Transcripts For CSPAN2 Alina Das No Justice In The Shadows 20240713

New format where were continuing to bring you the authors you love to our community. At any time during the event tonight you can click on the big green button below and purchase the book on our website. Were offering reduced shipping as an incentive, especially as our physical stores are closed and we need your Online Purchases in order to keep bringing you programming. [inaudible] tonight as the really special treat we have a conversation between with alina das, author of no justice in the shadows. You can ask the author a question by clicking on the question mark at the bottom of the screen, and you can see he other questions other viewers have asked and vote for one you want to be heard the most or submit your own. Start asking us questions as soon as you have them. A reminder, the come as you are in your pajamas and work clothes, whatever, were happy your here. In the new book, now justice in the shadows, alina das, Immigration Rights activist, lawyer, and professor at nyu school of law shows that trump antiimmigration stand is the lathe iteration of the idea of the criminal alien. Align welcome, alina and dara. I want to i mean, understanding this is kind of a weird situation, obviously for you not being down here in d. C. , also that we are living through a time when it seems luke there was only one story that matters and working on a book that is but weve been talking over the last few days and i know in fact what you and your colleagues have been working on right now [inaudible] extension of the work you have been doing into the coronavirus era and since so much of your book, and one of the real d things i appreciate is how much grounded can you maybe talk through the cases youre working on right now and how this the immigration system look during a pandemic from the perspective of the people youre trying to reach . Guest sure. And thank you so much for being here and thanks to politics and prose, and to all of you who i wish i could see but cant right now. Really appreciate you taking a moment, especially during this hero risk horrific time to be here and hear is chat but the things this book covers. Sadly enough to say when i started writing the book i never imagined it would come out during a pandemic. I never imagined that our immigration system would quite look and feel the way it is looking and feeling right now, which is to say a lot because i had a very low level of expectations to what we could see, i particularly from the Current Administration when it comes to immigration policy. Could never imagine things to be quite like this and i have to say sadly, the theme is i cover in the book are real where more relevant than ever given what were hearing from the white house, from federal immigration agencies like i. C. E. , which is immigrant and customs enforcement, the folks going to peoples homes and arresting people and really in charge of what is called interior enforcement as well as customs and border protection. People i care very deeply about our being affected under cobra 19 in this pandemic. It is the way in which a better government policy is to essentially devalue human life in the name of Public Safety. And it angers me because my clients and the people have a privilege of working with and for, and for many years, they are members of the public, they live in our communities, they were living their lives just fine before eyes came knocking on the door in the Early Morning hours to take them away, they were the ones dropping their kids off at school when ice would come in and there is a Public Safety rhetoric in the defense of these actions and its prompted me too write the book in the first place. To see the way in which you can keep over for 30000 people locked up in jails knowing that they are at such heightened risk for contracting a deadly disease. In claimants because of Public Safety when this is an immigration system, people are being held, we made a choice for very bad reason to criminalize and we never needed to do that in the first place. I think the behavior of the government right now is shameful on so many Different Levels and immigrants have taken the pay and even including many of my clients. Human talk about yes we can, it is a 26yearold husband and father, i had the privilege of meeting him through his Immigration Lawyer who has been representing him for a number of years, she brought in the immigrant, i teach there and she brought them in to my clinic and she represents to try to get him attention. I have to say, his case exemplifies so much of what is wrong with the system, there is a great profile that really talks about how he ended up facing deportation as part of the pipeline which he shared to the United States when he was just six years old, he ended up growing up in the bronx with his family, he was in the poorest Congressional District in the country and he quickly found himself from an honor student into somebody who is kicked out of school in his neighborhood as a black man, he is an immigrant from began via. And so it did not take long before he ended up getting juvenile offenses and that was his entry point into the system of the pipeline. But he served his time and he changed his life and he was ready to move on. But because of the way our Immigration Law works, instead of being able to get the Second Chance that he earned, he was into a new pipeline the deportation pipeline. Thats where he remains today, i decided to write this book in 2017 and actually that same month is when ice hit. Today is the 995 of his detention. Our government has been locking up the commands of that and what is more outrageous about his case, five days after he was initially locked up by ice, he found out his partner, a u. S. Citizen who lives in the bronx was pregnant with their first child. Even though ive had discussions to release him, they refused and that little girl has grown up, she just had her second bullfight earlier this month, she gripping her entire life