Transcripts For CSPAN2 Bettye Kearse The Other Madisons 20240712

To submit your questions and ill try to get to them as many of them as time allows. Medicares is retired physician geneticist. The other madisons is a first book and a follows a newly 30 your quest. Its been called roots for a new generation. Thank you for being with us. Very happy to be part of this program. Most of us grew up thinking of James Madison as the fourth president , one of the founders of our country, wrote the first draft of the u. S. Constitution and bill of rights. What did you think or what we you told about him growing up . I was told mostly what everyone else was. As you said, this important figure of American History. But i was also told that he was my great, great, great great grandfather through his relationship with one of his enslaved cooks. So he was one of my ancestors. And remind us of this. You are a madison. You come from african slaves and a president. What did that mean to you as a child . To me it set some clear expectations of it was intended to be force of inspiration. I was might have this great man in my family history. And that also i had slaves in my family who were to be as smart as well. So there was a lot to look up too, a lot was expected of me. And your mother carried stories of your lineage, told to her by her father and mother and his father before. Eight generations going back to the african woman who is kidnapped from her own country and brought to the united states. This is the creation of tells about that tradition and its role in your family. That tradition goes back thousands of years, probably before the birth of christ. They are men and women who maintained entire cultures and the history of the sculptures and its values. Forever. Im sure its still going on today but primarily of tradition of oral history. So this oral history was carried threat to family, and your mother told the story to some others. There was a slide presentation she gave to historical and genealogical organizations in the 1980s. You and your brother called it a black madisons lecture circuit. Right. She and effect handed this role to you when she gave you a box, as you call in the book. What was in the box . In the box with all kinds of things, grocery certificates come besser different death certificates, marriage licenses come lots and lots of photographs. A very fancy sort of way of embellishing primarily clothes of little girls. There were slaves sentences, newspaper articles. Just anything that could be gathered and put together. What i neglected to say was that was between family members. What it mean for you to receive this box . A big responsibility. My mother had not want me i will use that word, warned me, that someday this would be my responsibility to take care of this box and its contents, and to be the one responsible for making sure the stories didnt die, or passed on to generations. So i was just sort of overwhelmed and not sure really how i should handle it. So this is a little story that contributes to it, and my concern is that my mother is one that actually created the box. Before that time, my grandfather, my greatgrandfather kept the documents and whatever they could find inside a family bible here but my grandfather lost it during a move from one small texas town to another, and he was absolutely devastated. I didnt know if i should try to make sure that didnt happen again, put them away. Or should i tell these stories to as many people who are interested. I decided on the latter because there were so many important things in there, the stories around those things were so important. They werent just my families stories. They were stories of enslaved people and their descendents, and these people were represented other africanamericans. There was just a message of strength and persistence, and love that i thought its important to share. I want to hear all a bit more about you. You spoke about sense of ambivalence in this that you on this path of discovery. Many, many miles covered, many obstacles and a lot of emotional freight, lets say. Your mother had a reverence for the medicine family. They give pride in meaning and strength for what had been a really hard life. Id love to hear some of your feelings about that, what it meant for you because you had more ambivalence about being connected to this family. I did. Im a product of the 60s, so i came of age let me put it that way, during the civil rights movement, the black blar movement, and very important the womens movement. I felt licensed to take on some of the more uncomfortable sides and really not try to hide, you know, try to talk about them head on, which was very different from the way my mother looked at it. She was very proud of being a descendent of president madison. I think in some way reassured, someway comforted by having Something Special in her family background that set her apart from those who were experiencing the really difficult parts of being black in america. Right, and i came along and punched her in the face. She grew up during jim crow, very strict mother. Just to reiterate that people, if they have questions, you can ask them in the q a, i come into the q a section. Its on the bottom of your screen and will try to get to them. You are alluding to hitting these things headon and this all began with this woman kidnapped from with mandates, this woman kidnapped from africa as a teenager purchase by James Madison senior, sexual assaulter her. She bore this