Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth In Depth With Doris Kearns Goodwin 20240712

Count 1191 books in. On Abraham Lincoln. More than john Kennedy Franklin roosevelt and Robert Kennedy combined. Guest i knew i wanted to live with him and i had to have a leap of faith that i could find something that would be my own way into it but the last one on Eleanor Franklin took six years longer than world war ii so i knew this would be a fundamental. He turned out to be the best companion i could imagine. Host how did you begin the process class guest at first i read. I hope its beginning to do a book about marriage the way ive done with eleanor and franklin but i realized they couldnt hold the public side of the story the way eleanor did. I realized he spent more time with the members of his than with mary. He was married to them more protected tense time theyd wait for news from the battlefield and go to the front of relax at night. These are the guys im interested in when it turned out theyd been as rivals beforehand that i finally realized that got my story. Host book came out by burton hendrix on lincolns war cabinet. Its different from a look. Whats different about what can this one . Guest he is secondary sources and there was a lot of good stuff in them. Its a good writer but he had one chapter on seward and one chapter on stanton. Mine is a narrative that goes to the beginning to the end. Jose uber the number of books that include primary sources and youre dealing with 19 figures as opposed to 20th century figures. Guest i have been so lucky at even the roosevelt time there were three dozen people who knew him in a family and Lyndon Johnson was able to talk to that giant of a man. How am i going to go back to period right cant cant talk to anyone but it turns out because they kept diaries and wrote letters and not time it was an intimate source. Historians 200 years and now well never know as much about us as we are able to know about these characters and 19th century or even stewarts family is secretary of state 5000 letters they wrote. I love reading letters feel like you are right over their shoulder. Host first of all use Abraham Lincoln William Henry seward and edward base were members of restless generation behind 18th century world. Thousands of miles separate the birth laces of virginia new york New Hampshire and kentucky are nonetheless social and economic forces shaped their past and also marked the number of similarities. How so . Was so interesting of members of that generation the American Experience when democracy was still new so heres the next generation coming along. Policies are a passion for people so its not surprising these characters and their political lives. When they would give a talk or there would be a debate 10,000 people might come and people would listen to them talk now would you would imagine today. Policies back then were what are for us today so thats what shaped all of them. They wanted to become lawyers so they could become politicians so they could participate in the public life of our country because thats where the passion was. Host why did he want to become a running mate, Abraham Lincoln . Guest partly because once they got there in the convention decided it was Abraham Lincoln and looking for balance they probably knew none of these guys would be willing to accept the vice presidency. The Vice President said was very powerful in those days so i can imagine they would wait and want to beat him next time around. Host who is William Seward . Guest he reminded me of churchill pretty good drink and smoke in the ad parties in the 18 50s where there is so much wind that even southerners would feel good about the northerners and he was the one who ever would he thought would be the nominee. The most celebrated name. So many people came to his house waiting for the news that he had been nominated the champagne had an uncorked preview is your cover play disappointed and yet when lincoln appointed secretary of state lincoln would be a mere figurehead but in the end he and lincoln became great friends once he realized lincoln was who lincoln was a special character and their friendship was one of the most prized. Salmon chase was a different kind of character because he didnt drink him he didnt smoke. He would practice and never quite deliver these had kept a diary from the time he was 20 years old and he was a very selfrighteous character. He had been gratis an abolitionist so he was a marble person for black equality. Even lincoln made him secretary of the treasury he kept running against lincoln and tried to maneuver against him and when the second time around. Host judge edward bates. He guest bates was an elder statesman from missouri and people thought he could be president because he was more conservative and came from a border state that he was a young man who is interested in politics like the rest of them but then he got married to this woman that he loves so much that he couldnt bear being away from her. When he was on his way to congress he was saying why did i why am i doing this . He wasnt away from her very long. They had 17 children. It shows a family life can affect public life. 19th century when men wrote about history they barely mentioned they had a wife or family but you can see in the 20s cases even chase has a beautiful daughter. He lost three young wives at 22, 23 and 30 i think and his wife becomes his campaign manager. She dies in poverty so i love the stories of the wives and husbands. Host 17 children how many live to adulthood . Guest nine looked into adulthood. Host youd dedicate this book to your husband kind old more than i can stress to my husband robert goodwin. He read and edited every single page for that argue with him good would it do argue about . Sometimes who would argue about whether lincoln was doing the right thing produced a huge lincoln fan. It was fantastic. He studied lincoln all the time. We are both writers and we work at home. He is in one section of the house and i was another section that it was fantastic to have someone like that reading every page. Host he thought deeply about lincoln as anyone. Did he inspire you to do this book or did you come up with the idea . Guess who i came up with the ibm want to get into it and he started writing about lincoln my husband was a speechwriter for john kennedy and Lyndon Johnson. He understands the value of words in public life. Nobody he felt more comfortable with than lincolns brilliance as awards and in the speaker. Host he came up with a tidal . Guest the title was a problem. For a while we wanted to call it master among men but given he was a great emancipator seem like that might be a worrisome word. For a while we were going to go with the great unifier or american classic and this has been a working title from the beginning. We went back to a working title team of rivals which is what its about. Host at the next three hours on cspan2s booktv in depth Doris Kearns Goodwin taking calls but if you live in eastern eastern and central timezones a number call is 202 7370001. You can email us if you have questions at booktv at cspan. Org. In your last conversation with Lyndon Johnson be talked about Abraham Lincoln. Guess who interestingly. He was reading sandberg spider family can couldnt quite bring him to life and he said if he couldnt bring lincoln to life in his mind no one was going to remember him. He was so hot in those clusters by weather history would remember him. I now realize more than i did when i was 25 years old what a privilege it was to have spent so many hours with this amazing line of a man. He had done so much in civil rights and felt in the end korea had been destroyed by the war in vietnam. I had those hours with him and it was extraordinary. I think is what propelled me to want to understand the man behind a public figure. Host when was this photograph taken . Guest this is when i was selected as the white house fellow. That false hair in the back of my head. That was at the celebration when the white house was announced. What happened worriedly was i didnt answer president johnson when we were selected but as a graduate student at harvard when we were selected during the vietnam war movement. Written in article which came out after the award of the white house fellow. I was sure he was taking out the program but surprisingly he said bring her down here for year and if i can win her over no one can. I started helping him on his memoirs. Host in the book Lyndon Johnson and the American Dream, bull he responded i know what goes on up there and make cant dance like im dancing with you right now. Guess who he was so big and he had this habit of standing closer to human beings and normally people stand separated so i felt like i was in his when i was talking to me when i danced with tick me up from the floor and take me around the room. So lets get some phonecalls. First up oberlin ohio, good morning. Caller good morning. I just purchased the book two days ago. My question is lincolns ability to reach out to political rivals and the corporate them into a larger scheme. Would you comment on the possibility of that happening now. A great question. I think it would a much harder now. Now we have this Permanent Campaign so the minute the president is elected is thinking of the second term and lincoln today most president s have just had a single term so they were not so obsessed about winning. Today they are worried about getting a platform for their rival that can be used against them in the following four years with the other thing is that these guys were all rivals of one another not just of lincoln. They said terrible things about one another. Unmitigated scoundrel stanton talking to postmaster player. They were good each others offices. Can you imagine what would have happened if we hear on the news these guys from the cabinet saying these things about each other . I wish it were possible because what it meant was he about the different aspects of the Republican Party moderate conservatives liberals together in the same 10 so is easier to deal with them than if they were outside. Host this morning in the Washington Post and the review the book they set up the comparable to george w. Bush listing john mccain as defense secretary. Guest exactly knowing he was given a plaque from the first time around. It might have been a great thing. If you have people who are going to oppose you and debate you inside your cabinet then maybe you hone your skills and a rifle to deal with the country. He do well for country dont worry about the next election he will probably come to you. Host kansas city missouri, you are next. Caller thank you very much for taking my call. I was wondering if there was any historical document about how lincoln dealt with some of the savagery that happened as a byproduct of the civil war from the southerners like the quantrills raiders and things like that who did a lot of butchery. Did lincoln do anything of to try to stop it and how was his feelings about those kinds of rivalries . Guest i think its one of the things that was hard for lincoln as it should have been. Some point they decided in the north the only way the work could finally be the war could be won if indeed the southern capacity could make war and it meant destroying the roads destroying the crops and being sold to make money and i suspect from what we see from lincolns conversations of people as much as he knew that was a terrible byproduct of war he figured unless a southern capacity to make war was destroyed it would keep going on and on an even more people would die. Host what role did you have been writing and working on this book with Lyndon Johnson and the Vantage Point . I was one of various people helped him on his memoirs in particular worked on the civil rights and his relationship with congress which is the best part of Lyndon Johnson by went down to the ranch and stayed with him at the ranch sometime stayed in austin while i was at harvard. It was to listen to him recollect it is a great storyteller per day is to listen for hours as he would tell me doris is not just the Vantage Point that stories about his childhood. Miserably going to write a trilogy starting with his presidency going back to the senate and his childhood are a lot of our conversations over his whole life. The story was so fantastically colorful even though half of them were true. Host how much could you believe . Guest thats why he liked me there. I like listening to his tall tales. Host i wonder how much Doris Kearns Goodwin. The Vantage Point felt upon its publication to be lifted a presence of nearly one of a dozen people waited in the preparation of Research Writing and editing this book . Guest apsley now. There were far more people working on mmr than i was. Nixon more time doing it fulltime for there was just doing a parttime and only worked on those two chapters that but all that meant was they could talk to me and put down what you said and put it in some form. I thought that was more than enough recommendation for what i had done. That quote from Lyndon Johnson. For millions of americans i was still illegitimate. A man with no president ial coverings that were tendered to the throne and then there was my home, the home of the murder. Guest johnson always spoken somewhat graphic language. You can imagine what he thought it was was like to know that he loved john kennedy so much and if it has something to do with his fascination and then the murder of the murder. He said what was amazing even with all of that pressure on him he achieved an extraordinary transition in the next year 1965 was one of the great years in American History. If he had not gotten into vietnam he would have been murder but its a great present for next fall from ann arbor michigan on booktv, good place. Caller is this Doris Kearns Goodwin . Guest which surely is. Caller you are my hero. It dropped out of school and then i went back and i started studying history and i went back to a Community College and the more it learned about it the more it really loved it. What gets me is how historians can look at something and differ in their interpretation. You get them in the room and they dont agree but i want to ask you about how exactly do historians go about gathering evidence and one thing that always struck me about president lincoln this is just a laymans observation is east lake he has the ability to look outside of himself and to see how other people saw him. I always kind of wondered about that and then lastly what about what you hear in the news about plagiarism and stuff like that and i will hang up and god bless you and thank you. Guest thank you so much. To answer your link in question europes way right his ability to look at himself from the outside in it stretched from this enormous continent he had inside himself and a remarkable sense of humor. Anyone who is funny and has a sense of humor part of it is the ability to laugh at oneself but i think that was a great quality in him. What happens with historians is to go back and be like at many sources as we can which means using diaries in the letters and then you try to figure out yourself different conflicting ideas of what somebody did. You have to to truly understand. How do we think he responded and how we didnt respond in terms of your last question is a complicated process putting together huge book like this or any of her books. Theres usually thousands of footnotes lots of different sources and sometimes we can happen is happened to me as well is even though i had given absolute credit to the person for whom i had taken from the passage to not put the correct bookmark in the right place i credited her and what i found out about it i myself said she was right and i corrected it in the next edition and moved on. Its part of the process which is a complicated one in doing historical work that is worth every bit to hopefully give the reader making the people come alive. Host the what was the biggest revelation . The biggest lesson was, i had knowledge that the time and i corrected it read when it became public three years ago i acknowledge to begin. Theres nothing you can do to change the path other than to make sure for example in this lincoln book everything is fine. What can you do other than to do that . Host there are 100 plus pages of footnotes and bibliography . The reason for that would have been sure if david hadnt happened because there are so many primary sources there something about the lincoln world. They are very Generous Group of scholars to people whove studied lincoln all their lives so when youve done the things he wanted to put in the footnotes the sources they could look at themselves. Its really a sharing process. I think the lincoln scholars would be happy and hopefully some young scholar will say yes i founded hosea wrote in an essay in Time Magazine after was revealed in 2002 that a tight you about your own fallibility. Guest absolutely. I would like to believe in most of my books what ive been able to do is to never have a bias and not to be mean for them but you also want to make sure you credited every source fully and appropriately done learned about that and you make sure to do it right. Host the let me ask you about the fitzgeralds and the kennedys. Its a new document. Guest what happened was it turned out Teddy Kennedy gave me access to 150 cartons in the attic in hyannis port for over 50 years and it turns out they had saved every letter they wrote to one another check stubs movie cards letters from the family. Was really away into the Kennedy Family that i would have had without those so was worth spending another couple years. Thats what mills 10 years. Host you write in the book units could have been a politician in the family. Guest theres no question about that. Its interesting there were three kids of the top of the family joe jr. Jack and kathleen and they were considered the golden trio. Everything for them and there was the daughter rosemary and they came units. Eunice was the person to take care of everybody else in the family and the closest one to rosemary. She had intensity, she had drive and in some ways she was the leader of that Younger Group of generations of the kennedys. They often said that she would have been a boy she would have been the one to run for office much more outgoing than jack kennedy but it wasnt the time and age. She is in bed remarkable things with the Special Olympics and her commitment to rent mental retardation as a result. She went over to europe with her father and fell in love with duke harding 10 the duke of devonshire and she married him even though he was protestant and fell in love yet again with another protestant after he died in the war. She was beautiful and feisty and her own life apart from the kennedys most of the other family members did. In the book and im trying to find quotes and youll probably say it better than i can say at the right about how joe senior came down and told his family on the death of joe jr. Guest