safety. Safety is job one. In a critical sector that employs 2. 5 million people. 150,000 in the state of washington pretty safety is job one because it involves so many lives. The Leadership Task again begins with the faa and you administrator Stephen Dickson. We look forward to hearing how you look to build to improve safety in response to these two accidents. There have been numerous reports issued since the accident and unfortunately the faa response to a number of those investigations concerning the math, seemed more of the status quo than the needed changes that we want to see at the faa. Sen. Maria cantwell no matter what the structure of the faa, it must be clear that it is an independent agency with oversight of certification. We need to have the best more force which i believe we do in the northwest. But we must have experts and investigators, that are qualified and technically trained at the faa to oversee and sufficient manner the compliance process. Theres a lot of discussion about wall t street and the approach to aviation a value engineering. Im going to tell you something northwest. The pride ofti the northwest, is about innovation and solid engineering. And solid engineering advancements. It is not about doing things on the quick. Itit is about doing things deliberately and getting safety right. I want to see at certification process where we are listening to those engineers at the beginning of the process who are calling out some of these safety issues. They faa management needs to be willing to back up those engineers on the ground for calling out safety concerns at the earliest phases of the process. Not at the end and certainly not after certification. The faa system of delegation dates back to 1958. Actually can trace back to 1927 private doctors were conducting private healthck checks. However, is the faas own action taking authority in the delegation of manufacturer protectintechnical approval of t started in 2005 under the oba system. Under this program the industry engineer on behalf of the faa. These lines of oversight in communication were fragmented. I believe and i think the chairman believes as well, we need a system of certification where hardworking engineers ad engineering safety as driving the certification process. Not the other way around. We can have planes certified and then after the certification have them grounded because of unsafe features. A technical review by the International Safety authorities joint Authority Technical review identified the number of problems with the oba problem in faa oversight pretty specifically the need for a more holistic review and the fact that engineering expertise needed to have open Communication Systems and the Technology Level of the Technical Expertise level of those engineers needs to be there. So mr. Stephen dickson today i hope we will hear about what the faa will need to reform in this program. What reforms of those suggested by the chairman wicker and myself do you support. I dont want to thank chairman wicker and esteem and my team. On think them for working so collaboratively with us in a hardworking introducing this legislation that the chairman just mentioned. I believe it does fundamentally change the way the faa oversees the certification of large commercial aircraft. Specifically, our built aircraft and certification act of 2020 come will revamp the oda and make sure that the faa stays in the driver seat of certification. Under our belt, thend faa once again be responsible for directly appointing and approving the engineer to pass out this certification on behalf of thehe administration. The fa will have people safely monitor these designees. And we also create amm new whistleblower protection of fortify the channels of communication and reporting safety. Critically, arkville will end any semblance of self certifications by appealing sections that would give the faa Additional Authority under specific provisions. Our bill also requires of limitation of the intestacy safety automation in part a response as well as Safety Management systems for air crafting manufacturers. I believe the standards would address these issues of multiple flight alerts, and the need for Pilot Training. So i want to thank senator duckworth for her work with me on this legislation. Maybe patient Human Factors safety act. The faa must keep pace with the skills, and have the technical capacity to handle an increasingly complex aircraft technology. Automation is certainly health safety, but the amount of automation and control demand is can be confusing particularly when only have seconds to respond. So understanding the interactions between Human Technology and operationle environment, is becoming more critical to safety. In aviation. That is whyet the bill also establishes a center of excellence or fly to automation and Human Factors and creates an office of the faa office of continuing education and training to make sure that those inspectors maintain and keep the expertise necessary to do the oversight but is required by the faa. We also need technical advisors to address these developing new technologies. With technology changing, building skills is important. On think senator moran for introducing the foreign civil assisting capacity act which will increase global pilots standards in faa bilateral to improve Pilot Training. The United States needs to be loud and clear that we want to see strong chairmanship. That is to say a pilot need to be able to fly the plane without the automation. And i hope that ween and you wil help lead that effort of an international basis. They also need a strong aviation workforce for the future. And that is why i have partnered with senator blunt that grand Fellowship Program of 2020 which will create narrow space policy fellowship and leaders for the future act. Its clear the race for aviation around the globe is on. So we cannot have that race of competition drive us away from a solid safety and certification regime. The solution to that competition i believe, is to hire and retain the best Safety Experts that we can find. So is look forward to hearing e ways in which you believe the faa needs to improve process worried and again i want to thank chairman wicker for his leadership on the bill that we just introduced. Thank him for his focus on this issue. We do need to hand hold manufacturers accountable for compliance and Safety Standards through the process. I look forward to continuing to work with them on that. We need to have certain design features that we know are compliant with the standards. No one wants to see a process where at the end of the process, it is not clear that the data indicates actual compliance. Ill have many questions about this. So mr. Stephen dickson, we are looking forward to the leadership that you will provide in addressing these issues. Safety has been paramount. In the faa has to be independent read so thank you for being here and i look forward to hearing ndfrom both our witnesses. Thank you mr. Chairman. Administer dickson, im sure you will want to respond to the statements made. But specifically, just to reiterate, my investigative staff began this effort on july 31st of last year. As i pointed out we received no response. Over half of the items requested. Even after we narrowed down the scope of our request significantly. There has been a lack of cooperation. So please explain to the committee your position in this regard. Then we will have followup questions also read. Stephen dickson good morning mr. Chairman. Members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me here. You have an Opening Statement. Feel free to summarize that in five minutes also. I neglected that separate is someplace pretty. Stephen dickson yes are. Thank you for inviting me here today to speak with you about the faas oversight of aircraft certification and to provide you with an update on the 737 max. But first i want to assure the families of those who lost their lives, and the open airlines and that you and your loved ones are foremost in our thoughts. Think of you every day. And is good to see michael and not in the other family members with us this morning. Lessons learned from these accidents willing to increase safety worldwide. Our pledges not only in words, but in the implementation of tangible and lasting improvements that will result in part the observations of recommendations weve received from many review bodies including this Committee Read it before he the focus of the hearing, i like to take a moment to address some of the challenges the Aviation Industry is based rated for the Ongoing Public Health emergency. Aviation employees have worked diligently these past months despite the risk to themselves. To safely transport passengers and much needed supplies. Now the traveler demand is beginning to return. The faa a fully supports and strongly encourages industries adoption of precaution to protect employee and passenger health. The centers for Disease Control and prevention as well as international Public Health agencies. In advised that face coverings are especially important. Secretary and department of transportation have beenon clea. There passenger should wear face coverings to protect themselves and those around them. And that we expected the book eatraveling public to follow directions. And those as we move through the veins of reopening, we will continue to apply our aviation expertise to help lead efforts of other federal agencies industry and International Partners to address Public Health risk in the Public Transportation system. With our evaluation of the 737 max, return to service, the faa entities follow thorough process vetted by the datadriven methodical review of boeings proposed modifications. In the u. S. , i returned to Service Decision will rest solely on the faa sno analysis k on these areas. At the same time, will continue the assistance and work closely with their International Counterparts as they make their own evaluations. Ultimately when the aircraft resumes passenger flights, it will be because safety issues have been addressed because violence around the world will receive the training that they need to safely operate the aircraft. Before that happens, the faa must conduct the certification flight test and complete Pilot Training assessment by the joint operation Evaluation Board. It includes International Partners and pilots from the carriers. Foreign air once that assessment is complete, the faas boeing 737 flight centralization portable issue a public report addressing the findings. Additionally, the faa and the multiagency tech ankle Advisory Board will review allor final design documentation. The last steps for the faa to approve each u. S. Carriers updated Pilot Training program is you will continue their work in the notification to the international community. In advising operators the required corrective actions. As i have said many times, i will not sign off on this aircraft until all technical reviews are complete. I also intend to pilot their correct myself for the faa