Taught nonfiction authors about their latest works. Hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us. Arthur, thank you for being here and cspan, thank you for letting me interview you about this book. Last time we did this show was when we were talking a about the best seller. Guest you asked a lot of hard questions and i plan to wreak if the favor. Host you are on the internet 50s and the people have already heard your introduction so i wont redo all of it, but you are a freakisly productive. If you have accomplisheyou havee globally renowned musician who then laid down and became an academic and behavioral social scientist and lots of people cite your work and happiness studies over time. National bestsellers and anyone onto his third career with a think tank of the American Enterprise institute thats important in washington, d. C. And beyond if you take it to new heights and raised a lot more resources and hired interesting people and now you are about to transition to a four curvier output level career and as you are making the transition, you write this new book love your enemies how decent people can save america from the culture of contempt so thank you for sharing with us today. I want to start by having you unpack for us what is contempt and how is it different from anger . Guest people often see this in american Politics Today or ideological differences in general whether it is any dimension, religious or social that traditionally politics, that americans are too angry with each other and that isnt right. Anger is a hot emotion. The problem that we have today is that we have too much of the 19th century philosopher he called it contempt, the conviction of other worthlessness of a human being. It is a cold emotion that says i dont care about you. It takes anger and it kind of mixes discussed into it making it a compound toxic and theres a lot of social Science Research that shows when you treat somebody with contempt, that person will never forgive you if. Theres a guy that teaches at the University Seattle who is the worlds leading expert in reconciliation and he can counsel for one hour, just interview that made no with 94 accuracy. He is uncanny and he fought and what he is looking for signs of contempt, eye rolling, sarcasm, i. E. Rolling, dismissal, so that is the way also for americans to hate each other and for ordinary citizens to not listen to each other and one in six americans have stopped talking to a Family Member or close friend of the president ial election and that isnt because of anger, that is because of contempt. Host but to stay with the analog. If you are successful diagnosing this and able to save some of these marriages, but is the magic for him an and the analoge tanalog towhat you think your qr the project. Guest he has thousands and of the way hthe way he does thay inducing people to stop contempt because it is and wha isnt whay really feel. Most couples they do love each other, but theyve go gotten ino an unproductive form of communication where they roll their eyes or say what theyve heard, they criticize constantly, but that isnt what is on their heart, the problem is to get into a cycle you criticize me and i criticize you. So what he does as he makes them stop. One of the things he will say is they need to just say five living things for every care system and its weird because when couples are ready to divorce they cant think of anything. But with love to cant think of anything to criticize so he makes them go back to when they were first in love. Some carry around notebooks and write on things they are going to save before they can get to the criticism. This radically changes the whole form of criticism. We need to break the habit of talking to each other with income debate co contempt. You and i are on social media. The rate i may talk to be a good joke with each other that we have an audience of hundreds of thousands of people watching us at joking around. The problem is that we dont know each other and those are trashing each other and talking with contempt. You are an idiot, that is the stupidest thing ive ever heard. That is the discourse weve gotten into. Somebody said something i disagree with and i rolled my eyes. Im guilty then. I dont want to be that way and that is what breaks them on a citizenship is the ability to listen to each other. We dont need to agree. Agreement is bad in a kind of monopoly. We dont need to disagree less, we need to disagree better and that means breaking the habit of contempt like couples do when they figure out how to get back together again. Host i want to come back to that later but first you use the word addiction a little bit ago, you talked about how we have become a big did to them. I dont want to talk about that as a way to get social media yet, but the addiction habit to complete addiction habit i want to ask you a bit to distinguish them as well. What is it to be addicted to contempt . Guest it is a manner of communicating and speaking in a manner of expressing your thoughts. It is a way to sort of say what you think and if that habit can be an addiction insofar as it passes by. The part of your brain that processes the emotions. On the contrary there is a deep part of the brain called the nucleus about the size of a walnut that involves more than a million years ago and its part of the sport of lizard apricot is, processing rewards and stay staying alive. Part of what happens is it feels kind of gradient user to build a habit. Whether it is a chemical or whether it is communicative, i do something and get the reaction i like it, the nucleus is going to start programming that into your brain. That is how it works. When you find yourself communicating in a particular way to find results saying some them over and over again. That isnt being processed by your conscious brain is by your unconscious brain. Thats the secret