was a blow for joe senior that was never to be restart but i think he was forever altered by that. Jr. Was the one that they thought that the president of the United States much more socially these than when he was younger much more handsome if you could imagine that and all that familys hope was put on him for doing joe senior found out hed been killed in a plane crash in world war ii i dont think people thought he would survive. Rose had her love with god and somehow joe jr. Was with god and she would do with them someday but joe senior wasnt so sure about that. It was like a break in the family. Host the what did the family members tell you that happened . Guest i think what rose said, somebody came to the door to tell them and there was a sense of not wanting to believe it which must be churro for anybody who hears about a son or daughter being killed in the military but you know the minute somebody comes in what they are about to tell you. They finally separated and tried to make the best of it. What happened a lot of joe jr. s friends and colleagues and people had been in the military with him wrote letters to her told her how great he was. That gave her solace i suspect. Host the next call comes from kc. Caller through my never says im going to ask two or three questions. Guest dont be nervous. Host take it one of the time. Caller caller number when you said you try to write these books and by the way even though you were accused of some things every time youre on i want to. I think you have given credit to president johnson. Everybody thinks kennedy is all of these things to help poor and minority but it was actually president johnson who doesnt get the credit. Going back to lincoln i dont understand, you said you try to write these biographies so lincoln and torched the United States content constitution more than any other president history. Habeas corpus locking up newspaper writers jailing people who spoke out and im talking about people in the north, not in the south. I havent read your book. You do include that . Did you include the fact that he violated the United States constitution that he should have been under . If george bush did that now people would be calling for impeachment. Abraham lincoln wanted to centralize United States government per personally think slavery was a time of a abomination. It think its the worst this country has ever committed against itself. I believe slavery could have been reconciled but rather than that a lot of people dont realize it wasnt to say you cant have was to say you were going to quintuple the amount of taxes you are paying. Thats when shots were fired. Lincoln violated the constitution might no other president ever had before him are after him and that to me, thats one of the most important legacies of his administration at parable when anybody is killed but i can understand how somebody like john wilkesbooth who supposedly was from a good family and a very intelligent man and had good connections. To say this guy is destroying the constitution. Let me talk about a few things that youve you said. What lincoln thought he was deserving what he was deserving was not the union. Was the bin emancipating the. He believes if the south were allowed to secede and the whole experiment that was democracy would be destroyed for the southwood secede and maybe the west would secede from these. Everyone in the world would be delighted that this begin of hope that america represents as ordinary people could govern themselves would be and then produce something very large and was fighting for. Theres no question in wartime Civil Liberties suffer no question when he ended habeas corpus he had his reason for doing it. What happened is the troops are coming to protect washington. People in maryland were preventing them from getting their. He needs to do something to get the troops there or the whole cause would be lost. In wartime if somebody said just Justice Marshall said even in times of emergency is when you need to be the most protective of the constitution. Without that civil war slavery would have continued but more important and that people thought at a lease until the 20th century would have continued and it was as you say an abomination. Even more the south had been allowed to secede everything he stood forward then and unproductive people and to die and it was a terrible thing they had to die. War is as somebody said but i think most historians would argue that was one of those doors that had to be fought. Host page 735 just said brutus had been dashed for the slaying of Julius Caesar john books booth felt he would be exalted for killing an even even greater tyrant. Assessing lincoln would not be enough. The brutus conspiracy was foiled by mark antony whose famous oration made outlaws of the assassins and the martyr of caesar pear freezing William Henry seward was lincolns mark antony. What i but i did not like it deeply into this was john wilkesbooth wanted to decapitate the entire structure of northern leadership. He had a coconspirator that was going to assassinate Andrew Johnson the Vice President but the guy got to the hotel and started drinking and never quite got to the Vice President hotel to kill them. He did get to sewards house. Seward lived in Lafayette Park across from the white house and need just broke in his job are week or so before. He had his jaw wired up. He was pretending he had medicine for seward. He made his way up there through a a a son at the top of stairs and would let them into the bedroom. He got hit with a revolver and its track shared his ghani went to, went to the betterman had to a knife which he slashed his other son with went to sewards bed and slashed to the entire chick up are the only thing that prevented them from dying was he had this wire from his job. He ran down the stairs and slashed to more people. A bloody massacre in the house so as he suggested he could somehow undo the Vice President the person the secretary of state could give hope to the dying southern cause. Host urahn epilogue his son survived for six weeks later francis seward was dead. Guest shes one of the great characters in the book reaches a woman way out of her time, very smart very idealistic always pushing seward to do what should be done rather than what could be done. I found a fragment of paper. Shes very frail but a lot of these 19th century women they could never figure what they were but she had the smell constitution after she attended to her husband and son for weeks they were in a difficult situation they started Getting Better and she wrote in her papers that she never before it believes in vicarious suffering but she thought they be she had taken on their losses and she was going to die. She died inextricably six weeks later. Host the book is called team of rivals the political genius of Abraham Lincoln written by noras current the wind in the call from matthews county virginia. Go ahead please. Caller my question is how do she come to something fresh in a lincoln by cuffee though David Herbert donald in so many other lincoln scholars, how do you come up with something fresh in my next question is africanamericans wonderful historian who wrote a book about lincoln entitled forced into glory. I was wondering can they particular racial bias or gender bias come into ones writing and is that something fresh that a historian, a woman has story and could bring to lincoln that maybe some of her male counterparts could not . Guest id like to think thats possible but as they say when i first started i had no full state that i could find something fresh and nothing mattered more to me that David Herbert donald read the book and said it was in. As if it were the first book on like a never published. Thats all i needed to hear forever but i think the only fair to give me a chance to possibly Say Something fresh was that all these guys that i call my guys Seward Stanton and chase because they had diaries they were also being about each other. They had insight into lincoln that hadnt been in the link and bag her face. I tried to make them not just policymakers with lincoln. As they say in the 19th century they think about lies and family but your question about fortune to glorious and adjusting went because thereve been comments in recent years as lincoln did say racist things and 18 50s when he was debating Stephen Steven douglas and its true he wasnt sure that blacks would be on the jury and could photo wasnt sure they could ever receive the quality. It says its not that he didnt wish this would happen but he wasnt sure we were capable of that think what it shows is there was a pervasive racism in the country as a whole then. Very little believe even among abolitionists that blacks could be equal to white. Its a sad commentary on where america was 150 years beyond that beyond the point where he broke down segregation and gave lacks the right to vote and we still have that in the country. Host mary todd guest him when she was probably 20 or 22 years old he was in illinois and they were always same circle. And lincoln and douglas have been the same circle when they were young. I loved mary lincoln type with your summer much sadness in her later life and we think about that older women who lost three of her four children per in one day. Sold in little willie died in the middle of the civil war 10 or younger son died at 18 and she was eventually put into an asylum by her older son robert because he didnt think she was stable enough to live on her own. When lincoln first met her when she was dating Steven Douglas she was a feisty conversationalist and welleducated preacher love poetry and politics was his unusual for a young woman at that time. Theres a wonderful story when i could first saw her and seeing her with all of her bows, maryanne would love to dance with you in the worst way. And mary said he certainly did was rather awkward. She said Steven Douglas could be a little giant and my husband towers over douglas physically. Guest she said that during the period of 18 50s. He had been called Steven Douglas was short and bold looking so he was called to load giant. A huge head and was very smart to think mary pulito mikan early on and again historians have been unkind to her in a lot of ways to she was as 18 50s. She had faith in him. He had all the ambition in the world because ever since he was young he wanted to accomplish something so story could be told after you die. I would have carried them through even if he never married anybody think we see next speaking of rival city of doing so Steven Douglas when he became president . Guest wonderful editing happen. J. Became president wants the word started douglas was close to dying at that point but he came to the white house and offered services to lincoln which meant a democratic time we sang this is not a time for partisanship return with you and thats the moment to remember because of the last time time the tomb inside each other before douglas died a few months later. He had presumably problems with drinking a lot in this body was ravaged by this terrible pressures he was put into host how did you go about putting this together click here for to the book and later in the program the practice of writing this. Guess who i once read an essay by the great historian Barbara Tuchman who said its important when youre writing especially if youve done a lot of research and will take a long time not to get paralyzed by doing too Much Research before you start writing but otherwise if id gone on for five or six years with research and had written a word i might have been oh no what am i going to do it as soon as i knew id be writing and its a good couple of years to figure out that i would write about these rivals. I was working on that memoir growing up as doing research on lincoln and writing about the book on dodgers which is a great combination. Once i figured out at the storyline in new i want to start it on the day before rivals were waiting to hear the news that they have been nominated for the presidency of the Republican Party. Actually wrote that chapter years and years ago just so i had a beginning. I made sure to do my research for their young adult in an earlier live so i could write that section. Some i got to chapter i would spend a month or so working initially on it to make sure i had everything in place and write that chapter and thats why it stretched up to 10 years. Host one viewer in Madison Wisconsin has a question for Doris Kearns Goodwin. Caller im judy moore from Madison Wisconsin and my question for doris is t. Remember any specific teachers that taught you two love stories of history and could you tell us about them . Guest i think in some ways ive had wonderful teachers in high school but there was and am a woman named miss austin but i was going to school in monoin new york and she won an award for the best teacher new yorks paper was so great was she made us feel like she really cared passionately about these people when which he wrote and told us about Franklin Roosevelt and she talked about his death she cried but when she talked about the Civil Rights Movement in the 50s there was a sense of her involvement could she was a dignified and wonderful woman. When i went to Colby College in maine i had an incredible teacher who somehow was so involved in political theory and government and politics that again he made you feel even that plato was alive. I think theres no question that we teachers when they are good candidates make you realize you were reading about people who are dead and long gone and had no inches an hour love and ct are presentday life youre reading about people up passion who had problems and who had lives. You feel their life as you feel the People Living in your own life or they come alive and you care about history but i was looking up to have those two great teachers. Host and writing wait until wait till next year when did you learn about yourself . Because my parents died when i was young my mother when i was 15 and my father when i was still in my 20s it was as if somehow they were not alive in my life in quite the same way except the stories they told to my children. To be able to share their lives with the people who would read the book and i thought it would simply be writing a book about baseball or the more i realized when i remembered the fact that my father in some ways was the First Teacher i ever had he taught me how to keep score when i was only six years old. When he went to work in new york during the day i could record for him the history of the brooklyn dodger game. Dad comes home every single night he spends two hours with you and i now realize its crew shooting detail every inning of the game that took place at and makes you think theres something magic about history. Im convinced now that i learned the narrative from those times with my dad. At first i would part out the dodgers won her the dodgers lost. I learned to tell a story from beginning to middle 10. Host the one of the photographs in your book the young Doris Kearns Goodwin your sister charlotte. You look a lot like your mom. Guess who id like to think so. Its so many years from the time when she died but the memories of her having taught me how to love reading her because she was an influence he had rheumatic fever as a child and she was not able to leave our house very much and her doctor said she had the arteries of the 7yearold when she was only 30. She would keep with me that child at dream that never happened go to sleep. What i loved was listening to stories but i became obsessed with the idea that if i could keep her talking about the days when she was young and healthy before the dramatic fever set in the somehow the aging process we are witnessing would be stopped in his tracks pray his tracks. I would constantly say tell me a story about you when you youre my age not releasing how peculiar that was who when i had three sons never said it. She read slowly and liberally lingering over the passages you like helping me feel the rhythm of the language and the pleasure of wellchosen words. She modulated her voice to reflect different characters in the face of their narration and you also said her voice was softer than yours. Guest i have a very loud voice. When im out with my friends playing on on the streets he could hear me wherever i was. I was never very shy or very quiet. Host the how did you get that it named bubbles . Guest my father would think i was enthusiastic about things and id get excited when we were going someplace thought that was a bubbly thing. Its embarrassing when he would write me letters that camp dear bubbles and everybody knew what he was calling me. Host you brought a lot of photographs in the book of your home. Guest was on southern avenue and rockwell center. The homes were so close to one another with tiny patches of lawn. My best friend had a window right next to mine across the narrow driveway or did you talk to each other at night when we are supposed to be asleep. Host was your room on the second floor . Guest it was indeed in her room is on the second floor. In the 1950s there were giant dodger fans together but she was a yankee fan i was a doctor fan. Baseball was the embodied passion and we share by vernon the block. That man i love so much for yet such a difficult childhood. He grew up in brooklyn. His father was a fireman. Little brother who is sixers old when he was 10 Sister Sister was two. His mother is pregnant mother died in as little brother was hit by a trolley car was left with little sister and his father eventually kill themselves for the little sister when she was 16 years old died in the dentist chair from from faulty and stated that he would think there would create a man who didnt have a life force in them and had the sad mentality was the most optimistic outgoing trinko in his life. He not only survived but he gave affirmative life to all of us was the gift he gave to me that i will never forget them for. Host you write a lot about was that of the finding moments growing up . Guest two things happened during one is right before my Holy Communion Roy Campanella came to my town period theres so excited and was the first time ive seen a dodger player outside the field over was announced he would speak at a boston church. Brought up as a cap that you think a few steps from the partisan churchill be struck dead. I went to the church of my father said ill worry about it. Youll be in the pairs all sitting in chairs and its going to be fine but i was worried that i had to trade my everlasting soul with Roy Campanella. I told the priest that front but the priest told me what my dad said dont worry. It was the religious service and unfortunately he said what else might child and id acknowledged that i wished very as new york yankee players would and the priest said to me how often do you make these wishes and i have to say every night when i say my prayers. He said look i love the dodgers as much as you do. You dont have to wish harm on others make them win. Some day they will win