with having her dad by her side. That is what immigration policies are. To make matters worse, we did have a moment where we thought the tide would turn earlier this year thanks to incredible advocacy by his family, the community in newark, the bronx defenders and Governor Cuomo granted one of the very rare pardons. February this year at conviction, the adult conviction which was for an unarmed robbery, he maintained his innocent to get out of bikers, young man, that happened a very long time ago and he listened any pardon him. We thought we could go to ice and he said weve been keeping him locked up because of this, we dont have to, were going to let them go. And he did not care. They gave us a one page decision saying they were going to continue to lock him up because of his conviction without mentioning that he had been pardon. That is the democracy we stuck in. And before people say if youre an immigrant, thats what you get, the important thing to remember again is that he somebody who did what was expected of him, he changed his life and its not just him, its entire family, his life and his child who are suffering because of the governments. And the fact that even today with the pandemic, despite our request for his release, he is sitting in the jail was hi the epicenter for the covid19 cases, the first place in this country that had a positive covid19 case among people by ice, he remains there and thus far neither ice will release him, thankfully we will keep fighting and a shout out to my students, amy joseph and cynthia with sophia and myself over the last several months, we will keep fighting until someone listens, it should not have to be this hard and his life is worth far more than what our government is doing to him, its a real tragedy. This thing about for that matter, many of the places that you talk through, once you start hearing and recognizing the same kind of things in the history, places keep coming up like listening to young people, some of the stuff that you have in the book between state and local law getting moved an accident where the same system ends up incurring the consequences for someone, then realizes that it did not necessarily mean to do all of that and tries to fight back. To what extent do you see this as a history of intentional harm versus the history of tragic . I think its a little bit of both, it depends on what actors were looking at. My point of my book is to say weve been looking at immigration policy and the debate in the wrong way. The title of the book is no justice in the shadow and part of the reason they decided to call it that was because we are constantly being told even by folks who are in aggressive movement, people who dont like the consequences and realize its too harsh, we are causally being told that what we need to do is to make sure that that certain immigrant to come out of the shadows and who deserves to come out of the shadow. In reality, the question we should be asking is a question that history teaches us to ask, why though shadows exist in the first place. And its absolutely intentional, if you go back into the history of our immigration system when you started creating federal law around immigration, that whole project is whats tied up with antiblackness, colonialism, really the way that we treat people of color and immigrants, placed into the hierarchy and so you see the First Federal laws of these choices that were making that are intentional come up during the time where the borders of the United States are changing, chinese immigrants were coming in and initially welcome for their labor and during an economic downturn and becomes demonized. Very quickly we have a racialized criminalization, a lot of people are familiar with the chinese exclusionary act to be in one of the first Immigration Laws and going back to the intentional choice, even earlier than that was something i talked about in the book a law in 1875 called the page act which specifically when youre testing the waters instead of going against chinese immigrants, they talked about convicts and the use language that antiimmigrant folks in california had really adopted as ways of trying to drive Chinese People out on the stereotype. This is a constant theme in the book from the history we see it starts when immigrants are being associated with criminality, its a rhetoric. Then you see laws that criminalize behavior, this is true of drug laws, or border, there was a time when some of them are not considered criminal acts and when they got associated with people of color and immigrants, thats when we see laws that treat is these as crime. Much of a group of people who are criminal and aliens, sometimes we have this category that starts to justify huge Deportation Machinery. That cycles right back into the rhetoric. We see that cycle throughout unfiltered day which is very intentional, at the same time we see groups like you mentioned who can step back and look at pieces of the machinery and recognize that theres a wrong, thanks to incredible activist and others, we have a much better understanding for example of the real racist foundation of our legal system. There is a much better conversation, it certainly by no means perfect in a much better conversation that were having today about the unintended and intended consequences of the legal system and how its supposed to deal with as a policy which is really wonderful and gratifying to hear but yet when we push it forward, we say we can recognize that every police encounter, arrest charge conviction, sentence in a criminal legal system is racially charged with their discriminatory element that runs throughout the entirety and how we have that conversation about deportation and people assume, youve been arrested or if you have a conviction or if youre an immigrant, of course somebody has to be supportive, why not you. When the reality is, we should not be questioning who deserves deportation and we should really be asking why are we deporting people, deportation itself is such a harsh consequence