to break habits. You need to get a lot of time, when yotimes,when you are stimuo something you can respond. If your mom says count to ten if you are angry, extend the time between stimulus and response so that you can retrain your nucleus and get past this lizard brain by basically saying i feel this, this is how im going to react, but i am going to react this way instead. And when you do that, you get a different kind of reward. That is what they are telling these couples to do. Hes making them wait before they criticize by saying loving things. Things. That is reprogramming the nucleus incumbent and we can do the same thing by not responding when we get an email that we dont like or a message on facebook or we hear somebody Say Something that we disagree with strongly to wait before we react and sent we consciously put something in a positive instead of negative and get the reaction to that and that is a large part of what im talking about in this book. Host before we get to the cultural and Public Square implications date of the marriage piece, is it possible to retrain yourself to do that no matter how long that happens . How optimistic are you about that as a successful strategy to counter ten . Its one thing to do that if you have that sort of romantic infatuated phase early on as a different thing than that of early sort of overwhelming. You can retrain those habits if you get into bad habits of six months and, six years still. 60 years. I do believe it because i have actually seen examples of it, but no one is going to claim that its easy. If youve done something for six days or 60 days, weve talked about that, how the habits are virtues and you are more sophisticated on this stuff than i am. So, we know that the longer that you ingrain something the harder it is to break. But if you want to be a better leader or a more unifying leader, by the way, why, because they want to be a more persuasive leader. In the Politics Today we are not getting any place because they are locked down in standoff. Obviously if someone walks away they have to be more persuasive. Treating people with contempt wont do it because nobody in history has ever entered into this. If you want to go with them, they are practical but youve got to do something differently. You can be the master of your results and greek these habits. Weve got the evidence in this book that not doing that, behaving in a different way will make you persuasive then ultimately more persuasive. If its within 60 years its going to be harder but you can do it. Host you mentioned some of the things you pray about and use it one of the things you do is pray for oxytocin, the state of the brain for a minute. Why do you do that and what does that mean . Guest it is a hormone, it is a neurotransmitter and its often called the love molecule. Its interesting coming though, in 69 Richard Nixon commissioned a study for the corporation because there was a huge problem going on in the 20 of the soldiers in vietnam were a bit good to hear when. No detox, zero. We get the answer when we are talked to beat fo dave for talko anyone they will call you it feels like you are being enveloped in love. That is how harrowing appeals. When you come home you do get enveloped. We found out decades later what was happening its stimulated and its called oxytocin and those receptors are fueled and filled by harrowing so that is what gives you the simulation and its preparing something broke in. They are selfmedicating in a way so that the key thing about oxytocin when you see your kids and wife, remember the first time you helped deliver your children and they make you feel like youre hoping that you are really not. The first time you looked and it feels like something popped in your brain when you see your parents after a long time and your wife. Thats gods way of helping us to bond to each other in this miraculous way and this is something we talk about and about because when we bond more, we get our pleasure if it stimulates us to a work for unity, that is why i think god for oxytocin. Host this is earlier than i want to get swallowed by social media but lets stay there for a second. That requires it to be used as a supplement to the human relationships if it is going to complement what you said to the substitute for the relationships. If it is positive or negative, how could this possibly work for the theory of a pop of bonding that the more you ignore me bs in technology. Guest it is a problem and what we need there is the key thing for my money as the senator writing books we do work in history in the social sciencl science and how it is such that it can be met life enhancing thats what i got for your book. In the neuroscience of this stuff is understanding what we cannot substitute for human relationships, for practica docl in person relationships and social media cannot be done because the human relationships that we get involved the oxytocin and looking into each otherothers eyes and that is ht was developed. We dont have that evolution or about 100 of 500,000 years of twitter for us to develop the neurological link of one to another. I think that is great happy to see this because as a flesh and blood person the problem is among strangers they cannot get that done and as a result of it doesnt give you the biochemical to meet your needs and its a contempt of machine because it reduces the handle and reduces you to something the delay less than human and it is anonymous. Host you have been putting out practical things mostly from this book but ways to tackle the content using the media that is largely at least in the political space its main ingredient seems to be contempt. How can we solve this problem unless everybody on plugs because i dont think that you are recommending that. Guest even if i did it wouldnt be practical. It isnt going to have been in the meantime, but one thing i