Transcripts For CSPAN2 William Darity And Kirsten Mullen From Here To Equality 20240713

There is a piece in the journal of the American General Association Appoints out the more than half of the covid19 cases in chicago, nearly 70 percent of the death, involve black individuals. Although blacks make up only 30 percent of the population. Theres a story in the front page of the Washington Post today about contrasting the intensive care unit in Northern Virginia which is largely empty with the overwhelmed the hospital and largely black county on the other side of washington dc. So although recreations is or has a long history. It is not directly related to covid19, it is same to me that covid19 puts the next hard on some of the issues in this book. Host a fun today is to put this into historical context. And also reference to jews in the state of israel, theyve done done by the. The u. S. Recreations to japaneseamericans who in turn during world war ii. For that we will start with a philosopher has been the director in berlin, she is the author of learning from the germans. Race and the memory of people. The book in the title suggests that what we can learn from the germans. Then we will turn to sanding kristin and talk about the new book, from here to eternity reparations for black americans in the 21st century. We wouldve been selling autographed copies of the books we were making his person. We cannot do that we can buy the book online at the unc website or at your local bookstores website. Sandy is an economist with a phd from mit. And shes a professor Public Policy of duke. It in person is a lecturers work focuses on race, on art and history and politics. They happen to be married to each other. Their book is really interesting. Is a sweeping look at American History going back to the early days of the country, reconstruction from the video, jim crow and the persistent discrimination of the modern era. In the acute differences in wealth between blacks and whites and they tilt along a fascinating tale of early debate about preparations for slaves. The whole 40 acres of a story in all of that predict all of that is very important. But my mentors, taught me you cannot know what youre going if you dont know where you have been. The book really goes beyond that to make the case for program of acknowledgment addressing closure for agreements injustices. Thats what reparation is. Questions were raised by skeptics, they sketch out the size shape and form of reparations. But they say the congress should consider. Each of our speakers as a scholar. These rings a particular personal perspective to the discussion like this one. One is a white woman who came of age during the Civil Rights Era and shes a jewish woman spent much of her life in berlin. Cindy is the son of the first man to get a doctorate from the university of North Carolina preventers spent half of his life enters jim crow. And chris is the greatgranddaughter of a man walker who was born into slavery. These are both scholarly and personal issues for us. You can pose pose questions by email or in twitter with the f hte, from here to equality. Or in reparations and with that i wanted turn the screen over susan enjoins us from berlin. Lets just start by saying that reparations in germany are part of the much bigger concept. Susan and along compound words, they have several, and translate it as working off the past in the way that you might work off of debt. In fact, the words guilt is almost identical in german. We dont even have a concept that would correspond to this larger, much larger idea which is, and david you said, if you dont know what youre going if you dont know where you have been. The idea that you cannot go forward if you dont take a serious look about your past, and make some things for the crimes and evils misdemeanors that were commended. They will hunt you. And they will hunt you a 460 years you can see in the United States. The cases always made by starting with the germany example because germany really was the first nation in the world to pay reparations voluntarily. And of course the case when words were lost the victorious armies would drag off whatever they wanted. But germany was the first nation ever to voluntarily give up money as atonement, as recompense for the evil they had brought. People who are opponents of american reparations for slavery and neo slavery which is terribly important that one realizes that slavery didnt entirely stop in 1965. Just changed form. People are opposed to that like to point to the differences between the german case in the american case. Of course every historical case is different. There is no denying that but what i think might be most important to talk about is something that the german case and the american case are very much in common which is that the germans, neither the germans or the white americans were in favor of paying reparations at all. In fact much better in america now than they were in 1953 in germany. Investment germany or stayed paid the reparations to the state of it is reported 11 percent of the german people supported those payments. We are now up to 29 percent of the entire country. Its very important to realize that you need both leadership. You need push for my community. It isnt automatic so that the objection of the first objection that comes up to reparations, in america is where so many people are against it. Guess what. Even more people were against that in germany. What we tend not to realize looking at germany from the outside, is that instead of falling on their knees and realizing what orders they had committed which of course now it is painted and remembered it to the rest of the world, the germans didnt think of themselves as criminals. They thought of themselves as the wars worst victims. Their cities had been burned, the men were killed, or imprisoned. There was hunger, there was disease. Everyone was impoverished. On top of that, those damn yankees were trying to tell them that the world was all the fault. Theres a moment when i was