makes any decision. Beyond there maxima our commitmt to improve the marginal safety for the Aviation Industry globally will start with the best certification but ultimately be much broader. The faa recently provided committee with the action plan. In response to the recommendations of the secretary special committee to review the certification process. Both planned and underway, to address not only the recommendations from the special committee, but also the joint authorities, the nts feed and Transportation Safety committee and faas own findings. Beyond certification, the faa tackling safety issues. Not only in the United States for the internationally as well. We are prepared to take the lead at this new phase of worldwide safety. For example, we presented working paper last year on Pilot Training and automation dependency. This material was recently added in the proposal the formation of personal training and licensing panel. Our action plan focuses on ten areass for global aviation safety. Including Safety Management systems, data and innovation. By 2021 budget request to support the activity. Resting to recruit additional specialized invoice such as Human Factors expert and Software Engineers and more additional money for both are for successful Information Sharing Program such as science. I have said many times over the city as it journey not a destination. We must never allow ourselves to become complacent. Always we must keep in mind the passengers and their loved ones for whom we work. This concludes my statement and i will be glad to injury your questions. Thank you very much. Lets go ahead and sort of jumped the gun. Normally reserve our opening remarks. The tone of my remarks today i think will will rick recognizes not really my style. But i hope you understand mr. Administrator, the very serious way see the lack of response your agency. And so i will certainly give you an opportunity to respond to my complaints in my Opening Statement. Under the ones i mentioned to you personally over the phone. And again, my Investigative Team began with july 31st. And i have received no response and over half of the items. Can you explain to the committee what has happened in the faa. In this regard. Iephen dickson thank you and always appreciate the opportunity for dialogue. As you mentioned our conversation last thursday. Our oversight seem unconnected with your staff last night. I believe that will put us in a position to make progress. As i have said many times, i am totally committed to the oversight process. I realize it is an important matter for you. You made that clear. He made itim doubly clear this morning and i appreciate that. I also want you to know that its very important to the agency. Its a responsibility that i take very seriously. I believe is inaccurate to portray the agency is unresponsive. You have provided responses family of seven major subject areas in the july request. Still ongoing work and i would just point out that we have a number of investigations underway that were already supporting teams. And some of the information requests have been indicated, matters within those investigations. We certainly dont want to prejudice the outcome of those however, want to redouble our efforts. I hear your frustration and that is not okay with me. That is not what we want to be. Im trying to promote a culture both within the agency really with all the stakeholders of transparency and openness. And this is an opportunity for us to do that. So i look forward to continuing to work with you to raise the bar on aviation safety. Again in the u. S. And the worldwide. I would reiterate with regard to the request for information and documents from this committee, from our stuff, has been most unsatisfactory for example, when asked for copies of emails between two parties. And we were asked asking to make them more specific. Knowing pinpoint the very day and time of email, the response from employees and faa has been a reluctance to supply that. We have an important responsibility to the taxpayers. To provide oversight. To be there is no excuse for that. Let me make this suggestionof to you. It seemed to me beneficial if you can name one specific senior person under your supervision to be the contact with our staff directors. On this matter. And that person would be would be responsible for making sure the agency provided satisfactory responses. In portable teal and my staff would be reported to me. At least it would be direct conduit of information request directly from this senior staff person to the administrator. Would you be willing to agree to that procedure based on my frustration. Stephen dickson we will set up a process to have more dynamic communication as you suggest. But im making a specific suggestion to you. And youre not willing to accept that at this point. Stephen dickson mr. Chairman, we will agree to that. Sen. Roger wicker i appreciate that. Sen. Maria cantwell thank you mr. Chairman. Administrator cckson, i would like to ask some questions to you predict changes that we would like to see in the faa both in the legislation that we proposed in the we think l continue to needo be addressed beyond this legislation. If you could help me out was much yes no that would be helpful. Should aircraft manufacturers be accountable for compliance and design data submitted to the faa a. Their approval. Yes or no. Stephen dickson yes. Speech of do you think it should exist throughout the process not just at the end for safety concerns and designs are tougher to rework andt correct. Stephen dickson im not knowledgeable in some of the details that youre referring to but i believe the holistic approach that you refer to, is taken the system would provide would produce that result. So the answer is yes. Sen. Maria cantwell applicants must comply with standards. Thats a good idea. Yes. Faa reports noncompliance of the faa should ensure that corrective action is taken prior to getting a certificate. Stephen dickson yes. Sen. Maria cantwell and if noncompliance was found after the certificate was given. And that process provides for yes. Sen. Maria cantwell certainly have concerns that is not what has taken place in the past is good to hear that that is what you think you should or should take place now. And i think the end result of the process is the faa approval, the approval of the certificate. As we go through this process one of the failures of the 737 max which is just unacceptable we need to make sure that compliance and airworthiness requirements are met. So do you agree with the purpose of the certification is to achieve compliance. Stephen dickson yes. Sen. Maria cantwell and c shoud be airworthiness standards. Stephen dickson and, yes, i would say that it is actually higher bar than compliance. Compliance with individual rules is not necessarily produce a safe outcome. And this what we are trying to deal with. Sen. Maria cantwell ar i agree with that in the holistic prospect. But the anger we have between the beginning of the process on this certificate and the final airworthiness approval. And certainly the max situation didnt catch the problems. Certainly, information. So thats where this data in your questions and answers are so important hopefully that would help us in moving forward. If i can ask you know about the bill that senator wicker and i introduced. Do you agree that in order to raise the bar, the faa should be directly appointing these members. Stephen dickson center, without commenting specifically on the bill, we need to certainly takea systems approach. We need to have strong oversight of the oda. We already approved. Sen. Maria cantwell i am not genteel, about this and are perfected. Im a little more blunt. So dont want to be stonewalled here. Deeply the faa should retain and appoint these individuals and oversee them in the process pretty yes or no. Stephen dickson we certainly improve theiror qualifications. The backgrounds, the individuals selection is not something that i believe would add to the safety of the process that is something that we are certainly anxious to work with the committee on. See if there is a way that we can add that in. Speedo mr. Dickson, its a little hard to view you through the lens because of this gentleman here. It is the very point. We needed and then dependent faa. It we need the lines of communication between these whistleblowers or whoever is on the engineering, the member who was on the run who says, this is a problem. He needs to be backed up by the faa. But he dont have a direct line to that employee and you dont approve them in the final and you dont oversee his work and you dont have the right expertise at the faa, needs not going to be backed up by you. Stephen dickson i could not agree more. Since you are blunt think german. On this topic, just being responsive. Sure you know this is really a concern to every member of the committee. The help that the process yield and a the chairman have agreed o actually produces a different result but often, the request mr. Administrator, is not that hard to respond to. Agencies continue to create problems for themselves and difficulties for us are not just responding with information you have as opposed to analyzing will usually respond with that to that request. There is virtually never a question that eventually you will be required to respond or that you should respond or that the life required to respond or only testified along with many others, confirmation hearing, you agreed to always respond and always respond quickly. That question is not asked a confirmation hearing, is an oversight. Anywhere some of that today. Im not sure if you and colleagues around this department and many others can ever hear enough of that because it is a constant problem. Almost always selfinflicted. Nine agencies refusal to have somebody who will take responsibility. So maybe if your agreement today will allow that to happen. Enreally important. I may go over a little of what the senator cantwell has already asked about. Sen. Blunt but on the oda office, do you think that the legislation has been introduced by the chairman and the Ranking Member for additional oversight, that this would benefit the process of how oda personnel and procedures are approved. Stephen dickson thank you for the question senator. There are many elements of the proposal legislation and are exactly on point in terms of limiting systematic approaches and strong oversight in a datadriven process between the manufacturer and the faa. Also strengthening the workforce aspects, we really need a system approach. In system thinking and the engineers, Human Factors individuals. So those Additional Resources would be very helpful. Sen. Blunt 72018, cente senator cantwell and i were targeted 2018 faa act and all the members of this committee and i chaired the subcommittee at the time and she was the democratic on the subcommittee and brought this legislation forward. Can youou give me an update on w the implementation of the 2018 faa act as it relates to these programs, as