do recommend this people think about the social media behavior and essayist is complementing my facfaith or substituting the rel relationships and you can see both. They are pretty good on social media and use it to set up where are they going to meet for example my oldest son uses facebook and they will have a meeting for something but they do not use it as a substitute for personal relationships. To get an oxytocin deficit Legislature Im going to be more contemptuous and less successful and thats bad. Weve got to make sure it is a complement for the relationships and i recommend talking with your friends you see regularly and not others. The other thing is to try to use it and this is my experiment so we follow each other do notice that i am not going to say mean things on twitter. For every one thing that i say that is as a joke or critical d what i find is i am committing myself to using it as a positive media to get 50 million followers because it is a lot more interesting than trying to get the dopamine ahead which is a transmitter that gets the reward when you get stimulated in a way that is positive or negative but you see when somebody is part of that. But i have to say twitter doesnt bum me out because im participating in the way that i feel like i am lifting other people up. Host you mentioned the leaders that succeed with the two different tactics in this book. You unpack coercive leadership and authoritative leadership, which i think could also be called aspirational. He also said your pessimistic. And dont we see more of that now . Guest this is language that is taken from harvard. He has done work on thousands of ceos and at the appointed leaders and what he says as he is categorized them using the Factor Analysis but that is an important. He breaks them up into different kinds of leaders and on the one end it there is the coercive and that is kind of selfexplanatory. They are the bullies, the offers, become come tempters. What we see in the media or the other authoritative leaders but basically it dont they come with me now but if you see a Better Future they are when some and make people want to follow them. Theyve have a lot of followers but they dont last for long and when they go down the good on ugly. But this isnt the case in these countries. France is a populist place and as a result of coercive and they tend to hang on for a lot longer but not in the United States so we see the coercive leadership tends to be successful in the 2015 years after the crisis because the financial crisis with th the gut that doesnt cre the Economic Program for creeds and Even Economic growth at and about 20 of the economic distribution. It makes perfect sense theres a lot of research that shows that support for these parties. Exactly what we are seeing now but then it ends badly and they have authoritative leaders with an opportunity. I believe we have a Market Opportunity and here is the statistic i want to share. Weve talked about this before and i am excited and happy about this. There is a group called more in common in the United States and britain. They find 93 of americans hate how its becoming as a country. They are profiting from it and getting famous and powerful and rich indicating and track clicks or maybe sociopathic personalities but the 93 of that which is most people watching us right now and demand it be i know for sure we want Something Better and that is a Market Opportunity for the authoritative leadership. It takes longer and more skill but i like that more than the 7 . Host one of the reasons we see so much contemplate out even when we know it is about how that for us continuing again and again, shortly it seems to be because the market is the opposite we send back to the media as these are the kind of stories they want. So, like the 93 may be putting on rosecolored glasses when asking them to question what is borne out in their behavior is that they all kind of like that put down. Guest that is possible. But it makes us unhappy and the Research Shows when people are dissipating in the climate of content either being treated with contempt or others with contempt and the stress hormone that makes people feel lonely or into these are all things you see. They feel lonely and depressed and this isnt related to that of the deal an political and ideological debate so we are in kind of a sub optimal equilibrium because we have the leaders in the media and on campuses and in politics and in entertainment who are making a big profit by being the 7 and if that is all youve got you are going to take one side or the other. But that youre looking for Something Better and this is the reason ive been so bullish on the political life is because you are not that one guy in the whole state of nebraska. This is what is so good when i hear you talk because you are the one for the 93 and we need more people like this. This is a moment waiting to happen. Its time to stand up to 7 and say i will take it and by the way i am addicted. I am an addict but there are a lot of product said this is another point of there are a lot of products we consume regularly and patronize to great effect that we hate. One of the reasons the Cigarette Companies are trying to make them less dangerous and less addictive is because people started to figure out tobacco is something people are attuned to spend a lot of money on but they didnt like it because it was hurting them. That is the product that we have in the contemptuous Politics Today. And the vehicle like social media we do it all the time. We are stuck on it but they dont like our lives and want Something Better and they are waiting for Something Better. Host the book is filled with fascinating social Science Research. It leads to a lot of envy and contempt is the product of these habits. Do a little more history for us. 30 years ago there wasnt as much contempt as there is