fairly and squarely. As i left he said say a special prayer for brooklyn dodgers. Host the 19491957 include the dodgers the yankees and the giants and one of them competing for the world series. The giants and the dodgers left in a short period of time. Host guest oh boy was such a blow for us to love baseball. Wed argue who is the best centerfielder in the best first basemen and these two teams were compared Walter Omalley became a tyrant in our committee. And follow baseball for so many years after the loss of the dodgers until i moved to Harvard College and went to fenway park and became an irrational red sox fan. Host are next calls from san diego. Caller i was wondering about this theory that has come out that in another book lincoln was a depressive. I just find that very hard to believe that someone who has had experience in my family with depression. Theres there is just not the energy i dont think to overcome it the way this theory says lincoln did and i wonder what your findings are on that and what you think about lincoln having been a depressive . Guest i came away with a somewhat different feeling but i think he was born with a melancholy temperament as opposed to an optimistic temperament great friend of mine has written a wonderful book studying children from zero to 20. Life can change things for them but he understood well the sorrow and his melancholy and he knew how to get himself out of it. A remarkable sense of humor when he told the story of the new how to go to conversation and when things werent as he would go to play to get his mind off of what he was doing. There were only two significant depressive episodes in his life the first one after his first great love and rutledge died. Anyone any one of us would have been in it but the second when he seemed to feel like his life force was not going for it in a rokoff is engaging with mary todd. He lost his best friend and his political career seemed to be going down. He did fall into a depression in people worried he might be suicidal. They took scissors and knives away from them but he told his friends at that time he said i havent yet done anything to be remembered by believe that dream empowered him draw the failures of his life. I totally agree with you he was the one who sustained the people during the worst days of the civil war more than his colleagues and the guys who wrote the press was the one who kept them going. I think you melancholy melancholy person is different than having depression. Host considering your Close Association with president Lyndon Johnson and the release of his white house tapes how do you ultimately view his political acumen is compared to that of Abraham Lincoln . Guest i think there were a lot of summaries in their ability to make people come around to their point of view but johnson had a much more handson policy with congress. In 1964 when he is trying to get the Civil Rights Act through Congress Talking to edward dirks and the republicans minority leader. He breaks the filibuster the Civil Rights Act and these promising everything under the sun. You come with me turks and ends every particle and i will be filled with public projects presented present so we said you come with me on this bill 99 years from now the nact will be flying your banner and 200 years and now he says schoolchildren will know only two names Abraham Lincoln and edward dirks and productive words he knew how to persuade people to come to his side. Theres a funny story some years years ago when i was a conference with the former ceo of a pest Colin Don Kendall he came over to me and he said i know that you knew johnson when you were younger but ive a story dont nobody told me when nixon first got into the presidency he asked kendall to go to the ranch talk to johnson without about some private matter. Johnson looked up and said how my supposed remember what happened 20 or 30 years ago . The only chapters that are good at all i used to push a button verbatim conversation. Theres nothing more byrdbennett taping system. I love that story. Host in the book here right after you left the presidency he said hows it possible that all these people could be so ungrateful to me after i had given them so much. I think what her in the most was the new how much you done for civil rights preview new much you done for poor people and he knew he he had done so much for education yet in the last years of his pregnant presence is Public Opinion say gone down and people forgot all the great things he accomplished. If he had only lived a longer historians are putting them higher up in the Public Opinion. Knowing those great achievements medikid is so rights that the voting act would not have happened without his great skill with congress. Host he only lived for years after his presidency. Did his depression began on january 231969 . Guest i believe it did was a man who is so and tell him both in public life and politics, he could move about a. Out the ranch he liked to replicate in a sense would at the white house. No longer were there meetings in the morning. Rather its which tractors were going to pick for richfield and it wasnt enough to sustain the imprint he felt like when i was talking to him as if the will to live had been diminished. Without that he would have sadly been happy to go away. Lady bird johnson says the cherries to turn to pumpkins and send the aids turned into mice. Host id did know that statement or thats a great statement. She was the most remarkable woman for she kept her dignity preacher wanted the mac of married some guy whos a stockbroker and lives in austin and would have been home if i put linda showed me a world and im grateful that her onetime would she be going off on something or saying something crazy she could just put her hand on his knee and say now linden you dont really mean that in all the tension would eat out of him. Host why did he write Lyndon Johnson and the American Dream . He had spent a long time talking to me about his earlier life and then he died before he was able to get back to his childhood of the senate. I have a stuff and i want to be able to share it. That became my first book. Originally would have become a president ial historian had it not been working with him. I told the story. Heres what happened. He would wake up in the morning and in that moment he wanted to talk pretty good talk and talk he couldnt bear being alone. Even when he took kidnap you want to have someone sitting outside the room so he would know you were there. Sometimes he would come into my room in the morning and i would get up knowing he was coming in. He would bring the covers up to his chin and talk to me. It was as i say a wonderful way to hear about the past to see a persons ability to be a human being as well as the president of the United States. Its a very powerful president. Host id like to share with you that the speech he delivered in there to pictures in the book Vantage Point. March 311968 and 92 mins we will roll the story behind the decision not to take up another term. I have concluded that i should not commit to the presidency to become involved in the partisan division developing in this political year. With american sons in the field far away americas future right here at home but their hope in the world hope for peace and balance every day. I do not believe that i should devote an hour or a day of my time to any personal partisan call or to any duties of it and awesome duties of this office. The presidency of your country. Accordingly i shall not seek and i will not accept the nomination of my party for another term as your president. But let men everywhere know how i feel, that a strong and confident individual and american stands ready tonight to seek an honorable peace and stand ready tonight to defend an honored call, whatever the price, whatever the burden, whatever the sacrifice that beauty may require. Thank you for listening. Good night and god bless all of you. Host taurus Kearns Goodwin in your book you said there was an aura of euphoria the next day nutella story about johnsons visit with president truman two months later and president johnson commenting on trumans decision ability to make a decision and take with it not to look at. Guest to go to the german thing what johnson so honored about truman was when he had to drop the atomic tom he made the decision on the basis of the best facts that were at his disposal. Maybe he had seen it differently if he knew of the things we never looked back. Wheres Lyndon Johnson those months before he left the presidency would wake up every night and wonder about to the bombs drop in the right place and have it done the right thing . He was tortured by that and what happened that led up to this withdrawal he began to feel the only way the war would come to an end would be if he took himself out of the political process tried to negotiate these people would say he was just doing it for the next election. That point the president is thinking about history more than an thinking about winning another term. At the same time it felt like he was paralyzed and people werent able to deal with the congress and the way he was before and get a sense that she had a grandmother who would have a stroke and when he was a little kid he was terrified to watch her because she couldnt move began to have a dream the weeks before he withdrew from the race. He too had a stroke and was lying in the red room as Woodrow Wilson who had a stroke during his presidency could hear all the advisers dividing up his power in taking it away from him. Doris Kearns Goodwin what happened is i had not originally started to work for him. I was put through the Labor Department after that article i wrote about him. After johnson gave his speech, and after Martin Luther king was killed, a few month later was going to make a major speech in the country and civil rights. Just as he had after the family demonstration. One of the people working on the speech, was giving ideas for it. So we helped him a little bit on edge. We were so excited that he was going to do that. Maybe turn civil rights in a positive way after Martin Luther kings death. In function of the white house shortly after that. And we met him as white house fellows. It doesnt he know our path. The date he teased me that youre always criticizing me arent you. Next day he called up and asked me to marco for further fellowship. I thought it was great that i had no idea what im doing the white house. And he said you have got to take this path for you got to know him. So i worked for the last month with him and stayed on until january around 69 when he left and mostly just talked to him and listened. But actually i listened is not talked. Host you are next. Guest Wonderful Program and thanks for cspan. A couple of things. Growing up in massachusetts as a red sox fan, had. Interesting session. Especially 1978 as a young man during. [laughter]. But the reason i was calling was actually about Lyndon Johnson and the things were he was is the cia to work look into marla thinkings private life. Always wondered what a contradiction that was pretty so head on civil rights. What exactly was the thinking behind that. Or was there any. Jacob greer hoover was a big part of this pretty. Doris Kearns Goodwin i think youre right, i think he was was on it does not mean that the president and have a responsibility but that was his specialty to talk look into that private lives of these public figures in his dirt could be found so that they could be discredited if he didnt like what they were doing. So people at cooper, civil rights Rights Movement was a partly because of mightve meant a lot of people gathering together in the could be some violence etc. But also maybe if they didnt like the substance of it. And there it was this tendency to look into Martin Luther king just in case they might need something. Excellent right, sweating ablaze and civil rights and then answered so much, the idea that kind of Civil Liberties being violated is not tenable thing. This is a great photograph. This is a little bit of a story to us. The guy on the clutch, that is one of my sons michael was my middle son. The person in the center is my younger son joey. Joey had just come back from iraq at this point. He graduated from Harvard College in june of oh one and is history and literature and instead of going on to graduate school level, after september 11th and he ended up joining the army instead for what will be a fork your commitment and soon as he finished basic training and went to candidate school, he was sent to iraq where he was a platoon leader. It was in baghdad for a year and after the First Division left, and went back to germany the home base, he came home to have his acl operated on for thats why he is on crutches because he had torn his knee. The red sox found out the names over there they invited him to throw the first bullet in the park. He said he was more nervous that night and when rpg was put over his head. And then that was the first we learned that an rpg had gone over his head. These harvard kids investment bankers, they were able to buy tickets on ebay. They all came back to watch him. They said dont embarrass us. If you gotta get antisemitism matter. You just won the bronze star. And you were in iraq prayed to his mommy dont understand, its a guy thing. So hes practicing on his watches. It was a wonderful thing. Its insert rational by any of iraqi would be staying up all night to listen to the red sox game. When they were in the playoffs the year before. Host how did you feel when they finally won the series. Speech of it still feels good to predict i can wake up in the morning and i can still remember what it felt like. As a baseball fan my whole life, ive only had two world series, the dodgers in 1955 in the red sox in 2004. Maybe its even better that way because more intense although sometimes it was my father had been born in the rocks instead of the brooklyn. I wouldve been a lot happier. Then there was something about the first world there is to share with my mother and father. And then the cycle and to share with my two sons from the moment it happens we were able to talk to joey in iraq and her son michael and her son richard in california. And thats was so incredible about baseball. It really does allow you to go through the generations. Ive often said i sit with my voice, we have season tickets. I love it. I can sit with them and sometimes close my eyes and imagine that im a young girl once more with my father. And dukes night or jackie robinson. And somehow that when i see my sons sitting there were my father once says, it is almost like an invisible loyalty and love. They never saw my father. Never saw the grandfather. Through all of the stories i have told they have come to know his heart install. I thinks that is why i love it so much. Host how do you think history will view the war in iraq. Doris Kearns Goodwin i think what is going to be very hard to be viewed in a positive way is whether or not there was a rush know for going in there. Even forgetting the met weapons of mass destruction which was clearly not the rational. But when they had in mind, to create a stronghold of democracy in the middle east. I guess we will have to determine whether that was a good thing. If you dont tell the people what your purposes, i think it is very hard for the people to sustain the support for the war. Its interesting, even lincoln had the rational to the Mexican American war saying that the president had instigated for his own purposes. That is toys kept doubt on that work. But the questions about how we started it. I think more importantly, even if one says the rationale was correct at some level, then obviously the fact that we had not prepared for it and will enough numbers, when my son first got there, it was right after Mission Accomplishment he had a peaceful Reconstruction Mission and he was so excited. He was going into the iraqi homes and within days the security broke down and no more translator and a more iraqi home. And instead a Peaceful Mission was she had hoped to accomplish, and three duties, weapon searches and checkpoint and he had to take his platoon out as a target. So the insurgents would to them so that they could kill the insurance insurgency term. And for him, he never secondguessed going into an army. What a great decision it was. As a kid from an affluent harvard carpet twenty said kids in the world it would never seen. High School Graduates only and he melded with them. He came the rain for his betterment. Sometimes i think we have lost something by not having the graph. I think it makes men and women and makes everybody participated in the war. I feel so sad when i see those individual peoples names in the newspapers now. I know that their families dont have the same sense that they get in war ii that everybody knew somebody overseas. I think were going to have to rethink that if were going to have these issues abroad. Host go ahead please. Guest present of a, than to questions. The comment is that people have it running nobody, no ordinary time is an excellent book. Doris Kearns Goodwin thank you very much. Guest i really highly recommend it to everybody. I have not got your book yet but i plan on doing so. Did you cover the massacre and president lincolns response to that. And the second question anything president lincoln would view real possibility of a black woman becoming president in 2008. Speech of an incoming massacre to some extent. Was so important about that is that after this massacre to class, it was a black soldiers. There is a call to retaliation so that would somehow in the north begin to the massacre the southern soldiers. In return for that. And very hesitant about that at first. I didnt believe it was right to somehow retaliate against some individuals may not have been part of the massacre. But we did issue an order. Just hoped it would not have to be used. And indeed thats what pretty much what happened to pray and think is what lincoln would think about a black woman being president. I think he would be delighted. As long as she shared the valleys. The most important thing that he talk about like ours, was it some how cleared by the artificial weight rested on people that prevented them from rewriting of their own talent. And he saw himself in a way as an example of what sows so extraordinary about america. He was able to push his way up to the top. I think he would see in modern society with a proper education of problems with poverty, whole group of people who cannot push the way up to the top and would want to have somebody whose value was to help them go through that process with a good exercise with whatever talents they had it, disciplines they had in hard work to get to the level of their ability. Guest greetings. On the hundred 45th anniversary of his election. Doris Kearns Goodwin i am not thought about that thats right. Guest pretty important. Doors im brief statement into questions. There was a stainedglass depiction of lincoln reaching out to