child and james junior, a man who became president raped her who bore his child. There is incest in there, too. And you talk about that conversation with her . Well, i remember this pretty well. Unfortunately i have, sitting on the floor of my bedroom with a bunch of papers around the when i happened to get the call because i was thinking, did she really recognize what this was . I called her up and i said, do you know that president madison and his father were rapists . She said, really . I said yes. Thats what they were. She was quite uncomfortable with that term. Her term that she preferred was visiting. What do you aint that meant to her to flame out like that . To call it visiting . Yes. Or two either. Im interested in that dynamic because i think this is such a part of what you confronted. It wasnt just not being able to find Historical Records but it was your own family, the history that theyd carried with them and in a way you are adding at a sacred cow. I was the first to take up the bat. Not just my mother but my grandfather who actually asked down the stories, always use the term visiting and never explained to her what it meant. When my mother would go to someone else, my sister, my aunt, they were very uncomfortable with talking about what had actually happened in a straightforward way. Just refuse to talk about it, angry if approached with those kinds of questions. So you were going to get at the unvarnished truth about the parts of the sacca that had gone soccer etiquette unchallenged. The history is of course James Madison did not have any children with his wife, the famous hostess dolley madison. She was a widow and had a son when they married. But you destroy your family told for generations, the life of james and her son jim who was sold off as a teenager at dollies urging. Can you give us a little recap of courses koepke and his wife were talking about but a sense of what you heard about his life . About jims life . Jims life i mentioned, didnt i . Well, jim was madison and corine, and about the time he was born, one of dollies nieces came to live with them at montpelier, and dolly aside careened to be his wetnurse. The story goes that she put jim on one rest and the baby whose name was the tory on the other breast and nurse them together. Over the years they became very good friends. When they were in their teens they fell in love with each other. Dollies son found out about it and she probably told jim and jim ended up in tennessee and he never saw his mother or father or victoria again. Just a heartbreaking story, one of many. You decided you will try to find a come youre going to try to find these unnamed unreported what happened to jim and in 1982 he made your first of many, many trips to montpelier to visit a madison Family Plantation that is now a historic site. Travel to portugal, africa, several states. Like so many people who were descended from slaves, whose lives are not considered important enough, that saved the document, a lot of trails with cold but there was some real breakthrough moments for you. Would you care to share any of those . In terms of finding jim . In terms whatever you discovered along the way. Theres so many little gems as your wandering through this, this may to try to find more about your family. It was certainly difficult because often names were not reported. Often families were separated, sold apart, which is what happened to jim. I tried very difficult to find out who purchased him, where exactly he had gone, and betrayal picks up with his son, emmanuel. So that is documentation of him. Doesnt have his name but we know who he was because of who owned him. So he was owned by a famous man in tennessee and famous later in texas when they moved there. So we hope to trace back from emmanuel to jim, but we didnt quite do it. I say we. Im talking about me and my cousins. One of my cousins passed, but the three of us were doing research together, one of them unfortunately passed, but my cousin sean harley came across an 1830 slave census, american senses. Because the man he found was not asleep. His name was shadrach madison, and for a number of reasons we believe that shadrach actually could have been jim. So now thats what im trying to do is somehow verify that shadrach was our jim. He was born in virginia around the same time. They lived in the same place. They were originally owned by the same family. They have this unusual name, first name, shadrach. And then when they were freed, they chose the name madison. Which speaks to the remember, always remember, you are a madison. Yes, yes. Katrina williams says thank you for writing this important book. What are your thoughts regarding those are trying to rewrite a narrative about slavery, the attempts to portray slavery as indentured servitude or excludes from the School History book entirely . They are deniers. They are just a bit i guess in some ways not unlike my aunt laura who did want to talk about the painful parts. This this is a painful part of American History. It happened. Its a very important part because this country wouldnt have been what it is without the millions of slaves who did the work to make it what it is. That comes across so clearly in your book, that the role of the tendency of slavery, dependency, acheson slavery but an institution, and emotional support, and use wrist support in other ways. You come he went to portugal, you research the origins of the slave trade and the twisted moral code that was adopted to rationalize