today. What arwhatever the historical s that led us to get here. Why did we get into this vicious cycle. Guest it isnt to say we are at an alltime high. There is a lot that the text could use and pretty easy to manipulate. We are pulverized as we were at any time since the American Civil War however youve seen the waxing and waning of the highly contemptuous politics and what you see is a general following year to ten or 15 year cycle of the populism and a populist political rhetoric is almost always contemptuous. Its almost always impossible to be very positive. Now i am encouraging people in this book and in this interview in our time together is to be positive. We have the authoritative in a way to rip the 93 but that isnt how we see it takes form so theres a lot of historical trends that have happened along the way. We see things like this, the late 19th century were 1892 in 1896 we have the financial crisis one on the back of the other because of the railroad bustamante the result is the surge of popularity of William Jennings bryan by candidate for president in 1896, 1900. Host he was a contemporary of figure talking all the time about the foreigners taking stuff and rich bankers and antiestablishment. Really super populist and actually pretty hateful and his policies were pretty bad. He was contemptuous. There isnt anything new under the sun. Host im not going to join in on the parading of him in this speech that he is one of the nebraska suns with a whole lot of angry rhetoric. I admire your appreciation. There is no nebraska politician that is more different than jennings bryan. Guest theres a whole bunch of stuff we could say about it being different. Host with specific to history. Your optimism about what comes next is partly driven by a pretty charitable anthropology that americans are going to learn what happened into going to the concluding chapters of the book where you have the rules because theres a whole bunch of really meaty stuff that they should go to but i think that one of the criticisms of the book that i suspect is that it hits the bestseller list next week ende and the week after thu will hear people say is wait a minute, contempt as a habit for people that have ideas that are policy ideas, thats pretty stupid but what if the idea is that you are critiquing horror from people that are contemptible, is there a moral relativism complicit in the argument iargument and arent yg that we shouldnt regard anybody else as really terrible ideas . Guest it is a criticism but im going to hear a lot and i have heard and ive wrestled with this because i have treated people with contempt, and ive paid about that. At least when we are talking about this and im not going to break into Foreign Policy and the whole thing because i dont know how i feel about that. Thats what ive done wrong in treating other people with contempt is not suffocating people from their ideas. I think that there are two double ideas. I think that there are peaceful ideas, but i dont think that there has been a good reentry of people with contempt. I think that there is reason for the repair of other ideas. Theres reason to go hammer and tongs. Im all about disagreements because the competition of ideas is what is the most fundamentalist of the society and what separates us from china we can have these disagreements and i loved disagreements. That is the essence of avoiding stagnation and becoming an excellenexcellent countries, sos keep disagreeing about what disagreed this arrest late but letearnestly butlets say i dir idea and so you are a worthless person and that it didnt make the distinction early enough in my career and i wish i had him by goinand igoing to do that fof my life. Now there is a practical reason and i said before, nobody in history has ever been persuaded by hatred, its never happened. Theres a social Science Research that talks to the boomerang effect where you are likely to make it more radical. The second reason is moral and the story by telling the book about this rally, i am politically conservative and i was talking about this and i agreed when i sit in the middle of the speech for whatever reason its not forget the people that are here because of the political progressives and i want you to remember youre not stupid or evil, they are just americans who disagree with us and this lady says i think [inaudible] she was talking about my family and friends and i took it personally said they would take more reason not to treat people with contempt. It is a practical thing but also moral and us of that is the key thing to keep in mind is dont treat other people with contempt. Super get their ideas from them and remember they want the wane same things that you do for themselves and they want to support their families and their kids to grow up in safety and security. Most of them the vast majority they want to help the poor to establish that center and disagreed about the ways that its needed. They will listen to the ways that you disagree and will be able to listen to your ideas with the partisan myths. In the 93 if the percentage i like to work with because that is where we get the margin host i want to underscore two things you said because they come out again and again in the buck. First you say that you observe the beaters disagree better not disagree less. A really basic point once used when in the sea. Ive heard you make this case a bunch of times and stated it so clearly in the book i recommend everybody read this if for no other reason other than to internalize that you believe in a healthy and aggressive marketplace of ideas. What are the rules for how they treat each other in that competition. It is and whether it will be constructive or not. That isnt a good versus evil conversation that is practical versus impractical and you start with an assumption about the person youre arguing with. You want us to get better at how we do with the second is premised on the theory that you have of the motive. You talk about other peoples motives and think we need to relearn our habits about how we ascribe motives. Host the weak argument that we make into political ideology today is a motive to the other person. I know what you really want and the funniest thing is that liberals and conservatives to this unequal measure and it isnt both sides at all. And i see this constantly. They want to lower taxes. And i hear all the time from politicians when they talk about the sort of crowds and people firing them up. They want to keep people poor and dependent and voting democrat forever. It is reprehensible or we dont know. The average liberal makes 250,000 a year more. 2. 