fred archbishop john hughes, and roman collect catholic cathedral six blocks due south of the old state capital. Is there any evidence lincoln and the archbishop with the doctrine of higher law and will he be vindicated the confirmation of the fifth catholic justice. Speech of interesting. I didnt know about that stainedglass window. It was a great friend. In effect during the civil war whenever to england and it worked for the administration by being over there. Actually very funny when seward was running earlier, is great boss had also been a friend of the archbishop and had a picture of hughes in his house and whole bunch of nativists. At that time there a lot of people who are anti catholic he was asked and needed them to vote for stewart so i told them that archbishop use was like George Washington and or something that really wasnt him. What you are saying about the higher law is what is true what he said in the speech in 1850. And what he was really saying was a higher law even in the constitution that would guide us towards anti slavery. An otherwise, morality or gods law. In modern people were frightened by that. But theres a question of whether or not it was or kinda comfortable today in some ways for what is going on because even as a young governor in york state he worried that the catholics for not getting enough education and they were living in poverty. I talked about public aid to these Catholic Schools in something that again very much in controversy today. This hurt him at the time because they wanted nothing to do with helping catholics anyway. Guest what was the wigwam in chicago. Doris Kearns Goodwin i dont know. This out there now. So dont know exactly. It probably knew what it was where it was exactly but it doesnt exist in chicago anymore and it was constructive exactly for the convention. They say install the wigwam because the great chiefs met there was a wigwam as part of when loud chicago to get the convention because they promised they would build a structure beside and what is amazing is when the committee, the Republican Committee National Committee met to figure out where they should hold this convention, stewart wanted did in new york. And 71 in ohio surveillance wanted in missouri. They all said avenue illinois. Lincoln knew the importance of having it in chicago. In fact he got the railroad to give discounted fares of people could get to chicago then he was able to pack it with his supporters. And then later said, if we wanted to win a majority, he wouldnt have been the president host who work norman judd and ryan trouble. Speech of iran against lincoln in 1955. In had actually been a in the Republican Party is made up of all of these various elements. People who are former whigs and democrats liberty parties. Note states to think that senator and lincoln had the majority of those like 47, almost only five more votes in order to win the nomination for the senate in 1855. Trouble supporters, he was a former democrat. Not willing to go with lincoln. Not that they didnt like him but because he was a wig. So they held out and held out and it looked like they would be a stalemate. Lincoln was worried that if neither one of them one, that the third candidate who might win was more proslavery in southern but he turned all 47 of his friends over to five votes of troubles allowing trouble to become a senator. In his friends could figure out how he could do that. Mary was so upset, that she hardly spoke to her again in his life pretty but lincoln won the victory as a result of not making an enemy out of trouble, they had been one of those five become his great supporters 1958 and again in 1860. In norman judd it is a key figure in winning the election so it shows that he somehow dont treat the people of hurt you in the past, but and somehow can bring them back into your life, they will help you ater long. This. Host John Breckenridge is a southern candidate. He also have the know nothings which help convention nominating john tennessee and edward of massachusetts. Doris Kearns Goodwin that is correct. In the Democratic Party was really split into three. Lincoln is the republican candidate in the douglas is the predominant democratic candidate and in these other two communion parties were more conservative and different aspects of thats one of the reasons why lincoln was able to win the election because of the splits and the other parties. Host dear member the final vote count. Speech of number great print enough at the very end, lincoln was afraid of was that if new york, went for ductless freedom sorry possible that might. Their a lot of Irish Catholics in the city a lot of conservative motions who want to keep trading with the south didnt want slavery to be such an issue so they only work in the art. Even though he was told like at midnight, he won the election network. Because if he had lost, then it wouldve been thrown into the hat and then there wouldve been no majority. Host theres this characterizing this threat as president elect why was this embarrassing to Abraham Lincoln. It is all in philadelphia when the train pastor baltimore with her a lot of people that there would be a mob attack on the train possibly think about it better go and in the dead of night so the people would not know he was coming through. But he did do that need not wear a scottish like this cartoon for tirade. But some of the word got around that he dressed up in this disguise coming to washington and of the dead of night and it looked like heres the president elect coming to washington and again he become on his own power. And it was then that he had actually taken a risk and gone through baltimore and daylight even if the train was attacked. Guest how you doing today. The reason i called in a letter in november 20, 1864, Abraham Lincoln wrote as a result of the war, corporations have become enthroned and a narrow corruption in high places will follow. The power of the country who endeavored to prolong its role by preying upon the prejudice of the people until all wealth is concentrated in a few pandas the republic is destroyed. I was wondering if you had heard about that. Speech of i dont know that letter. Its extraordinary to know who he wanted to predict. Guest actually dont. That was the coach at the beginning of the chapter of the book. Doris Kearns Goodwin i would love to see that. Guest is on American History is on things you dont know about American History. Doris Kearns Goodwin what is true is that obviously early in the war had let contracts out to the buyers to make knapsacks and to make weapons and make all sorts of machinery for the war. And the middlemen midway and produce mass that fell apart in the rain. And made pistols who did it work. You see some of the worries we have even today but the interesting thing it was about to be censored by the congress for letting these contracts out to these at that time. And his whole career he felt would be destroyed forever. But lincoln stood up for his secretary of war. The letter to the congress saying that if cameron is paul, all of the sandra fall. And they were simply a problem. We have to do something to start getting the weapons paid for in the mistakes were made. But there is no question that war produces power and centralized power. It produces corporations and eventually what youre saying might be true. But i would love to find that letter. It is fascinating. Host in team of rivals, and i will read a couple of sentences. She skimmed slightly worker subject more pragmatic maneuvers in his troubling utterances about race and indeed, lincoln off often resembles a man of steel and a wise and strong leader for the ages of legacy and this good owens words find it belonging not only to america but the ages to be repaired throughout all of the times. Do you think you skim over this pretty. Doris Kearns Goodwin i dont think so. Anything i came away with a very positive feeling towards lincoln for the dont think i could easily write about somebodys greatest historians can print and live with him dave idea. But there is no question, the floss come out in the book. He was much patient to general mclellan early on pretty kept him on too long. Theres no question that his understandings of equality were not as gracious as one had hoped. In a no question, the Franklin Roosevelt had much is i loved and revered him and respected him as a leader, he was one of the greatest violations and failure to bring more jewish refugees into the country. And it was something that was sad. And the more care about these people that your writing about. The center you are about as flaws. With every leader have flaws. Overall and minx strength are far greater than his flaws. That was about lincoln. Host good afternoon. Guest ms. Kearns, if you are interviewing president lincoln on cspan, would you ask him about his presidency and what would you ask him personally and number three, what would he say about how well people that viewed his place in history, many decades later youd his modesty. It. Doris Kearns Goodwin great questions. I think i would ask him maybe about his presidency would be to talk to him about what he might have done after the war. That is a big unknown question of history. Had he lived would reconstruction had been different. How would he be treated the south. And assured that the bucket american still had rights. Everybody wonders if lincoln had it been killed, when things have been different. Its a wed would love him to be speculate what he thinks he would be like. Personally i think we just did to him, please tell me some your great stories. Mean lincoln was so much of a storyteller and so gifted that that is part of how his as a young lawyer he would travel around the circus for two month in the spring into months in the fall and when he went from courthouse to courthouse, they knew your intent, people would come from miles around. To listen to him stand up by a fireplace tells one story after another. In the safe that sad face of his once he started telling the story, his eyes and his whole life story could be shown. I would just do anything to get him to tell me one story after another. And what we think about the fact that his name has stretched so far. I think he would be astonished just much as he wanted to be remembered after he died, as much is that dream empowered him to do all of the failures throughout his life, he wanted to somehow be able to say, that he had made a difference in the lives of the people of his generation. But she surely did. But what i found for example in the book with this. The quote from leo, the great storyteller of history that made us lincolns life had gone so much further than even lincoln couldve imagined. I bet lincoln would blush. And he would into the caucuses and it was some years prior to fighting away in his article was written and he went there and he met with a whole bunch of barbarians who hardly knew anything about the west. They asked him to tell stories of the great metaphysics we talked about alexander and they said to him, no you havent told us about the one we wanted to know about. That man who spoke at the story of thunder. And he was astonished that lincoln same had reached these blue barbarians who hardly know about the market, the only new but this place is so far from here that if we were there, we would be old men but some got there. Why did they want to know, what if they heard about lincoln. Why was he so great braided it wasnt like napoleon. But he concluded, he was humanitarian the broadest the world it was his character that will last. He predicted that even two centuries from now, people would know more about lincoln and we know then because it would last forever. I think if he heard that, it would made him so happy. But his modesty with say they cannot be true. Host give a sketch handbook where forest that. Doris Kearns Goodwin the office, in the white house in the cabinet room with the same. So unlike today we but the oval office and the new about the cabinet room separate. There is big long table with the cabinet would beat. It was a Pretty Simple setting. He said to be sure they would like to seven and this the sudden and then his table where they would be arranged in terms of privacy. Secretary of state and treasury, and shows them which office is more powerful. But the incredible thing about the white house in his office in those days, a job seeker can raise into the white house is only going to lincoln and talk to him. Those were the days before civil service. And they also would have the sections in the white house where anybody could come back, diplomats like. They would actually step parts of the carpet to take home said they could take it home as a souvenir. A city cant waste time talking to all of these people. And lincoln said he needed to do it pretty and i need to remember the great populace from which ive come. I think about that now in terms of in recent decades for the white house has become so much of the cocoon. And so insulated to different but partly because of the way it is run for an they have lost touch with the people sometimes think the first election the just come from the people. In the second election, they when it and then all of the people of also lost touch with ordinary people. Lincoln understood the importance of that party had no problem, he would listen to the Public Opinion polls. That he would not say if they dont mean anything. It would educate the public. But he is to say, with the universal is possible and without its nothing. And is democracy the peoples opinion matters. They understand the mood of the people. Intuitive mystical says that and leader has. Host we dont have any more recordings in the white house. We have emails and computers. Maybe not as many letters. How will historians look at this era 100 years from now. Speech of having will be much much harder for them to recapture what people are feeling and and much more stuff to go through. It might be paralyzing but they wont have the direct entries are a letter. If youre heading to your wife or daughter, maybe her son sometimes thinking of the mostly are just writing a raw emotions from them. But as a historian, and hundred 50 years later, and you can really feel what they were feeling at that time. People are not writing letters. The hard and it is no longer there. They taught each other how to write letters when they were young. Think about husbands and wives being away from each other so much of the time. Youre gone for a year if youre not with your husband or wife and son letter writing is the only means of communication. No phones and telegraphs is not going to say as they learn how to write letters in a way that im not a mature we know how to write. When my son was in iraq and tried to write him as often as i could. Aaron supposedly a writer it was hard to figure out what to tell them. I would find lee reduce it to i would be reduced to telling him about lincoln. Meanwhile my other son is 14 months older and was in the picture the result of earlier holy scratches. He is himself wanting to be a writer. He rented his brother every single day. Handwritten note everyday. And when you bring up your kids, and the two of them are fighting in the back of the car when they are young, theyre almost like irish twins. There was a sense in which once i kneeled and his brother had become the cause, that was all that mattered. Host among the boat, wait till next year came out in 1997. In the latest team of rivals. Next call in santa barbara, california go ahead. Guest great show. On to get goodmans opinion on something. In the article five of the constitution says that there are only two groups of americans who can propose changes to the country and one group of congress and the other is there. Right now in the Night Circuit Court of appeals is a federal lawsuit called walker versus members of congress and shows that all of the applications for medical five convention, are registered. The failing to carry out the constitutional. It out just wondering what you thought of that if you think it is time for an article five convention. Doris Kearns Goodwin know what youre talking about freedom interested in hearing about that. Absolutely right though. I think the framers decided constitutional amendments was such an important process and the need to be two popular ways of initiating their. One could be the congress and what could be the state conventions as you say. And it almost all cases in history is been out process to get through. They can be so important. The bill of rights from the amendment and even during lincolns time. He did everything he could to get the congress to pass these constitutional amendments which were under slavery then have them go after the state seem to try to globalize that as well but it is important to be no roadblock pretty people want to bring in the amendment whether it failed or succeeded, you should be able to do that and i will look into what youre saying because i dont know about that predict. Host headed lincoln be the constitution. Doris Kearns Goodwin some people said that he had this dual feeling. He repaired it. And the framers predict those people who grew up in his generation, remember they are that far from the founding spread is young man, he did this famous speech where he worried that his generation to have the same challenges that the Founding Fathers did. They were the one who establishes fantastic government and they would remember in mountains and rivers and streams. Theres nothing left for an generation except to protect what they have done. Modest convictions. An advocate of it they could not have imagined it would lead to the challenge and the door. But because he was in the constitution so much, thats why it was hard for him and could not have been an abolitionist in the 1850s because the abolitionist, many of them said tear of the constitution. In protect slavery as it does. Then we dont care about the constitution. And he felt that institution would not be gone in the constitution. The whole framework that held the country together would be done and he really loved the disc declaration of independence but he saw that and is quality is something that could certainly with the constitution. Host when was this photograph taken. A. Doris Kearns Goodwin i cant see it. This from the battlefield. If he went a dozen times to visit the sold soldiers, and what would happen is after each battle was lost, he felt compelled to go talk among the shoulders. He would visit them in the hospital and somehow it would good his spirits and him interpret he would come back and having their spirit inside of it inside of himself ready anyway to the soldiers, and is so important to the soldiers that when he ran again and 1824 against general mccall and, who is a popular with the soldiers early in the war, he said that he cared more about the soldiers and he even about winning the second election. He would be fine and if you won the second election of lost in the soldiers vote he would be devastated. Somebody had occurred between