and we go back to history with the choice that we made during a time when we were a lot more open and as a country we were being labeled. I think this is one of the episodes in the book that i had no idea about, its the first time of whether it was to support the immigrants would been in the u. S. And the extent to which after the policies of deportation arose to support and consider a question, you could ask the same thing to say that someone cannot come here and to say if you have been living in the u. S. , they can kick you out. [inaudible] making reality more likely and more adjusted i wanted to talk a little bit more about the dynamic of criminalization in the way and the ideas and rhetorics into law but that is one of the main engines driving the narrative in the book. It can be a little bit i think you can have your basic onetoone level understanding with Immigration Law, there used to be an explicit natural system where if you were an immigrant from southern or eastern europe, much less you were going to be able to get in, the 1965 act in order to the nationality act is a hard sell or act, it ended up opening up immigration to a lot of people and did abolish the races system. When we talk about the 365 act, yes that can be a little bit more complicated its a different dynamic coming from a different place in the law and we will determine who can come in based on the countries that we can think. It is clear, this again gets the intentional and intentional dynamic, it is clear that changes that were brought in 1965, that was riding a set of laws, they are eliminating the National Origin quotas, with a huge step forward in terms of recognizing, with our Immigration Law should not be based on where people came from. Other scholars talk about doing an amazing job of how the National Origins and quotas were about waste specifically and defining it in what it means to be an american. The proximity to an immigrant, its not a recognition, its changed over time thats been a defining feature of whether or not you can get those papers and whether you can come here and belong and its something that we feel currently today, getting rid of those quotas was a huge deal. But it is no surprise, thats what i try and articulate in the book that here we are, all these years later and we now have more deportation, n more imprisonmen, more exclusions that we ever had previously in the system, the very specific forces like openly White Supremacists including john hampton who has a number of organizations over the years who have tried to promote this idea and now we have the system, we have to make it fair, more immigration to protect america americans, doing it in ways that are very quoted racially but not as explicit, theres a whole system that is designed to me americans believe that none of our immigration system is based on questions and what its for the country and what is not. As opposed to being a system that is designed to keep out immigrants of color in different ways, now that we do not have national or origins. There is a chapter in my book where i talk about a man who is my first client as a law student, back when i first started, i talk about the fact that its no accident that he and his family came to the United States in the early 1970s in hong kong, he tried to come earlier and he wouldve been facing these barriers and quotas, it is no accident he came then but its no accident that in 1990s he was found locked up in immigration jailed facing deportation even though he was a green card holder and his entire life, he became a grandfather because he was facing deportation in the late 1990s. He use the system in a mass incarceration in the 70s and 80s and 90s as a response including immigration reform, we created a system that has penalized immigrants in different ways and has different narratives to talk about same people that most of us, now the president still does, he is in openly racist rhetoric and most americans dont use that rhetoric now and we justify the Current System because we are able to use this language to talk about immigration policy when in fact we should be targeting the same people now that there are quotas with the wall and were now building different walls, the walls of the supporter in civil walls as well. Maybe if you can talk a little bit more and to commit a little bit of policy upon everybody listening, and to talk through the concept, people who are not immigration nerds are usually supplied and it sounds like 1920s track in Immigration Law. Sure, it is interesting because Immigration Law today now has long sections devoted to what types of criminal offenses from coming to the u. S. , from staying here can lead to someone being deported in one of the things that i try to emphasize people when im talking about the issue is that no one is immune, you can be a green card holder, you can have permanent residency and then if you have a conviction, there is no statute of limitations, it can be a conviction that you had when you were a teenager and if its considered a conviction, there you are, 20 years later, youre traveling back from visiting your grandma and suddenly are taken into an immigration jail, it happens every day and its a constant and expected part of deportation system. One of those categories, if youre wondering what it is, i am too, after all these years of litigating cases, it is impossible for me too do anything but quote the variety of definitions that different agencies have given the term because it has no meaning. I found it very interesting about the term that it came up and it was added to Immigration Law in the late 1800s, shortly after it started writing federal immigration for the first time and they didnt want to define it then either. You can be excluded from the United States. What is interesting, other scholars, this term also found its way into different laws during the same time in one of the places where was first emerging was in a law that came out of the backlash to emancipation that used as a reason to block people