occurred. As the faa implementation graded any changes to its oversight of the c odas since those 737s crashes. Stephen dickson yes senator, the oda office has been or was implemented within the last year. I went set up the framework and the process to essentially oversee an audit and also the nine protease. And we have money in our budget request for the upcoming fiscal year to continue to develop and permanently staff at office. Andom will continue to do that. We have also recently selected a project manager who will be reporting to me quarterly. On the execution are the one of the issues karen the proposed legislation. Athe companys version that wil fit ais lot of the same names in terms of implementing the recommendations from the special Committee Report, and the technical review and the recommendations. Sen. Blunt other recertification on the plane, you say you would reply that yourself. What kind of special information for training what is called pilot like you need before he got in the cockpit of a plane that was ined the process of beg certified again. Stephen dickson senator, i have got quite a bit of flying time in 737, on previous versions. Ive been out in my first month, on the job, went out to seattle and flown the various profiles. So i am very with the system. Also my deputy and i will be completing the same Simulator Training at the operations Evaluation Board pilots. But they will be through and then i will completed flight profile on the aircraft as well. So you have several days of preparation to get ready for that event. Guest thank you very much for holding this hearing. An administrator dickson, thank you for being here. I especially want to acknowledge families out there. Im so glad that i know that senator cantwell worked hard in the spring and i am so sorry for your loss. And you courage for coming forward for your daughter, is going to make a difference, not just for a family been for so many other families out there. I wanted to start mr. Dickson. These two tragic plane crashes, in indian asia and ethiopia over 300 people, including by the way one of my constituents, and st. Cloud minnesota. At the Community Hearing in october, concerns about findings about or from the department of transportation Inspector General found that the faa conducted only 4 percent of manufacturers employees response over conducting the certification. In the plane report off also the one manufacture includes about 95 percent of the certifications for its own aircraft. So knowing that this program contributed to the faas oversight, the failure and certification, a concern about how widely the romans used and how little oversight there is. And release the plans to approve the certification process. But it would not change the program, or addresses undo usher manufactured issues. Can you address my concerns about whether this is in from vermont. Stephen dickson i share your perspective on the family spring as i said, well attend them in the public to do what is right. With respect to the amount of delegation, depends on, the oda process is based on trust. I would say it is a trust but verify system. It is a privilege and has me hard. In early in the certification process, there is typically only very routine items that are delegated and there are four parts of the certification process in terms of establishing certification basis. Actually the only part that is actually delegated as analysis and testing. And those of the items that you see as we see data as a process continues over. Typically, five seven years in most cases. In their maybe an opportunity to delegate additional items in terms of the certification analysis and testingn only. Sen. Klobuchar the undue pressure is what i am concerned about credit and internal serving a a boeing where one thd of its employees said they felt that pressure. Stephen dickson i think that is an extremely important issue. We continue to investigate instances of undue pressure. But specifically, this is why Safety Management systems are so important because the only way to address that culture issue is by increasing the ability for frontline boats both of whom the agency and from the manufacture to bring issues forward in real time. When the the benefits is that it puts safety responsibility where it belongs at the highest levels of the manufacturer. It also promotes transparency. Sen. Klobuchar packages move on. I want to ask you quick to question. Noted, that the underlying assumptions about how pilots would react and are certain conditions, where they were served barely flawed. He started looking at the ongoing aircraft for other boeing aircraft based on recommendations regarding these pilot assumptions. To me that would be a problem even if another pilot pretty. Stephen dickson the Human Factors in the pilot, and design of their craft is something we are reviewing closely. Normally the return of the service of the max but the processes in general. Iis a key pillar of our strateg. Sen. Klobuchar the special committee by secretary chow to review the practices recommended that the faa should expand its standards. In already references with senator moran and kept up. And cantwell. And one of the cosponsors and the authority assistance, has the capacity act to help improve international Pilot Training. Do believe that the faa should work international, Safety Standards for the industry. They will know, my constituents, during the crash, no one are americans are going to be on the flights all over theti world. Stephen dickson i wholeheartedly agree. And then i talked about before, is activity that were already undertaking in this area. We look forward to continue to engage both bilateral originally on pilots training qualification issues around the world. It. Thank you. Technically that are oclock is a must be on the screens. Thank youl mr. Chairman. Administrator dickson, welcome. It is good to have you here. The joint authorities technical review is said the faa was not aware of the mcas but because the information and discussions about these recommendations we proved it was difficult to recognize the impact and implications of the system. Last october i asked then boeing president and ceo about that fragmentation and he responded that boeing neededab to make changes to improve the communications. Do you agree the communication between going and faa that was fragmented to the point that relevant information cannot provide to the agency. And if so, how will steps that you have outlined such as a wSafety Management system and just culture, include. Stephen dickson for the question. A couple of points there. I agree and i think our reviews and the other reviews have shown that information was presented in a fragmented manner. And i was difficult to follow the entiree thread. This is part of one of the major issues that we are dealing with. Within the agency, we have recently taken steps to have our pilots and ourly flight standars wrote involved earlier in the certification process throughout. Farmer effort to make sure human factor considerations are taken into account. An integrated into theer design process. Safety standards are probably the biggest game changer in my experience in terms of turning a culture around making it more transparent in focus at the highest levels in three of the organization on safety and quality. It also puts the agency in a much stronger position in terms of being able to oversee the entire certification process because it is less transactional. So the question and answer period is actually identifying. Were actually privy to the picture is the program progresses. Let the goes into the begin date is very important in communications. It would definitely put us in a much better place. We are saying that aircraft is becoming more more automated. Of controls about any kind violence. During the hearing lester, Inspector General sent reliant information is growing concern among industry experts. In enough training and enough experience maintain manageable proficiency to share that concerned about automation. Stephen dickson i do not a nation iss a benefit and it is led and been part of the improvement in aviation safety that we have seen over the years. But theof individual still has o be engaged with machine. To the extent that were overreliance women Situational Awareness flying the airplane. You still have to remain mentally engaged with aircraft. There is a balance. In integrating Human Factors and human capabilities into the design has always been important. It is more important now than it ever has been rated. Thank you mr. Chairman. Thank you for conducting this hearing. Mr. Dickson. I want to change the subject a little bit flying safely during the pandemic. The International Aviation Organization Recently issued recommendation for travel during the pandemic and i just want to get your views on those recommendations and what the faa is going to integrate that into their process. Stephen dickson thank you for the question. Actually those recommendations were the result of work that we did in the agency. And brought forth through to the aiko counsel. I selected a deputy administrator to identify any work with the council and with authorities around the world. To bring those guidelines forward. Working on a similar process within the u. S. Government and i certainly involving the cdc and others jumbo somerset measures and guidelines for travel within the u. S. Using measured by my seeming rules and human guidelines. Stephen dickson i mean, guidelines as a secretary said, these will not be regulatory mandates. They will be very specific and we expect for your carriers and the public to follow those islands as well as their personal working with the air carriers on this pretty were using their Safety Management systems in the data that is coming out of the systems to monitor. Was this philosophical. I mean, this is celebrated just dont get why you wouldnt want thisis to be mandatory. I dont understand why were started going with this sort of private sector driven approach here or voluntary approach. This is just a matter of care presto what the federal government should do. When youre talking about aviation, certainly federal and we are talking about pandemic, falls zoo the categories poorly of the safety, the kind of thing you should make mandatory if you come to how to fly safely. Alchemy dont want to maketo a role. Stephen dickson i am coming at this, and the agency comes at this from a aviation safety perspective pretty so there are many things from a lot of benefit we have that we get from the commercial aviation carrier. We need to make sure that there is not an impact on aviation safety. With respect to Public Health, that is the cdc and force a have responsibilities for sectors of transportation and really the entire Public Health situation goes well beyond aviation pretty were acting as a facilitator in that process. But if there was something for aviation safety then we are concerned about that. Were working on that process within the government to make sure that we have consistent guidelines out there. I got it. We have a difference of an opinion here. Im hoping we will be able to bipartisan support for the mandatory rules here. But i dont want to use up all my time. More questions. His flying safe from the standpoint of coronavirus. Stephen dickson yes doubly so. We all have a role to play. We have to protect each other and again the carriers in airports and tsa and allstate rpowners out there. The faa air traffiC Organization, we have make sure that we are operating the system safely and consistently unpredictable pretty. One final question. On may 1st, the dc circuit ruled in the case of coalition, the faa must establish management plans for all covered charts within two years for them assuming you will implemented that as soon as possible. Especially in those parts were this is an area of contention. Stephen dickson yes and i am familiar with the rolling. I believe we are working with the park service now. And have a preliminary plan. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you mr. Dickson. Thank you for your efforts i dont know exactly the information you are seeking from the faa but im pleased when congressional efforts are madedein for oversight please consider me an ally in any way i can be of help to be sure the faa and others that respond to the congressional inquiry. This is valuable to me with your responses before covid19 and i thank you for that. I am not at all suggesting anything but safety should drive the process but it surprises me how long it has taken because i assume the plane that was previously certified the 737 max it seems the changes necessary for the needs for safety would be rather modest is that the typical distinction . And we get to a point in which the magnitude of the problems of the 737 masker on macs are so great it takes a significantly long time to get fixed . So tell me again during the last conversation you indicated this summer as covid19 slow down the process of recertificationon . To your last point we are not on any timeline. We have not had any impact with covid19 was obviously with International Travel so there are a couple of alternatives we are looking at to have the process in place that work but that has proceeded. We raise a great question that i think needs to be clear the redesign of the airplane is not just limited to changing the functionality. To be the june and july timeframe of last year and the computers that compare signals dynamically is very ambitiouss project. And as we have move forward if you make a system like that more robust, what happens is it implicates the interdependence that hadad to be taken into account so we move forward diligently and carefully and has retained all matters within the faa. But thats why this is such a journey we went on. Administrator i am in no anything that the timeframe and the question is we can have this conversation ourselves is the magnitude of the changes e necessary to suggest the certification initially was significantly flawed to begin with . Ill be glad to follow i up to touch on the things in the 30 seconds i have left. I want. To submit how we get the faa to be in a better position to move in advancing aviation safety through technology there are some significant opportunities we dont lose the chance to pursue those innovations as we pursue certification. The workforce across the country is damaged, the absence is noted for those are prevalent across the Aerospace Industry across Central Kansas and elsewhere as well. We are looking for a private Public Partnership keeping them on the payroll and i would seek your advice and suggestions and finally i appreciate senator cantwells cooperation along with senator klobuchar in regard to senate bill 3959 i guess theres no time left i will follow up with you in writing with the second round of questions. Let me remind members we have a series of two votes beginning 1145 i have talked to senator cantwell and our intention is simply to share the gavel and proceed and do the best we can to conclude both panels of this hearing. We are required the next committee to surrender this room no later than 1 00 oclock and surely we will be able to do that but i also appreciate members being so thoughtful to the five minute timeframe with theirburr questions. Senator blumenthal. I will be less genteel than senator cantwell i find your responsesto to be totally unsatisfactory. The culture of secrecy at the faa has been aggravating under your tenure. You have completely refused to respond to any letters lrequesting information. Not even an explanation. I see no way you can continue in this job if you fail to be more responsive to this committee. I think it begins today with a commitment to and that culture of secrecy. To commit to major reforms of the kind that the chairman and the Ranking Member have suggested in their legislation. I welcome it because it includes stronger protections for whistleblowersio that i suggested in the bipartisan reform proposal was support from senators markey and feinstein and warren not only protection for whistleblowers with minimum qualification for those engineers performing work on the faa units and addressing concerns about complications and bonuses for meeting performance goals. The faa is complicit in these crashes by failing to do more diligent oversight like dog watching tv and there has to be reforms that take back our major swath of the authority that has been delegated the faa has to do the work not just oversee it perform work that involves certification. So let me ask you first why can the faa not take back the authority delegated over critical safety features . I vehemently disagree with your characterization for my desire for transparency i want to reiterate that commitment i made to the chairman as well. We want to collaborate and Work Together with the committee. Critical novel technologies are things that are typically not delegated by the agency. As i said in my remarks earlier testing and analysis on more routine matters in the certification process are typically delegated. We delegate that authority with respect to the 737. No sir. Late in the project is a critical phase. I invite you to expand on your answer in written responses. Would you join me to see preemption of claims made against a manufacturer airline simply because there was certification by the faa . Going takes the position it will deny all claim simply because the faa is certified. Am happy to work with you on that proposal. I was hoping for a yes. Im not prepared to respond on that point todaywa. We join me to support time limits on the certificates for certification a specific airlines . I believe youre talking about the change productr rule. And one of the areas we are looking at and that remains to be seen that current rule and enables safe additions to be brought into safe and existing designs effectively and in many cases then what other states are designed. Left to its own devices the aviation certification system before consumer safety and it has to be radically performed. And among those that you havent answered. And then you will provide an answer in light of your responses here. Is that a letter to the administrator . Thank you senator blumenthal. Thank you for hosting this important hearing. My heart goes out to you and your family for your loss and your courage to do this g today. Thank you for your efforts to restructure and improve the faa to ensure it is a Global Leader of safety. Talk about how you structure the faa with the basicba accountability with a Global Leader of safety and the certification process . The level of engagement globally the first few months have been extremely impressive i am proud to have the privilege to lead 45000 professionals at the agency. They are extremely committed. We start out we are a technical C Organization the top priority is safety. We have to be driven by corere values. We have to have an approach for transparent we can have professional disagreements and then to deal with issues from an Agency Perspective. And then there is a department for the staff office that is pursuing its own goals and maybe using itss own data and across the entire Agency Perspective we have a lot of data and problems over the years that created pockets and we have to see the whole picture and thats one of the things were working on. What i mentioned in response to senator klobuchar is a more seamless integration in the certification group. Does that incorporate any crosschecking . Like human error . Thats always part of the process and as response to the special Committee Report looking at some of those assumptions of human error and how thate is incorporated more effectively. With the issues of the 737 mask with that certificationh process. P that is all of the reviews that have been done on the committee the dialogue we have had with any agency leading us to a more robust process. With the Safety Management systems. And now we plan to initiate rulemaking on that shortly. And then to take those same kinds of benefits into the manufacturing sector. And in that process that works and then clearly will be safe. And that is the safest form of travel the commercial aviation sector is down 94 percent last 20 years. We have millions of fights over the last decade and one death is one to mehdi that is tragic and unacceptable. And that the products around the world and then we have to raise that bar around the world as well. Thank you senator scott and senator markey. You shouldve known about the safety of the boeing 737 max before it ever took off. Air flight 610 should have led to an immediate grounding of this plane if the faa allows the clearly unsafe max for five months after the first crash which killed 189 people. During the five months the faa repeatedly said it did not have enough ked data to ground e max. But the faa conducted the unpublished Risk Assessment after the air tragedy this could have prevented 15 more fatal crashes in the life of the max. Fifteen or the faa new the 737 max was not safe and let it fly. The faa knew and gambled with thousands of lives. They only change course after 157 more people died on the Ethiopian Airlines flight 302. That never had to happen. And then to be demanded before second crash. To make the faa is completely transparent if it reviews to ungrounded the maximal you commit for every document and study relating to the end grounding of 737 max public . I appreciate the question the document you are referring to is not predictive. And the actuarial calculation and then to make sure will you make every document available . Everyy document . Thats an easy question. I am not sure what normal protocol is but we will be as transparent as we can. No. Thats not the question. Not as you can. Thats what happened the last time. You are not transparent the last time. We make everyti document public . Im not in a position to commit to that at this point. If not that you are part of a coverup you are complicit you not providing the information that will be needed. And what senator blumenthal