all of these trips to the front of the soldiers eight out of ten for lincoln even though the new the voting lincoln would prolong the war. Maybe even losing their lives. But they had come to trust the cause because they came to trust this man. That was one of the greatest things in that second election. Suet our conversation with Doris Kearns Goodwin. Our next call from institutions. Guest is a pleasure to talk to you. I been so excited about hearing about your book and i just ordered it. Im anxious to read it. First will quickly, do you have anything to do with bill spriggs movie on lincoln. Speech i do indeed bring it. Guest what is it going to be about. Doris Kearns Goodwin what happened is i first met him in 2000. He put together a bunch of historians and he found out i was working on lincoln. And he said he would like some day to make a movie on lincoln. And he is known a lot about lincoln. Early on, before i even finished my book, he said we will put to work on it in the first one he became a great friend. And on the last time right and that he put a second scriptwriter, paul, a british playwright. And last thanksgiving with us in this thanksgiving with us. When it be made, hopefully sometime soon. But i trust there was no one that i would rather have been and then still works. Host did lincoln sound like pretty. Doris Kearns Goodwin but he said he had a thin highpitched voice would you cant hardly imagine from the large character but his voice they said could range very far. Most were outdoor venues. And somehow it be heard wherever it was pretty one rick porter heard, in 1854, and run about it later. He said when he first started out, where that thin highpitched voice, where and how awkward he looked. And yet once he started speaking, he spoke with such conviction and with such strength inside the suddenly his voice became louder. In his whole energy seen in his face spread his face would light up in his body would move. And he became a different person. So theres no question that the dazzling words that he was able to write, his voice was able to deliver them with heartfelt feeling. It is the most important thing about a speaker. Host but we really be called greatest. Doris Kearns Goodwin [laughter]. Lincoln. What else would it be. I dont know. They will decide that. Guest this is jim. I wanted to followup on the corporations the citation earlier and give you what the citation is. Doris Kearns Goodwin thank you guest was in a letter to col. William duncan on november 21, 1864. Some of the surrounding context of that later if i might read it. As you might congratulate ourselves that this cold war is nearing its end. Vestment of treasure in a trying hour for the republic. I see in the near future, it causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result, they have been enthroned an area of corruption in high places will follow them power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign and working upon the prejudices of people. And that the republicans destroyed. If you let this moment, or anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before. Even in the midst of work. God grant that my decisions may prove well. For a few years later, january 1937, lincoln said in the speech to the illinois legislature, they generally act harmoniously with we the people. We are called upon to appropriate the peoples money to settle the coral. I just wonder if you might say a few words on lincolns relationship between suppercaseletter and his view of the commonwealth of the people. Doris Kearns Goodwin what he did say at one point was that labor prior to capital. His whole theory was that the laboring people one of business and working they created a business and hired other laboring people. But without the laboring men and everything was primary to that. Thats in a famous speech that he made. It is no question that he would have a sense, in the age before the industrial revolution. Before you really got fullscale caplets. Youre just beginning how people go to the cities and go from the farm to begin to build up a certain amount of wealth. Since interesting to one or fewer until later asian look back on that prior to capital. Doris Kearns Goodwin i couldve gone on another five years or another ten years and i never lost interest in lincoln. I look up every morning and i look now the place where i worked for the i work on this ridiculous lounge bees and the laptop but a needle of my papers around me so i cant work in odessa somehow. So sitting sort of like how i am now part of the computer on my lap. I look now that and i feel sad when i go buy it except lost the focus what it was like every day to know and my husband works as well. They would go to a study on one side of the house i would go to mind. And we would read the newspaper in the morning before working. And i would somehow have to keep up with a day because i was doing analysis and nbc at night. Lisa could imagine what was going on at least a little bit. And then we would go to her studies and then we would go to town and have lunch everyday. Just to be able to get out. And we would read the newspapers at lunch i may go back to work in the afternoon. Do errands in the afternoon then every night we go to the same restaurant. With as a group of 20 or 30 of us, all have children who are grown. And sit around in a pub like atmosphere the mark and become part of each others lives. In them something so structured about those days. With lincoln at the core of its that immensity canal. Even during the time of Monica Lewinsky that 2000 election or all of the trouble that we have been in 911. I knew i could wake up the next morning with Abraham Lincoln it was a great street. Doris Kearns Goodwin i get the fark sports page. Emma has been has a front page and then we switch. Host were going to show the audience your home in massachusetts. And we will come back and continue our discussion. Book tv in depth. With Doris Kearns Goodwin. Doris Kearns Goodwin i think my love of history goes back to the time when i was six years old my father taught me that part of how to keep track of the dodgers games. Your father comes home and spends two hours with you every night. Listening to you record the history even if it is just something that just happened afternoon. The existing the there is something magic about history. Then i just had a great history teacher michael that made that love. I came to a fascination with the presidency because of having pork with Lyndon Johnson when i was a younger way to sell somehow the presidency and the love history melded together at that point. I like to a government in the morning usually around six or 630 going to a study and read over what had written the day before. Hoping that it still looks good. Somehow the night before, it might not seem right. And then the next morning. And my husband works in another part of the house because hes a writer as well as i am. And we usually go out for lunch because we are working here all day. Be back in about 1 00 oclock until 2 00 oclock. And do some errands in the afternoon and then we come back home and maybe working with couple of hours. And then there is a restaurant in our town where about 20 or 30 people gather every night. Leader in the bar. It is like a huge family. Then we come, after that in my mind is in writing. Not for lincoln, just reading about the novel are mysteries. Go to bed relatively early so i can get up again at 6 00 oclock youre writing about. Do you write as you do your research. Doris Kearns Goodwin the first couple of years required Research Just to get oriented it and figure out the angle you will take. In my case with lincoln, just having to read all about the rivals those would be writing about almost like an individual biography in each one of them. So that was pure research. This one because youre just learning the whole time. But remember learning and reading the historian, dont wait too long to write because of you wait too long my get paralyzed. So soon as i have a vague sense of what i wanted to go with this book which took ten years altogether, probably a year or two are one and half, it didnt start writing. And i would do more research and more writing and then combine them continually as i went along. This whole shelf over here is lincoln books. One of the great things today about being able on the internet to get your books is you really can get a collection of books they may be out of print. So it turns out that lincoln about almost any other public figure, and i was lucky enough to buy going to the used bookstores and old book sales to get an entire wall full of lincoln books and have them right here at my side. That was just terrific. In any one moment i could be able to go to the diary or go to chases diary or private papers. So everything really was in this room of the books that i needed and the rest were papers and other sources that are dragged into the house and probably, 50 cartons or so that are stacked up in another room. Them because it takes me so long to write these books, i have to want to live with the people sidebyside. Living with franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt for example was such a great pleasure because there were such large characters. And interestingly it took me six years rhythmic which meant longer than world war ii was fought. So if you going to spend that much time with them, you want to live with them day by day, you better enjoy their company. And so too with lincoln. I read an essay on time by a great historian at the turnofthecentury. And she said the reason so many people write about lincoln is because he is so companionable and truly felt that. This book to me twice as long as the civil war. Yemen enjoyed everyday living with his man. He was such a good man. In his companionship, really craved it day by day. I would have a hard time writing about somebody that i didnt want to live with david a. Obviously great historians have written about him hitler. I dont think it could be me. I need somebody that i respect or admire. Even if they have flaws, want to enjoy the company day by day. Host the book no ordinary time. You begin chapter one relaying the story Franklin Roosevelt as president. Remembering him as a young boy and how he would close his eyes and reflect on the time was he thinking. Speedo here he was paralyzed from the waist down. Unable to walk on his own power ever again since the polio had taken his legs in the 30s. He is such an athletic outgoing person in turn informs of his physical activity. He would like to remember the day when he was young boy again. Lives big sledding hill behind his house. As a boy he would go to the hotel for the hillside in the hill then take his lead and walked back up to the top. So somehow instead of counting ship, he would remember in his mind, going up and down the sledding hill that somehow allow him to call me go to sleep. That was the memory of the time when he was a young boy had all of his powers which were now no longer allowed for him. Host was he missing a hand. Doris Kearns Goodwin that was his secretary. She started working for him when she was 18 years old. And anyway she loved him for the rest of his life. She was with him in the 20s when he was down in florida in trying to get his power to walk again while eleanor remained at home. And she said with him all through the presidency. And sandler had a stroke in the middle of his white house years. And last years during the war. And then went home to somerville. This one of the centerpieces of his life because i felt sad that he didnt keep up with her when she had the stroke rate is one of those moments when you want to say, such a great guy. Not being good to this woman. He couldnt bear the hurt calling on the phone knowing that she couldnt talk back to him. I shouldve at least talk to her. So that she could respond. Host he needed to be around people. The white house and the second floor was a constant buzz of activity people in social activities. And it was very outgoing. Doris Kearns Goodwin no question fighting i think was happen, he couldnt travel a lot inside of washington. He wanted people around him and every moment. He loved to talk and he loved telling stories and listening to stories. He made the second floor of the white house almost into an exclusive microtel you can possibly imagine. Churchill comes in spend weeks at a time in the bedroom diagonally across roosevelt. In Foreign Policy advisor coming to dinner one night early and sleeps over never leaves until the war comes to an end. And exile american statement there with family and the weekends. And eleanor of course is there as well. In a former reporter who loved milner a staying taste eleanor. So i kept imagining what kind of conversations all of these people mustve had in the bathrooms at night as they gathered in the court and surrenders bedroom suites. And Lyndon Johnson and i thought about asking boarded eleanor sleeping churchill but of course i wasnt thinking in those terms to back it and i was 25 years old. So i mentioned it on a radio program. In a happened that Hillary Clinton was listening so she probably called me up and inviting me to sleep overnight at the white house. And together we can figure out where everyone some 50 years earlier. Two weeks later she followed up with an invitation to a steak dinner between midnight and 2 00 a. M. After the dinner my husband and i and with her airfreight room. The clintons where fdr was and we were sleeping in Winston Churchills bedroom. I was sure he was sitting in the corner drinking his and brandy. And it was so exciting. Host 20 he married eleanor. Speedo there is probably no one like our. Im sure he let her bring this to his credit that he could have any woman in the time pretty was wealthy and handsome an aristocrat pretty yet a son eleanor something that he hadnt tensing the most of the balls. She had such a sad childhood. Her father no alcohol can a mother dying and her mother so beautiful that she is to make eleanor feel that bill she had felt her mother because she did not have a pretty face. Vincent eleanor this into a boarding school in england and the head of the boarding school made her feel she should have have a commitment to social life, not society life but to social work. It was different for most women her age. Do not suddenly go back and be a debutante. So she started to work in the social house. And to help people in poverty and so when he met her peers young woman who was interested in politics and the board thinks that he cared about them enjoying his life and he chose the best woman for him. He won a letter here, describe the relationship between Franklin Roosevelts daughter it was a pretty. Doris Kearns Goodwin up to first will get back to the sea, when eleanor and franken were married about 12 years or so, she brought in the secretary, alerted to help her. And lucy at the time, beautiful young woman, classy woman actually and it seemed that franklin felt for her. At that time eleanor was not confident in her marriage british and her motherinlaw to contend with. And had taken control relay of the kids in the family. And she had lost a lot of her zest. She had when she was young working girl in the settlement house anyway, he seemed to have fallen for lucy and elinor eventually discovered some letters that he had written to the st. Lucie had written to him. And offered him a divorce in 1918 votes the last thing that he wanted. So obviously he agreed to get together and stay together. And a promise never to see lucy again. But then he did keep that promise for a long time of years. But during the white house years, elinor traveled so she left home a lot and he got very lonely. Especially that last year of his life when his health was failing and he had heart failure. He happened to run into lucy again. In deciding he wanted to see her again. Just have come and talk to them in the white house. But the only way he could do that would be to have his daughter anna was working as his hostess in the white house when eleanor was way range for this meeting is in. And a new doing so they would be hard if her mother ever found out that in the event she realized that her father needed the companionship. So she did range proceed to visit the white house several times in the last year. All mind gone with no one being heard but for the unfortunate fact that she happened to be in georgia when he died. She left immediately of course but as soon as eleanor came down, she would ask is one in the time of death, tell me everything that happened in the last day or so. And they told her that lucy had been there. Its hard to imagine how she would get absorbed that news along with the death but likely in that day and age, there were no press following it up. She did not have to be humiliated in front of the country. Just one hand herself. And when she had been at the lucy had been there but her daughter anna had made this possible, she must have felt that she lost her daughter and her husband the same time. I was so sad when i heard that. I did not want in the book that way. Im so delighted to find that eventually she was able to forgive anna and the mother and other thinking customers against again. Host i had not written before for many reasons. But you are constantly was very loving and had heartfelt sympathy and i was following every step of the way. He told me so often and with such feeling of joy and comfort on the trip. I do think of is very rich pride. He told me so often and with such feeling that all of you had medford went up to you in a dolly because you are a child because you are yourself. I am very devoutly and heartbroken something, lucy. Doris Kearns Goodwin could you imagine what that letter mad met to her but knowing that her father who she adored, had talk in such loving terms about her to lucy. Ends likely what happened is that after a while, eleanor just came to realize how much franklin had meant to her into the country. That the partner ship had given her state she would never had. And everywhere she went, people would tell her how much they loved her husband. Conductors, cleaners, peoples and all types of life. And then she was able to reach back beyond the heart and knowing that he st. Lucie those last two years. Remember all of the good years that they had together. And she would put this out of her mind whenever she would talk to franklin, out of her public conversations anyway whenever she talked of her husband is only with love and respect. In some wonderful lesson in the way to be able to finally maybe not forget, but to forgive something that is hard to in the past. Host very thin and frail Franklin Roosevelt in 1944, 181 for a fourth term. Doris Kearns Goodwin i believe that he thought even though his health was not what it was before, and a measure he was fully aware of how sick he was pretty was such an optimist pretty even though his doctor doctor told him he had heart failure. He said i beat folio so i can beat this. By think he believed that even without his full health, that