from being able to have the right to vote. In the right to participate. Again another example of how antiblackness and this idea controlling black people also emphasized the way the federal government started responding to immigrants as well. In the idea that we create a category that is vague that allows us to include things like petty theft or kinds of crimes that black people in particular are targeted for under the law. We create a category and the people in power can decide when the categories apply and they can enforce different laws based on that. Just like in voter suppression, we found the term popping up in our Immigration Law and at that point in time, somebody who is familiar with the history, a person of privilege, never had to explain things, they will read a term like that and say it makes sense, i dont want somebody being here if they committed a crime. Once again we have a division of immigrants but in reality its a way of dividing and conquering and really showing that we can use his discretion to target people of color and people who are least able to defend themselves. When we were talking earlier, you mentioned that you dont think of this book as a book about the administration and the person that comes after him. And can you elaborate a little more about that but im not sure its a fair description because i think when it is very easy to imagine the Nonfiction Book and now the Immigration Law in the last author of my book. And i lay out a plan, what is it look like, extend and when you twtwopoint between good and bad immigrants and of understanding, you urged people who consider themselves part of that movement to adopt but on the other hand there is a lot of tossed off descriptive even granular stuff in there because there is so many points of intersection between the criminal justice in the immigration system that ultimately things that a motivated person could adopt with a local agenda and make sure their community is doing. It seems to a certain extent like your writing for maybe those who have been sensitized to the issue of immigration in a way they might not of been when these systems are set up to begin with. Absolutely. And to be honest, i am very privileged to work and live in a bit of a bubble. And i told this to some people that were my teachers. Many organizing groups in new york city like families for freedom, the coalition, advocacy groups and others, they have been saying this for a really long time. We had a moment in the immigrant rights movement, really big moment in 2006 when there was a bill with criminalizing documents and status, we saw thousands and thousands of people take to the streets in protest. It was a beautiful moment, really rich moment for immigrant rights organizing. And its a moment when a lot of people were in the Street Holding signs that said we are not criminals. My good friend at families from freedom and all these other organizations, people who had been facing deportation and lost loved ones because somebody had a conviction along time ago, there like that is not the divide that we want to be making. Nor is it the divide that we want to make in the fact that one is the american in contact with the criminal legal system and this is not the way we want to divide up our people because its going to have an impact on people of color. In poor people on people and our loved ones. So that was a real watershed moment, for a decade, organizing groups have been really pushing back insane you are part of the immigrant rights movement, do not adopt the narrative, it will only come back to hurt us. There was tons of progress, i will say that a lot of organizations recognized that were coming up with more inclusive policies and then trump got elected. And it was a horrific thing and people were incredibly scared and the reaction that people have, living in their homes, will i be able to wake up with my kids today. In the immigrant Rights Community did in notion of inclusiveness, were all needing to fight back. All of that was great. I never once turned any of that that i needed to write a book about the good versus bad. What changed for me was not trump. Because as you mentioned, anything he brought more people into this world and more people who not thought about immigration policy who did not realize that obama has supported 3 million people, a lot of people who are not aware suddenly saw it because he was so obvious about what he was doing and why but they realized it was a problem. It was not because of him, i decided to write the book because i was literally sitting outside of city hall in new york listening to a conversation by members of mayor de blasio from new york city and members of his administration proposing to cut funding for Legal Defense for immigrants to immigrants have criminal convictions. So during the rising deportation of the Obama Administration, new york city did a wonderful thing and they decided to fund the countrys first public system in new york immigrant community project, it was an incredible achievement that was due to the organizing by an Incredible Group of the city to create the funding and ensure any new yorker is aware in the basic right that the federal law is not recognized, the city stepped in and said we will do and make it universal. And what does new York City Administration do, they make a decision that some people who are Public Safety threats dont deserve to have a lawyer. So i literally sat outside of the City Council Meeting talking to a friend of mine who is also an immigrant rights lawyer for an hour and we sat there and said its 2017, why are we having this conversation in new york city, why are we having this conversation about why Public Defense is important to everyone, why certain basic rights of every individual is theirs. Why its not only harm the individual it harms the whole community if we allow people to go into deportation proceeding. Thre. No concept of city, county. Because something during a like a universal Legal Defense, cutie laws immigrant blood