the business which was very profitable to lakers, niger, then to ghana. Why take on the physical and emotional experiences . What did they add to your sense of the family story . For me they helped me understand who i am. I grew up in a very solid middleclass, very protective environment. I didnt have any idea of what might insulate ancestors have gone through. I just felt like i was missing part of myself. I went and looked for them. I looked for mandy and all the places that you named. I look for corine and montpelier, and i literally walked the same steps, just a profound experience. And in so doing i got an inkling, just an inkling of what my ancestors had gone through and how they help their experience, how they help shake me. I learned a lot about their incredible strength, their inner strength, the balance, their sense of hope and, of course, the talent and values that they have that they passed down to all of their descendents. This is true for every slave family, not just mine. If you have questions for dr. Kearse you can write them in the q a segment of your screen count on the bottom of the screen. Id be happy to get as many as possible. You just do yourself and all the way to be the family griot, and trying to understand the deprave and inhumanity that landed made in u. S. In these tips that you went on. But also to confirm the family lineage and the stories that you heard that just to Historic Records also through dna and enlisted the help of dr. Bruce jackson. Do you approach the National Society of madison family descendents about authenticating your comest in a . Where did that lead you . So it looked like it was going to be very promising. Dr. Jackson emphasized again and again, be careful with the genealogy. Because if you convey dna to the wrong person, they can say see, i told you. You are not related. So the National Society of madison family descendents did identify one man who had appropriate genealogy, and who initially was willing to participate and compare this dna study. But what happens was that shortly after that there was a big article about my research in the washington post, and he just didnt want to get involved in the brouhaha, so he backed off. So since then i havent really pursued that. And i have been feeling more and more that the dna and, you know, the proof that other nonafricanamericans families have to do, i feel that she was not what people want. That was fascinating. I know know youve been asked many times, like would it matter to you if you did get proof that you were descended from James Madison, or that you were not and that you came to really interesting place with that. Id love to hear a little bit more about that. If i did get proof it would be great for my book. Right, exactly. But its about much more than marketing. As i was saying its really about understanding who you are and what your values are and really honoring and respecting the slaves and knowing that you inherited a lot of their strength and that you have an opportunity to contribute just as much as they did to this country. Its about, its not about knowing who you are. Lets see here, another question. Do you have any sense of the role of, what they are displayed in the light of your slave ancestors . They mustve been pretty strong insight and other how is it all has the faith informed your own view of life . Well, my enslaved ancestors were strong christians, and most slaves were. It helped form a sense of community. It was an important component to our values, and those beliefs were passed down to all of us, including myself. Its an important part of my daily life and my daily sense of who i am. Another question. Dr. Kearse, thank you for sharing your families story. Have you been in contact with other insulate families of our Founding Fathers . Famously the Sally Hemmings family slave descendents. Tell me more about that. Yes, yes. On two occasions, when was at the university of virginia. I want to say may be three years ago, i cant remember exactly, but there was a symposium on slavery in the university, and i was on the Panel Discussion with descendents of james monroe and Thomas Jefferson, and descendents of slaves who had worked at university. Some of whom were owned by the university. And then later just last year i was at montpelier, and those on another panel with similar folks. At that when it was descendents of monroe, jefferson, and washington. So, yes, i have been in, stayed in contact. You have built so many relationships in this journey, several with people who work at montpelier but many, many others. Talk about, this is the most elite of elite americans. Hes called the father of the constitution, student of the enlightenment and preserving the sacred fire of liberty, which is at the very foundation of Americas National and yet this is also that he came up with a political compromise to count enslaved africans as threefifths human. You do so much to flesh out the people that are in your slave descendent line. How do you make sense of these contradiction in James Madison . My other question could be doesnt even matter who he was . Doesnt matter who he was . Thats really a good question and a tough one. I think it does matter. Its hard to balance out his faults with his strengths. It would be great if he had freed slaves and that lived up to his ideals, but he didnt. He didnt free a single slave. [inaudible] right, right. Sorry, i cut you off. George washington freed the slaves who were, in fact, his own. He did