was just asking with these tragic crescent one crashes even though the former ceo was fired left with a 60 milliondollar golden seshparachute with the 7 milliondollar bonus. And boeing settle the claims of victims and this is outrageous. How boeing has learned its and so i am appalled that they are now arguing in court the certification of the 737 max should be shielded from liability from the victims families although it was clearly unsafe and effective. Do you support boeings position that the victims families be able to hold boeing accountable for defective play regardless of they comply with broken faa regulations . I cannot comment on that but i am willing to follow up with you on that question. No way they should escape liability i thank you know that. I think its important for you ultimately to make a statement to that effect and to act that way and to that effect. And that safety responsibility. Thats important for people to hear boeing has responsibility glad you clarified that. And then for the record to indicate is not just the faa but boeing themselves has that responsibilityor. Thank you Ranking Member cantwell. The duty of the committee is to closely examine theyo failure of the faa and boeing we must reexamine the p Current System of that much too cozy relationship between regulators and companie companies. I want to make this point crystal clear. And of course the faa moving faster to approve the 737 max was totallyth counterproductive and this is the case study of the complete and total failure and thats one of the big mistakes in history in this area. Committee report you said the administration would increase in the middle of this investigation and in with this Designation Authority the 2018 faa bill required they do so over hundreds of lives lost before you committed as required by law. We appreciate your question. Well in advance of the budget request we didnt have the resources at that point not so they will allow us to do. I want to reform the oda process its essential to prevent future accidents to recommend anys. Reforms . I have mentioned several times this morning the implementation of Safety Management systems, the use of safety Risk Management and its very important as well as the consideration of the environment around the globe some of the recommendations we have responded to and they are very consistent. Have you implemented those changes already . With respect to working on that we are in the process and have planshe to recruit with system safety engineers as well as additional Human Factors and experts and with the tech Advisory Board and the centuries seven max and that issuance and would continue to do that. And that certification process the faa is aware of changes of Company Makes to its equipment but reports say the faa was not aware of the significance of the changes boeing made to the equipment and those policy changes have they made to regain the trust of the faa and the American People . That will truly comply with regulatory requirements in the future . Its a great question. The Safety Management system we are seeing a Culture Shift in some areas but we will stay right on that process to make sure we see this through as we continue to reform the process and Safety Management systems as well. We are so sorry for the loss i want to talk about a specific question of the topics that have been asked and before this panel with the Brazilian Aviation Agency coming to the us in 2017 to determine the changes made were significant enough and then provide to the pilot when they eventuallyy published it yet was able to make one of the changes the pilots needed to take into consideration and yes the t us pilots of that was not in the manual why was that the case and why did they not take Additional Information . Im on record and i strongly believe it should have been in the operations material provided to the pilots anything that controls the Flight Control system of the airplane that they should have so i have concerns how that was initially done. The faa will based on major operational changes and it will do this. Thats a great question. We do that now through the certification and management teamth and depending on the operating environment in different parts of thehe world and the difference of opinion of those details. Dont you agree it might be better to over inform . On the off chance. Thats how i was going to finish the sentence if there is any doubt to have that teinformation available. And then to follow up to make the manufacturers that are not activated how do you plan to be sure because they need to know how they do the override. Two things. The integration of the pilots in the design process and to undertake training our technical pilots within the faa who are not certification experts to train them on things like system safety assessments and certification process to be embedded earlier on in that will put us in a much better position to have thisis ability with the certification of a particular project. We are joined remotely by senator duckworth. Can you hear me now . Thank you i apologize. Im sorry i cannot be on video right now but i have several questions yes and no your agency can take legal enforcement action in violation is this correct . And that policy of realtime aircraft is that correct . Yes any type of operation of an aircraft is the filing command and that something we definitely want to look into. Faa regulations with a thousand feet above the highest obstacle. And then you have to go back and verify that forp yourself. Check me out on a helicopter some time. And then to pull up the slide and then in Downtown Washington dc are you as outraged as i am . We are looking into that we are aware of the circumstances and compliance with air thtraffic regulations in addition to the operation of the aircraft and Ongoing Investigation. I believe what you are referring to took place within area but thed pilot in commandnd is still responsible for safety regulations. And then to be prohibited under the geneva convention. So on the same night is that helicopter violate the faa safety regulations under investigation we are looking into it carefully i would be happy to follow up once we complete our review. And those that report directly to the president of the United States during the unique political status. And not that you were talking about. Yes we have open an investigation. [inaudible] i do not know this morning but i will follow up. We will provide you with the results of the investigation, yes. Do you agree with this tweet from President Trump . With the dangerous maneuvers on american soil . And and. In the first time i have seen it. And how this applies to a particular situation if we look into the facts. We have had a technical issue i believe you referred to three sides. Lets enter those and the record is there any objection . Thank you senator duckworth. Thank you mr. Chairman. This past december and a 13 yearold daughter joslin were killed in a Helicopter Crash in hawaii on vacation a local Business Leader and an energetic and positive presence. I understand there is an ongoing ntsbns investigation into that Helicopter Crash but i would also note the serious whistleblower allegations for misconduct at the faa that was prevented from inspecting that so can i a hand of your commitment that it is not repeated for any other family . We have to make sure we are doing Everything Possible to promote aviation safety Helicopter Air tours and other operations of thisom type are not where they need to be from a safety perspective and we are engaged in training inspectors with the appropriatesu background and be welcome to work with you on mhe subject. And then to follow up on the bipartisan amendment we have included in the faa reauthorization act. Requiring the department of transportation with the existing to ensure the assistance and transportation specifically w noting that concerned it doesnt require handson training with those passengers including those with spinal cord injuries. They have been trapped during the transfer process it is unacceptable. I have not yet receivedf a response which requested an update on your review of existing regulations and standards. Can you share that update with me now . This is not specifically within the purview but the aviation policy area of the department and we will get an update o for you. I cannot currently see the timeclock. One a half minutes. Administrator, at your confirmation hearing before this committee with the Ongoing Investigation at the faa with the dot Inspector General and the department of justice. And if concerned what you require of bowing before and grounding the 737 max if you were administrator of the faa they have produced reports and recommendations including the department of transportation and mostau recently that a key certification in that very same question i asked you a little over a year ago. So what do you require of bowing before giving the green knight two and grounding that 737 max . We want that process to be completed. We have said many times and work the process through to completion. But one of the things we have been working with going on and to see improvements is t to give us a complete data submission and we will continue to do that. W there are some there are some penalty actions the secondlargest civil penalty in the faa. And then to hold them blcountable and if thats necessary. Senator cruise. Thank you mr. Chairman. A little over a year ago you said before this committee in a confirmation hearing. At the time i and others told you about what has happened. You have been in office 329 days we heard today you are stonewalling the chairmans investigations and refusing to answer multiple colleagues and responsiveide documents to the foia request. So let me ask you some simple questions in the process of certification of 737 max did bowing lie to the faa . And with those fragmented information. So i basically lied to the regulators and knowingly. What have you been doing if not figuring out if they lied or what they lied about . And to make that process more effective. And that was notrt provided. And that is a foundation for the certification process. And i would say there were mistakes made yes. In washington that passive voice is a classic tell and mistakes were made because there is no actor and that phrase mistakes were made who made the mistakes and a why . Spent the manufacturer made mistakes the faa made mistakes in the oversight. What were the mistakes and what were they . The full implications were not understand on understood as the changes were made. Has anybody at faa been fired . There have been changes in leadership in various areas. Nobody has been fired over this particular matter up to this point. Anybody been disciplined . Not specifically. No. Unknown somebodys made unspecified mistakes that there have been no repercussions. Is that right quick. , please tell us the repercussions. We havepe significant reforms and we are standing up with the robust Safety Systems to be more effective in the future. Is there a systemic problem of agency capture at the faa. I remember us having this c conversation, senator. And i believe it is agency capture but i do believe when you have very capable subject Matter Experts to be focused on their checklist they hold themselves accountable and they dont see the whole picture thats why as leaders to the integrated approach with the manufacturer. And that we are responsible for overseeing. You said safety is a journey not a destination. 