he was in the middle of the war, he had seen adept at that point, he wanted to see it through. My guess is some people have talked about the possibility that patty not died when he did, he still mightve turned the presidency over at some point in his health and gotten worse once the war came to an end. But he wanted to see the where the head be given under his arm to end on interpretive. Doris Kearns Goodwin i didnt know harry truman very well. It became so important in our history. It is not to roosevelts credit that he didnt spend a lot of time figuring out who this Vice President should be. But i suspect it was part of the denial that he was ill not to want to think about it was going to replace him. It is just very likely lucky as it country that harry truman became such a great president. Guest im a great fan of yours. Doris Kearns Goodwin thank you. Guest i had a question regarding lincoln and connection to all the president s you are talking about. And the fact that at some point in this critical times in American History, president s had made decisions and followed policies that had to be kind of camouflaged in a way in order to be accepted by the people and the congress and in lincolns case, as you said earlier pretty was fighting a world award to as a war to preserve the union, something that people could get their minds around. In roosevelts case, the way he package lend lease and other policies. All before pearl harbor. And write down to what they say today about weapons of mass destruction in iraq. Whether that was really just a justification for responding to the 911 attack and a dramatic enough way that sends a message to the world saying if you can assess hard and is drastically as we were, nobody just as hard and drastic retaliation for lack of a better word. Although i guess that is what it is. Under president s justified and kind of covering well covering up might not be the best word pretty but using the ideas that people can relate to. To get the policies which they believe men to be right underway. Doris Kearns Goodwin ben is very thoughtful way of putting it. I guess it was depends on what the overall purpose is. As to whether or not it really does move with a grain of history and will create a Greater Peace in the world. Or greater justice in the world. Right in talking about roosevelt that even in the early days before pearl harbor, he would talk about a way of preventing us from having to get into more rain and somehow britain would hold out against germany and it might make it easier for us not to be in the war even though at some level i suspect he knew we would have to get in that war. How could you say that is effective. I think what he understood was that way back in 1938 he is given a speech about orientating that dictators unacquainted such enough work in congress to call for his impeachment that he would try to send it is a terrible thing to be the president in democracy pretty feel like you are leading a parade and you look over your shoulder nobody is following you. We realize you had to move stepbystep to educate and face Public Opinion to way you want them to go. And in that case, getting american involved in world war ii was essential. If hitler had been allowed to succeed in that war, entire civilization wouldve been destroyed. To say do what you can to bring the people along the goal is absolutely worth it. I think in some ways his greatest leadership was even before pearl harbor. We were more when pearl harbor finally happened. And similarly with lincoln, had to move stepbystep toward that ms nation process. What about the border if any of done it later he wouldve lost love morale thing. Its one of those mystical things but later, the understand where the people are and how to move them stepbystep. I think ultimately the question will be wise to work in iraq truly the right back lord did become a diversion for the warren tariffs. Use of our resources and treasures. Or didnt do what they were opening eventually did turn out to be holden democracy. To show other that you better not mess with us. In history still is very unclear about which way that will turn out. That will be the judge of whether or not that early talking about it in a different way to justify it or not. At the end result is not right, and the will be more difficult to accept pretty. Host were getting a lot of emails. To think that lincoln wouldve been as revered as he is now enough been assassinated. Doris Kearns Goodwin is probably no question that dying at the height of his work about to be one, not having to deal with reese construction all of them messy problems of peace probably did his reputation intact. Knowing that it wouldve been had he had to do with a pretty missing that however, i would so much rather have had him in the country wouldve been so much better off dealing with reconstruction than Andrew Johnson. Even if it meant that his reputation was somewhat diminished because it was complicated and messy pretty to have him with a much greater sense of empathy towards the south, but at the same time protecting the lives of black americans. If we had better reconstruction than to be the whole country would be better off today. And then it would be worth it. Host all watching, one of the students says do you think it was a wise decision for lincoln to choose a southern democrat Denver Johnson pretty. Doris Kearns Goodwin i think the time he thought it was a wise decision because it meant that he was biting up his party that would come after the war. He needed to have democrats and republicans together in a kind of union party. Andrew johnson had been at the part of the war. As it turned out however he didnt know enough about Andrew Johnsons character and the weakness and kind of leader he would become. He became somewhat evident on the inauguration day. Because he had too much to drink and he hadnt been well they give an incredible rambling speech and everybody was panicked. The suggested he was going to be up to the job. So they had he known in a johnson better, he might not have chosen him. He didnt have as much to say about who the Vice President would be. The convention decided more than he. It is far as him being republican, it did not turn out very well. Host hundred women influence lincoln. His presidency. Doris Kearns Goodwin in some ways, said relationship developed with his wife influence loneliness that he felt during the presidency. But as little ten yearold son willett died in february of 1862, mary was forever altered and she took to her bed. And really couldnt even be a mother to the youngest son who was eight at the time. In almost with a little lincoln, he could write poetry, he was sensitive going to care of his younger brother who had a speech defect free to most people cannot understand what he was sating. When willie died, would spread to the capital, added Drinking Water because the soldiers were using the rubber at the latrine. And killed while in many ways killed mary. So i think in some ways, allowed lincoln to feel the personal loss of the war the mitten project that to the people at large we talked about the Family Service of were also broken. That empathy that was a remarkable part of his own temperament was probably strengthened by this loving kid in dining the middle of the war. Host think youtube willing to give credit to your history teachers. Im a College History teacher and should give more credit to your and normas energy and talent and hard to the redhaired girl from the spring of 1955 talking to myself and others as we waited to go into the Entrance Exam at saint Agnes Catholic school. Speech of that is exactly where i went to catholic school. I went to Public School actually but we go to cdc on wednesdays and sundays know my confirmation in 1955. That is true pretty. Doris Kearns Goodwin this was at spring training. I would go down to it spring when my voice little justin able to write some sort of article to be able to play around and see the players in such a relaxed setting. I actually wrote an article on him one year about his quest for the batting title. It turned out to be an extraordinary star because what happened is i got very close to his sister. Very close to his mother and his sister and his family. His sister in multiple sclerosis and a big history buff. Chic in my hometown to see the Historic Sites and sugar around we became friends as result of it. In one day in 1986 it wouldve been, the year the red sox almost won the world series. She called me one day and we talking and i mentioned that wade had a broken rib. We were afraid the doctors, we didnt think the doctor was taking good care of him. It got to get into the doctors out that his sister called the mother does a move we should go to a different doctor. Said they would happen is the mother called wade and told her and he told her that he loved her pretty into not minutes later and was killed in a car crash with her mother turned. So his grandmother and mother were gone. And for days he just went home. He was self close to his family knowing when he came back to the red sox were in the period of time i got a call from him. Its just astonishing pretty just wanted to thank me because my calls to the system next calls he has had a chance to tell her he loved her right before she died. So what started out as this frivolous kind of baseball article about way turned out to be something more to both of us. Doris Kearns Goodwin richard on the left now in his 30s and joey my lap and michael to the right. Twentyseven and 28 years old. Sue and her next call comes from us from los angeles. Guest a comment relative to the caller from florida and was she had said about the iraq war. It does seem that not particularly big fan of democracy. And he is the guy that mapped up the strategy 1996. And if the people who currently run this country are liberal democrats, i would be quite surprised otherwise they would not have been trying to overthrow for three or four years. And also having overthrown and previously destabilized and ran place the successors. What would say relative to lincoln is i think these people who are currently running our country, are sort of coming out of that imperial presidency which he was the first to really create through executive order. In sort of the thing that clung to but opponents of the far right free to think there is some truth to the notion that when the congress adjourns, the role of order, there is no lawful way the president can use Emergency Powers to reconvene it. Doris Kearns Goodwin it was not in process right then well except for three or four months. It took such a long time to get there so lincoln didnt have to take executive action and hope that they would be sustained with the Congress Finally came to being. There is no question that they had continuing executive power. It happened in the civil war and world war ii is happening recent years. With foreignpolicy having such a precedent so that we do have to worry about that. I think one of the things that is so saddens me about the history of the iraqi war is the debate took place in congress before congress authorized the president to take the actions that he did was so shortened. I remember robert berg ending up saying, this is terrible that we are not demanding at the halls of congress are silent. I think the democrats are to blame as well as the republicans pretty distinctly remembering back on that pretty they wanted to get this over. And they were afraid to think everybody, im not standing up and looking strong after september 11th. But as a result we went into that to the president without the Congress Really fully absorbing this information they were getting and if we had a longer time, or reports, enforcing ministration to talk more to the congress, maybe that authorization would not have taken place pretty. Host from texas. Personal experiences with Lyndon Johnson, can you comment on his life and political career. Doris Kearns Goodwin fantastic. He is as good of a writers you can get as a history writer. His ability, for example in his first volume when he talks about electricity coming to rural texas produce magical huawei makes it coming to to live pretty legacy has going along come is just understand Lyndon Johnson. Johnson may have not liked what he liked, but he said about him but he would be very proud of a man of his stature work on this. Im a fear that there will be a panel of all of the president s that have studied in each one be telling me what i got wrong. The first person will be Lyndon Johnson. And why was a book twice long as when you write about me. Host your next. Guest Franklin Roosevelt achieved so much such as Social Security, the ftc, the Federal Reserve open market committee. Ntsc, fha, unemployment concerns, the g. I. Bill, temporary relief jobs to get people through the great depression. But ive always believed this best work was his extraordinary leadership during world war ii. How are was frank lynn roosevelt so effective during world war ii and the country was so unified especially when you compare that to the base gnome or the current mess in iraq pretty seem to be going so badly. Doris Kearns Goodwin what roosevelt understood and world war ii that if you were going to be wrong for which we suspected it was, then you had to involve as many people the home front as possible. So they would feel connected to that war. So personally at 12 or 13 Million People working in the factories during the war. Another 40 million were drafted in the army during the war. But then he also had police and blood drives and he had people buying bonds even it wasnt the most efficient way to raise money for the war because he wanted them to feel part of the drive. He had scrapped robert drives, aluminum drives, all which were designed to say the way for are going to be fighting a war, everybody at home should be feeling connected to it. I often felt after september 11th that president bush and his Incredible Opportunity if he had gone to the country. Just as roosevelt did, he said without moore capito, they have to become to win the war. Made some of the liberals man because he decided he had to have a partnership. He gave them get great contracts. And antitrust violations. They became important to him pretty even as he protected labor of the time if president bush adopted the country and said, taxcut now has to become this 911 and use the resources of the taxcut had provided possibly to emergency situations to make it better in our country. It mightve been ready there for katrina. We could have a Public Health system that was strengthened for the potential of biological attacks and wouldve been good it is a rights as well as helping him take the biological attacks pretty couldve been police. There couldve been potentially dropped again. So that more people were felt to be part of this effort. Instead of having the small group of people that are in a voluntary army. There was such unity after 911 then i think what history will have to suggest is afghanistan seem to have produced that immunity. Was there rock the rights battle to fight to keep that unity alive. Seems to be breaking apart. With all of that support, one might have hope in her home front couldve been mobilized in a somewhat different way. As to what can you describe the relationship between Sarah Roosevelt, her son and eleanor. Doris Kearns Goodwin i would not have wanted Sarah Roosevelt as a mother in law. She was very important to franklin however. She gave him whatever the thing is that he had as a young boy and then as the president and an older man. Came from that mothers undying love for her only child, and her husband was a much older men pretty and she doted on him. It was so much so that i think it was hot sometimes it was hard for him buried because when he was young she took him out of school, she didnt let him go until he was older pretty never got easily with men of his own age. But nonetheless once he got married, dont think she was ready to let them go. As a result of, eleanor had a very hard time finding a relationship with her husband. She created two houses in new york. One for her and one for them. And it quarter right in between. Somehow she would be the one who would take no dont worry if one of her kids did something bad, she wanted a card to make you feel better. So think she was a very goal force in owners life. Make their marriage much more complicated. Doris Kearns Goodwin she died in her 40s. She was character and her death, i think is a 1941 is very hard he wore a black armband for a long period of time and he really did love that woman. Ive got to an enormous credit for that. Host your next. Guest this is a rumor that heard. By the weight great show. Thank you very much. Lincoln, he mightve been again man. So did elinor have a lesbian relationship. Speech of actually those two questions to bond together. In a certain way because heres what i came away thinking. As far as liking goes, people thought he mightve been gay. Theyve written about it recently reasons one that he slept in the same bed and scrape credit joshua for three years. And to than he wrote flowery letters which ended with yours forever lincoln. But in fact as i look into that period of time, but i discovered in the midst date relationship with each other were very intense. And women slightly more intense with one another. And slipping in the statement, was not anything unusual. Lincoln was on the second in illinois coming actually was like sometimes two or three to a bed. The judge was only one who slept in his own bed he was 300 pounds. Then i discovered letters and for example when stored in chains we have made, the most lost their lives wives. Here is what stanton writes. Stanton writes and he says ever since intercourse last summer, no one is in your mind. Dream of you at night. I dont hold you by the hand and say i love you. No one suggested that stanton was gay. No one suggested that chase was gay. And then when he was in the state legislature, he became romantically involved without. No one suggested that either one of them okay. In fact, the older colleague, eventually try to make a pass and a wife and almost broke of the marriage. Something we look back at the time, we have to realize that men had these close attachments. There is no definition of what homosexual he meant until 1868. But more importantly they felt free to talk one another to fire a way that might seem odd todays modern world pretty similar eight fellner wrote very flowery words to her friend and ive written about the 1970s to say that was very common for women to write that way to each other. And part of it is that women and men cannot have friendships rated everything was so structured and chaperoned. So men men and women would became more intensely involved. I would argue is probably the context of the times that is more important than to label them today from our own perspectives pretty. Host the question has been answered about the wigwam. Doris Kearns Goodwin i cant believe i have forgotten already. Lincoln