free some slaves, and Thomas Jefferson freed slaves who were probably his direct descendents, but James Madison didnt free a single slave. As close as he came to that was to slave billy i went with him to philadelphia and whose contract madison sold to a northerner, knowing that eventually, arsenic anyway that eventually he would be freed, and he was freed but madison himself didnt free him. So he, like jefferson and all, they lived this kind of strange dichotomy of having all these lofty ideals, wonderful ideals, but not truly being able to live up to them. They probably said, well, thats the way we do things here. And didnt really want to do that. They knew it was wrong but as far as acting on it, very hard for them to do. Lets see here. What positive or negative reactions have you received from your book . Well, so far ive only had positive reactions. Im guessing theres probably going to be some controversy. There are still people who are disputing the care and the dna test for Sally Hemmings family. Right, right. I mentioned building relationships at montpelier and you mention speaking workshops and symposiums there. Reexamining historical narratives and how they are formed and two is included. There is a real History Movement that wants to contextualize how we remember, whether it is integrating that story of Sally Hemmings or here in georgia the Atlanta History Center has been active in contextualizing lost cause civil war monuments. How would you like your family stories to be reflected at montpelier . The first time i went to montpelier was 1992, and this was six years before the dna proof that the hemmings family had had. They were ahead of the game already, because they were, the day that i arrived the first time, i was able to see an excavation site which was the kitchen, the south kitchen. They were looking for the truth. They were trying to learn who the slaves were, what they did, how they played a role in James Madison said life at montpelier, and whether contributions were to the country they were already living in. They have continued to do that. My relationship with them is, they are my friends. They have always been supportive and really interested in my story because they want the whole story. One of my aunts name, karen, s up on the wall were other slaves were listed. And i was involved in the permanent exhibit that is called a distinction of color, which is a quote from James Madison. That exhibit is something i feel all americans should see. Because it puts the role of slaves in perspective. It talks about their role at montpelier, how they were dealt with in the constitution. The fact that they were people and not just commodities. I like to say that there were millions of slaves, but there were millions of individuals. The visit to montpelier encourages you to see that. What does that mean to have that fuller more inclusive picture of American History . Its the whole story. Its the real story. Its the voices that were not heard. African slaves were not really able to speak for themselves, but they left their mark everywhere, from new york city. They built a wall all over the country, in boston and ever ive lived. The mark of the slave is there. Question from june. The story of them is amazing and i love the book. Your message of what its like to be black in america is what would you like people and women in particular to take away from your story . Women in particular . What would you like people and women in particular to take away from your story . In this book, as writing this book i couldnt imagine that black women reading this book, and you know, saying that slavery was wrong, that did the same trips, too. I hope that it would pass down the same quality, would tell their own children about the quality. But theres a a chapter in a bk that is called visiting, and thats the chapter that is about rape. One significant message i wanted to convey was that rate was, it was, it could happen in any setting, and one setting was within marriage. So i did want to portray that to all women, that marriage doesnt know soon offer a a haven frome possibility of being sexually abused. Theres a lot there for readers to dig into about the sexualization of africanamerican women, which i think is really thats a tough chapter, because little girls growing up, there was unlikelihood that they could be raped and there was nothing that their mothers could do about it. Heres a question from charlotte. When i think of i sometimes wonder if the interconnectedness of families can be part of the healing. I do want to suggest the abuse and taking of all of women as sex partner should be saturday but i wanted to know if the denial of, you meant that is shockingly present a month as can be subverted by distant its coming together as your family . Your thoughts. That was a long question. It was a long question. A really good question. Im sorry, it disappeared so i cant reread it. The interconnectedness is part of the healing, instead of the dividing of the way that we think of history, a binary way i hope im not putting words in her mouth. Within families . It came back up. Its a miracle, the miracle of the moderator came back up. Okay. Think of the divide i sometimes wonder if the interconnectedness of families can be part of the healing i dont suggest the abuse and taking of Vulnerable Women as sex partner should we celebrate the wonder if the denial of common humanity that is even now shockingly present among us can be subverted by