346 souls lost the 237 max that crashed safety was all about arriving at their destination they should have arrived at the destination. Had bowing not covered up serious safety concerns number one and had the faa done its job to make sure it was not put in the field without pilots being appropriately trained. The concern this committee has of any of the urgency its very easy to go into an agency and you yourself get captured by the agency. You understand you do not work for the airlines are bowing before the American People. And it express on expects transparency and expects that when we asked the question specifically aboutut malfeasance that cost the lives of 346 people that you will be forthcoming to answer those questions. I hope thats the conduct we see going forward. Thank you senator cruise. In the wake of the two tragic crashes in ethiopia our sympathies are with the victims families and thank you for being here today. And with those comments that have already been made and other information as we conduct oversight i hope you hear loud and clear how critical that is to the work that we do. One of the major Lessons Learned is a thorough consideration of factor should be a more fundamental component to test new aircraft as avionics becomes more complex. To bolster the human factor expertise. And in addition and on these issues and with aircraft evaluation as an earlier more integrated point in the process allows us to take a more holistic view and then as independently as they have been in the past. Is more than and particular machine. Thats one of the things we learned there were gaps in training as well. It seems like a serious issue to be addressed. To make sure the personnel receive the training they want to adapt that is constantly adopting new technologies and in line with that discussion is the faa pursuing as well as recruit tire personnel a great question the Aviation Safety Organization has a ten year workforce plan and we are in the process of continually reviewing our needs and our uresponse to the special Committee Report. Talk about Human Factors but also system engineers and Software Engineers and Data Scientist so we can stay ahead of new technologies as they are introduced. Your testimony discusses the faa plan to adopt a more holistic approach when it comes to certification consistent with recommendations with that certification process this has better coordination how it is the faa plan to improve coordination such as the Aircraft Certification Service responsible fores different aspects . Its a great question and we have recently initiated a tiprogram to train our aviation specters on inspectors on the processes of the certification actual use to participate more fully in all phases of that process. In addition to that we are standing up a project management function to take ntthe these programs and then sometimes you have personnel changes when it be there throughout the whole five to seven years from beginning to end those two functions should improve the coordination between us to parts of the agencys. Can you talk to how adopt that Safety Management would be the oversight certification process . Sms has many benefits the most important step we can take to improve aircraft certification with that safety responsibility where it belongs to promote transparency and reporting on safety issues to refocus accountability for product safety and allows to oversee the system in the process and reinforces sharing of data in a dynamic process between the agency. Urer and it greatly improves the regulators ability before the compliance we have to wait for that throughout the process. And upon the conclusion of senator sinema pending any other senators appearances we will move to the second panel. Thank you mr. Chairman. Administrator Many Airlines have passengers to wear masks but reports are showing they are noncompliant. The cdc is a vital tool for Public Health particularly when physical distancing is not possible. The faa needs to do more to make sure they are mitigating this virusng right now there are no federal requirements why isnt the faa managing and what more can we do to make sure they are Wearing Masks . Thank you senator we have been working as the Aviation Safety Authority to provide expertise to the Public Health authorities. And we believe we have made those standards available to the airlines and stakeholders and others. And i have told them veryin specifically that i expect for them to abide by and enforce the standards including to wear face coverings on commercialda aircraf aircraft. We will continue to do that in recent days enforcement on part of the airlines and we will monitors that situation using their Safety Systems to make sure they are following through. Does the faa plan to mandate masks on flights . It sounds like you are recommending it but that there is no enforcement mechanism. We do not plan to provide enforcement specifically on that issue. However we are reviewing safety programs to make sure they are following through. On a related topic, to create a contactkn tracing mechanism during cover 19 and giving your position to address those covid related issues can we detail any ongoing effort to address this issue . We have been involved in Contact Tracing work since the very early days dating back to january frankly and we are using our expertise to ask on to act as a facilitator between the airlines and Public Health authorities. Airports in arizona including phoenix, tucson, they asked for more dispute of the construction of the airport infrastructure, earlier this week the introduced legislation the delivery of infrastructure apple, for more completion of airport construction process. For airport improvement to incentivizec faster airport. Have you had a chance to interview the legislation and expedite these projects . Thank you, senator, im familiar with the proposal, i have not actually seen the legislative text but from what i understand it is consistent with the need to streamline and facilitate infrastructure projects, as i understand it it is something we will support the departmentct will support. Thank you, i yield back my time. Thank you very much and now pursuant to the statement made, we will move to the next panel, administrator, thank you very much for your presentation today and we certainly look forward to following up with you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Let me go ahead before we excuse you, we will have questions for the record as im sure you are familiar upon we see we ask you to submit your written answers to the committee as soon as possible and im sure well do that, at this point k ank you and his staff will assist in coming to the microphone, we will begin the second panel in the boat is occurring and again, we will pass the gavel around and try to accommodate senators and the schedule. If we are ready, our next panel is mr. Michael, as we said earlier father of samuel rose who tragically died on the Ethiopian Airlines flight 302, thank you for your presence today and you have a written statement which will be submitted in its entirety to and we ask you to summarize your testimony. You are recognized. Thank you, chairman, members of this committee, chairman and Ranking Member cantwell we appreciate your proposal which is an improvement. I will have some ideas for me and the families and how it can be further approved. The et 302 families are indebted to you Ranking Member for dedicating time and effort to learning about our families, the facts and solutions so there is not a thirdme crash. Samuels 26 birthday would be in less than 22 weeks, i speak for my family, i dont speakbe for e other et 302 families. The airplane crashed into the seat killing all 89 passengers, boeing 737 max eight was only three months old. After an angle the sensor field in the pilot thought we now know of the system for 13 minutes before the crash. Faafa did not ground the plane, boeing put out a statement saying it is as safe as any airplane it is overflown in the sky. It was not. March 10 my daughter sammy was traveling on her First International trip for her employer, she flew from dallas to ethiopia with a layover, after she arrived she text us, she landed, another two hours to where she was going preaching never made it. She aborted the max around 830 local time, that aircraft is only about four months old. Again the angle of the tax sensors failed in that repeatedly engaged in pushing the nos down to the ground, sammy experienced six minutes of roller coaster tear, so to the others on the plane, the plane plowed into an ethiopian farm field, buried itself dozens of feet into the ground. When my family and i visited the crash site we saw the plane and the passengers had broken into small pieces and were mixed fuel. Er with the jette the first crash should not i hae happened, the second crash is inexcusable. Between the crashes december 18 december 3, 2018, we know faa had did the internal Risk Assessment protecting 15 more crashes in the max. In the lifetime in the live show dated december 18 the 2018 boeing was reassuringg faa that they can handle thees failures. They could respond immediately, react immediately, fix it immediately. Faa, we now know secretly has boeing for software fix and tenmonth that keeps a plane going. The crash happened before ten months was up, they gambled, we lost. So the max wasor a plane develod in the obama era but certified march 2017, it was a deadly aircraft with ill fitting engines bolted to a 15yearold fuselage, rather than fixing the design of the aircraft boeing took the cheap way out using glitchy software that relied upon input from a single sensor to push the nos of the plane down in certain situations. This was a pattern at boeing in 2013 they minimizeou and cast to faa saying it was an extension of the speed trams system, everything im seeing has all been found in reports. And those are linked to my testimony. 