organizations to provide aid is working with people its a collaboration between the local government. These are policies that have been developed. We need to not be willing to stay we need to push them forward. In my solutions tester i try and outline some of these changes so different people can look up because to be honest, my audience its certainly not the people who believe what trump is doing is right. They are not the people and trying to reach. Its a people who want to do right by immigrants but still despite their best intentions, good versus bad mentality and are trying to build our immigration system around it. And think theyre going to achieve justice. What the shows are going to do if we believe theres a group of people out there who deportation is justified. Host i want to take the opportunity to encourage people to use the ask a question button down into the right. Ill be looking at those in a second i am now going to turn on the lights in my apartment because i cant see this very well but actually will he do that talk a little bit about what is a win that you and your team have that you want to brag about . A win thats really hard. I have to say the most recent again was in collaboration with other organizations make the road new york the underserviced are able to get one of our clients out of immigration jail because he was medically vulnerable to covid19 and to get him back with his family. Felt like a big win because he was also an individual who was targeted of a violent ice raid into his home many times, 20 times and nate. The medical vulnerability that was putting his life at risk with covid19. I think it was a victory, because when i strives to come and take someone away, sing it happen so quickly, it was really hard to find a way to fight. Is also a victory because this for me, dont mean to be too negative on the city but they have incredible counsel and many people, organizations and communities really stood up and fought back. Even before the pandemic, ice has been a Public Safety risk, enforcement knocking on someones door in the middle of the night and telling them youre the police and asking them to come out and handcuffing them and snatching them away to a jail that is a violence offense in one downside of ice its violence as people forget that. I think that theres one other thing i want my book to do is to remind people what deportation is. We have treated it, normalized it and weve done a good job of normalizing it many ways, but it didnt start with him its been there for a long time. Its been forgotten. Being deported is like getting an eviction notice, losing your job, getting divorced having your kids taken away from you, being sent to place you might be persecuted or tortured all wrapped up in one administrative order that is given to you without the right to counsel and maybe not even by a judge. I could be in the name of the civil system over a bureaucracy basically. We do that and we dont even question it. And so i think if people can focus on the harm deportation does that makes everyone whether its a person getting deported or the families. Maybe we will be able to have a better conversation and move conversation about victory the way saving one because of something that never should have happened to him to change in the system as a whole. Host so, are asking questions but cannot she read them appropriately. First of all hell was non violent paradigms laying out in the litigation with tension because of covid19 . Guest this is a big big problem. Im sure many of you are familiar with this, obviously even as how we talk about the basic nature of problems with the system, there still is a divide when you talk about folks in prison, jail, those who deserve the quote unquote Second Chance based on whether or not they have committed a violent or nonviolent offense. That problem is always amplified, and that on the criminal Justice System that amplifies. One of the reasons it bothers many of us who work with folks facing this with the idea of violence is it ignores the fact you should be the first person standing up asking in jails that dont see violence they concentrate and make it worse. They harm families of those are left behind so whenever youre able to at move past the harms it suddenly perpetuate them. Thats a talk about violence and nonviolence is having a sale two. Over 30,000 people are locked up any given night in jail the number has been higher under the sadness ration 50000 the only reason its lower is because the conversations of coming in the country are locking them up to. We have 30,000 people any given night a lot of them are in jail, i want to release them because their safety risk. In their statements to the media, the case of somebody who has a violence conviction on their record and those with the most gracious circumstances. I know you have a great piece last year recheck with the favorite line is immigrants coming to kill you. They have a system down very pat theyll pick out pieces, i like their point. And i think because of that, obviously ice in courts they bought into this as well. Instead of actually asking does it make sense to lock up a person in a jail where they are at significantly heightened risk of dying because that makes them is that the right thing for us to do under constitutional protection . Is that the right thing to do . Or should we be debating ono, hey alina could shoot try to refresh your browser your screen has frozen. This is what we hope she can hear me. [laughter] we do have some Great Questions in the question queue. I am going to email her and make sure everything is okay. I will be right back. Stomach sorry about this thank you for bearing with us. Dana if you want to plug your side of things your podcasts outlet looks like she has their ego. Looks like she is refreshing. That was an intermission my cat is sleeping on the other side of the couch so she is not decided to show up yet. To anybody asking this will be recorded, the recording of this event will be available at this link just a few