5 . The average conservative thinks 40 of liberals are, its 6 . If we dont know anything about each other, how will we know anything about each others motives so assuming a motives on the other side is a big mistake in the weekly to arguing that the best way to start contemptuously and make sure you persuade nobody and ultimately as such the best way to lose so that is one of the things i mention in again and again. Take peoples arguments on their face and ask people about what the motive is. I think the data that shows this is the bottom rungs of the latter and iladder and it hurtst the bottom of the Income Distribution and i would think the argument is just populism, pandering to the crowd, making people think the government can pay poor people more and make the Companies Pay more. You know it wont work if you are cynical about it and i thought about it. That isnt it at all. Ive had conversations with a bunch of my liberal friends. They want to make pay and be able to support themselves and their families better. This is what conservatives and liberals have in common, they want more dignity in the work and they want their work to pay more. Once i recognize that i cant say i understand your motive and they had her better way of getting around it. What is the category that you talk about in all of the words you are using and willing to use about the 7 on is a big part of the problem is although there are more than two sides on the policy continuum would if there is a second dimension we are missing which is the spokespeople on tv all the time it aif the people running for elected office trying to build a new app and raise money for the rotary club what is a lot of the leaders on both sides are as coercive as some of the grassroots americans as i believe they are. You say that the people that are manipulating other people and it makes me sound i think im actually treating the 7 with contempt and i shouldnt do that either so i have to reassess that. This is good for me. So, what about that, but if the leaders are doing that and we dont have to change pleaders when they have so much leverage over us. I think they are in money and power and fame and it is a rewarding thing. They are lucrative cable tv contracts singing every night you go on tv and you are right if youre watching and then once you are not watching they are stupid and evil. That is a big business or your favorite call. Almost always her favorite opinion columnist is going to be someone who scratches your confirmation bias and assist you are right. Thats how you get a lot of popularity but that is good news i think. The people that are to be the leaders most of them are not, they are actually market followers. People who say they are leaders by following his market signals of contempt and hatred and anger mixed with disgust they are actually following what they think people are willing to put up with a bigger going to make an addictive drug, they are not leaders, they are market followers and theres a bunch of people addicted and will continue buying it. Leaders say heres how you can stop being at the event had a better world and a better life and that is what they need. So the political movements tend to be forming around parades already going down the street. People jumping out in front saying we need a change of parade and that is what this book is about is how can we make it better for a Better Destination and that the followers who call themselves leaders. Host lets change gears a little bit and go to the chapters on storytelling. They think the more and more abstract and you make an argument that the people that are really persuasive, the people that changed the world tend to be those that get the storytelling so what is the lesson for the leaders i and how they should tell stories and how are you using social Science Research this point about the storytelling . Guest i have become a big believe for a mac becaus minutet took a long time to figure it out. They systematically learn in a very strange ways only shared by about five or 10 of the population that is to say there was a theory and then a bunch of evidence that supports the theory. We suffered through a great many years of the phd theory and that is how we learn that it turns out ordinary humans you and i have had to retrain ourselves as people who are trying to talk to big groups of people to talk about examples and then say what do we learn from these lessons. That is the whole idea of teaching through parables. This is how the parable teaching works. Now when the new Brain Science were is a neuroscientist has done brain scans of people listening to stories and telling stories. When you tell somebody a story that persons brain waves will walk onto your pattern. Basically when you say are you on my wavelength that is what you mean is too told the story especially one with characters and the best one to be in the trajectory as you. The listeners can get ahead of you and that is how they learn. If you want somebody to absorb the big ideas you need to use stories. There is no other way. Host what if america doesnt share enough pre political ideas