researching and doing research for my book when i realized you know who they sound like, the defenders of the lost cause. Weve heard all of this before. You are the worst victims. And not the perpetrators into the state you can read all kinds of people know in america, they truly believe that the war was not to thes fault and slavery was not the thing that they were fighting for. So it took a relatively long time even for the german nation to stand up to its guilt and to start paying its debts. Note german reparations can be seen in three parts. Of which i think will link the last is relevant to the american case. The first was in east germany after the war was over. The soviet union said lets talk a lot of industrial plants, railroads, electronic equipment, as reparation for the devastation that the german army had reaped on the soviet union all of the way from moscow. There were 27 million citizens of the soviet union died in the civil war. So that was in east germany. It is interesting is that because of the political education there, the germans i know dont resent the reparations. They seem to feel they were there. The second wave of recreations was or beginning 1952 and that was the result of the negotiations between the first west german Prime Minister and david the first israel the Prime Minister. They were very controversial. The majority of people in both nations were actually against them. And they went through very hard negotiations to see what they should be in exactly how they should be calculated. I know that were going to be told how they will be the recreations to be calculated today. Its a really and interesting question and it was back then. In paying reparations to jews who had been victims of the holocaust or the state of his zero as a body, the germans made a fairly awful bargain which is that they would actually engage in what i call this attempt to actually look at the history and look at the past and acknowledge what had been done. It was kind of well we will pay for it and in exchange, dont point your finger to see how many old we have in our government. Dont ask us to look at the Police Department store schools are the universities. Dont ask us to do anything more. That was a mistake that persisted for a very long time. Reparations were paid in some reparations are still continui continuing. But in 1998, there was a third wave which i think could actually be a model for the United States. We had a progressive government that was selected and 98. The combination of a coalition of the social democrats in the wings. In one of the things that they decided to do was to get payment for those slave laborers are still alive but had not fallen under any of the other categories that got paid. Largely because they were living in eastern europe. And what was interesting about this is that the foundation that was created, was called memory responsibility in future. And one of the things that they put money into is actually a project and initiatives to remember what happened. So very much in contrast to the first on the almost 50 years of reprobation a misprint in the other thing that i think was really important as this is a joint foundation of the German Government and german industry that profited from slave labor. I believe, although ive not had a chance to read the book yet but i believe just from the first time sandy and i met. The discussion that he believes reparations should be solely paid by the u. S. Governments. I think this is a strong argument to be made for industry to make serious contributions because there are companies that are there to the companies that profited from slave labor even going into Insurance Companies today. So i think a joint fund of industry and government which has worked quite well in germany could be a really good model for the United States to follow. Along with the sense that cash is important. Dont get me wrong. It is inherently important but that important to remember what it is we are paying for in particular the idea that in 1865, but forms of it permeated legally, the United States towards up until you can argue about whether it stopped already. Im not sure is mentioned rightly that africanamericans are still suffering disproportionately from the coronavirus. But in any case, these are forms of oppression that white people in particular that i can also speak for myself before i began to do this research, need to be reminded of along with the just. Host thank you very much now i would like to turn this screen of our two North Carolina people. Thank you. Thank you to the institution and to susan. We also tip our hats to our collaborators. For black americans in the 21st century and essentially to all of you who are participating in this event here in person and across the globe. As david said, the pandemic was not on the radar. We realize the book launch is insignificant in this context. We are grateful for this time. We will first talk about something. My father was the first to use the fact known black phd recipient and that North Carolina. Many years later, he was asked whether or not he thought it was wonderful that he was the first recipient and his response was will know it is terrible. Terrible it took that long for somebody to be the first black recipient of with a phd from the university of North Carolina. William he received his 1963 and his point was there is a long history and many blocks from opportunities like that. This reflected in the conversation that we pursuant about. As david mentioned, the current access relative black mortality from the coronavirus, is another indicator of the scope of the kinds of harms and damages the continue to be inflicted on the blacks. Reparations in the pandemic, is a topic that kristin and i wrote back about a week ago in philadelphia in which we argued that but pandemic itself, reinforces the intensity of the case for black reparations for the descendents of the United States slavery. In the philadelphia article, we talk about the excess mortalities. With the pandemic. I would like to