marker, built in 1860, and torn down and destroyed in 1867. Doris Kearns Goodwin thank you very much. This was so great about the show. Guest number one, close the deal with general the Supreme Union commander, he seemed very helpful to the south. He ran again against lincoln in 1864. But the high level. How concern was lincoln but the gathering strength of the old colonial towers. French troops in mexico. Was a concern that the old colonial powers wanted to try to move back in a north American Continent as they had in previous centuries. Thank you. Doris Kearns Goodwin yes he was very concerned pretty glenn in france i think the civil war as the opportunity for them not only to come back and get more land perhaps from america but even more importantly they wanted to hold democratic experience midst in the art protecting moniker rate in a different form of government. And if it prove the ordinary people could not govern themselves, is good for them. Especially their aristocrats. And the wealthy classes in england. In many ways a row the south in their struggle against them. So is a very important. And keeping the english people out of the word keeping the french out of the war. And england the workingmen work very favor of the northern because because they were in favor of the emancipation. The ruling powers or exactly as you suggested and trying to maneuver us into a situation with the north were to listen if the south was put off and maybe we could pick off mexico and the things can be done. So as far as your first question goes, but enough of god. I still there. Host he is not actually. Host this is from ray. Saying that if lincoln were to be involved in politics today, which party when he align himself with pretty. Doris Kearns Goodwin interesting thing is that he was very loyal but politically. It took him a long time to lose the legs before he became a republican. I think he would stay with the Republican Party but my guess is he would try to move it in a progressive fashion. So they didnt care of a people who didnt have educational opportunities. He once said the government was there to do for individuals, they would not do so well for themselves. So i think he would have a different philosophy but i think he would try to make the Republican Party what he believes in rather than to switch to some other party. Host why did he run against lincoln in 1864 pretty. Doris Kearns Goodwin now i remember the question. I dont think it is fair to say that mcclellan was a separate door. What happened was he was a conservative democrat and did not believe that emancipation should be at all a goal in the war. As a result he was very upset with lincoln introducing him he thought it would make more longer and work seem more resistant in the sophomore importantly the trouble is general which lincoln shouldve seen earlier than he did was that he was great at organizing the troops. No army to begin with. But he created that great engine of stationary engine pretty somehow didnt have whatever it took to take his troops into war bringing some people have argued that he loved them so much he doesnt want to take them into battle. Some people argued he really was going slow because he wanted the war to come to an end without hurting the south. Whatever was he turned out not to be a very good general. And lincoln took too long to ask for his resignation. So 1964 in the summer of 1864 it looks like the fortunes of the work were very low even though the gettysburg had been one and they had been one to the north. He was not sure he would win another election because the morale was down. Many lives have been boston people work blaming him. His of the democratic conventions thought that would be the perfect person to run against him because he of the support in the north of what we call the conservative democrats. If the people who thought the war was going on too long. I think he thought because he had been so popular in the army he would have the support of this huge element that was in the army. As it turned out he won that army boat mattered so much to him. And mcclellan hounded the election terribly. And anyone off in sao tome money but the trouble was that he wrote letters to us wife all during the civil war. Theres so damning to him. Now that they have been published, its for his call whole reputation. He said god has let him where he is pretty he could be a dictator if you wanted to. He said such terrible things about lincoln. He never takes responsibility about his failures. He loved it out right on stanton. He rented telegram to the white house said that if i lose this battle will be your fault. And you have sacrificed the month army. He was so stunned at the insubordination of that last line that he counted out of the lincoln so that stanton didnt see it. It became knowledgeable later. But lincoln then after lincoln our standard was getting pounded. Lincoln then gave a huge speech to a union rally bigger than a rally in the inauguration with which he took the responsibility pretty citizen on stanton, i wouldve sent him if i cut it and youre not to blame stanton. It finally stopped the critique. They acknowledged him immediately and shoulder the responsibility for the support ordination. Always blaming somebody else for what he did. Host once a month we spent three hours with a distinguished author. Doris Kearns Goodwin is our guest. This is from paris, california. Guest you have such a wonderful compassionate for writing history. Any time in the future, you plan on writing a book about civil rights. Doris Kearns Goodwin i dont know what im going to do next. That is a good idea. One of the difficulties is that you get so caught up and went to are doing it is hard to imagine doing anything different right now. But some way Civil Rights Movement would be logical of the fact that after lincoln left the presidency, still needed that Civil Rights Movement in the 1950s and 1960s to complete the ms temptation at the true beginning of the breakdown of segregation into the beginning of the quality for brock black americans. So might be a nice sequel. The hard thing is even i had to move from roosevelt to lincoln, and had to move all of my result looks out of my said he felt like somehow i was betraying roosevelt. I think it will be a while before i can leave lincoln behind. But at some point, im sure come up with something else. I cant wait to be back in the thick of another book again. Six. Guest modern day hightech computer has eliminated the need of Big Government socialism of what the democrats offer. What could they possibly bring to the table to assist our Free Enterprise capitalist system. Doris Kearns Goodwin i think what the democrats still stand for is the idea that government can aid to people in areas really cannot aid themselves. Thats what lincoln stood for seven years ago. Theres no question in my mind that Social Security is a fundamental right has democrats are arguing to protect. There is a need of a slave or Free Enterprise. In our system is built upon that. But in some cases, that freight enterprise does not really become pretty and invite corporations that need to have some sort of stimulus from the government to make sure that they are not in doing that freedom that we stand for. Theres no question theres issue of healthcare and issues of job creation and of poverty that i think the democrats traditionally have talked about. Whether or not they been able to reach the country today to give those of the right values that we should be fighting for the country, is the question because they have not one in recent elections. When the values that under the Democratic Party in my argument and in my mind in the 60s when Civil Rights Movement was there and it went medicare was reformed in education came from in order to use the government to help people who might not have had a chance to help themselves. When Social Security was updated and when the civil rights laws were passed and segregation and bring Voting Rights to block the emergence, i think that our country is eventually so proud of and originally initiated under the democrat authority. Even though the republicans can by the side. Some people see this is a sad it. Because it ended so badly. In the death of Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther king and in some ways it was a time when people cared about publications and they were willing to fight for those publications. I look back on the era was some nostalgia. Maybe because i was younger. Host how do you feel about Martin Luther king. Doris Kearns Goodwin i think the beginning there was some sense of tension because Martin Luther king is a leader. Any president feels him and is operating outside of the systems of the government. Ace s m to move more quickly than johnson when he thought he was able to move. But the amazing thing that happened was the civil rights back and safety for an segregation ending in the south. And Martin Luther king was obviously in the movement. Just got such enormous pressure knowing that he did something that he became a real civil rights advocate and 91955 after the first act had passed, he said dont go for the Voting Rights pretty big country has to absorb it and he said this is my moment and it not continue. Im going for it. And in his state of the Union Address he called for a Voting Rights act. And of course Martin Luther king made it come alive. And when he was beaten up by the seven people down there, and the police force, made the country feel a certain sense of wanting to do something to make this right. Thats when Lyndon Johnson called for a joint session of congress and give the great speech called the oak we shall overcome speech. And upon to say my husband work in the speech. I was a graduate student at the time. I thought it was on the great moments in history. Because what happened then was in the middle of his feet he talked about civil rights is not a blackandwhite problem. Is it us to come together in one place. Just as they did in lexington. And then he took up the anthem of the Civil Rights Movement and we shall overcome. That was the anthem here the present no longer fighting against the Civil Rights Movement but actually embracing it at that moment. It is a moment where most emotional moment of my young life. Host had a jimmy choo your husband prince. He came to harvard as i was teaching there any had an office near mine. He claims he knew about me because i work for Lyndon Johnson he asked me out to dinner. And i knew this was the man i wanted to marry. Guest i grew up in brooklyn and went to st. Pauls Catholic Church and the nuns also loved the brooklyn dodgers. Will have to pray for to win the series. [laughter]. I 2001 present bush signed an executive order in all president ial records going back to reagan. Now any request for documents relating to the past presidencies have to be approved by the white house. Will this affect the work of historians like yourself and secondly president lincoln was a brilliant president. I believe he wrote most of his own speeches. But diddly can depend on anyones advisors to the degree that president bush depends on others. Theres been a tendency to hold back the president s paper for more than just seems to be escalating with each year. I remember even when we were working on johnson memoirs, a lot of what was 20 euros and the memoirs would not be open later until years what by two people. So its true that i think historians are going to be prescribed what they do by the dependency of the president s to be closing off records. Eventually the be open abide by that time the event in the understanding of the context might be lessened. Probably will make it harder for historians to get that. I think maybe in some ways even more problematic would be that idea the letters that we talked about earlier, not be in prison. Diaries are not being kept because people are afraid to might be subpoenaed at a certain point. He wont have the intimate record the people had a later time. Host did you have any ongoing russians with the first lady Lady Bird Johnson what kind of relationship did you have in putting the book together. Speech of all not to know her this last years when its going down to the ranch. Eventually stay there. I must say she is one of the classiest women i have ever known. She loved that man and she protected him. She was working on her own memoir the time and she also i would like to believe to be with him because it was a most like i could be a camp counselor. He needed somebody at his side every moment so when i was there, i would like to believe that she felt that she was free to go shopping and going to do something. Because i could keep him company. Why used to hear when hes of this in the white house, he would feel so bad that i expect maybe a car would arrive that persons home to make up for it. He would tease me, he would call me pinko and think i was part of the younger generations but didnt understand why the war in vietnam had to be fought but never with me in spirit. I suspect later in his life, had i known, im sure he never would have talked to me as openly as he did would not have spent that much time with me. Id like to ask the question men respond to your answer. During the 30s, the lead which was the leaders this country tried to finance the overthrow of the administration, try to convince the dictator of this country. Financing machine and germany for the purpose of defeating communist and they have the passion play created. Id like to respond to your answer. You are right things were so confusing at that time, we look at communism as a negative force in the world but theres no question in world war ii, without russia, without the communist availability to join after hitler tried to defeat russia and russia came back on our side, things would happen very different. Passion is what i much greater chance of existing. There were quite here between communist and fascist in the world was in much better off at least one fascism was destroyed only communism stuck to the earlier ideology which has to do with labor just has lincoln had talked about and not gotten into the loss of Civil Liberties, there was something ideologically it will write about at the beginning but it went all awry them. A quick followup. I like to say is the fact that the russians from the fascist, we created that. General motors was building contains in 90 germany during the 30s. Thanks for the call. San diego. Thank you, cspan, for putting this on. I appreciate this opportunity. I think i spent more time trying to get through to you guys that i have trying to get through to a rock concert in my ears. [laughter] ms. Goodwin, thank you for taking my call. I think working on a documentary about an event that occurred los angeles, specifically june 23, 1967. President johnson had come to los angeles to kick off his democratic fundraiser for his reelection campaign. Been working on this for about four years so if you are an inspiration to me the way stick with a story for so long, human body the person. My question to you, do you have any event, this was known as the sentry gaza protest also known as bloody friday. I happen to be a ten month old baby at this event. Theres a picture published of me in the free press it seemed to be Police Batons coming over my baby carriage and my mom sending them off. I know specifically white house documents that one of these were sent off to the white house because the president s statement was that he didnt see the civil unrest occurring outside the sentry plaza hotel. I was wondering if you have any personal knowledge of this event and or what is your opinion on the effect of the Antiwar Movement demonstrations and johnsons decision not to run again in march 68. I dont know specifically about that but theres no question that you are right, the antiwar demonstrations were increasing and 67 and 68. I think johnson felt unable to go around the country in any freeway and he was limited to a certain extent to going to camps when he gave speeches and not being able to be as free as he was before that. Im sure that contributed to his feelings that if you were going to run against and go around the country campaigning, it would be a very difficult, it was hard to see the signs. How many kids did you kill today . The movement had grown in intensity and he knew he lost a large part of the American People and thats probably what i think made him withdraw. Walter turned against the war saying it was a stalemate johnson said middle america. But even before that, he had seen massive demonstrations and he must have known it would impede any chance he had to go around the country. He loved the campaign and 64, his energy was phenomenal. He would stay up until 3 00 a. M. Even if there is just three people left in a crowded and couldnt get the energy back from the crowd because he wouldnt be able to go around the country again. The Antiwar Movement not only because it produced mccarthy the primary canopy and he didnt want to run against kennedy, the fact that demonstrations were taking place had something to do with withdrawing so it was important. A recent segment lived left an impression to get his father to resign his position on the Supreme Court to nominate marshall was an amazing tape. I hadnt known that tape before but Lyndon Johnson talked to don clark and he wants to put ramsey on but he wants to get tom clark off. He wanted to get tom clark off their mostly. He said id like to get you into this but i cant quite make it happen if your father is on the court because of conflict of interest. Next thing you know, ramsey talked to his father and he decides he will retire even though he wasnt that old to give his son a chance. Its one way hes playing three different people. Its a good goal. You recording a saying, some people who going to public light, if they go in needing the applause of thousands, theyre never going to work out in the end because they dont know who they are apart from the crowd. Did johnson have this enormous hole inside that needed to be filled by the applause of the people. In a system like ours where everybody goes up and down, even the best president s go through tough interest, if thats whats holding you up, its owing to not sustain your. Want to the office and power for accomplishing something that would stand the test of time some of the people who turned against him or failed in a certain sense, he could be driven by the larger. He did have larger goals in mind and i think he became a stronger person but up until that time, he seemed to be the kind of person who needed to have that support from the people develop a need inside that was not quite there. Thank you for taking my call. How are you able, in writing your book on lincoln, to stay on your topic when there are so many other interests to admit he didnt find yourself owing off on tangents . Are you going to do a book signing care . Im coming i think there were 12. I cant wait to see the new library. I was there the date donald in the early stages i cant wait to see the finished