in common to make this fixable . You are not writing about politics narratively but learning about the Public Square much more broadly that we know w that there are all of these things about Human Dignity that you believe and you hope is to believe that when we get into the identity politics feels like people are saying she has good ideas how we shouldnt disparage each other about the goals but when we get to the upstream for the policy stuff into the way that it is first formed we have to believe things in common and that the identity Politics Movement which i used to confess as a conservative i thought was mostly a challenge in the problem on the left and kauai increasingly recognized as a whole bunch of identity politics on the right as well, explain why you are still optimistic in the face of the politics and seemed to be going upstream from policy to identity questions and get in a way that looks less and less reckons like reconcilable therefore you are not as worried about it as i might be. Guest ive talked at the university and i go back and teach again and i see whats happened in the University Campuses but also in the american politics taking one aspect that your story saying who here is who i am and here is who you are not or reducing other people because of who they are it is a very descriptive thing to do any form of manipulative power and a classic 7 of trick and saying we are at this, they are not and that is why they are the enemy. They will use a kind of bridging identity. Ive done this and these experiments where they bring people together and disagree diy via windley on some of that, but democrats and republicans are really on the opposite side of the spectrum and i want to talk and observe so i can understand told each other about your kids. The influence of school and how they confuse their children and whether they are happy and understand each other and the bridging identity is something we have in common as opposed to something that rips us apart. Everybody watching this is a leadeas aleader and they can use identities. Lets linked together to discuss that. Host we are going to run out of time soon but the subtitle is how decent people can save america from the culture of contempt. You do not mean that 320 million americans that are so fractured that the decent people are somehow out of the mainstream. You mean these leaders in every community. Unpack a little bit more what they are going to be teaching you are about to take the professorship at the Harvard Business school you will be teaching a bunch of leaders and big institutions. What lesson did you have to read them abouforthem about the stord these identities and how do they translate. Guest i have a privilege of teaching at harvard and i will be teaching in executive leadership as you mentioned in the class to the Harvard Business school next spring. Ive often thought what is my highest goal and the answer is to the purpose that they have as leaders in the first place. Why do you want to be a theater. The process of discernment is one not of trying to figure out what you are supposed to do with what you are supposed to want. We are a people of the heart. What do i want when people turn religiously, to think what do you want me to want and i think the most important thing for the readers to want is to want to bring people to their highest levels of equal dignity and to see their limitless and found boundless potential. I want to induce the desire for people to fight for the radical equality and the limitlessness of Human Potential and the way they think is most appropriate using the tools they can write an ideology that they assume a end up giving it in a way that they can see people, these walking bundles of that dignity and potential. When i think about teaching leadership, when i talk about decent people getting past the contempt, i think about him and i learn a lot of this from you, too what the founders were only wanted for this country. This is a country founded not by gentry and rich friends but the ambitiousness for riffraff. It was like moving west one step ahead of the law. We could define it as we solvedt and we are going to pursue it and to sa see that you have the right to pursue your happiness that requires a kind of leadership that protects your dignity and respect your potential. That is what it should be about, not setting america against american. But to say that we are all in this together, two basic goals and bringing them together. That is what leaders do. Host you have been humble enough to be transparent about the fact you like ie and all of the viewers today have been guilty of the contempt even when we aspire to be Something Better and have also done something in this book which is talk about the need to seek forgiveness. Unpack that a little bit en and that the moral obligation and instrumental benefit and the ways youve gone to apologize. Host guest its funny there is a lot of literature about the incredible psychological power of forgiveness which is to say how important is to forgive other people. Theres a lot of whats written about how important it is and when youve done something and i hope people will read this with nobody that was a thing dot im ongod imone of the decent peope subtitle i hope we all see ourselves as the center is because they are. Weve all done this its hard not to swim in the river that is willing to send [inaudible] in one of the things i recommend is to ask forgiveness. If one in six americans have broken a relationship with a close friend or Family Member that means there are thousands watching this right now but have done this. How do you fix dot, by saying i love you and im sorry that we heard this relationship. That doesnt mean its going to be reciprocated. But it will heal your heart and i have the data to prove it. But i walked the earth and ive done it myself and its making