provide additional examples. In our own state of North Carolina, black cost about 22 percent of the population. But blacks are 32 percent of the confirmed cases of the coronavirus and 44 percent of the state deaths. In louisiana, as another example, blacks constitute approximately 32 percent of that states population but 70 percent of the mortalities associated with the virus. One of the reasons for this excess mortality. The first i think is the occupational distribution in the United States. Our blacks have jobs that we would describe as being in a missionary or care category. And it require an intensive degree of personal contact and personal service activities. So that increases significantly the risk of exposure to the virus read in addition, because of the long trajectories of racial inequalities in the United States, which affect us, blacks have disproportionate amount of preexisting conditions that create greater vulnerability to this disease including asthma, diabetes, hypertension and other variations of heart disease. But there is a fundamental and this is the third point. There is a fundamental preexisting condition which explains the kinds of disparities that we are building out predict that is the resource debt which is back countered by the black and white wealth gap. While in the inequality in the United States can be described as blacks represent approximately 13 percent of the United States population. But possess 2. 6 percent of the nations wealth. That translates into roughly an 800,000 gap in net worth on average per household. From our perspective, a clear objective of reparations for black americans in the u. S. Slavery, must be in the emanation of the racial belts gap. So that is the starting point for much of the analysis that we pursue in the pages of inequality. Kirsten i would like to read from the introduction of the book. Standing at the crossroads, and i begin by reading the first part of this. William this is actually similar that what you mentioned from your former advisor. This is actually from ella baker, the black political activist where she said, in order to see where we are going, we not only must see where we have been but we must also understand where we have been. Kirsten the world has never seen any people turned loose with much destitution with 4 million slaves of the south. They were free without land to cultivate and as a consequence, died in such numbers as to awaken the help of their enemies that they would soon disappear. William the conversations today, with some of the passages of the opening portions of this i would like to start by reading from the first page of the book. Racism and discrimination have professionally crippled the black economic opportunities. As several historic moments the trajectory of racial inequality that has been altered dramatically by each juncture, the way that chazen does not read to a just and fair america. The formation of the republic provided the critical moment when blacks might have been granted freedom and admitted to full citizenship. The civil war and reconstruction era, each offered opening to produce a true democracy inclusive of black americans. As a new deal project the g. I. Bill foley included blacks, the nation would have widened the window of opportunity to achieve an equitable future. Passage of civil rights legislation in the might have unlocked the door for america to eradicate racism. However, as none of these sports justice taken. The book primarily about the economic divide between oxen white americans. How he came to be and eliminated. Specifically we contend a suitably designed programmable recreations include the device. Back reparation can place american squarely on the path to racial equality. Kirsten if the been used in the United States and throughout the world for the grievous injustices. These include the u. S. Government americans unjustly incarcerated. During world war ii. The German Government for victims of the holocaust. In the canadian government conversations to individual went Indigenous People who have been removed forcibly from their families. Reversing the effective slavery for newly anticipated channel was the goal of several plans put into action during and immediately following the civil war. Once a countrys earliest efforts to radically alter black Economic Conditions was the federal governments post civil war plan to give at least 48 abandoned and confiscated land to each formally enslaved family for. Or 10 acres per person. Also maintained that this land, newly freed men and women in the 19th century was the figment of the black imagination. The records confirmed that it was inscribed in federal legislation. In fact, the allocation activated in 1855, the 40 acres for formally slight enslaved africanamericans, the federal government had developed and assigned land. The idea of reparations could be an effective method of addressing effective slavery and white supremacy. It has a long history. Both in and out of discourse of the national policy. Reparations are timely today as they were in the 1860s. The ultimate goal from here to equality is to help the human and to promote reparations for African Americans is the final chapter of this book shows there are several mechanisms for reversing inequalities between black and whites and overcome the frequent reactions essences and practical right real equality is the goal. William a program of acknowledgment, we address an enclosure for a grievous injustice. Where African Americans are concerned with the remiss injustices that make the case for reparations include slavery, real segregation or jim crow and on going discrimination. Arc, arc, the acronym that stands for the closure. Characterizes three essential elements of the Reparations Program that we are advocating. Take acknowledgment, closure, components of any effective reparations process. Acknowledgment involves recognition and admission of the law by the perpetrators or beneficiaries of the injustice. For africanamericans, this means the receipt of an apology. On