moments after the broadcast tonight. Guest including this part . Even this part. [laughter] its pretty funny. I just shot her a test. And are in the chat is asking a great question. Dare what you think about the book . Im embarrassed when i read immigration books that really say something. [laughter] in addition to obviously so many of alina stories what she has seen to the eyes of her clients trying to get the determination to complete people and to profile them rather than just talking about the reasons they are in the book, being their involvement with the criminal and immigration systems, some of the history in their, was i think particularly was not something i have had the opportunity to think about. If you look at legislative history, you tend to see issues once they have already been in the public consciousness. And so to think about what happens before something comes enough of a National Priority someone is talking about it or the states are talking about it, you have social process that has an interplay with that quality. Its always refreshing to read things and have a feed in both worlds dont think politics are just was being said and mass media but its also not just in the world. Certainly absolutely. Alina we are just talking about you. [laughter] guest love technical difficulty. Host lets you getting it . Sorry about that. I guess this is the way we live these days in this new world. Host so maybe getting to another question. Vanessa wanted to hear you address the criminalization rather than the legislative means. Guest sure. This is part of the Trump Administration if you go back to 1996 which is where the modern day division you start to see this with the speaker. I think its happening right now the last minute maybe before that people being locked up and jailed is significant as well as overseeing in a long time which is really the criminalization of the system. That is one thing again but the bulk of the students have and thanks in part, president is willing to talk about this people have an understanding. Its with the 1920s on people are coming to the u. S. Theres a group and they were just so calm. That was the thing that was going so they came to the u. S. That did not sit well lead to pressure. Theres a compromise to legalize immigration there were into the community. [inaudible] so that has been for a long time and kelly with the great work she has done. And we see that become more recently in our society with the Obama Administration and some program operation. Meanwhile the Trump Administration has close the border were people are in groups of 70, and you know what i wanted to observe one of these horrific hearings ended up being people shuffling. [inaudible] and they were almost talking together telling them they were going to have charges for people who traveled and said the criminal rights for protection were treated this way. So the it was those who were designed to protect thats one of the many ways we were able to mitigate. Host apologies to everyone whos noted the sound qualities we are trying to address that on their end will see what we can do. [laughter] satellite net asset is there is a particular weight sorry. Youre totally fine. Alina if you potentially have headphones or like a headset at hand that might solve the sound problem. If not weve only got time for a couple more questions anyway. Guest im so sorry. Let me see if i can, dont worry see if this works so finishing the question, annette asks if theres a particular organization or website . Guest site first let me check is this better . Host yes so much. Stomach sorry about that. Cliff notes on my prior answer list was related to operation Straight Line so hopefully well all have a chance to learn more about that if you dont already know about how horrible it is. Sorry. You are asking about organizations. Guest their website they can advise people of politicians dances . Guest that is a great question. The places i have always gone to get the best information about different policies in ways people can get involved in fighting back against criminalization, include the network they have a website that compares a lot of current campaigns that communities are pursuing as well as the immigrant Defense Project which has a specialization run criminalization would look at those places as ways to learn more of what committees are asking for. In terms of politicians, we are at a moment now where the field has narrowed. In the platforms of our two competitors are not what they should be. There is room for growth on one side. [laughter] there are groups right now that are trying to gather and collect the best practices. What people are hoping, particularly from the side camp is we hope there are a couple of different platforms around migrant justice and freedom that people are advocating for. I would look to those. I know several of the groups participate in coming up with those platforms. The National Immigrant Justice Center is another organization that is thought a lot about what that National Platform should look like. I would recommend going there. Host that last question for us is kind of ties into sits back with a political prose a little there other things youd recommend with the city Deportation Machine which i admit i have copy of i have not read yet. [laughter] think this is a spring for a lot of deeply informed topics. What are the recommendations would you recommend book wise for people who want to learn more . So theres a book coming out this month by John Washington called the dispossessed that focuses on asylum which i know is of interest from the chat screen who might be watching. So i definitely recommend that. I was just having a conversation today with erica lee who wrote america for americans, i think that is a great book to read. And there isnt migrating to prisons which is specifically about abolishing immigration immigration jail system, those are some of the books i would recommend. Theres really a wealth of information out there, hopefully that will create a