2016 they drastically strengthen the mcas infield to designate as a critical system, that means something, safety critical system. We now know that the chief boeing test highlight tricking saa to the Pilot Training in 2017 other boeing employees said the airplane is designed by clowns who were supervised byin monkeys. In 2018 another employee wrote i still havent been forgiven by god for covering up what i did last year. Boeing engineers have told us, the families that the faa industry has allowed undue influence for security. Ththe prior system resistant une influence because faa appointed, removed and supervised boeing engineers as well as certification duties. Now faa allows boeing to sell certified and they are cut off from faa technicalti specialisty reporting only boeing managers the profit and timeline pressures can overwhelm the Safety Culture, the prior system resistant undue influence, the Current Practice invites undue influence. Last october a committee of aviation regulators the joint Authority Technical review of critical of faa in the max, the report also found the undue influence and found many problems of the faa reducing direct involvement with critical Safety Systems. That is what the International Report found, too much reducing with critical Safety Systems. They determine the faa engineering staff overseeing boeing were too few, too unqualified to do so, faa has never responded to that report. The European Agency and transport canada told faa they will independently validate rather than differing as they have to faa. The faa core vision appears to be the direct involvement in push paper and watch powerpoint presentation. The agency seems comfortable to be one said, dogs watching tv. I expect better, so to the et 302 families and the public. My time is up, im happy to spell out the legislative changes and any questionandanswer session, thank you for allowing me. There are not any words that we can say. In my Opening Statement i mentioned several frustrations that i have with information request, your written testimony discusses this also, can you describe the current status of your request . Our request for further improvement, we appreciate the movement so far in the legislation and i request further delegation on a substantive level, we appreciate the faa under your bill would appoint, remove and have drugve communication with the boeing engineers responsible for certification. Ov delegation with the report found the agency wants to reduce direct involvement certification to pushin paper. Instead the Congress Must require that faa do its job was safety Critical Systems that they retain and not delegate authority over safety Critical Systems, not onlyth those determine hazardous and catastrophic but alsode major. We see that boeing tried to fit the in cast into the major category which is not as bad as a catastrophic so it could minimize involvement in many things in push profit. Safety Critical Systems is somethingny that faa should maintain and we should have a ready team to look over what the blue Team Manufacturer engineers are doing. Its a lifetime limit for certificates that the max was certified the year was born 1967, and 53 and that family is 53, the trying to cram new engines and old lodge and putting new software on all computers that dont talk to each other and at some point you gonna innovate and make a new claim. Thats before 50 years, maybe 25 years but at some point you make a new plane and you make a 21st century aircraft and from boeings perspective the chinese dont catch up like the japanese did with florida and gm in the 70s. Next faa certification as weve seen is flawed, it is not very good in many cases, it should not equal immunity. Boeing apologizes and said they are very sorry, we will do better but within court they put claims and say we dont have to pay anything because b faa certified and that makes us a medium. Thatat is wrong in the faa and other cases have supported that position. I dont like it, thats a change in legislation could should make thatas clear. Lastly faa and ntsb secrecy must end, any excuse, you hear the words that we know words and actions are different, any excuse to not respond were too busy or when they do that is confidential and proprietary information and you see it when they send documents, they get out the rubberstamp and everything says confidential and privilege even if its a dinner menu. Then they say export control, and then foriv mcs be which is blocking the disclosure of thements happened between crashers and they say in next 13 covers the dinner menu. So at some point, they are going to use those privilege and confidential excuses as probably and theres no penalty for abusing it. Congress has to step in and rebalance a public interest. Those are what i would say. Thank you for your testimony and i know you had no intention of becoming an expert in the subject matter, but we appreciate your insight. Senator cantwell. Thank you, mr. Chairman and thank you for being here, and your wife as well, my condolences to you and the families who have been impacted in my thanks for your continued oversight and communication on these issues because as ive said ive seen with the families that they have made an impact on what weve been able to do was safety and im sure you will have the same impact. Nonetheless a very painful experience to continue to focus on thisav issue. I thank you. I wanted to go over a couple of things about your testimony to ask for the details on. I agree we need the faa to remain in the driver seat when it comes to the certification process, thats what the legislation does, making sure you have oversight in the process in a supervisory role in owning the system. Thats what chairman and i have agreed to in the legislation. I was very surprised that faa ministries are not fully supporting the concept today. Do you have any comments on th that. Weve seen a consistent set of reports . From faa including a 2017 air transformation report, that is full of ands i refer to in my written testimony is full of Management Consulting baloney about goals and aspiration but what it boils down to is a dedicated internal that appears from the outside dedicated internal process that they will withdraw from the direct involvement in certification and that includes appointing and removing which is certification duties. He would be deeply embedded, and to see how the administrator was to the mere fact, why dont you take a look at these folks that are pointingg the janitor, they approve, he can remove if they screw up because we know people screw up when you make an appointment and you wish you had not you do have supervision because they have been in the oda system, when you have boeing opponents and their only on the boeing side with the Safety Culture can get overwhelmed by the profit and timeline pressures and you have no one to theou have to respond boeing manager and you dont have the faa because you dont know who theyv are. In the boeing Aviation Office has 27 engineers that are supposedly overseeing 1500 boeing engineers and they can look at reams of paper and put rubberstamps to them. So there is delegation that has been around a long time but we have to rebalance it in the way your bill has stated. I was not surprised. Thank you for that. I agree with you and thank you for bringing up those numbers as it relates to the Oversight Office itself. Clearly our bill creates a new office, and oversight of saying exactly the right level of expertise and Technology Oversight that is required and hopefully that will be fixed, its very frustrating to hear the administrator now embraces things and is very hard for us we can pass along and we will stay on top of the faa, i can guarantee that. We will get the right workforce there. You mentioned the Red Team Blue team which comes up in a couple of different ways. The idea of holistic approach, im interested because what you said about the ntsb. You think the ntsb and nasa bigger role in the upfront part of the certification process when the Type Certificate is being considered in these ideas or new technologies being considered. Do you think outside groups like that of the front end of the process can better identify risks . I think its possible, im going to draw on javier who lost a sister in the et 302 crash and he said javier is an aerospace engineer, he submitted testimony today and he said getting a new aircraft design and developed in certified is a Major National event. It takes it is something hes hall hands on deck and he supported having a multiagency involvement at the beginning and in this case we have a global duopoly and in our case we have boeing, its a publicprivate partnership, along the lines i understand javier has supported given his deep knowledge at mit in aerospace engineering. I would tend to defer and agree. I see my time is expired. Tell us again the name of the author of the paper. Javier d lewis. All right. Do you have his paperwork with you today . I know he submitted i can provide to the committee and i think it was submitted to staff. So we already have it . Without objection on be placed in the record. There are no other members, senator markey we are told you are recognized. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Do you have a copy of the document that you refer to . That was not predictive but mention the 15 aircraft accidents that might occur. I think my staff has access to it and we will get it to you mr. Chairman. Lets put that inn the recor. Mr. Chairman if i can help on that, when i submitteded my written testimony. It was included in the as well if my exhibits were included. Thank you and mr. Markey you are recognized pgh thank you, mr. Chairman very much. I want to thank michael for being here today and for your tirelessmo work to put a spotlit on this inexcusable tragedy and wothe need to reform our broken aviation certification system and offer my condolences to you for the loss of your brilliant unaccomplished daughter, it was an unfortunate tragedy here that has taken from you but i admire so much what you and your wife have done, make sure you focus on this issue to guarantee that there isan accountability. In the faa made accountable. I thank you so much because number again should we see and suffer what you suffer. We affirm boeings legal responsibility for the defective 737 max, now we need to guarantee that boeing cannot block your familys legal claims in court so can you speak further to boeings unacceptable attempts of accountability and how can Congress Help you hold this Company Responsible . Theres 156 others that died in the crash and a lot of other families have been very active countries. N canada, europe, the french german and africa, ethiopia, kenya. Many families havepe their own individual hurts with the trying to recover from. I am a bit uncomfortable just having the focus on me but were in the u. S. And under covid19 washington. But theres others that are doing a lot. But from our perspective we see a dichotomy between public actions and words and private behavior where you have boeing repeatedly told the camera that there very sorry in the new ceo who was around during the whole era of certification made the decision against the board of directors against developing a new plane and extracting new value of 737 family. They apologize and republicans they were sorry were making changes and were working diligently to make everything right. And then you look at the documents and they say, we dont have to pay anything because faa certified it and that means the family does not have their own claims. It is not right and they know it and thats why they did not say in public, they