product. It sounds amazing. You do get off on tangents and you get involved with everybodys life and you have to make sure that you dont let the narrative be destroyed as a result. Doctor when she was 16, she wanted to be a writer so she started to keep a diary or diary is wonderful. Young girls diary, she could sit until shes 21 and antibiotic 21. She didnt think she even wanted to get married because she thought you couldnt be in a career as a writer and be married. I was interested in this gross fantasy in her mother and they are important to my story but not as important, as i was going to make them. Sometimes i would go halfandhalf and then you finally have to decide you have to cut back. Cases daughter, she is an interesting sad creature who is the most beautiful woman of her age. She marries a wealthy man to help her father and i found love letters tweet her and her husband and he turned out to be an alcoholic and abused her. I found those letters as well. All of that was passed my book so its like one paragraph in the epilogue but you do keep involving yourself and other people in the key of the narrative, you have to decide when to introduce them and when to cut them out and take some other day i might write about these people i could talk about them with my friends but i put the full story here, the book will not want to be 700 but it would be 12,000 and nobody will pick up. Is a photograph of the scene in the book, he said i heard a number of accounts on what secretary said when lincoln passed away. One that now he belongs to the angels. Twentyfour hours, was reported now he belongs to the ages. That is true. Or five different accounts. Some say he now belongs to the ages, now he belongs to the ages and its a moment, just as the picture where you are showing a lot of people were there that night after he was assassinated, they carried him across the street and the members of his cabinet came and his friends but at the end, more people claimed they were there and actually work there. The moment where everybody wants to be a big event they were teasing the room could not possibly have kept all those people together. You can imagine whatever was said that night gets reported in the newspaper and it goes down and nobody is exactly clear but the words we now remember are now he belongs to the ages which is a wonderful tribute given his desire to remember after he di died. My first introduction to you was through the baseball series. I was wondering, what was your impression of the project . Burns is a passionate and enthusiastic character that he makes all of the things he does comes alive. He came to see me because he knew he was going to be making brooklyn dodgers and red sox big parts of his series on facebook given such underdogs they were in patches and drama. He knew i had been fans of the dodgers and red sox. I had no idea when he came, we talked maybe an hour or an hour and a half you think youre going to be on like a half a minute or two so i told him everything about old boyfriends i liked, i gave up because they didnt like baseball. Somehow all these things will put on the air but it was a wonderful expense. The interesting thing, my book on roosevelt came out the same year his documentary on facebook came out and for everywhere i went to talk about roosevelt, people would ask me about facebook because they would see his documentary and was that response our people, a lot of women coming up to me and saying we had a similar relationship with our father, he taught me how to keep score. People talk about their memories growing up in the 50s in a similar town to the one i had grown up in and i would have never written a memoir otherwise. I decided to write about growing up and look for the dodgers because of this documentary. He gave me so much more pressure than i could have a possibly imagine to recreate that time in my life and anyone who grew up in the 50s in a suburb, it was something almost universal about our lives, being out on the streets, having a bicycle kickstand, he didnt have to have a lock on it. Loving baseball as we did. It turns out the memoir struck a chord, not because it was my story because it turned out to be a lot of other stories as well. I never would have done it without him. Charlie epics. Hes gone down in history. The part in the 1912 from it was one of the smallest and most intimate and wonderful parts that ever existed. New york city. My question is for missus goodwin, the contract between lincoln who had little formal education, no wealth or privilege in his background, who wrote incredibly beautiful speeches and bettors, many of which had been quoted this afternoon and the current chief executive who comes from a background of wealth and privilege, private school, Yell University who seems unable to write a simple sentence, this seems to be a trend in politics today, we dont have any great speakers or writers. Im curious about that. One of the things that struck me about lincolns Early Education compared to educational systems today, he didnt have a lick of education but he was deep in the things he read. As a young child, he had to scour the countryside for books. I think he could get his hands on, he would read. Its some of the best literature in our history, he read the king james bible, he read poetry so these cadences got into his soul his heart and allowed him to become, he had extremely timely to be a great writer. In some ways, literature allowed him to transcend his surroundings. Emily dickinson once said it takes us plans away. Through literature, he was able to cope with shakespeare even though he never went there. Went to spain and the love of books was so much a part of him that because it was selftaught, i think it got in to his soul in a way. It is so broad, students take so many different courses and fragments of one course or another maybe they dont get as deep a feeling for the literature of a few great things as they might and certainly if lincoln did in the old days. He just wrote and edited and wrote, it was part of a muscle and him from the time he was a child developed more and more. I think what happens today, somebody with just boss so they are not doing it themselves in the same way. Theyre not Getting Better because it is in part of their important but it is important because communicating to the country being able to give them a sense of where you are taking them remains a central 12 for a president and television cant take away from the words, the words have to be there. Roosevelt whats been, i always thought he was on the radio every week like our current president chart. He gave about 33 in his 12 years. Only two or three a year because he said he worked so hard, it was taking a whole week out of his presidency to make sure if the words were right. Not just for our president but our young people is what we need now. Saturday morning, he received a phone call early in the day, your father says my pal is on. My pal is on. What happened . My mother had this fever as a child and we can heart, several heart attacks when i was growing up. I never thought she would die. She died in her sleep that night. When youre a child, 15 years old, i think the hardest thing is that you cant imagine right away that it has happened. My sister was there and my wonderful little sister who stayed home with our family, she was a nurse in new york at the time. She could help take care of me. She became a second mother to me in many ways but in a sense, we are that age, you dont appreciate the loss. I had my own children, never would be able to check my mother for them. They never knew my father either. The older you get, the more you realize how devastating it is to lose a parent about age. Somehow you think, you just force yourself to have life form. Back in high school difference and later it was more that i realized how much it affected my life. He talked about how your sister was embarrassed when your mom was pregnant with you. I was a late child in the family. When sister was 15 and one was ten when i was born. He must have thought one of these old parents doing having another kid . Thank god my mother did get pregnant, i was glad for the. [laughter] why do you believe there is animosity between Lyndon Johnson and Robert Kennedy . Was a political x personalities, personal problems . Have you considered, i left your book with kennedy, have you considered writing a book about president kennedy . Apathy animosity between kennedy was partly personal and partly political. They hated each other somehow. I think that was visceral. They come up against somebody and you cant stand them. It is exacerbated by the fact that when johnson was made Vice President , he had been such a pal for majority leader and he felt his left out of the loop on all decisions that kennedy was making. He didnt want to blame kennedy, he liked kennedy. The two of them got along fairly well. Kennedy liked listening to johnsons stories, but then when he wasnt getting invited to meetings or decisions, he always blamed bobby. He thought bobby was keeping them out of the meetings. Then when he became president , i think bobby felt somehow johnson was upstaging his brother. He become an important president and therefore, some house is brothers history could be lessened. Bobby clings to the senate and potentially running for presidency, it only makes it worse there was no love left between them. My book ended with president kennedy becoming president and it didnt go any further. There are so many default books written about his presidency, i have to figure out a different way into it if i were to follow up with that. I have three questions. Can you name the current senator resembling a true democrat from the 60s . Was president lincoln, is it true he was the father of the modern day income tax mostly for defense of our country and not really social programs . The last one, do you think lincoln and Martin Luther king would be proud of black americans since of Civil Rights Movement ending with everything . It seems to me they are squandering, they are still fighting for civil rights instead of taking the opportunities given to them. I think the hardest thing for civil rights leaders now is after the pipe for segregation and after the Voting Rights act was put into play, to argue about education and poverty is so much more scattered, its harder to have a focus for. I think thats part of why we havent seen the same kind of dramatic leadership we had in the 60s. I suspect the times have made the much harder, we havent seen great leaders anywhere for the last few years so its probably not fair to blame black leaders anymore than it is in general. Think about looking who that embodies the values from democrats, republicans, the most important think lincoln had was this extraordinary empathy i was able to see both sides of an issue. He gave a great speech when he was a young man in which he argues, ever going to change people who are drinking or those who suffer drink are denouncing them by using though. He calls to understand, the best way into a persons heart is to understand them if not simply shun. Mental retreat within themselves. We need not somebody who is an activist democrat or remark about somebody who can understand both sides are coming from. The problem now is that our system makes it less likely. The primaries reward people with extreme positions on either side. Television loves people work counter who can stay and say exactly what they feel. They look at people like john mccain, one of the people trying to understand the democrats are even though hes republican. Need democrats who can understand republicans because we never going to get anywhere with this denunciation which is where our politics are today. Lincoln would be very sad about that i think. I had the great pleasure of listening to you speak, it was a wonderful experience. My question is about mary lincoln and how she was treated by those colleagues and supporters of lincoln after he was assassinated. Also, if you came across your research, any information about Abraham Lincoln from an ancestor of mine who reportedly was a close friend of mary lincoln. There is an apron lincoln and he was a new yorker and he supported mary after incan died. Always worried about whether she had enough money to exist and she wrote lots of friendly letters to and from lincoln. You should look for them collection pickups will find your ancestor an interesting character. This happen . Even when she became first lady, there was no place for her to find footing. The southerners disrupted her because she was married to Abraham Lincoln, northerners disrupted her because she had poor confederate brothers in the confederate army. Westerners and easterners she was crude because she was a westerner so she tried to redecorate the white house and make it a symbol of the union as the one contribution to his presidency. At the time they didnt have enough money for wiccans, it seems like the wrong thing to send money. Her reputation during his presidency was really hurt a lot. When he died, there wasnt the same while to help her. It seemed unfair, they gave a house, they were providing pensions for others they didnt, they finally had to fight to give mary a pension. Think it was in part because she had breast bad press. She felt they owed it to her afterwards and she was so worried about money and unwisely spending it, she made manicdepressive estimates, her son. She needs to protect her put her in a silent, she was able to get out, proving she was not mentally ill but lived in springfield. There is a ball that took place shortly before they passed away. I was that significant in your book . Mary was trying to figure out a new social function that would be dramatic for the white house. They were open to anybody so they would be crude affairs they come in sidebyside. She had an invitation only ball the invitation became the hottest in washington. It is an exciting event. Right before the event, the cap very sick. She thought she should cancel the ball but lincoln decided the doctor had said they were recovering it would be all right. So they help the box. But during that night, which should have been her child from everybody said it was a great innovation, she kept going up and when lily died not long after, she felt it was her pride and desire to do these things in the white house and somehow it offended god and it ended up with a died. Its a terrible memory even though it was a triumph moment. You are a wonderful speaker. I would like to ask you a few questions. Have you ever thought of recording some of the interesting stories of history because youre so adept to describing them. The second question, do you think the war in iraq is actually a skirmish, and the larger conflict between islam and christianity which might eventually end the war . As far as recording the stories, theres a wonderful thing about history, whether i am part of it or not, it is a great thing to allow people to voice and they are doing more and more with politicians and living people. Even during world war ii, oral history done with women living in the histories. You could never get them later and they are in their own voices in the oral histories get transcribed. The general idea of transcribing stories is critical for history. Remember hearing factory workers talk, when they came from after world war ii and they saw their wives who had been working independently factories adding a check, what are you doing . Youve never written a check before. It felt like they had become oak trees and their husbands couldnt deal with it when i came home. So many of the stories that make up the best part of history, between people thank them i am in favor of oral history whether i do it or not. Theres no question as far as your second idea, we are in something large right now between not just our country but between democracy and islam and weve got to hope that it doesnt become a larger work because theres nothing more frightening as there has been in history when a war becomes religious war and overtones about where theres no sense of compromised possible, we could be in for a long and bad time. Weve got to hope it doesnt escalate to Something Like that. There are elements already but hopefully we will avoid that. I live in illinois. I want to say im a huge fan of cspan book tv. Thank you for the opportunity to ask this question, the research youve done on the many president youve examined whether you been able to identify any of the presidencies particularly interested in that of Lyndon Johnson. I enjoyed your book with Lyndon Johnson in the American Dream. Its probably not confined to Lyndon Johnson. When things get tough for president , what seems to happen is they hunkered down with the people who support their views. When the vietnam pork began to be in the country stopped supporting it, rather than reaching out for opponents, rather than reaching out to the congressman and senators might have given him different perspective on what to do in the work, there is a natural tendency to surround himself with the people who agreed with him that only means you for that yourself deeper into a hole. It probably has relevance today, when things are difficult, the time is there to reach out to people who disagree with you, who can debate and argue with you too can seek other views and maybe get out of the hole that you are in. What surprised you the most in putting this Team Together . The most superficial think, having seen this and eyes lincoln had, having known about his temperament, i had no idea how dynamic a personality he had. Im sure scholars who studied him your whole life understood that but he ended up being much more vital and alive to me. I even teased he seemed even sexy in one of the pictures. Theres a picture for that terrible beard. Its not a rugged base, i think page 200 disheveled hair, maybe i liked that kind of hair because my husband has disheveled hair. Its not the image we have with think of him in the monument. As i read further, he could start a Cabinet Meeting for the funny story, he could relax people by telling a joke and the jokes were so funny and amusing and they had something to do with whats going on, there was a lift force in him i hadnt suspected. I knew i respected him and admired him but i didnt realize i would feel affection for him. A political genius of Abraham Lincoln. A complete list of all of her works available at booktv. Org. Great fun. Thank you. Please come back again. I love to. Youre watching tv on cspan2. Television for serious readers. Every saturday evening the summer, we are taking the opportunity to show you several hours of programs from our archives with the wellknown author. Tonight its with historian doris goodwin. Her books include a look at president lincolns cabinet, personal and political life of president Lyndon Johnson and her own memoir focuses on her love of baseball. Coming up next, the 2013 miami book fair, she discusses her book on the relationship between theater roosevelt and william rd