descendents, together . Terrific question. Well, yes. It will take work and outreach. Ive had the pleasure of meeting connie graaf, she was a great person, a descendent of one of madisons sisters. She has shared with me that my cousin, she used the history the same way, you know, she believed that we should all come together and look at the whole truth of our family backgrounds. And recognize that the healing that coming together will definitely bring. Another question, do you feel, how do you feel about president madison now . Any different than before your research . Im allowing myself to be angry with him. Its only different in that i have clarity on that, because he knew it was wrong and yet he used one of his slave women. The other thing, when he didnt do was he didnt prevent dolley from selling jim, so i lost that connection to an ancestor that i want to know. So yeah, i am allowing myself to be disappointed in him as well. We have to close and are so many stories that people can look forward to. One of a slave voicing his master, of the grid and fortitude it took for newly emancipated slaves to establish themselves, your greatgrandfather max and armed rights in cedar creek in 1889 over the right to vote and, of course, so much more about the journey that you go on to find all of those things. I wonder, dr. Kearse, before we close, there are so many names left out of the official records of your family, things you just want to put out up there and se with us tonight, all the people listening . Well, the first thing i want to put out is mandy. Mandy was the first family griot and my family first african famine and such in america. We talked about corine. We talked about jim. We mentioned the manual with one of jims sons. Emmanuel married elizabeth and they had a ton of children, and they were fortunate, most of them were able to stay together. Some either died or standoff, but in that family, in that generation my greatgrandfather mac and his brother shall be an child, and young and james and john, and i could go on and name all eight of them. And then there was, you know, my beloved grandfather and then the rest of us. Thank you so much. Wonderful family. So appreciate you sharing part of that story with us today. We just got a lovely note from connie graaf you just mentioned. She says this is a real treat and a proud to be your cousin. I love to see betty and other madison descendents and i come she conscious of, and other madison descendents come to get out montpelier and talk about history. She said i will never be mad at you. Oh, good. Thank you. So all is resolved in a in t of the work anyway. I want to thank you so much, dr. Kearse, or joining us tonight. A real pleasure. Thank you for having me. Great. We thank you so much for tuning into paper will be airing an edited version of this talk with dr. Kearse on Second Thought on friday may the virtual authors talks is, Marybeth King about her new novel ask again, yes, that will be tuesday may 12 and stephanie to talk but her new memoir, its called straight. You can see a full video watch video of our other virtual author events at Atlanta History Center. Com. Thank you again so much dr. Kearse. Really a pleasure. Heres a look at some Publishing Industry news. Former president bill clinton and best selling author James Patterson arcing up to write a novel titled the president s daughter which a skilled to be released next summer. This post a 2010 release, the te president is missing vessel 3. 2 million copies. The new republic live return one of 255 years old last week and a modification the libra has released a list of one or 25 adult and childrens books that they say inspire a lifelong love of reading. The list of books are available at the website in yp l. Org. Publishers weekly name Porter Square books in cambridge, massachusetts, this bookstore of the year. The 16yearold store is coowned by who bought in 2013 and recent decide to sell half of it to several of their employees. Also in the news npd book scan report book sales up close to 8 the week ending may 16 pick adult nonfiction sales were flat and remain down 8 for the year. Many book festival and conferences that were forced to cancel continue offer attendees a virtual experience. The bronx book festival take place online on june 6 and the American Library Associations Annual Conference Goes virtual on june 2426. Booktv will continue bring to new programs and publishing news and you can also watch all of our archived programs anytime at booktv. Org. On a weekly Author Interview program afterwards new times reporter jennifer signup chronicled the first year of the largest class of women ever elected to congress. Heres a portion of that discussion. There has to be agenda focus. Im recruiting women off because of it on the women often come you didnt come many women have to be asked to run. Had to be talked into money. If thats the case with women you left recruit women directly. I talked to a woman who had run and a primer in North Carolina and she was stunned to see how many women especially in their 50s didnt believe another women should have that job. Its really, its going to take concerted effort. I think its just a quintus and we want more when the, come on and run. There has to be structural changes in place. To watch the rest of this in again find other episodes come visit our website booktv. Org, click on the afterwards tab near the top of the page. Welcome to the Virtual Event with historian Heather Cox Richardson about her n