the partisan American People as a whole. National active declaration has been committed, a great wrong. Acknowledgment requires those who benefited from the exercise of the atrocities to recognize the advantages that they gain in commitments to them selves to the cause of regress. And it can potentially take two forms. Not necessarily restitution or atonement. Restitution is the restoration of the survivors to the conditions before the injustice occurred. Or to a condition that they might have had the injustice not taken his place. Of course, it is impossible to restore those who were enslaved to a condition preceding their enslavement. Not only because those who were enslaved are now deceased, but also because many thousands were born into slavery. But it is possible to lose their descendents to a more equitable position that the status that they wouldve obtained in the absence of the injustice. Atonement is now a form of regress occurred when perpetrators or beneficiaries made conditions of forgiveness that are acceptable to the victims. Achieving these elements of the programs requires negotiations between those who were wronged in the wrongdoers. There is no existing mechanism for establishing when africanamericans collectively will have reached an agreement that sufficient steps have been taken to justify forgiveness. Consequently atonement is difficult to accomplish. That is why we treat restitution is the appropriate form of regress. And we have clear metrics for determining when the restitution has been received. And we do not have the same for atonement. Specifically, restitution for africanamericans, would eliminate Racial Disparities in wealth income, education, sentencing and incarceration, for political participation and subsequent opportunities to engage in American Social life. Whites and blacks will come to terms over the past and confront the president and unite to create a new entrance for the United States of america. I would like to speak briefly to several arguments raised in opposition to reparation. First is the charge that we refer to a slavery reparations it is a fulcrum for those grievous injustices that constitute the case of the american descendents of slavery but black people were not admitted to full citizenship. In Chronological Order the charges that we make our slavery and jim crow and ongoing discrimination the case we are making for all three of these injustices so another point of opposition why didnt black america or america in general already pay its debt for its debt for slavery and bled waging a civil war which was also emancipation . One of the things from the project i learned the conference chair said i believe there should be reparations the students of American History he said reparations were paid in the lives of 600,000 americans who fell on both sides in the civil war. Okay failing to acknowledge half of those fighting the confederates were fighting to maintain slavery not to and it to free those not because they were liberated but they were freed because the union army forces which included more than 180,000 black men and women won the war. Some content they had already received preparations before the obama election. Senate and Majority Leader Mitch Mcconnell made the claim even though the majority of white americans voted against obama and 90 percent black and 31 percent with a huge wealth gap which we do advise, for all of those effects did not significantly move the needle. So another comment that we hear that so long ago why do we keep bringing this up . Because plantations across the American South is very big business but all too often the extensional plaque presence on those are downplayed as the nine or told that they were reunited by disassociation and the notion that slavery is not so distant if you look at the institution of the generational standpoint so i will read another passage from our book about an amazing woman whom i met five years ago on page 241 so a man with an intellect more than half a century after slavery ended the divisions of authority continued to exert power over blacks they no longer could be bought or sold like livestock that they did not enjoy the same life as white and they could be subjected to harm it any time. King, a man with intellect and survival instinct emerge from the shadow of slavery only to find his successful business made him a target for whites and so to avoid him at every turn so the dispatcher in texas refused to allow his temper onto the train for delivery in 1924 and confronted the dispatcher then argued in the dispatcher told him he would kill him if he continued to press the case he replied then you better kill me quick because if you dont i will kill you before i hit the ground. The dispatcher did not act on his threat. On january 14, 1865, 165 years ago to be declared illegal with the 13th amendment king conferred with the parents and siblings after the altercation with the dispatcher and decided the best option was to move his family to oklahoma. So then to become the first black faculty member hired at chapel hill and told one and says social work at 101 years of age she recently urged us to finish the book. That descendent of a daughter of a slave is one generation removed from slavery. Another whose father elisha was born in slaved and later became a physician and his daughter ruth became active in the hometown of cleveland but we remember her especially because the institution with obama and Michelle Obama to ring the bell at the dedication in septembe september 2016 and then for the First Baptist Church Founded in 1876 and if we wait long enough all black americans his parents were in slaved and all who lived through racial apartheid will have died. That the atrocities keep coming and that is why we need a program for bike americans. And then to get some numbers on the idea of black lives matter. The black lives Matter Movement that is an important effort to spark the social changes that are essential in the United States, the black lives Matter Movement never says what