said in private. From your perspective what should everyone watching this hearing know about the familys in the accountability that you want on boeing on this issue . Boeing has a responsibility to produce safe planes. They lost it sway with chasing profit and value engineering and getting rid of engineers and talent overt the time, with profit and delivering it to shareholder stock buybacks and executives. We need to have is a National Champion company for the u. S. They have duties to america, passengers, duties to us and they couldve made a great 21st century play, they did not, the faa has to do its job and not be a paper pushing agency and not dogs watching tv, and concerned that the Safety Management system which sound like a decent idea is not directly on point that we will fix the fact that the faa is not directly involved in certification and its more paper to push and when you have a company that is dedicated to misleading and hiding that they will mislead and hide it when youre not onis site. Thats what i think. When you talk to the boeing officials, if you have talked to them, or if your lawyers have talked to them, how would you characterize your response. We dont talk that much because were allul representatives. I saw a lot of time boeing would reap apologist to cameras about what happened but only once shamed did he actually turned to the families and say heap was sorry and calhoun has not talked to us but they have not apologize to family, theyve only apologized to cameras. But we havent talked to many boeing executives. What does that tell you the unwilling to apologize to the families . Its always a concern that is just a pr management issue. Meaning. Is not real. Speak to cameras but not families, being just a Public Statement that satisfies the minimum requirement that they say they are sorry but they dont want to speak with the families themselves in order to have an accountability. Ethiopian airlines sent all the families a letter of sorrow and apology early on. Ethiopian airlines has done a lot of other things wrong, boeing did not do it they couldve. And when i need to apologize to my wife i dont do it to the camera or somebody else, do it to her and thats how you do it in human society. Absolutely they have been irresponsible there clearly engaged in a systematic coverup in my job will be to help you to make sure every single piece of information is made available publicly. So that we guarantee that the spotlight is so bright that we will not have to oversee a hearing like this be conducted but not until we have collected all of that information, not until boeing is made accountable in court and will we in fact no that we have done our job for you and all of the families, this is the moment we thank you here today in order to make sure that the voices of the families are heard. Thank you so much for your willingness to do this. Thank you. Mr. Blumenthal. Thank you, senator, thank you for being here today and on so many other occasions, lending your voice and faith to reform that. Not just a memory of your daughter but to save over their lives into you and everybody else that has lost the old ones, this committee has obligation condolences but to put our action where our mouth is. And when you adopt reforms that will prevent these tragedies in the future. You are here to hear administrator dixon and im going to go to your testimony on the rebalance of delegation. You may have heard my question about the faa taking back the delegation at the very least involvement of critical Safety Systems, were you satisfied with the answer that he gave . No, no there seem to be an unwillingness to do so and it seems wrong, maybe we got to have the red Team Involved with the systems that are deemed major, hazardous and catastrophic if they go bad. We cannot rely on the internal checks and balances of the manufacture depending on what ceo or boeing manager is an charger whose onduty at the time. On the issue of lifetime limits for Type Certificates. You said during a private conversation that the hoping new system and just slide it through for certification, we satisfied with the answer that he gave me when i asked about limits on the lifetime of certificates. No there needs to be a lifetime, they need to figure out a lifetime limit and its more than the mcas on the system, theres a lot involved because they did not have an alert system like those that were required in the aircraft since 1982, the crew alert system which has red, yellow and green light all in one place that you can prioritize things that may not be going wrong. In this case because the max was unattended, they have shakers and a pullup and going too fast and going to slow and he described in his testimony before the house where he had a hard time and hes trying to describe as a runaway. The reason they had the rules from 1982 which is when the max was 25 years old, 28 years later, they dont have it, because they grandfather in an old test with new safety regulations come into effect, the new aircraft was a method of securing it. The runner control and parts of the plane got grandfathered in pre28 years ago, maybe that wouldve made the difference in what it wouldve paid attention to in all kinds of conflicting alerts. And i think on the other issue that are in your testimony on faa certification in effect equal immunity from boeing the culture of secrecy that we see, i think you would agree his answers were totally unsatisfactory. The answers has been on secrecy, transparent we will be transparent. We heard as family since the beginning, we havent gotten one document. Neither have we. We can respond to my questions. , i pledge to you and i think others in the committee will join me that the bill is now pending can be strengthened and improved, i offered one to the Ranking Member and chairman has offered another, there is is very commendable in the progress that it reflects, im going to be offering amendments to mine and theres in the markup, i hope there will be one that would in effect require a takeback in delegation and the critical Safety Systems requiring more transparency and require preemption so families have their day in court so the courthouse doors are open to them in spite of faa certification and require that other stronger reforms be adopted. I think your testimony and your work on highlighting how the faa has become a captive of the industry, how its been in effect as a dog watching tv, how it has enabled industry to put profits ahead of safety, all of those points that you made in all the work that you have done i hope will have an impact on this committee and what is needed is really radical, farreaching reform, the public demands it in the industry has reached a a crossroads, a real turning point in a has choices to make but i think congress can no longer leave those choices exclusively to the industry. I think voluntary compliance, delegated certification are going to be a thing of the plastic and i want to thank you for being a whistleblower and a watchdog which is what we need, we need and affect the system and institutional watchdog, not a lapdog. Thank you very much to you and your family for all the work that you have done. Thank you. Thank you senatorou blumen blumenthal, i want to follow up on a couple off things. I have to run and vote in a minute so if you see me out they will be holding it. I did want to ask, we also introduced a bill with senator murray and about the standards that we would like to see on international basis and you mention captain a couple of times and i wondered if you givenn any thought to the larger issue of how do we make sure the pilot doesnt need the faa system improve but want pilot standards to be there and if you gave any thought about that . Yeah sure, Aviation System is inherently global, the boeing planes are sold everywhere, families are writing everywhere and it used to be faa rules were Gold Standard but certainly how do you have to the extent that we improve here, how do you rightly have an extraterritorial reach to what we do. Certainly the Human Factors approach in the human factor, it is all about not excessive reliance on the human which is solvable to be h the last chance before as one set of smoking hole because you need the machine to be heartened and redundancy and i will make five mistakes before go to bed tonight. Anda pilots make mistakes too, their bad days you cannot rely on us, you have to have the machine too. I guess im in favor of doing it the best that we can have an International Reach for the flight aviation Safety Systems in ethiopia and kenya and i think our kenyan and ethiopian families will agree, its not that great. So generally id be supportive. Thank you, mr. Chair i have to run. Thank you senator cantwell and thank you all. If there are no other questions then we will move to the closing on the hearing record will remain open for two weeks during this time senators are asked to submit any questions for the record. On receipt each witness iss requested to submit written answers to the committee as soon as possible. Thank you to both of our witnesses and particularly to you b, we very much appreciate your insight and there is no way to express our condolences adequately. Without the hearing is adjourn adjourned. [silence] [silence] binge watch book tv the summer every saturday evening at 8 00 p. M. Eastern settle in and watch hours of your favorite authors, saturday were featuring New York Times bestselling author, author of a dozen books including once in a great city, the destroying story, barack obama and his story in the most recent and Good American family, watch saturday june 2, 7000 future poets of prizewinning author and historian david mccullough, binge watch book tv all summer on cspan2. What we see is a revolutionary king, he starts talking about using nonviolence as early as 1965 after loss angels rebellion 1965 to paralyze cities to leverage nonviolent civil disobedience to transform american democracy. Malcolm x called for the same thing and malcolm criticize how washington but if he wanted to display of civil disobedience, that would be muscular enough to end the racial status quo in the United States of america. University of texas the neil joseph on his book the sword in the shield about activism and converging ideology and Martin Luther king jr. And the importance of the thinking on the fight for civil rights in america. Q a, sunday night at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan. Next to look at scams, profiteering during the pandemic. Victims of disinformation campaigns and legislators discuss the challenges they are facing. Hosted by George Washington University Institute for data, democracy and politics on tuesday. This is one hour and ten minutes. Welcome to our continuing conversation about the big social media platform in response to the disinformation campaigns around the covid19 pandemic, very serious situation where lives are literally in the balance. Im the director of the George Washington University School of public affairs