amends. Its funny i talk about using a metaphor all throughout this book and anybody with Alcoholics Anonymous or the ninth circuit to make amends wherever possible. Everybody thats been in content, thats me, brother, make amends, due the ninth step, and it feels really good. Ive done it publicly, ive been around social media and ive done it with tens of thousands of people. I think that its going to affect me for the rest of my life and im grateful for it. Host name a few people who do this while and in the buck as im hoping yo andsign hoping e and all of a sudden you started talking about cornell west and bobby george that are transforming an institution. Both professors at Princeton University an and cornel west hs gone back and forth over the course of his career. Both of them are two of the most distinguished philosophers in life today so im absolutely on opposite sides of the spectrum. Bobby george is a catholic that is a good social conservative not just economic. He is open about his beliefs about of origin and marriage. Cornell west however is the honorary chairman of the socialists of america and is open about his strong progressive views. They couldnt be more different. They talk about their principles into deep disagreement. I know both of them they were both friends of mine and its incredibly inspirational. I have a partner i work with and we have a little bit of traveling, hes the former general counsel of the naacp. He is a man of the left and the progressive left. A civil rights warrior in the style of the 1960s and 1970s. I on the other hand and a big conservative for the enterprise institute. We met at a National Commission on how to lift people out of poverty. I sat next to him and it was like a house on fire because we are both poverty is the thing we care about the most. Its reaching the people that are the periphery of society into believing in finding a way to relieve their pain and improve their dignity so now we do a talk together, we do a speech where we talk about the alternative ways we appreciate each other so much. I see this and cant imagine this coming back to politics. I imagine here is a theater because you have expressed to me privately the appreciation you have for certain members of the Democratic Party including members of the u. S. Senate. You didnt have to do that. You told me about people you like and talk to the people that you are telling about a member of the u. S. Senate but you say we disagree and talked about it and say we disagree and to set the date so we can go back and delete this again but the respect each other and i respect the integrity and he respects mine. That is what is so attractive and magnetic about you and your future role for the country. Thats why im so bullish on it and i think there are more people on this at the state and local level and why a republic. Host we are three minutes from the end so a speed around and im skipping number one because youve already spoken about it here. But folks about to pick up the bucbook they will find a book tt is filled with behavioral social finances and its going to change their view of the problems of content and the way that they resist and how you can join the cause but they will also find a practical guide and rule number one because we are going to move on to rule number two we want to unpack it as dont attack or insult, dont try to win. You are weak. Why are you so weak backs guest one of the rules was to try to win because when you do, you dont win and when you win, you lose. When you tell somebody that you question the argument that is completely wrong. As we see in the parliament of social media, you destroy another person. All you need is an enemy of an enemy isnt a person persuaded. That is simply to do it. If it tries to find a common cause and then to debate the way to get the common cause. World number three or you are also going to pass over because it is to assume the motives of another person weve unpacked that a good bit. Number four, used your values as a gift and not a weapon. People often if they have strong views on social issues and Economic Issues and Foreign Policy they will use them and say since you dont believe these things you are a socialist based on your morality is a weapon if it is accepted and try to understand it and maybe it will be persuaded. Host to war. Stand up to the man refused to be used by the powerful. The person you need to stand up to if somebody on your own site. Think of somebody firing of america making people hate each other they will automatically have a visual of somebody they disagree with. They need a different vision. Whif you want your site to you always patronize because they are scratching the bias making you feel a little bit of guilt. Thithe person isnt informing yu are expanding your role or your worldview is that as of somebody taking you someplace youve never been before, that isnt a leader is somebody actually following your market signals using you to get more powerful and rich and famous and if you dont like that, youve got to be with this person. Host thank you. You have said in this book get outside your bubble. Think youre forgetting outside the bubble. Youve regularly loved your neighbor. People might disagree on all sorts of issues thank you for sharing this book with us. Guest thank you. Cspan has unfiltered coverage of the white house from the Supreme Court and Public Policy events. You can watch all of the programming on Television Online or listen on the free app. What is your assessment of the United States . Thank you for having me. Its a wonderfully broad question its hard to deny we have been through a spring dominated by a Public Health crisis that still very much with us also facing our social crisis that is as old as our country in some ways struggling for racial equality and human equality. But also very much of this moment forcing us