that black lives matter is so we decided we waited provides estimates so the following from page 219 the message of the black lives matter to encapsulates the racialized industry on injuries but the many ways that it has been devalued and unprotected in the United States the discount rate of black humanity has been enormous a variety of metrics and even at the and the jim crow they are assigned approximately 30 percent that of white lives. And for example as early as the 18 forties to ensure whites from anywhere to 5000 while in slaved blacks typically were insured on behalf of their owners for 400 and sometimes as little as 200 that has been estimated in 1928 there was one hospital bed for every 139 white americans but only one for every 1941. Indicating the average black life was only 7 percent of the average. During the jim crow years the gap in the Capital Expenditures is a powerful index of the magnitude of the discount rate and so in 1939, 1940 those expenditures there are three times for the black students and that was 30 percent and with per pupil expenditures were seven times greater suggesting in mississippi at that time a young black life was worth 15 percent of a young white life and in 1912 a cluster of counties spent 32 cents on black students education per every 15 spent on my students education that that life was worth an incredible 4700 percent more than a black youth life. The estimated differences for black and white students is reduced substantially all the with 13 percent gap remains. Unfortunately the narrowing of the gap was a profound racial gap in curriculum and instruction of the segregated schools. The disparity of black students in gifted and talented programs has a marked indicator of the devaluation of black youth from the educational system. Black students constitute 40 percent of americas Public Schools but only 26 percent of the students enrolled in gifted and talented programs. The average black child is 66 percent less likely to be referred to gifted math and reading than the white classmates. That representation of black children in overrepresentation of white children in gifted education suggests black youth are assigned a value of less than 40 percent of the white child in the nation schools. Moreover that gap in the rates at which blacks and whites are killed in Police Shootings has another contemporary message and there are some escalated magnitudes and for example killed by the police at three times the rate this would imply they are worth one third. The discriminatory exposure of black children to lead poisoning and those used for experimental medicine dash to estimate how heavy the discount rate continues to be on black lives. We will stop her readings there. And open the door for questions. Thank you to susan and sandy and kirsten. You do a good job in the book and you are well equipped to handle some of the things that people hear from those that are uncomfortable with reparations way of a number of questions about that and then put a number to you of the practicality. What you say to people that say it is unfair for white americans whose ancestors never owned slaves the children of immigrants in the us in the 20th and 21st century to pay reparations to the descendents of slaves . How do you answer that . The response to the question concerning the obligation or responsibility of race and immigrants has two forms. The first, the individual immigrates to a countr country, immigrating to the history and obligations. The one who newly arrived in a country that has the characteristics as a consequence of the exploitation of black labor over a number of years it is devoid of that historical obligation. But let me say we dont view that Reparations Program individually, it is National Obligation and responsibility and that is why we place the onus of the status of the culpable party on the federal government. But this is the first type of argument. The second that is related is the notion of the reasons why individuals have come to the United States. Presumably because it has attributes that are attracted to them. Those are usually linked to the degree of Economic Development in the United States and that the us Economic Development is heavily linked to enslavement and the ways in which black labor is exploited in the jim crow. Area then there is a benefit for those who are more recent immigrants from coming to the United States associated with the historical exploitation of black americans. For those who were not slaveowning families. Our research is that is not true. And then to conduct their own investigation. Slavery and slaveholding were direct and intimate part of white americans with that former confederacy and those slaveholding families have a wider presence and prevalence slavery truly was a family affair. And at the National Level 8 percent allamerican families with at least one slave. And the National Percentage on those non Southern States and 1860 and with the contrast with that pattern and in 1861 to establish the virginia and North Carolina. And 29 percent and those remaining five states of 34 percent or higher keeping a staggering rate in South Carolina and mississippi respectively. With that engagement of slave ownership is a proportion of those that were members of slaveholding families and those in 1861 quarter of those that owned at least one slave. And those well above 30 percent in georgia, alabama, louisiana with 55 and 57 percent in South Carolina respectively. And with that institution. One of the other things we point out in the book from slaveholding families. To have a strong economic tie whether individuals slur on serve as slave catchers or serve as and then to be engaged in one of the other things that we point out in the book is individuals might have a Stronger Economic tie to those that serve as slave catchers whether individuals that served as managers on plantations so there was a set of what we might call backward and forward closely connected and there was a significant benefit from the system of slavery and those