blueprint for change or future administration. Host of course all of your writing. I was telling earlier that we regularly quote and cite her articles and all of our federal lawsuits because she has the information, thank you for everything you do to expose with the administration is doing. Guest just trying to keep on top of everything. Host thats a hard job. Thank you both so much for this conversation and for sticking with it. Thank you everybody for staying with us tonight to this excellent conversation. Even with technical difficulties rate i have one last question for you both in what are you reading during this time . Guest im a little between books right now i had not read any of the will fall trilogy so i devoured it in ten days. Probably too fast because now i feel i want to take a while before starting anything else because it was just really excellent fiction in my world anyway. I got advance copy so im working through that right now which is great. And sadly leading a lot of Court Decisions good and bad, hoping to see more good over the next few weeks. Absolutely. Thank you both so much again this was really, really excellent and definitely very timely. The prep sensation hat shows this has been exasperated by these times very thank you for evelyn in the audience your patronage is what is in this programming keeping our doors open. In Small Business like us really cannot continue functioning without the book sales to keep this open. Hit that big green button at the bottom and by this very excellent book, no justice in the shadows by alina you can also hit the follow button at the top near the politics and prose logos to be of future crowd casts. We thank you so much, we help you stay well, stay safe and we hope you stay well read. Thank you guys. This memorial day weekend on book tv, today at 4 00 p. M. Eastern foundation for liberty in american greatness founder and president nick adams on his book trump and churchill, defenders of western civilization. At 430 eastern Time Magazine National Political correspondent molly baltics about her latest book, pelosi which looks at the career of the speaker of the house of representatives nancy pelosi. And it 9 00 p. M. On after words, facebook cofounder chris hughes talks about his book, fair shot that his plan to reduce property and strengthen the middle class. Then on monday at 8 30 p. M. Eastern, bestselling thriller writer talks about his writing career and books on indepth. Watch book tv, this memorial day weekend on cspan2. So on her Author Interview program, after words, tim mccown beat cofounder of square had his thoughts on innovation heres a portion of that interview. Im a glass blower. Make stuff that nobody needs. I make art, that is stuff nobody needs. In fact in dcis object glass blowing at the park for the local cspan viewers if you been to Glen Oak Park 20 years ago i was a guy that taught you how to make a paperweight. The point is i was in my studio trying to sell a piece of glass and i lost the sale because i cannot take an American Express card. I was angry a lot this great windfall and i was talking to the lady come as a phone order and was talking one of these devices. I have this attitude toward devices like this which is like this device is a magic device it turns in anything i want but wanted to turn into a television becomes a television. A map, radio, will turn into that book. It will literally, tomorrow turn into that book if you want. It did not turn into a credit card machine. And so, i was angry but i was also motivated to fix that. So i called jack on that device i said lets make our iphones turn into credit cards. Thats what became square. s of the name of the book is innovation stack. What is it innovation stack . How to do learn about that from square . Guest in innovation stack is not something we knew about what we but it is probably the most powerful phenomenon i have seen in business. And we stumbled across it. The innovation stack is simply a way of interweaving inventions together. Sometimes very simple inventions but put enough of these together they start to take on their own life. They create new industries. So if you look throughout history, at the Great Industries that have started, almost always is an innovation stack at the beginning. I did not know any of this when i started square i went to building a novation stack i was no idea had this was happening. As a matter fact, i wrote this book and ive been sort of having people review it, like yourself. One of the greatest compliments i got was from a very successful entrepreneur hes interviewing me in the skys living room. Were in his living or has a painting on the wall, thats worth more than my house. I am like oh my god. So im all intimidated. And hes asking about the book and he finally said you know, i wish i would have known this when i was 20 years old. Im like me to it. Turns out theres this thing that happens. This process that can happen when you start to solve a perfect problem, something that is not been solved before because most of what we do is copying. In most of our tools and training and comfort is with solutions that exist. You get out of the world of copying, you can build something that is truly different. The process is different. It creates this thing called it innovation stack. If you build it innovation stack, at least in my studies your company will dominate the world. It will run whatever business. To watch the rest of his talk and find more episodes of after words, visit our website, booktv. Org and click on the after words tab near the top of the page. Joining us now on book tv is author nick adams. His sixth book is stressed out, here it is trump and churchill, defenders of western civilization. Mr. Adams President Trump mr. Georgia where they have in common customer so its great to be with you listen donald trump and Winston Churchill of a lot in common. When you look at both the men you would not think that to be the case. One was 5foot six and love to drink, the other is a sixfoot teat total