from the northern states and in the most pronounced way in new york and new york city itself and then to be closely tied to the cotton sector and then the effects of the slavery system across many families in the United States. And that reparations is not restricted to take into account the jim crow. With discrimination and stigmatization and individuals like the Senate Majority leader who says present at the time of slavery is disingenuous because he was alive during the jim crow area. So there is some questions but the gist of it is that the birth is remarkably interesting with discussions of how to compensate the slaves immediately after the civil war. But there is a sense of what you point out with those japanese americans but that much time has passed with questions of redres redress. So what counts is not just chattel slavery that legal discrimination called the eager terror. But with a group of clergymen with a petition to carry truman to the white house asking for a federal bill against lynching i thought that was murder and then to prosecute what was taken and truman told a group of clergymen with the federal bill against lynching because it was politically opportune. Or there were other forms of neo slavery. That books like slavery and it is a terrific book or by stephenson. But is slavery really had ended and it had worked like authorize my 40 acres and a mule just paid for all the wealth that the slaves had created, then maybe you would have an argument but just to stay in here to point out it just didnt and they are. There is a huge gap and also not until fairly recently. But yes jim crowe everybody knew it. For what was done and what is a part tied as kristin put it or the age of racial terror. You vaguely knew about something called jim crow and of course i grew up in the middle of the civil rights movement. But the depth to which slavery continued with the effects is something we simply did not know. So if you actually look and say that legal discrimination in the United States ended with the Civil Rights Act and the end of redlining, this isnt to say it is oppression and humiliation and murder but lets just say the legal and did. That is 50 years ago. And that is the about the time it took for germany not the reparations that were paid just after the war but the ones that were paid in the year 2000 really with a full heart and recognition that this is what we need to do to make up for our history. I know people talk about the historical differences or those differences but, historical distances but we dont know enough about the history of slavery and i did not until i began to research it. So talk about the racial wealth gap we talk about eligible recipients that we identify as follows that they are criteria for eligibility the first they have to demonstrate he or she or they had an ancestor that was enslaved in the United States. At least one ancestor but the second criteria an individual will have to show for at least 12 years before the adoption of the Reparations Program or the the adoption of a Study Commission for a Reparations Program, they would have had to self identified as black or negro or africanamerican. There is a lineage standard that is associated with a connection to the United States slavery. And there is the identity standard with that connection to the black community of the United States. But because with those lingering effects of slavery and discrimination. Remember when president obama was running the first time and there is a question if he was black enough or mixedrace and said trying to get a cab in manhattan nobody says who is that mixed race guide. s a major criterion to have an ancestor like president obama doesnt need reparations but if someone else. But that is not predicated if it is needed we dont examine the economic status of jewish victims of the holocaust at the moment they received payment that wasnt an issue. It is a moral obligation to provide regardless. Shes asking why do you exclude people like barack obama who are black who may have suffered discrimination formation of the republic so not enslaved after 1776. Is not entirely accurate. However the premise is that there is a denial of compensation at the end of the civil war. And that is associated with the failure to provide the promise for the acre land grab. And those that are beneficiaries of the Reparations Program thats the first. Second, with those voluntary immigrants to the United States not the compulsory immigrants to say i have incurred a certain type of harm that cannot be treated that i deserve some form of reparations. How can you presumably require or request reparations for the races of you experienced . Between ten and 12 trillion is a lot of money even in america. How do you think where this money should come from . Particularly in the context whatever research on resources we had before covid19 we are spending them now to deal with this crisis. Where will the money come from and what about the pandemic figure into your thinking . But the remarkable speed the country came up with whether we think the money is used wisely. The remarkable speed and similarly to come up with funds during the Great Recession is actually an indicator that has a tremendous capacity to fund virtually anything it desires. The ultimate barrier to additional public spending is the inflation effect so we would have to do the Reparations Program in a principled way to avoid the inflation risk but apart from that the government can purchase or spend whatever it wants to do. And with that oneshot allocation of ten or 12 trillion we suggest you could space that with the goal to make sure you eliminated over the course of a decade. And to talk about allocations between one and 2 trillion which is not out of the scope that is entirely manageable by the federal government. Is interesting to see the questions that you have dealt with after reading the book. How do you think of the responsibilities of institutions . In particular higher education. And also states regarding the rosewood massacre. And with those colleges and universities . And text rising black americans for slavery so in addition maybe and changing curriculum of the name white supremacist off the building. We went to see those institutions instead form a coalition to Lobby Congress for reparations for black americans. We would like to see them pretty much work. North carolina decided to do just that to help form a coalition, municipalities, any organizations that will be in the groups to focus its a terrific idea but also these individual efforts of georgetown about 15000 black americans and to talk about the possibility of the treatment and admission. 400,000 bond of those of the jesuit soul. And 38000 a piece or Something Like that. So if they were connected what we need is a fluid on holistic program. Why do you think giving money to individuals is the way to go rather than creating institutions and programs that might succeed to narrow the wealth gap . They will not change the wealth gap and our mind. This is a key determinant what we are trying to what can be measured to the enslaved people. You can create all kinds of institutions we have all kinds of institutions that the indifference of these wealth outcomes. And i word add it is vital those individuals who are members of the communities that should be receiving reparations and they should have discretion over use of the funds. And what the Us Government should do is support repatriation for with africanamericans to the african continent. That there is a significant number of black americans to choose that option rather than staying in the United States to achieve full citizenship and full participation. But if there are, they could opt to use the funds for that purpose. Its a matter of individual discretion that has to be validated by a Reparations Program. It is interesting in the other cases of reparations we have been talking about, the german payments to victims of the holocaust in the United States governments to japanese americans, monetary payments were made but nobody seems to be concerned about that the way they are concerned about the monetary payments. One questioner at the university of new mexico asks what you think about Public Memorials and how they can play a role and those efforts of those various points of history to whitewash history and eliminate the black presence and to alter textbooks for children and College Students to actually receive the actual history of our country we made a trip to charleston at the Confederate Museum and read every single caption that only one mention the word slave. And a very focused effort and to create this memory and thats line of the difficulties because these were educated and that the primary documents are not there and stays in libraries across the country and then to do that research and the textbooks and still 20 or 30 years old. And then for the opportunities and to seek their fortune by coming to the us. And with the significance of the memory project in germany with respect to the holocaust and to mention this in the context of the Reparations Program should achieve across from the monetary payments that is to say providing americans with an accurate story of reconstruction and reversing the lives embedded in the lost cause so that memory dimension is critical in this type of reparations. You have anything to add to that . No. Let me ask one final question. As i mentioned a number of time times, you stand on the shoulders of people who have tried so hard to get reparations in some form. I cannot find the story im looking for so i hope they give you enough clues. And those that were petitioning. And with that latter part of the 19th century into establishing movement and pension funds. But then the United States government was not enthusiastic about the efforts and then convicted has to go to jail for a while but thats the same type of charges brought against Marcus Garvey in the early part of the 20th century to undermine his movement as this indicates there were followers which is a very interesting set and she was quite remarkable. One of the problems we have in this country as a consequence not have being told the truth about her history and was told immediately after the civil war but that the history was change changed. But what you end up with is celebrating the confederacy where serving in the military and to raise the Confederate Flag and the goal for site so to be in public spaces and to be pulled up short and the manuscripts i was driving down the new jersey turnpike and the song can that on the radio and then that stand up person during the civil rights movement. Somebody who has decent credentials are not in question. And without even speaking about it its actually analogy for the confederacy and southerners it is progressive folks not really but their singing along to because that confederacy is covered with the myth of magnolias and spanish moss that looks great and with that and those who would consciously deny want any part of the confederac confederacy. Thank you for joining us in berlin and i owe you all lunch in washington and then particularly as you can tell those historical nuggets are so interesting and resonate so much and all of you who joined in that ask questions and then you just want to wash it again the videos on the website. Have a good day. North america largest industry conference book expo will offer a series of Online Events next week all programs will be hosted on their Facebook Page entry to the public. Next month bronx festival will take place online on june 6th and going from 24 through 26 book tv will continue to bring new programs and publishing news also watch all of the archived programs anytime book tv. Org. I am an adjunct fellow at the Manhattan Institute i think all of you for taking the time and the general membership im so sorry we cannot all be together in person but in the meantime its nice to connect this way. And then to put it together virtual content rolling out the next few months. 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